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Hello There: Prequel Trilogy Retrospective || Star Wars Month
130 Plays8 months ago
Welcome to our very own podcast in a galaxy far far away as we take on the sci fi franchise that launched a thousand laser swords: Star Wars! From the three main trilogies to a lively discussion about one particular game franchise in the series, this is one themed month you will not want to miss!
In this episode, Satsunami and Andrew tackle the contentious Prequel Trilogy of the franchise. But 25 years after it's debut, is it really as bad as people suggest? Is there some salvation for these films? Or will we do what we must to warn others of it's quality? Well strap yourself into your Jedi fighters and get ready to take off as we discuss the good, the bad and the phantom menace that has spawned both memes and debate within the franchise!
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Review it Yourself
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Transcript
Introduction to Star Wars Month
00:00:00
Speaker
Well Andrew, I cannot wait to show the listeners our video on Star Wars Month opening text crawl. Um, Satsu, you do realise this is a audio-only podcast? Noooooo! Welcome to Star Wars Month.
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the very first episode of Star Wars Month. My name's Satenami and joining me to fight the Separatists is none other than the one and only Jedi Master himself, Andrew. Andrew, welcome back.
00:00:34
Speaker
I've got a bad feeling about this. You and me both. You and me both. But that aside, how are you doing today? I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very pleased to be joining for this Star Wars month. It will be, I think, the third Star Wars related episode that I've been on and I'm very happy to be helping on.
00:00:51
Speaker
yet surprisingly you and I are Star Wars fans and I have to say we haven't done much Star Wars based content over the years for Chatsunami which is really surprising. The very first Chatsunami episode
00:01:06
Speaker
that I ever recorded were Star Wars episodes. They were on the early 2000s Clone Wars cartoon, the Gendy Tarkovsky Clone Wars cartoon. And that was back in what, 2020?
History with Star Wars on Chatsunami
00:01:17
Speaker
So we recorded that maybe 2021. It was a very long time ago. I know you've recorded a few other episodes since then on like the Bad Batch and think you might have done one on the subsequent Clone Wars series. But my first episodes on the early 2000s Clone Wars was the only Star Wars ones that we've done, to my knowledge.
00:01:31
Speaker
Yeah, I'm trying to remember back to if I've done any more because as you said, Yann and I from the Bear and Chill podcast, we did one on the Book of Boba Fett I think and the Bad Batch series when season one had just come out at the time. In the meantime, don't get me wrong, that is cool and all but considering that you and I are very partial, let's face it, to a meme or two in our
00:01:57
Speaker
daily life. The fact is it's really surprising that we have never tackled the main trilogies of this franchise, so we're talking about it for the longest time and I think last year we didn't really get a chance to do an episode on Star Wars because I think at the time we were more focused on Tears of the Kingdom, the Legend of
00:02:19
Speaker
Zelda game and they'll shock order us talking about Legends of Zelda but yeah we were more focused on that and then by the time everything rolled around we never really got the chance so we thought you know what let's dedicate a whole month to this franchise let's rip off the band-aid let's talk about the great of this franchise the medium and the not so well done
00:02:39
Speaker
You might be thinking at home, looking at the title, why aren't we dealing with the original trilogy first?
Revealing the Star Wars Month Plan
00:02:46
Speaker
And for legal reasons, I'm looking at the Red Panda lawyer. He is advising me to tackle this entire month chronologically. So we are starting with the prequels today, then next week we're going to be going on to the original trilogy.
00:03:01
Speaker
are going to be going on to the sequel trilogy. We have got a very special gaming episode planned for week four and then of course we're going to be rounding that off with a lovely trivia quiz. So I cannot wait for that but unfortunately you can't have your pudding unless you eat all your vegetables. So today we are eating the Star Wars vegetables and we are diving deep into the prequel
Andrew's Prequel Memories
00:03:25
Speaker
trilogy. So before we go on and dissect these films as it were, what was
00:03:30
Speaker
you had experience with these films growing up? I had a very fond memory of the prequel trilogy growing up because it was my Star Wars. I was maybe four or five when Phantom Menace came out. I had it on VHS. I watched it probably more than any other Star Wars movie. I went to the cinema to go see Tackle the Clones and then again to the cinema to see Revenge of the Sith.
00:03:51
Speaker
And so I grew up with these films, I thought so fondly of them, and I didn't realize that there was this hatred for them until many years later. And subsequently watching them, I now see the issues that were there in these prequel films, but I was so involved with them. I loved these characters. I thought they were really cool. I loved all the flipping and the quick Jedi moves and the sort of tie-in materials. Like we mentioned, the Gendy Tarkovsky Clone Wars series. I thought that was amazing. Like I had very little interest in Star Wars.
00:04:20
Speaker
otherwise because the original movies were quite slow to me when I was quite young. And these seemed a lot more slick, a lot more action orientated. And so I've had such a strong affinity towards them. But what about you? What were your kind of feelings growing up with these? Yeah, I'm completely with you there because I'm
00:04:35
Speaker
pretty sure it must have been my dad that introduced me to the original trilogy and don't get me wrong I enjoyed them. I really thought they were cool but I remember at the time enjoying the, well now it's called the fifth one but to my dad it would have been the second film and that is something he always jokes about whenever you say oh it's episode one and he's like no episode one's the very first one which we now call a new hope but
00:05:02
Speaker
obviously back then, he would have thought otherwise. But I watched those films and I always thought Empire Strikes Back was a lot better because it was faster paced, it had a lot more action in it. I liked the lightsabers, Sumi, for legal reasons, police notices. And even when I got to Return of the Jedi, it wasn't that big of a fan. I know that's something we'll talk about next week in depth, but yeah, Empire Strikes Back for the Longest Time was my favourite.
Prequels' Appeal and Childhood Excitement
00:05:29
Speaker
and then all of a sudden people were so excited about this film and I remember being absolutely swept up in the craze because I enjoyed these old films and then I was like okay I'm gonna go see them and my mum and dad very kindly took me to see them.
00:05:44
Speaker
them. I know what you mean when you say these are a lot flashier because compared to the old ones, these are definitely a lot more in your face with the visuals, with the action, with the choreography and things whereas the other ones are a lot more slow and mythic.
00:05:59
Speaker
they're almost like, and I know this is something we'll mention next week, but they're a lot more based on traditional samurai films, that kind of slow paced action, whereas as you said, you've got these flips and these bursts of colour going everywhere. It was just, it was something to behold as a young child. And I remember it was just
00:06:20
Speaker
absolutely everywhere it was printed on snacks, it was printed on different merchandise.
Revisiting Prequels as Adults
00:06:27
Speaker
I actually remember nearly getting into a fight with another person in primary school over this. I don't know if I've told you but there was this packet of crisps where it had Obi-Wan on the front
00:06:38
Speaker
But because it was so poorly printed on the front, it discovered these lightsabers. So there was this person going around troll and everyone saying, oh yeah, his lightsaber's purple. And of course I was like, oh no, it's blue blah blah blah. And you know, it's so stupid looking back on it like that. But at the same time, this is how passionate kids were at the time about these films. And you know, I had the toys, I had the Lego especially. But I do remember watching Attack of the Clones and not feeling as invested
00:07:07
Speaker
in it and I remember sitting there thinking this doesn't feel right, there was something about it and of course I was too young to look at it as critically as I can now but of course I watched Revenge of the Sith, I loved it in cinemas. Then after that there was a slow discourse because as you said when we were growing up the internet wasn't as
00:07:29
Speaker
It was still there but it was starting to gain arms and legs and things and by the time 2005 rolled around that's when it started creeping in but before that we grew up in a relatively naive time to be like oh well I didn't like this I thought that was cringey but it was our own opinions you know and it is something I'm gonna bring up later because I feel as if this is a very interesting point about it but
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, I thought they were good at the time, but the more and more you look back on them, the more and more you think, okay, these aren't the films I remember. It's actually something that Martin McAllister mentioned when him and I were talking about the Pokemon film. And he was saying how when you watch the Pokemon film, you watch the beginning and the big action scene between Ash and the other random trainer he was fighting was. You remember the action scenes with Mewtwo.
