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Inside the World of True Crime: A Conversation with Serial Napper!
257 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, Satsunami is joined by true crime extraordinaire Nikki from the podcast Serial Napper. From the challenges of running such a serious podcast to curious cases, join us as we dive into the morbidly fascinating world of true crime.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. My name's Chatsunami, and joining me today is the one and only Nicky from the Serial Napper Podcast. Nicky, welcome to Chatsunami. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, how are you doing tonight?
Weather and Scotland Discussion
00:00:33
Speaker
I'm great. I'm in Canada, so it's raining as per usual before the summer actually starts, but we've needed some rain. I don't know if you've heard, we've had wildfires, so it's welcome rain, but
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to say because we have absolutely sweltering heat in Scotland. Hopefully by the time this episode comes out then it will have died down by then, but oh, it is far too warm for our Scottish sensibilities for sure.
00:00:59
Speaker
I'll try not to harass you with too many questions about Scotland because I've only ever dreamed of going to Scotland. I've never been there, but I'm obsessed. I'm on Scotland TikTok all the time, checking out all the places. Well, if you want to ask questions about Scotland, you are more than welcome.
00:01:15
Speaker
does it always look as rainy and gloomy as the TikToks? Not today, surprisingly. This whole couple of weeks have been scorching sunshine. Edinburgh looks like the cover of a shortbread box. It's
00:01:31
Speaker
It looks very picturesque right now, but otherwise, usually, it looks quite dreary and, as we say, dreech, like very grey and just, oh, very horrid. Otherwise, it's lovely. I love that. That's an introvert's dream. Rainy, gloomy, kind of moody, broody, castles and grass and books and, I don't know, that's what I imagine Scotland to be. Oh yeah, no, absolutely.
00:01:56
Speaker
I mean, especially in some of the cities, like you've got your Edinburgh Castle, you've got Sturgwood Castle, you've got all the ones in between. Look at me just taking over your interview. I have
Media and Podcast Connections
00:02:07
Speaker
one more question. Do you watch Outlander?
00:02:09
Speaker
Oh yeah, I've seen Outlander, yeah. Obsessed. I'm obsessed. It's great. I was just surprised that they took it to America. Oh yeah? You know, I thought it was kind of cool that they took it to Scotland and everything, and you know, they had that one off in France, and then when they took it to America, I was like, really? You guys have enough show set in America? Well, I mean, I'm a Canadian, so I can say that this, but that's pretty typical of... Yeah, yeah. Pretty typical. That sounds about right, to be fair.
00:02:39
Speaker
Funny enough, you do actually have a link between Scotland and this podcast because the last True Crime podcast that I actually had on here to interview was Dawn from the Scottish Murders podcast. So congratulations on being the second True Crime podcast to be on. Oh, very cool. That's very cool. I'm gonna add that one to my list for sure.
00:03:00
Speaker
definitely you'll need to get a certificate on the wall to take in person.
True Crime Podcast Beginnings
00:03:06
Speaker
So I'm quite curious because you know True Crime is one of those things that is, you know better than me, very morbidly fascinating but I was looking through some of your episodes and first of all they're absolutely fantastic.
00:03:19
Speaker
the way you narrate them, the way you set the scene and everything. And one of the things I have to ask before we dive into your podcast, I noticed that you started your podcast around 2020. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct.
00:03:34
Speaker
this is such a stereotypical question to start off with, but was it a product of the lockdowns of 2020? 100%. 100%. I had way too much time on my hands and I found myself listening to True Crime podcast after True Crime podcast
00:03:53
Speaker
And I thought, well, I'm going to give this a shot myself. And when I started out, I had no idea what I was doing, but it's just it's grown from there. The true crime community is a decent one. It's full of people that really care about the cases and really care about the victims. So once I started, even though it was just supposed to be something to keep me busy during the lockdown, I kind of found my calling through that. So. Out of curiosity, what was it to true crime that attracted you in the first place?
00:04:19
Speaker
I'd say when I was a kid, I mean, I used to watch Dateline and shows like that when I was maybe as young as, you know, 10 or 11. But even before that, I had this little black and white TV with the bunny ears that you had to move around to try to get any sort of reception. And I used to sneak on Unsolved Mysteries when I was maybe six years old and just scare the pants off myself. I'd be terrified, but I loved it. And I think that's what really started my true crime interest was
00:04:48
Speaker
Unsolved Mysteries and then Dateline.
00:05:10
Speaker
Oh, I wonder. Yeah, I mean, I think it really did start with things like Dateline and Unsolved Mysteries and, you know, late or I guess late 90s and then going into the 2000s. But with podcasting, I mean, true crime podcasts really took off in what, probably 20, late 2010s.
Impact of True Crime Podcasts
00:05:30
Speaker
And they've just, they've exploded. You've got good ones, you've got bad ones, but it's been a genre that people seem to be really drawn to.
00:05:38
Speaker
As you said before, there is just such a massive community, isn't there, of people not only partaking in listening to these podcasts, but also doing the creating as well. Right, yeah. It's really grown from just sharing stories to podcasters working with
00:05:56
Speaker
authorities and working with their own networks to actually contribute to helping to solve some of these cases. There's actually been a lot of really good stuff, really good work done in the past few years with True Crime Podcasts actually working with authorities where their caseload is just too much. They don't have the resources to actually focus on a lot of these cold cases. So I think there's been a lot of good recently.
