Transcript
Paul Regnier: Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Paul Regner.
Lindsay Franklin: And I'm Lindsay Franklin.
Paul Regnier: And today we are talking about standalone versus series. Which is better? Lindsay, what do you think? Is it better to write a standalone book or do you want to always write in a series?
Lindsay Franklin: always series because that's all I've published. um
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: That's true, but
Paul Regnier: And Lindsay knows, she knows the best way.
Lindsay Franklin: ah no, totally kidding. of it That is all that I have published up to this point. I have um a trilogy out and a duology out, but I have written a standalone before my next one might be a standalone. So I am on board with both of these things. But what about you? What is your opinion on this, Paul?
Paul Regnier: I've done both. I have a few standalones and I've also wrote like a trilogy, a duology. my mystery series My Cozy Mystery series has five books in it.
Paul Regnier: um what What is that?
Lindsay Franklin: Awesome.
Paul Regnier: Quintology? well I don't know. Is there a word for that?
Lindsay Franklin: Quintology. I don't know. You know, my phone always gets salty when I use the word duology. It doesn't think even that is a real word.
Paul Regnier: Oh, really?
Lindsay Franklin: So, i yeah, I feel like trilogy is the only one that is is recognized.
Paul Regnier: That's funny.
Paul Regnier: The only acceptable, you must write three or it doesn't count.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: um Yeah, i I honestly don't even think there's, it's like, yeah, I don't think there's a wrong or right way. And even when I do my standalones, i will I'll tell you this, I always leave room for a series.
Paul Regnier: at the end. i don't I don't completely wrap up everything. I make it like satisfying ending, but then I'm always like, oh, what about that mysterious letter you got from your uncle who seems devious?
Paul Regnier: What is that? ah I'm sure it's okay.
Lindsay Franklin: think
Paul Regnier: you know Or whatever. you know that didn't actually happen in the end of my book, but something like that, something some thread that leaves room for a sequel.
Lindsay Franklin: but Right.
Lindsay Franklin: Some intrigue.
Paul Regnier: and um and i always think like i i was I spoke earlier this year at a writer's conference, um and i had I took questions at the end.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: and Someone asked me, they're like, um like, why do you, um what's like a good benefit of writing a series? Or no, it wasn't that. How did they phrase it?
Paul Regnier: It was something like, why do you think people keep reading a series?
Lindsay Franklin: Mm
Paul Regnier: What is it that keeps them hooked? or Or what are the good tools to do when you're writing a series? And actually I actually had to think for a second. And um and my first thought was like, well, like you create this amazing world, right?
Paul Regnier: And I thought of something like Middle Earth or maybe Hogwarts, like this magical school.
Lindsay Franklin: hmm. Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: And it's like you experienced it a little bit in the first book through an adventure. And then you're like, man, I want to go back there. I want to see more. like What's down those hallways? And I want to... And then the other thing I thought later, and I didn't answer this, but I kind of kicked myself for not, you know, those things when you're like, oh, I should have said this. um But they, right, right.
Lindsay Franklin: That's what the podcast is for. you you don't get to benefit from our, oh, i should have said that moments when we're teaching.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Paul Regnier: right So this is the the the key thing, which is probably even more important that I thought of later that I kicked myself for not answering at the moment. But the characters, you want to spend more time with these characters. You just got to know them and you spent a little time with them and you're like, oh man, these characters are so much fun. Like I want to go on more adventures with them.
Paul Regnier: So that's, to me, that's like, those are two really key things about a series is characters that people want to, you know, see again and a adventure with again.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: And then a setting, some type of setting, they're like, i want to go back there. That was a really fun fantasy world or whatever it is.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: Or if it's sci-fi, ah I want to go back to that planet or back in that rusty spaceship that's just making it, you know, or whatever it is, you know, um, But yeah, those are those are my thoughts.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. yeah
Paul Regnier: Yeah. what do you what are you What's your thoughts?
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, that's really fascinating because I think those two things that you've picked out are definitely key because those apply for both both types of series.
