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Bioshock Infinite
279 Plays3 years ago
In this episode, Fraser (Satsunami) and Adam discuss the iconic third entry into the Bioshock series: Bioshock Infinite. From it's deep themes to mixed gameplay, the duo discuss what makes this game truly memorable.
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chad Tsunami. Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Chad Tsunami.
Love for Bioshock Infinite
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm Sad Tsunami and God only knows where I would be if I didn't have my co-host. It is the one and only Adam. Adam, welcome back.
00:00:30
Speaker
So it's sweet words to start. Well, I'm ready to join you in keeping the circle unbroken and rooting out the false shepherd. So let's do this. Yes. Hashtag only. God, I feel so geeky, keep you seeing this. Hash, even as a joke, I'm like, hashtag only true, Bioshock Infinite fans will understand that reference. Only the true believers. Only the true Comstock worshippers.
00:00:56
Speaker
So yeah, damn. I'm honestly surprised it's taken us this long to actually cover Bioshock Infinite. It's definitely, and I'm assuming this is fair to say that it is like one of our favourite games. Yep, yep. Put the cards on the table right now. Yeah, it's one of my favourite games. I think it is for you as well. Oh yeah.
00:01:16
Speaker
A lot of love, a lot of love coming from the game from us both here. Absolutely. And I mean, before we get into the kind of details and the nitty gritty parts of it, it is one of those weird, do you know what that reminds me of almost?
Gameplay vs Story
00:01:31
Speaker
You know, well we did an episode on Deadly Premonition a good while ago and you know how we said that the
00:01:38
Speaker
I'm not saying the gameplay is as bad in Bioshock Infinite by any means, but basically we didn't like the gameplay, but we liked the story for Deadly Premonition. For me personally, I don't know what you think, but I would say technically for Bioshock it's
00:01:59
Speaker
like I find, like it's competent, don't get me wrong, like it's competent gameplay but it just, I mean this is one hell of a start saying, oh yeah, one of my favourite games, one of my, you know, absolute favourites, 10 out of 10. The gameplay on the other hand! It's like, ugh, like what do you think?
00:02:15
Speaker
Oh, if you just want to dive straight into the game, I think the thing about the gameplay is I see where you come from and I agree to an extent. I think if you were to judge gameplay and story of Bioshock Infinite, for me, as it is for you, I think the story is far ahead and shoulders above the gameplay in terms of what I like about Bioshock Infinite is much more love for the story than the gameplay.
Introducing Bioshock Infinite to New Players
00:02:38
Speaker
I think the gameplay is one of these things that you need to devote time to and you need to like understand all the different parts of it and actually like utilize them. It's not a thing like this is not like a kind of Call of Duty not to like I'm not it's probably gonna sound like I'm gonna slam like games like Call of Duty I'm not
00:02:58
Speaker
to do that I'm just saying like it's a different beast and then yeah I don't know do you want to just dive straight into gameplay now or do you want to do it? yeah true actually before like we do before we like start I don't want to say auto right off and I have to ramble so yeah
00:03:14
Speaker
I was actually going to ask, if someone came up to you and said, oh I want to play Bioshock Infinite, completely spoiler free and not going into in depth, how would you sell this game to someone? If someone random
00:03:31
Speaker
came up to you and was just like, yeah, I want to buy this game.
Promotional Material vs Final Game
00:03:34
Speaker
How would you describe this game to them? Well, but before I said that, what I would actually do here is I wouldn't say a word. I would take out my phone. I would go on YouTube and I would I would I would search for the truth from legend trailers. I don't know if you've seen those or both, which are like these four eighties documentary that they did is like promoting the game and discussing the world of Colombia, which is the world where the infinite set in.
00:03:59
Speaker
and different parts of it and to me are the greatest video game trailers ever made and i absolutely love them that's what i would show if i if i didn't have my phone on me or we don't have like i don't know i'm out of data there's no wi-fi around i had to describe it i would describe it as a story heavy experience with fantastic characters
00:04:19
Speaker
and an incredible setting. That's probably the way I would try and do it neatly. I mean, yeah, you've sold me. Give me one copy. See, I think the thing about this game is it's one of those ones that you look at and it just looks so... I mean, you know, it's no secret that we both like, you know, these kind of games that seem like really wacky and quiet.
Setting: Columbia vs Rapture
00:04:43
Speaker
You know, like, you know, Deadly Premonition and of course they're both Twin Peaks fans as well. You know, that kind of setting where you're like, what is this? What's going on? And you know, it's like, obviously they've established this with the first Bioshock, which, like, I haven't played a lot of the first Bioshock, but from what I know of it, it is completely different compared to this one, both in tone and, like, just...
00:05:07
Speaker
Basically they said, oh, first game, we're gonna set it underwater. That's it. You know, we're gonna have the city underwater. We're gonna explore all these themes, you know, fair enough. The second one kind of falls up on that. Support from what I've heard the list said about the second one the better.
00:05:24
Speaker
But the third one, or sorry, well, yeah, the third one technically, yeah, Bioshock Infinite, is just this weird exploration of, yeah, just basically someone trying to, I suppose, not only finding, you know, a particular person, but also finding themself in a city that instead of, you know, setting it underwater again, they're like, let's take it to the skies, and it's like, huh, okay game.
00:05:49
Speaker
And sorry, before we dive into it, can I just point out the promotional stuff for this game where they had the documentaries and kind of trying to make it fit in with our history, like real life history. And it's so well done in that regard, isn't it? And yeah, it's like our historians are shining through here, aren't they?
00:06:17
Speaker
And yeah, it's like there was another couple of trailers that they were like kind of... I don't want to say in-game. I think they were more like pre-rendered cut scenes kind of thing. And they were a lot different compared to what came out in the end.
00:06:34
Speaker
they introduce the main heroine in this, Elizabeth, they introduce Booker who is the gruff detective who's you know there on a mission and you know they introduce some of the other bosses who are not bosses but some of the other creatures who turn out to have less of a role like or rather a less significant role compared to yeah what we end up with in the final game which it's
00:06:59
Speaker
It is bizarre, but do you think that detracts from the overall game? I think it was a bit of a shock for some people who were really hyped by their promotional material and were expecting one thing and it was a bit of a shock to then see the game was, as you say, not radically different, but it was different from what those earlier promotional material showed.
00:07:22
Speaker
So I think like yeah, I mean like I think if you were to watch that like now before playing the game, you know You might be a bit like oh, this is a bit different and perhaps it will negatively affect how you find the game But certainly it was at the time like for a lot of people Yeah, I think a lot of people were kind of caught off guard But I have to admit though even though people were caught off
Spoiler Alert and Plot Discussion
00:07:43
Speaker
guard. It's not at the same levels of something like watchdogs Oh
00:07:50
Speaker
Well, I mean, I don't know. I think this game listed far more like emotions on both sides, you know, whether you liked it or you loved it or you hated it. Then something like Watch Dogs, I think it was, it wasn't universal, but it was a lot of like people just being like, oh, this is, this is a bit lame. You know, it was just disappointing. It wasn't like, you know, you weren't, you couldn't like, you couldn't like raise your emotions that much about it. Or maybe something.
00:08:16
Speaker
Just the one, like, I can't even remember. Yeah, like the one, you know, cosplayer for Watch Dogs. Just sitting there thinking Watch Dogs 4's coming any day now. But yeah, on that, like, depressing signal. So, before we get into it,
00:08:34
Speaker
I'll just point out now that we probably will be diving into spoilers so this is your spoiler warning right now because yeah we wouldn't be good podcasters if we didn't warn you guys before then because that's what I was saying to you before the stream it's like there is nothing worse honestly there's nothing worse than listening to a podcast or watching a video and then somebody spoils something without warning and they just go ah well I've spoiled anyway and you're like no
00:09:03
Speaker
In fact, you were saying that weren't you? Can I just say, if you haven't played this game and you want to play this game, do not type it into Google. One of the first things you'll see is a huge plot spoil in the People Also Asked section, so just don't do it. Or cover 90% of the screen so you could just see the top result to get you to the Wikipedia page. Honestly, I'm not sponsored by Amazon or game or anyone, but just go directly to the source.
00:09:33
Speaker
Like go directly to whoever you buy games from, buy it and trust me, you'll enjoy it. You will. Yeah. So yeah, well we dive into spoilers then. Let's go for it, yep. So yeah, it was a bit of a weird revelation when it turned out that Booker was a red panda all along. That's my favourite game of all time.
00:09:50
Speaker
I mean, yeah, exactly. Mine too. That's exactly why I took up the red panda. That's when you chose the red panda lifestyle. Yeah, I was like, I had to. Oh well. It's like, mother, father, I'm sorry. It's not a phase. It's not a phase, Mum. Yeah, the BioShock infinite red panda phase, you know.
00:10:10
Speaker
like four words I never thought I would say tonight. Yeah, let's dive into spoilers. Yeah, well, what would you say? Like, so you were saying earlier that definitely the story is Miles, well, not Miles, but heading shoulders above the actual gameplay. So do you want to explain like what you think personally is wrong with the gameplay? Or not wrong, but you know, like, fall short, yeah. I think there's a couple of things wrong with the gameplay.
