Transcript
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Book Watch. Today we are continuing our discussion of The Hunger Games, The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes by Suzanne Collins.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: By comparing. part three of the book. which covers Snow's time in District 12 with Part 3 of the 2023 adaptation directed by Frances Lawrence.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I'm Sarah Daye
Chris: And I'm Chris.
Jordyn: And I'm Jordan.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And we will get started after these messages.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And before we start, I want to welcome J. Scottie St. Clair back to the podcast once again.
Scotty: thank you thank you as something of an amateur magician myself i need no introduction
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Uh, well with that, let's get. Started with introducing our new set of characters in. District 12. We have the cubby. which is Maud Ivory.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Barb as your... Tam Amber. Clerk Carmine, played by Vaughn Riley. Honor Gillies. Ike and a... Anyambu.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and Constantine Taffet. Mayfair, which is the mayor's daughter, is played by Isabel Jesper Jones. Billy Tope is played by Dakota Shapiro.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I included the bunkmates, Beanpole and Smiley, even though we barely get to see them in the film and they are played by Scott Follin and Carl Spencer and they maybe have one line And then Commander Hoff is played by Vern Gorman.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Did any of these... portrayals stand out to you guys in any way.
Chris: No.
Jordyn: Burn Gorman looks like he should be a peacekeeper commander.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Scotty: That's exactly where my mind went to I remembered when we did Mockingjay part one there was the peacekeeper like the more uh, the hard -ass peacekeeper that came in to like lay down the law and i was like that's pitch perfect casting
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: Catching fire.
Scotty: I was like catching fire. You're right.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: Catching fire.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: Excuse me. Much. Yeah, I agree.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: Burn. Gorman is cut from the same cloth. He just looks the part so much.
Jordyn: Yes. It's like, you know what? Yeah. I believe that
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Anything else before we get into the plot?
Jordyn: No, I mean...
Scotty: Uh...
Chris: Let's do this. Go ahead.
Jordyn: We kind of mentioned it that these. Like... this part is rushed and so like like you said with the bunk meets especially like most of these characters you're like you do get some time to get to know and like kind of differentiate their personalities like it gets cut so much that they just like they barely even register like maybe mayfair because of what that means for coriolanus and his you know
Jordyn: continuing arc into madness and justifying murder. and so like that actress did a great job of making me not like her But other than that, everybody else was like.
Jordyn: forgettable, respectfully.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Jordyn: not even their fault, just because of how little time they had on screen.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Well, and you mentioned
Chris: Well, without Maplin's sweets to bring everybody together, what's the point, you know?
Scotty: For sure.
Chris: If you're not eating Ma's... rice balls or whatever it was that she had made the book
Jordyn: Right.
Chris: They have nothing to bond over.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hmm.
Jordyn: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: we're and we're talking about the bunk mates right now but also the covey themselves we don't get to see them at all there's a whole relationship between mont ivory and sejanus that is cut and like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: when he first meets Billy is at the Covey's house. That's what I was talking about in our last episode about that whole relationship and that whole storyline of Ser Janus. joining the rebels in a sense. is so condensed in this part that I really would have loved to see this be its own movie.
Scotty: And maybe that would have been the way to go. Like I was on the previous episode, I was kind of singing the praises how I kind of admired the restraint. to not split it into two movies, but...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Scotty: you know i i could see a scenario where they do split it into two movies and and you know, this. Part three. being so rich and kind of being removed enough that it could operate on its own i would be curious to see what that would look like I think it would just... almost tonally be so different from everything else in the franchise that could be a benefit to it ultimately it could make it you know feel really fresh but even as i was watching the movie that was just something that
Scotty: I guess I didn't mind. Obviously, what everybody's saying about it being rushed, you do miss out on some really important characters and character interactions. But I found myself not.
Scotty: minding it all that much because i just like Kind of like what I said previously, even from like a visual standpoint, everything looks just so different. This is like. the most time we've really ever got to spend.
Scotty: Uh, in a district and yeah it's not you know We don't really get to know the district super, super intimately. intimately like that but it just kind of felt like a different movie through and through to me whereas like the first two parts are very clearly like dystopia young adults.
Scotty: Uh... of the silk, not to take anything away from it, but it's almost become a genre unto itself at that point in time. Whereas this third part really did feel like the.
Scotty: romance. It almost kind of reminded me of like a Nicholas Sparks. thing a little bit just in terms of like the military guy falling for the girl i mean obviously no one's as altruistic as uh as in those books but yeah that's just kind of where i'm landing so
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Sure, yeah
Scotty: I wonder what that would have looked like if they did split it into two parts or really. Just made this move even longer, like went the full three hours and let this thing breathe a little bit more.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I do agree that it made sense that it was just one film. Whereas like Mockingjay is the. climax of a trilogy and then get splitting that in half and But I think this.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: does reflect mocking jay in a lot whereas the first part is a completely different story than the second part. And in Ballad's case, it's parts one and two.
Scotty: Yeah. That's fair.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Whereas in Mockingjay, the second part is them all in the Capitol and the infiltration of that. And then this second part being him in District 12.
Scotty: Sure.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: But it. Again, I do think two movies would have worked because. They are so different. like with part one just being the games and then Part two being.
Scotty: Yeah sure.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: this time in the capital or i'm sorry this time in district 12 and really getting to know district 12 because we are familiar with it. from Katniss's POV and her story.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And getting to.
Scotty: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: you know fall in love with District 12.
Chris: and how little really changes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: before it gets destroyed in catching fire you know what i mean
Scotty: Right.
Jordyn: Yeah. I think splitting is it.
Chris: Beyond the Wall was there. There's a lot of things there. And I think we just need to get more comfortable with six -hour movies. I don't like part twos. I just want to see it all at once.
Jordyn: Yeah. I think like splitting this movie into two would have been a nice mirror to Mockingjay because that one we talked about, they make the joke of like, welcome to the 76th Hunger Games.
