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The One About the Microcredential
241 Plays2 years ago
Phil Hill, Neil Mosley, and Glenda Morgan discuss Microcredentials and their impact on higher education. What is considered a microcredential, how can they help students succeed in their career field, and who is creating quality courses.
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview of Microcredentials
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to Online Education Across the Atlantic. I'm Phil Hill, and I'm here again with my colleagues, Neil Mosley. It's good to see you, Neil. Hey, how are you doing? I'm doing great. And Glenda Morgan. It's good to see you again. Hey, Phil.
00:00:28
Speaker
Well, today we're going to take a different tactic. The first episode, we really covered the online program management or OPM market and some of the complexity behind it.
Defining Microcredentials: Avoiding Debates
00:00:38
Speaker
But today we're going to be looking at micro credentials. And with that, I'd like to actually turn it over to Morgan to get us started.
00:00:46
Speaker
Thanks, Phil. So today we're going to be talking about micro credentials or alternative credentials. And my first question is, you know, what are we talking about when we talk about micro credentials? And I don't want to belabor the point and get lost in the endless definitional arguments like we had about learning objects back about 20 years ago. What is a learning object? Is it this? Is it that? I don't want to get stuck in that, but I think we do need to think about
00:01:09
Speaker
What are we talking about when we talk about microcredentials? Are there some essential components to microcredentials? What are the boundaries? Are bootcamp certificates microcredentials? What about badges? Where do they fit in then? However we define them, I think we can all agree that microcredentials have become increasingly important.
Challenges in Microcredential Implementation
00:01:31
Speaker
We can see it in some of the enrollment data here in the United States with more people signing up for shorter term credentials, so certificates.
00:01:38
Speaker
and those sorts of less than a degree credentials. But I'm frustrated by a lot of the coverage of micro-credentials.
00:01:48
Speaker
It all seems focused on the same kinds of issues. Again, it's the definitional thing. We don't have ways of comparing them, people having angst about quality, people having angst about how employers are going to receive microcredentials. And at the same time, they're neglecting some of what I think are some of the really important, but perhaps maybe dull things about microcredentials. How do we support them? What are the technology environments that we need in order to adequately
00:02:18
Speaker
support microcredentials? Can we use the same sort of technologies as we use to support regular credentials to support those microcredentials? Are we talking about freestanding credentials or attached to something else sort of like a degree?
00:02:34
Speaker
And in general, what sort of challenges are folks facing when they meet micro
Microcredentials: Trend or Lasting Change?
00:02:39
Speaker
credentials? So even though it seems like every week I open my email and there's another report about micro credentials, they aren't really getting to the meat of the issue. So I'm looking forward to a real discussion today about what are we talking about? How can we support them? What are the obstacles and how can we get over them? How does that sound you guys?
00:02:59
Speaker
That sounds great. It's got a little bit of how can you eat your pudding if you haven't had your meat kind of set up, which is probably might be a theme of this series as we go forward. Yes. Yes. A little Pink Floyd there.
00:03:16
Speaker
When I talk about microcredentials,
Microcredentials in the UK: Funding and Demand
00:03:18
Speaker
I'm essentially talking about a fairly small qualification that is something like a certificate, but not necessarily a certificate. It is less than a degree. It potentially has some degree of stackability, that is, you can combine them into something larger.
00:03:36
Speaker
and often they are workforce or skills related, so they have a particular relationship to helping the participant get a job or advance their career or upskill in some sort of a way. So it's essentially shortness, it's career relation, and it is
00:03:56
Speaker
an aspect of them that enables them to be combined. Those are the three components for me of microcredentials. That's what I'm talking
Tech and System Integration Challenges
00:04:04
Speaker
about when I talk about microcredentials. What about you guys? I'd love to hear from Neil first on this. One of the value of this conversation is getting different geographic perspectives.
00:04:15
Speaker
It's a really interesting one because I think it's so much a kind of trickier type of product, if you can call it that, and then a degree. We know what we're talking about when we're talking about degrees. For me, I suppose I have a more broader kind of ecumenical approach to micro-credentials. I think of it as a bigger catch-all term for a range of different types of educational experience that sit underneath a degree.
00:04:45
Speaker
And I think, you know, I'm sure we'll get on to this, but I think that's one of the challenges behind micro credentials is that I think it basically works as a big catch-all.