00:10:36
Speaker
And I think it depends on what perspective you're coming at it from. I think if you played any of the other Bioshock games, the combat is different from that. And I think it's actually worse than the combat in the original Bioshock games. I don't think there's as much variety. You could have quite a good variety when you were doing the combat in Bioshock 1 and 2. A lot of times I played Bioshock 2, but I'm sure it was kind of the same thing.
00:11:02
Speaker
in the fact that for instance like you could pick up there was no weapon limit you could pick up all the weapons you know like there was there was a lot you could incorporate some elements of stealth into it there was a lot more like you could kind of plan and you could like ambush enemies um and kind of trap so there was a lot more kind of freedom to it in a way that this barjag infinite doesn't have barjag infinite is a much more kind of
00:11:23
Speaker
linear, I've heard it described as kind of an arcadey shooter, which is to an extent, in that there's no real opportunity to implement stealth. You can't really like devise plans, you know, you can't really be like, oh, I'm like, I'll set some things up to like, trap for enemies and stuff. So that way, I think it disappointed people, because it, I think I also as well, there's a two weapon limit in Barstree Infinite, which I think is a real detriment.
00:11:47
Speaker
And I think it's not something that suits a game like this. I think you really do want to be able to hold all the weapons at once in a game like this. So from that perspective, I think the combat is of a lower standard. If you're coming at it from not having played the other Bioshock games,
00:12:05
Speaker
but like, you know, you may have played other shooters, then it's also, it can also be quite a jarring experience. That was kind of what I was about to launch into at the beginning of this episode. I'm just so, it's a decent Call of Duty example. If you're a fan of Call of Duty games, and then you come into this, if you try and play this game like a Call of Duty game, you're going to have a really, really tough time. It's gonna be so difficult and probably, you'll be so frustrated, you'll probably give up with it. Because you can't play this like a Call of Duty game, you need,
00:12:32
Speaker
You need to be constantly moving. You need to learn the different systems. I know I said it was a bit of a dumbed-down experience, but there are still different systems in there in the combat. You have your weapons. You then have what are called Vigors, which are their version of plasmids from the first game. But I say superpowers just for reference. So you think you can shoot fireballs or electricity. You can fire crows out of your hands, things like that.
00:13:01
Speaker
And that adds layers to the combat. There's also quite a good sense of verticality to it. A lot of a re-combat arenas have these sky rails, which are kind of like monorails. And you have an implement called the sky hook, which means you can attach them and you can zoom around arenas and everything.
00:13:16
Speaker
As well, the character you're with, Elizabeth, has the ability to bring things from other dimensions into the area. So for instance, that could be like a turret, that could be a box of ammo, new weapons, just things sometimes like...
00:13:31
Speaker
sometimes things that can help you in the fight like allies. So all these things add together and you really kind of need to experiment with them and get used to using them because if you don't and you try and play it like a kind of traditional shooter it is going to kick your ass because it's hard, it's a hard game. And I think I could put a lot of people off if they're not maybe as au fait with the different mechanics in it.
00:13:58
Speaker
and don't really experiment with them then it can be a very frustrating experience.
00:14:04
Speaker
I'm just having flashbacks, as you said that too, when I streamed it on the channel. I can't even remember when it was, but it was a good couple of months ago. Because again, I thought, oh, great game. I absolutely love Bioshock. I want to share the positivity. I want people to know what this game's about. And then I played the combat, and I was like, OK, I have made several mistakes. I'm just going to draft up a YouTube apology video.
00:14:34
Speaker
Like, don't get me wrong, like, you're not coming to this game for the combat, which sounds weird. It's because, I mean, as I said, like, I'm coming from a, I think, from a very limited experience. Like, for example, I didn't realise that in Bioshock, the first one, that you could pick up all the weapons and cycle through them. Like, I have to admit, it's really annoying. Like, I found that very annoying. Even though, like, I played games like Call of Duty, Halo, you know,
00:15:02
Speaker
the standard FPS games and they also obviously do the thing where you only get like two weapons but for this game it is so annoying having like you know your tommy gun or whatever and then you have to pick up a shotgun
00:15:17
Speaker
or you have to pick up like a rocket launcher you know it's like having to cycle through them and then you've got like a kind of progression system for all of them and it's like you're never gonna put the... I mean some people probably did put the time in to upgrade it
00:15:33
Speaker
And I think that's what people might think. Like, oh you should have, you know, you know, Bioshock strawman in here. It's like, oh you should have, you know, upgraded your weapons. But even when I did upgrade the weapons, I didn't feel a sense of satisfaction. You know, it almost felt like a waste of money, like putting in. I mean, you got like damage increases and things like that, but I think the thing was, it's nothing really new, is it? Like, I mean, we've already had, so in, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I know you're the expert here, but in bio,
00:16:03
Speaker
This is why I brought you on. Losing my colour with the sweat. Just readjusting your white coat being like, oh yes, let me see. But is it plasmids in Bioshock 1? Yeah. So plasmids are like, they're basically just like power-ups, aren't they? In the first Bioshock. They're like genetically engineered power-ups. Like that's the excuse, they're just power-ups at the game.
00:16:32
Speaker
And as you were saying before, in Bioshock Infinite, instead of plasmids they use a thing called Vigors which are like these kind of like tonics that you drink and you get all these different abilities but I don't... I honestly felt quite bored with them. Like did you ever feel... or not think...
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah, no, sorry, go on. I think the problem with it is the good thing about the plasmids were they, not only did they add variety to combat, but they were really deeply ingrained into the game itself. Like the plasmids were that not to like, this is a mini, so I'm gonna get a mini spoiler for the first Bioshock here, but it's not really like a big one. It happens quite early in the game, you find out. The plasmids are basically one of the reasons the city fell apart.
00:17:14
Speaker
is because everybody started like drugging themselves up and they took too many of these and you know like they just lost all sense of themselves and became these like horribly like mutated and deformed creatures that now kind of roam what are called splicers that roam Bioshock so it was such an ingrained part of the world it was such an important thing
00:17:31
Speaker
Like, you know, it really added to it. The figures aren't as ingrained into bioshock infinite. And it almost feels like they were like, oh, we had plasmids in bioshock. We need to have something similar in infinite. Let's have these figures. And they are to an extent because it is quite cool, like when the first bit broke a kind of carnival and there's people promoting stuff. That's quite cool. But it's not the same way. They don't feel as integral.
00:17:57
Speaker
Vigors don't feel as integral to Columbia, which is the world that Bioshock Infinite is setting, as plasmids were so integral to Rapture, which is the city that the original Bioshock is setting. So I think that it almost just feels like a kind of like, oh, let's just put this in a copy paste job, rather than like, let's build something that feels organic to the world and really adds to it.
00:18:19
Speaker
Now I am like totally on your side with this one. It does seem and again this is me coming from like this limited experience of like the first couple of games but it does feel as if at the beginning you have like the carnival and everything and they're selling it like snake oil you know the whole like 1920s kind of
00:18:38
Speaker
Step right up, step right up, here we go, you know, giving out all of these vigors and things like that and it's like, oh cool, you know, this is interesting. And then later on in the game, kind of slight spoiler as well, but like you run into other people who use them, like a guy who shoots crows out his hands, guys who shoot, you know, fire and everything.
00:19:00
Speaker
And it just gets repetitive, it almost feels as if, oh right, these are enemy number one and two, you know, it doesn't
The Strength of Storytelling
00:19:08
Speaker
feel as if. Because the whole point of the first Bioshock was when they drank the plasmid, you know, this was a society that kind of crumbled. Like, what was the...
00:19:18
Speaker
I was going to sound so nitpicky, but what was the, like, Crowman's reasoning behind saying, ah, yes, I will have one of those tronics, please, the ones where I can fire crows and materialize over there, you know? You're like, that is very specific, sir. It's like, even from the 1920s, it's like, that is very specific.
00:19:40
Speaker
for something you want but I do agree it does feel like a kind of copy and paste but like before you know it's like all doom or it sounds like all doom and gloom are kind of bashing the thing i feel as if this is probably it's probably good like it's like a good um group therapy session being like okay let's get this out the way let's get
00:20:02
Speaker
but I would say that that is probably the weakest part of this game which usually if a game's gameplay isn't as fun you know you would think oh you know that means like Bioshock's a bad game then or Bioshock Infinite's a bad game and no it's not because this is one of the rare examples and correct me if I'm wrong by the way but it's like it's one of the few examples where the gameplay doesn't exactly hold up to expectations
00:20:30
Speaker
But my god, the story just... Yeah, but are we going to the story? Let's go into the story. Yeah, just like, cleans our palate of the...
Booker DeWitt's Journey and Columbia's Dark Side
00:20:40
Speaker
I mean, do you want to, like, describe how it starts? Okay, yeah. So, I mean, I think it has a great opening. So basically, you... If I forget any details here, please just jump in. Oh, absolutely. I'll forget. So basically, the game opens, you're playing as this character called Booker DeWitt,
00:20:56
Speaker
who as you said is a private detective i think from boston i think they always seem to be boston private detectives um but anyway yeah so he wakes up and he's on this middle he's in this rowboat um in the middle of a storm being rode out by these two other characters and you don't get introduced to them or anything um he has like a box in front of him
00:21:14
Speaker
And he's given these instructions to find the girl and clear it, wipe his debt. I can't remember. Wipe away the debt or something. Yeah. Yeah. Find the girl, wipe away the debt. And they basically, this couple, they're talking about things, but you're not really like, to us, I don't even remember the first time I played it, I never...
