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The beauty of To the Moon
324 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Satsunami and Adam take on one of the most iconic indie games To the Moon. Designed by Kan Gao and Freebird Studios, the game follows scientists Neil Watts and Eva Rosalene as they try to navigate through the memories of a dying man in hopes of fulfilling his lifelong wish. While this episode does venture into more serious topics relating to life and death, we hope you enjoy this discussion.
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Transcript
Introduction and Moon Restaurant Joke
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. I'm Satsunami and joining me on my adventure to the moon tonight is my very good friend Adam. Adam, welcome back.
00:00:35
Speaker
a news topic here at Sat Tsunami to do with our episode today. So did you hear about that new restaurant on the moon? I did not. Apparently great food but no atmosphere. This is by far the shortest episode of Chat Tsunami. Well done Adam. How could you hate that? That's an amazing dad joke. You know I'm sure you've told me that before but whether or not you have honestly it's funny every time. I think there's a hundred percent chance I've said that at least once before.
00:01:04
Speaker
For all our dedicated Chatsunami fans out there, go through the old episodes, see if Adam's brought out this one, because I've got a sneaking suspicion. Don't amass me for the fraud that I am. I've no new material. All we'll have to do is look through your memories and see if you have, which definitely is such a natural way to segue into the topic at hand tonight.
Exploring 'To The Moon' Game Premise
00:01:27
Speaker
Beautifully done. Sometimes you've just got to take your hat off and just be like,
00:01:30
Speaker
is a masterpiece. So yeah today we are going to be talking about a indie gem known as To The Moon. Now when I say indie gem I actually mean it non-ironically. I'm not saying that like oh an indie gem like Mario. No no no I'm talking about a true indie gem tonight. So of course the game we're going to be talking about is To The Moon which is a... it is really
00:01:54
Speaker
to describe this game and don't worry Adam I won't leave the plot summary to you this time because I know you get anxious when I turn round and I'm like Adam would you like to describe the game? Oh man I had my written summary all out with all these different names and everything. So To the Moon is a game that focuses around two scientists who work for an organisation known as the Sigmund Corporation
00:02:18
Speaker
Now Adam, correct me if I'm wrong, but do you think the Sigmund Corporation and this game is pretty much a cross between the Make-A-Wish Foundation and the guys from Inception? Pretty much that, if that organisation was run by Sigmund Freud. I think it's a good way to describe it.
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah, he's the final boss in this, spoilers. He's got three forms, id, ego, superego. I'm sorry, but I spent one year studying social sciences. I'll use
Gameplay Mechanics and Emotional Themes
00:02:45
Speaker
that psychology to greet him. And he hits you with the Oedipus Complex as his final move. Yeah, it was a very dark game.
00:02:52
Speaker
basically follows these two scientists whose main job is to basically rummage through their clients' memories and alter them so they can make their final wish come true when they're on their deathbed. In the case of this game they go to visit a man called Johnny who is wanting to go to the moon, as the title suggests of course, but as they ask him why do you want to go to the moon, Johnny simply replies that he doesn't quite know and the whole game kind of revolves around
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, pretty much their adventures into this man's, really just this man's mind to try and make his last wish come true. Would you say that's a fair summary? I think that is an excellent summary. Again, it annoys me that you can do these things so well and I struggle so mightily.
00:03:40
Speaker
to explain the plot to a Sonic game but there we go. To be fair it's more complicated than this game and I don't mean that as a slight against To The Moon. The pedestrian storytelling of To The Moon, where's the final hazard and Gerald Robotnik. It's like that meme where it's like the Chad Sonic story writing.
00:04:00
Speaker
Hey chokes with guns, that's what I'm saying this game needed. It's gonna be the next big thing I tell you. Exactly. We're gonna take it to the bone dammit. But yeah, I was really surprised at how long ago this game came out. So this game came out about eleven nearly.
00:04:16
Speaker
at the time of recording this, but nearly 11 years ago. And I'm quite curious to hear if you actually knew anything about this game, Adam, when it came out. I knew nothing about this game until about three weeks ago, when you brought it onto my radar. I'd never heard of it. Yeah, and like, no, it's that way sometimes, you know, you're like, well, maybe I did hear about this. I know for a fact I never heard anything about this game at all until a few weeks ago.
00:04:43
Speaker
Not even a peep, or? No, nothing at all. Even when I went through my initial phase of indie gaming, I never remember hearing this one. Now granted, I'm mainly a console player. I've gone to the Switch now, hasn't it? But for a long time, this was just a PC, Mac exclusive game, if I'm right in saying.
From Skepticism to Emotional Impact
00:05:04
Speaker
The only reason I heard about this game was through, and I just want to point this out before we go on, we are not sponsored by Humble Bundle. Humble Bundle, for those of you who don't know, they do monthly bundles of games, of software and things like that, and you can pay a certain amount to get whatever tiers you want based on the games, the package.
00:05:27
Speaker
absolutely fantastic service but I remember I was in University around the time I bought this game and I remember, I think it was around 2012, 2013, I was in my flat and my flatmate came up to me and he said, oh have you heard of Humble Bundle? And he explained it and it honestly sounded like a scam. It isn't by the way but it honestly sounded like a scam. I was like, what's the catch here? You know, because there were really good games at the time
00:05:54
Speaker
But I remember I went through very much a FOMO stage, because at the time it wasn't like it is now, there wasn't books and software and all these different bundles being sold simultaneously. It was just one particular... That's right, isn't it? It was just one particular bundle that they were selling at a time at the beginning. I'll be honest, I didn't know that humble bundle until a few years ago, so I can't speak on their practices before, I'll be honest.
00:06:22
Speaker
Well if I'm right, if there's any humble bundle like stands out there as a cool kid say, just write us a letter. The humble bundlers as I call them. To be fair they wouldn't write as they are too humble.
00:06:37
Speaker
That's the one good thing about it. OK, that's my dad joke out of the way, so sorry. Back to the past. Around 2012, 2013, I remember they were selling a... I think it was a bundle called... It was like the RPG Maker bundle. And I remember just about a year from missing out, I was like, oh, I'll buy it, so I'll borrow it. And I remember To The Moon was in this bundle.
00:06:59
Speaker
and it sat basically in my digital library for, I mean, until like a couple of months ago. It sat there gathering dust and I remember reading about this game, people saying, oh it's so sad, oh you're gonna cry at it and everything and I was like yay!