00:06:19
Speaker
It definitely seems to be the case, yeah, because you see the genre grow arms and legs, as it were, not only on the podcasting scene, but also on YouTube and things like that, where it has just, it's not only become, as you said, you know, this small niche corner, it is these communities that are working together to talk about these mutual cases, which
00:06:44
Speaker
I have to say it is very interesting but I can imagine, although even here in the UK we had our own kind of crime shows, like the only one I can think of off the top of my head was Crime Watch but that was more of a depressing watch to be like, this person got bet up. If you know anything, please contact me, you'd be like, oh wonderful, I'm gonna have to watch out for that guy.
00:07:05
Speaker
coming out of nowhere but it is interesting to see and especially I'm quite curious to hear what you think of this but you know how streaming services recently because of the boom with true crime entertainment like especially with podcasts and things has been going on. Do you feel as if streaming networks like for example Netflix have also contributed to that with their shows?
00:07:28
Speaker
Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely. I feel like every week there's a new true crime documentary coming out and all of these new networks popping up. I'm subscribing and unsubscribing to new television channels or streaming services every week.
00:07:44
Speaker
because there's new ones popping up. It's been crazy. As a consumer of this content, you have to decide where you're going to focus your attention and where you're going to actually listen and which shows you're going to support. One of the good things is there is a lot of good that has come out of
00:08:00
Speaker
this boom with more eyes on cases that need more eyes. But then there's also people who try to capitalize on things. You have channels come out that aren't as respectful to the victims, that aren't victim centric, that exploit true crime. And so it gets a little tricky there.
00:08:16
Speaker
Do you feel as if that's quite a significant problem within the true crime community? Like, especially with people trivialising or, as you said, monetising something that isn't handled in the best way? Yeah, absolutely. I think it is becoming a bit more of a problem. And a lot of the true crime groups that I'm in, and I'm in a ton, there's also a lot of people capitalising on merchandise that isn't
00:08:41
Speaker
so appropriate. You know, I remember seeing like kitchen things with Dom or merchandise like kitchen items for cooking and things like that are just so inappropriate. And I mean, people who are interested in true crime, we tend to have more of a dark sense of humor, but there's a point of which it becomes just really inappropriate and disrespectful to victims.
00:09:02
Speaker
And then we have stories being shared where the families aren't being consulted. And I will admit, I don't necessarily consult with every family member when I cover a case, but there are cases where the family of the victim have been very vocal that they do not want their story talked about that they're uncomfortable with it. They don't want to mess up.
00:09:22
Speaker
the integrity of the investigation because that could become another issue so you really have to watch who you're supporting and the way that they talk and if they are about getting the story out there and helping or if they're just about talking about the guts the gore the trauma of someone else we all need to remember that these aren't stories they're not made up stories these are real people's lives and real victims so
00:09:45
Speaker
I have to admit, I've been very surprised with that. Don't get me wrong, I've not seen as many shoe crime podcasts or videos or things like that. They do trivialise as much, but the ones that I have seen really shocked me. There was one I saw and it was a guy who was basically reviewing these kind of
00:10:04
Speaker
channels, especially in YouTube, and it was things like a woman would maybe be doing her makeup in one of them and just casually saying things like, oh, yeah, and she was gutted and things like that. You can't just put up a makeup tutorial and be like, oh, by the way, I'm talking about a grizzly incident. And then
00:10:24
Speaker
he had another one where these two people, I think it was a couple or I don't know if they were brother and sister, but they were doing like a muckbang while they were talking about these murders. That one really shocked me. That one really took me off guard. I'm like, of all the things, of all the combinations, the next doesn't seem like they would get along and spoilers they don't. Yeah.
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's terrible. And I mean, the sad part is shows like that, whether they're on YouTube or Netflix or a podcast, those are the ones that unfortunately get the most attention, the shock value. I mean, if you just go to YouTube and you look at what's trending in true crime, it's all the stuff with the shock value, the thumbnails that are, you know, woman's head decapitated and cooked on the stove.
00:11:09
Speaker
whatever gets people to click. That's what's getting attention. That's what's getting monetized. It's really unfortunate. And it just makes it harder for people who really want to just share cases to support the victims to support their families to get lesser known cases out there. It makes it more difficult for those media to actually get their story out there because nobody's looking at them. Nobody's listening to them unless there is that shock
00:11:32
Speaker
value. I won't say nobody, but there's definitely a smaller audience of people who will take the time to actually listen to a case for the facts instead of the shock value. No, you're completely right, because the amount of crimes and things that you see, and you see people try to dramatise, I suppose, is the right word, but you see them overemphasise a lot to say, oh, it's like a bloody massacre, or they rehash the same talking points. You see them in
00:12:02
Speaker
very high prolific cases where it's like oh this happened or that happened and you know it must be quite traumatizing obviously on the outset it is traumatizing for the affected victims but it must be traumatizing as well for the families going through that
00:12:17
Speaker
Absolutely.