Lindsay Franklin: And by that, I don't mean number of books. I mean, you can have a series that is like one continuous story, essentially. So Hogwarts, you know Harry Potter, that that is that type of story, right?
Lindsay Franklin: Where it's it's kind of one whole overarching plot in in ah that type of a series, or you can have more of that episodic type of series where each book is technically a standalone, but it's the same.
Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: So it's not like one continuous plot thread. So we know it's not always plot that brings people back. Like that is something that can make your series read through really good.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: If you if it is one continuous plot line, if you've got a really solid arc throughout you know the entire course of the series.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: That will keep people reading that specific series, but we know people read or watch other types of series with that more episodic feel where it's not one big story that is being told.
Lindsay Franklin: It is You know, these kind of self-contained um stories instead.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: And you see that in the book world all the time, too, with I'm trying to think it's very much in like the the crime fiction type of, you know, where you have like a detective or something who where you're following that detective from case to case to case.
Lindsay Franklin: And it's not one big overarching thing, but it's that character that readers are coming back to over and over again.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So both of the things that you isolated as why people read series, I think are exactly it because it applies to both types of series. So, yeah.
Paul Regnier: You know, it's interesting, like just as you mentioned that, I was thinking of, um there's a couple shows that that came to mind, but there was this show in the early 2000s called The Mentalist.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: I don't know if you ever saw that, but um he was a mentalist and he helped police solve crimes because he could read people really well.
Lindsay Franklin: heard of it
Paul Regnier: And like, so every episode they would solve a crime. But then there was this overarching thing that applies to like series. So a lot of series and um a lot of like TV series and book series, they have an overarching goal or plot line that they tease.
Paul Regnier: So in this one, he had the serial killer that he was after. like That was the longer plot thread.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: And every once in a while in episode, he'd find another clue that got him one step closer to that serial killer. But meanwhile, every episode, they're solving the immediate case at hand.
Paul Regnier: So like for like a book example, I remember in my Space Drifters trilogy, I had an overarching like villain right like that that was in every book.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: But each book that was sort of like this sub-villain that they that they defeated at the end of that book, And then there was a new one in the sequel, but the overarching thing is like, oh, but we still got that, you know, the big dog out there somewhere and he's pulling the strings.
Paul Regnier: So that's something you could do in a series to have sort of this overarching plot that you're getting closer to. like What was the um ah the fugitive right the Fugitive movie with Harrison Ford in the ninety s It was based on a TV show where this guy was always trying to solve like his wife's murder.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: But each episode he was doing like this smaller thing, but it kept you going through the series because he was always you like, okay, when's he going to like really figure this out? And he's just piecing it together, you know, show by show.
Paul Regnier: So that's a good way I think that series can work.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Absolutely. And if you are writing that more episodic type of series where it is kind of a interconnected string of standalones is kind of how I would describe that, where it's, you know, the same character, same world, um but each story is self-contained.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, right.
Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Television is an excellent place to look at to kind of how how to do that well because of exactly what you're describing. Every episode is its own thing. And you're going to wrap up, you know, the the story, usually, unless it's a two-parter.
Lindsay Franklin: But most of the time, you are wrapping up that particular case or that particular story problem that is happening within that one episode. But the writers are very smart to include some plot elements that are going to span the whole season or the whole show, even.
Lindsay Franklin: You see that sometimes where it's like, the entire premise of the show is about that one villain or solving that one crime or whatever it is. So that's a really smart thing to do because then you are getting all three of the things we've talked about so far, working in your favor to pull the viewer or reader in with you and continue to join you for the next episode, join you for the next book, you know, to continue on with the series because then you've got a character they care about and want to follow.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Regnier: down
Lindsay Franklin: You've got a world they want to go back to, and you are having the overarching kind of plot momentum working for you as well as they they go episode to episode noodling through that bigger problem that they're trying to solve.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: um So it's a really great thing to do, even if your your series is kind of more of those self-contained standalones that are tied together. It's a very smart thing to do to have that overarching plot.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. What was Harry Potter? Like every Harry Potter book is like, oh, we defeated Voldemort at the end. Oh, wait, his spirit got away.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: He's going to reform into the next sequel.