00:07:17
Speaker
Yes, I suppose. But I never played it and you know Adam, you know how bad I am for playing games. Well I mean, in fairness, there's so many out there. I totally get that FOMO thing where you're just like, oh my god, but what if I do want to play this game and I don't get it at this time? Especially when you're a student and perhaps money's a bit tighter.
00:07:37
Speaker
like I've got to maximise, I've got to take advantage of every deal. So I get it. It's fair. It's fair. I think this is where most people maybe build up their back hogs from this time in their life. We were just like, I want to experience everything. And I knew, oh my God, I just don't have time. I mean, considering what remains of the defense, I mean, I would play that a couple of months ago as well. And that came out in 2017. If it wasn't for you, I don't know.
00:07:59
Speaker
I would have never played that game. So first of all, thank you and second of all, damn you for making me go on like an indie spree of gaming. I'm sorry. Well, I think I can, I only deserve part of the blame here. I'm pretty sure a friend of the show created some of the blame for this as well. Blame slash credit.
00:08:17
Speaker
A few gays time when he comes back on the show, don't you worry. I'm writing out what does we speak. The Satsu enemies list. I mean the Chatsu one, come on. Fair enough. Atari. What's the other one? David Cage, you're on there. David Cage, of course.
00:08:32
Speaker
What's his name? James Nguyen? He is like on both the list and your list to be fair. He's on many lists I'm sure. But you know who's not on the list? Can Gao, who is the developer of this game and is part of Freebird Games.
00:08:48
Speaker
Which, I'm going to be honest, before we jump into the main talking points of this game, were you quite surprised with the presentation of this game? Because I'm going to be honest, when I started it, I thought, and again I know it's a 2011 RPG Maker game, but
00:09:05
Speaker
I was really taken aback by the art style and stuff. I thought it was really basic and
Narrative vs Gameplay Balance
00:09:11
Speaker
I thought there's no way this is going to be as poignant as people make it out to be. But I cried. I'm not even ashamed to say it. I cried at this game. But were you the same, Adam?
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's interesting talking about this game being near 11 years old now. Because of those kind of 16-bit graphics, I find it very difficult to gauge when a game was released now. I mean, this could have been released 11 years ago. I feel it could have been released last year. If you told me it was released in the late 90s, I probably would have believed you as well. They do have a certain kind of timeless quality, the 16-bit graphic games. And yeah, I think what's maybe most surprising for me
00:09:50
Speaker
about the kind of visuals is they are very misleading in a way in that I don't think you would expect the game to play out the way it does with the visuals. Does that make sense? It does look a bit kind of like a kind of something like a chrono trigger or like in maybe an early Final Fantasy sort of knockoff is I don't mean knockoff, but you know what I mean, like kind of type game
00:10:10
Speaker
I think that's what you'd be more expecting, just kind of judging on the visuals alone. So it is quite surprising the direction the game goes, because you wouldn't think that the graphics are a natural fit for that, but it certainly does. It does a lot with a little, and that's, I think, one of the big strengths of the game.
00:10:25
Speaker
It's a completely misleading game, I'm going to be honest. When you go into this game, you honestly do, and I don't mean this in a threatening way, by the way, I'm looking at a red panda lawyer, and the red panda lawyer is kind of, he's giving these thumbs up to say you're good to go, but genuinely, you will not really expect, like judging by what you get to begin with, very misleading, but in all the right ways. I think that's the only time I'll go first at that, to be honest. But before we go on, will we just jump right into it?
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah, let's get in our rocket ship and blast off. And before we jump into this, I just want to give you lovely listeners at home. Basically two warnings. First of all, we will be diving into spoilers and honestly, if you haven't played this game,
00:11:10
Speaker
and you don't want to be spoiled this game's only about three or four hours long so if you want to experience it for yourself by all means pause the episode go away play it and then come back and listen to this because it is a fantastic experience and usually i would say this to the end i would say like oh i think this game's great you know go play it a bit genuinely
00:11:30
Speaker
if you haven't played it, wholeheartedly recommend it. It's definitely my top 10 games. Second of all, we are going to be talking about themes relating to death and maybe some other kind of heavy topics within this
Narrative Structure and Themes
00:11:45
Speaker
game. So just a fair content warning, just in case you're, you know, expecting a bit more of a light-hearted episode, which it will be a little bit light-hearted because come on, it's Chatsunami. But yeah, just in case. So without any further ado,
00:11:59
Speaker
Yep, as you said Adam, let's jump in a rocket ship and we will head to the moon. So as we're heading to the moon, please stand by for these transmissions. Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that talks about topics from gaming and films to streaming in general interest. Previously on Chatsunami, we discussed Game of the Decade, Deadly Premonition, the romantic thriller, Birdemic and listen to us get all sappy as we discuss our top five Christmas films.
00:12:27
Speaker
If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can find us on Anchor, Spotify, YouTube and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:12:40
Speaker
We are Beer and Chill Podcast. Podcast where we review TV shows, games, movies and whatever else takes our fancy. So what are you waiting for? If you're a cool kid like us, you're gonna listen to the Beer and Chill Podcast. You can get anywhere from Spotify all the way to your grandma's radio. My name is Jan. And I'm Craig Yisi. And we are Beer and Chill.
00:13:15
Speaker
So Adam, I've got to ask, what were your first impressions of this game? Because I feel as if this game is like what Edith Finch is to you. It's like I have the same kind of feelings towards this game. I think this is a fantastic indie game and I remember like after playing this bombarding you constantly to be like Adam play this game, Adam play this game and you must have been like how do I block his number?
00:13:40
Speaker
me out with more tech savvy. Now, that's your fault, not mine. Very true, very true. But yeah, what was your first impressions? Are you going into this game and, you know, just in general as you played through the game? I was actually, before I played this game, I was very excited to try it out because, as you mentioned, you'd been full of praise for it and I could tell, you know, I could tell it just wasn't like full of praise at all. You really did love this game.
00:14:05
Speaker
It affected you. So I was really, really key to start exam. I'm always interested to find games like this that do kind of hit you on an emotional level. So I was very, very excited to fire it up. I have to be honest, the first 20 minutes, I didn't think I was going to like it. I'll be honest.
Emotional Climax and Resolution
00:14:20
Speaker
I found one of the, so the two main characters, as you mentioned, the intro are two scientists working for this Sigmund core. I found one of them very annoying and the thought of spending a lot of time in the scariest presence. I was like, I'm not looking forward to this.