00:04:56
Speaker
And I'm not sure how adequate it is when you kind of break that down. So I describe it as a big catch-all rather than some of the other definitions around it having to be stackable or having to be work skills related. And that's kind of how I think about it, I think. How about you, Phil?
University System Integration: Registration and Identity Management
00:05:18
Speaker
Well, it's interesting. It's an anecdote, but I think that's what podcasts are for or anecdotes, but had somebody recently where when we use the term micro credential.
00:05:30
Speaker
They interpret it very specifically, almost like a stackable credential, you know, such as if you look at edX with a MicroMasters, very much defined as certificates that are part of a degree program. So we had somebody recently who interpreted that way and said, no, we're not doing that. We're just doing non-credit courses and short programs. And and as you thought about it, it's like it was the opposite problem of what you're saying.
00:05:59
Speaker
So, I mean, that is part of the nature of the beast, but I don't know how I would define it. I think the key thing is to capture that there are different perspectives on how broad the definition is, and that's part of what we're talking about.
Microcredentials vs Online Education: Parallels
00:06:14
Speaker
Absolutely. And recently, if we actually made a list of the different kinds of them, and there was a very, very long list, and it did start getting shorter, but it was, it was still quite a long list in terms of boot camp kinds of situations, you know, industry certifications, feeder programs or pipeline programs into into proper degrees, but
00:06:36
Speaker
I think it does tend to be broad and I think broadness is a virtue even though I didn't include that in my definition and not to be completely a pushover here.
00:06:49
Speaker
Well, I think I might have copped out a little bit. For me, I think the key element, I think we're all talking it's underneath a degree. It's less than a degree in duration and expected content. But I think the program nature of it is quite important to think about.
System Flexibility and Engagement Hurdles
00:07:05
Speaker
This is not just an individual course. It's a grouping of courses that supposedly or makes the assumption that the provider has thought about the
00:07:15
Speaker
you need these three, four, whatever the number is, number of topics, and they fit together to provide value to a student. So there's a program element. So it's bigger than a course, it's smaller than a degree, and it should tie together coherently.
00:07:31
Speaker
Yeah. And for me, I think part of why I glom onto the skills or the workforce-based thing is to sort of distinguish between old-school continuing education or lifelong learning, you know, where you took a jazz certificate, a certificate in jazz or something because that was fun or interesting to you, whereas now I think there's a more instrumental aspect to things.
00:07:56
Speaker
Pun intended. Yeah. You know, moving on from the definition, I think we we talk about sort of, is it a thing yet?
Student Demand and Business Model Uncertainty
00:08:07
Speaker
You know, is it a fad or or is it something that has staying power? Is it going to continuing? Is it going to continue to be an enduring trend in higher education, something that is going to grow perhaps or or or become a more and more important part? Is it a growth area?
00:08:25
Speaker
I think it's pretty clear. It's definitely a growth area in US higher education enrollment. Like, it's not necessarily a financial growth for the providers. So in other words, it's very mixed on whether an institution or a vendor can do this profitably.
00:08:45
Speaker
and expect it to be a growing area so the financials are questionable but from the broader enrollment trends demonstrating that students want something that's smaller than a degree,
00:08:59
Speaker
I consider this definitely there. It's growth, maybe it's a mega trend, as in we're not quite sure what it's going to look like five years from now, but I am fairly confident that this area is going to keep getting explored. It's not going to go away. So I guess that's the way I would add. It's definitely not going away. There is student demand, but what it is, I'm not sure that we have the business models or even the
00:09:26
Speaker
value of the credential that we're going to expect in the future.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think I agree with Phil. It's not going away. But I think it's one of those things that there's enough noise about it to warrant people and institutions to increase the supply and the opportunity. And I definitely see that in the UK around people developing microcredentials or unbundling degrees and pursuing that kind of avenue. So there's enough.
00:10:00
Speaker
There's enough kind of noise and power behind the kind of hype, if we can put it like that, so much so that institutions are actually kind of making an effort and looking to develop things. There's always been a little bit of a debate in the UK around what the demand actually looks like.
00:10:19
Speaker
And we don't always have the most robust kind of metrics around those types of standalone things. We have a big funding change upcoming in the UK where rather than getting funding for a degree, you can actually essentially have funding spread over your lifetime for smaller offerings. So we have a funding change that kind of speaks to the micro credentials narrative a little bit.
