Transcript
Plant People: What up, true leaves?
Brett: Greetings.
Plant People: Great.
Jessica : Hello.
Plant People: Good riddance.
Jessica : I thought you did like the Star Trek sign right there.
Plant People: He's got his like theater to serious voice.
Jessica : What did you say?
Brett: I come in peace.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: um Well, ah you may be listening to this and have had your first. Frost, uh What's I know what's funny it's funny.
Brett: ah
Jessica : And I'm done.
Plant People: I've been seen as it's been going around flower worlds because there's a lot of flower stuff in the Pacific Northwest. There's a lot of horticulture in the Pacific Northwest, but a lot of big flower farms out there. And they had their first.
Plant People: like freeze frost before like a lot of the northern like six five uh zone uh zone people did and so that everyone's like oh my gosh this never happens we have dahlias this late and everybody in pacific northwest is brown and mushy and it's kind of crazy so you may be listening to this and everything outside is brown and mushy and to that i say Let it rest.
Plant People: And I hope that you also find rest in that. um mushiness.
Brett: i saw I saw it projected as much as a... 54 degree Fahrenheit swing in less than a week in St. Louis. ah like from 90 something, 94 to, I guess, yeah, 94 to. Uh... on Monday to 40 degrees. the following Sunday.
Jessica : wow
Brett: That's pretty crazy.
Jessica : That is crazy.
Plant People: We're going to we're going to have one here this week or almost that bad 80.
Jessica : Mm -hmm.
Plant People: what is it going to be 88 today and 33 predicted and um Let's see, 88 on Wednesday, low of 33 on Saturday, I think.
Brett: Yeah, 55.
Plant People: broad Friday or Saturday.
Brett: Damn.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah. Cool.
Brett: That's a swing.
Plant People: Yeah, nature. um It's my head is going to explode with the sinus pressure.
Jessica : i'm
Jessica : I'm excited about it I think we still have like, like, yeah, I've been prepping already pulled the sweet potatoes out of the ground.
Plant People: Just because I'm ready.
Jessica : I think we still have lots of peppers hanging on. My father -in -law was like, I'm going to the farmer's market. And we're like, what are you taking? He's like peppers because they're still kicking it.
Jessica : They're still going strong. and
Plant People: Spray program has been solid on the peppers this year.
Jessica : Yeah. they They don't even, I think i think the tomato the tomatoes are already done because we they reached that point where they're like, nope. No more fungicides.
Plant People: You just don't want to anymore, too.
Jessica : And.
Plant People: I've just been looking at him and I'm like, I don't care about you anymore. i don't care
Jessica : And then they just kind of dissolve in like a week once you stop.
Plant People: yeah
Jessica : So. It is what it is when it comes to tomato production in Kentucky.
Plant People: it is Yes.
Plant People: That's fine. You know what? And I'm thinking positively because I'm at... the point of the year right where sometimes you're just as a farmer you're wishing for the frost because you're just done with it for the year you're like i just please mother nature come take this because i don't want to do it anymore but i'm not I'm like...
Plant People: Half and half. Like I'm not. I'm like, it's fine if it comes, it's fine if it doesn't. um And I feel like that's a really, that's ah's a good healthy place for my brain to be this year. I'm pretty proud of that. So if you have not, if you're not feeling that way, maybe this is the time to make a note so that we can feel better this time next year.
Plant People: And that is mental health with Alexis.
Jessica : yeah
Plant People: ah
Jessica : Good one. I think if you have a little play garden like we do, like i like normally I'm like, I'm ready for it to all die at this point.
Plant People: Exactly.
Jessica : But now we have our play garden and everybody's invested in those carrots because the carrots are taken off and our kale is taken off. So everyone is excited about that.
Plant People: Mmm.
Jessica : Planting lots of garlic. Very excited.
Plant People: Yes, I gotta get on that.
Jessica : If at all.
Plant People: but
Jessica : survives I may have planted 60 things of garlic. So... I will give you some garlic. Next summer. if It all surprised me.
Plant People: Garlic braiding ah tasks.
Brett: did i tell you Did I tell you guys that I make black garlic?
Plant People: Yes, but we are not.
Jessica : Yes.
Plant People: ah You did?
Jessica : Really?
Plant People: I just got a black garlic cheese in the mail. I'm very excited about.
Brett: It's like... um
Jessica : Please explain.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: So you you take garlic. And you wrap it. um in foil and in seal it up in some way you can either use plastic wrap or whatever And then you put it in some sort of ah either a dehydrator or a heated... thing of some sort.
Brett: like at like 140 for like three weeks.
Jessica : Oh.
Brett: And it. ah It dehydrates it, but it also... does a like Maillard reaction. um So it like. It's like not caramelized, but like sort of like caramelized. And and the the cloves themselves are like. jet black.
Brett: Um, through and through and it's much more intense flavor it's more
Plant People: Huh.
Plant People: Yeah. It's a Delica scene for sure.
Brett: Umami, it's yeah.
Plant People: right
Brett: That's all that.
Jessica : Yeah. We have purchased it before.
Plant People: Oh.
Jessica : from the grocery store. But I thought it was like... some crazy variety of garlic that...
Brett: Yeah, no, just regular old garlic
Jessica : Well now.
Plant People: Oh, what so what do you put it in for three weeks?
Jessica : Now that can be a project.
Plant People: That's that's a long time to have something.
Brett: A dehydrator, a heated dehydrator.
Plant People: A dehydrated.
Brett: Yeah.
Jessica : Okay.
Brett: And whatever room that you're putting it in is going to smell so strongly of garlic for like. A while.
Plant People: No wonder it's so expensive. It takes a long time with a lot of energy. That makes sense.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting.
Brett: inch Anyway, anyway.
Plant People: wil we
Brett: um So, yeah, I thought maybe today we could talk through.
Plant People: We'll report back.
Brett: um I recently did with along with Savannah and some of our friends from the Food Connection and the Organic Association Kentucky did a. presentation about. marketing channels and kind of growing in marketing channels and scaling up.