00:14:34
Speaker
I wasn't really engaged by the story to start with. I don't know. I kind of was like, okay, I'm waiting for something to happen here. I'm waiting to get hooked in. I probably went in with too high expectations, which is my own fault. I know I should have probably tempered a bit more and let the game kind of get going. But yeah, nothing really grabbed me for I'd say the first 20 minutes, but I kept going with it. And I thought, well, you know, like, I'm sure something is going to happen soon that will grab me in.
00:14:57
Speaker
And sure enough, it did. There's a point where you have to go into the basement of the house for the first time. One of the, one of the scientists states to basically set up the equipment that will allow the two of them to enter the dying man, Johnny's kind of dreams and, you know, undertake this task of sending him to the moon. But while one of them sets up the machinery that you need, the other one kind of gets to explore the house for a bit. And you, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about here, but you go into a particular room in the basement.
00:15:23
Speaker
and it's filled with these origami rabbits and the game all of a sudden took on a very kind of creepy kind of vibe and that I was it kind of sent a shift and I was like oh okay here we go this this has got me hooked now and from there yep I was really kind of hooked into it I really enjoyed discovering the story I thought it unfolded really well it's very poignant it's very moving yeah like I think it's it's an excellent it's an excellent narrative experience about there's no doubt so
00:15:50
Speaker
Those first 20 minutes I say I found them a bit of a struggle but you know it was well worth pushing through that and to experience what this game has to offer. Funny you say that because I had a very similar experience. Going into this game this is a danger about going into a game that is so highly praised because you're going to go into this game with such high expectations and kind of ink.
00:16:13
Speaker
oh this is gonna be the best game ever, it's gonna make me weep, it's gonna make me cry, I better turn on my camera and record myself, oh look, look at all these tears, but I do agree, the first kind of 10-15 minutes, or even 20s you said, like the beginning is quite slow moving,
00:16:32
Speaker
And I remember the first moment where you play as you said, the two doctors, Eva Rosalind and Neil Watts, you go through, and I know what you mean about Neil in this game, he is quite full on, he's a bit of a, excuse my language here, bit of a shit-poster, I would like to imagine, online, you know, he would be like a mean
00:16:52
Speaker
meme machine. And of course it's that kind of stereotypical dynamic, you know, Neil is very much the class clown who likes to joke around, Eva is very much the kind of straight face, no nonsense. You know, the odd couple of the science world essentially. And as you said, when you look through the house, I
00:17:13
Speaker
did get creeped out when you go into that room and it's just filled with origami rabbits. Not because, I was gonna say, not because I had David Cage flashbacks. I was a little bit worried, not gonna lie, I thought he'd snuck in somehow.
00:17:29
Speaker
He's a sneaky devil. He shows up when you least expect. It's like, you know those .exe games you get? Yeah. Where it is like, you know, you're playing it and you're like, oh, I'm playing a normal game. And it's just like David Cage's face slowly morphing into the screen. It's like, no, the horror. I don't want to play Heavy Rain again in 16 bits.
00:17:49
Speaker
the quick time events, no! Fortunately this game doesn't have quick time events, i was relieved, but the gameplay itself is when we talk about the gameplay, because before we go on to talk about you know the good points of this game, and there are, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of good points in this, when we talk about the weakest aspect of it, I think that's a good idea, let's get that out of the way. What did you think of the quote unquote gameplay of this?
00:18:16
Speaker
gameplay is my biggest problem with this game and because I think there's both too little of the gameplay but also too much if that make and that probably sounds very contradictory but what I mean by that is so the main sort of task the main kind of things you'll be doing in this game is
00:18:35
Speaker
is as you enter each memory of Johnny, you have to explore around and find this object that's going to allow you to travel to the next memory. And to do that, you need to find five of the ethical memory orbs, memory spheres. I can't quite remember the term for them. But you need to find five of these basically to unlock the item that's going to let you travel. And you just find those by examining some things or by just exploring parts of the environment.
00:18:59
Speaker
and then the other kind of main gameplay mechanic is a sliding puzzle which you have to do when you've unlocked the particular item for the kind of memory jump and you need to, it's like a sliding puzzle, you need to line it up to make a full image. On one hand it feels really perfunctory and I was never engaged, I buy it and I just, I found it a bit boring to be honest, to keep repeatedly doing the sliding tile puzzles and just kind of like
00:19:23
Speaker
walking around and at times sometimes you're like okay that makes sense why you know I've got a memory orb for looking at that item but sometimes I just walk into a part of the map and it
Pivotal Twist and Memory Loss
00:19:31
Speaker
would give me one and I was like why did I get one for that I don't really understand but also as well not only is it too limited but it feels like there's too much of it for me because I feel like it gets in the way of the story I was really I really got drawn into this into the story and I really wanted to find out more but I really resented having to kind of bumble around the environment
00:19:49
Speaker
for a good few minutes looking for these orbs and then having to solve a sliding tile puzzle. It felt like just such a pace killer and such an unnatural one and just kind of been like, Oh, it's a game. So here you go. Do some game plan. I'm like, Oh, but you're just, you're just, I just want to experience the story. I do feel a lot of games sometimes feel that they have to kind of put gameplay in there to justify it being a game. But sometimes you're like, you know what? You can just limit it. It's okay. Sometimes a narrative is strong enough to hold a game by itself. And I think this is definitely one. So that was my problem with the gameplay. Just too little, but also too much.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I feel as if in kind of mild spoilers for the subsequent sequels, Finding Paradise and Imposter Factory, which by the way, both fantastic games as well, I feel as if the gameplay itself can sometimes get in the way of the narrative. I totally agree with that because, see with the sliding puzzles,
00:20:43
Speaker
I genuinely I was really worried that because at the very beginning you get like a timer or not a timer but like a vital chart of Johnny's condition and I genuinely thought that if you didn't complete the gaming time or if you did something wrong in the title puzzle then you know something would happen to him in the real world and I was really worried about that but it turns out that's just
00:21:11
Speaker
inconsequential, it doesn't matter, you can basically bum about in his memories for as long as you want, which I was kind of like, in the one hand I'm like great, that's fine, but at the same time I liked looking for the mementos. I will say this, I think it's a clever idea and I think it's something that in poster factory probably does the best out the trilogy. And again,
00:21:36
Speaker
Before I go on, I just want to say I'm not going to say any spoilers for Finding Paradise and Imposter Factory. As I said, I love those games as well, but I feel as if for this one it can kind of be excused because it is the first game. I think Finding Paradise kind of does something a little bit worse in terms of the gameplay, but when I forced you to play the game I don't
00:22:01
Speaker
you'll see what I'm talking about but it's not the strongest aspect and I do feel as if it really holds it back in some ways and it gets kind of frustrating because you are looking for you know the last memento and everything and
00:22:16
Speaker
it does get annoying sometimes where you're kind of distracted from the story that you're so invested in, because I have to admit we see the same when there was mementos like blocking a certain part of the story and you were like really invested in the story and you're like oh man I'm kind of doing this now.
