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Episode 75: How to be a Compelling Presenter (Post-Showit United 2019)
309 Plays5 years ago
This is part 2 of my 2-part series with Speaking Coach Mike Pacchione. If you haven’t listened to the first episode, no problem! You can listen to this episode without having to listen to the first part.
Just as a quick reminder about who Mike is: He has flown around the world teaching people how to give presentations. And he’s worked with some pretty big names companies—as he puts it, while he’s not at liberty to discuss every company he’s worked with, if you have used a computer, phone or search engine today, you’re probably familiar with one of his clients.
I hired Mike to help me get ready for my United 2019 keynote presentation. Although I feel comfortable speaking in front of people, I wanted some help continuing to develop that craft, and I chat a little more about that in these episodes.
This episode was recorded after I had already given my keynote at United, and it reflects on my experience working with Mike, and he gives me some feedback on how I did. My hope is that this behind-the-scenes is helpful to you the next time you’re crafting a presentation for a group of people.
The first episode was recorded PRIOR to my keynote, so if you’re looking for some more general advice for giving better presentations, that’s the episode to check out. Mike also critiques a past presentation of mine, and, of course, we get to hear a bit of Mike’s story.
If you’re interested in watching the keynote I presented at United, which was titled: The Only Two Questions You Need to Answer to Win Business (and how to answer them on your website), check out the show notes at daveyandkrista.com.
For the show notes, go to https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-mike-pacchione-episode-75
Recommended
Transcript
Understanding Tension and Story Structure
00:00:05
Speaker
Tension does not need to be like you're on the edge of your seat, like the person in the story might die. It just means that you're sitting there and you're like, OK, what happens next? What happens next? What happens next? And that tension should be released somehow. Stories can be intimidating people because it sounds like it needs to have a creative writing major or something like that. And it takes a long time. A story can take 20 seconds. It doesn't have to be long, but what it can't be
00:00:32
Speaker
is something that does not have a beginning, a middle, and a net.
Introduction to Davy Jones and Mike Pacchione
00:00:40
Speaker
Welcome to The Brands at Book Show, where we help creative, service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
00:00:51
Speaker
This is part two of my two-part series with speaking coach Mike Pacchione. If you haven't listened to the first episode, that's no problem. You can listen to this one and it will still make sense. Just as a quick reminder about who Mike is, he has flown around the world teaching people how to give presentations.
Mike Pacchione's Coaching Expertise
00:01:08
Speaker
To date, he has trained more than 10,000 people.
00:01:12
Speaker
And he's worked with some pretty big companies, as he puts it, while he's not at liberty to discuss every company he's worked with. If you have used a computer, phone or search engine today, you're probably familiar with one of his clients. I hired Mike to help me get ready for my United 2019 keynote presentation.
00:01:31
Speaker
And I chat about this a little bit in the first episode and in this episode as well. But although I feel comfortable speaking in front of a group of people, I really wanted some help in continuing to develop this craft of public speaking. This episode was recorded after I had already given my keynote at United. So Mike and I reflect on my experience working with him and he gives me some feedback on how I did. I hope that this behind the scenes is helpful to you the next time you're crafting a presentation for a group of people.
00:02:01
Speaker
The first episode was recorded prior to my keynote, and I sound a little bit different in it. So if you're looking for some more general advice-giving presentations, that's the episode to check out.
Camaraderie and Italian Humor
00:02:13
Speaker
Mike also critiques a past presentation of mine, and of course, we get to hear a bit of Mike's story. If you're interested in watching the keynote I presented at United, it's titled, The Only Two Questions You Need to Answer to Win Business and How to Answer Them on Your Website.
00:02:28
Speaker
check out the show notes at Davey and Krista.com. Now on to the episode. Welcome back to another episode of the brands that book podcast. I got Mike Pacchione here again with me. I just love saying your last name. Yeah, buddy. Yeah. So we've talked about this super strong last names is Italian, right?
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah, the technical Italian pronunciation would be Pecioni. Pecioni. Which gives me an extremely dramatic name, right? My friend Allison always tells me this. So it's because my middle name is Giancarlo. So it's Michael Giancarlo Pecioni would be full, right? And that is a solid, that's a strong name. And your son has a strong name too. Luca, Luca Pecioni. I mean, that's a strong name as well. But anyways, not here to talk about that.
00:03:17
Speaker
We are here to continue our conversation on just giving great presentations.
Preparation for the United Keynote with Mike's Help
00:03:22
Speaker
I am releasing a second episode along with this episode. If you go back to that, this is a two-part episode, obviously. The first part was recorded before I gave my presentation at Show It United. To give everybody some context, if this is the first of the brands of a podcast that you've ever tuned into, I hired Mike to help me craft my presentation for Show It United.
00:03:46
Speaker
I've given presentations before, but I really wanted to knock this keynote out of the park. And while I feel super comfortable in classroom settings, I just felt like, you know, I guess the best way to put it is when you see somebody who has honed kind of their craft, you know, in public speaking, there's sort of a next level element to it.