Jordyn: So I think having it be like. life in the district. And then pseudo games and then having pseudo games transitioning to life back in the district.
Chris: Reversing it, basically.
Jordyn: Like, I think that would have been a nice like.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Jordyn: opposites kind of like mirror of each other yeah to you know show
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Like a mirror.
Jordyn: how much things can still be similar even though they're separated by 60 years. And again, just repeating repeating repeating but like more time spent with these characters and like spreading out things and letting the you know pseudo -romance.
Jordyn: take its time and letting the develop. the relationship between Coriolanus and Seginus. they get to the point where they're calling you you're my brother like i love you like i'd do anything for you But I'm also going to set you up and betray you and expose you as a rebel. And so you're going to be hung like I killed you, basically, you know, and like.
Jordyn: that just all. needed more time to develop and make sense.
Chris: Your 1984 comparison last episode was really... poignant with the uh the jabber jays for sure it's like oh yeah big brother is watching
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: Big brain.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So.
Scotty: BB.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: We... Start. this third part of the story. with Snow choosing to go to District 12. He's been... caught cheating in the hunger games and is sentenced to being a case keeper for 20 years But he does ask.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: to go to 12.
Chris: And bribe.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Oh did he bribe in the book?
Chris: He says he in both he I don't know about the book but at least in the movie he had the money
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I know the movie. Well, yeah, he gave her the money in the.
Chris: But I think he said he gave. All he had left basically to make it to 12. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay. I...
Jordyn: He no, that's a lie that he tells her
Jordyn: That's a lie that he tells Lucy Gray to make her.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay, thank you. Because I thought that he was just able to ask to go to 12 and she was like, oh, nobody asked to go to 12.
Jordyn: No. Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And then in the movie, I saw him give her the money and that threw me off.
Jordyn: Yes.
Chris: He does give her money and says it there, but yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: Dean Highbottom says you. Either we're going to expose you and ruin your social standing and you're going to become an outcast in the Capitol or you can go and be a peacekeeper. So he runs to the peacekeeper's office.
Jordyn: he requests to go to 12 the officer there's shocked because nobody has to go to 12 he goes and then in the movie he gives the line to lucy gray like i gave my last penny to follow you because i love you so much which is total crap he was forced to come out here to say preserve the name of his family so that again like that manipulation and like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: getting her you know to trust him and you know it's a snake weaving around its winding around its prey before he crushes her.
Chris: But I thought the bribe made sense, too, in the movie that they used that as, you know, there's corrupt officials in every part of this government, it feels like.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Hmm.
Jordyn: Well, that was what...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: That's fair.
Jordyn: So Janice got there was he was going to be. same kind of deal. He's going to be exposed as a traitor or a rebel sympathizer. And his daddy went and paid them off and let him go be a peacekeeper instead.
Jordyn: And he I don't remember, though, if he was assigned to 12 or if he also requested 12, because he thought. Coriolanus would go there.
Chris: I wanted to go where he was. Yeah.
Jordyn: I don't recall that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I think he definitely requested. 12 because
Scotty: That was the impression I got too.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, to be with choreo.
Scotty: What's also not lost on me is like the big difference between the book and the movie is the approach in which you know this information the sequence of events is doled out to the the viewer or the reader in the book it like part two ends in such an like an effective way he's just won the games and it's like his prize is that he gets to be a peacemaker and it's like and as the reader you're like what
Scotty: That's that's the prize and then you pick up on the train like he as he's on the train going to 12 He he fills the reader in like oh, this is how it all went down where in the movie. It's a lot more straightforward It's like, hey, you won.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Chris: You're probably wondering how I got here.
Scotty: Yeah, exactly.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: No.
Scotty: Absolutely. Exactly.
Jordyn: Well, and we didn't talk about this change in the first part but the fact that the plinth prize was a pre -existing prize and not something that
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm.
Jordyn: uh Strava Plinth created to like instead help incentivize the mentors later like
Chris: created for this.
Jordyn: Not that big of a difference, but like. an interesting one like that I feel like because they cut so much of the build -up to the games with the mentors and the tributes, they had to... still include that some somewhere to show like why snow cares so much about winning
Scotty: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Scotty: we talked about it a little bit i think maybe when you had uh left for a second for one reason or another and i i do agree with you like uh strabo plinth like he they Talk so much about it in the book and you get a few. instances of it in the movie there but he's basically trying to buy favor buy his his position there in the capitol because they started off in the district but the other thing that i think the
Scotty: The big difference between the plinth award in the the book in the movie is in the movie or excuse me, in the book. since it's only a byproduct of sejanus's actions it's like it's another case of him like doing cleanup for Sir Janice.
Jordyn: Mm hmm.
Scotty: And I think that really... alludes to the fact like we can you know argue it A little bit, maybe not so much. Not to give Corey Alanis any saving grace or anything like that, but I do think.
Scotty: When he betrays so Janice when he sets him up and he even says as much I know he says it in the movie I can't remember if he says in the book, but he's like Your dad's just going to, you know. buy your way out again you're gonna get a slap on the wrist whereas someone like me i'll get hung
Scotty: unceremoniously so i do think he's actually surprised When.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: push comes to shove and and so janice you know faces his fate
Jordyn: Yeah, I believe that I think he didn't consider the fact that There's been so many of these instances of Sejanus. being a rebel sympathizer and like going out of his way to like you know, shame the Capitol publicly going into the arena and, you know, his outbursts, you know, during the games. at some point.
Jordyn: you know there's a line and if you cross that line that's it you know and so actively buying guns for rebels and plotting to run away and like defy the Capitol in that way.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: Like that was. That was the line that was crossed for the capital where no amount of money, no gymnasium at the academy, no scholarship for another student. there's no coming back from that.
Jordyn: And I don't think snow.
Chris: And he was a district kid stuck in the Capitol, basically.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: One thing.
Jordyn: Like. anticipated.