Character Development and Dynamics
00:22:33
Speaker
That was my big problem. I really hated that because I was just like, oh, why is this here? There's no reason for this puzzle to be here or this key hunt thing to be here for me. It's just like, oh, it's gameplay because it's a game for the sake of that. It really annoyed me because you made such an interesting story. Why are you artificially slowing me down and stopping me from experiencing this?
00:22:55
Speaker
And I think as well it annoys me a little bit because there are I think the concepts for the game but I think are actually pretty good. You know I do think the idea of exploring and finding you know these kind of mementos is an interesting idea and I think I just kind of wish it had been if it had been broadened out a bit more so it was a bit more kind of you know investigative and there was maybe a bit more of like trying to like
00:23:18
Speaker
puzzle solving, you know, you're trying to work out how things fit together, I think could have been interesting. I don't think the sliding puzzle thing is really any kind of way to make that. Well, again, personal opinion here, but I don't think there's really any way to make that good. I don't know. It just doesn't really interest me.
00:23:33
Speaker
And there's also another section where you reach a point where you can't, you're not able to go any further back into Johnny's memories. And so basically they have to try and find the kind of, the two scientists have to try and find a kind of artificial like work around to get back. And they basically, it comes about where you have like different versions of Johnny and you have to like line up certain items almost as like a kind of, not a tile puzzle, but almost a kind of one of the, I don't know what you call them, but you know, like a kind of like join the, join the dots again is wrong, but that kind of idea.
00:24:01
Speaker
And again, I'm like, I think there's something really interesting there. And I wish that had been like a kind of more puzzle solving one where you had all these items and you had to reason about, well, why would this fit? You know, how can that link? But again, it just felt very kind of perfunctory and quite limited. So again, like, it's encouraging to hear that, especially for the third game, maybe they did solve a bit more of these issues. But yeah, again, it's not it's not a deal breaker. It doesn't stop me from recommending the game. But I do think it is a slight issue. And it's something I think to be prepared about.
00:24:28
Speaker
You know, and it's a good thing because you just want to experience the story. It's just frustrating that there's like this artificial block on that. Because that's the kind of worry about games like this. I think this is probably something that we have talked about in our Narrative Versus Gameplay episode.
00:24:46
Speaker
where it's like a lot of games do struggle to try and balance between the narrative and the gameplay aspect. Is it going to be like Tetris where there's barely any story but it's a really fun game or is it going to be something like Edith Finch where it's kind of little gameplay but a lot of narrative going into it. I feel as if the narrative in this game is definitely the highlight of this entire experience which I know isn't like a broken record here but
00:25:16
Speaker
when you play through the game, as we've been saying, there are genuine moments where you do get frustrated because you do kind of feel held back, because you want to learn more about the story in a good way. You want to learn what's going on with Johnny, why he's acting like this, and in particular when you see that his memory has been fractured, that was really interesting because you thought, well what's missing in this huge chunk? And I remember trying to actually get over to the other side in that bit, and I got down to the bottom
00:25:46
Speaker
and then I kind of technically flipped through the map I think at one point or one of the tiles and then I was like okay this isn't the way I'm supposed
Game's Ending and Player Impact
00:25:53
Speaker
to go we have to go back the other way we have to do the gameplay again and it was just like oh god but before we go into the narrative and I absolutely gush about this game there's one particular moment I
00:26:05
Speaker
I'm quite curious to hear what you have to say about this Adam. The penultimate action scene at the very end, or maybe it is the final, but the scene at the end where you're trying to, and again spoilers for the story, you're trying to fight against Eva and she sends out all the quote-unquote zombie Evas out to stop you. I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't a big fan of that because again it felt as if they were trying to gamify
00:26:32
Speaker
the game, which I don't game about the game, it's a video game, but it was just kind of drawn away from the narrative. What did you think about that particular sequence? Yeah, I found it a bit annoying as well. I found the controls quite imprecise for trying to avoid things sometimes. I felt like sometimes some traps would just appear up and I was like,
00:26:53
Speaker
I don't see how I can avoid this. The controls aren't precise enough to let me do quick enough movement, so that kind of annoyed me. And as well, I think the big thing is that there's no stakes. It's funny because you talked about that you thought there was this timer to the game, but it turns out there's not. And in a way, I kind of always wished there had been a timer, because I think that would have made for a more interesting experience as well, where maybe you want to find out more about each memory, but you're like, oh, god, I've got this timer I'm up against.
00:27:18
Speaker
And I kind of wish that gameplay segment had something. And as far as I know, it doesn't like so it doesn't matter how long it takes you to fight your way past the zombies and avoid the traps and stuff. It doesn't have any bearing on the game. And so, again, it just feels it just feels like another artificial, like, lengthening element. And it's just like, oh, here's some game. Here's some gameplay because it's a game. And it's like, I don't want game. I don't want more gameplay. I just want to experience this this amazing story that you've made. So, yeah, another bit that I found I found quite frustrating.
00:27:48
Speaker
I would say that's probably the worst bit in terms of gameplay. I can see what they were trying to go for but I think probably the main issue here is just because it is the first game in the series. They don't get me wrong, they do try different things in the sequel but there's a particular sequence in that that really bugs me. And don't worry Adam, as I said when I strong arm you into playing it you'll know exactly what bit I mean but
00:28:16
Speaker
But going back to To The Moon, I don't know. I feel as if they could have scaled it back, but see for like a first attempt at a game like this and what they managed to achieve with it. I honestly thought they did a great job regardless, but I agree. I think they could have definitely toned it down. But one thing they didn't tone down was of course the narrative. So before, as I said, I go and absolutely gush over this game.