00:04:07
Speaker
Don't you agree? So, I wanted to not say necessarily that I got there, but I think I head in that direction and I'm really proud of the presentation that I was able to give at Show United and Mike was a huge part of that. So, this episode though, there's certainly things that I can continue to improve on. So, this episode, we're going to dig into my presentation a little bit. Mike's going to give me some feedback on that and I'm just going to talk in general about some reflections I had
00:04:34
Speaker
on the experience. So, welcome back, Mike. And, you know, maybe we should just dive in. What sort of feedback do you have for me on my United presentation? Well, okay. So, first of all, this is gonna be really interesting for people to listen to because podcast one we recorded two months ago probably. I don't remember. Like, you're gonna release me back. Yeah.
00:04:57
Speaker
People are going to hear a nervous Davey. Like, I mean, unless you edited that part out, like you're talking about like, I hate the presentation right now. I don't remember saying I hate it right now, like in that moment of recording, but I was not in the place where I was the weeks leading up to the presentation. Yeah. So this is what happens to people all the time is you hit that point where you're like, I wish I could just press a button and not do the presentation anymore. But to your credit, like you push through that man.
Importance of Audience Connection and Pacing
00:05:27
Speaker
Thank you. Really awesome to see the end result. The presentation you did at United last year was five minutes long. Yeah, that's right. So just give everybody some context. I've spoken at United before, and I've given breakouts at United before last year, they do this thing called the five minute fuel, which are main stage presentations, but they're only five minutes long. So I'd sent you that as sort of a baseline, just so you could get an idea of a little bit of my speaking style and personality as much as you can in five minutes.
00:05:55
Speaker
Yeah. And when I watched that five minute video, I saw someone who was smart, but was not at ease with himself on stage. Sure. Legit pacing back and forth. Now part of that is you had a microphone in your hand, which is not perfect. But so for everybody, it's better to have like a lapel mic than a handheld mic. David had a handheld mic last year. I do find that challenging. I like to talk with my hands and having a mic in one of them doesn't help.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And especially if you have mic and clicker, now you have two hands with two things. That's strange. Anyway, the before and after from last year to this year is incredible. When I watched you present at United this year, I saw someone who is at ease. That was immediately obvious. Like, as soon as you got on stage, you made a joke. Now, someone who makes a joke when they get on stage is not automatically at ease. Sure.
00:06:45
Speaker
A lot of times jokes are made out of nervousness, actually. But I could tell because you own the joke. Like, listen, it wasn't the funniest joke in the world. But I forget exactly what you said, but you're like, I wasn't that great. OK, it's about me. And you owned it. But you spoke as someone who, if the audience didn't laugh, it wasn't going to crush you. And a lot of people, when they make jokes, it's like if the audience doesn't laugh like this is over, like that's going to have them spiraling out of control. So I mean, really, man, like.
00:07:12
Speaker
You didn't be proud with how at ease you were. I know a lot of that is your own rehearsal, of course. But when someone is on stage and it doesn't feel rushed, it doesn't feel like they're nervous. They're going to forget the stuff that they know when they're not pacing around, when they're able to smile, when they're able to screw up and not have it wreck them. That does so much for the audience. At the end of the day, as an audience member,
00:07:39
Speaker
At least 99% of the time as an audience member, you want to feel like the person on stage is your friend and they're sharing something insightful with you. And that's totally how this speech felt. So I don't want to make it sound like it was perfect, but I mean, you did great. Like just looking at my notes from the first time you talked, you said you used to be a teacher, never done main stage before. You have a lot of ideas.
00:08:03
Speaker
usually get better when they refine them, but a lot of times, Davey doesn't refine them. And the next level would be someone who is invested in the art of teaching. And you said, I'd love to work my way towards that. And I think you did that with this talk, man.
00:08:16
Speaker
I'd spoken main stage before, but not at United. And actually, I guess not at a conference of that size before. So I've spoken main stage on a smaller conference stage. But again, there's just a different environment, I think, when you go from a classroom setting to a main stage setting, especially when there's not things like a Q&A afterwards. So for me, there was a little bit of a bridge that I had to build between
00:08:40
Speaker
There's just this gap that I felt like I had to overcome in getting from still staying true to or still wanting to teach and provide practical insight that people could take home and apply, but at the same time format it in a way where it was digestible in 30 minutes from the main stage. And I do encourage you for those of you listening to go back and listen to the first recording that I did with you, Mike, because like you said, I think there was definitely a solid element of nervousness in there, but I did come to you.
00:09:08
Speaker
And I think in one of our first calls, I told you, hey, I go through this period where I am just a wreck before the presentation. But that period is usually closer to the presentation because this procrastination of preparing up until the time it's due. And Krista jokes that I'll take on an engagement like this, and then I'll want to quit. There's at least one period during the preparation time where I'm like, why did I commit to this?