Lindsay Franklin: yeah Right.
Paul Regnier: So that was an ongoing, but they kind of solved each book, solved whatever the current dilemma was, you know, um it's interesting i was thinking like there's a couple different reasons why you write a series and one of them could be sort of the artistic reason which is like you've created this world like i'll i'll use tolkien as an example for this right like he loved middle earth and in his creative mind he just wanted to like live there
Lindsay Franklin: Exactly. Right.
Lindsay Franklin: Right. right
Paul Regnier: for you know years and years as he developed elven languages and stuff.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh my gosh.
Paul Regnier: and like so much like He poured so much into this world.
Lindsay Franklin: and
Paul Regnier: So that's the artistic side of it, right like just and and which is great. you know it It can you know end up being in a very rich world that feels like so lived in and like, oh my gosh, there's so much history and culture here and And like everyone seems so grounded in their own, like this elven culture and this dwarven culture and everything's so distinct.
Paul Regnier: Those details can be like amazing. but but so that's the But then on the marketing side of things, if you want to talk about the business side, it's great to do a series because then like um if you have...
Paul Regnier: like Not only is it like you're not creating a new world every time, right? So maybe it's a little bit less work for you if you created this world you already like, and then you can just write book after book in there.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: So it could be it could be an easier thing not to reinvent the wheel every time you write a new book. um But the other thing is too, then like if someone loves that, they read through the whole thing.
Paul Regnier: And that could be pretty awesome. And then you can even run, there's different promotions you can run on the first book where you can drop it down to like 99 cents or free. And then you hook them with that first one and then they'll be like, oh, love that. So now I'm going pay full price for you know the next couple of books.
Paul Regnier: um So there's both.
Lindsay Franklin: you
Paul Regnier: I think there's like good things on both sides of that.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, absolutely. there's definitely There's definitely some reader psychology involved with trying to decide you know if you're going to do a series or a standalone or the benefits of each or even the timing of each because at certain points in your career, it might make more sense to do a series or, you know, it might make more sense to do a standalone.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: So there's definitely those kinds of considerations. But certainly if you have like a Tolkien sized world, or if you have a Brandon Sanderson sized world, I am, I am a few hours away from finishing book three in like the miss, the original Mistborn trilogy.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: So i What's even called? The final? Oh my gosh, I don't know. This is so bad of me because I've been listening to it on audiobooks, so I haven't like seen all of the terms and the like looked at the cover, I know.
Paul Regnier: Looked at the cover. ah
Lindsay Franklin: But everybody calls it Mistborn, so I can't think of what the actual like name of the series is, Final Empire or Last Kingdom or whatever it is.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: But ah you know it's that series. And each of these audiobooks has been, i think, 29 hours long.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: um And there's three of them, and this is like one story.
Paul Regnier: Wow.
Lindsay Franklin: And so a story of that size, like it just that's never going to be able to fit in a standalone novel. He needed to have three very long books to be able to explore the world that he was trying to explore and tell the complexity of the story that he was trying to tell.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: So I think you never.
Paul Regnier: Did that, oh, sorry to interrupt you.
Lindsay Franklin: yeah go ahead.
Paul Regnier: Did that narrator do all the books, that same narrator?
Lindsay Franklin: You're good.
Lindsay Franklin: Same narrator.
Paul Regnier: Because I listened to the first one.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Same narrator for all three, at least the version I'm listening to.
Paul Regnier: Okay. He was like one of the best audiobook narrators I've ever heard.
Lindsay Franklin: I wouldn't be, you know, he's amazing.
Paul Regnier: Like that guy was incredible. he could He was like the man with a thousand voices.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: Like he did like a distinct voice for each character.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: I'm like, who is this guy?