00:28:45
Speaker
Adam, what did you think of the story? Well as I said after the kind of rough beginning for me where I wasn't very engaged with it, very quickly I got so drawn into this.
Exceptional Storytelling and Emotional Impact
00:28:55
Speaker
The story unfolds very well and that you learn just enough through each memory to like to keep you drawing. So you learn a little bit more but you know it's not given away too quickly and so it builds up really nicely. I thought it deals with some interesting issues you know it there's a large focus this is on kind of marriage and as well one of the characters I think it's implied
00:29:14
Speaker
has kind of an Asperger's type syndrome. I think there's some really interesting kind of commentary about, especially about living with that, you know, about having a partner who has a condition like that. And yeah, I think it's just really well done. It builds, there's lots of really interesting, it hooks you really well because you are so intrigued about what, why is this is dying wish to go to the moon and why, but why can't he tell you it's a really great central hook.
00:29:38
Speaker
to kinda reel you in and then to build from there. And as I said, it unfolds, the story unfolds really well. I think there's some great characters in it. I think two scientists, like from the kind of rough beginnings for me with Dr. Watts, I think both scientists actually kind of grow as characters and become a lot more endearing and you kind of enjoy learning more about them, learn more about their relationship.
00:29:59
Speaker
it's fascinating to learn more about Johnny and there's some great moments there that are actually quite shocking and there's a real creepiness to this game that I did not expect at all and it starts with origami rabbits and there's just other bits as well peppered throughout the game that really just kind of actually put my kind of hair on it on end a little bit and I was just like it's just gonna turn into like a full-blown horror experience and
00:30:18
Speaker
Spoiler alert, it never really does, and I don't think it needs to either. I'm kind of glad that it doesn't devolve into that. I think the kind of creepy level of it, the undertones that it has are perfect. But there's also some, there's also some great humor in this game. There's a bit, one of my favorite bits is in the second half of the game, they're trying to figure out a way to get, you know, to spark this wish in Johnny to go to the moon. You just get this kind of montage of both doctors like showing up at a random point in his life and like screaming like, go to the moon.
00:30:47
Speaker
it's great I hear up there and all this stuff but it that really made me laugh so I think there's some really there's really funny moments there's really creepy moments there's really heartfelt moments really melancholic moments you get a full kind of kaleidoscope of you know emotions to this game I think it's done so well so I'll pass the floor over to you now because I feel it's only fair to just to hear your thoughts and give you a chance just to speak on this
00:31:11
Speaker
Oh, I love it. End of episode. Go play this game. 10 out of 10. Yeah, absolutely. But no, it would be a very short episode. I would have to make this a chance of shorts to just be like 10 out of 10. Go play it. I absolutely adore this story.
00:31:27
Speaker
This is, again, going back to what you were saying. When I started playing this game, I kept asking myself those questions. Is this the sad bit? Am I supposed to be sad at this bit? Am I supposed to be, you know, emotional? I was not feeling that for the first couple of minutes and it's a slow build-up but it slowly kind of grows on you until it grabs you and you think, oh my god,
Broader Impact and Recommendations
00:31:50
Speaker
this story is absolutely fantastic. It's got so many great elements
00:31:54
Speaker
Going back to what you were saying about Dr. Watts and Dr. Rosalind, I love their development in this game because to begin with, as you said, Neil is very much a kind of meme poster. He's very in-your-face. He's like, oh, look at me. I'm doing the kamehameha and the memento and everything. I totally get it. But he definitely does grow, because see the more you think about it, the way they talk to one another, it
00:32:21
Speaker
It definitely sounds as if Neil and Eva have been through so many experiences like this. You know, this isn't their first assignment or anything together. They're just stuck in this, I don't want to say nine to five job, because let's face it, it's not really a nine to five job, but they're stuck in this world where all they have to do is make somebody's wish come true.
00:32:44
Speaker
the later games. You can see other scientists and things, and even the mini-sodes which come along with this game. They are great, by the way. I don't know if you got a chance to play those at them. No, I haven't had a chance to play them yet. They are actually quite interesting because it gives you more insight into Sigmund Corp as an organisation and how they interact with other scientists and things like that. It's really, really interesting.
00:33:09
Speaker
but my point is that the grow throughout the game, like Leo goes from as a wise-cracking individual to someone who quite frankly by the end of it does have a heart of gold but he just struggles to express it in a serious way. And the same with Eva, she's got a heart of gold as well but she struggles to kind of express it at the cost of kind of jeopardising the task at hand.
00:33:36
Speaker
and I think that their character development is absolutely fantastic. But the other thing that I absolutely love is the relationship between Johnny and River who, as you said, it's heavily implied that River suffers from Asperger's Syndrome which
00:33:53
Speaker
I have to admit, this is something that is quite rare in games. This isn't a kind of thing that you see often in a lot of video games, and it's quite interesting to see the way Kangou shows this character, how he characterises her as being very hyper-fixated on certain things. She of course loves rabbits, which Johnny doesn't really know why she loves rabbits until it's revealed at the end. I don't know if we will go into the end, but
00:34:23
Speaker
you know, she's got all these origami rabbits. It definitely leaves bread crumbs throughout the game that you want to know more. You want to know why River's so obsessed with these rabbits. You want to know why Johnny wants to go to the moon. And I just want to point out, I love that scene.
00:34:39
Speaker
when you're playing as Eva and you're looking through the school, you're like, what the hell's the deal? And then you go into the auditorium and he's pretending to be like a guy from NASA. And he's like, the moon's so cool, you could go to the moon. And Johnny has zero interest. Johnny's just like, why would I want to go to the moon? I don't want to go to the moon. He's like, are you sure? It's cool.
00:34:59
Speaker
And this actually solves one of the main issues that I think people would have with the narrative, because you would think, what's the point in them going through all of this trouble? Why don't they just say, oh yeah, you won a ticket, here you go, here's a ticket to the moon, yay, you've been to the moon, now we can go home and sleep. Well if the founder mission doesn't work, there's a lot more to it. There's a lot more of that kind of human element of trying to understand why
00:35:25
Speaker
Johnny wants to go to the moon, rather than, you know, focusing on the solution. They're trying to focus on the why, rather than the how. And I think it's just absolutely fantastically done. My other question though is, what did you think of the twist in this game? Creepy is the wrong word for this one. You know when you reach that memory, you can just tell something bad is going to happen here. I think it's done really well. And it's that funny way that you want to see what's going to happen, but on the other level, you don't.