00:08:24
Speaker
everything in between you kind of forget because they're slow, they're boring, they're not as memorable. So then when you go back to watch these films, you're like, oh my god, this is just an absolute train wreck. And that's what the prequels feel like for the most part, where there's like a lot of bits in between that are just absolutely unneeded,
Cultural Impact of Prequel Memes
00:08:46
Speaker
I suppose. And you know, I'm not a professional editor, so like neither of us are. No offense, Andrew, you do a fantastic job as well. Wouldn't go that far.
00:08:53
Speaker
listen to Stop, Drop and Roll initiative to find out, but it's quite a strange staple of pop culture because see other than, and this is something we actually did bring up in our review of the Hobbit films, but see beyond the Hobbit films, can you think of any film series that has the same impact as the Star Wars prequels do? There's a certain meme ability to the prequel films that I think any of the subsequent trilogies there certainly exists.
00:09:20
Speaker
memes from the original trilogy or the sequel trilogy, but it does have that lasting impact of it just being very silly. There's an appreciation in some ways of certain elements of it being cool that some of the memes are, and some of the jokes are laughing with the series instead of at it.
00:09:37
Speaker
but it does hold a place in the cultural kind of imprint within movies that I don't think others really do. You mentioned The Hobbit. I couldn't say that The Hobbit comes anywhere near Star Wars in the sense of it being a prequel trilogy that it just doesn't match to the original trilogy for sure, but I think that that does exist elsewhere. I couldn't name it off the top of my head, but I know that that is a thing in other film franchises.
Internet's Role in Prequel Criticism
00:10:02
Speaker
Star Wars is very much a
00:10:04
Speaker
place unto itself. There is not really anything that compares to it in terms of the cultural impact that it has had and the prequel trilogy sort of impact in a very different sense. I've gone so far away from the point you're making that I think I forgot to be honest. Much like George Lucas, and you know what, that is the perfect segue to get into this episode.
00:10:25
Speaker
So yeah today we are indeed going to be talking about the Star Wars pre-cultureology from 1999 all the way to 2005. God that makes me feel old and yeah we are going to be talking about the Phantom Menace, we're going to be talking about Attack of the Clones and last but not least we are going to be talking about Revenge of the Sith.
00:10:45
Speaker
So get your podracers ready, get your, I was gonna say blue milk, but I don't think that was a thing in these films. And yeah, we will be right back after these messages. Now that's podcasting. Welcome to Shatsanami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests.
00:11:04
Speaker
Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Bayblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe,
00:11:34
Speaker
Stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:11:44
Speaker
fancy taking the humorous trip down a random topic each week? You do while you're in luck. Casting Views presented by me Dan and a host of guests bring you just that. With topics from the world of entertainment, science, sport and everyday life, there's bound to be a topic that's going to inform on the news. Catch Casting Views every Sunday on all listening platforms now.
00:12:09
Speaker
So before we go into these films, there is something that I need to bring up that you brought up of course in the intro and that is something that you said about the meme-ability of this film. So nowadays there's a lot of websites like Reddit in particular and other websites that meme a lot of the scenes. So even if you're not a Star Wars fan, you've
00:12:33
Speaker
probably seen some scenes in some form or another, for example you've got your hello there, oh I'm not brave enough for politics, it's treason then, I'm the senate, you know, all of these types of, I suppose meme time capture.
00:12:49
Speaker
It's the only way I can describe it because I feel as if the internet has somewhat put these series of films on life support. And I know you said that Star Wars is so big that it's not really going anywhere as such anytime soon, but do you think the internet has played a significant role in that regard for keeping this franchise within the public consciousness?
00:13:16
Speaker
That's where most definitely I don't think that the interest in these films would have largely have not necessarily died away. But I think that it would not have held the same level of interest impact that people wouldn't be making an effort to continue watching them if not for how they were memeified, like how people joked about them online. I do think there are and we'll get into that there are merits in the films within this trilogy. But I don't think that those merits stand up to test of time well enough for that they are substantial enough.
00:13:44
Speaker
to garner continued interest in the films in the way that it has been. And I have to say that does bring me on to my next point perfectly, so thank you so much for that. No problem. Yeah, with the internet I've said there that it's been preserved in terms of memes and rose tinted glasses and things like, oh look at how cool Darth Maul was in The Phantom Menace, oh look at the cool Colosseum scene from Attack of the Clones, oh look at all the memes from
00:14:11
Speaker
from Revenge of the Sith but there's one particular series that I want to bring attention to and I feel as if this is just such a double edged sword overview and it's one of the more iconic ones that I can't remember if you've seen or not and that is the Red Letter Media Reviews.
00:14:29
Speaker
I've not, no.
Influence of Critical Reviews on Perception
00:14:44
Speaker
comical review of the whole trilogy and they do it over long videos if not an hour and a half per film. It's interesting because they are so thoroughly detailed and they make some great points but at the same time this was one of the reviews that absolutely dominated the discourse around these films that people were saying all of
00:15:07
Speaker
course you know this makes no sense, that makes no sense and you know what the internet's like as soon as they get a good thing they run that into the ground and they just keep parroting the same thing and saying oh no this isn't great, this isn't great and I feel as if on the one hand the reviews are entertaining as a whole but because of how popular these reviews have gotten they've somewhat blinded a lot of people to the merits
00:15:33
Speaker
of these films, so is skewed in a lot more of a negative aspect than it is a positive. On that note though, do you think that the internet discourse, in particular the negativity around the pre-cultureology, has somewhat impacted the way people look at these films?
00:15:52
Speaker
I think in some ways, I think that I don't know that I necessarily was fully aware of the negatives of the movies until I kind of entered the internet sphere and the internet discourse, where I then started questioning like, hey, you're right, that was kind of stupid. That didn't make sense. Why did they do that? And then subsequent watchings, I am then kind of drawing my own opinions, having now watched
00:16:15
Speaker
more movies, not just Star Wars, just in general. We're like, you know what? That acting was not very good. The writing choice for those lines were very poor. I'm able myself to now matured to distinguish the fact that these are not very good movies and that there's a lot of very negative elements to it. But I think that the internet did nudge me in that direction. And I think that that is likely the case for many others. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think the internet is probably up there with one of the main culprits for creating this negativity around the pre-code trilogy. And before I go on, I just want to make this clear to the listeners that I know the flaws of the pre-code trilogy, even though I grew up with them and at the time I enjoyed them, I have gone back and re-watched them several times. And other than The Revenge of the Sith, these are films that I don't necessarily look
00:17:07
Speaker
forward to going back to because there's a lot of things that have been dated or just do not hold up well. I mean one of the major things is of course George Lucas's somewhat fanaticism when it came to imploring CGI and effects like that because back in the 70s Lucas had some absolutely groundbreaking practical effects and I've actually got a copy of the
00:17:35
Speaker
DVD of one of the original cuts for the film and let me tell you it is so satisfying to see all of these practical effects going on on the screen whereas nowadays when you try to get a copy of the old films they're just littered with CGI and things but at least you can kind of think alright well at least the films are written competently, they're shot competently, they've all got a great thematical things whereas for this set of films I think
00:18:04
Speaker
George Lucas was more inspired when they saw his friend Steven Spielberg do films like Jurassic Park, which again, that was groundbreaking for its visual effects, but I find it quite sad they looked at that and they thought, I'm going to make a Star Wars film based on this T-Rex.