Evolution of True Crime Narratives
00:12:18
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, for me personally, when I first started my podcast, it was for entertainment value only. And so when I first started, I just wanted to share the stories. I wasn't necessarily doing it for a purpose. I wasn't necessarily trying to, you know, get more eyes on
00:12:35
Speaker
lesser known cases. I didn't really have a purpose. I wasn't purpose driven in my podcast. And so I used to sign off serial napper with a catchy little closeout phrase. And it was, Oh my gosh, I'm almost so embarrassed to say it. But if you go to my old episodes, you'll hear it. And people often ask me why I don't say it anymore. And I have to explain why. But I used to end my podcast episodes with
00:12:56
Speaker
don't be a Dahmer. Don't be a Dahmer. You know, it was just a catchy little phrase that I thought was kind of cute, kind of funny. And I didn't really think anything more of it. But then as I started to cover cases where I'm speaking with victims families, I'm talking about really serious cases that are tragic and horrible. And you know, they're very serious. It didn't feel right anymore. It just it didn't fit at the end, you know, signing off
00:13:19
Speaker
See you next episode, don't be a dumber. It just sounded not authentic, not aligned with what I wanted to do for the podcast. So I quickly took that out probably after the first year and really just started focusing on getting the story out there, being very respectful of the victims and basically throwing whoever the perpetrator is under the bus in any way that I can.
00:13:40
Speaker
Have there been, and feel free not to answer this if you're uncomfortable with this one, but has there been any episodes where you find it challenging to research or talk about…? Yeah, cases involving children are really difficult just because I have two of my own, and I often get requests to cover specific cases. And
00:14:17
Speaker
too much. And it becomes kind of difficult when you're constantly consuming true crime content, which I kind of have to do. But there is a goal, right? The goal is really to support victims and their families. And so I try to remember that. But yeah, it does get a bit difficult. And I remember one case actually that I covered one of the family members actually reached out to me and you know, they asked if I could remove the episode because the woman who was killed in it, she had a son and he was being bullied at school for his mother's murder, which to me is just
00:14:26
Speaker
I have a list
00:14:46
Speaker
that doesn't make sense. That's horrible. But it really made me think about how what we're putting out there does affect real people's lives. And of course, immediately I took it down right away. I was apologetic, so apologetic, and I took it down. I would never want to exploit someone like that. We always have to be really aware of what we're putting out there. It affects real people. So
00:15:05
Speaker
because I feel as if there's that layer of almost separation. You know, when you're listening to these podcasts, you're pretty much the listener, you're the consumer of the content and you're not really, not that I'm saying that everyone who listens to true crime podcasts detaches themselves by any means or says, oh, that wasn't a horrible ending, but
00:15:26
Speaker
you do get that sense of because they are not directly affected by it they're more listening to almost someone talk about characters as it were rather than as you said real people with these real struggles and then one day their lives are turned upside down through whatever traumatic incident and then because of that you've got all of these people who want to
00:15:49
Speaker
cover it. You know, for better or for worse, because like your podcast you do it in a very respectful way, you do it absolutely fantastically. But then of course you might get some people who just say, oh this is crazy, but anyway this is sponsored by Raid Shadow Legends or something and you're like, no, what?
00:16:05
Speaker
I'm being quite flippant there, apologies. But you know, it's that kind of idea that they're not giving the respect to the topic because they're not involved personally. No, yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, I remember listening to one podcast where I think the way that they explained it was, you know, this is the tale of, you know, and it was a real life case. Like it's not a tale. These are real people. So I have to remember that.
00:16:30
Speaker
I feel as if going back to what we were talking about with Netflix and things like that, whether they're documentaries, whether they're movies or things, because I always remember, and I can't remember what Killery was playing, but do you remember there was a thing with, I think it was Zac Efron? He played a prolific serial killer.
00:16:48
Speaker
think he played Ted Bundy. Yeah, people were complaining because he's usually like the heartthrob character, he's usually this or that, and then he was playing Ted Bundy, and people were like, oh my goodness, you know, he's so attractive, and it was like, well, not in this case he's, you know, playing a serial killer. It does kind of surprise me when people can, not that they can't differentiate, but you know the way they almost conflate the actor playing the person? Absolutely.
00:17:18
Speaker
are playing the killer versus the actual killer in real life and they don't see the killer on their mind. They see the poster child as it were. That's the same with the movie, I think it was Monster, which it was the Jeffrey Dahmer series and Evan Peters from American Horror Story played Jeffrey Dahmer and he did a phenomenal job
00:17:44
Speaker
phenomenal. He's someone who is a bit of a heartthrob to some girls. And you know, it was the same sort of thing. Lots of reviews and glowing reviews over how hot he was. And it's just it's kind of uncomfortable. There was a lot of pushback on that series from family members of the victims. They're sick of hearing the story in general. I mean, I'm pretty sure there's been a few Dahmer movies, a few Ted Bundy movies and the last couple of years.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds about right for these particular studios to be like, yeah, what's popular this month? Just throw a Jeffrey Dahmer one off. It'll sure all be fine. And same. There was another one actually recently. There was, I can't remember what network it was. Jessica Beale played a female killer. She had an affair with
00:18:30
Speaker
a husband and she killed the wife. It's based on a real story. I can't remember what it is. But maybe a few months later, there was another entire series about that. It's like how many times and ways can we rehash these cases? And like, are we revictimizing these people every single time?
00:18:47
Speaker
something I've found quite interesting about these particular retellings of the story is just purely the fact that there's a lot of ones that are very concise, very to the point to say this is what's happened, this is the fallout and they're very respectful to the actual events that happened.
00:19:04
Speaker
But then you get these really weird and 90% of the time it's usually an American documentary and it's like 10 parts, half of it's not even related to the case. They interview someone who, I don't know, gave the killer a donut or something one time and he's like, yeah, that was a traumatic day and you spend 15 minutes with this guy and you're like, why are we watching this?