00:35:53
Speaker
It's not particularly a pleasant bit of the game to experience, I'll be honest, but I think it's done pretty well and, you know, as I said, you know something bad is going to happen and you can kind of, it doesn't so much come out of nowhere. It's not like a complete shock because you can tell something bad is going to happen and then as well, once events are in motion, you can pretty much write out what's going to happen here.
00:36:14
Speaker
But I think it is poignant and it does, I think it is an interesting thing and I think it does, it feels like a kind of logical thing in a way and it explained, it helps to explain some of the, you know, events you've seen, you know, after, especially why Johnny's mother calls him a particular name. It helps to flesh out Johnny a bit more and his experiences. So yeah, like as much as it is a pretty, you know, unpleasant event, like I do think it is pretty well done.
00:36:38
Speaker
it's definitely a lot more kind of dark and is macabre the right word would you say for this kind of particular sequence i don't again i'm struggling to like unnerving is maybe the foreboding i think is the one i would i would maybe
00:36:53
Speaker
because it's not it's not like I said it's not creepy and it's dark but it's not that kind of you know it's not that kind of dark but it is that sort of unnerving foreboding that you just know you just know something's not right and you know something important but something like horrible is gonna happen here
00:37:10
Speaker
because it was that moment where Neil and Eva are talking about the situation and they're like, well, how does Jordy have such a good recollection of this particular part? And I have to admit, the way they actually frame it, which I think is absolutely fantastic, the imagery for an RPG Maker game is absolutely amazing because on the one side,
00:37:33
Speaker
you've got like this white void where there's nothing and that's what's preventing them from actually getting to the other side of this like kind of chasm where there's you know the family home and everything and of course the main twist is and this is your last opportunity guys to back out but the major twist in this game is the fact that
00:37:55
Speaker
Johnny has a twin brother called Joey who unfortunately passes away because his mum accidentally hits him with a car as he's like playing with a ball, she's reversing out, she hits him, it's very tragic and because of that Johnny ends up getting put on beta blockers which severely limits his memory from that time period. It's an absolutely tragic moment because at the same time during that period of Johnny's life
00:38:24
Speaker
he ended up meeting River in a carnival and they have this absolutely beautiful sequence where they are sitting on a log and they're seeing how the moon looks like a rabbit, you know, like the moon is like the tummy of the rabbit and the stars around it make up the body and everything.
00:38:43
Speaker
It's just such a beautiful and innocent scene, but because Johnny was put on beta blockers, he also forgot a lot of those sequences from his formative years. So he believes that the first time he met River was when he went to school with her. And looking back on it, it is quite tragic because in real life,
00:39:05
Speaker
River starts to experience a lot of, to journey at least, very strange habits. Because she's got Asperger's Syndrome, she's not very vocal with her thoughts and her feelings. Because of that she does things like she cuts her hair.
00:39:21
Speaker
are sure, she tries to make all of these paper rabbits and things, and of course when she eventually passes away, Johnny's kind of left quite confused and emotional about it, he even confided his friends that she was getting worse by the day. And the main reason, the main reason which brought me to tears that he wants to go to the moon is because when
00:39:46
Speaker
Johnny ends up going to the carnival and meeting River for the first time. They both end up going to quite a secluded place underneath this tree and they're both sitting on the log because River, having Asperger's syndrome, she is found like this one place where she feels comfortable and I'm assuming that this is a place that she always comes when she goes to the carnival but then she sees Johnny and goes to kind of run away
00:40:12
Speaker
and then you know eventually they build up a kind of very limited but very powerful dialogue and they basically promise each other that if they should forget one another or get lost then they should regroup on the moon which is like the kind of turning point my jaw dropped and I was like oh my god that's the reason I was kind of like don't cry yet so don't cry don't cry did you feel the same way when that kind of revelation came up
00:40:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's an absolutely lovely scene, that one, and it's a great reveal. It's a perfect way to reveal the reasons behind why he wants to go to the moon, why that's his wish. It's just a lovely scene, and it's so well done. The dialogue is perfect, it fits in, tonally it fits in, and it's just a lovely scene. I think it's a real high point of the game.
00:41:00
Speaker
And then of course we get one of the other twists where Eva is so like hellbent on getting Johnny to the moon once they realise what's going on and why he wants to go to the moon, that she decides to try and rewrite his memories. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna be honest with you listeners, the first time I saw this scene, I was so angry at Eva because basically what she does is, oh, anger is the wrong word, maybe just frustrated because when I first saw this,
00:41:30
Speaker
She rewrites Johnny's memories so that River is no longer a part of his memories, but Joey is. She creates this entirely different reality where Joey's alive and he sees his brother, Johnny, get accepted into the
00:41:48
Speaker
Asa and everything, before I go on to say the twist upon the twist for that, despite the fact that Neil is of course trying to stop Eva from doing that, which I do think is a beautiful moment as well, it really shows a lot about his character, but when you saw Rivergate in the race, how did you feel about that?
00:42:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's very, it's very melancholic. It's very sad, but there was one line that stood out to me. I can't remember exactly how it's worded, but basically Eva says something to the effect of Johnny doesn't need River, but he needs his brother and in a way that they can exist simultaneously together. And, you know, I thought that added the kind of layer of depth and
00:42:27
Speaker
It just made it all the more melancholic because you thought, you know, it's great that he's got his brother back because he seemed to have such a close relationship. But it's so sad that River is basically being erased from his life. So to me, it added this just added this kind of great complexity to that scene. And it just made it that much more powerful and that much more affecting when you're like,
00:42:45
Speaker
I want to be happy for Johnny that Joey's alive and that he doesn't have to go through that kind of traumatic experience. But, you know, I'm so sad for Johnny for that. And, you know, for River, especially sad for Johnny, because you kind of have to feel sorry on his behalf because he doesn't know, you know, because River is basically being like erased from his life at this point. He doesn't know. And that just makes it all the more kind of tragic in its own way.