Brett: through Those. And so... I thought maybe I would share the way that we did it was we. we The CCD team kind of covered some of the trends and things that we're seeing in some of these channels.
Brett: Those include things like K -12, selling to K -12 schools, retail, like so selling to someone who then sells at retail. salon director restaurants, collaborative CSA.
Brett: as well as things like distributors. um colleges and universities and other institutions hospitals other food service that kind of stuff so
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: um those are the channels and so i i thought i would just cover um we covered the the trends and then our friends from the food connection talked about some of the people in out in the world that they have been helping uh navigate those and some of the things that they've seen from the field and so i'll just cover the stuff that that i talked about and if you want to know more about this or check in with the food connection folks we did have a check out you can check out a recent episode with brandy button johnson who joined us to talk but we could get beau and emily on here to chat um if you're if that's something of interest so
Plant People: Mhm.
Brett: um Do you all have a place you want to, you have a market channel you're most interested in, most keen to hear and talk about?
Plant People: Jessica?
Jessica : oh
Plant People: jessica Jessica and I both have a little experience with... Grocery
Brett: Okay.
Plant People: Um. Yeah, like local grocery is very different from big commercial grocery too, so.
Brett: Cool.
Jessica : Oh yes. I was like trying to think, I was like, what experience do we have?
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: Jessica was like, do I? i don't What are you talking about?
Jessica : and They're like, oh, wait. Yes, we do.
Plant People: Yes we do.
Brett: Yeah, so on the on the consumer level, a couple of things that... um from a actual Kentucky. ah Let's see. Sorry, this is this is not Kentucky data.
Brett: This was a larger data set, but the ah local food.
Plant People: Mm -hmm.
Brett: And it has become this major lifestyle trend that has grown among millennials and Gen Z folks. And 91 % of people said. that locally grown produce was at least somewhat. important to them.
Brett: Um, and i think that that's kind of interesting. I'm curious what you all think. Does that strike you as surprising or are you skeptical or are you hopeful? What do you, what do you think?
Plant People: I've. I always... wonder about like questions like that because I mean it is valuable to know that there is like an interest and it's not just a you know nobody cares about this like like we don't need to pursue it but it's also kind of like well yeah i'm i'm somewhat interested or it's somewhat important for a lot of things but like where do i put my money where my mouth is kind of is more
Brett: Right.
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: the question i always have yeah i mean it's good to know that we're not like totally off basis, but it's like.
Jessica : It's...
Plant People: Well, yeah. I mean, that's like saying that, you know. Puppies are, 91 % of people think puppies are somewhat cute. like ah i What?
Jessica : right It's kind of...
Brett: Yeah. Well, what's been your what's been your. olds Oh, sorry. Sorry, Jessica.
Jessica : I said, I have to try to think like. you know, to me, I'm like, oh yeah, that's important, but I'm in that world. So a lot of times I have to, and then like.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : A lot of the people I associate with or my friends are also in that world.
Plant People: Right. I'm in a bubble.
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: Yeah, I'm in a bubble. Yeah.
Jessica : um So that's the thing I got really got to think about, like of those friends. that I have who are not like in that farming.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : world or like.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : you know Try to think about it that way. What would somebody who lives maybe in an urban... area. You know, are they thinking that is really important to them or are they thinking? currently in this climate, how can I feed my family?
Plant People: Mm -hmm
Jessica : in the most cost -efficient way right like so trying to think of it that way
Plant People: It can still be important to them, but are they going to actually spend their money on it yet?
Jessica : It could be, but... but Yeah, but the reality of it, what can they do during this?
Plant People: Yeah. yeah
Jessica : ah current environment.
Plant People: Any environment.
Jessica : Take care. any environment to feed themselves and their family.
Plant People: ah
Brett: Heh.
Brett: Yeah. Well, so on the on the retailer side, the people who are buying the produce. um There was a... This. ah Survey. Initiative done by the this.
Brett: paper called The Packer, which is kind of like the Wall Street Journal of the produce industry is how I would describe it. and they did this thing about sustainability and local is tied in with sustainability in their in their thing and they said that 70 % of the folks who responded, this is retailers, said that increasing that they had increased their sourcing of local and regional produce.
Brett: And in the process of doing that, they have seen some higher costs associated with that.
Plant People: Mhm.
Brett: But the tradeoff and the positive is that their supply reliability has been higher. This is something we saw throughout COVID that like.
Plant People: Ciao. Mm hmm.
Brett: These supply chains can be kind of fragile and with...
Jessica : Mm hmm.
Brett: different political and environmental and just normal seasonal yeah trade all these things
Plant People: Mm hmm. trade and...
Brett: Um, And eve but but. So that, uh, the 52 said that they saw higher costs but 26 said that they actually saw lower costs and supply reliability increase which is that that to me is a more hopeful
Plant People: Hm.
Brett: or like positive um side of that and 61 of those folks said that local sourcing was the sustainability related initiative that's delivered the strongest financial return.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: for them.
Plant People: mm -hmm Hmm.
Brett: So it's kind of interesting.
Plant People: Yeah, no, that is good.
Brett: You mentioned you all have that you all have experience with some grocery retail kind of stuff.
Plant People: Yeah, Jessica, I feel like I talk about mine often, what you've you all have sold into. grocery.
Jessica : Am I personally?
Plant People: How's that been?
Jessica : Is Sally named a grocery?
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica : Um. Most of our stuff has just been like of the bulk. the bulk sell right of like um
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : working with a local grocer that More of a small, small grocer, right? Like you're not getting into any of the.
Plant People: right
Jessica : ah
Plant People: Not the Whole Foods or the...
Jessica : the the whole The bigger ones, because, you know, there's lots of extra rules that come with that. But of having them.
Plant People: Sure.
Jessica : ah after Not like that they're necessarily getting seconds, but when we have prime tomatoes or sweet corn that... just It's the peak season, right?
Jessica : And everybody has it.
Brett: Mhm.