00:19:26
Speaker
Yeah, I have ADHD, so I can't do those. There's a reason my episodes, they're around 30 minutes, it varies. If it's a really complex case, I'll usually cut it into two parts. But yeah, they're usually around 30 minutes. And at first people are like, how are you going to cover everything in 30 minutes? And it's like, just watch me. I have ADHD, I need all the facts quick, right there, summarized, no small talk. That's what I need. So that's kind of how I format in my show.
00:19:52
Speaker
just a speed run over, essentially. Exactly, exactly. Hit me with the fact. I just want to know everything that happened in a very concise way. I don't want to know what they ate for breakfast that day and if it was burned or something. I mean, unless that's what set them off, but that's a whole other thing. That's right. And I mean, I can understand that. Burning my breakfast.
00:20:12
Speaker
Hashtag relatable things. Exactly. But I've got to ask though, just going back to your podcast for a second, what was the inspiration behind the name Serial Napper? I genuinely got to ask because that was like my number one question tonight. I was like, I've got to ask, what was the
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, so I am a prolific podcast fall asleep or if that's not a word, but I can never finish a podcast episode. Actually, I usually have to listen to it five or six times because they make me sleepy. And I fall asleep. And anytime my husband would find me, you know, somewhere in the house napping, I would always have a true crime podcast on in the background, which probably scares the crap out of him. But that's
00:20:53
Speaker
that's okay. So that's kind of where the name came from serial with an S kind of like serial killer and then napper because I just I love to take naps. So I am kind of a serial napper myself.
00:21:03
Speaker
You know, that is a fair point. I've actually had people who say that they fall asleep listening to my podcast. So I'm like, that's great. I'm here for that. That's what it's for. Because I remember there was like a, I can't remember what website it was on, but there was like a meme that was going around for that where it was like, when you fall asleep at a true crime podcast, and it's like quite the graphic description where it's like, they found the body and it was all cut up. And it's the guy just waking up like, oh, what?
00:21:32
Speaker
What time is it? All right, I'm still listening to this. Yeah, I can imagine there'd be a lot of true crime podcasts if we do the same. It's so true. I don't know. I think we're all a bit maybe desensitized at this point. Depending on the topic, it sort of lulls me to sleep. It's like a nice little storybook time before bed. So I thought I'd create my own true crime podcast that people can fall asleep to.
00:21:54
Speaker
And out of curiosity, you were saying earlier about how heavy things can get when you're researching true crime all the time, you're creating the scripts from the episodes and things, so do you do anything to de-stress or take yourself away from that particular area of the podcast?
Community and Creator Support
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah, I take a lot of breaks when I'm researching and I'm a big fan of The Office. That's my safe, happy TV show. So literally I take breaks and I watch The Office and I laugh my behind off and then I come back to it. No, that's fair enough.
00:22:30
Speaker
because I remember when I was talking to Dawn from the Scottish Murders podcast and she was saying as well how having a community also helps as well, you know, being able to fall back on true crime groups that, you know, were kind of going through the same thing as it were. Do you feel as if it's good to have that sense of support
00:22:52
Speaker
as opposed to like if you were just going at it on your own as a solo podcaster without the support from the wider True Crime community. Yeah, absolutely. That's one of my favourite things about having this podcast really is the True Crime community around it because it's full of like-minded people who
00:23:11
Speaker
are really empathetic. And they listen to these stories because they do care and they do have a big heart. And so they're a good group to lean on when it's a particularly difficult case. And you guys can talk about you know, the victim and work together to come up with theories and you feel like you're doing something that can help.
00:23:28
Speaker
And that also helps that my husband is in law enforcement too. So, you know, when I'm working on a particularly difficult case, I can go and talk to him and he kind of talks me through it and I can lean on him and he sees a lot and he deals with a lot as well. So we kind of do that with each other. He'll come home and he'll be like, you'll never believe this crazy case that I was working on tonight. And I'll be like, you'll never believe the crazy case that I've been working on. Although, you know, my job is far less important, but still,
00:23:55
Speaker
That's still nice though that you can both talk to one another about it. The cases that he deals with are usually small thankfully. We live in Canada so he's pretty bored most of the time and mine are much more serious so that kind of helps me to de-stress too is just listening to a lot of stories that are more so, you know, this silly criminal did this really stupid thing today. Those are the stories that he brings me home.
00:24:18
Speaker
Sometimes true crime can be funny. I mean, with less serious crimes. Those are good shows to watch too, you know, the episodes that are, I think there was a show called like Dumb Criminals or Dumb Crimes or something like that, where, you know, they just do the dumbest things that are clearly going to get them caught. So yeah, there can be a little bit of comedic relief in true crime, thankfully.
00:24:37
Speaker
absolutely. It's always nice seeing that and again I'm showing my age here by saying like the fail compilations and things like that but you know the ones you get in YouTube and things so it's like oh that crazy criminal. And you like to think that oh thank god at least every single criminal's not going to be hyper competent and you know they're never going to evade everyone. Sometimes they'll just walk into a shop try to steal something stupid and then forget to bring it out
00:25:04
Speaker
kind of thing. So that's always our belief. But speaking of the lighter side of true crime, what are the positives you've found through doing true crime? Because I know, as we said before, we spent a while saying, oh yeah, it's very dark and you need avenues to kind of de-stress with it. But what are some of the positive aspects of running a true crime podcast?