Jordyn: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: was you know against the districts he grew up in the districts so
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: It really makes you feel that. Man, this kid really got the protection of the Capitol and his dad's money, but never got to really... be accepted by the culture so he still has that Tie.
Jordyn: Yeah, well, and the book does a better job of explaining the relationship between him and his tribute, Marcus, that they were in school together.
Jordyn: There's a photo of them in the same class.
Chris: classmates together, which is crazy.
Scotty: Right.
Scotty: Right.
Jordyn: nose. the person he is sending to their death like intimately. they're the same you know And. That I think it's lost in the movie as well.
Chris: and his dad set it up so that he would have him too as his tribute and so it was kind of trying to force him to become capital.
Jordyn: Yes, to try to teach him a lesson.
Chris: Yeah.
Jordyn: Absolutely.
Scotty: And I... I think as young adult stories, there's always a certain coming -of -age element to these stories. With Katniss, it's like, how can you deny it? You're being forced into an arena where you have to kill other people. You're growing up.
Scotty: immediately right now and unfairly prematurely.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm
Scotty: I think what makes. this story a little bit different is like because we're focused on a character like cory alanis where yeah it does cause him to question things and he starts to you know make decisions and and form beliefs that are going to
Chris: Change, bro, yeah.
Scotty: changed the trajectory of his entire life it's moments like these where it's like he was still a student even though he was dealing with all this it was a school project for him and he understood the stakes and the import of it and his life was on the line at certain points in time but He wasn't forced to grow up the same way that someone like Lucy Gray, who was in the arena, was, even though he did spend time in the arena. I just kind of in like retrospect, I think it's like.
Scotty: you know you're in high school you do your senior year you're an 18 year old but then when you're in college and you have that first like infraction It's like where you're no longer a minor. It's like, oh. Mommy and daddy can't save you this time. You got to handle this one on yourself. Handle this yourself. you know hopefully it doesn't have to be to this degree.
Jordyn: Done.
Jordyn: Well, he has that thought.
Scotty: In this instance,
Jordyn: too when he's talking about sejanus and i think it's after he kills uh mayfair he's like i'm not in school anymore like
Scotty: It was. Yeah.
Scotty: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Jordyn: You know, this is the end of the line for me is already like being a piece. I've been kicked out of school. I am a peacekeeper.
Scotty: Yeah. There you go.
Scotty: That's it.
Jordyn: He does think that through, that I am an adult now.
Scotty: Right.
Jordyn: I'm not in school. I don't have the protection of the childhood innocence or whatever. Not that any of the kids in these books ever have that because of the harsh world that they grow up, even if you don't go into the Hunger Games.
Scotty: Right. Right.
Jordyn: you're not unless you're in the capital in like the time of Katniss's books you're not living the high life like you still are struggling and like borderline starving so there's always like some trauma in your childhood even if you don't actually have to go into the games so he's still like he still like recognizes the fact that like oh i'm an adult this is real real stuff now.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: There was one thing that I just realized, a change from the movie to the book, as you were talking about his portrayal of Ser Janus. When he's recording.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Sejanus. admitting to the plan. with the Jabberjay. He makes sure not to speak. on that recording.
Scotty: Oh right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And he sends it to Gaul. In the movie, he does speak and she comments that she received his little gift or something like that. So when we talk about them not being any more loose ends, there is a loose end in the movie and that's Gull.
Jordyn: Mhm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: She knows that he.
Chris: Which puts him under her power again.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: helped get Sunday. Mhm. But they don't look at it that way in the movie. They don't really acknowledge it at all. Just that she... is hiding the recording she mentions it when he's back in the capital i think But that is still a loose end that. the book does not have.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: that the movie does have.
Jordyn: Well, I wouldn't be surprised if there was another. prequel book that even remotely touched on snow i wouldn't be surprised to find out that he killed her at some point too
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, for sure.
Scotty: Oh, he Totally.
Chris: I was thinking that as well, yeah.
Scotty: Darth Sidious to her Darth Plagueis. Yeah.
Jordyn: For sure.
Scotty: For the Star Wars fans out there.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: It's me. I'm the Star Wars fans out here.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I think we all are a little bit.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: Oh yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So, yes, Snow, he betrays Janice. he finds out that He has this whole rebel plot. working with Billy Taupe.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and sends that recording to Dr. Gall, which... ultimately leads to segenis's execution which later on. choreo thinks of as his third.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Murder. Whereas he didn't really.
Scotty: Hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Due the killing of Sajanis, he contributed to him getting caught. which is a big plot point.
Jordyn: I like...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: later with Lucy Gray.
Jordyn: That's what I was going to say. I like how the movie visually... shows that that's the thing that gives him away.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: that like she can't trust him anymore because in the book and maybe it's just because i'm the way I was reading it, it felt. very fast because he's like getting more manic and more paranoid and so like his thoughts are going a mile a minute i'm reading it a mile a minute but like the fact that in the movie they take that moment he says you know i killed three people that's enough and she's like Oh, shoot, like...
Chris: Who's the third?
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: who's the third and she puts it together you know, that it The only person that Sajan has trusted was Corio. And she...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: does that detective work like oh my god like if he's willing to kill sejanus who i thought was his best friend his brother he is totally willing to kill me and she actually makes the point to him in the movie too that she's a loose end and so like i like i like that change actually that she you know put it together and she realized the danger she was in and like how it made it more obvious to me as a.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Scotty: Yeah, right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, I was going to say, because I...
Jordyn: reader viewer.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: You do. Assume. Well, I think the book is actually very ambiguous from that moment on to the end where We don't even know if he killed her or not.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Like, we don't know where she's gone. The footprints disappeared.
Chris: Which mirrors the song, actually.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Exactly.
Jordyn: Yes.
Chris: Yeah. That was the point, yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, exactly.
Jordyn: Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: but you still don't know like yes in the movie the camera pans on her she's putting it together you assume in the book she's putting it together but it's still from his pov and like you said this is his descent into madness he's like changing right now
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So you don't know Well, she goes out to pick the potatoes and then disappears. And then the whole snake, you don't know if that was real or not.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Because it wasn't a poisonous snake. So, you know. Did she just lose the scarf?