Jessica : And so you can't move it all because everybody has great tomatoes at that time.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : Being able to work with those local grocers where they can buy that surplus that we have um and then re resell it and been able to have a you know a decent price that we've gotten for them, even though they're.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : marking them you know Marking them up so they can make, you know, money off of those as well.
Plant People: Right.
Jessica : But in turn, they give you, um it's good advertising. Because we have also then got customers that way of like. our you know it's our farm name with that's being put next to those tomatoes and then people follow us on our our facebook page or then know where to you know also purchase stuff when we we don't have them at that store so it can be a nice trade -off um to help those.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : well Especially the local stores that are trying to really push those local products.
Plant People: mm -hmm
Jessica : in it. So.
Brett: So are you, are you?
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: Oh, sorry. Yeah, I forgot.
Plant People: No, it's okay
Brett: you i was going to ask you if you were if you are
Plant People: That's a good question.
Brett: Still prioritizing the direct -to -consumer market as much as you can, and then that's kind of a secondary? Is that how you look at it?
Jessica : Yeah, that's kind of a secondary for us. So it's direct to consumer with through farmers markets first. And then that is the the secondary market where things are surplus is going.
Plant People: The surplus.
Jessica : to those. um to those locations. And then, you know, and then even after that, like the next round is also working with those other organizations.
Jessica : Like I cannot think of their name. They actually come to the farmer's market and get Glean, like Glean Kentucky and some of those other organizations to get that produce, you know.
Plant People: Glean. Yeah.
Jessica : moved. ah Where people can actually, you know, people can use it. That's still.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : Still good, fresh produce. And there's always, you know, some of the grocery stores too. will occasionally want to buy your seconds because depending on the type of grocery store, if it's a smaller a smaller one, they may be making their own products.
Jessica : Like if they have a deli or something, we've had ones that have bought seconds in the past because they're turning it into a salsa or they're you know making their own.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : value added product, right?
Plant People: They have a buffet or something.
Jessica : Or a buffet or.
Plant People: Yeah, yeah.
Jessica : They've purchased them because. They're going to sell them a second. To people who are looking at it.
Plant People: For canners or something.
Jessica : Yeah. For canners that way too.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : um Where, you know, that might sell sometimes out of farmers market, but that's also a lot. to bring with you. you know, to bring boxes and.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : There's also times when people request those products. and then they never show for those products, you know?
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : So that's also a nice partnership to have knowing that those, you know, secondary. grocery stores. Well, you know. You'll be able to move those products to them as well.
Plant People: Mhm. Mhm. i have I have found um that... The local grocery, you know. grocery is always kind of the... Uh...
Plant People: viewed as one of the lowest prices that you can get for your product. um you know it's in ah It's in a wholesale word. and that's not necessarily true but I'm thinking like from a local what most of our Kentucky growers and their smaller scape grocery would be um On the low lower end or the lowest end of maybe what they do. ah you know different if you're working with like Lay's potato chips or something but Anyways, for Kentucky growers, that tends to be the lowest end. and the
Plant People: The smaller local grocers. Like it's not necessarily the lowest end. um I think for some products, like I think they're willing to pay because they have customers that are coming there, you know, willing to pay, but it's all about like.
Plant People: the area that they're in i mean a local grocery store in a really rural area
Jessica : Mm -hmm.
Plant People: Because those do still exist in Kentucky might not do as well as, you know, a local grocer. um in an urban area right and so i think it's just all depends on that but i have not it My personal experience is it's not been the lowest end for product.
Plant People: um which has been really nice because it's consistent and um You're still you're still making.
Jessica : Yep.
Plant People: more than enough on it. so
Brett: Yeah, I think one of the biggest... things to ah that you have to adjust to as you start looking at larger markets because that was this that's basically what this is about is beyond just direct to consumer markets is that
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: As you do that... you One way to describe it is that you now have a marketing partner. in this process which has two things one
Plant People: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. For sure.
Brett: It's good because you don't have to do all of it anymore. ah it's that But that means they got to get paid for their work too, meaning your your overall price is going to go lower. and basically the the more people there are in between you and the customer.
Brett: The more people have to get paid along that supply chain and it becomes kind of challenging. And, but one of the things that's kind of. Interesting that's popped up and the the people from the food connection like Brandy that we've already talked to and Bo and Emily, they have these positions of value chain coordinator. And the value chain concept is kind of a supplement to the idea of the supply chain, where, in other words. the product.
Brett: and and it and the process and the the terms of its creation. are production whatever. has some sort of value that is retained through the supply chain as opposed to just a commodity where it's like.
Brett: it's a tomato so that's all that it you know it's this is a local tomato or it's high quality or it's a particular variety or what there's a lot of different ways of thinking about it but
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: Um. One of the kind of troubling things that we've seen, at least from national scale data. is that Well, not troubling, but...
Brett: troubling if you're in this this space is that the direct to consumer market has generally been stagnant or shrinking.
Plant People: yeah
Brett: Over the last.
Plant People: Hmm.
Brett: eight to 10 years. Now, you may have a local market that's thriving and you have more customers than you've ever had.
Plant People: Popping off.
Brett: That's not what know I'm not saying. every it's you know it's dead everywhere
Plant People: Yeah. This is big, big picture.
Brett: But but there's a there was a. a moment of the local food movement where there you saw growth where you saw growth in some parts because it was coming from a starting from a smaller place and so growth of a small thing is in a percentage can look really great, 100 % growth. and yet you know I have 100 % more apples than I had yesterday, and I had one yesterday, and now I have two.
Brett: ah but
Jessica : yeah
Brett: Uh... And so the the idea of like, how do you address this? working through distributors or working through some sort of a supply chain while also retaining some of the value.
Brett: of that product is it and it the shorter it is like you're talking about the grocery where it's like primarily them you know you're dropping it off to them they're putting it out they're stocking it and whatever.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: um there's a little bit less a little bit shorter supply chain potential for them to share some of those profits back um and interestingly like one of the other things it's it's sort of like well duh but um the further you are from a major population center.
Plant People: Right.