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think in particular with cold cases that often get forgotten, it's bringing them back to the forefront, bringing them back into the spotlight. There have been some podcasts out there. There's one in particular in your own backyard, in our own backyard. It's the case of Kristen Smart, and it's a series, and he did such a great job. It was
00:25:47
Speaker
a bit of a cold case, you know, there was a suspect that they were looking at, they couldn't really prove it. And really through his podcast and his spotlight on it, it put the pressure back on investigators to really dig into it further. And after I think
00:26:02
Speaker
the case was cold or stalled for at least 10 years after so long it finally brought about charges the person the culprit that everyone always suspected was finally caught and a large part of that really was to that podcast so we see this a lot lately especially with all the different podcasts that are coming up where
00:26:20
Speaker
cases that the police just don't have the resources. It's not that they don't care, they don't want to look into the cases, they just simply don't have the time. And the more eyes that you can get on the case, the more you talk about it, it's just it's better for everyone. The more tips that they get, the more people that are putting pressure on authorities so they can reallocate budgets and resources. There's a lot of positives.
Risks and Ethics in True Crime Coverage
00:26:43
Speaker
And we're seeing more and more cases that are sold as a result of it.
00:26:47
Speaker
Now, that is really good to hear because I know you hear the, I suppose, not so much negative, but the people who want to help, for example, there's a documentary I remember watching called Don't F with Cats, I think it was called. I've seen that, yeah. Yeah, where some of the activists online, I know they are technically not, I don't know if you would include them in the true crime community, but they were trying to catch that killer and I think was it eventually the police column in the end?
00:27:14
Speaker
I think so. But it was yeah, it was a lot of their tips really helped to identify him. And that was a case out of Canada. That was just a few hours from where I live. And I don't know if they would have necessarily caught him if not for all of the information that these web sleuths were providing. So yeah, it's great if
00:27:32
Speaker
People are at home and they have an interest in true crime. And there's a lot of people out there that are so good at finding information. They can take a piece of information and they can go online and they can pinpoint locations and names and they can dig up all this information that police just don't have time to do and then pass it on to the police. So I think it's a great thing.
00:27:52
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. The amount of cases that I have seen over the years, and I feel as if that's definitely because of the development of the way the internet works nowadays. You know, it's very accessible to people. It is super easy to find these resources now, as opposed to maybe 10, 15 years ago, other than
00:28:14
Speaker
there's the downsides as well. And again, I'm not undermining the successes, but there is the downsides of like, for example, I think the most infamous, or not most, but one of the most infamous ones I can think of was when Reddit banded together to try and find the, I think it was the Boston bomber at the time. Did you hear about this one? No, I haven't.
00:28:34
Speaker
So I think it was a couple of hours after that happened and people were posting images and they were trying to find out who the bomber was but it long story short it turned out that they got completely the wrong guy but because of that the guy was getting death threats and everything, he was getting this abuse. I kind of remember if he died before or after but
00:28:56
Speaker
It was just like a horrible mistake from this particular community. But on the flip side, it's very much a double-edged sword, doesn't it? Although you do have those prolific negative sides, as you said, you do have that sense that someone sitting at the computer with their interest in true crime can give that one tip that is basically eluded detectives and things like that.
00:29:19
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, the media and podcasters, they need to be responsible for the information that they're putting out there. I mean, I've seen in several instances where people think that one particular individual is the person and they're convinced and they really just put that name and information out there without any real facts to back it up.
00:29:37
Speaker
So that information needs to go to the police, not online. And they can mess up entire investigations. If they put out information that is not public knowledge, they could mess everything up. If they have a piece of information that maybe only the perpetrator knows, and they put that out there for everyone, that's a tool that police are now not able to use in their investigation. So they can mess everything up.
00:29:59
Speaker
And do you think, nowadays, with that sense of people making a name for themselves, I suppose, whether that be with the podcast scene or with the content creation scene as a whole, that there are, obviously not everyone, but there are a lot of creators that try to make a name for themselves by acting that way, by giving all that information that they probably should hold back on?
00:30:23
Speaker
right? Everyone wants to be the first to report on the information, the first one to get it right. I've seen podcasters in particular who get on phone calls with suspects, you know, to try to trap them and record the phone calls, they're getting really too close to these cases. And they're blurring the lines between, you know, doing their job and being a professional and just invading these cases where they don't belong.
00:30:48
Speaker
You know, funny enough, that reminds me of a case. It was a really weird one, I think you've probably heard of it, but it was a case of swatting and it was basically two guys got into an argument online and one of them gave a fake address and said, oh yeah, if you want to send the police or try and fight me on this address, but he gave the old address and
00:31:13
Speaker
long story short, the guy phoned up the police and the police turned up to this random guy's house and shot him dead because they thought he had a gun and everything, which it was just such a horrible case. But then there was, I think it was a show called Drama Alert on YouTube
00:31:30
Speaker
I can't remember the name of the guy, Keemstar, that was it. He brought the guy who called in the slot onto the show and they almost gave the guy a platform to say, oh it wasn't my fault because of XYZ, but literally it was because you don't call the police for that kind of thing and then eventually that led to the death of an innocent man. So you've got a good point, do you think that there is that danger of platforming certain people that maybe shouldn't be in the limelight?
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah, I remember that case, actually. That's definitely someone I would never want to give a platform to because I don't know, like you're kind of putting ideas out there and letting this guy control the narrative. And I don't know if that's a little much to me, but yeah, I don't think so. And then also when you have cases with mass shooters, one of the cases I covered was Randy Stair and he put everything out on YouTube. He recorded everything that he wanted to do beforehand.
00:32:26
Speaker
I have no idea how he wasn't flagged before he actually went through with the shooting, but even covering cases like that, sometimes I'm a little weary where I'm not necessarily interviewing someone or having someone on my show, but just highlighting the crimes that they've done because there always is the risk of inspiring other people to become copycats or to get ideas.