00:09:38
Speaker
This is an awful idea and I get nervous about it and I hate my talk and so on and so forth. I think really one of the big values in coaching is that, one, you have somebody with an outpriced perspective telling you, hey, it's going to be okay. You're fine. You're good where you're at. Here are the next steps. Then in addition to that, I went through that
00:09:59
Speaker
struggle that tension earlier than I typically would. And so I think I was able to – and we'll talk about this a little bit later – but I was able to kind of transition my talk in a big way closer to the conference and really get it to, I think, a place that I was really proud of without freaking out about it the weekend before.
Overcoming Pre-Presentation Anxiety
00:10:20
Speaker
And again, I think this is something you were going to ask me about later on in the episode. But one thing that I was pretty nervous about as well was being stressed out the entire conference, you know, because I spoke on the last day, I was the second last speaker, they were selling tickets right after I was speaking, after I was done speaking. So I was pretty nervous about that too. Like, you know, you don't want to see a bad keynote.
00:10:42
Speaker
Exactly, you know, I didn't want to bomb my keynote and then them try to sell tickets to United 2020. So I didn't want to be stressed out and I wasn't, you know, like, really, I think I had sort of a healthy nervousness, so to speak, right before getting on stage. But I was able to relax and hang out and enjoy my time at the conference, which was a huge win for me. And something that I told you, I mean, you had asked, where do you want to be? And you were able to help me get there. So super appreciated on that front. But
00:11:10
Speaker
Because let me just start to cut you off. But it was one of your things is you're like, I don't want to wake up the day of being a nervous wreck. Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that wasn't true. Like you were able to get a good night's sleep. Enjoy your time.
00:11:27
Speaker
That was a big thing too. I fell asleep the night before easy. And when I got up, it was go time for sure, that couple hours between then and speaking. But I felt really good and confident going into the presentation. I was able to make some jokes as well without feeling like I was throwing off. I felt so comfortable with the material that I could stray from it a little bit. So all of that, I think. And those were my, going back to my teaching days, those were my best lesson plans where I knew the content so well that I could throw in stuff on the fly.
00:11:56
Speaker
You know, that was a big win for me. You had some really nice things to say, which I really appreciate. However, let's – what everybody's waiting for, you know, and as Krista listens to this episode, she's going to be like, all right, get to it. Tell him where he messed up. Tell him what he needs to improve upon. So, give it to me. What elements of the presentation do I need to continue to work on? Okay. There was nothing where I'm watching it and I'm like, oh, God. Like, he needs to fix this ASAP. Sure.
00:12:23
Speaker
There are a couple of things that I think of as more next steps in your speaking career, you would start to incorporate this stuff a little more. So you and I, when we had phone calls, talked a little bit about the rate at which you speak. I believe that Davey Jones on stage ordinarily speaks pretty darn fast, right? Yeah. So I could feel you on stage actively trying to tell yourself like, slow down a little, slow down a little, slow down a little. We don't need Davey at 1.5. We don't need Davey at 2x.
00:12:53
Speaker
next time around, I want to give you permission to strategically speak at a 1.5 or a 2x. Okay. I don't mean for the entirety of the 30 minutes. Sure. But at times. So when you suddenly speak fast to an audience, that will generally communicate some level of energy or excitement. Think of it like, I always think of that Eminem eight miles song, right? Like,
00:13:18
Speaker
It just like brings this action. Listen, it's not going to be like the eight mile soundtrack. I'm not saying. But it will bring this energy to a certain part of the talk. Sure. So thinking particularly about an ending to a speech, if the ending all of a sudden ramps up in terms of speed, in terms of volume, that leaves the audience on a crescendo. OK.
00:13:43
Speaker
So I think next time around doesn't have to be the ending, although the ending is a good part for it. I would choose a few parts to strategically speak faster and with more power. Okay, awesome. Awesome. I know there's other stuff.
00:13:57
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I thought you were gonna comment that. Yeah, I got. No, no, I totally agree. And it's funny, I think pacing myself is difficult. I talk fast. I like when other people talk fast, to be honest as well. I mean, I listen to all my podcasts on 2x, I've listened to books on 2x. So I just kind of project on to others that they want me to be speaking at 2x, you know, but the truth is that that's a projection, you know, I need to better, I guess, better tempo throughout the presentation. So 100% agree.
00:14:27
Speaker
Just varying it strategically is the thing to do. So the other side of that is strategically going slower. And I would only do that once or twice. That's like, you would do that when you have a particular phrase or a particular word that you want the audience to remember. So an example of that in this talk, you did this a little bit, you could do it even more would be like your catchphrase. Can you do that for me? That's what the audience is always asking when they're on your website, right?
00:14:55
Speaker
So it's like, slow that down even more. Like, can you do that? Pause one 1000 to 1000 for me. You could say that. And obviously that's not the only phrase you can use it with, but slowing it down for emphasis would help you too.
00:15:13
Speaker
Yeah, and for sure, I think silence and pausing is super powerful. So I agree with that. I also think it's really awkward. Yeah, like do you know what I'm saying? Like if you're the one doing it, so I totally see how I can improve upon that because I think the time even between words like let's say you mess up on stage.