Brett: the more distribution becomes attractive because you want to get the product from where you're producing it to where it's going. But again, As you do that, you start to lose. um lose some of that but uh and one of the interesting again these are just some trends in like the kind of distribution world so so when we talk about retail Um, in in this context and what Jess and Alexis were talking about.
Brett: is more like... Um, I'm selling it to the retailer who then sells it.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: Um,
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: Whereas in other cases, like for the larger grocery chains, you're selling it to a distributor who maybe sells it to another distributor who then sells it to the grocery store. There's lots of. different.
Brett: um things happening there, but. As those things develop, there's this within within this value chain, the idea of localness itself. can kind of shift that a local product doesn't necessarily mean
Jessica : hu
Brett: That the transaction is happening in a local place, you know, one to one, peer to peer, but that the locality itself is like attached to the product and travels with it through the supply chain, which is kind of an interesting and abstract.
Plant People: this
Brett: way of talking about it but um do you all have any any thoughts about that or like I'm just curious
Plant People: Are you... Are you saying like... Um... It might go from... you know, state in within the state to within the region to within the, you know, Midwest or
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: um
Jessica : Like local is not going to be.
Plant People: Are you saying because the because the first distributor you bought it locally? That that. then is deemed a local even if the fine Even if the final.
Jessica : That's...
Plant People: resting place. is
Jessica : Destination, yeah.
Plant People: yeah final destination thank you to resting place it's it's spooky season um is you know
Brett: Yeah, ooh.
Plant People: the other side of the country. Is that what you're saying?
Brett: yeah No, I don't think it's necessarily that. I think it's more like. as ah As a consumer, I... am experiencing localness not in the sense that i am going to a locality to buy it but that I'm buying a product. in a place that I already shop, maybe a grocery store or something or a restaurant.
Brett: And yet that that product is marketed as local. but I have no connection to it. like i the localness is less it's less relate directly relational and more of a
Plant People: oh yeah yeah yeah
Jessica : Hmm.
Jessica : It's just like a marketing tactic to like get you to, yeah.
Brett: An attribute, yeah.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: Yeah.
Jessica : um Because something's...
Plant People: Yeah. I have been paying more attention to those in in like... you know places like Kroger and stuff where they say local and I'm like It just feels like that's more obvious lately than it used to be in those bigger chains.
Jessica : Yes.
Plant People: There's just like this local. And I'm like, OK, but what is local? Like, what do they what do they mean?
Jessica : I...
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: It's like a farm I've never heard of. And I mean, it might be within you know the state or surrounding states, which, of course, is better than coming from. out of the country, but it's like. It really means a lot less to me.
Plant People: Because there's no...
Jessica : It's...
Plant People: No.
Jessica : Yeah, it's just like one of those.
Plant People: You don't know them. I've heard of them or of.
Jessica : labels that just get stuck on like a bag of like, it's like non -GMO to a product that there's not.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : any Like they don't.
Plant People: Right, there's no GMO tomatoes, yeah.
Jessica : There's not a vegetable. Yeah. Right. And so it's like it's it turns it kind of turns into that. I pay attention a lot to it with honey, especially as having my own.
Plant People: Hmm. Yeah.
Jessica : And there's always a great debate with local honey when people call because they're like, I want local honey. I have to have it from like. In like. Within.
Plant People: The county that I live in.
Jessica : two miles of my house because of the, because the help of my allergies was, well, it's like, well, the same plants that are blooming here in Mercer County are also in Boyle County or Garrett County.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Allergens.
Jessica : So if you get honey from any of the, you know, it's the same.
Plant People: yeah
Jessica : But then you also see it like in the store. It'll be like local honey. and it might be coming from ohio right or it's like
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: Yeah.
Jessica : you know Where do you draw the line?
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : with it So you're right. It's like kind of changing in that sense that it's just. a I'm going to put this big local sticker on there.
Plant People: Well, and it it waters it down. It feels less like less like locals an actual thing it's like
Jessica : Yeah.
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: you know how saying the word over and over until it loses meaning is sort of the way the vibe sometimes you know sustainability used to be like the huge word right and then it kind of fell out of favor and i still use it because i can't i don't think there's
Jessica : Mm -hmm.
Plant People: really a better one in a lot of cases but there's you know there's just these words that are like buzz and that one is the current one i think
Brett: Yeah. I mean, on the flip side, if we do sort of look at the fact that direct -to -consumer markets are potentially shrinking and this provides maybe an opportunity, I think one of the things is that these markets value localness and probably like protect the concept of localness very differently depending on their scale and their size.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: and i mean
Plant People: mm -hmm
Brett: In Kentucky. uh, A lot of bourbon is local.
Plant People: Right.
Brett: But it's a global. fit brand and it's Its brand is often more about its quality than it is about its localness, despite the fact that it's local to here.
Plant People: industry.
Jessica : Mm hmm.
Plant People: mm -hmm
Plant People: True.
Brett: Or like, for example, if you go to places like California or Florida, you have these places that are growing produce.
Plant People: True.
Brett: that is going everywhere in the United States. including to the Walmart Inn. Florida.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah.
Brett: It's a local product. I mean, it's literally truly a local product grown nearby. Different supply chain. it provides you know This is something that's been going on for a while, but it ah it provides a little bit.
Plant People: Yeah, that's true.
Brett: and this Again, we we presented this in collaboration with the Organic Association of Kentucky. And so they were asking me and talking a little bit about Certified Organic. and i think one of the things we've seen in organic is that um so generally speaking Not generally speaking. just flat fact.
Brett: Certified organic. The market is growing. faster. than the broader food market is growing. So in other words, it's taking up a larger portion of food sales every year.
Plant People: ah
Brett: However, and this is my joke during the talk, is that I like to make everyone in a dinner party upset at me. Um, It still only represents about 6 .9 % of the total food sales in the United States, but that number has grown really, really fast and faster than the overall. Pie has grown.
Brett: What that tells me is it's... It's progressed and progressing toward this mainstreamness. in the same And I think there's a parallel there with local, that it starts to approach mainstream. And then what happens is you start to lose some of the the old heads, like the people on this podcast.