00:32:45
Speaker
No, it's absolutely a fair point, no, because there are so many copycat cases that you do see pop up and I have to admit it's almost like that meme where, you know, when you hear a particular case and then you watch a separate video and then there's another case that's exactly the same and it's like, you know, that's seen out of Back to the Future where it's like, wait a minute, I've seen this one! Well, no, it's a completely different one, just the same type of case and it is, it's
00:33:15
Speaker
I don't know if you've heard Brian Co...what's his name? Brian Coburger? The guy from the Idaho shootings where he killed four university students. He was very involved with the true crime community before he did that. He actually was a professor where he taught like criminology and he was in all the forums, all the true crime forums and learning from other criminals mistakes and kind of honing his skills and
00:33:42
Speaker
preparing for the murder and he would ultimately murder four university students in Idaho. And now it's believed that he had other victims that just haven't been found because he was right in there following cases and learning from others and seeing what was being spoken about even the murder that he was involved in. He was watching everything, which is really scared to think about.
00:34:02
Speaker
It really is, especially when it's someone in, and again this is the textbook, oh it's a person in the position of power and everything that you think, oh it's okay, you can trust them whether it's a university professor or someone you can supposedly trust, especially when they're talking about criminology or crimes in general, true crime. And yeah, I have to say I'd be pretty bummed out if, and that's a very loose way of saying that, if
00:34:29
Speaker
you heard that someone that you knew or someone that you were getting taught by committed such a horrific act. Yeah, they live amongst us. They're everywhere and you know, usually they aren't so obvious. He was, I don't know, I guess you could chalk it up to being someone like me or the rest
00:34:45
Speaker
the true crime community just interested just have an interest have a passion but i mean you never really know who is capable of what we see it all the time it's always the people that you least suspect but then again they're the people that are in the true crime communities that are learning and watching information even about crimes that they've committed to see what the media knows what the police know it's not usually the person you suspect but it's pretty crazy
00:35:09
Speaker
I mean there was that case, and this was in, I want to say 2012 I think, it was like the mass shooting of a screening of The Dark Knight Rises, the Batman film, and it was done by a guy who can't remember his name, and obviously Nordo wouldn't have given attention to the guy, but I remember he was like a medical student or something like that.
00:35:32
Speaker
Yeah, he was very in a privileged position, as it were, that he was going to medical school and everything, and he just horrifically got a gun and decided he was going to gun down these poor people. But then again, that was another one of these cases that a lot of people were obsessed with him for some reason.
00:35:49
Speaker
Yeah, I remember that. I don't know what it was about him. He was the guy that had the crazy reddish hair because I think he wanted to dress up like Joker. Actually, I think he did dress up like Joker for the shooting. Yeah, people were obsessed with him. And then there was another young guy in the shooting and you know, they thought he was cute and you know, just this innocent young thing and then the Columbine shooting.
00:36:11
Speaker
Oh my goodness, there are forums and forums of people who are just obsessed with the Columbine shooters. It's unreal. It's crazy. I remember when I was in school and that was a good while ago, let me just say that. I do remember watching the documentary for that in school. I think it was Bowling for Columbine. Right.
00:36:33
Speaker
was the Michael Moore one where he talked about how easy it was to get guns in America and that whole discourse and then he moved on to talking about the actual shooting and everything and how people were so fixated on it but even though that unfortunately there have been so many mass shootings in the US from then to now because even in Scotland we had one mass shooting in a school and that was Dunblane and the
00:37:00
Speaker
I think it was the 80s and then it never happened again.
Notorious Cases and Societal Impact
00:37:03
Speaker
But with that, it's amazing that although there has been so many copycat cases, that's the one that's held up as the example. When you think of these shootings, you think that's one of the more infamous ones. Yeah, that's the one that I remember. I think I was in junior high when it happened because nobody wanted to go to school the next day. And then, yeah, I remember watching the documentary and
00:37:28
Speaker
I think a lot of people thought after that happened that things would change, hopefully. Some sort of gun control in the States would happen, but it didn't. And then we had the case, Sandy Hook, where
00:37:44
Speaker
They were literal babies. They were, you know, kindergartners that were killed. And people thought, you know, this has to be the one. This is going to change. This is going to make change. There's going to be laws that will change. And again, unfortunately, nothing happened. Right.
00:38:01
Speaker
I don't know. I don't think that anything really is going to change, unfortunately, in that way. But one of the cases that I'm working on right now is it is a shooter. It's a mass shooter, Brandon Hole. And with him, it's an interesting story because
00:38:18
Speaker
After the fact, usually people look back on the shooter's history and their search history and all that and their behavior and they're like, okay, there were red flags, there were warning signs, but we didn't see them at the time. They mostly went ignored.
00:38:34
Speaker
With Brandon Hole, the case that I'm currently working on, there were a ton of warning signs and even police intervention where they took away his weapons that he bought because he was such a danger. The FBI was watching him. He was
00:38:50
Speaker
on a ton of websites, you know, obsessed with mass shootings, just obsessed. And it was very clear that he was high risk to the point where they took his weapons away, but he would just straight up tell them, you know, yeah, go ahead, take my weapons. You can destroy them. I don't need them. I don't want to hurt anybody. I'm going to focus on getting better, going to therapy and getting my GED, my high school diploma kind of thing.