00:43:05
Speaker
I think as well the thing with Johnny and River's relationship is when you see it to begin with in some of the later memories, you can just tell it's not perfect by any stretch and there is a sort of level of unhappiness here between the two. We don't quite know. We know obviously that Johnny is confused by River's actions and frustrated to an extent. It does feel like it being with her has imposed a kind of restriction on his life
00:43:30
Speaker
to an extent, and you can tell there is some resentment there, which is a human reaction. I don't think we can really damn him for feeling that because it is just a human response to that situation. But then as we find that more and we understand more about River and the fact that she really struggles, she can't just say to Johnny, oh, do you not remember? We met as young because she can. That's because of the Asperger's syndrome or whatever it is she can't just
00:43:54
Speaker
take a course like that so she's trying to do other things makes it all the more kind of heartbreaking just to try and jog his memory but you see how happy it was like that from that scene where they first met and early on and the fact that she's getting a raise it just it's just it makes it ever such a melancholic and affecting experience that that whole bit
00:44:10
Speaker
It's a tough one to judge right enough because as you said on the one hand, he is getting his brother back, he's getting the life he always wanted, well maybe not the life he always wanted but he's getting this life that's very ideal, he has a very happy family life and I think there's one scene earlier and correct me if I'm wrong but it's when River and Johnny are getting married and I'm pretty sure his mum calls him Joey
00:44:39
Speaker
I think she has it a couple times but you're definitely right there's one moment at the wedding. And of course somebody asks what's that all about and they says oh it's my granddad's name and you know makes a lie. You pass it off and think alright okay it's just this woman's probably getting older maybe she's not with sound mind at this point and everything you know by the time you realise who Julie actually is because you can see even with the pixels
00:45:02
Speaker
to say this, see even with a game about pixels, the amount of emotion you get in the kind of happiness, sadness through the way the characters act, the way they talk, even the way kind of like at the very end where the spoilers but they achieve their mission and Neil ends up going closer to Eva and he tries to put his arm around her.
00:45:25
Speaker
and then she like bats it away and just that kind of like one second joke it honestly just made me laugh because i thought that is just such like a small but really funny moment but the other thing that i want to point out before we talk about the real end of this is the whole concept of the lighthouse if you've seen any promotional images and feel free to like google to the moon you know images and things like that
00:45:51
Speaker
you'll see like a lot of lighthouses and throughout the story River basically says that she believes that all the stars in the sky are lighthouses, so much so that the house where they live at is built right beside the lighthouse that they got married at and she is, River's like so obsessed with this lighthouse that she calls it Anya, she loves the lighthouse so much
00:46:18
Speaker
that she humanises it, you know, she gives it a name, they have like their first dance in it, which is another beautifully sweet moment. But the beauty of the symbolism for that of River saying that the stars are lighthouses, because obviously this is a story about a man who is unfortunately passing on
00:46:37
Speaker
he is going to die. There's no twist in that regard, there's no oh the last minute I managed to save him because the scientists at Sigmund Corps, they are not there to save their patients, they're not there to say oh we've got a cure for your cause of death or whatever, we are here to make this transition from death into whatever waits on the other side as comfortable as possible and it's very poignant because let's face it in real life
00:47:05
Speaker
Death is, again, I don't want to sound too morbid, but death is definitely something that we're all going to experience in our lives, whether it's people we know or of course ourselves. It's a very inevitable thing, but the whole beauty about the Lighthouses, the fact that Lighthouses are always in stories and of course real life, are basically guides.
00:47:27
Speaker
As you know, this isn't a chat tsunami exclusive, but the fact is, lighthouses are used as guides for these ships coming in. They might not know where they're going. This is exactly what the lighthouses slash stars are doing for Johnny, because all of these stars are all around the moon.
00:47:47
Speaker
and the moon, although it's not a star, it's like their destination. They are aiming for this. They're completely getting guided towards the place that they both said that they would meet again, and I have to admit that really hit me. I honestly thought that was just so… it was kind of a bittersweet ending because you know this man's dying, and throughout the story, you see this man's life support slowly fail because, you know, he is dying.
00:48:13
Speaker
at the very end there is just such a beautiful moment where it's a bit like, to kind of lighten things up a bit, it's like you know that meme of the guys who they're like sitting on a chair and they look bemused? That was like me when I saw Eva erase River but then when River came back at the end as a quote-unquote
00:48:36
Speaker
NASA person. I was the second part of that image where it's all the guys standing up and they're cheering and they go, yay! I was so happy to see that they hadn't cut out River entirely and they do say that, they say, oh it could have been a risk and everything. Fortunately it absolutely wasn't but the fact that
00:48:54
Speaker
that they get to spend their final moments together going to the place that they both promised each other that they would meet again if they got lost. It's just beautiful because I honestly thought they would be holding hands at the end and initially they're not and I was like oh okay fair enough but then you start to see the simulation breaking down, you start to see Johnny panicking you know he's looking thinking what's going on. River just like gives him one look
00:49:20
Speaker
just holds out her hand, he takes her hand, they end up reaching the moon and of course there's just that symbolism as the flat line sound plays over and then the music kicks in and everything. It's just beautiful. It's something that completely blindsided me, not in terms of the story itself but just the whole fact that I went into this game expecting something maybe good, maybe alright, but what I didn't expect was this
00:49:48
Speaker
absolutely emotional roller coaster where I was laughing, I was crying, I was you know like I wanted to share this game with so many people by the end of it to which I did do that with you Adam's apologies but I just I wanted everyone to know how beautiful and how amazing this story is and don't get me wrong it does have its issues you know it's not a
00:50:12
Speaker
perfect game but honestly it is very close and just one more point before I throw it back to you Adam but I love the storytelling in this game. The fact you start from Jodie's memories as an old man and you go back the way because I thought initially you'd be starting as a child or you'd be able to pick and choose where you wanted to drop and the fact you slowly go backward it's like watching a film
00:50:38
Speaker
and they're there so you're like okay but why are they arguing at the end of River's life and he's just like a lonely old man who needs a caretaker and the two children are there and it is just it's something different it's something new it's something different and honestly hats off to them they did an absolutely fantastic job for that and there's even like a good hook at the end
00:51:01
Speaker
have to say where it turns out that Neil has been taking painkillers. And we don't quite know, we don't find out in this game why he has taken them. They could believe that is a bit of a hook for the subsequent sequels and that's all I can really say for it. It's just such an amazing
00:51:20
Speaker
emotional rollercoaster and I absolutely love it. But before we wrap up, is there anything to find out the story? I think it was well said everything you just said there about the game. I couldn't agree more. The ending is beautiful and it's the perfect culmination
00:52:01
Speaker
to the emotional journey you've been on with these characters and through Johnny's life.