Brett: start to lose a little bit of their control over what that thing means, even organic, like it's shifted in the consumer landscape.
Plant People: is it Mm hmm.
Brett: people some Some people may so associate it with sustainability. On the other hand, some people may only care about it from a consumer health and cleanness.
Plant People: others
Brett: that organic is produced as this cleaner product because of pesticide residue or or whatever. Um, And then even the divergence there between certified organic and local that. people would Some people would prefer an organic product versus some a lot of people a lot of consumers in Kentucky historically and and generally.
Plant People: Mhm.
Brett: It's a higher premium on local than they do on certified organic, though there's differences where depending on where you are.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: Um, So yeah, I think the idea of this thing going mainstream, it's it's sort of like the, you know, my favorite band has a hit album and now they sold out. Uh,
Plant People: Yeah, yeah
Brett: But at the same, so i do you all have, I mean, how do you feel about? there.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: the the mainstreaming of organic or local.
Plant People: I mean, i The one good thing is... ah that if I can have a choice, so if I'm in a, you know, I live in a small town, so I have only a small you know Kroger, I don't have a local grocery or that kind of stuff. I can't go to the farmer's market, but if I'm going to the grocery store and I have the local, but it's from Ohio versus just the regular that, you know, might be from California or Mexico or wherever.
Plant People: I do like that I can choose the one that has had less food miles on it or, you know. um just there's less gas to get it to me in in theory right in my brain that's what happens. So I do like that I have more information to make a choice based on my values, but I can see from like a farmer standpoint.
Plant People: you know That's me as consumer Alexis, but as farmer Alexis, it's like, does that wash down my brand of local? because There are people who aren't going to look as it. Is it local Ohio or local Kentucky? and Or they'll say, well, I do buy local, but I buy it at Kroger, so I don't have to go to the farmer's market. And so um then they're not putting money back into their truly local farmers, right? So there's like two there's two sides to that coin in my brain.
Plant People: And this is this is a daily life for me.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: It's like both angels on the shoulders just fighting each other constantly.
Brett: Yeah, I mean I think it depends on
Jessica : i
Brett: Where and why? customers or consumers are entering into their engagement with local. um some people so there's there was where there was data from um from USDA and then some data from Kentucky that we have from a more recent survey talking about local food consumers and why they buy it.
Plant People: Mm.
Brett: And one of the... top things that people rate was freshness. Another was taste and another was like safety, safeness of the perceived safeness of the product, which I think there's.
Jessica : hu
Plant People: isn
Brett: Again, every dinner party, I can make everyone mad. but um Just because it comes from a small farm doesn't necessarily mean that it's safer.
Plant People: And enjoy doing it.
Brett: It means that the.
Plant People: Right.
Jessica : It could mean it's a little more riskier, depending on depending on the farm, right?
Brett: it It could be.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: It could be. The the biggest thing with with a lot of the food safety stuff is that the amplification of the risk.
Jessica : like
Jessica : Right.
Brett: If you have one farm that's going to.
Plant People: Mhm.
Brett: 1200. Fast food chains. well if you have a problem it's going to affect a lot more people
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: okay
Brett: ah So it's just, i not again, i'm i I am very happy and proud of the work that a lot of our... colleagues have done on food safety in Kentucky. and I don't mean I mean any criticism there, but it's just there's there's but we're ultimately dealing with like consumer psychology and a lot of this stuff.
Jessica : It's very true. I've i've experienced that selling it at farmers markets. I've experienced standing at a booth and having people speak very loudly.
Plant People: and
Jessica : A few feet away from me and looking over at a table saying. Well, you know they went to the grocery store and they bought that. That's too that's too nice looking.
Brett: Right.
Jessica : they didn't grow that themselves right and then being the person i am having to speak up and be like oh actually this is a farmer grown only like there's no buy and resell allow you know this market people actually grew these products so you get like the extremes of that
Plant People: Mm -hmm.
Plant People: mm -hmm
Jessica : and then also you know, people who really. really buy into the local and organic and I want to see dirt.
Jessica : still on my produce right like so you can get like the extreme the extremes of it and you like you're they're playing with their psychology of like of what they think
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : local should be or um if it does look too pristine just like i said did people rebuy it you know Has this been bought someplace else or?
Plant People: yeah it's like god forbid i washed my vegetables you know like so sorry i'm good at what i do
Jessica : Right, right. So... So there's like all these different things that play into it that you would never. think would play into it.
Jessica : um When you're just going to like. I'm going to sell some produce and see, you know, there's
Plant People: I'm just gonna sell my tomatoes this year.
Jessica : Right. And there's so many things that go into it because people will be like, well, I want it organic or I want like if it's not organic, is it sustainable, it still sustainably grown or.
Jessica : um
Plant People: you' like Do you know what that means?
Jessica : Right. And then getting in like. And you sell meat? at a market that's a whole other whole other thing of
Plant People: Oh Lord.
Jessica : Questions that come with those of like. Have the animals, were they ever treated with antibiotics? Well... Well, yeah, if they had pink eye. You know, they may have got an antibiotic because we don't want them to be blind, right? You don't want an animal to suffer and take care. But, you know, you follow the rules with, you know.
Jessica : between antibiotics and processing time and, you know, or just questions of.
Brett: Yeah.
Jessica : um i don't know I don't want them to have any. any grain or any, you know, I only want, they've only been fed just grass, nothing else in their whole life or, you know.
Jessica : And then until you can explain and educate. you know, the consumer of like, what causes that marbling and that steak that you love so much, right?
Plant People: ah
Jessica : um So it's a whole whole different thing.
Brett: Yeah, and that that's an interesting... That's an interesting one, too, because there's like. This is more broadly within agriculture. There's there's a lot there's like vested interests in...
Brett: um in like the way things are done.
Jessica : Mm hmm.
Brett: to say that Our way of doing things is this thing that needs to be educated into the consumer, whereas these groups that are critical would say that you're actually, you know, so there's all these tensions that I love to just.