Employer Partnerships in Microcredential Development
00:10:46
Speaker
there's been trials here in the UK around that and the the uptake of funding for that type of thing through trials was very low and so there's come kind of conjecture around that around whether that points to weak demand or whether the trial was run badly so yeah I mean in summary there's
00:11:08
Speaker
there's people betting on it in terms of increasing supply but demand is also a bit of a question i think here but like like phil said it's it's definitely not going away um it's certainly not going away in terms of the thought pieces and the articles anyway that's for sure there's going to be a lot of media writing about still yeah
00:11:30
Speaker
But I want to glom on to something that Phil said, which is about, you know, there's not really a way to make money yet.
Institutional Challenges and Support Systems
00:11:36
Speaker
And I think, you know, for me, a danger sign is the fact that a lot of places are, for example, looking at enrollment declines and looking at the need for increased revenue and saying, okay, micro credentials are the place to go. And that's a real
00:11:50
Speaker
challenge for me, because I don't think the business models have been worked out yet, in terms of how to actually do that. And I think there's a lot of there are a lot of broken hearts in the future amongst universities and colleges as they try to sort of figure that out. Well, to a degree, isn't that like online education that we talked about in the first episode where there is a tendency of institutional leadership to
00:12:17
Speaker
say ah new revenue opportunity this is going to help us out and not realize you're talking investment you're talking figuring out the model longer term and developing capabilities and long term it might pay off so i think there's a lot of commonality with that approach as well i think as well to that point morgan i guess um there's kind of how wise you venture how wise you are as you venture into it and i know that there's universities here in the uk who
00:12:46
Speaker
who, I don't think they're necessarily really firm on how they define things, but their approach is a lot more aligned with skills, working with employers, getting employer endorsement around that, probably because of their sense of that risk of
00:13:03
Speaker
you know, the kind of financial aspect of it and the kind of demand aspect of it. So, you know, there are, there are, there are institutions who are aware of that kind of risk and align it more closely with employers, more closely with skills. And they might do that through relationships that they already have in their kind of region.
Flexible Engagement Systems in Higher Education
00:13:24
Speaker
And I guess that's what makes the skills link and the employment link quite compelling because it potentially mitigates some of the actual or perceived risk of going down this route and that sense of is it a fad or is it something that's genuine.
00:13:42
Speaker
Well, isn't there a mismatch? Like Morgan, you started out and you mentioned that you're frustrated with the coverage. I think part of what we're calling out is the coverage highlights sort of the sexy new stuff, the MicroMasters, this changes everything.
00:13:59
Speaker
And the more fundamental changes of significance are the boring stuff behind the scenes that's already been started quite often. But that's not what you get written about. And therefore, too often, I think it's not a friend of mine when leadership is trying to decide it. So there's a mismatch there. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, there's there's there's not a coverage of the boring plumbing stuff in the background that needs to be addressed in order for these things to be
00:14:29
Speaker
adequately done. And I think two things were particularly for me, one is policy, but the other one is technology. And I'm frustrated by, you know, even the vendors are talking about micro micro credentials or alternative credentials, but they focus on things like showing your credential or badges or things like that, rather than, okay, how do I get students in there and these multiple starts in different kinds of ways with all the complex financial things that need to go on?
00:14:57
Speaker
and help people administer that. So I think there is a mismatch there, definitely.
Non-Matriculated Students and Access Management
00:15:04
Speaker
I think that's where the micro-credential things tied into a much bigger area, which is how do universities, how do higher education institutions better support more flexible ways of engaging with them? Because actually some of the things that I see and hear around things like systems not supporting
00:15:26
Speaker
Flexible learning are equally applied to online learning as much as they are to any moves into micro credentials. I remember chatting to, I said this in a talk that I gave recently, I remember chatting to someone in a university that I worked at and said, look, we can add a really decent number of people engaging with us in exactly the same way. So we could add another 100 students doing a degree. But if we came to even just having five people
00:15:55
Speaker
enrolling five people who are all engaging with us in different ways, our systems would really struggle with that. And I think that's that sort of problem for microcredentials around systems, but it's also a problem around online learning and anything around an increased number of start dates for programs and things like that. So I think that's part of a bigger issue, but it's certainly an issue for microcredentials too.
Traditional System Overhaul for Microcredentials
00:16:22
Speaker
And we've seen recently, and again, it's the boring stuff. I mean, simply going to non-matriculated students, they're not in, and they haven't been accepted and vetted into a degree program. That simple fact that you're now saying, hey, if you want to try this out, do this course and you'll pay as you go,
00:16:45
Speaker
That simple change is huge because our institutions have been relying upon these administrative student information systems that are so tied to regulations and reporting and the traditional way of doing operations that to do a non-matriculated student changes everything. So now it's like, well, we have to have a duplicate system to do registration and showing the catalog of what's even available.