00:15:31
Speaker
you know, as you recover, the time in which it takes you to recover, in my head at least, is always like this infinite long period of time, right? Whereas to the audience, it's probably a fraction of the second and something that they, you know, may or may not notice, right? And I feel like that's the same thing with, you know, taking these strategic pauses, you know, is something that I tried to do throughout the presentation, but it probably seemed like a longer period of time to me than it did the people, you know, listening.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. And this is where like, the more you present, the easier this will be. So almost every presenter does that when I'm like, you need to pause for longer, like, no, this feels really awkward. I feel like I'm doing this forever already. Come on, man. Like almost everybody does that. But if you can flip the way you're thinking about it to the fact that you're helping the audience out,
00:16:20
Speaker
that should change it a bit in your head. So it's like, if you're doing a big pause, what you're basically doing is you're like pressing enter on your computer, you're starting a new paragraph, and you're applying a highlighter to those words you're about to say. So you're helping the audience out to understand like, hey, what I'm about to say here, this really matters. Yeah, yeah. Instead of just writing a single really, really, really long paragraph, that doesn't take any sort of break. Yeah, that makes total sense.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah. So again, anything you did badly with that, but that would just be like next level as Davey, like that's something I would implement. Sure. So that's number one is strategically altering your rate and your volume. Oh, by the way, when I say volume, that also means you can talk quietly. So you can say, can you do this for me? So I'm not saying to be soft, like you can be quiet and still have power in your voice.
00:17:18
Speaker
But that would be the last component is it's okay to go soft as well. Awesome. So strategically talking faster, slower, and then just in general volume in there. Yep. So like, so next thing, you did so much better with walking around on stage.
Effective Use of Stage and Gestures
00:17:34
Speaker
Did I though, because I mean, even I think there's a little like, halfway through, I thought to myself, I am moving a lot.
00:17:42
Speaker
are you like, oh, Mike is going to call me out? Because that's not the voice I want to be in your head. No, no, I mean, certainly not. But again, I think that just goes back to the level of preparation I felt, you know, is that I could even the areas where I did, you know, stumble over my words a little bit, I felt super confident in getting back on track. There's different things too, in terms of
00:18:02
Speaker
like the clicker. The clicker was sticking for whatever reason. So slides weren't necessarily going at the pace that I wanted them to go, which if I wasn't prepared, that would have been total. Oh yeah, that would have just been a total distraction for me. But I was able to keep going even without maybe the next slide not having gone exactly when I clicked the clicker. So
00:18:23
Speaker
But again, all that to say, yeah, there's some space there for Mike to be in the back of my head saying, Davey, stop pacing around. Stop pacing around the entire screen. And the other thing too is as I watched the recording of it, which I think was really helpful, you know, they did have to pan back and forth with the camera quite a bit, you know, to cover me. So that was good feedback to just going back and watching that presentation. So I figured it'd be something that you brought up and hammered me on.
00:18:50
Speaker
I'm not hammering you. I would say that Davey from last year would be below average with walking. And Davey from this year, I think average or a bit above. And I think you can still do better with it. So I wanted a couple of things. I wasn't physically in the audience. I didn't know if there was more of the stage than what I saw on video. If there was, I would encourage you to use more of the stage as you're walking. Okay.
00:19:16
Speaker
Especially as you're transitioning between different thoughts or like in this talk you wound up speaking about different parts of the website, right? So you're deconstructing a web page as you're talking about I don't know you're transitioning from the about me page to talking about the contact page That's a great time to take a little bit of a longer walk across the stage It is subtly communicating to the audience that this is a transition hmm, but one of the things that you can do and maybe you've done this already is
00:19:44
Speaker
watch your video with the volume off. Oh, I have it. Yeah. All right. So watch the video with the volume off. I'm writing that one down. It'll probably drive you nuts with the moving on stage. Oh, yeah. I don't know how much I'm going to be able to watch.
Power of Stories in Presentations
00:20:02
Speaker
Gestures wise, you should feel pretty good about it. So people listening, when you were taking like a college level public speaking class,
00:20:11
Speaker
Your teacher probably gave you a really basic version of gestures that was something like, you should use your hands when you are speaking. And that's a good starter. The problem is most people wind up treating both hands as if they have to do the same thing, as if they're like a puppet where you pull the string on one side and both hands do the same thing. Davy, there are a couple of times in particular where I'm watching this and I'm like so proud of you because you're treating your hands as if they are different things.
00:20:39
Speaker
So your left hand is representing thing A. So you just raise your left hand and then you talk about thing B. You put your left hand down, you use your right hand to talk about that. Like those are things that help the audience see that you're making a comparison in the moment. I just snuck a good thing into the criticism section, but my overall point there, one of the things you can do is turn the volume off and see how the speech feels.
00:21:07
Speaker
Okay, I really like that advice. I think that's going to be something that I definitely have to do as I prepare for other presentations, I guess next year. Or, you know, by the time this is released, this will be released in early 2020. So later this year, I guess. And again, I think move it is a tricky thing.