Jessica : Yeah.
Brett: you know, swim in. But. Let's jump to...
Plant People: Oh, yeah. Asking.
Brett: Okay, go ahead.
Plant People: Asking a person if they, sorry, if they'd like. ah If they'd rather have organic but has been fed grain, grain like an animal, like organic grain, or just purely grass -fed but not organic.
Plant People: watch their head swim and if you're one of those people is your head swimming because like I I'm just like I don't know I can't eat red meat anymore so it doesn't matter but like a question like that will just like
Brett: Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah.
Brett: Yeah. i've opted out of this one
Plant People: bust somebody's brain they're like i don't know the answer.
Brett: Yeah. And I mean, it's it is like a... It... what is What constitutes good information and in what... in what direction, like what it even is.
Brett: What? ah not Not like... Is this a validated thing? But like, what is the good outcome even?
Plant People: Mhm.
Brett: Is it? something nutritional is it it's a very ah convoluted landscape with lots of people who are who who have their own story or their own mission or their own vested interest in telling a version of the story.
Brett: for one reason or another, um ideological or otherwise, let's jump to another value -laden. market channel. essential to the self -conception and psychological mythology of the American.
Brett: Population. Farm to school, K to 12, lunch school lunches.
Jessica : Okay. Oh yeah.
Brett: ah Lots of things that people have thoughts and and and feelings about. And there's some good data, which are cool. and there's different experiences, which are also really other data and are cool. Um,
Brett: i was kind of surprised by this but there was a really big push uh in from like 2020 to 2024 ish
Plant People: Mhm.
Brett: ah toward providing some supplemental funding. to schools to be able to source but from 20 in 2022 and 2023 According to this report from ERS, according to Savannah's reading of this report from ERS, which I'm not I'm not throwing it on her. I'm just saying. um From that year, 74 % of U .S. schools participated in farm to school activities with a local food purchase totaling $1 .8 billion. dollars
Plant People: 74 %?
Brett: Yeah. Seems crazy.
Plant People: That's all.
Brett: I mean, you you could have, you know, places that are more like into that.
Jessica : That's...
Plant People: That's crazy.
Brett: Like I'm imagining a hundred percent of.
Plant People: hu
Brett: Colorado schools or something.
Plant People: Right.
Brett: And it's participated. it's not like that you know they could have That means they may have bought one thing of cabbage or whatever for for a a...
Plant People: one time.
Brett: slaw or something. um But. external support. grant funding. And staff increased the likelihood of being able to source, as you might imagine.
Plant People: Sure.
Brett: Uh, And interestingly, um the The rural schools were more likely to buy direct from individual producers. or if I'm directed. ah consumer market channels.
Brett: And the more experienced suit. Food service folks.
Plant People: the
Brett: were more likely to to do it because they they know how to do that.
Plant People: Sure.
Brett: Yeah. Do you all have, you all worked with a new farm to school?
Jessica : This is... Um, This is reminding me, though, Alexis and I. It gets to go on a really cool tour once about the biggest.
Plant People: Oh yeah!
Jessica : um Farm to school. purchaser in our state. uh in Louisville, the Jefferson County Public School System.
Plant People: and Louisville.
Jessica : um is the largest
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : ah purchaser of
Plant People: That's a wild, I mean, like they look like, I mean, they are a distributor of of kinds, right?
Jessica : It was... Insane.
Plant People: Because they're distributing to so many different schools, but it.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: looked like a warehouse of it like a distributor warehouse i have been in like a you know big company.
Jessica : It was the biggest. Freezer we've ever walked in.
Plant People: this It was like a two -story freezer.
Jessica : It was a two -story freezer.
Plant People: it was great It was snowing in there.
Brett: Yeah.
Jessica : It was snowing.
Plant People: It was literally snowing in there.
Brett: Snow globe.
Plant People: i Cannot make that up.
Jessica : But it was it was amazing because they they were dialed in with trying to purchase.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : They were purchasing local beef.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : And they were purchasing ah local produce where they they could. And they also could do that. I think it's really successful in schools with the summer feeding. programs because that is when it is you know farmers actually have
Plant People: Mhm. Yeah.
Plant People: Right.
Jessica : produce, to add out because I know the challenges, at least to here in our county, of where they want to participate in it, but a lot of times farmers don't have as much product. You know, when it is.
Plant People: Right.
Jessica : Time for school.
Plant People: School time.
Jessica : right school time um but they were they were able to do it in jefferson county how they were
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: And I think that they they also produced a lot of their own, you know, like they baked their own breads and bagels and they made their own salsas.
Jessica : Yep.
Plant People: And so like that. that warehouse that we were in had a big commercial kitchen, like big commercial kitchen. Remember the vats of like homemade ranch sauce?
Jessica : It was...
Plant People: They had like, I think it was like homemade ranch.
Jessica : Yes.
Plant People: And it was like a, it was, cheap it was like a septic tank size. full of homemade ranch but they were able to use a lot of those products when they were available and do this like added value but then it and it arrived at the school in a form that the lunch you know line
Jessica : Yep.
Jessica : Mm -hmm.
Plant People: could easily use.
Jessica : could easily heat up and like they were freezing.
Plant People: Yeah, it was ah still frozen and stuff. So that I think was the difference, really, um my mother -in -law.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: is a lunch lady and she's been a lunch lady for a long time and so she's kind of seen this ebb and flow based on administration of how much fresh is coming in versus frozen. And she's like personally experienced the prep. and all of that. and so um Yeah, but that's a big part of it, too, is that like the kitchens have to be in these smaller schools.
Plant People: have to be have the time and capability of prepping this fresh product that comes in where this like Louisville um place did all the prep and vacuum sealed it and then it arrived at the school like it would arrive from.
Plant People: Cisco or whoever it is they buy from. I don't actually know, but that, yeah, it was.
Jessica : It was amazing to see that.
Plant People: wild.
Jessica : yeah
Brett: Do you all, do you all think like, does it? matter that our schools Bye, local foods.