Chris: Which is more coincidence, probably.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Happened to fall on a snake? What do you guys think?
Jordyn: The movie makes it seem more like she purposely laid that trap for him and maybe she just like... Miss... identified what type of snake it was. because we know like it's the Groundwork is laid throughout both the book and the movie that she has an attachment to snakes and she always can find them. When she sings, they listen to her. They don't attack her.
Jordyn: but
Chris: Which is what he's supposed to be in her story, too. The snake that she charms.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Scotty: yeah absolutely
Jordyn: Right. So I think. the movie tries to lead us more towards the fact that she intentionally is like leading him astray so that she can escape.
Jordyn: But I don't know. I kind of like the feeling reading it. It felt kind of like. when Katniss is stung by the trackerjackers and you're not really sure what's real and what's not real.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: And so I like. I like the ambiguity and I genuinely don't. No, like I could be convinced either way that. she purposely laid a trap and he killed her or that it was an accidental snake bite and she escaped like i you know if i'm presented with evidence i'll believe you know anything in this topic like i i I could be convinced.
Scotty: I think you're right that it's open to interpretation. I do think the movie does a much... Stronger. job of like pointing it in in one direction in terms of yes she laid this trap because even with like the mother's scarf i can't remember if it's in the book but in the in the movie she definitely says like I'll take care of this.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Scotty: And the fact that it's like left carelessly on the ground is like going to catch his attention. again I think the book is a little more open to interpretation I do kind of like that that it's like a compounding factor of his mania spurred on by his guilt and everything else that's going on that, you know. effectively causes him to just freak out.
Scotty: overreact and hallucinate maybe potentially but it is the fact that in both the the movie and the book they're very pointed about the fact that like lucy graybeard disappeared. after that nobody knows what happened to her so That just feels super intentional.
Scotty: to me that she had you know some exit strategy in place and knew how to to tuck away and never be found.
Jordyn: Hmm.
Chris: Can you imagine if we had gotten a moment in Mockingjay where we met someone named Lucy Gray in 13 or something that was just this old lady that lived there?
Jordyn: That would be wild.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Scotty: Greasy sigh.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Well, that's kind of like a prevailing fan theory is that she found district 13 and like there were like the beginnings of what we'll know district 13 to be later on
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: Oh cool.
Chris: What if she had been the... the... Uh, leader the what's her name the
Scotty: Cone.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: There's a...
Jordyn: President Coyne.
Chris: President of 13.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: There's a...
Scotty: Coin. I always want to say Cohen, but it's coin.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, there's a fan theory that she's like Queen's parent or something.
Chris: Coin, yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I don't.
Scotty: Mmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: particularly love that. theory as much, but I do think she found her way to 13.
Chris: I love a good what if story, so, you know.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: and then there is the i looked it up and she is supposed to be uh katniss is supposed to be her descendant not directly from her but from one of the other siblings or covey and so it's kind of interesting watching the way the covey developed from where she was to the songs passing down and the you know
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The Covey. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Whoa.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: That's exactly...
Chris: The way I should get that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: how Katniss knows the Hanging Tree song.
Jordyn: Her dad teaches her.
Chris: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yep. mm -hmm So her dad was Cubby. I don't think Katniss is actually Cubby. I think that term kind of. dies out, but.
Chris: Goes away and becomes district, but...
Scotty: I think so, yeah
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right, but I do believe her dad is... covey and that might be maybe that's in sunrise on the reaping that they say that
Jordyn: Descended.
Chris: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: but Yeah, it is.
Chris: they do talk about how this hunger game is all footage of it was deleted after this and uh so
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It's neat.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Scotty: Right scrub from the record
Sarah-Daye McDougall: that's from the original trilogy.
Jordyn: Mm hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: They don't have.
Chris: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right?
Jordyn: Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Don't they say they don't have the 10th games?
Jordyn: Yes.
Chris: Right, and they do talk about it in this one that...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Chris: doll deleted the whole all the footage of it
Sarah-Daye McDougall: All the footage. Yeah.
Jordyn: Except for her master copy in the vault.
Chris: Except her master copy, which probably comes back in the next. the next prequel or something.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Maybe.
Scotty: Oh, that'll be an anthology series, Gaul's Vault.
Chris: Yeah. We'll get that when we get the new TV series of all these, you know, the...
Jordyn: That's crazy.
Chris: when they go through all 75 of them.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: In 10 years.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah, when they reboot in the TV series.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: When they're done with Harry Potter.
Jordyn: Uh. Huh.
Jordyn: backtracking a little bit just another thing that ends up in a game a future games that comes from now is Coriolanus is super triggered. by the mocking jays and them repeating stuff and talking like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: mm -hmm
Chris: That whole subplot was sadly missing in the... in the movie, the subplot of them tracking them down.
Jordyn: Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right, Dr. K.
Chris: Joshua K.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yep.
Chris: I was really sad not to see that.
Jordyn: but I... Like how he... Well, I don't like it, but it's interesting how he took something that is personally like triggering for him is having to hear the cries of people as they die over and over again.
Jordyn: and he turns that into one of the clock pieces in the 75th games where Katniss and Finnick get tortured.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And you know what's interesting?
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Is he? It's fake in Katniss's games.
Jordyn: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It's not really them. Whereas with him. It is. the last words of the people before they got hung so it's like it was triggering for him and he's like this is traumatic we should use it but
Jordyn: Yes. mm -hmm
Jordyn: Mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: They still don't use actual.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: people. dying. They're not torturing. her sister and Gail. but they just use their voices so he still doesn't go all the way with it which is I wonder if that's something that... the game makers decided or like.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: i mean torturing people is still bad even though they have the hugger games
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: but
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: There.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It's a fun... prequel to revisit after Having just reread the trilogy.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And seeing all those ties.