00:17:12
Speaker
but it also gets into payment and identity and access management, such as, and we dealt with this quite heavily recently, it's a university that's put a lot of time into saying when you have this ID system, identity management, that means you get access to your LMS, you get access to library resources, you get access even like key cards to come on campus. Well, now with the micro-credential,
00:17:42
Speaker
Do they get the same access? A lot of contracts are written with payments based on the number of students. Are you gonna change that up? So I think this area right here is huge and it's a barrier for a lot of these programs to be able to move forward.
Reflecting Broader Educational Challenges
00:17:59
Speaker
But I would argue it's not just technology, it's technology and the built up processes that we've put around the technology.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, the close tie between technology and business processes in a way, the way that those sort of are mutually enabling of things. And they challenge those things, I think definitely. Another issue which, and sorry if I'm going off in a direction, but another issue is also, you know, some of the things that people have put in place for micro credentials or alternative credentials are still based on the assumption that it's a one off kind of thing.
00:18:40
Speaker
So a student takes a course in or micro credential and then they're done, but they come back and the system has forgotten them. You know, there's not a sort of sense that you're continuing presence
Adapting Technology and Processes for Microcredentials
00:18:51
Speaker
there. So even though it's a separate system, it's it's it's embedded some of the problems of the of the more traditional systems as well. But I interrupted somebody
00:19:03
Speaker
Well, that's fine. No, I definitely think that's a problem. There are just so many unknowns right here. So, I mean, for me, and I'm sort of summarizing this even in my head as we go, but I mean, you're getting such clear signals of potential student demand, what they want. But to be able to provide it in a way that makes sense is where most of the challenge is, which goes back to your introduction, sort of the plumbing and the
00:19:29
Speaker
difficult things. So that's the period that we're in right now. And yeah, you're right, registering, catalog, identity management, and persistence of that learner, building a system around the learner so that if they come back to do more, I mean, yeah, those are boring, but hugely important issues.
Long-term Evolution in Education
00:19:50
Speaker
And I think maybe some of the frustration around the sort of discourse is that when people talk about microcredentials, it can feel like they're talking about a really small thing. And actually, I think this is a much bigger area of change moving from these really well-established products that work in a certain way in which all of your processes and all your systems kind of support to something that's just a lot more open
00:20:19
Speaker
And I think that's kind of the heart of the challenge really. I think for institutions, you know, my own take is, you know, this is going to be a long
00:20:31
Speaker
going to be talking about this for a while because it will take a long time for change to filter through to order to facilitate this in lots of different ways and so you know taking those smaller steps whether it's you know the kind of unbundling of degrees and I've seen universities over here in the UK have have an approach in which there's more flexible route to get a degree or a bigger qualification that could fall under the micro credentials banner or
00:20:58
Speaker
slightly more smaller moves around what I talked about earlier where you're engaging with local employers and you're developing things around that.
Successful Practices and International Approaches
00:21:08
Speaker
You know I think those are the kind of smaller moves this is very much kind of a cycle of evolution I think probably for higher education and it's going to take a while for everything to
00:21:18
Speaker
you know, the foundations to change to be able to support it in the kind of expansive way that you could think about micro credentials. So, you know, that unbundling and those kind of moves into more skills-based stuff with partnerships with employers feels like a compelling, compelling step on the road for tackling it. Are there other sort of promising practices out there that you think is, you know, somebody doing a good job of supporting this?
00:21:49
Speaker
Well, thinking about that, I would and it might not have been called micro credentials at the beginning, but where I've seen the most success, the academic community, the involvement of them with the local workforce, usually local, but the world is changing.
00:22:07
Speaker
So for example, in the US, I think the AWS certificates that are quite often being partnered with community colleges, I think those have been quite successful. People are getting value from it. It's sort of spreading to community colleges. And part of the defining moment is they co-developed this from the beginning.
00:22:32
Speaker
It wasn't a micro credential on, Oh, let's find out which employer might care about it. They were involved from day one.
00:22:40
Speaker
And you could even go back, you know, I don't know if you would consider the old Microsoft, well, I don't know that they're old, the Microsoft certificates, if you would consider that micro credentials, but clearly that had an enormous impact.