Plant People: I don't have kids in school. Jessica, do you want your kitty?
Jessica : I was going to say, yeah, as i as I now have a kindergartner. And I'm getting to experience, you know, the school lunches and what they have and everything.
Plant People: her
Jessica : I think it is. I think it is important if they could supplement some of that with some local. um produce, even if it's something small, right? Like even if it's ah doing some cherry, I know cherry tomatoes is always like the classic example.
Jessica : At least I hear that tossed her around a lot, right?
Plant People: mm -hmm
Jessica : um ah Having that, because I know like some of it. Jefferson County is the exception. Like it is not really feasible when you think about a lot of them, like if they were doing like.
Plant People: Mhm.
Jessica : local meat like prepack because you know to me i automatically go to that thinking like oh that would be a great product because it can be frozen right and like you could you know um but again it's that prep Right.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Plant People: Right.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : And how many kids you're feeding. ah But I do think it's important because. You get, like... Not to go down this road, but sometimes that. Is what that's happening. The only time kids are eating.
Jessica : during the day. And they are so dependent on the school.
Brett: Mm hmm.
Jessica : So um they do free breakfast at the school that my son goes to. So they get breakfast and lunch and they have a snack they can do. And they try to do a summer feeding program, I believe.
Jessica : but I think it is really important to try to get some of those local products in, not just for you know a farmer's sake, but for these kids, because sometimes that is the only meal that they are getting during the day and they get nothing else until they come back to school the next day.
Plant People: yes
Plant People: mm -hmm
Jessica : And so if you could get, you know, some of that fresh, you know. nutritious. produce and things into their diet. any chance you can get, is I think is a good. A good thing.
Jessica : And also seeing that connection maybe in their community as well. um
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : if the school's willing to. you know, talk about where some of their food is coming from and seeing that connection with farming and maybe ah spark some interest in some of the kids of like farming at a young age.
Plant People: Yeah. I think once they're able to read, it would be cool that if if if they did have a local product like it said.
Jessica : Mm hmm.
Plant People: the farm name and like the city or or whatever the kids would relate more to. I mean, I know that's and just one more thing for. people who are already stressed in this and a ah stressed environment to deal with. but um
Plant People: I mean, that I think would help. you know, related and it would be, you know, if I was Bo one day will maybe be a kid who's can say, oh, yeah, that came from my farm. Right. And um just like there's a there's a level of pride there and just excitement. I think, you know, we had like a salad bar in my high school growing up.
Plant People: Every day, you know, every day there's a salad bar and like salad is one of those things that we can grow almost year round in Kentucky um without a ton of extra infrastructure. ah And, you know, to be able to put a farm up there and I could have been like, oh, yeah, that came from, you know, down the street or so -and -so's neighbor. Like that would have been a cool experience.
Plant People: um And to like the job perspective, like no one. I grew up in a rural community and so no one really ever told me I could be a farmer when I grew up, right? Like I was in FFA and still no one told me I could be a farmer when I grew up. It was just like a thing that you did um that somebody's dad did in tobacco and had a cow. Like it was not.
Plant People: a job, per se, but a career, so. We've taken this off tangent of markets a little bit, Brett, sorry.
Brett: Sigh.
Jessica : Yeah.
Brett: That's know that's great. I think that's I mean, that's part of the how people experience the markets out in the world.
Plant People: ah
Brett: So I just have one more that I'll that I'll talk about and then we can. send us all on our way but So that... is this idea of this collaborative CSA model.
Plant People: Mmm.
Brett: um So CSA, Community Supported Agriculture. means different things to different people largely again depending on how old of a head you are in the uh local food space and
Plant People: this
Brett: there are people who hear csa or experience csa and if you suggested that they would go out and do volunteer time on the farm as part of the terms of their CSA agreement, they would look at you as though you have two heads.
Plant People: ah ah
Brett: There was a time where that was more normalized. and Not always, but... um And. I think this is just another example of. how the local food world is shifting and there's there's some some tensions and in particular I think we're seeing that like.
Brett: There's a lot more options that sell a... group of foods together. to direct to the consumer. in some way or another.
Plant People: this
Brett: It may look like a veggie box, like a CSA. It may come from a local space. It may not come from a local space. It may be arranged around a meal.
Plant People: mm -hmm
Brett: It may be just grocery delivery. But there's this. this change that's happened. Over the last 15 years or so. uh that I think is making CSA, collaborative CSA, food hub models, food box models.
Brett: They're a little more muddied and blurred the lines between them are blurred more than they were.
Plant People: mm -hmm
Brett: at some points in the past and i think one of the questions that Um, I think there's still a matter of retention is like like a key thing.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: getting a customer but also then retaining the customer because it's way more expensive to find and onboard new customers and if somebody's coming back to you knowing what your product is and they're getting it over and over again they generally require less hand holding all those things Um,
Brett: But I think... It's also... like for for me so when you hear collaborative csa regardless of what i just said what what comes to mind.
Jessica : ah For me, it's like multiple farmers. Coming together to do that.
Brett: Mm -hmm.
Jessica : And. hoping, You have a point person. Because. I don't know. To me, it kind of seems I'm like, ooh, like. Like a good thing, but also like a very kind of from a grower standpoint, kind of stressful thing because you definitely need a point person. And I will brag on my fellow coworker and her old position. um They had a collective CSA.
Jessica : in Boyle County and it worked because
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Jessica : of Alexis be there and having a point person right to orchestrate that for a drop -off location for farmers to bring all their products. um And that's nice because like...
Jessica : Personally. We we are not early season crop people, right? We do not do we. dream about it like but we don't do the lettuces and like all those kind of things broccoli all that stuff um But there are other people. like in the market we sell at that do. And.
Jessica : you know, they have that going for a long time of the season. So if you're doing like those collective boxes, it gives everyone, you know, together that opportunity to put stuff in and make a nice, well -rounded box and mix of things. But again, I think of it as like, it's multiple farmers coming together.