00:21:33
Speaker
what the heck they were talking about. But basically they drop them off at this lighthouse just off the coast of Maine, basically like right in the middle, not right in the middle of the ocean, but like far away from land. And basically Booker then you send into this lighthouse and you climb up
00:21:49
Speaker
and you find at the top of this lighthouse there's this chair and basically you you sit in it and it kind of it the um it's one of these it straps you in basically the um restraints come over the arms and everything and it turns out to basically be this i don't know for lack of a better word this kind of lift almost like the the elevator and like the
00:22:06
Speaker
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was having like a shoot-booker like get into the sky and basically he enters the city of Columbia which is this city that is basically city in the clouds it's been created by created at the end of the 19th century
00:22:23
Speaker
and is this floating city that is built upon all these kind of like a combination of like kind of hot air balloons, pseudoscience, these other kind of things that just you know come together to make this floating city and it was once part of the United States but
00:22:40
Speaker
at the start of the 20th century seceded from the United States and disappeared into the clouds and it's run by this mad religious fanatic called Zachary Comstock and basically it's a city where the American founding fathers are worshipped as gods pretty much. It's a heavily racist society, heavily class bound and very much
00:23:03
Speaker
like a quote unquote patriotic american white a white patriotic american society um you know preserving preserving all that's great about america uh basically you know um and yes a booker enters his world and he has to go find this girl called elizabeth
00:23:20
Speaker
And yeah, I don't know if you want me to go any further or not. No, can I just point out, see when you were talking about the beginning and how, you know, like how it's like the worst of like, like the worst kind of American values, let's just say, of that time period. Because at the very beginning, as you said,
00:23:37
Speaker
you start off in this horrible kind of like storum and you know you're rowing for your life with... or not for your life but you're rowing with these strangers and then it's like it's gloomy it's like it's like a day in Glasgow you know it's raining
00:23:56
Speaker
like there's people talking to you who don't know what they're saying and you're like it's like leave me alone I just want to go up this lighthouse and you go it or you go into as you said this light um or not lighthouse but you go into like the top of it and you go into the chair and as you said you get
00:24:12
Speaker
propelled up into the sky and it's like you are just racing straight to the top and all of a sudden you break through the clouds and all of a sudden it's just like this tranquil peaceful setting isn't it it's like you see the sunlight you're just like emerged you see the sunlight you see the floating city of columbia it's it's just beautiful therefore more than this even today i think it still holds up
00:24:39
Speaker
I think it is absolutely just such a beautiful, like just such a beautiful setting, honestly. And then you land and you get the, it's basically a choir rendition of Will the Circle Be Unbroken, isn't it?
00:24:58
Speaker
and it's like you walk through this kind of church where it's basically overrunning with water and initially you think, oh god, who left the taps on? But no, it turned out, yeah, it's supposed to be like that, so you're like, alright, okay, and there's all these candles and it's really peaceful. And you see this kind of sliver of a society that kind of alludes to being a Utopia?
00:25:23
Speaker
Like, you know, everybody's getting along, you know, there's children at the carnival, there's, you know, like, happy music. There's even one moment which I have to point out is my favourite moment in the game. If not my favourite, one of, where you're walking by.
00:25:41
Speaker
and all of a sudden this airship, like a very tiny one, rises up out of nowhere and there's a barbershop quartet on it and they start doing a rendition, like a barbershop quartet rendition of God Only Knows by the... is it The Beach Boys?
00:25:58
Speaker
yeah the Beach Boys and it's just amazing it's like immediately as soon as I heard that if you haven't heard it like go look up Bioshock Infinite God Only Knows is like one of the best remixes I think I've ever heard in my life it's just you know it's just sucked me into this like
00:26:17
Speaker
you know this atmosphere and this setting and you wanted to explore more you wanted to see and you thought okay this is really cool what's going to happen next and then as you said it's like it's a very racist and misogynistic just everything wrong
00:26:33
Speaker
and you don't realise that until you get to basically you get to a scene where someone gives you like a baseball you know and you're like oh cool when it's like oh you get to throw the baseball and it's like what we're gonna throw at we're gonna throw at you know targets or anything or you know what or is it gonna be like you're one of those ones where you're sitting up like a guy is sitting on a chair above a pool of water and you know you throw it at the target like what's it gonna be and then
00:27:00
Speaker
all of a sudden this is when like my jaw dropped and I was absolutely shocked where they bring out like an interracial couple like just bound to these like stakes and they're all like jeering at them saying oh let's throw things at them and things like that and it's just like jesus crazy like what did you feel like i'm curious to hear like what you felt you know it's a very shocking it is a sorry no no no go for it so it's a very shocking
00:27:30
Speaker
like introduction. And I think it's very, I think it's very, I think it's very effective in two levels, because it's shocking for two, two reasons. Number one, as you say, is like, is the subject matter? Yeah, all of a sudden, you know, it's maybe been hinted at a little bit, you can tell there's something about this place, you know, it's like these giant statues of like, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, I think that was Jefferson's, the other one, all holding different, like, different things, like a sword and a key and a scroll, I think, to show the different values.
00:27:57
Speaker
of Columbia so you know there's something a little bit off but then as you say you reach that a bit and then like not only are the other couple like are tied up and everything every year but there's like all this like horrifically racist imagery like around like all these like horribly stereotypical like like monkey drawings and stuff like pop up around them and everything like like you know representing images of that time and everything
00:28:21
Speaker
And so that is a shock. Then afterwards, like, so basically, like, not long after that, you get kind of apprehended, but the police try to apprehend you. Yeah. And one of the police is holding, it has like that implement called the Skyhook, which I mentioned earlier, which is like a spinning blade. And it's almost like if you imagine the blades from Assassin's Creed, but rather than a blade, it has like a spinning, a spinning, like sort of a saw on it. Yeah, it's like an octable beebly, doesn't it?
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. That's a good reason for it. And then basically Booker jams the police officer's head into it. Into the Skyhook thing. And it's an incredibly brutal scene. And so that's an old shock as well because this is a pretty brutal game in terms of the violence. It is quite influencing.
00:29:06
Speaker
And those two things are shocks, but I think it is effective at showing you what Colombia is built upon, the values it's built upon, and kind of the brutality that sits underneath this exterior of order and calm and peace and everything like that.
00:29:26
Speaker
And I mean, I'm just thinking in terms of the way, like, after that, you know, you just, you know, you've seen, like, that imagery, you see, you know, this guy get his neck snapped by this spinning blade and everything, and you're like, oh Jesus, I've got to get out of here, and you have to jump away and escape. And, I mean, you could really split this game up, couldn't you, like, plot-wise into, like, probably, like, a couple
Elizabeth's Role and Powers
00:29:49
Speaker
of sections. Like, you've got the first half where you're looking for the girl.
00:29:53
Speaker
as it keeps getting referred to or when I say it I mean like the mission that he's been put on but you never really get told do you? You just get told like the ominous bring the girl to wipe away the debt and it's like and again that brings you into the mystery and you're just like what's going on here you know who are these people? Why are they chasing me? It's like please don't shoot me. One thing to point out just before we continue with the story
00:30:18
Speaker
There is a tattoo on your character's hand. It's like two letters, A.D. And when you get into the city, you see there's posters everywhere. So this is why you get caught by the police. Because you've got this huge A.D. at the back of your hand. And it's not because you ran out of money before you could get D.C. putting these other hands. Yeah, a little bit of music humor there.
00:30:44
Speaker
as I'm well known for and yeah it's like they've got posters everywhere that say like you know this is the mark of the devil isn't it the mark of the beast yeah the fall shepherd so that's why everyone's a bit wary of them and they're like yeah let's take them down so you're basically on the run for most of the game up until you get to let's face it
00:31:08
Speaker
One of the best characters in, if not the game, in Gaming as a Whole. That of course being Elizabeth, who is the hero.
00:31:16
Speaker
that you are supposed to find and becomes both one of the most useful companions in the game and she's just such a good character. Well we just talk about Elizabeth just now and just get out of the way. Yeah sorry I'll hand it to you after my ramble there. No well I mean I totally agree with you like Elizabeth is a great character and I think
00:31:40
Speaker
booker do it as well like the character you play as is. They're both such great characters and they both have a great kind of chemistry and bond and are like probably my favorite pair in a video game. Yeah, and Elizabeth, she just seems like a really kind of fully developed character in that like, you know, she has so much personality to her.
00:31:57
Speaker
When you first meet Elizabeth, she's basically been, like, locked in this giant statue, which is basically like, it looks like a monument when you first see it, but it's actually a prison for her, as she is termed the Lamb of Columbia, and basically the aim is to stop the full shepherd, i.e. you, from, you know, corrupting the Lamb.