Pathways Through Microcredentials for Careers
00:22:53
Speaker
But so that early on tie to the employer base seems to be a key component. It doesn't guarantee success, but those are two examples I've seen that have been successful.
00:23:08
Speaker
In terms of approaches, I'm also a big fan of Singapore, in fact, where the government, which like the UK has a lifetime learning allotment that people get, and one of the things they do is help
00:23:23
Speaker
help publish pathways through credentials. So if you get this credential, then you get that credential, that certificate, it gives you a pathway to a particular kind of career because I think we assume students know how to how to stack these things or or how to how to part your blazer trail through a
00:23:41
Speaker
a set of credentials. So that's one particular thing that I especially like as well. And Australia and New Zealand have some interesting other approaches and seem way more progressive than our own governments in terms of helping people figure this out.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's the flip side, I guess, of flexibility. I think one of the things that sometimes frustrates me as we talk about flexibility is this kind of wholesale good, but actually the flip side of flexibility is you also need some guardrails around where you go next as well. And I think, you know,
00:24:19
Speaker
microcredentials falls into that. But I've certainly seen more appetite around skills profiles and linking those things to pathways through building up of shorter
Stackable Credentials and Learning Structure
00:24:33
Speaker
credentials. And I know a training provider here in the UK who does that.
00:24:37
Speaker
in quite a good way but I've seen that appetite from education institutions kind of better acknowledge that and the ways in which these things could build up into the types of things that you need for a job but that still tends to be focused around certain types of industries like the tech industry I think is a big proponent and maybe that speaks to those kinds of careers and the way that they work
00:25:03
Speaker
But I think, yeah, we're gonna, if we're moving to a more flexible system and micro credentials are part of that, we're gonna also have to think about ways in which we provide guard rails and advising and recommendations and pathways to kind of support the greater choice we give people essentially. Well, don't the, when you talk about stackable certificates leading into a degree,
00:25:29
Speaker
To a large degree, that provides guardrails right there. If you're heading towards this master's, then you have these different credentialed programs, but they stack up and, you know, there's a fairly clearly defined
Marketing Challenges and Awareness
00:25:43
Speaker
path. So I mentioned MicroMasters.
00:25:47
Speaker
I didn't intend to say that was a negative example in terms of what they've done. It was just more of, I think, the coverage of it attaches itself to that too much. It's the hot thing to talk about. But you look at Georgia Tech with their online masters of computer science. If you look at the IMBA at Illinois and you look at some of these things that quite often were MOOC based for getting in there, getting some early micro
00:26:16
Speaker
credentials leading up to a degree, there are several examples there that have been highly successful. I mean, and part of the success might be what you two were just discussing, like guardrails, something to help limit the flexibility or keep the flexibility useful within a certain environment. So I think those have been good. And that might be one of the big reasons. Yeah, and I think with that, Phil, is also the kind of awareness piece as well, like that, Sydney,
00:26:46
Speaker
that potentially is an easier route in for people to understand this movement as a whole, that it's disaggregating
00:26:54
Speaker
know, aspects of a bigger thing that they already understand, because I think there is that piece of which, you know, we talk about micro credentials, we're kind of in that world of discussing and debating and thinking about it. But, you know, so probably a bunch of people, a decent number of people, you say micro credentials to and they're like, what, what's that, you know, so there's kind of that awareness piece. And
00:27:17
Speaker
you know, maybe we'll go on and talk about this, but there's the aspect of it from the institution side of kind of marketing these things, marketing this new product, for want of a better phrase.
00:27:29
Speaker
I think that's a giant challenge there. I was recently interviewing somebody who's worked at several institutions and with a couple of OPMs about marketing and she said, oh, don't tell me to go market your micro credential. I have to spend the same amount marketing that as I do for your degree, but it costs an absolute micro fraction of the amount. So the amount that you're going to get in is much smaller. So I think there's a real challenge.
00:27:53
Speaker
especially as more and more places get in on the act and you're going to have multiple different kinds of things. But I really sympathize with students trying to figure out what's the difference between this thing and that thing. I think it can be hugely confusing to try and figure that out.
00:28:15
Speaker
So can't we put marketing in that same conversation that Neil was mentioning that this is part of a much bigger change and we should expect it to take a long time, how we market for the smaller
Microcredentials vs Degrees: Value for Employers
00:28:28
Speaker
thing. It's a great example you gave, cause you know, it's talking about we're used to marketing for this degree. I know what the degree cost. I know what my budget can be. I've built up the process, you know, and now we're saying, no, it's gotta be a much more nimble, quick type of marketing.