00:21:23
Speaker
On one hand, and it's not even for me walking around and pacing, it's not necessarily a nervous thing. I think in the five minute fuel, a little bit of that certainly was nervous energy. But in general, I just pace. I constantly have to be, if I'm on the phone, I'm walking back and forth. Chris had jokes that I get all of my steps in during my phone calls that day, just because I'm constantly pacing, I'm walking outside, walking back inside. So I think it's partly that too.
00:21:51
Speaker
And I knew that was going to be a challenge going into the presentation, but glad to hear that the gestures were good. Yeah, totally. And then okay, so I have one more thing for you. Yeah, absolutely. And this is something I know that we've I can't remember we talked about this on the podcast or just over phone calls, but
00:22:10
Speaker
You did a great job in this talk of using examples and the next level version of that is actual stories. So I'm making a distinction here. An example is when Davey goes to a website and he says, here's what you should do in this part of the website. Someone who does this really well is Person X. Let me show you her website. That's an example. Yeah. A story is giving me the background on how Person X came up with that. So she used to really struggle with booking clients.
00:22:37
Speaker
And I didn't understand it because her work was fantastic. Well, I went to her web page one day and I saw da da da da da. Right? Like that's a story, something that has a beginning, a middle and an end. Sure. And I definitely relied more heavily on examples, almost exclusively. I think maybe there was a story or maybe one or two stories as I sort of wrapped up, but the beginning and middle of the presentation were very example heavy. Yeah. And that's not a bad thing. That's good. It helps illustrate the point. I just think next level for you,
00:23:05
Speaker
is telling stories from stage. And when you say stories, that word gets used a lot these days. I'm not sure if everybody really knows what they're talking about when they say that word. Is something that has a beginning, a middle, and an end? There should be some level of tension within it. Tension does not need to be like you're on the edge of your seat, like the person in the story might die. It just means that you're sitting there and you're like, okay, what happens next? What happens next? What happens next? And that tension should be released somehow.
00:23:32
Speaker
Stories can be intimidating to people because it sounds like it needs to have a creative writing major or something like that and it takes a long time. A story can take 20 seconds. The number one TED talk of all time, Sir Ken Robinson, is chock full of stories. Half of those stories are like 24 seconds or less. It doesn't have to be long. You can tell a story in three sentences. But what it can't be
00:23:58
Speaker
is something that does not have a beginning, a middle, and an end. And as far as the story goes, I think some common wisdom, so to speak, or something that I commonly hear about presentations is that you should lead into the presentation with the story.
Choosing the Right Presentation Topic
00:24:12
Speaker
Do you think something like that is necessary? Do you think that they're just as powerful in other places?
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah, they're just as powerful in other places. I mean, I think a story at the beginning is a great place to put one because it can set the stage for the whole presentation. But what's tricky about that is sometimes people like to tell a story at the beginning and it doesn't actually connect to the point that they're trying to make. So the story that if you're going to use the beginning, the story needs to drop you off at the main point of the whole presentation. Okay. I like that. So it needs to drop you off at the main point of the whole presentation.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's great insight into that. But would you say that there's other as powerful ways to start a presentation besides a story? Oh, 1000%. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Just a really good first line does the job a lot. Yeah. Okay, so like Gary Hagen's TED talk his first line, I don't know if it's exactly this, he says something like, I wish I was a good crier. Yeah, it just draws in. I haven't heard that TED talk, but now I want to go listen to it.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's something like that. I wish I was good at crying. He says something like that to start things off. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. You just drop. I mean, you're pushed into the pool. That's what a good introduction does is it pushes you into the pool.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. Well, I know that you had some questions for me as well, that we can kind of recap and dive a little bit more into the experience as well. And again, I just want to emphasize that overall, and I think one thing you did, or I really appreciate it is at the very beginning of our experience, you asked me, Okay, where do you want to be? You know, you're going up on stage right after? What does that look like for you? And I really do feel like I got there. So I just want to preface these next set of questions with that.
00:25:52
Speaker
That is awesome. And that is like the greatest thing you can tell me. So now I'm going to give you some softballs. That's why I did it. No, we're flipping this around. Now Dave is going to interview. OK, Davey. So in this talk, one of the things that happened that I had virtually nothing to do with this, you were going to take an angle on the talk. I don't know, for two months we worked on a certain angle on the talk and all of a sudden we went a week between phone calls and I got on the phone with you and you're like, yeah, change the whole thing.
00:26:23
Speaker
Which wasn't exactly accurate, it wasn't the whole thing. Yeah, not the whole thing. So when did you know, what was going off in your head where you're like, you know what, this is the wrong talk. Because for most people that happens, first of all, to your credit, that happened far enough in advance, you could do something about it. Most people that happens like the night before, what was happening where you're like, you know what, I need to switch this approach.
00:26:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there are a few things that came up. One, just one of the initial topics that was thrown out to me as a possibility was to speak on search engine optimization, which to me is not a keynote talk. And everybody that I've talked to since then about like, oh, that was a possibility is like, yeah, no, I'm glad. I'm glad that wasn't the topic. I mean, it's a super interesting topic people, you know, and important in some ways. And it's a great breakout topic, but not a great keynote topic. So from the keynote topic, though,
00:27:14
Speaker
So I think maybe it could be. And we kind of explored possibly one of the potential angles that we initially explored was how people find you, you know, or being seen. And I think that if you kind of extrapolate that concept from search engine optimization, you could include some practical tidbits about SEO and then make it connect to like a bigger life, you know, lesson.