00:39:17
Speaker
And he was just able to talk his way out of it, even though he was a very serious threat. And so they ignored him. And he went in and he killed, I think, eight people at a FedEx building that he used to work at. So even when there are red flags and police are watching, it doesn't seem like people are being taken seriously.
00:39:33
Speaker
Oh no, absolutely. It is surprising the origin for a lot of these cases because most of them of course are rooted in mental health issues or obsessive compulsiveness as it were. There was one case I remember reading about and I think it was focused in Japan and it was an absolutely horrific case. Did you hear about the one where it was the guy who burned down, I think it was
00:39:58
Speaker
Kyoto animation. I could be wrong but he burnt down an anime studio and killed a lot of people because it was just he was convinced that they had stolen his idea. He sent an idea about something and they by coincidence had made an anime up based on that idea but I don't think there was any proof that they had stolen the idea but he was just absolutely convinced and he just walked all the way there, took a thing of gasoline and just set the building on fire.
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think I was actually living in Japan when that happened. I think I remember reading about that in the paper. It was crazy. Japan's an interesting place because they don't have guns. There's no gun violence there unless you're dealing with the Yakuza, but it's rare. But with them, when
00:40:41
Speaker
they commit crimes when people are having mental crisis commit crimes in Japan, they go big, like it's usually something big because they don't they don't have guns. So it's usually something Yeah, like burning a building down, or I've covered several cases from Japan. And they're the more intense ones, for sure, they have to get a little bit more creative, I guess when going through with things. But yeah, that that's horrible.
00:41:03
Speaker
I mean, the only other one I can think of off the top of my head was the cult attacks, which just seemed... I can't remember the name of the cult off the top of my head. Yeah, I can't remember the name of the cult, but yeah, I do. Yeah, I remember that as well. He had something he left on the platform that released the gas or something. I can't imagine. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was like he got his followers to wrap up.
00:41:25
Speaker
think it was sarin gas or something, but it had something that they wrapped it up and then they broke it in the subway and apparently that's why a lot of these places don't have bins nearby. I mean it's quite similar to, I was in London a couple of months ago and I remember being there, of course, the important government buildings, you know like Westminster, Downing Street, things like that, being like, I wonder why there's no bins around, this is ridiculous and then I'm like, oh yeah,
00:41:54
Speaker
Thinking back to that case as well. Yeah, probably not the best idea to have a bin nearby. As unfortunate as it is, yeah, it is surprising that when you get a country like Japan, which does seem fantastic otherwise, but when you get that way that they have to think of other ways to commit the crime, it just becomes more intense.
00:42:14
Speaker
Right. And now that I'm thinking about it, yeah, I mean, I thought that Japan didn't have garbage cans because, well, they just want you to bring your garbage home and dispose of it, which may be partially true, but that is true. There are no garbage bins in the subways. Well, they're very rare or even on the streets. You can't find them anywhere.
00:42:32
Speaker
That kind of makes sense, not that I'm thinking about it. At first, I was like, well, they don't want to deal with the garbage. They want you to take it home. So side note, if anyone's listening and they go to Japan, bring garbage bags in your purse because you're going to be carrying around all your garbage all day. Good advice.
00:42:47
Speaker
And even with Prime Minister Abe, I was just leaving Japan. I was in I think my final couple of months in Japan when he was shot, the former prime minister of Japan, which is just unheard of. And the guy that shot him created a gun out of a 3D printer. It doesn't even look like a weapon. It's
00:43:06
Speaker
interesting he built it himself and he designed it on a 3d printer and he was able to create a gun so and because there aren't gun crimes or anything you know it's not prevalent in Japan gun crime the prime minister was there and there were maybe two security guards and the crowd was around them and nobody was thinking that that was going to happen
00:43:23
Speaker
is crazy to think though.
Safety Perceptions in Japan and Scotland
00:43:25
Speaker
You're completely right it does seem as if in a place that doesn't have gun crime like especially in Scotland as well. Don't get me wrong, we do have our fair share of crime. I wouldn't say it's the most dangerous place on the planet but we do have our dodgy areas where you kind of look and go, okay I'm gonna avoid that place today, thank you. But you know when you do get things like gun crime which usually it's more
00:43:48
Speaker
gang-related maybe, but even then it's rare to hear about on the news. You wouldn't really hear many people. If you did hear it, you'd be like, Jesus, where did that come from? Unless it's something up north and it's an accident with a farmer or something.
00:44:07
Speaker
I mean, other than that, yeah. Scotland just sounds so lovely. It really is. I'm biased right enough. I'm 100% biased on that. But it is definitely better than England, cough, cough. All the English listeners just being like, oh, god.
00:44:24
Speaker
fair enough. But before we end, to kind of end on a positive note, I suppose. Yeah, out of curiosity, were you living in Japan when you started the podcast or did you come back? Yeah, no, I was living in Japan when I started the podcast and the first case that I actually covered was a crime that happened
00:44:44
Speaker
you know, five minutes from my house. It was a young British woman who was working at a bar in Tokyo and she was murdered by a very wealthy Japanese man who was very well known. And I had picked up a book about it before I had even started the podcast and dove right in. And it was really interesting. So yeah, that was actually the first case that I covered. And there are a lot of stories out of Japan. So it was kind of interesting. I think a lot of people even living in Japan don't really know what's going on in their country. So I'd be researching stories while living there and telling people
00:45:14
Speaker
and they were surprised. But yeah, Japan is lovely. That's my PSA. Japan is lovely. Go to Japan. It's safe, I promise. But be vigilant. I was going to say, but if you want to listen to the bad side of Japan, check out serial numbers. But if it's not, I'm only joking. For legal reasons, yes, that's a joke.