00:28:45
Speaker
And one of the nature of microcredentials, I assume, but I'd love to hear from you guys, is the flexibility over time. Okay, we've done this. We've learned the market needs something slightly different. Let's adjust the program without having as formal of a process for making changes as we learn. So in other words, your universities, colleges are getting into a game where
00:29:09
Speaker
there's that scary word again, we're flexibility, but flexibility over time of defining the programs as part of what we're dealing with. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, in some ways, we're also sort of skirting around an issue here, because we're talking about micro credentials as a way into a degree, or attached to a degree, but a lot of people are talking about it as an alternative to do to a degree, what are we actually talking about there? You know, I listened to a good other podcast last week,
00:29:39
Speaker
And the CEO of Coursera was saying, yes, but it's a degree plus a micro credential. And in some ways, we're just adding to students pain there. And that, in some ways, is not the promise. And it's not that I don't love degree plus credential. I absolutely love that combination. And I wish more places would do it. Because especially as the holder of a political science degree, an actual industry certification would have been handy to get a job at a certain point. But I think
00:30:09
Speaker
it's not always the promise that is put out there as well. Yeah and I think that's an interesting one around I guess essentially sort of the idea that it would replace a degree and I suppose there's a few different factors driving that like affordability but I think another interesting trend I suppose and thing that I see is around
00:30:32
Speaker
maybe the degree holding slightly less currency for employers in terms of recruiting and performance based hiring. So it's always hard to gauge how big a trend that is and how much kind of traction that has
Career Entry and Employer Recognition
00:30:48
Speaker
behind it. But I think that certainly plays into this discussion around
00:30:52
Speaker
you know the micro credential may be being a route to employment in a way that a degree might have been in the past and given you know all of the kind of challenges around affording affording a degree and the cost of it all you can kind of see see the link there I think maybe that's
00:31:12
Speaker
an area that's most likely to be viable around the kind of partnerships that we talked about with industry you know if you have a google certificate way you know that might lead you into something or you have a particular relationship with employer that's kind of recognized then that kind of gives weight to
00:31:32
Speaker
something like a microcredential being a really decent currency in terms of employability for different areas. I suspect that probably if you were going to bet on that, you'd need to do that under the
00:31:48
Speaker
banner of maybe a company partnership i'm not sure it's difficult to say isn't it really i'm interested to hear what you guys think about you know whether that has legs or not or whether you feel that that has legs or not as a genuine alternative into a career
00:32:04
Speaker
Oh, didn't you write about this recently, Morgan, where you had the article talk, the stated goal of some of these big companies sponsoring certificates and them actually employing or students getting real job value out
Quality of Learning in Microcredentials
00:32:20
Speaker
of it. Those are two different things. To me, it doesn't shoot it down, but it's a, it's a issue we're going to have to get over or get through before things get real. But Morgan, probably be worth sharing your, your article again, not the full article, but the gist of it.
00:32:34
Speaker
Yeah, and I was riffing off of a piece in Washington Monthly by Ann Kim, who took a Google certificate and, you know, based on the premise that you could get a job. And she took one in analytics and led it up, you know, not learning a whole lot, and in part because of some of the instructional design issues, I think. But, you know, I think some of the learning is not quite there yet.
00:32:56
Speaker
And I'm finding that I'm in a long term little research trajectory looking at some of these things as well. So I'm actually taking some of these courses. And I'm underwhelmed at the moment, I must say. So I think a lot of work has to be done in terms of making the learning more active and more hands on kinds of things. Because at the moment, they seem to be much more like enrichment opportunities rather than actual skills based kinds of things.
00:33:26
Speaker
I'm interested, Morgan, if you've seen any examples of, because I wonder if we're kind of thinking about this slightly wrong in terms of a microcredential being a kind of a pre-route into a job. But I guess the other way you could think about it in terms of progressive kind of funding is actually a microcredential might get you into a job, but then you take additional microcredentials as you're in that job. And I wondered if you've seen any kind of examples of that kind of thing happening.
00:33:55
Speaker
I have not, but I think that's an interesting kind of thing, or else a micro credential is a way of giving you some of the theoretical background for a job that you're already sort of like, itched your way into, you know, so maybe you've started doing project management, but you've never done a project management certificate. So you then can take the micro credentials as a way of getting some of that language and some of that theory. So I think
00:34:19
Speaker
There are different ways that people can approach it, but certainly I've been frustrated by the way that people are talking about it often as though, oh yeah, you take this and you take the certificate in analytics and next thing you're getting
00:34:37
Speaker
up to your elbows in Tableau with Phil and his data and things like that.