00:32:16
Speaker
leading her astray so she's basically been imprisoned in this in this in this prison in the middle of this statue and as you as you enter the statue you see that basically it's almost like a laboratory on the outside and there's there's like the glass is like a two-way is that what you call a two-way thing where like or is it a one-way thing where like she can't see through it but people can look in and like spy on her yeah and observe her and everything and the whole apartment that she's living in has this um has this system so you really feel like
00:32:45
Speaker
like pity and empathy for her to be like her whole life has been has been in this you know has been solitary in this in this kind of prison just being observed and not even knowing and then like but you realize how like smart she is as well and she is capable and I think the great thing about it as well this could have so easily come and become like the game could have become an elongated escort quest you know as
00:33:08
Speaker
A real favorite of quote favorite of of gamers. Yes quote quest but like you don't the thing you don't ever have to worry about is but she should take care of herself and she's actually helped you and that she will find you'll find ammo for weapons I said like she can materialize objects into the into the world to help you out and She's just like they just have such great
00:33:31
Speaker
like dialogue together her and Booker and you realize what complicated characters both are and both have different motivations and Booker basically starts off by tricking her into like thinking he's taking her away without actually telling her that he's there to like you know collect her for somebody else to wipe away debts and then that gets found out and they
00:33:51
Speaker
They come from these diverging objectives to converge together to try and survive and discover more about Elizabeth and actually more about Booker as well. They just work so well together, the pairing.
00:34:05
Speaker
And there is a reason for that, but we will get to that. But yeah, it's like, as you said, when you said that, I think the infamous example I thought of was like Resident Evil or something like that, where it's just like,
00:34:21
Speaker
yeah it's like she could have easily been like this stereotypical damsel in distress character that's always getting because whenever she does get like kidnapped away like or she disappears from the game it's like there's a valid reason for it i mean there's one part in the game where so in the first Bioshock game you had um big daddies which were like the they were like just basically creatures in diving suits weren't they
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah, almost like lobotomised men. We've been programmed for one specific task. Yeah, and it's just absolutely horrific creatures stomping around in Rapture, which is like the city under the water in the first game.
00:35:03
Speaker
but for this one they cut back on that concept and they only have one creature called a songbird. I have to admit this is like one of, like there's a couple of issues I do have with the story none like major enough for me to say this is terrible because it's not but like I feel as if they severely underutilized the songbird in this game like it appears like a handful of times
00:35:31
Speaker
and it doesn't have much of an impact. I think towards the end it kidnaps Elizabeth again, but that's about it. The rest of it's just like, it appears, it breaks the ship, you know, you fall, you go to next setpiece. It's just there, you know? It's not a very good guardian, that's what I'm saying.
00:35:50
Speaker
It's like he does a poor job. Two out of ten isn't a big daddy. So no, two out of ten. But yeah, it's like once you actually get to, you know, talk with Elizabeth and they're just all back and forth because Booker, like as you were saying, he's like such a good character.
00:36:08
Speaker
in the sense he's like this kind of world weary detective who's like fought in a war and you know he just he just wants to like clear away his debt whatever the debt may be because we don't know like what his debt is it's almost like in the first one with the you know the
00:36:24
Speaker
certain phrase which I won't repeat to avoid spoiling but you know it's like the phrase and that where it's like drilled into you that he is desperate to get this girl back to New York and there's a whole back and forth that she's very she's not overly naive although she does like take objections to Booker suddenly yeah shooting people but then obviously she has no choice because yeah if
00:36:49
Speaker
It's like a kill or be killed situation. And she, up until a certain point, she doesn't really kill anyone herself. She's very much just there to help you and kind of assist you by opening up what you were saying before this power called tears, isn't it? So she rips open tears in the fabric of reality.
00:37:10
Speaker
And yeah, that can bring in things from other timelines, which initially is cool. And it is. It's cool throughout the game, but it does get a bit confusing. Story-wise. It gets re-used. Sorry, in terms of the actual gameplay, I think it's fine there. I think in terms of the story, I think it gets the kind of big moments of tears are used. I think it's a bit overused to the detriment of the story I would argue.
00:37:39
Speaker
I would agree with that I have to say because as I was saying in the first part of the story it's solely focused on you finding Elizabeth and then you do and you come across this like I suppose rebel group I want to say called the Vox Populi who are just basically freedom fighters you know it's like they're being persecuted and everything and
00:38:00
Speaker
there's like a whole like honestly like kind of on the side tangent here but there's like so many kind of audio logs that you can collect and that basically explains why the Vox Populae are fighting you know and it talks about their leader, their revolution, their plight you know it's just it's fantastic and you see this you know this group of like you know the people who are clearly under armed and everything so they go to try and arm them
00:38:28
Speaker
But then they realise the only guy who could have helped them is, well, no longer with us. So you think, okay, how are they going to get the arms now? To which Elizabeth, you know, she clicks her fingers and she's like, I've got an idea. And then she opens up a tear. Yeah, this is when things start to get screwy, isn't it? Where they start dimension hopping, essentially.
Themes of Time Travel and Social Commentary
00:38:52
Speaker
I think that's my real issue of the story is that I think the first, I don't know, maybe the first quarter of the game, maybe the first third, like there's a lot of really interesting kind of social commentary about the world of Columbia and like, you know, there's an evil at the kind of core of it and the value system and like the fact that it is this like,
00:39:19
Speaker
extreme, it's this idea of American exceptionalism taken to the extreme of white America protecting itself by oppressing all the races and trying to keep that purity and everything, that American dream that they're fighting for.
00:39:37
Speaker
And there's a lot of interesting commentary there that, along with a lot of things of commentary on class and race and everything, that unfortunately gets kind of swept aside the minute the time travel is introduced. And the game very much for a large chunk of the middle part becomes very heavily focused on different dimensions and time travel, and it becomes a bit of a mess. And I think it's a real shame that the kind of
00:40:02
Speaker
that commentary is lost to what extent it gets basically pushed to the back and doesn't really come back again which is a shame which is something I think the original Bioshock was a real strength of it and that throughout the whole of the game basically it was a kind of commentary on self-interest and like morality and you know
00:40:24
Speaker
How far should people be held back from doing things? An ethical question throughout the whole thing. It's just a shame that they didn't see fit to keep that kind of commentary aspect. Well, for me, maybe people disagree, but for me, that was, I found the most interesting. I really love the first part of the game so much because of that, and it's just a shame it gets lost. I totally agree with you, though. I have to admit, I remember when I shroomed this game,
00:40:52
Speaker
as I said, it must have been months and months ago. And there's one particular, when you were talking about American exceptionalism and that kind of idea of
00:41:02
Speaker
you know just like really horrible values like really outdated kind of like values that were kind of being like you know promoted in the game like in certain aspects like for example there was a scene that i played through and i felt really awkward going through it but i think that's kind of the point where you basically go through this museum of like basically columbia's like um like exploits you know victories quote unquote
00:41:31
Speaker
yeah where it's like all of their military you know victories let's just say where it's like they've got the racist and like caricatures of like chinese people from the boxer rebellion you know indians things like that just horribly over the top and again going back to the first scene and everything and they build up like such a
00:41:53
Speaker
look at how great we are and obviously you can see the obvious symbolism of they are literally above everyone else and that's how they kind of view themselves like Columbia views themselves or the citizens view themselves as these kind of chosen people and
00:42:10
Speaker
you know led by this Zachary Comstock who let's face it is just a religious zealot you know he's saying this is what you should do that's what you should do while himself being this horrible horrible man and we will get to him but yeah it's like this idea that they are
00:42:27
Speaker
their own kind of thing, their own society, they are going to promote all these things. And you can kind of see why there's this freedom fighting group that are fighting against this. You're like, oh great, that's perfect. But then, as I said, when you go to find the arms for them and then the guy's dead and it's like, right, okay, open a tear, dimension hot,
00:42:54
Speaker
And then the game just gets very, I don't want to describe it as saggy, but you know what I mean? It just sags in the middle where it's like, it turns out in this dimension Booker died and he was like considered a martyr and the main, you know, like the leader Daisy, is it Daisy Fitzroy?
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah she is you know like she's like really leading a very successful campaign and she doesn't want Booker getting in the way of it but it all just becomes that for the most part I mean there's some like detours where the songbirds like finds them both and then it kind of pulls it back on track but until then it's kind of it sags with this whole you know like they turn out to be no better than
00:43:44
Speaker
the people that were persecuting them in the other dimension and it's like the whole back and forth but I do agree with what you're saying that it's like all of these really interesting themes kind of get lost with a lot of the game. One of the other examples I can think of is when you literally have to fight a ghost.
00:44:05
Speaker
and it's like honestly like I mean did Bioshock the first one did that have ghosts? It had like you know I don't think it had ghosts per se but I think there's a couple moments where like you almost like relive moments that have happened but it's not it's not like ghosts per se I don't really want to go too far into it because I think maybe a bit spoiler a bit so
00:44:31
Speaker
That's all right, but not the same way you don't fight a ghost three times. I was like, none of that. I hated that so much. You have to fight this ghost and it's like the biggest bullet sponge I think I've ever had the displeasure of ever having to fight. I was like... We animate enemies as well.
00:44:51
Speaker
I was like, when I was streaming that I was just like, why, why? I was just repeating like, why, why are you a thing? And it's like something to do with a machine and it's like, I don't know. Because I mean, obviously I know nothing about dimension hopping or anything.