Effects of CGI vs. Practical Effects
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, he just went ahead of course and he made the trilogy and it received a very lukewarm reception, no pun intended. But it is quite interesting because is this something you notice when you do watch this trilogy? That there's just so many CGI effects littered everywhere.
00:18:41
Speaker
Interestingly the scenes that sort of made me think of it the most were on I believe it was Coruscant when they were in any of the offices or bedrooms or anything like that and you'd see out the window and there's always this high rises and spaceships flying behind them. That always stood out to me more for some reason than any of the other special effects because it felt just like there was a screensaver behind them.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, because it's especially, and granted I'm taking this from the Red Letter Media Review, but this was something that they pointed out that I cannot get in my head now, but in Coruscant, the big metropolitan wasteland as it were, you see all these ships flying constantly in the background and there's never any change. And when you watch the Order 66 scene where Anakin's
00:19:23
Speaker
marching on the Jedi Temple and everything and there's this huge political coup and he's killing them off. Everybody's just driving normally. There is no difference on the planet whatsoever. There's no rubbernecking, looking round going, what the hell is going on in the temple? They're all just driving to their
00:19:40
Speaker
Night Shift, there's not really a dynamic background I think is the main thing for me in this because if you look at the behind the scenes, some of the sets are just absolutely terrible because it's literally just a massive green screen and everything that they're interacting with, whether it's aliens or anything else in the world, it just, it all seems very non-organic.
00:20:05
Speaker
obviously because it is CGI generated but what I will say is I did think that the CGI got better by the time Revenge of the Sith rolled around but from 1999 and I know that's kind of not fair because again this was a relatively new movie making tool that they were imploring but
00:20:23
Speaker
yeah I don't think it holds up personally and again I don't want to sit here and be like oh practical's the best they should always use practical because practical effects can sometimes look absolutely terrible and bring you out of it but I don't know I just I don't think that it held up as well although then again that wasn't the worst thing about these films was
00:20:45
Speaker
See, no, I actually disagree. I think that the practical effects, especially for the time they were made, were incredible. I think for the most part, the practical effects all still hold up. I think that is probably one of the most redeeming features of those movies, the fact that they managed to have these effects that 25 years later still hold up. It is 25 years now since The Phantom Menace came out.
00:21:06
Speaker
That's depressing. It's an anniversary unto itself, isn't it, that we're reviewing it just now. Funnily enough, it came out in May 1999, so the time of this coming out will be almost 25 years to the day. I actually don't know if they're supposed to be re-releasing it in cinemas, although I could be wrong on that, because remember they were going to do that before Disney bought them, and they brought out the Phantom Menace, and then they were going to bring out Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. But then after Disney bought them, they just pulled it, and then they never did it again.
00:21:33
Speaker
I don't remember that, but I believe you. I just remember the big posters everywhere, yeah.
00:21:39
Speaker
The posters, The Phantom Menace has probably one of the best movie posters ever. Do you know the one I mean? It's like young Anakin walking away from his little hut on Tatooine and the shadow that's projecting off of him onto the side of the hut is Darth Vader. That's pretty cool. There was such a level of hype for these films. And I think that set the tone of being like, Oh my God, this is going to be so awesome.
Political Undertones in the Prequels
00:22:00
Speaker
With regards to the effect, I actually did look it up and there were 1,950 shots thereabouts that have visual effects just in The Phantom Menace.
00:22:07
Speaker
Before we go into the negatives, will we talk about some of the positives of this trilogy?
00:22:37
Speaker
look at the shiny thing. It's funny you should say on the flip side because that's one of the negatives of the fight scene, the amount of flips that they're kind of incorporating. Oh, some of them are so unnecessary. I was watching Revenge of the Sith and the preparation for this. Why Count Dooku does a flip off the balcony? The amount of times that they did flips into attacks, surely that can't be beneficial.
00:22:59
Speaker
I get like maybe there's some level of momentum that you're gaining from doing that but surely it leaves you open way more than any other way of approaching an attack. You can kind of get it from a Yoda's perspective because he's very small and so he kind of needs to do that maybe. But I mean even Palpatine does that.
00:23:16
Speaker
Why does Palpatine does that weird spinning thing where he launches towards someone but does a little spin attack from Pokemon? I'm thinking even more when it's just him versus Mace Windu and I could be remembering this wrong but it's not about where it's like he just flips off the wall for no reason. That's the scene I'm thinking of. He's fighting Mace Windu and he jumps towards him and he does this weird spiraling kind of jump.
00:23:37
Speaker
Oh yeah, there's that as well. You know, when he kills the four Jedi, or sorry, three Jedi Masters and then they leave space for us. Was one of those Jedi Masters Kit Fisto? Yep, everybody brings this up.
00:23:49
Speaker
such a shame because he's such a cool character, visually he's so distinctive and everything and he got absolutely bodied in two seconds. I don't care about the others but that especially was very hurtful. It's weird because I think there is and I could be wrong in this but I'm sure there's alternative choreography for that fight scene but for whatever reason I'm sure they must have either
00:24:12
Speaker
cutter or, you know, maybe because of shooting restrictions, there was something to do with that. They had to change it up. But the final product at the end of the day, we can't talk about the what ifs and things, but at the end of the day, for the finished product, it just does not hold up.
00:24:28
Speaker
start out discussing the positives of the trilogy. You've already gone into the negatives. This is what the prequel trilogy does. It gets you so high up on this feeling of ecstasy and, oh, it's going to be a great film. And then it pulls you right back down with one scene. But do you know one positive I want to touch on, although technically it's a bittersweet positive,
00:24:50
Speaker
I actually like the ideas that the pre-cultureology goes for that it tries to be more of a kind of political thriller and things because I know technically everybody hates that about it and I can see why. I can see why people were bored about trade disputes and scholastic taxation. I know what Lucas was going for. I can see it because I mean I've watched enough Star Trek to know where this is going but
00:25:18
Speaker
I like the ideas of this subtle rise to power in the background with Palpatine and things like that but I don't think it's so much a problem that there was that kind of spin on it. I think the problem was in the words of what happened to Count Dooku, the execution as it were. Like what did you think about that? Do it.
00:25:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's never going to go down particularly well when you're trying to kind of get into the weeds of why wars happen. The original trilogy, they were guerilla rebel fighters, largely kind of based on the Viet Cong. And so there wasn't that sort of level of senatorial politics and bureaucracy that surrounds the prequel trilogy.
00:25:57
Speaker
The original trilogy, you were just like, all right, how do we accomplish this? We need to get like this team needs to go there, this team needs to go there. Whereas because they're not in that society in the prequel trilogy, it's a much more, it's not a peaceful society because they're at war, but they are the culture, the society that is in control. And so there is this level of bureaucracy, the Senate and the councils that you have to sort of go through to make things happen. But at the same time, does there need to be as much focus on those aspects?
00:26:25
Speaker
it's a tricky one. And I kind of understand what George Lucas was going for with that. And so I think that the politics side of it may be it's not necessarily bad that there are politics in there. I think it just wasn't dealt with very well. I think that there's lines from Anakin about politics on my right that just feel very kind of
00:26:41
Speaker
I mean, maybe this is going to be a controversial take, but he is like the average Twitter user, isn't he? It's like, I'm not political, but, and then he comes away with the most controversial opinion. Oh yeah, like he's like, I don't really believe in politics, but what if does everyone have to do what we told them to do and just like didn't protest?