Instructional Design and Engagement
00:34:42
Speaker
And for most of us, that's not going to be true. So I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done on actual learning parts of it, because at the moment, there's a lot of talking heads on video and not a lot of and your basic multiple choice questions and not a lot of learning.
00:35:01
Speaker
And maybe that I'm dumber than the average person, but I like to think not. So, you know, I think there's going to be a lot of, again, it's another source of broken hearts in the space. Well, what I've seen where there is a more thoughtful instructional design comes from more of the at-scale online education providers at Southern New Hampshire's Western Governors, University of Phoenix, where they
00:35:29
Speaker
From the beginning, they don't have the same structures in place that traditional higher ed has necessarily. And they do work with employers, but ironically or not, I think it'd be surprised some people, particularly given our regulatory environment in the US, but some of the strongest instructional design that goes well beyond multiple choice and simple gamification and talking heads or just read this on your own.
00:35:57
Speaker
comes from these at-scale providers. They do a lot of certificate programs, and I think there's some thoughtful design, including project-based design. It's not just take a test. You're going to have a running project throughout this. So you do see it, but that's the area where I see that more thoughtful design.
Ensuring Quality in Microcredential Programs
00:36:18
Speaker
Yeah. And certainly, a place like Coursera has some of those hands-on kinds of things. I just haven't done that.
00:36:24
Speaker
to just put in because I think that kind of gets to maybe something you touched on Morgan right at the start which is um or maybe an avenue that I can go down a little bit it's the idea of quality because I think certainly in the UK there's a
00:36:38
Speaker
there's a sense in which higher education has to own micro-credentials. Otherwise, the quality will be somehow diminished or at risk. And I remember being in a conference where this was essentially kind of communicated, and people who were working for private companies who were developing micro-credentials and doing them, I think, very well. We're slightly put out by what was said that
00:37:06
Speaker
Higher education is really the only the only means by which the quality of these things can be tested and actually everyone else who's doing them, particularly if they're a private organization, you know, runs a higher risk of them being poor quality. And I just, yeah, I don't know that that's
00:37:26
Speaker
the case or that's a very simplistic way of looking at things but I think higher education do want to kind of plant their flag in microcredentials because of the kind of esteem they hold themselves in around quality and look there's lots of good quality stuff out there but it doesn't mean that a company can't create some really good microcredentials for them to be good quality as well but I think that's a dimension of this debate.
Adapting to Competitive Landscape
00:37:51
Speaker
Well it's not directly what you're saying but or
00:37:55
Speaker
I'll let you judge that. I think you're pulling up a really important point, which is this is a space that has long-term demand. We don't know what the models are, but it's one in which post-secondary or higher education
00:38:09
Speaker
has to compete with alternative models, such as purely private companies that don't even involve colleges or universities. So they really need to compete and take some of this ground. And so when you hear colleges and universities wanting to get into this, they're not just competing against other schools. They're competing against other providers and other business models. And we don't know yet what's going to be longest lasting
00:38:38
Speaker
you know, over time. Now, theoretically on paper, I see the argument where higher education institutions with the accreditation, you know, supposedly they don't have any kind of financial incentive or no profit incentive. That's what gets thrown around a lot. Theoretically, there are reasons that it's a public good and therefore higher education institutions should provide quality. But that doesn't mean that it's just a given.
Shadow Education Sector and Microcredentials
00:39:06
Speaker
But that competitive aspect is interesting to me as well. Yeah, to your point around that Phil, I've heard the kind of
00:39:15
Speaker
I've heard it described as a shadow education sector almost, in which you've got platforms, but you also have that whole creator market. And you can totally see, and I see this a little bit myself, in that you have someone who's got a good following, become quite established in a professional area as an individual, offering courses that are aligned to skills. And within their sector or within their community,
00:39:43
Speaker
doing a course through them actually might be valuable to you in terms of perception and and employability but it's a completely different kind of route and different kind of way of doing education than higher education or even some of the big platforms really it's it's much more
00:40:01
Speaker
kind of smaller scale or kind of more niche but you've got you have got that shadow education sector to deal with in this in this domain that's not so well defined so we can bring those things in I guess.
00:40:17
Speaker
unless we're getting precious about how we define things more good.