Scotty: There are a lot of like. nice lines that are very much like winks and nods for...
Scotty: readers of the long long readers of the franchise like one that comes to mind i think it was grandmam i think it might have been in reaction to arachne's death or or something but she was like that that's the kind of story that catches fire
Sarah-Daye McDougall: mm -hmm
Scotty: I was like, ooh, I see what you're doing there.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Chris: Little words there, yeah.
Scotty: And there's just a few of them like that that are, like, really, really good.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Chris: The Katniss being the little potato she was picking, that they were picking.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The plant.
Chris: It was like, oh.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yep.
Scotty: Yeah. Katniss of...
Chris: It's better known as Katniss.
Scotty: Famously also known as a swamp potato.
Chris: Swamp potato.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: that is the kind of thing like all the ties to why he hates Katniss so much. Like he reminds her of Lucy.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: She sings that song. the katniss he has this relationship to the katniss plant she's from 12.
Jordyn: The marking jays. He hates marking jays already.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I'm excited. i'm Excited to reread Sunrise on the Reaping because it's Hamish's story, which is our only other Victor of 12 to see.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: What happens in this storyline. Because he has meetings with. like hamish and snow have a meeting and a discussion so What?
Chris: I do love that book.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: again from
Chris: I'm really excited to go over that one.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: this book.
Chris: Makes it.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: leads to his hatred of Katniss.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Other than her just being amazing.
Jordyn: I'm not excited. I'm not excited to reread Centers on the Reaping because I'm going to cry so much.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Oh it's a rough book for sure.
Chris: It is, but it's so good.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: yeah yeah yeah I don't know how I'm going to make it through the movie. Oh my God.
Jordyn: No, I know.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And Matt, we just decided we probably won't go together. It's because of babies and finances. And I'm like, oh, we'll have to see this by myself. Oh, no.
Scotty: Oh, no.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I'm gonna be crying alone.
Chris: Live texting us.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I will have to. Yeah.
Jordyn: Don't. Don't live text in the theater.
Scotty: don't be that person
Jordyn: I have yelled at people for doing that before.
Chris: Do it.
Scotty: You're going to get someone like me come walk up like, put your phone away.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: you're right you're right you're right
Chris: Yeah, you can't have...
Jordyn: Same. Same.
Chris: That's Scotty.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I'll just send you guys a video message of me crying after.
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: All right. So we've jumped around a little bit, but let's go back to. Peace. second murder that snow commits is the murder of of Mayfair.
Scotty: Mayfair.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And then I forget. prep prep What's the other guy's name? The other rebel that is involved in this spruce.
Jordyn: Spruce.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay. So it's during one of her concerts and. he follows sejanus and that's when they're talking about the weapons and then she comes off stage and also discovers all this and this is when They hear Mayfair, but she's behind the door, I believe, in the book, right? Although she's in the building with them in the movie.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Because doesn't he shoot her through the door? As she's like running away.
Jordyn: I don't think so
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Did I misread this? Okay.
Scotty: I don't remember that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: She's in the room with him.
Jordyn: Mm hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay.
Jordyn: because she's with
Chris: She dies, that's all I know.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, that's the important part.
Jordyn: She's, yeah.
Scotty: She did.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And then Spruce shoots Billy.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Tho sto - Otis. He shoot her him in the movie, too, or does Snow shoot both of them?
Chris: No, I didn't get those.
Scotty: Uh, no.
Jordyn: No snow suits, Mayfair.
Scotty: Snow only shoots her and then...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay, so that's the same.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: And then Billy starts going after Snow and Spruce kills him.
Chris: Because it has to only be two kills so far.
Scotty: Correct.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Scotty: Correct.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Okay.
Scotty: Yep.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And then. He tells her, Snow tells Lucy Gray to go back on the stage for her alibi.
Chris: Nothing happened yet, pretend you don't know.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: This is really the only moment for me I did not. Believe. Ser Janus's acting. With his. The end.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I get that the character would be so distraught that two people just died.
Scotty: The show. Chalks. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: But.
Jordyn: Mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I just felt that it was a little over. I think this whole scene actually was just off. So maybe it's a direct or. directorial thing And again, it's also very condensed and rushed.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So maybe I just have problems with this scene.
Chris: I was going to say it might have been earned fully there. because of that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right. But yeah, that was. It - I definitely remember being brought out of the movie during the scene it just was it just didn't feel right. It didn't look right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: But we got back on track later.
Jordyn: Whoa. yeah well because again like we don't have that time with Coriolanus and Seginus where they like talk about it because Coriolanus has already tried to talk to Sejanus like you can't do anything for them like it's hopeless like you know we need the capital the capital is good like controlling the chaos is a good thing like he's already tried to like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: fight with him about it and like talk to him and like get him to not do this and then like Because again, this is happening over several weeks because they can only go see Lucy Gray and the Covey perform every Saturday.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: And so like last week he disappeared and he didn't know where. And then, you know, they went to the lake and he was caught talking to Billy Tope. And then like the week after that.
Jordyn: now he's following him out so that way he can see what he's up to and so like That. Like... extended series of events.
Jordyn: I think would have made this scene make more sense and feel more natural.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: But also, I don't think in the book that Sejanis has.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yes.
Jordyn: this freak out where he's like crying and like i don't think that happens either because i'm like you just
Sarah-Daye McDougall: He's more in shock, right?
Jordyn: Yeah. I'm like, you just watched the hunger games, dude.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: Like you've seen people die and. arguably more gruesome deaths than getting shot like This is not anything new to you. So, like, why are we...
Scotty: Maybe it's the fact that Corey Alanis did it.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah, I was about to say that and it just escalated so quickly
Scotty: that he saw his friend.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: perpetrate it
Jordyn: But he watched Corey Alanis kill Bobbin when Corey, when Corey had to save him in the arena too.
Scotty: That's fair. That's fair. True.
Jordyn: So, and maybe cause he's in, I don't know.