00:27:00
Speaker
and he's like whoa and I couldn't, whoa! I know my jaw hit the ground because I completely forgot about that scene when in Attack of the Clones. Keep in mind this is like a romantic scene, this is him trying to court the woman he's going to marry and have babies with and he's like you know what's cool guys? If we had some kind of form of government where one person took control and told to everybody what to do, you know that would be so
00:27:27
Speaker
Well, she's like, oh, that's authoritarianism. And Anakin's like, sounds pretty good to me, though, right? And then he just came to stroke the officer. Womp womp. You're like, Jesus, the red flags. Just remember, there are heroes of both sides.
Narrative Clarity and Choices
00:27:42
Speaker
Oh,
00:27:42
Speaker
get me started. That is actually in the opening crawl and I text you when I was rewatching this and I was like what does that even mean? Because in Revenge of the Sith and the opening crawl it's like oh war across the galaxy blah blah blah which is all fine and good but then it says there are heroes on both sides. Okay so later in that movie you kind of learn actually the trade federation are pretty messed up they seem pretty evil but not everything about the separatists is bad but we don't know that yet
00:28:12
Speaker
From what we've been shown in the previous two movies, the separatists are this evil kind of group, they're just sort of tr-concy trying to take over and kill people with robots. And so we don't know that there are heroes on both sides. If you had shown any element of that in the first two films, then it would have made sense to have that in the title crawl.
00:28:28
Speaker
But we don't get that. In the Star Wars Clone Wars, not the Geni Tarakowski one, the CGI one, they do explore that. And they explore that in quite an interesting way with groups of separatists that aren't like the political side of the separatist movement that you learn. Actually, they're not so bad. And like, you can understand why they have that position. But we've not seen any of that in the first two movies. And so this comes out of nowhere. And you're just like, really? You're really doing a both sides that can be bad and good kind of angle here when there's been no evidence of it.
00:28:56
Speaker
You had messaged me that and I thought that maybe there was like a line halfway through the movie or something. And I was like, all right, whatever. And then I put the film on and it's the first sentence, pretty much, of that title crawl. And I messaged you and I was like, really? Really? Yeah. Especially in this day and age, that type of line does not hold up very well. Yeah. It does not. No, it doesn't. But there are other good aspects to these movies. There are good films on both sides.
00:29:23
Speaker
on both sides of Attack of the Clones. The whole Darth Maul secret threat was pretty cool. I enjoyed that. The double-ended lightsaber, a cool concept. I enjoyed that. The pod racing, don't like it as much anymore, but it's still a cool concept. I enjoy that kind of lore building there and the introduction to Anakin's powers and his strong piloting ability. Can you think of anything?
00:29:42
Speaker
What, for the whole trilogy or just for The Phantom Menace? As I'm sure it was. Yeah, I guess I mean like that's just The Phantom Menace. Even in Attack on the Clones there's some cool bits. I kind of like the Clone Army stuff. I think that's interesting. I enjoy elements of the Jango Fett storyline and it gets pretty boring for a lot of that film but then you get to the fighting Coliseum, the fighting pit. That's enjoyable. I enjoyed that.
00:30:06
Speaker
And then in Revenge of the Sith, I like Obi-Wan. I really dislike Obi-Wan in the first film. I do not like Obi-Wan in the second film, but like in the third film Obi-Wan is better. The acting ability of Ewan McGregor, Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman does improve by the third film. Hayden and Natalie in particular were not good in the second film. Ewan McGregor was also not very good in the first or second film, but by that third film, you can see that their acting abilities have improved.
00:30:31
Speaker
My acting has doubled since we last met, Count. Good. Doubled the pride. Twice the acting. Indeed.
Prequel Fight Choreography
00:30:38
Speaker
Indeed. I am so angry that's not a meme but anyway so that's another-
00:30:43
Speaker
as another rant. Twice the confidence, twice the downfall of whoever it was. No, not even that. The 2000 and this is so damn niche, I'm honestly such a Star Wars nerd, but you know in the 2003 Clone Wars there's a scene where this alien goes up to Count Dooku, speaks in complete alien gibberish and nobody translates it. Not even the people who made the cartoon translated it. And you're sitting there listening to this and all Dooku says at the end of it is,
00:31:11
Speaker
and then just walks into the cave and they've seen progressions. Why didn't you just give us subtitles? What was the reasoning for this? Hashtag just introvert, thanks. You make a good point there though, because I mean you make several good points when you just get that straight. But going back to something you were saying there, say about the Clone Wars especially, not the 2003 version but the, I want to say 2007 but it could have been later, I love the way that the
00:31:39
Speaker
Clone Wars series that I know the film was in 2008 and then they brought out the series later on but I really enjoy the way that they tackle the Clone Wars and the nuances and the intricacies behind it and they do it in such an engaging way that is really interesting even the boring bits like there's one where the Republic end up taking a planet that is essentially space Switzerland where it's just a big bank on a
00:32:07
Speaker
and it controls all the influx of currencies doing well this and that and you know it's something that you kind of think well that would be boring anywhere else but because they're doing such an engaging way you know you think that is so
00:32:22
Speaker
such a clever thing that the republics future-proofing themselves by taking control of where the money's flowing from. So small things like that I thought were done fantastically, but I think the major thing that I really dislike about the prequels is purely the fact that there isn't really much of a focus
00:32:42
Speaker
I feel as if the story-building is very much scaffold storytelling. What I mean by that is, obviously, Lucas wanted to tell the story of Anakin Skywalker. He wanted to tell the rise of this tragic figure. He became a more hero. No, not the rise of Skywalker. We'll get two weeks for that.
00:33:03
Speaker
But yeah, you've got him as a child, then he becomes a war hero, and then he turns into the lovable Darth Vader that we know and love today, who is on the box of Cheerios, no doubt. But the fact of the matter is that while that idea is sound in theory, there was no focus for the first film. If you cut the Anakin stuff out, you genuinely would not miss anything. And when you can cut all sections of a film out and not miss anything from it, that is when you know that something's got
00:33:33
Speaker
terribly wrong and again this is something that they brought up in the Red Letter Media review but something I found interesting about the Phantom Menace was the fact that in the original trilogy when they had the conclusion they had a very specific way of
00:33:49
Speaker
telling it. So in the very first film they just had the assault on the Death Star and oh they're gonna blow up Yavin Ford, are they not gonna blow it up? In the second film they had a split focus so one half was them trying to rescue Han, the other half was Luke fighting Vader but then in the third film for Return of the Jedi they had a three-way split so they had the assault on the Death Star 2, the Luke and Vader story and then they had the assault on the bunker but they
00:34:17
Speaker
Then the Phantom Menace wraps it up and has four different perspectives. They have Padme's perspective, they have the iconic fight between Wigle and Obi-Wan and Darth Maul, they have the Anakin one and then they have the Gungans, which is something we will touch on soon, don't you worry. And I feel as if the worst part of the prequels is that the Phantom Menace should have been reworked and even condensed
00:34:42
Speaker
I genuinely think that the Phantom Menace should have been an example where they showcased, and again 2020 hindsight is a wonderful thing, but they should have had the Phantom Menace show off the Republican decline, how things are a bit touchy at best when it comes to the way things are governed. They talk about the whole thing about slavery in the Outer Rim and things and how the Republic's doing nothing, but let's face it that plot point goes
00:35:10
Speaker
absolutely nowhere other than getting Anakin out of that life to which he says yippee but again that's another thing but I definitely think that should have been the focus and then the opening or the beginning of the Clone Wars or at the very least to try and get some emotional connection into this setting because you know about Coruscant and all these locations are cool. I love Naboo and Kashyyyk's cool and places like that but you
00:35:37
Speaker
not really got that emotional investment because let's face it, all the clones up until before obviously the Clone Wars came out, they were just CGI backdrops. You know, they weren't really characters. Am I wrong in thinking that? Sorry, that they should have condensed the Phantom Menace.