00:45:09
Speaker
That wasn't my, you know, that wasn't my, like, university degree, you know, surprise, surprise. But, like, yeah, they tried to make it kind of realistic in the kind of setting of the world to be like, oh, we've got all of these, like, huge, huge machines that can kind of, you know, sustain this, like,
00:45:31
Speaker
ability to you know jump from dimensions and kind of explore because what I said at the beginning that one of my favorite moments is when they sing um when that barbershop quartet rather sang god only knows and you might be thinking but that song came out in what like the 80s maybe like 70s 80s
00:45:50
Speaker
Yeah, and you're like, well, how could they be singing that? And you think, oh, maybe it's just an easter egg. But no, throughout the game you get like remixes of songs like, uh, girls just want to have fun. Um, I think there's a Frank's Natural one. I could be wrong. Um, yeah, it's like, yeah, even while the circle being broken, is that not a country song originally? Yeah, it's like a Taylor family, I think, too. Yeah, I was really surprised.
00:46:16
Speaker
I was really surprised because that's such a beautiful song when it's like sung like a choir and like a very religious, reverent song. And then you actually hear the original and you're like, oh, OK. Fair news, fair news. But the reason being that there's this creator called, is it Jeremiah Fink? Yeah, Jeremiah Fink, his brother.
00:46:39
Speaker
Yeah and they're like listening, like they hear tears opening up and it turns out the tears are like showing them kind of glimpses of the future and kind of future songs so they're like taking that melody and then they're adapting it to their you know time which I thought was brilliant personally I thought I was so clever.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah, because it's like, they didn't have to do that. Like, this is something that they could have completely cut out the game, but because they decided to add it, it just added that whole layer of, wow, this is like, it wasn't gonna be a great game.
00:47:16
Speaker
you know, it's like, it's building on the atmosphere, it's building on the setting. Yeah, it is just a shame. Like, I wouldn't say like the middle bit, middle slash end, I wouldn't say that ruins it, per se, but it definitely slogs along. Like, I feel as if it's one of those moments where it's just you're going from set piece to set piece and you're like, right, okay, we're going here, we're going there. I mean, I think the only bit
00:47:42
Speaker
that really got me back into it is when Elizabeth gets kidnapped and you have to find her in the, is it the Asylum? Yeah, it really comes back together there. Oh yeah, because it's like it completely tears you away from the Vox Populi story. But that's a weird thing because, sorry, just kind of backtracking on the story. There is a scene where you see, funny enough, the person we just mentioned, Jeremiah, I think,
00:48:08
Speaker
you see him like get stabbed by the resistance leader and she grabs a child and basically is threatening to like kill this child and it's like it's such like a tense scene you're like don't do it I'm gonna do it don't you do it and then like two seconds later Elizabeth comes out of nowhere and just you know just stabs her in the back and yeah it's like this is the first time she's ever you know like taking a life and
00:48:35
Speaker
I mean, it kind of has an effect on her for a while. And then she just kind of says, right, OK, let's move on. I'm bored now. I want an airship. It's a real shame because I think there's there's definitely interesting stuff in the Lux Opuli story. And I think there's an interesting comment to be made there about because, you know, if you look through history, there are plenty of examples of people who have
00:49:01
Speaker
like gone who have started movements or whatever with noble intentions, you know, of freeing people and taking down autocratic regimes and everything. But they have these movements have morphed into things which are just as bad or maybe even worse. The thing they've destroyed if you look at things like the French Russian revolutions, you know, so there's an interesting story in there about them. But it's just a shame that it doesn't. That's not like the reason it happens is like the reason that the Vox Populi
00:49:31
Speaker
turn against you is because Daisy Fitzroy, their leader, phones you up and basically says, oh yeah, the Booker in my world was died as a hero, and you're basically muddying the plot. That's the reason they come to kill you. It just feels like such a forced reason to have this new faction attack you.
00:49:52
Speaker
And I think there is actually a logical way for them to have done it. And a lot of people had a problem with what happened to Daisy's character, in that she seems to have a complete 180 character shape that feels unnatural. And it does to an extent... I think to an extent you can kind of see what she's doing and stuff, and you can be like, okay, that kind of makes sense. It is very sudden.
00:50:15
Speaker
And like, you know, it does, I think, in a way, cheapen a character who was quite interesting when you first get into them and actually seems like quite a complex character. It kind of cheapens that and kind of takes it out. And plus, like, I don't know a spoiler, she's not in the game for that long. It's very much you meet her, you go through this section.
00:50:36
Speaker
Which, by the way, is one of the sections where this part of the game is set, I think is the best, I would say, in the game Finktown. I think it's such an incredible location. And one of my, probably one of my favorites in gaming. But, like, she's in it for, like, that section of the game, and then, as you say, Elizabeth kills her. And that's kind of it. Like, you know, she's kind of referenced, and you find out a bit about her backstory afterwards, but, you know, it's just a shame. It's a shame for, like, an enge- And the same with Jeremiah. Really interesting character when you meet him for the first bit. And he's also killed. Daisy Fitzroy kills him.
00:51:07
Speaker
before Elizabeth kills her and he's just done away with it and you've just been taken out of the story. I think the main kind of injustice I suppose of the game, it almost rules as if, so basically when you're getting chased by the Columbia and the authorities really, the police, you're getting chased by guys in blue coats.
00:51:29
Speaker
But when you dimension hop and you go to where the books pop you like, or, you know, like, the head honjos, you're getting chased by people in redcoats, and it's like, that's genuinely how it feels. Like, there's no differences. I mean, technically. So this is a thing that kind of arcs me slightly. There are technically differences.
00:51:49
Speaker
but they're like very aesthetic ones so it's like instead of like just a normal gun that's a gun that's been like wrapped in the red tape or it's like a makeshift gun but it still operates the same as like a machine gun and you're just like there's no real like yeah there's no real kind of substance there with it and you're like yeah just
00:52:11
Speaker
It's just a shame. Obviously I'm not expecting them to go day and night reworking the combat system just for this part of the game, but I don't know, it just felt a bit unnecessary. As you said, I was just going to agree with you, it's just a nice, thitting change. The only thing I quite like is that you encounter, basically. One thing I think is quite good about the combat
00:52:37
Speaker
in what I'll say in Bioshock Infinite is that there's a much wider variety of enemies in this game than there was in the original.
Enemies and Narrative Complexity
00:52:43
Speaker
Bioshock, where it's a fairly limited pool of enemies you fight, this one has quite a few different ones. And I think one of the best ones is an enemy called the motorized Patriot, which is like a kind of automaton style thing. And when you first encounter them, it's basically an automaton autonomous George Washington, like this kind of George Washington doll that's been motorized and given like a Gatling gun, basically,
00:53:04
Speaker
And, you know, it's a really cool enemy, actually. I really like it. And one cool thing is when you enter the Vox Populae timeline, that's been changed to it's no longer George Washington's Abraham Lincoln now. Yeah, when the Vox Populae have them, it's Abraham Lincoln, which is actually a very clever bit of a very clever kind of change and actually good for what makes sense of the story. Not quite like that, but I totally agree. It's just a step into the rest of it. You know, as you said, I've read on the guns.
00:53:31
Speaker
Yeah, and a bit of like, overturned furniture in the halls and you're like, oh great, this is... yay! Fun times! But yeah, as we were saying, it definitely picks up when you get to the asylum, which I don't quite know what the asylum actually was for. Is it for Elizabeth herself? Or was it just like... I think that's what it starts off as, but I mean, we jump into more spoilers here.
00:53:57
Speaker
Yeah, so I know we've gone into a lot of spoilers, but this is probably the point where we're going to go into deep dive into serious spoilers. So again, if you haven't played the game, honestly, I would recommend it. Or if you don't want to play the game after our rant about the system, even watch playthrough or whatever on YouTube genuinely. Watch that. Now he's playthrough.
00:54:21
Speaker
Yes. Well, no, don't watch that. No. I was like, did I do well on that? No, I died too many times. No. Wait until we play it. You know, on T-posing. Until then. Yeah. So we're going to dive into spoilers. So, yeah. Well, let's go for it. Sorry. OK, do you want to explain this to them?
00:54:43
Speaker
Now I'll let you explain it because I'm just having flashbacks to the only jump scare in the game. It's like when you go to the heart of the asylum and there's all these like creatures with like the horns on their heads and things. It's a really cool design but it's like you turn on the machine and then you turn round and then all of a sudden this like guy standing behind you and he just screams in your face and you're like oh my god.
00:55:12
Speaker
I genuinely jumped on a stream, I was just like, oh god, BS Sonic, back to you. So as a spoiler, basically, you don't realise it when it first happens, but you're kind of like, you're chasing after Elizabeth, who's been kidnapped by the songbird, and you run into this basically this bank of fog, and then like, you're running through it, and then you appear at the other end, you appear at this like, dilapidated building, and it's like snowing, and it's winter, and you enter it, and you see all these like, basically people like,
00:55:40
Speaker
who are wearing like Benjamin Franklin and George Washington masks and everything and you kind of realize you realize it's an asylum and almost like a re-education center and what has happened is that actually you've gone forward you've been taken forward in time
00:55:56
Speaker
I think like it's about 60, 60 or 70 years. I think it's now in the 1980s. Yeah. That you're now ahead in time. So you don't realize at first you find out at the end, but you kind of, you crawl through this island looking for Elizabeth and basically you encounter, you encounter a much older Elizabeth who is basically, and the basic story is that like in the real timeline as Booker, like Booker was always killed by the songbird. So he was never able to rescue Elizabeth.