Scotty: True.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Bye. He's being...
Jordyn: I don't know.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: by Bobbin. Like Bobbin is trying to kill them and that's more self -defense.
Jordyn: Yes. Totally.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And I think Corey Olenis also justified that. back then that it was self -defense.
Jordyn: Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: uh whereas this she was running away like she was
Scotty: Right.
Jordyn: He justifies this as self -defense too.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: In a I've been arrested sense, but she's not attacking him.
Jordyn: He does. Yes. Well, yeah, we know that we're rational.
Scotty: It's preemptive self -defense.
Jordyn: We know that it's not really self -defense, but he justifies it exactly like you said, she's going to go and.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For his power, yeah.
Jordyn: yeah she's gonna report it i'm gonna get in trouble so it really is self -defense if you actually think about it it's like no she was running away and you shot her in the back like that's not self -defense dude
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yep.
Scotty: Right. All right. I know the book does a really good job. when like lucy lucy gray excuse me not lucy lucy gray when she's giving her performances like a lot of times they'll just like let the full song like let you read the full song and i can't remember if in this sequence if they do that in the book or not but i As I was watching the movie, it kind of dawned on me.
Scotty: As she's watching snow, like... leave her performance and go see what's going on. in the hall or downstairs wherever the song that she's singing sounds like she's singing about snow.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Scotty: Like the...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It is.
Scotty: Okay. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I was going to mention this also. I liked that they hinted on this in the movie. Like you can see him when she says Snow is white or white as snow or something like that. You see him react in the movie.
Jordyn: Pure as snow.
Scotty: Mm hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And in the book, when we're getting his thoughts on that. That line is like oh the songs about me. This is for me. She actually loves me
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Scotty: That's right. That's right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So I was very happy to see his acknowledgement of that in the movie.
Jordyn: When again that goes back to his control because several of her other songs are about her
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: ended relationship with billy taupe and he's super pissed about that he hates that he's like she's mine now why is she still singing about him and so then he finally feels like okay like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Billy.
Scotty: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Scotty: Hmm.
Jordyn: Once she sings the song about snow, he's like, okay, I did win. She is. I did win my prize of her. She is mine now. I own her. She belongs to me, not to Billy Tope. And that's when he like.
Jordyn: gets that like Okay. safe trust she's with me type deal where he is again willing to risk things for her he tells her go get back on stage so you have an alibi like willing to at least at the time run away with her you know because he believes
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm
Jordyn: But and again, we talked about earlier, like how much on her part is genuine? Does she know that she needs to convince him? that she's on his side so he doesn't betray her? Or does she actually love him and, you know, wrote this song, you know?
Jordyn: Could be both too.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I do think she loves him. But that just goes back to how good he is at. manipulating. relationships. Speaking of running away with. her.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: That is a change. the movie made. when he's told. that he passed the test and he's going to go to. District 12.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: He did not know that.
Jordyn: Two.
Chris: District 2.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Sorry, yes, District 2. He did not know that when... He was like, yes, let's run away together. He literally thought he had no other options.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And I was a little upset that the movie. told him before she said she was going to run away. Because... He had him out.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Like, and he.
Jordyn: Mm hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: he wouldn't he wouldn't have run away with her. And maybe this goes back to the movie being a little bit more concrete.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: Well that was supposed to be the romanticization I think.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Chris: It was supposed to be.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I think the movie.
Chris: Am I gonna choose her or am I gonna choose my old life?
Sarah-Daye McDougall: but
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I think the book did a better job of us. Asking. Do we believe he really loves her? or not. And if... like she didn't have District 2 as an option for a reason.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And I do believe that if he knew about District 2, look.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Snow would have gone. To district. to and left her. there i left everything that's happening in 12.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: Sure.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: so i don't like because
Jordyn: yeah
Sarah-Daye McDougall: This goes back to the movie being more concrete. We saw her run through the woods. We saw the. the headdress on the ground.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And then he knows about two. And so I just feel like. They made the movie. not as ambiguous as the book was.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: But we have the prequel problem of we know where he's going to end up, though.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: made him more sympathetic.
Chris: So we know he doesn't run away with her. So no matter what happens here, we knew from the beginning of this story.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: But even the book, we know that. Yeah.
Chris: I know, but that's what I'm saying is this all has that prequel problem of Anakin has to become Darth Vader by the end of the story.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I just, I... I just don't like that the movie gave us District 2 before. He agreed to run away with her.
Jordyn: Yeah Yeah, I agree with you, Sarah Day. If he already had the option of District 2, I don't think he's even – I don't think books know if he already had the option of District 2.
Jordyn: I don't think he's even bothering to go out and watch the Covey perform. I think he's locked in getting ready to – because he said it's like, what, like 10 days or something.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yep.
Jordyn: I think – That version of Snow is locked in.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yes.
Jordyn: I'm on base. I'm training. I'm getting back to two so I can get home where I'm supposed to be. I don't think he's bothering with her at all at that point.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It would have made it better if he. if she's like the mayor wants to kill me i'm gonna run away and he's like why don't you just come to two with me like he would have found a way to bring her to two with him.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: They already established that he's manipulative and cunning enough to do that.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: even with his like title stripped away It was an option. Like it was there. It was there as an option. So why not even discuss it?
Jordyn: Well, I think they cut his...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: manipulative prowess a little bit and i this just came to me but in part one when he gets on in the carriage to go to the zoo with them he sneaks on when one of the tributes makes a run for it versus in the book he charms a peacekeeper hey you know i this is my tribute i just want to go with them is it okay like so i think his charm got cut back in the movie so he does have
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm. mm -hmm
Scotty: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Scotty: Right.
Jordyn: Like he doesn't have that. I wouldn't believe that he had that power. to convince somebody to let her come with him, especially because inner district travel is completely banned, even up.
Jordyn: into the 74th and 75th games you're not allowed to travel between districts so I don't think And especially without him having displayed the charm and the cunning to make things happen for himself.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: Yeah.