00:35:54
Speaker
I think there were certainly plot lines they could have avoided. I mean, the Gungan plot line. If you'd remove Jar Jar and the Gungan plot line, would there have been anything lost? Were they important in any other way? Yeah, because they'd never really come back again, do they? For obvious reasons. But not even that, just in the context of the Phantom Menace. They have their own battle, which from a story perspective, if the Gungans weren't involved in the story, they wouldn't have even had to write into that battle. They have Jar Jar guide them through the water to another location, I want to say.
00:36:23
Speaker
yeah the planet's core i don't even remember why they went to the planet's core because i think boss nass wanted to get them killed because it was like a really dangerous way but they go through it anyway so there was no point in that scene yeah then you could have just removed
00:36:38
Speaker
If you'd removed the Gungans and their plotline entirely, you would have trimmed off a significant chunk of a very long movie and would have felt a lot more trimmed to steam by doing that. And when Jar Jar came onto the screen, my partner went, oh great, it's him, my favorite. And then a couple of minutes later, is he going to be in it much? Oh no.
00:36:54
Speaker
I was like, in this one, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, you can not take him seriously on this one, and I know that's kind of the point. Actually, one thing I want to touch on with Jar Jar, and it's kind of a semi-serious topic, is the fact that the hate for the character got so bad that the actor for Jar Jar, I think it's Ahmed Best, he went through a severe mental health breakdown and things, and
00:37:21
Speaker
I really feel sorry for the guy because, you know, it's obviously not his fault that this character was so poorly written and so poorly visualised because I think there's the fan theory that, oh, Jar Jar was supposed to be a Sith Lord and things, but that would have been
Jar Jar Binks Backlash and Actor's Struggles
00:37:37
Speaker
so dumb. I'm not gonna lie, that would have been so stupid if they went through with that committed, but I am
00:37:42
Speaker
kind of glad in a way that the same actor who actually played Jar Jar in Granted, I didn't know this until I looked it up, but he returned in The Mandalorian as a Jedi. He was like a Jedi, wasn't he? Yeah. And I think he did a spin-off show for
00:37:58
Speaker
It was like kids who were training to be Jedis, like a game show, not part of the canon. But I thought that was really cool as well, that they'd still be rolling back for something different. So I'm glad it's not put him off in that regard to the franchise. But at the same time, I can see why people severely disliked
00:38:18
Speaker
the character and don't get me wrong Star Wars is a very fickle fandom. There's a lot of fans who take things way too far in the way that they say things like oh Star Wars ruined my childhood and oh grumble grumble this and that but at the end of the day you know they're sci-fi films like it's not that serious but then at the same time Jar Jar is quite... I don't want to say abomination but
00:38:44
Speaker
Yeah, he's not great. They could have kept Jar Jar in it, but had it as a very brief appearance. A one-off scene where we meet this kind of goofy character and that would have been whatever. Star Wars does that. You do meet sort of strange aliens and that kind of thing, but he did not need to be retained for the remainder of the films and particularly be such a prominent focus in the first film.
00:39:03
Speaker
I'm not treading new ground here, but it feels like a weird, like racial stereotype as well, him and the Gungun people. And then they do that a bunch with other characters in the prequels, like what else was like a strange kind of racial stereotype. And then you had the Trade Federation, the Moideans, yeah, group who are very odd, like East Asian racial stereotypes. And so I couldn't remember each one. But I still don't think that that was really as much a thing in the original trilogy. They didn't really try and do anything like that. But I could remember that wrong.
00:39:30
Speaker
As far as I remember off the top of my head, I mean, there are a lot of, let's just say, problematic stuff that pops up and especially Return of the Jedi, but I wouldn't say there was as much in that regard. Again, obviously you can make the argument that it maybe wasn't as diverse in that film back then as it is going forward, but
00:39:52
Speaker
I know what you mean, it's kind of a weird choice how they characterise some of these aliens and things like that and I don't think it was intentional but again it's very odd. I do think it's kind of strange the way you watch it back because I remember watching the gungan speak and I just sat the entire time thinking I feel as if I should be offended but I don't know what that
00:40:18
Speaker
just watch it. Yeah, it does seem like a mix of attempts at different cultures.
Racial Stereotypes in Aliens
00:40:23
Speaker
Yeah, like the primitive culture away from society at large. Yeah, not a good look. It is a very bizarre choice. And again, with Wado as well, it just feels very gross.
00:40:33
Speaker
it rubs you the wrong way how they characterise a lot of these characters, the voices they give them and the appearance of them that matches the voice they give them which doesn't help.
00:41:03
Speaker
and you can kind of see why they do it in that because looks out of his depth, he goes to a place he shouldn't, they see that as a threat and they attack him and everything. But then when you get to the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, again, they are absolute monsters and it's literally not until the Mandalorian of all things that actually humanises them and shows you that they have this culture, this whole language, you know, I think
00:41:30
Speaker
the Mandalorian, the Beast, their sign language of ASL, American Sign Language, which I thought was amazing. But then I felt bad rewatching Attack of the Clones, watching Anakin strike them all down, which is another red flag. The Mandalorian and the Book of Boba Fett very much
00:41:46
Speaker
do so much to humanize the Tusken Raiders and they seemed like Disney are going on their way to redeem the damage that George Lucas had done with regards to that kind of representation. It was a very uncomfortable rewatch in how Anakin spoke of the Tusken Raiders and also how they wrote the Tusken Raiders to Anak
00:42:03
Speaker
that they kind of made them these monsters that were just kidnapping and enslaved. We don't really know what they were doing to Anakin's mother whose name is like Shmee or something but we can kind of infer and it doesn't seem good. It's surprisingly it is one of the darkest scenes in the franchise I have to say. When he finds out
00:42:22
Speaker
tied up she's bloodied and you know it's absolutely a horrific scene so you can understand and again not just define the action but you can understand why he went absolutely ballistic and everything but the thing is and this is something i said on twitter that i get the feeling i'm probably gonna get a lot of ire for is the fact that for the prequel trilogy i feel as if it's almost like somebody tried to slip a star trek script
00:42:46
Speaker
into the prequel trilogy and you can see how things don't really mesh together and especially for that scene because that is a very very important scene for Anakin's
Character Development and Anakin's Arc
00:42:59
Speaker
development. He's just seen his mother who
00:43:01
Speaker
he's been gone for 10 years, he comes back to free her and then all of a sudden she has been killed by this tribe of Tusken Raiders and he goes out of his way and he kills them but then of course later on you get the scene where he confesses to Padme, he says no I killed them not just the men but the women and the children too which should be a very powerful scene
00:43:23
Speaker
but then again, it just kind of gets brushed over where they're like, right, OK, I've had my outburst, let's move on with the plot. It feels as if there's a lot more that could be said, there's a lot more nuance that could be thrown into that aspect, but it's just that so bizarre the way that they structure this trilogy. I feel as if by the end of it, by Revenge of the Sith, and as I said, I enjoyed Revenge of the Sith. I don't think it's the best Star Wars film, but it's definitely up
00:43:52
Speaker
they are for me personally but I feel as if they do a lot of catching up by the end of it because I mean the first film is like you know when you're doing an essay in university and you go oh I've got plenty of time I've got plenty of time and you kind of procrastinate and then Attack of the Clones comes out I've still got plenty of time you know what I'll write a wee bit I'll write the introduction to what I'm going to talk about and then Revenge of the Sith is like the night before writing the essay and you are
00:44:20
Speaker
furiously writing the essay. Oh, she's hostile to love. Something, something below there. It just feels as if this could have been padded out a lot more. Again, hindsight's a wonderful thing to say. Oh, they should have did this, they should have did that. But I'm actually quite curious, how would you structure these films? Is he to make them better without necessarily completely rewriting them? How would you structure it?