00:56:26
Speaker
who was basically like re-educated in this place by Comstock and so she became like the heir to Columbia basically and she's now what she's done is she's now like waged war on the world below and you kind of escape where the city of Columbia is attacking New York City and the city's on fire and everything and you find out that like the old Elizabeth has like brought has like used her powers to bring you forward to basically save her
00:56:51
Speaker
because she doesn't want this to be the future and basically then she then puts you back into the moment where basically Elizabeth is being re-educated. It's quite a disturbing revelation when you come across her and you see, you only see her outline, you don't always see her face or anything.
00:57:07
Speaker
and then you get closer and it's like, oh my god! It's like, what happened? And it's like, oh right, time travel, whoops, sorry. It's interesting, oh sorry. No, I was just gonna say, do you know what it reminds me of? Have you ever seen the film Hook? Oh yeah, long time ago. Yeah, it's like, you're the very beginning where it's like Peter Pan goes back to, you know, to like take Wendy and the adventures but she gets gradually older and then at one point he goes to visit her and she's just turned into Maggie Smith and it's like, oh my god!
00:57:38
Speaker
It's a bit like that, it's like you go around and it's not Maggie Smith, but you know, it's probably the same age range, essentially.
00:57:48
Speaker
But yeah, sorry, what are you going to say there? It's interesting from a game perspective as well as that we're very, as gamers, we're very the idea of the challenge. You know, like, no challenge is too great for no matter the odds. Your character will overcome. It's quite interesting to be told in the game to be always going to die doing this. And it's an interesting idea. I always think for a game to be like, oh, wow, like, you know,
00:58:11
Speaker
maybe it kind of takes that power fantasy away for a little bit maybe like you know maybe there's something you can't do yeah so also interesting idea it's quite interesting like just what you said there's that theme of kind of almost inevitability really yeah like i was going to initially say it was like a theme of helplessness but it goes beyond that doesn't it like
00:58:33
Speaker
this idea that things are kind of set into motion and everything and it's yeah exactly it is and it's like eventually as you go through the story and there's like kind of hints as to what's going on but it's like obviously when you play through it the first time you don't really pick up on it and then once you actually realize what's going on you're like oh my god oh no oh no no no no no no please don't don't don't
00:59:02
Speaker
and then you're like okay here we go and again i'm gonna discuss like i don't know i've said this before like spoiler spoilers but genuinely like the reason i think i'm saying that a lot is just because and i think you probably feel the same way but you know it's like just how well this story's written at points and just more even how much like an impact
00:59:25
Speaker
it actually left you know like overall so it's like that's the reason i'm saying that i'm not just saying it to be annoying and be like oh spoilers but no genuinely but eventually you come face to face with Comstock who is the essentially the religious zealot that you've been like kind of chasing throughout the whole game and then you find him you grab him and you know Booker just goes mad doesn't he he's like a very and you'll probably appreciate the pun here he's very fatherly
00:59:54
Speaker
And when he realizes that Comstock has essentially been abusing Elizabeth by subjecting her to these experiments of torture, trying to push her power,
Booker's Fate and Identity Revelation
01:00:09
Speaker
limit it, and just basically prodding her with
01:00:12
Speaker
You know, it's like at one stage when you actually rescue her in the real timeline, you see she's got like this massive needle. Or it is a needle, isn't it? Like stuck in her spine? Oh yeah, yeah. And it's just, oh, it's just horrible. So she like, you know, she's like trying to tell him to calm down and he, you know, he just basically drowns him in the baptism bath. Which is quite a brutal scene. You know, the kind of irony. If we were to put another little mini teaser out there.
01:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
01:00:45
Speaker
And yeah, that's what I was thinking there. I'm glad we're on the same wavelength there. But yeah, what starts happening, and this is quite interesting, when he kills Comstock, his nose starts bleeding. And this is something that happened as well when he goes into the realm, or not the realm, but you know, the dimension where the Vox Populi are popular. And I never picked up on it until I replayed it,
01:01:13
Speaker
got to the end and there was like oh my god that is you know what a twist but yeah eventually like you have to fight off the Vox Popular like one last time don't you yeah and it's just like I mean it's not a great final fight like you have marriage
01:01:35
Speaker
It's very difficult. Yeah, it's like you have to fight them off in waves and you get like the songbird to help you out because you've got like this, not a magic flute, but you've got a flute. That's not a magic flute to be honest. Yeah, to be honest, it's like oh yeah go over there and kill them and then once you stop them it ends up you command it to take out this like huge radio transmitter, isn't it?
01:01:59
Speaker
And it's like, that's been the thing that's been limiting, sounds so anime, but it's like it's been limiting Elizabeth's powers, you know? She's just like, forgive me, I must go all out just as once. And she's like, you know, preparing herself just as the songbird goes out of control and then, yeah, it just like dive bombs at them and she opens the tear and everything.
01:02:22
Speaker
and you know eventually like you're like where are we and for those you know Bioshock fans out there you'll realize that they're in rapture like she's like transported them there. I'm actually quite curious like how did you feel about that being a you know Bioshock fan yourself?
01:02:39
Speaker
Like the first 10 people. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, sorry. I got too excited. No, I remember being like, oh, this is really cool. Like when it first happened. Looking back at it now, do you know what? Like my view has been slightly colored by the DLC that came out after this. I think as a moment itself, it's okay.
01:03:04
Speaker
like you know i kind of i mean just to say a little bit about the dlc really trying to link what happens in the first bio shot game with what happens in infinite which i think to the detriment of both obviously detriment more of infinite to be honest by trying to force the two together
01:03:20
Speaker
as a kind of like moment like that by itself it's fine and like I actually think it's quite like uh I know you're not the biggest fan of the song but I actually found it quite like quite a moving moment because that's where it dies basically the pressure like crushes him and stuff and I actually found it quite a quite a moving moment so and that's when I actually kind of liked it and it's limited and I just wish that had been linked to two games to be honest
01:03:47
Speaker
I have to admit, I do agree with you in the sense that it is just such a brutal moment where they're so deep underwater and of course the songbird, obviously it flies around and suddenly it's under the water and the pressure, it's a horrible scene isn't it?
01:04:07
Speaker
where it's just it starts breaking it apart and it's like Elizabeth's putting the hand in the glass and it's putting his hand in the glass. It is a touching moment. Although the only thing I kind of laugh at is like, you know, a guy from Rapture going about his daily business and he looks outside the window and he just all of a sudden sees like the sunburn floating by going, what the fuck? What is that?
01:04:34
Speaker
I was like, I've got to lay off the plasmids of it. Or it's Atlas being like, I have an idea. But yeah, that of course eventually leads to basically the, really just the whole revelations, isn't it? Like, of like where the story's going because at the beginning you're told who is this
01:05:00
Speaker
well who is this woman you know that you're supposed to be you know taking away who is or sorry what is the debt that we're supposed to be wiping away you know who are the twins and so forth and honestly to me it was like a gutting moment when everything fell into place and again the final time I'll say spoilers
01:05:21
Speaker
But yeah, it's revealed that Elizabeth is Booker's daughter. And it is at the end they reveal this, isn't it? Yeah, it's right at the end. Right at the end, right, okay. I wasn't sure if there was like a scene before that because there's a lot of scenes that kind of a would to it. There's the lighthouse hopping bit like before that where they keep like you know
01:05:43
Speaker
running across, which is another link to the first Bioshock, because that's how you enter Rapture, like you enter Columbia. Yeah, they're kind of running between Lighthouse, which I think that bit was a little bit kind of like, what the hell is going on? After that, as you say, we get the real big reveals.
01:06:03
Speaker
and yeah it's it's like leaving me speechless trying to like recall like what happens because again you get that moment when you see like hundreds of it or not hundreds but a couple of like you know bookers and Elizabeths just like running across like these floating platforms above the ocean into other lighthouses and things like that and you're like okay this is a bit this is a bit weird
01:06:27
Speaker
And then it's revealed, as I said, that Elizabeth is Booker's daughter. And the reason is that at the events just before the game starts, it revealed that Booker... Well, it's told to you at the beginning that Booker was a soldier in the... What war was it? It's one of the what's called the Indian Wars. Oh, right.
01:06:53
Speaker
and the quote-unquote Battle of Wounded Knee, which is a very infamous massacre of Native Americans by US soldiers. And he just comes back as a broken man, doesn't he? Just completely emotionally fractured. And he's got his daughter. It's like the only thing kind of keeping him in this kind of... But keeping him stable, essentially.
01:07:20
Speaker
and it's just such a shame because you see him just like you know like I think he gives away his daughter like this couple come to him and say you know oh we can you know we can wipe away you know your dates and things if you give us the girdle
01:07:35
Speaker
and what it turns out is and this is where it kind of gets freaky so apologies but the reason is because in fact no no no sorry i'll skip ahead before like i explain that he essentially like he essentially gives his baby away
01:07:52
Speaker
to Zachary Comstock. It's revealed that Zachary Comstock is the one that wants the baby because he is, he's basically becoming fertile with, basically dealing with, you know, time hopping and things. You know, it's terrible for you. Don't do it kids. Don't do it. And he hands over the baby and at the last minute
01:08:16
Speaker
he changes his mind and again that's a really tragic scene where it's like he's running and he's trying to grab the baby and they're like no don't grab the baby as the portal's closing and the baby reaches out and it's pinky gets sliced and there's something we didn't really mention before but
01:08:36
Speaker
Throughout the game, you see that Elizabeth's pinky is sliced like at the top, like she's missing the part of it. And that, of course, is the revelation that Elizabeth is his daughter. It's like, oh my God. So what eventually happens is you go through one of the lighthouses for the last time, and this is where I got absolutely emotionally gut-punched by this game, where, yeah, you get taken to like a baptism, isn't it? Yeah.