Jordyn: I don't think that it could have happened in the movie the way that it was, but in the book. Again, if they made this other fundamental change of him already having the option of two, I think, you know.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: it could have worked.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: What? Well, that just...
Chris: Is he going to choose the district? It added that element to. you know he has an option now He has to choose her if he wants to do this.
Chris: And so I think that was what it was about.
Scotty: Right.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: To piggyback off that, just to play a little bit of devil's advocate, the other thing I think that... choice in the film to make the the knowledge of two before, you know, as kind of a... crux in the decision -making process. I think it's... kind of effectively does what the book was really able to do but the movie doesn't spend any time on when he's in the woods with lucy gray it's it's very quick that he's like oh I'm not.
Scotty: built for this.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: This sucks. Yeah.
Scotty: Yeah, like I'm not an outdoorsman.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: I like my creature comforts. So just like him being kind of half -hearted.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Chris: and the loose end though too.
Scotty: in it even though he you know quote -unquote loves her and is running away with her, the fact that he does have that option for District 2 kind of in his back pocket. Kind of. Effectively did that for me
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: and so as soon as he got the loose end tied up with the gun he felt like okay that's my better option than this this was an option while i knew that i might get caught now that i'm not going to get caught i can go back and be who i'm supposed to be
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I... I think that we've kind of covered a majority of it. Because we've kind of talked about their running away together. And so that this brings us back to, yeah, he gets his district to.
Chris: Which ends up just being going to the Capitol instead.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right. Because gal.
Chris: Get sent back there because Gaul wants him back.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah. That little groomer woman gets him back.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And then we get.
Chris: under his feet.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: everything kind of gets wrapped up so he he has a conversation with high bottom And he sneaks. the rat poison into the
Jordyn: So Janice's medication.
Scotty: Morphling.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: More fleeing, more fleeing.
Chris: More fun.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And kills Highbottom. And then. He... So Jane has had a... gotten him a graduation certificate as well when he got came to 12. So he has graduated from the school.
Chris: University.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So now he gets to go to university.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and He's...
Chris: Study directly under Gaul.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The plinths. That is what I'm trying to get at. Thank you. The plinths.
Chris: Oh yeah. Okay.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: kind of adopt him like they lost a son he lost parents yes yes so that's where he kind of gets all that money and power not just because of his cunningness and his snow name and he makes a point in the book to mention i'm not giving up my snow name like we are the snows and snow always
Chris: He becomes the heir, yeah.
Chris: Which...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Lance on top. But because. He had this. You know, he never considered Sejin as a friend at all. I think he was always annoyed by him and frustrated with him. But Sejanus always referred to him as his best friend.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And he gave that impression to his parents.
Chris: Like a brother.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: So they were able to. kind of Give back. to Snow in that way after losing Sejanus.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: And that's kind of how we end. Ballad of songbirds and snakes. What a ride.
Scotty: Which it's just worth pointing out like snow thought that that was his birthright he thought the reason that he was always annoyed by sejanus and never really saw him as that friend is because he thought that he had his lot in life he's like i'm supposed to be the munitions heir
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Scotty: who's, you know, our name is reclaiming. stake within the Capitol in this. district sympathizer is just a thorn in my side. every uh every every turn and i do think you know He had some measure of affection.
Scotty: for him.
Chris: By the end, yes.
Scotty: Towards the end.
Scotty: Uh,
Scotty: Yeah, but it's not lost on anybody the fact that like oh, you know this Oh, Corio, you were always such a good friend to Sejanus, his only friend, looking out for him, protecting him. No, dude.
Scotty: was basically serving him up on a silver platter so he could get to where he's at right now and you all fell hook, line and sinker.
Chris: Right.
Chris: And that's how he goes on all for the future's next 70, 60 years or whatever.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Chris: It's just using people to get where he wants to be.
Scotty: I'm the victor.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm.
Chris: Build me a Death Star.
Jordyn: Yeah, I think goals like explanation of like i didn't want you to just waste your summer hanging out here in the capital like i wanted you to go and learn something before university
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yep. Hmm.
Chris: Didn't you enjoy summer camp?
Jordyn: Yeah, like the fact that she. ended up being the one who orchestrated everything and it was her call to force him to be a peacekeeper and allow him to go to 12 and her call to bring him back and like she's just so powerful pulling all these strings I think you're right.
Jordyn: SD like she very much has been grooming him since the first moment they interact she's like oh this guy gets it i can turn him into this ultimate protege and you know train him
Chris: And the fact that his father was the one with the original idea and everything kind of made him, I think, a target for her.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: What was it?
Jordyn: It stole it from high bottom.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: He took credit for it. Yeah, it was not his idea.
Chris: Right. but he's the one that she got the idea from she took it on from so that's where he gets the credit for it even as his father had it so
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: Yes.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right. And he kills Highbottom, so that's never coming out.
Chris: So now he's the one.
Jordyn: No more loose ends.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: No more loose ends. That's why I'm just so surprised but again in the book There's no... Skull doesn't know anything.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: But yeah. Anyway, any final?
Jordyn: yeah in the book there are genuinely no more loose ends and so he's able to just go on his
Sarah-Daye McDougall: mm -hmm
Jordyn: sadistic little way.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I do want to say I just loved his look at the end. I mean, I hate Snow as a character, but. The way they dressed him and they guess they fixed his hair and like that just the outfit was so good and just so.
Chris: Hair growing back a little bit. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: In your face, like I made it. you know, especially in that. conversation with High Bottom. And just the way he carried himself, I think Tom did a really good job. himself progressing from scared little boy to President Snow.
Jordyn: Mhm.
Scotty: I mean, Tiger said it. He said, what do you think?
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm
Scotty: I think you look just like your father, which is so heartbreaking.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Jordyn: Mhm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It's hard to say you feel bad for presidents now.
Jordyn: No.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Bye.
Jordyn: I don't feel...