00:44:44
Speaker
I think that we are starting from the same place, the boy Anakin that we're meeting him. I think there should have been more there to kind of show his decline into the dark side and like provided more hints towards it. In the Phantom Menace, I get he's a child, you're kind of showing the kind of the innocence of him, but I feel like there could have been more sort of anger from him that you could see building into something more. It's really tricky.
00:45:07
Speaker
I'm not a film writer. I don't necessarily know the best way of getting from A to B with regards to that story that could have been different from the way that they did it. But there was huge issues with how Anakin was depicted in the first film, especially that he was some Mary Sue kind of character that this sort of 10 year old boy is now in a spaceship and is now destroying these separate cruisers on his own. There was so much that could have been dealt with better, even just like the dialogue, some of the romance scenes from Attack of the Clones that could have been better written
00:45:36
Speaker
and just kind of dealing with more of the battle against the separatists, rather than a lot of that sort of romance subplot. There was so much of it. The whole arc where Anakin and Padme go off to that fantasy planet
Anakin and Padme's Romance
00:45:49
Speaker
where they're like... Oh, you mean they'll do? Yeah, they're frolicking in the long grass and that kind of thing.
00:45:54
Speaker
Oh yeah, they have the fascism argument. Yeah, that whole art goes on way too long. It's not particularly interesting. The way they wrote Anakin going into the third film as well, just like his whininess around the fact that he got fast-tracked into the Jedi Council.
00:46:09
Speaker
The idea being he hasn't got the experience of maturity to be a Jedi Master yet, but they understand he's very qualified, very strong, and so they want him to kind of learn to mature through his interactions with the Council. At no point is that properly explained to him. He's a young guy. I mean, he doesn't quite get it. He is in a much more privileged position than anyone else would be. The lack of kind of communication between characters to kind of explain why situations are happening is very frustrating, and I think that could have been dealt with in a much better way.
00:46:37
Speaker
Focus on the battles between the separatists and the republic and have this politics in the background that you can kind of understand that there are things changing in the background that ultimately end with this other downfall of the republic and you can do that in a much more consistent way to how the original films were done. What are your thoughts? How do you think you would restructure these films?
00:46:58
Speaker
Well again I just want to steal your point because the Red Panda lawyer's like wagging his finger in the background but I'm of course not a film writer either so take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt dear listener but personally I don't know if I would maybe skip the entire Anakin being a child part of the story or even make that a brief part of the first film but
00:47:23
Speaker
I would definitely make sure that the Phantom Menace focused more on characterizing the Republic as a whole because I know technically they kind of do that by showing the Republic's inaction as it were but it's just that it's so glossed over and it's so quick so by the time you actually do get to it you're probably half asleep as it were.
00:47:46
Speaker
I would also make Darth Maul a bigger part in the franchise as a whole. I know that the Clone Wars series from 2008 onwards, I know that did a lot to almost rejuvenate interest in the prequels and almost show in hindsight that oh look,
00:48:05
Speaker
it wasn't as bad as you thought it was because it humanises the clones, it humanises the cost of the war and things. You know, you're not just looking at this as, oh right, it's the clones, the CGI men, oh they're fighting the CGI robots, and so on and so forth. Because you just, you feel nothing. And one of the things someone brought up in another review was the
00:48:29
Speaker
they should have replaced the clones with just regular people from the Republic. You know, you could still keep the clones and everything, you could still keep the clones and you could have them come in in the second half of the war or whatever, but for a series that is called Star Wars, they do show you the war but they don't really show you the impact of it.
00:48:50
Speaker
again I'm not expecting Saving Private Ryan but in space kind of thing but this is coming from George Lucas who wrote and created the first three films and he had so much to say with those films. As you mentioned before that the Rebels were more based on the Viet Cong and the Empire was alluded to that it was more amazing.
00:49:13
Speaker
America as the Empire, but at the same time the actual visual elements was based on the old World War II war films and things, so there was so much going on there in all the best ways. It was such a clever film beyond what was just being shown on the screen. But in this, they obviously say war is bad, but you never see an impact
00:49:36
Speaker
There's no environmental storytelling, it's like they go to Coruscant and Coruscant doesn't change throughout the entire three films. Even when the temple burns down, nothing changes. Life moves on. That's technically another commentary on state of affairs in some places of the world but
00:49:54
Speaker
at the same time there was no real domino effect as it were. You weren't seeing people suffering because of the war, you weren't seeing the effects of it and we would not get that until much later in the Clone Wars series and I just I feel as if it's such
00:50:10
Speaker
a missed opportunity. So going back to that, I would say definitely cut down the Phantom Menace, make it more of an adult or rather teenage Anakin and Obi-Wan. You can even have Gweig on there if you want to throw Liam Neeson in again. Make Darth Maul maybe an antagonist on the run that carries on throughout the three films because I feel as if they killed him off
00:50:33
Speaker
then they brought in Dooku in the second film, then they killed him off at the start of the third film just so they could have General Grievous, which again, one of the most assassinated characters I have ever seen in my life, because you know how you had him as this badass Jedi killer in the Clone Wars series in 2003, and then of course Lucas revealed his plans as a mustache twirl on the one that runs away. It really sucks, I'm sorry.
00:50:59
Speaker
There's a lot of mature themes going on, but I feel as if in his attempt to appeal to all audiences, he makes a lot of it a lot more childish.
Tonal Shifts and Pacing Issues
00:51:11
Speaker
You know that way, for every trade dispute and things, he's got the Gungans who are wagging their tongues in front of the audience, and for every assassination attempt on Padme and things, you've got R2 and
00:51:23
Speaker
to see the EPO messing around in the background, it doesn't really mesh very well and it's a shame. So those would kind of be my main things I would say. There is just such a tonal shift though in these films, isn't there? There is. There is a real tonal shift between the films. Particularly Phantom Menace is a completely different movie in its tone from the films that follow it. If they kind of kept
00:51:46
Speaker
more consistent tone and if they'd kind of matched that tone with the original trilogy then I think it would have been a much more impactful, much better series of films. Writing a movie is hard guys. Writing a movie that you know is going to be three movies so you have to kind of follow a narrative structure in that way is tough.
00:52:02
Speaker
I get that, but I just think that they dropped the ball on these films that could have been much more done with them. Even just little changes to how they structured these films that you could have structured in the same way, but just made some subtle changes to make it a more bearable film.
00:52:17
Speaker
very long for one thing. You could have gotten away almost with making these two films if you trimmed out a lot of the fat. Not that you want to do that because the trilogy is a lot neater, but that could have been there. I mean, hell, you could have made it like two films about that and then essentially done a Rogue One. That could have been the trilogy. That would have led well into what we then got for the original trilogy. They end up having to sort of explain a lot of the prequels and redeem a lot of the prequels through the subsequent Clone Wars TV series.
00:52:43
Speaker
which ends up being better than this prequel trilogy, because they had the hindsight of being like, these things didn't work, we need to do this. And like, when you watch that, and then watch the prequel trilogy, you go like, yeah, this is what it should have been. If you look at like the characterization of Anakin in the Clone Wars show, as opposed to the especially second and third prequel films,
00:53:04
Speaker
it's completely different. He's a bit more wise cracking, he seems a bit more mature and you can kind of see some elements of his ascent into the dark side from that whereas in these he just seems whiny. I mean I remember him being whiny in the films but sometimes it came out of absolutely nowhere.