01:09:02
Speaker
this is where like all of a sudden all these Elizabeths start coming out the woodwork and you know Booker's like I don't understand and I think that was many players probably being like oh you'll get this and it's like they basically explained that this was like the crossroads for Booker's life and one timeline Booker refused the you know the baptism he walked away from it and he just lived out his life
01:09:28
Speaker
The other timeline is when he actually does get baptised and shock twist! He got baptised and assumed the identity of...
01:09:39
Speaker
Zachary Comstock and that's when I was kind of like oh my god this game and relating back to what I was saying about the nose bleeds so every time Booker goes into like another dimension you know where he's dead he gets a nose bleed but when he kills Zachary Comstock like immediately he gets a nose bleed as well which kind of like tells you doesn't it
01:10:06
Speaker
You know, it immediately kind of reveals that, oh my goodness, this is who we've been fighting. We've been fighting ourselves, essentially. And that obviously explains why Comstock would want because, you know, daughter rather than adopting or whatever. And... Well, technically. Technically it's a surprise adoption, but you know what I mean.
01:10:27
Speaker
and yeah it's it's a brutal end like do you want to take on like the last bit there's not really much left but you know I mean basically it ends up with so basically for the last part of the game Booker Booker's been trying to kill Comstock but when he realized when he kills Comstock and realizes that doesn't change anything you know he's like right I'm gonna go I'm gonna go keep going back and keep killing him until I reach a point where you know I'll undo everything
01:10:54
Speaker
I'll undo Columbia and you know the way Elizabeth was treated and everything and then when he realizes that you know he is Comstock and it's actually inevitable you know in a way like this choice there's always going to be the only way for it not to happen is for him to be killed and wiped out and that's basically what happens is these like as you say these this group of Elizabeth's appears and basically baptize like blur him in like a baptism but drown him
01:11:19
Speaker
It said baptism as a theme that reappeared several times throughout the game. But yeah, they basically kill him and that wipes out Comstock because Comstock can't exist from that point forward.
01:11:36
Speaker
And then it ends with Booker back in his kind of private detective office. So I guess in a way, like, by being wiped out there, he's wiped out the Comstock side, but it means the Booker side can still, you know, can still exist and still happen. And, you know, he goes in and he's looking for his daughter. And a lot of times it happens that Booker will get knocked and he kind of wakes up in his dream version of his office and he keeps calling for Anna, who's his daughter's name.
01:12:03
Speaker
and you keep looking for an account finder and then you know he does the last thing he goes Anna and he opens the door and and you see the cot there I don't think you actually see if she's there Paul no I don't know I don't I think it's implied though that he or rather that she is there yeah but because if there's no calm stock then technically it means that there was no one like left to take away
01:12:25
Speaker
That is unless, you know, it was just a dick and he gave... I don't want to be mean to him, but you know, unless he gave her away again. And it was like, Jesus. Yeah, so yeah, he could have gave her away twice. But you know, it's like kind of, it's like a bittersweet, you know, not a cliffhanger as such, but you know, it's like, what could have been, you know?
01:12:48
Speaker
at the moment which I think is kind of nice and you know you're left with this rendition of again the barbershop quartet of which again pulls at the heartstrings when it's you know the lyrics being like you know God only knows what I'd be without you kind of thing
01:13:05
Speaker
And that's literally it. Booker becomes this taken style mad father trying to get back, unknowingly, trying to get back his daughter. Because throughout the game he doesn't really remember, does he? He just remembers that he has a daughter. What happens is, characters we haven't really actually mentioned, are you referred to them as the twins?
01:13:29
Speaker
who are very important in the founding of Colombia and basically they were very important. It's very important the founding of Colombia like close to Comstock but he tried to murder them but what happened was they actually ended up kind of existing between dimensions and they can kind of jump between dimensions sort of like what Elizabeth can do and basically what they do is they take Booker out of the timeline like away from the dimension where obviously he gave away his daughter we think
01:13:55
Speaker
Bring him to the dimension where's Zachary Comstock exists the rescue to rescue Elizabeth to try it like I guess no way to like get their own kind of revenge.
Lutece Twins and Narrative Impact
01:14:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think both of the way to get revenge on Comstock but to also like as a kind of penance for what their part because they were very instrumental in getting taking Anna from
01:14:12
Speaker
Booker so as a way of penance and they what they do is as a kind of like as you say Booker's mind is so fractured after losing Anna that he starts to put things together in his own mind and they talk about that so remember he's bringing the girl wipe away the debt you know which is what the the Comstock and the Tessie twins told him when he gave away Anna but in his fractured mind he puts this together and makes his own reason for going to Columbia
01:14:34
Speaker
you know, define this girl to wipe away his debts. So it's a very clever way of explaining the mystery at the beginning of the game where you don't really have any real context for what you're doing, why you're here, you know, who you're looking for.
01:14:50
Speaker
I don't want to say a beautiful ending, but you know, it's such a bittersweet feeling. It's one of the only games, between that and, ironically enough, Deadly Premonition, where it's like, I've put down the controller and just thought, wow, this is by far one of my favourite games of all time, almost. And that is the weird thing, because again, we spent a good couple of minutes talking about how the combat wasn't that great,
01:15:18
Speaker
there's certain elements in the story that kind of don't work or kind of like slog along but at the same time it's like wow you know it's like it's less such an impression that obviously we're here today to be like yeah go play it because I can I can still vividly remember
01:15:35
Speaker
at that exact same emotion that you described of like finishing the game and just being like wow like and it's it's it still sticks with me now but i remember those first days cuming my thoughts and i was like oh my god this is one of the greatest things i've ever played and just yeah like just i just i found it absolutely i love the ad and like it just it just works on so many levels for me and i like i love like i love the idea of that like there are moments in your life you know that are like for whatever reason are
01:16:05
Speaker
are important you know positively negatively and there's a chance that you can diverge into two like very different people you know that idea to me i really i really like idea and you know it really fits in with the game's themes about choice and fate you know and like can we can we do anything like that the the songs that we're talking about like one of the big songs will the circle be unbroken is like can can you change can you change fate like is is everything set in are these things set in stone
01:16:34
Speaker
Or like, what kind of agency do we have to deal with it? And just, as you said, the bittersweet feeling of it. Because you grow like, you grow so attached to, well I certainly didn't, I think you did as well. Attached to Elizabeth as a character and really like, really bond with her and like, you know, you want to see a happy ending for her. But the real sadness of the ending is, you know, that with wiping out the Comstock timeline, Elizabeth can never exist.
01:17:00
Speaker
Okay, Anna, she's still Anna, so Anna's still there, but the Elizabeth that you've grown to know and you've grown attached to and bonded with throughout this game can't exist anymore because of that. And it's a real gut punch. I think you described it as a gut punch, and it is. The ending is a gut punch, but in the best way. A really, really great gut punch that stays with you and leaves an impression.
01:17:21
Speaker
See, I was thinking that when you were saying, like, you know, you can no longer have, or this version of Elizabeth can no longer exist.
Burial at Sea DLC and Its Reception
01:17:31
Speaker
And you're completely right up until they announce the DLC. And, I mean, did you want to go over the DLC, like, quickly? It's called Mario Let's See. It's in two parts.
01:17:45
Speaker
And basically, it takes place in Rapture, which is the location of the first game. The first part, you play as Booker again, who's become a private detective in Rapture. Are we doing spoilers with DLC? Yeah, go for spoilers. Because I remember spoiling the main game. No, sorry, I was just going to say, but spoil the main game. So spoilers with DLC here. It turns out that actually this is Comstock, this is a version of Comstock, not Booker, who I think something happened where Anna was killed in the escape, tear closed.
01:18:15
Speaker
and he kind of like forsakes Columbia and goes for rapture and yeah and then Elizabeth basically Elizabeth joins but he doesn't recognize him and basically they go on this kind of expedition together and basically Elizabeth ends up killing him in the end which reveals and Elizabeth's basically going through and then the second part he plays Elizabeth
01:18:31
Speaker
who needs to escape from Rapture but also rescue this girl as she promised to rescue and basically it ends up that Elizabeth sets in motion the first game and I don't I don't really want to say any more than that I was yeah I know we haven't really spoiled that so yeah okay I'll just say like but
01:18:47
Speaker
they try to force a link between the two games, which I think just really harms Infinite. It makes Infinite almost like a prequel to the events of Bioshock, which I just, there was no need for, there was no need, I was perfectly happy with them being two separate worlds. They maybe like shared some things, but yeah, that's mine. I know some people really liked it. Yeah, like I liked the first part, I have to say. I was kind of like, oh cool, you know, like a new story and everything. And you think, oh that's cool. And then you get to the second part and you're just like,
01:19:18
Speaker
Like, should we say what happens to Elizabeth at the very least? Oh, that's right, yeah, you can do that better. Okay, so basically her whole thing, I don't think that sounds like it's not a phase mum, but it's like she is, you know, she's always been like enamoured by
01:19:36
Speaker
the idea of going to Paris and, you know, living out her life there and everything. And that's kind of a theme throughout the main Bioshock Infinite game. But for the DLC, as you said, the first part is Booker trying to find this girl called Sally, I think her name is. And then, as you were saying, it's like it's revealed that when she's pulling, or when Comstock was pulling the baby through the
01:19:58
Speaker
like the portal, it chops off its head rather than its pinky and it's like such a... I have to admit I did gasp audibly and that scene I was like oh what are you doing and of course he ends up getting skewered by a
01:20:16
Speaker
Big Daddy's drill, which is not a euphemism, I swear to God. It's like a literal drill to the abdomen. It's brutal. And you think, okay, where are they going to go from there? Which then it transitions to part two. In part two you control Elizabeth, where at the beginning you are in Paris and you think, oh great, happy ending. And then it's like, ah, JK.