00:27:39
Speaker
Talk about having David Jones and when someone Googles that to come up with like someone from Pirates of Caribbean, like that sort of thing? Yeah, disconnected. I mean, there's all sorts of ways that you could bring it. But at the end of the day, like as far as the impact, I think that provides for people, you know, there are going to be people at that conference that our SEO whizzes all the way down to people who don't even know what SEO stands for. And I think it would have been challenging to bridge that gap. And then I think it would have been a little bit of a stretch just in terms of like,
00:28:03
Speaker
making it practical enough for people to walk away and feel like, oh, that was super insightful. I feel like I got something out of that. And again, not to say that you can't do that with a breakout session on SEO where you get to dive into a little bit of the nitty gritty, because in the past, I have spoken about that. And it's always well attended. And it seems like it's always well received as well, which is why I'd spoken on it multiple times. But for the keynote, I just didn't think it was going to fit. So there was kind of this initial struggle, like, hey, well, then what should we talk about? And I wanted it to be practical.
00:28:32
Speaker
at the same time, keynotes in general, especially I think at this conference, they tend to be a little bit more on the inspirational side. And that's awesome. But I am not necessarily like if I'm teaching like if I'm in that role where I'm leading something, I am not necessarily like the inspirational guy.
00:28:51
Speaker
And, you know, I mean, not to knock my experience or anything like that, but I certainly feel more comfortable. And I feel like I bring most value to people when I'm teaching. So that was like kind of where I wanted to head. And this conference is very much about relationships. So I wanted that to be incorporated into the talk somehow as well. And so that was really one of the like kind of the angle that we're heading in is like, how do you book more work?
00:29:17
Speaker
And one of the primary things that I was going to talk about was relationships. So, first thought was SEO. Second thought was relationships. Relationships is what we were working on. And then, what happened? Yeah, you asked a question and here I am finally getting to the point. I guess there is two things. One, there was another speaker that was going to be speaking on relationships. It was going to be a very different talk than the one I was going to be giving. So, I could have given the initial talk and it
00:29:47
Speaker
You know still be totally fine but the second thing is I just there is a sudden realization even as I was like answering this question about like why relationships are so powerful and booking work is sort of connection between you know websites and what those Taking the same ideas that I was going to talk about and apply them to your website and I'm like, okay This is my topic, you know, it's funny that it took me so long to get there because that's my wheelhouse You know talking about booking work using your website. That's my wheelhouse that it makes sense because that is
00:30:17
Speaker
A lot of times in our wheelhouse, we don't want to talk about it. They're like, oh my gosh, how do people not know this already? Yeah. Yeah, that was definitely a part of it as well. And you know, so I was able to take a lot. So first of all, it took us two months to get to where we were in my current talk. But I was able to take the principles that you had taught me. And within a week's time,
00:30:36
Speaker
come up with this new presentation. And so again, just kind of going back to the value of working with a coach, you know, yeah, I mean, it took you two months to get me to a certain spot. But then I knew that stuff. And I could apply it to this new presentation. And again, I used a lot of content from that old presentation as well. So that's kind of how I got to the topic. And then from that moment on, I was kind of on the other side of the hump too, I felt really excited about the content too. So
00:31:02
Speaker
And that's the best. Like when you hit that moment where you're like, oh, this is good. Like all of a sudden everything opens up. You feel totally comfortable being yourself on stage. Rehearsing doesn't feel like such a drag. Like all of that gets so much better. Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:18
Speaker
There's definitely still an element of nervous energy to it at that point. But again, I think things started clicking into place. Even the relationship aspect of things too, one of the things that I did was every example that I pointed back to was somebody at the conference. Whether it be an educator, attendee, or another speaker, whatever it might be, which I thought was a cool way to incorporate that relational aspect into it into a really practical way.
Emphasizing Authenticity in Teaching Style
00:31:43
Speaker
you know, by featuring some work of other people that were present. So yeah, so that's kind of how I got to the presentation that I gave. So I'm hearing a lot of it is about audience, realizing this is gonna be really hard to connect SEO as a topic is gonna be really hard to connect to people who are on such different levels of expertise already. And then hearing you realize, oh, maybe I should talk about the thing I'm really good at.
00:32:07
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's that too. It's trying not to, you know, I mean, again, going into it, it's like, do I have to be this super inspirational? Do I need to make people cry? You know, that sort of thing. And that's just not me, you know? And so being able to go back, I also got a friend of mine, Jordan Demos, who's also a presenter at the conference. He said a few things along this lines, but basically is like, Hey, man, teachers teach, you know, like going teach and just kind of remembering that as I was putting together the presentation, that was pretty impactful.