Scotty: It's not really, I mean, it's just, it's just, yeah, it's tragic. We knew that that was ultimately going to be his fate, but the fact that it was somewhat avoidable and honestly, I don't feel bad for him.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: I feel bad for. tigers that's who it's heartbreaking for to me she's like don't become your father when i looked at your father the thing i remember about him is that all i saw was hate in his eyes
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Tigress. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Scotty: don't be like that
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: And.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The more we have this conversation, the more I would just love it if
Scotty: He's like that.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: The third prequel. has tigress as a main character like i really want to know what her
Scotty: Sure, sure
Sarah-Daye McDougall: What happens in the next 50 years?
Scotty: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah. Any other final thoughts before we hop off?
Scotty: It's not something I want to spend a ton of time on but I just feel like we didn't do it Proper justice here, but it doesn't matter if it's the movie or the book. I I do have to say so janice's death is one of the most haunting things like it just when i saw it in the movie theater the first time like that was the thing that stuck with me like days after I saw it.
Scotty: And then, yeah, reading it, it's just so haunting. He's such a... tragic. well -meaning character and to just be served up on a silver
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Scotty: platter like that is uh It's shocking and traumatic on some level so and very well done and very impactful so kudos to Suzanne Collins for creating such a
Jordyn: mm -hmm
Scotty: Rich character that it hurts that much when we when we do lose him.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Not to mention the Jabber Jays.
Chris: He was so genuine.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Scotty: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, the jabberjays make it that much more haunting for sure.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Scotty: Yeah awful
Chris: So genuine, so naive, and yet it becomes such an impactful thing because of that.
Scotty: The fact that he says ma.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: Ugh. Just give me goosebumps.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: He's too pure for this world.
Jordyn: yeah and i i've said it so many times like they're kids they're kids it's like he's still a kid him and choreo like they're both like 18 years old like legally adults maybe but like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: you're still children. Like you literally just finished high school a week ago. these are kids.
Scotty: Right.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: And especially how close they were, which you didn't really get to see in the movie.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: But, you know, again, in the book, like. knowing how deep. his relationship is with his mom, how much. choreo develops a relationship with his mom like
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Jordyn: that. Yeah, you're right. It's very, very heartbreaking.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: You're right
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Let's not end on that really morbid note, though.
Scotty: Sorry. Yeah, let's bring the mood back up.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: What you got?
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Somebody, anything?
Jordyn: Uh...
Jordyn: I mean, Francis Lawrence just is always in his bag when he's doing a Hunger Games movie.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: Like I love the fact that he's done. not all of them right but from catching fire on i think he's doing done them.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I'm gonna pull it up right now.
Scotty: I think you're right about. I think you're right about that. He may have. He may have even done 2012s. Hunger Games but maybe not
Sarah-Daye McDougall: i'm pulling yeah let's see
Jordyn: double check
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Gary Ross did the first one.
Scotty: Okay, okay.
Jordyn: Okay, but Francis Lawrence has done all the other ones.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I believe so. Catching fire.
Jordyn: Okay.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Is Francis Lawrence. Yes. So since Catching Fire, he's directed all the movies.
Jordyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: and i think i'm pretty sure he's doing sunrise
Jordyn: I just...
Scotty: Okay.
Jordyn: Yeah, I just I love that consistency.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yes.
Jordyn: of having the same director throughout this franchise like making everything and even the the transition from gary ross to francis lawrence was really smooth i feel but like having that consistency of this same director who has partnered with this author.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm hmm.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mm -hmm
Jordyn: and is delivering this vision. and this you know the cinematic universe like I think that's really... wonderful and i You can tell when the directors change.
Jordyn: Like in Harry Potter, we just were talking about Harry Potter.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Mhm.
Jordyn: Like. Earlier today we were recording. You can tell the difference between when Christopher Columbus is... the director, and Alfonso Cuaron.
Scotty: Alfonso Cuaron.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Scotty: Yeah, he's...
Sarah-Daye McDougall: That's... Yeah.
Jordyn: The tone, the coloring, everything about those is very different. You can tell. You can't really tell there's a difference in directors. And then I think... intentionally having the same director like who understands the vision and executes it really well every time.
Jordyn: I think that's... such a great, like. plus for this franchise.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Chris: You mean Star Wars struggled from having different directors? I don't think so. There isn't a big sequel trilogy with a bunch of misguided directions.
Jordyn: Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: well and that's something like marvel with having feige at the top you know like they can do different directors but they still have
Chris: They've kept consistency from the other executives that are very involved there.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right. Mm hmm.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: Yeah.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: yeah and we'll see what all these fandoms start doing if they follow that route or not but with hunger games it's different because there's not 20 different stories happening.
Jordyn: Yeah.
Chris: Not yet.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: one at a time.
Jordyn: Well, I think that's a credit to that like you said in our last episode, Suzanne Collins.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah.
Jordyn: she only writes when she has something to say and so i think like because the universe is not oversaturated. with like fluff like not that anything in the hunger games universe can be fluffy but like like unnecessary weight to it like everything is very intentional very thought out very planned out and so like i think having every single book have a purpose and a story to tell
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right.
Jordyn: makes it a lot easier for every movie to have. that to be able to follow that without getting too down in the weeds of random side plots and side characters that like we don't really need to care about.
Chris: Yep. Alright.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yeah. All right. Well, thank you for joining us for this conversation of The Hunger Games, The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes. We will be coming back in November to cover Sunrise on the Reaping and J.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Scottie. Of course, you're going to be back for those as well.
Scotty: I got some reading to do.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: I can't wait to hear what you think about that book because you haven't read that one, right?
Scotty: No, it's next up on the docket for me.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Right. Perfect.
Jordyn: My boy.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: Yes. Please message us and let us know your thoughts.
Jordyn: Live reactions.
Scotty: Will do.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: It's rough.
Scotty: Okay. Okay.
Sarah-Daye McDougall: uh yeah okay so we will see you guys next time
Scotty: Later.