00:52:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think from a narrative perspective, it's so strong. And it's such an amazing experience. And again, like, you know, full full marks to the is it can go with it? Yeah, can go. Yeah. And I don't know if it was just him or if it was a team member, full marks, everybody who, you know, who devised the story and put it together because it did an absolutely excellent job.
00:52:22
Speaker
I do have my problems with the gameplay and I wish there was even less of the gameplay or there's more depth to it. But again, I can't say that's not a reason to play this. I would highly recommend anybody play this game. He said it's a short experience. It's relatively cheap.
00:52:39
Speaker
You know, it's on a couple of things, you get it on Steam, you get it on Switch, I think it's on like mobile devices as well, iOS and Android, so you can play it there if you fancy. And I think it would work, it works well on any, I played it on Steam, but I think it would work well on mobile or on Switch as well, it's that kind of game. And it's just, it's just a really beautiful experience and you know, it's very affecting, it's melancholic, it's funny, you know, as you said, you might get angry at some points. I mean, anger is in what's happening in the story, not angry at the game at all.
00:53:08
Speaker
So it's just, it's so well worth playing and I'm really, I'm so grateful to you that you brought it to my attention because it's definitely one that I think would have just passed by me. Maybe I would have heard about it later on, but I'm just so glad that you brought it to my attention and that I got a chance to experience it. And yeah, the narrative really, really lived up to the hype. So I would highly recommend anyone go play this.
00:53:29
Speaker
and honestly I really appreciate you for taking the time to actually play this game because when you recommended games like Edith Finch to me and you'll get me wrong I love that game as well I think it's absolutely fantastic and again we have a episode in that if you want to listen to that but I
00:53:48
Speaker
was a little nervous going into that because I thought oh what if you know I don't like it and it's one of your favourite games and then absolutely loved it, thought it was fantastic. So when it was kind of reverse when I really enjoyed this game and then I was like through tears I was like sobbing to you God Adam you have to play this game it's so good and you're like I can't understand what you're saying you're like it's so good but genuinely thank you so much for giving this game a chance.
00:54:15
Speaker
That was my pleasure because it was such a great experience. I'm so glad I've got to play it and I've got to experience it. And as I say, I would highly recommend it to anyone. There is that funny emotions when you find, I don't know, a film, a book, a TV show, a game, whatever, a piece of music that really resonates with you and that you really love. And you get that kind of desire to share it with other people, but also that fear of sharing it and
00:54:40
Speaker
and people are rejecting it, you know, I'm sure I've been through experiences like that where I've recommended, you know, things and people just haven't, it hasn't resonated with people like it resonated with me and that can be, it's a bit of a deflating experience but I do think it is, you know, it is worth, I think it is very fulfilling to, you know, to recommend things and to put yourself out there a bit and to say, you know, this is why I love this thing and try and get people to play it and maybe not everybody will feel the same way about you but you never know, there's a chance that, you know, that person might just have the exact same reaction to you and that's just, it's just a wonderful thing to
00:55:10
Speaker
I know I felt that way when I saw that you really had really enjoyed a Finch and I could see you went away and you did all this research on it, you know, and we were having conversations about it and that was really fulfilling. So I'm glad that, I'm just so glad that I got a similar experience of you playing to the moon. And yeah, just thank you again for sharing it with me and for opening my eyes to it. What's the equivalent of like a book club for indie games? Oh, we should, we should, are you saying we should get like a Chatsunami Hall of Fame? You know, like there's the joke where people read Tuesdays at Maury's.
00:55:40
Speaker
It's just like, yeah today we're gonna be playing What Remains of Edith Finch, again. It's like, yes, you're gonna play it until you understand the rich deep themes of this game.
00:55:51
Speaker
I like it. Let's make a book club or a Hall of Fame or something like that and get a chat. What's Oprah? Oprah's got the Oprah recommends book thing. We should get that. The Chatsunami recommends a film, game, whatever. That's actually not a bad shit. I just imagine us going into our local game shops and just putting stickers on things and stuff. We're like, what are you doing? Chatsunami recommend. And then just scuttling away. Yes. And just like a real red panda and talking sandwich.
00:56:22
Speaker
most confusing of all. See that's the tactic they're so confused that they don't have time to react and those red bubble stickers are sticky. They're not coming off without a mess being made. Exactly and at the end of the day if that's all you can ask for.
00:56:36
Speaker
But just to reiterate your point there, yeah, if you want to check out this game, check it out on PC, as you said, on Steam, the Switch as well, which I was really surprised at. And it's also on Android and iOS and apparently Linux as well, which I'm reading a lot as well and then I'm like, huh, neat. But yeah, anyway.
00:56:55
Speaker
if you get a chance to play it I would wholeheartedly recommend it so please go away play it and yeah that's all I can really say so yeah without any further ado thank you all so so much for listening to this episode I know it was a little bit heavier than
00:57:12
Speaker
usual for a Chatsunami episode but if you've got any favourite indie games that you would like us to have a look at or you would like us to talk about then if you go over to our website on Chatsunami you can contact us and yeah tell us what games you want us to talk about because I'd be really interested to hear what you guys have to say about this whether you like
00:57:35
Speaker
to the moon, whether you like what remains of Edith Finch, whether you have a completely new game that either of us have heard of, because we love our research, don't we Adam? I personally can't get enough of it, so give me a task. Please, I'm ready to go. And for one free email, you too can give a
00:57:53
Speaker
intellectually hungry Adam. I'm starving for my students just to do some research. Yeah, all I'd say is, do you have to do a specific reference style? I only do footnotes, I'm not doing Harvard. That's my one request. No Harvard, no Chicago. There we go.
00:58:13
Speaker
And I mean the reference systems, not the places, we love you. In case somebody takes that out of context, they know Harvard. In case we're big in the Ivy League schools. Exactly, exactly. None of your Yale's and your, I don't even know. Princeton's is a little big. Ah, thank you. My mind completely blanked because I was using the Simpsons as references there. I was like, oh yeah, that's the thing. Clearly not a Yale man, are you?
00:58:36
Speaker
No, I was more Harvard to be honest. But yeah, on that note, thank you all so so much for listening to this episode. If you would like to hear more of our awesome takes, then you can find us on Anchor, Spotify, iTunes, YouTube, really any good podcast app. So just look for the red panda under the name Chat Tsunami and we will see you there. Without any further ado, thank you all so so much for listening to this episode. Stay safe, stay awesome, stay hydrated,
00:59:05
Speaker
and shoot for the men.