00:53:20
Speaker
There was a time when they were having a very romantic dinner in Naboo, which in fact I think it was filmed near Lake Como in Italy. You can actually go there and visit, obviously not with Naboo speeders or anything, but you can go and visit it, it's pretty beautiful.
00:53:36
Speaker
Yeah, you know, they're having a very romantic dinner and then all of a sudden and maybe this is just to show he's a maturity but he just starts talking about Obi-Wan and how he won't let me do anything, oh he's a grumpy master and you know, see if you were going on a date with someone and then all of a sudden they just started talking about the father figure, you'd just be like, what? Honestly, what does Padme see in Anakin? I can fix him.
00:54:04
Speaker
Well, like, he's, I mean, I guess he's a cute guy. He's a bit of a pretty boy, but he seems pretty dense. Show us quite a few red flags. A few? What is endearing him to you? And like, it's not like, oh, he treats me so well. Does he though? He said you look like an angel when he was 10. Again, kind of dodgy situation. But I mean, I think it ends up being like four years between them, but still. And he called you like an angel when he was 10. Otherwise, kind of feels like he has gas lights a lot of the time.
00:54:31
Speaker
It's not a positive relationship, I'm not gonna lie. It seems problematic but I think what the main issue with that is is the fact that this is the poster relationship. I could be remembering this wrong but I'm sure for the official poster for the second film it's like them embracing in the background or maybe that's for the third film I can't remember but you know it's supposed to be the iconic
00:54:57
Speaker
relationship. It's supposed to be this young man who has been enslaved for his childhood. He's not had a childhood but he tries to stay positive, he gets taken out of that life, he gets the chance of a lifetime to train as a Jedi, he sees the corruption of the Jedi around him in this political system that is
00:55:17
Speaker
clearly failing the people. I thought that was really interesting with his character and things. There is obviously that split between what Padme thinks versus what he thinks, but at the end of the day you have to remember this is the father of one of the greatest characters in the franchise. You know, it's the father of Luke Skywalker and it's this hero of the Republic.
00:55:38
Speaker
You know that way when it's like, oh, I can't wait to see these old videos of my hero and then you look it up on YouTube and you just see Anakin like whining about how Obi-Wan's... You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of the room where it's like Tommy Wiseau comes in and he's like, everyone betray me, I'm fed up of this world. Anakin, don't say that!
00:55:59
Speaker
I mean he is a good actor but just in this I don't know what they were saying to him and I think that's more of a direction issue because all these actors are really good actors. You know you've got Samuel Jackson, you've got Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor, you've got Ian McDermott as Palpatine which I have to say he's one of the saving graces of it. Just jumping off of that
00:56:19
Speaker
That is one of the things actually that I think is worth discussing and praising is the villains are actually the main villains of the films are actually quite good. I enjoyed Darth Maul. I enjoyed Dooku. I enjoyed Palpatine and to an extent Grievous. I know we kind of mentioned some issues we had with Grievous, but I think the villains are actually a huge positive of these films, but they don't deal with them well in terms of the things surrounding them, like the general kind of story leading up to those villains. It just isn't good.
00:56:48
Speaker
general story of course. Again there are fascinating characters and again this is something that people have brought up in the past that oh if you read the books or the novelizations or the extended lore, I mean especially about
Potential of Prequel Villains
00:57:03
Speaker
Dooku. Dooku is such a fascinating character who is like almost this nobleman who is part the jedi order and then he gets seduced by the dark side and he just completely falls off into this
00:57:15
Speaker
spiral of absolute horrificness. But at the same time, and this is something I have a problem with, with not just these films but a lot of media as a whole that if you're trying to tell an isolated story contained within these three films, then you should not by any means have to read
00:57:34
Speaker
anything beyond that. Extra content and extra stories should be supplemental. It should be something that adds onto the appreciation of the world. It should not be required reading as it were. And you know, don't get me wrong, I know there's a lot of Wikipedia fans that gasped all at once for
00:57:53
Speaker
there, but you should genuinely not have to read all of this just to understand why Dooku is the way he is. Again, I think the actors are fantastic. Christopher Lee needs no introduction there, he is amazing in this role, but at the same time it just feels as if the writing and I know Walter's way take your
00:58:14
Speaker
it feels as if the writing severely hinders them to reaching their full potential in the film. Because I mean, look at the trilogy as a whole, and this is something I was thinking about when we're talking about the tone of these films. The fact that the first film seems more of a
00:58:29
Speaker
fantasy adventure or rather sci-fi fantasy adventure. Then the second one, I don't know if you watched the behind the scenes for this but I remember watching it for the Attack of the Clones stuff and they were bigging it up as like, oh it's this
00:58:45
Speaker
mystery thriller movie that Obi-Wan's going from planet to planet, he's trying to find out who did this, who did that. And that takes you when I was watching it. And I went, well, they kind of spoiled it at the beginning because they basically admitted it was Dooku. They started talking about some rando called Master Sifo Deus and everything, and oh, Django Fights, a bounty hunter, and you're like, does any of this really matter?
00:59:08
Speaker
We all know it's Dooku. And then there's like a weird scene where he's trying to feign ignorance. Do you remember that scene where Dooku's just like, oh, it's a terrible mistake and everything and you're like, we know you're the villain. We've seen you on the posters. What the hell? Yeah. How they dealt with Dooku was very strange. And I think if they'd introduced him in the first one, it had him be a good Jedi. And then the second one, you kind of learn that he's the bad Jedi. He's actually Sith.
00:59:32
Speaker
then I think that it would have been more impactful in how he was dealt with and that they were kind of teasing that Django is behind this and that he's working with the Sith and that kind of thing and then just being essentially a hired goon for Dooku. Here's a question for you though and it's kind of something we've been hinting at throughout this retrospective but do you think
00:59:52
Speaker
that this supplemental material beyond the memes and things that have obviously come out as of the last five to ten years with this set of films, do you think the supplemental material for things like the video games, the comics, the books and things and other shows that came out at the same time, do you think these can be credited to the lifespan of the pre-code trilogy?
Expanded Media's Role in Prequels
01:00:15
Speaker
Because I was just thinking back to what you were saying about the problems with
01:00:19
Speaker
Attack of the Clones and I genuinely think, see out of all the rear of them, I think Attack of the Clones had the most games that came out at that time. You had the Clone Wars game, you had the Battlefront games, you had Star Wars Bounty Hunter and things, you had Jedi Starfighter, you had Rogue Squadron which
01:00:40
Speaker
you know that technically relates to the original trilogy but you know you had all these games coming out at this time to almost boost the reputation and fill in the gaps of the oh Republic Commando as well I would have got lynched with a lightsaber if I didn't mention Republic Commando but would you say they were quite important in prolonging the popularity as it were of these prequels?
01:01:04
Speaker
I think to an extent, I don't necessarily know that it was a prolonging the popularity as opposed to maybe redeeming the canon of the prequel trilogies, the supplemental materials such as the games, which to be honest, I've not played as much of. I'm not as invested in video games in general in the Star Wars video games as you are. Yes, I'm on their apologies.