00:32:36
Speaker
as well just to you know not try to be somebody that I'm not you know and play to my strengths while at the same time trying to improve in the very practical ways that you are giving me feedback. Yeah and that's great because there are people who get on stage and they're a completely different person than who they are offstage and that's totally fine but it's gonna be a lot easier for you if the gap between who you are offstage and on is not that great a gap. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:06
Speaker
Let's do two or three other questions for you. I'm curious. Most people dread rehearsing. I think one of the reasons why presentations go awry is because people don't rehearse. And one of the reasons they don't rehearse is because they don't like rehearsing because it's awkward and you fumble over your words, et cetera, et cetera.
Rehearsal Strategies and Audience Engagement
00:33:23
Speaker
I'm curious. How did you rehearse?
00:33:27
Speaker
Yeah. So rehearse with music. That's something that's advice that you gave me. Favorite bit of advice. Yeah. And it's super weird at first. And it's hard. It's distracting. What did Davey listen to? There's definitely points where I'm cursing and I'm like, why? This is so just like, why am I
00:33:43
Speaker
You know, but it made a huge difference. I think at the time Blink-182 had just come out with a new album. So I was listening to that while I was rehearsing. Yeah, so rehearsing with music, I made it a point to rehearse twice a day. So rehearse generally, like first thing, that was how I started my day. And then it was the last thing I did before I stopped the day. That's awesome. And when I got there, like when I finally got to a point where I could rehearse, it was probably a two week period where I was able to do that. Yeah. And that's oh my gosh, that's plenty of time. And I don't remember
00:34:12
Speaker
I don't remember what advice I gave you on rehearsing, so I hope I'm not congratulating you for my own ideas, but doing it twice a day is great. Spreading it out is great. A lot of people will cram all of their rehearsal into the last day. That's not bad. The danger is that you end up knowing the speech by repetition because you've done it seven times in a row, and then the next day rolls around, and it's the first time you're doing it, and then it's like, oh, wait, I don't remember this as well. So it was really smart to spread that out.
00:34:42
Speaker
Two other quick questions. What was your favorite part? So you're up on stage for 30 minutes. Was there a part you were looking forward to? And then did there wind up being, you know what I mean? Like when you're getting ready to go out there, you're like, Oh, I can't wait until I get to talk about blank. Or alternately, is there a part that you deliver and you're like, Oh, that was good.
00:35:03
Speaker
Yeah, I was able to speak in a joke about my buddy Jordan at the very beginning he had kind of poked fun at me the day before on stage and so it was kind of like a Last minute sort of on the fly didn't really think about it going in but I do find that getting a good laugh Right at the beginning really does help just momentum wise, you know get into things feel like you have people's attention but as far as like the presentation goes itself there was I'd say the end there's a couple
00:35:29
Speaker
There's sort of a sequence at the end where I'm talking about one of my favorite interviews that I've done on the brands of book podcast with a sleep coach. And so how that sort of ties into the point that I'm trying to make, and why it's powerful to answer the two questions that I'm telling people that everybody has to answer on their website or wherever they show up. So I really liked tying it together that way. If I did choose, what did that sound like? What do you mean? It's a month ago now. What did that sound like? So you're talking about
00:35:55
Speaker
The sleep coach and your interview with her and she was like oh there's a funny thing everybody thinks.
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah, everybody thinks that they're a unicorn. She's saying that the biggest objection that she has to overcome is that everybody thinks that they're a unicorn. So people tell her, well, that's great that your sleep program works for some kids, but it would never work for my kids. And I get to talk about a recent business that I started, and I have to overcome the same objections. But we were able to grow really quickly over the last year because I think we're able to answer those objections or overcome those objections really effectively.
00:36:28
Speaker
So being able to talk about that concept, which really gets at that question, hey, can you really do that for someone like me? And if you haven't heard the presentation, it's actually going to be available on our website as well. So I'll link to that in the show notes. But being able to connect that to the initial questions that I'm telling people they should answer, then going into talking about how we were able to answer those questions sort of as like a case study in that. Does that answer your question? Yeah, totally.
00:36:57
Speaker
I mean, just what I love hearing is, so it's interesting because that's like an extended example that you get to talk about. Almost a story, Davey. Almost. Almost right. Next level, the version V2 of this presentation will have a story.
00:37:13
Speaker
I would consider that a story actually. So you got to tell a story and then you got to equate that to the main point of your talk. Like that's what you just said was your favorite part of the whole speech. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's, I mean, it's just where you get to tie it together for people, you know? Yeah. And I think up until that point, I had a lot of people tracking with me. But I think that there's just a lot of power in, you know, as you mentioned earlier, tying things together with a story and leaving people with a question. Yeah, totally. Alright, so last question for you.
00:37:40
Speaker
Before you were working with me, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm always nervous. The night before, et cetera, et cetera. This time around, you're like, oh, slept like a baby. Went out on stage. Felt great.
Benefits of Early Preparation
00:37:52
Speaker
Instagram people are putting things like I've never seen at Davey T.J. I forget what your name is. Davey T. Jonesy. Davey T. Jonesy. I've never seen at Davey T. Jonesy present this well. I mean, you can hire me for every single talk, but I'm guessing at some point that's
00:38:06
Speaker
Like you don't need to spend thousands of dollars every time you do that. So when you're doing this on your own, what are you going to do differently? So next time you got a presentation, and I mean a presentation that has some weight to it, like what would you do differently next time around?