01:20:39
Speaker
they pull you back in and it turns out it's all a dream and you have to go back and it's because she's killed like the last Comstock or something like that that she can no longer use like her tears as well or something so she can't like escape and it's just a lot of like unnecessary violence and that like I know for a Bioshock game that is but I mean like there's torture scenes there's you know
01:21:03
Speaker
they're about to torture kids which you know it just seems a bit unnecessary and maybe i mean like a pruteer being like oh this is violence but genuinely it just it feels like it's not a like as you said it's not a necessary sequel and eventually elizabeth sets like the first game into motion and she ends up getting killed i think
01:21:27
Speaker
genuinely don't know how to feel about that because on the one hand I am like probably one of those people that you know in The Simpsons I think I bring this up a lot but you know the Simpsons image where it's like um Homer's got like the picture of Maggie and he's put like all the pictures over on that says do it for her yeah I could safely assume that we are probably in the camp that instead of like obviously the Maggie pictures is like Elizabeth they just be like do it for her yeah
01:21:55
Speaker
Yeah. And it just feels as if it was an unnecessary ending. It wasn't needed. As you said, it just seemed very unnecessary.
01:22:10
Speaker
this is the way she had to go. And I don't know whether that's because I genuinely really like her character, or it's because it just seemed like a silly idea. But if there's one thing I'm not a big fan of, it's when they try to link everything together and you're just like,
01:22:28
Speaker
I don't know like I will agree with you it didn't land the same as infinite like infinite I sat there like with my controller down just kind of sitting in silence as a credit rolled going wow this is amazing but with the ending to burial at sea I was just kind of like
01:22:47
Speaker
The first half, I'm going to be honest, seeing the first half of this really enjoyed it. I thought it was quite interesting, but as soon as I saw what they were doing with the second half I was like, okay, I'm not a big fan.
01:23:00
Speaker
I would like to cash in my ticket please to leave this wretched hellhole with Rapture please. I have a curiosity, see video at sea, does it take place before the fall of Rapture? Yes, it takes place on the cusp.
01:23:17
Speaker
Because at the start of the first episode you can kind of see Rapture, Rapture is still a functioning society. The end of the second episode I think basically helps to set in motion the civil war that will lead to basically the fall of Rapture.
01:23:42
Speaker
I think that's the only way you can really describe it. You're like, it's a thing. I feel bad because I don't know whether that was like a creative decision or it was like, I'm not going to sit here and be like, oh, it's probably the studio saying we need to link them together because I don't know that for a fact, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody said that, you know?
01:24:07
Speaker
If someone was just like, oh, we need these stories to link together and everything. And I think it's a shame because like Bioshock is a brand that is like, I don't want to say universally loved, but you know, it's like it's got such a strong reputation amongst its fan base.
01:24:23
Speaker
Like, I mean, the way you obviously used to speak about it as well, it's like, I mean, obviously you've like brought up like levels in Bioshock and everything, you know, like saying how well it's done, how the atmosphere's done, and it's just seeing this game kind of try to do the same things, but like at half-mast, it's... For me, it just doesn't fit.
01:24:46
Speaker
It doesn't land, and it's really just... It doesn't... I don't think it's that much of a detriment to Bioshock, to be honest, but it's really, like, a really hard story to Bioshock Infinite by making it. This has almost jumped up prequel, you know, to the thing. It almost makes me wish that this game, Bioshock Infinite, had been, like, I don't know, like... I heard somebody say it again. The Columbia Paradox. Or the Columbia Paradox.
01:25:12
Speaker
which if it had been called that, there'd be no way they could have linked these games. Look at what's done on their own. Which they're far better at. Yeah, that sounds about right. Like at the end they established that the Comstock kind of timeline is just like severed and that's it. Comstock's dead. So I was thinking that scene from Twin Peaks where he was like, you're dead! It's like he's just there.
01:25:34
Speaker
for no reason but yeah for some reason Comstock's there and you know oh we're gonna have a sequel and you know Elizabeth's now like this you know 1930s femme fatale who's you know although I did think I was pretty cool in the promotion with she clicks her fingers to like he's thinking it after that that was pretty cool that was pretty awesome but I mean I do like her design as well and everything but at the same time it's like
01:26:00
Speaker
Yeah, just a huge paradox of why this happened. Like there was no reason why this should happen. There was no reason why she was suddenly the last Elizabeth in all of this. And I don't know, it's just that it seemed, as we said, it seemed a bit unnecessary. But you know, like closing off on like a happy note.
Reflection on Bioshock Infinite
01:26:20
Speaker
Like overall, what would you say are your kind of closing thoughts about Bioshock Infinite as a whole?
01:26:26
Speaker
I just love this game. I really love it. It's one of these games that has made an imprint on it. And I've seen it described as iconic but flawed. And I think that is a great description for it. For me, there are flaws in the game in God knows we've talked about.
01:26:43
Speaker
the game just just made me feel things and just drew me in so much and made me care about your character and I don't really mind that like the middle of the story kind of sags and you know is a bit aimless and everything because I can remember how I felt when I started the game and I remember the warmth I have.
01:27:01
Speaker
I have an absolute love for The Think It's Amazing. Now, I'm in the same boat. I am totally in agreement there, and I know I say it a lot, but genuinely it is. A lot of the things I have to admit, a lot of the games that I like do have terrible flaws. I mean, see Deadly Premonition.
01:27:20
Speaker
where that's got like a lot of combat where it's just like what is going on here but because of the kind of wacky story and things that holds it together and I feel as if that's the same with Bioshock that it dives into so many themes and just it goes beyond
01:27:35
Speaker
what is necessary like this could have easily been a game that oh you have to find the girl you know shoot your way through oh it's gonna be you know oh the bad guys versus the good guys but they went that one step extra and they decided this is how we're gonna frame our characters this is what we're gonna do it's just really well handled and i think it's just it's awesome it's a good entry to the series i would say as we said like it's a shame about the dlc and everything but
01:28:05
Speaker
You know what? Every series, like everything. It's like everything we love has flaws. I think that's the takeaway from it. And yeah. If you haven't checked out Bioshock Infinite, seriously, go do it. It is awesome. It's such a good series. Yeah, it's such a good series. Or not a good series, but a good standalone game. And if you want to- A great series. Oh yeah, well true, true. And that's probably a game series that we might try and do for T-pose, isn't it?
01:28:33
Speaker
Well, I hope so. Fun fact, I haven't played a Bioshock game from start to finish, except for this one, obviously, because we just talked about it. But I haven't played the original or the second one, which is... I don't know. I'm really excited to play it, and especially with you, because I know you're aficionado with this. I am. I am very excited to explore Rapture with you. I can't wait.
01:28:58
Speaker
Really excited for that.
Podcast Promotion and Conclusion
01:29:00
Speaker
Thank you all as always so so much for joining in and yeah just tuning in for another episode of Chat Tsunami of course. If you want to catch more of my content you can catch me on Twitter.
01:29:14
Speaker
Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and of course Twitch under the name Satsanami42. Under the name, again, Satsanami42. What a twist. A twist worthy of bio shocking for that. If you want to catch more of the podcast as well, you can catch us on Anchor, Spotify, Castbox and all good podcast distributors. Just type the name Chatsanami and we will pop up. We are also on YouTube as well.
01:29:40
Speaker
under the name satsanami42 again and yeah we do this podcast every wednesday at 7 30 pm bst so yeah if you want to pop in live feel free to pop in because the boredom area really isn't it and yeah if you want to see us play through some
01:29:58
Speaker
Fantastic games, I want to say. Fantastic in their own words many times. Yes, such as the depressed dad simulator with the heavy rain. The mission, if we get up to Breath of the Wild, that was it. You, me and Green Tureld have started a Let's Play series as well. That's over on YouTube under the name Satsanami42. So if you want to check that out as well, yeah, feel free. I must say it's coming along nicely.
01:30:27
Speaker
Many hijinks have been had already. Yes, hijinks have been ensued and it is glorious. So go check it out. Until then, stay safe, stay awesome. Most importantly, stay hydrated. And if somebody promises to wipe away your debt by finding a girl, don't do it. Just stay at home. Stay safe, stay distanced. Don't do it. Bye, guys. Bye.