00:45:33
Speaker
See, once you did that episode, were you thinking of maybe the wrong word to specialise, but were you thinking of focusing more on Japanese true crime, or did you just think, oh, I want to talk about the wider world of true crime? Well, it caught my attention at first just because it was a young foreign woman living in Japan, and I was a young foreign woman living in Japan.
00:45:54
Speaker
Unfortunately, that's actually a huge problem in Japan is foreign women moving to Japan and unfortunately being murdered. So my intention wasn't just to cover those stories, but it turns out those are the most interesting. Again, no disrespect to Japan because I'm sure it is a lovely place, but I can imagine there would be those sorts of issues, you know, because I've got a friend to live there and it does seem as if
00:46:20
Speaker
Japan is very much a society that, because we've got the same thing in Britain, it's the keep calm, carry on kind of mentality of something bad happens and you know you deal with it and everything but then after that head up
00:46:34
Speaker
chin up, just go about your business kind of thing and don't dredge it up again almost. Or not dredge it up, you know, it's like it's not as if it's forbidden or anything but it almost seems as if there's that kind of reluctance to shine a light on it almost. Oh 100% yeah it's a double-edged sword because when you go there everyone is
00:46:53
Speaker
so polite they could be having the worst day of their life and you would never know it because they will treat you with just the most respect and they'll be completely cordial and just so friendly and outgoing and well let's not say outgoing friendly they are a bit shy and of course i'm generalizing but you know just my experience of meeting people but you would never know if they're having a difficult time because they're taught to just bury their emotions
00:47:19
Speaker
And of course that can create other mental health issues and they're not big on treating mental health. It's more so do your best. Try your best. Go with vigor and force and honor and, you know, always put your best foot forward no matter how you're feeling. That's kind of how things are supposed to be there.
00:47:35
Speaker
again I don't want to diminish by saying oh yeah Britain's the same it's not maybe to the same extent but I can see the kind of issues that would stem from that especially from Scotland and Britain as a whole where it is very much a case of yeah let's just keep going keep at it oh you broke your leg oh it's okay you got another one kind of thing it's like I beg your pardon but you're completely right it is just that worry that if
00:48:04
Speaker
it's not talked about or there's not the proper resources there then it's just going to flourish into something that is a lot bigger than eventually to hopefully not coin a true crime t-shirt. You are going to be part of a true crime podcast probably. I'm stealing that.
00:48:22
Speaker
trademarking that idea. But out of curiosity and just the final point before we finish up, are there any other content creators like podcasters, YouTubers that you like to watch or you get inspired by?
Podcast Recommendations and Access
00:48:36
Speaker
Oh my gosh, yes. Okay, just one second. Absolutely.
00:48:40
Speaker
I gotta get my list here. I always have a list, always a list, because there's a couple, there's just a few that are just really good. I find honestly the best true crime podcasts tend to be indie podcasts because they really put their whole heart into it. So I, there's quite a few. Brew Crime is a really good one.
00:48:58
Speaker
October pod if you need something that is sometimes a side of true crime, but mostly spooky. There's so many. Oh my gosh. Mission spooky is another good one. Reverie true crime podcast. I love my indie true crime podcasters. If you're looking for good true crime podcasts that are doing good, that are well-researched, where the hosts care, look into some indie true crime podcasts. Skip over the big wigs for just a moment and give it a try.
00:49:24
Speaker
There's a lot of true crime fans out there being like, write that down, write that down. Honestly, Nikki, thank you so much for coming on tonight and discussing not only your podcasts, but the wider world of true crime. Thanks so much for having me. It was fun to take a break from all of horrible trauma tragedy that I'm researching right now and just chat about something a little bit more lighthearted, maybe a little dark at times, but a little more lighthearted. So thanks for having me.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah, no, it was honestly a pleasure talking to you, but before we wrap up, where can these lovely listeners at home listen to your content in particular? Yeah, so Serial Napper is on Apple, Spotify, and I also post everything on YouTube in video format as well, but the audio version is available pretty much wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:50:09
Speaker
And yeah, if you want to listen to more episodes of Chat Tsunami, or you know, if you want to listen to this episode again, then you can find us on our website, podpage.com, forward slash Chat Tsunami. You can also find us on the All Good Podcasts app, so just look for the Red Panda under the name Chat Tsunami, and we'll see you there.
00:50:29
Speaker
I also want to give a huge shout out to our Pandolorean Patrons, Robotic Battles poster and Sonya. Thank you so much for supporting the channel, but if you would also like early access to episodes or exclusive content, then you can catch us on patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. But until the next episode, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
Conclusion and Sponsor Acknowledgment
00:50:51
Speaker
Welcome to Chatanami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests. Previously on Chatanami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:51:10
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:51:32
Speaker
Do you have to throw on your favorite true crime podcast before bed in order to fall asleep? Same. And it's the very reason that I created Serial Napper. My name is Nicki Young and I'm here to lull you to sleep or perhaps to give you nightmares with some of the craziest true crime stories that you've never heard of. Find Serial Napper on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Sweet dreams.
00:52:00
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zincaster. If you're a podcaster that records remotely like me, then you'll know how challenging it can be to create the podcast you've always wanted. That's where Zincaster comes in. Before I met Zincaster, I was put a naive podcaster, recording on low quality, one-track audio waves.
00:52:35
Speaker
I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story.