01:01:24
Speaker
But the likes of Clone Wars shows, the non-canon 2003 version and the canon Clone Wars show, which came out years later, as well as other films and TV shows all set around that time, has kind of allowed that time period. Because I mean, anything pre the original trilogy was kind of thought like, Oh, God, that stuff is just nonsense. I don't want to think about the Republic or anything like that. It's a
01:01:47
Speaker
allowed that kind of timeline prior to the original films to still be considered worthwhile kind of exploring and like Knights of the Old Republic, which correct me if I'm wrong, but predates the prequels. We are still invested in those storylines. See, this is the interesting thing, especially in regards to the Clone Wars era, because with a lot of games that are coming out, games like
01:02:11
Speaker
jedi survivor and even the battlefront games where it focuses heavily on the iconography of this era.
Prequels' Influence on Modern Media
01:02:20
Speaker
I mean even look at the bad batch that takes place in the aftermath of the clone wars and the treatment of the clones as well which I
01:02:27
Speaker
Again, it's a great show but then even when you look at things like I suppose Andor, Kenobi, all of these shows and things are trying to reference the prequels. Ironically enough it almost feels as if it's now cool again to like the prequels if that makes
01:02:44
Speaker
purely because all of these shows are revisiting this time. Even in shows like Star Wars Rebels, which as set in the Empire era still heavily references the Clone Wars because of the amount of Jedi characters you get nowadays that they almost sound like an OC.
01:03:03
Speaker
I was a pero-lan in the Clone Wars but my master got killed so I'm a whatever Jedi even in the New Ahsoka series they heavily borrow from the prequels. So as a kind of closing point it is interesting to see that even though as we spoke about this trilogy is definitely not the best of the three of them and I think
01:03:24
Speaker
you'll probably figure out what our favourite one is next week but at the same time it's interesting to see that despite the fact that this series of films is so infamous in its execution and the way that it came out with its initial impressions versus even today, people complaining about it at the end of the day, it is interesting to see that people are still going back to it and they're almost treating it with a sense of
01:03:54
Speaker
evidence. Again that's something that we'll get on to when we talk about the sequel trilogy in a couple of weeks time but yeah it's just it's interesting to see that even though these films have had quite a rocky reputation as a whole even by today's standards it's still very iconic but what about yourself? What are your final thoughts?
01:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, my final thoughts, I mean, much of what I've said already in this episode, but just that there are aspects of this. And we didn't even touch upon things like the music and how wonderful some of the scores from John Williams were. Some of the level of fight choreography was very interesting, that a lot of the special effects, whilst somewhat overdone, were interesting. But just the narrative that was created just leaves a sour taste in your mouth. And you can't necessarily hold the original trilogy on this pedestal, and there's
Rewatching Prequels and Legacy
01:04:45
Speaker
no negatives. But
01:04:46
Speaker
It is a much more complete series of films and a much better written series of films than what we got from the prequels. And so I rewatched this for the first time in a long time and it made me realize rewatching it just how unenjoyable a lot of the aspects of these films were and that made it quite a slog to get through. We rewatched the original Lord of the Rings trilogy and then the Hobbit trilogy for Lord of the Rings month.
01:05:13
Speaker
And I knew that I didn't particularly like the Hobbit trilogy, but I found that significantly easier to get through than I did these three movies. It's very interesting because, as I said earlier, I liked these growing up. I thought these were cool and I did rewatch these regularly and it was tough. It was tough going. I've not seen the original films in quite a while, but I'm hoping that I don't find that I've lost interest in the series as a whole and that I find those less interesting too. But you'll have to wait another week to find out our thoughts on that.
01:05:41
Speaker
Oh no, absolutely, you are not going to want to miss next week's episode. Yeah, no, I just want to go back to what you were saying there about the positives of this trilogy, as it were. As you said, the John Williams score is absolutely amazing. As you said, you have Jewels of Fate, you have a Battle of Heroes, Love Across the Stars, I think is the other one. You know, just all of these iconic tracks that you can't really
01:06:07
Speaker
think of Star Wars without maybe thinking of them, other than the obvious theme song that comes on. But there is a lot to like about the prequel trilogy but I feel as if the positives are unfortunately outweighed by the negatives in that regard.
Comparing Prequels with Other Trilogies
01:06:24
Speaker
I have to
01:06:24
Speaker
to say and that is an interesting point you brought up about the prequels versus the Hobbit trilogy because it is something we discussed in our Lord of the Rings month and again if you want to listen to our thoughts on that please feel free to listen to our Hobbit month especially for the Hobbit trilogy episodes where we talk about it in more detail but I
01:06:42
Speaker
I know exactly what you mean because I watched it with my partner. I watched all three films and I have to say I enjoyed them a lot more than I remember when I watched them in The Sundaman. Don't get me wrong, I still don't think they're as good as the original trilogy but even still, I still thought the Hobbit trilogy was fairly okay but I think in the flip side, it's
01:07:06
Speaker
probably because the at least technically it is a wee bit now but back then there wasn't as much saturation of Lord of the Rings content. You know it's like it wasn't getting pumped out constantly, it wasn't constantly in your face when you load up
01:07:23
Speaker
streaming services but when I say streaming services I mean Disney Plus in this case but I mean when we were growing up you know as you said we had this bubble of naivety of saying oh I love this film because I like the action scenes which again I totally agree the fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan versus Darth Maul that was great the battle and the coliseum that had its moments even the
01:07:49
Speaker
the battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin despite the really weird saber spin, but I don't quite get what that was all about in the choreography department when they said, okay, you're gonna spin your lightsaber really, really fast and then slam them into one another. I was like,
01:08:04
Speaker
I don't get that but at the end of the day there is a lot of good in this film but I feel as if nowadays where we are with the franchise, I mean since the 90s for goodness sake we have had spin-off series, we have had long-running TV shows with hour-long episodes that two of those episodes rival the same length as the films and you've had all the spin-off films, you've had Solo and Rogue One and things so I think
01:08:29
Speaker
maybe again that probably impacts the way we see it as going back to the series and rewatching it and knowing all this extra lore that they put in but it'll be interesting to revisit the original trilogy and see whether or not they still hold up, whether or not they are as good nowadays compared to what we thought back
01:08:51
Speaker
then when they first saw them in the 90s and early 2000s.
Final Reflections on Prequels
01:08:55
Speaker
And don't get me wrong, for legal reasons they are still good films, but it'll be interesting to see how we feel about it going back to it. But that is indeed a story for another week. So Andrew, thank you so so much for joining me on this very first episode of Star Wars Month.
01:09:11
Speaker
No, thank you so much for having me. I'm not going to say it was enjoyable going through this piece, but it's always a blast to hop on and chat with you even if it's a rant. Yeah, I have to say we are going to have to buy really large bouquets of flowers to make it up to our partners because getting them to sit through all three of the films from the pre-co-trology isn't a great thing. I'm not going to lie, it's not a great Saturday night for
01:09:34
Speaker
I just hope that my partner enjoys the subsequent films a little bit more. But yeah, before we wrap up, where can these lovely lovely listeners at home find more of your content, Andrew? Yeah, for sure. If you want to hear more of my takes on anything within the Chatsunami sphere, you can find me on many other Chatsunami episodes, where all the podcasts are found, where you found this one.
01:09:56
Speaker
But you can also find both myself and Satsunami on our D&D podcast, Stop, Drop and Roll Initiative. Again, where all good podcasts are found, we've uploaded will be three episodes by the time this comes out, I hope at least. So you can follow that there where podcasts can be found. You can see any updates on Twitter at SDRI Pod and you can probably email us. You just listen to the podcast first. Listen first, email later. Yeah.
01:10:39
Speaker
Thank you so, so much for supporting the show. And if you want exclusive content from ourselves such as bloopers, early access and even some commentary tracks and gameplay videos, you can indeed catch us over on Patreon at patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. But until next time, as always, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, execute order 66. Do it.
01:10:47
Speaker
I'll tell you those details once you've listened.