Future Focus and Institutional Strategies
00:40:25
Speaker
I'll let you get away with that. Just this once, but how many micro-credentials can dance on the head of a pin? We don't want to go down, but how are they likely to change? Phil mentioned more competition and I don't see the role of
00:40:44
Speaker
non education providers, the shadow education sector, subsiding any, you know, I think I think they're going to continue to sort of be there. And, you know, but but but how a micro potential is going to change over time? Do you think you know, what are the changes ahead in the space?
00:41:02
Speaker
Well, this might be aspirational as opposed to a prediction, per se. But I do think that there's enough interest and money being lost, if you will, that we're going to see more and more colleges and universities saying, oh, we do need to pay attention to the plumbing. I mean, you could argue that with, you know, just recently Instructure buying parchment. And part of that was getting into more of the
00:41:31
Speaker
back office and the ability to connect with the registrar. Well, the registrar that gets into the whole catalog and registering systems. So I think that you're going to see more activity realizing you can't just talk about badges and you can't just go with the easy route and people are taking a longer term view of what's going to happen. I realize that I'm probably as much saying this is what colleges and universities need to do.
00:42:00
Speaker
as opposed to they definitely will do that. But I think it's a direction that's gonna have to be made to better serve learners moving forward. Yeah, I think my aspirational prediction here is more things that are not directly tech related. In the bootcamp space, one of the bootcamps I've really sort of been interested in following over the years has been SV Academy, where they take
00:42:29
Speaker
folks who have, say, a humanities degree or something like that and help them become tech salespeople. But, you know, they're specifically aiming not so much at a straight tech degree. And I hope we'll see more micro-credentials in the non-tech kind of space. You just want to revive the political science area. Yes, yes. I want hope for people like I used to be. Yes.
00:42:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting around that kind of thing. I mean, my feeling on micro credentials is that if I can use probably a bad metaphor, I kind of feel like it's a very unkempt garden at the moment. I think over time that, you know, by
00:43:18
Speaker
by kind of, as time goes by, I think that it would become kind of more pruned and I think ultimately what that means in terms of the metaphor is that I just think micro-credentials is such a broad church that I think institutions will have to focus their energy on particular kind of aspects of that. And so I think over time, I don't hold out necessarily great hope that all of the kind of initiatives from quality bodies and national bodies and international bodies
00:43:47
Speaker
around defining micro credentials is going to actually affect anything in terms of all all of us actually understanding what what it is and being on the same page of it but i think in terms of institution activity that will help define it ultimately and i think
00:44:03
Speaker
You know, one of the most compelling things for me is around I wrote about this in relation to Berkeley online around their wedding cake model. I think that's a really compelling component of that you could kind of bracket into micro credentials where you just have
00:44:19
Speaker
you know, shorter routes building into bigger qualifications and in their model online leading to on campus potentially at the top of the wedding cake. So, and that seems to me to make a lot more sense for institutions to tackle. It's kind of just disaggregating what you do and providing different more flexible pathways than doing something completely new.
Patience in Developing Models
00:44:43
Speaker
Yeah. Well, all of our listeners should be reading
00:44:46
Speaker
Neil's blog and so hopefully most of you know this anyway, but you might want to specify we're talking Berkeley lee and not Berkeley ley Yes, we're making a nod to jazz that Morgan mentioned earlier as well. We're wrapping that background again. Yes, I Was still dizzy from the combination of gardens churches and wedding cakes. So Yes
00:45:14
Speaker
So long as I can be Noel Fielding, I'm fine.
00:45:17
Speaker
Yeah. Well, listen, it's interesting. We might be developing probably consistent themes as we go through different areas that are looking at not just what are the innovations or what are the changes, but what's needed to make these things real and how should we view the change process over time. But certainly, I think in all of our estimations, micro credentials are not going away. It's something we'll be dealing with. It really represents
00:45:46
Speaker
the front end or another facing aspect of a major change of education moving beyond the course and the degree and a lot of these structures that have built up a whole set of processes around them. So to a degree, for me, we need to have patience. Not just we as analysts, but also schools need to have patience in this area. To be quite honest, this is a tougher sell, but learners need to at least be aware
00:46:17
Speaker
that a lot of these models haven't been fully proven out. There's a lot of interest, but you're going into new territory, which is exciting. But as we've heard, there's a flip side to that flexibility argument as well. Yeah, thank you very much. And we look forward to meeting with you again next week.