Jessica : to and it can work nicely too for like if you're somebody small and you specialize in things like there was a man when we first started our market career i never knew his name he was a kohlrabi guy
Brett: huh
Plant People: ah
Jessica : He only saw kohlrabi? I still don't know his name to this day.
Plant People: Of all things, should that be the only thing you grow?
Jessica : He was super sweet.
Plant People: like
Jessica : He was in Woodford County. Kohlrabi guy, you know. ah That's what he could contribute. And still, you know. be able to sell his product that way.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: How far? How far would you be willing to expand the boundaries? Of. a CSA, assuming they were also small farms.
Brett: in a collaborative CSA that you would want to participate in.
Plant People: When we... when
Jessica : All right.
Plant People: Uh... I helped with the one in Boyle County. It was... any So the pickup pickup location was in Boyle. predominantly served people in Boyle or people who worked in Boyle.
Plant People: And so. We can see any county that touched Boyle. if you were a farmer in that county were allowed to be a part of that. Multi -CSA. And that's just because. um You know, there were specialty things. There was like some sweet, you know, we wanted sweet corn a couple weeks in the summer and no one in the county was growing sweet corn. and But it was I think the important thing there was it was all transparent and that was open. and early like everyone who signed up for the CSA knew that their product was coming from
Plant People: Boyle County or a county that touched Boyle County. Like that was. That was what they considered.
Brett: and
Plant People: um I don't know. That one's hard. There's so many models out there now where like, I mean, you think about the um Oh, what the I can't believe I'm blanking on that. Oak helps to be the point.
Plant People: person to hook up employees with ah CSAs.
Brett: Oh, the FarmShare Coalition?
Plant People: FarmShare Coalition.
Jessica : of
Plant People: Yeah. So like. um Lazy 8 delivered to Boyle County, but ah technically they where their farm is. They don't touch like boil, but that was still like really nice because there wasn't anything else available at that time.
Plant People: there wasn't a big csa available an organic csa um that was the closest one so it's like you know.
Brett: Yeah. Well, I'm going to push even further and I'm going to say. Who among us? enjoys Uh... Salmon filet. every once in a while.
Plant People: Mm. We won't.
Jessica : My whole family actually does.
Plant People: They're in the freezer.
Jessica : Yeah, they're in the freezer.
Brett: Who among us enjoys a fresh baked?
Jessica : My children like it.
Brett: Bread. Gluteny bread.
Plant People: Mm.
Brett: It's hard, not like a soft bread, but like ah like a hard, crusty bread.
Plant People: Yes.
Jessica : Yes.
Plant People: yes Yes.
Brett: Who among us enjoys? peonies early or late. especially if they're bought from a small farm.
Plant People: Small farm in Alaska.
Brett: Exactly. And so, I mean, that's that's what's happening is that.
Jessica : Yep.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: that we're pushing the definition of seasonality and locality toward maybe a small farm support thing. So in other words, um there might be a company that you just sell your peppers and and tomatoes to, and a small fishery operation sells salmon fillets to.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: And we may we even have um ah sorry CSAs. in kentucky whose source things that are harder for us to grow. like we We all like the idyllic idea the the idyllic notion of growing and eating local peaches.
Brett: Because it's great. It's awesome. It's cool.
Plant People: Sure.
Brett: The reality is it's much easier to grow really tasty peaches in other parts of the country. Um,
Jessica : Yes.
Plant People: Yes.
Brett: comparatively and so we have we have a ah ah major csa who transparently says we actually are working with such and such in this like lower humidity environment that doesn't have the same frost risks and sourcing those peaches and putting them into our csa share because we want you to have summer peaches
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Plant People: Mm hmm.
Brett: We just don't want. the situation you know having to grow them for for all these reasons and so It's a really interesting time for that kind of a model, especially if you have consumers who they don't want.
Brett: ah Some of them may not want a big box of produce and then they have to figure out all the other stuff. They might want a full more of a full meal. you know One or two meals a week is going to come out of this.
Plant People: Curated. Yeah.
Brett: And it could be, you know, it's Various levels of the the aprons and. blue boxes or whatever they're called. uh, So it's just that, yeah, it's another.
Brett: Aspect where like. It, uh... The old path of I just have this straight ahead CSA and maybe I buy from a couple other folks is not as clean and tidy as that. I think there still are opportunities to do that.
Plant People: Mhm.
Brett: um but It's a... It's an interesting time to be working in this space. so
Plant People: Well, and yes, it's a good thing because you can. Decide what your morals and your standards are, whatever those are, and there's probably something out there to fit.
Brett: and then see how much they're worth on the open market
Plant People: Um... Well, I was going to take that to some special place, but now I'm laughing.
Brett: laughter
Plant People: But it's okay because I don't really know.
Brett: Not that I mean that but that is That is the idea the of the idea of the value chain is that you are able to, there's there's some other thing besides just a commodity that people may value.
Plant People: where I was going
Brett: and you're figuring out mechanisms and ways to deliver that to them. in a way that's sustainable for the the farm or the operation that's doing it. and so Yeah, I think it's... It's interesting.
Brett: It's frustrating. It's confusing. It's...
Plant People: If you felt all of those things.
Brett: hopeful. It's dark. It's yeah.
Plant People: We're with you.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: And if you have questions on more of these, you know, sort of larger markets, you know, is that something that your farm wants to look into or something?
Brett: But the times, they are changing.
Plant People: That is what we do here at the CCD. And so the Center for Craft Diversification, if you're a new listener, that's Brett and I. and ah that's kind of our That's kind of our main thing. So we would love to help you find markets, understand maybe what market might be for you. So you can find us online. You can email this podcast, which all of us get. um
Plant People: notes to that is hortculturepodcasts at gmail .com. You can find that in the links below. While you're leaving us five stars, you can look for that and let us know the market you're interested in or how you define local if you want. We'd love to know. ah You can also follow us on Instagram at hortculturepodcasts and you can send us messages on there if you have any. questions, thoughts, or just, you know, accolades in general, that's great. But we appreciate you being here with us today and we hope you'll join us next time. Have a great one.