00:38:21
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. One, I would make sure that I start with the same timeline that I did with you. I mean, we started months out, and I think that was just so valuable. So I'd still start months out, especially if it was a new presentation. I think the rehearsal schedule that I put together myself was effective. I think anything longer than two weeks, then it's just too much time.
00:38:43
Speaker
on it almost. I could see myself, if it was longer than two weeks, starting to go back and second-guess content and trying to improve it in ways that it doesn't need to be improved. So for sure, I guess those are things that you had taught me that I would do again. But I guess in addition to that too, I try to incorporate some of the things that we talked about. When it comes to rehearsal, I didn't have much room to walk even if I wanted to when I rehearsed.
00:39:08
Speaker
So I might try to pick a bigger room, you know, just in the house, and make sure that I'm standing in one place, you know, not necessarily standing in one place, but I'm just controlling my movement a little bit better. So if I do walk to a place on you know, air quotes stage, that I actually stand there and you know, and make my point instead of like pacing back and forth. So I think that's one area just in terms of rehearsal that you know, I would try to tackle that. It's interesting.
00:39:37
Speaker
You know, the idea of starting early is not new, certainly not unique to speaking, but let me just outline how to pay dividends for you because we started working on this in, I think, mid-August for a November talk. It's a healthy amount of time. And when I say that, probably, I mean, I don't know if I were listening to this podcast and be like, oh my gosh, that was so much work. But here's what actually happened is that allowed for weeks where
00:40:05
Speaker
I was on vacation, or Davey was on vacation, or just things got too busy to meet. What most people do is they feel like, okay, well, I'll just be able to cram it all into two weeks. And you can cram some of it into two weeks, but man, just the amount of change that happened in this talk and the success of it is largely because you started early, frankly, you're able to get to the point where you're like, you know what?
00:40:30
Speaker
I shouldn't do SEO. So let me go back to the drawing board. Okay, we're going to talk about relationships as the core subject for this. And we're going to spend like six weeks on that. And then one day I'm going to realize that's not the angle I want to go down. But it's like for most people, it's too late at that point, you still have time to audible. And man, that's one of the reasons why this went really well.
00:40:51
Speaker
I appreciate that. And I think for new presentations, and this was a new presentation. I mean, I end up talking on something that I'm really comfortable with, but still, it was a new presentation. And I think that it just needs time for those ideas to distill, too. I forget what writer said it, but he was writing a letter to somebody and he said something along the lines of, if I had more time, I'd write a shorter letter.
00:41:13
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, I think the same concept applies is that because I'd started early, in part because, you know, you forced me to start early, I was able to distill down the ideas that, you know, I ended up including in my talk instead of going through that kind of freak out mode that I know that I'm going to go through anytime I'm preparing for a presentation. Instead of doing that days leading up to an event, I was able to get through that, you know, months earlier.
00:41:37
Speaker
I really appreciate the time that you took working
Mike's Coaching Services and Conclusion
00:41:41
Speaker
with me. If you haven't listened to the very first podcast, Mike has worked with some incredible speakers out there. I joked with him on the first episode that had I known his client roster, I don't know if I would have had the courage to reach out. It'd be like hiring LeBron James as basketball coach.
00:41:58
Speaker
But anyways, Mike, you were, again, like just a integral part in making this presentation a success for me. How can other people learn about you and maybe figure out how to work with you? Yeah, totally. So working with people one on one is my absolute favorite thing. I am in 2020 going to open up group coaching as well, which that's a pretty good intro for people, whether from a price point standpoint, or like, frankly,
00:42:26
Speaker
A lot of people have just never seen good presentations before. So in the group coaching, we're going to go through what a good presentation looks like. We'll look at examples, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, taking a long time to make my point, ironically. My site is miketalks.co. I know Davey loves my name, but most people have trouble spelling it. So miketalks.co is a lot easier than mikepakion.com. Yeah, we will, of course, link to that in the show notes. So if you have any trouble finding that, you can head there for the link. Oh, I have one more thing. Yeah.
00:42:55
Speaker
After our last podcast, I was just thinking about, like a lot of people asked me about getting better at telling stories. I wanted to talk about that Sir Ken Robinson Ted talk all the time. So actually wrote up a little pretty brief PDF on some of the stories that he tells and why they work. Okay. And there are some things in storytelling that are, you can replicate. Uh, so you can go to my site, miketalks.co slash Ken, and you'll be able to download that Ken, like his first name K and
00:43:24
Speaker
you'll be able to download that as well. Awesome. Well, I will make sure that that's in the show notes for people as well. And again, if you are looking for somebody to help coach you through your next presentation, highly recommend Mike. And Mike, thank you for all your help. Davey, it has been a pleasure when people make a before and after like you did like that, that warms my heart and that makes my job so much easier. Well done, my friends. Well done. Thank you.
00:43:52
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to dvandchrista.com.