Lindsay Franklin: He did.
Paul Regnier: This guy belongs like doing Shakespeare or something.
Lindsay Franklin: amazing and one of the voices he does for one of the characters sounds so much like uh john reese davies to me um and i'll get like yes every time he comes on i'm like oh gimley uh yeah but it's just he is absolutely incredible i have caught i will say on book three i want to say two instances where he accidentally did the wrong voice for the character.
Paul Regnier: Oh, yeah. Gimli?
Paul Regnier: Oh, that's funny.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, he like accidentally did the ah ah
Paul Regnier: How do you keep all that straight anyway? so these There's so many characters in that book. Oh, my gosh.
Lindsay Franklin: so many. And I was like, oh, that's weird. That that line just came out in you know ah the wrong voice. But yeah, it's he is absolutely amazing. But yeah, a story of that scope is just, it's not going to fit in a standalone novel.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And you don't want to sell yourself short creatively if that is the kind of world that's in your head or story that's in your head.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: give it the space that it needs, right?
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: you You don't want to um you know to chop something up or try to condense it down when it doesn't need to be that. You also don't want to fluff something out if you can make it.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: you know If it really is a story that is smaller or more self-contained or maybe one that like you could tell this story and leave what we call series potential, which is what you were talking about before.
Lindsay Franklin: You like leave that little one thread undone or just you leave the door open for a series.
Paul Regnier: yeah
Lindsay Franklin: That is series potential. And, ah you know, you don't want to fluff something like that out into three books or two books just because everything's supposed to be a series if the story really can fit into just one novel because we have seen what happens when writers try to do that with, I'm sorry, but The Hobbit movies.
Paul Regnier: right
Lindsay Franklin: When you take The Hobbit, which is the perfect book, right?
Paul Regnier: That's a good example.
Lindsay Franklin: The Hobbit is the perfect book.
Paul Regnier: Right. The perfect book.
Lindsay Franklin: And it's and it is pretty short. like that's ah That's a pretty fast read.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And then you try to bake that into three two-hour long movies, then you get you get The Hobbit movies.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Greedy. Greedy.
Lindsay Franklin: And they're
Paul Regnier: Just make one good movie. Come on.
Lindsay Franklin: Right? Right? One really good. It would have been such a good movie. Anyways, I digress.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: I shouldn't go off about that.
Paul Regnier: No, I'm with you on that one.
Lindsay Franklin: but
Paul Regnier: were it Was it you that were telling me one of the one of the books you wrote was, the first one was really long and then you ended up splitting it into two?
Lindsay Franklin: oh
Paul Regnier: So it was like a first book and a second book? Am I confusing
Lindsay Franklin: No. My, you might be,
Paul Regnier: Oh, okay. Someone was just telling me about that.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: and they But that's another way it could happen. like Let's say you're writing in this book and you really love the story, but all of a sudden you've just gone past 100,000 words and you're like, okay, this is getting a little weighty.
Paul Regnier: um Sometimes you can just split that into two books, you know make it a series or three, you know who knows if you want to keep writing.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: But yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Right. And I think also having a really good, solid, innate understanding of story structure is going to help you answer those questions.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, right.
Lindsay Franklin: like um Even if you are a drafter, discovery writer, and you're not um necessarily seeing all of that at the outset, but you like write the draft or you get, you know, halfway through the draft and it's already 100,000 words or something.
Lindsay Franklin: um The structure piece is how you can determine if you just are overwriting and you just have too many words.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Because just just because we wrote 100,000 words mean
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: doesn't mean that it is that those shouldn't be 50,000 words if you if you get what I mean.
Paul Regnier: Right. Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Like it could be that a lot of it is fluff. But if you wrote 100,000 words and that actually is just half the story, Well, you might have a whole series that you're trying to write the entire arc of the series there.
Lindsay Franklin: So you have to ah it structure really answers the question, in my opinion, of whether or not you have overwritten something and it's wordy and that's why it's so many words or if you truly are telling a story that is too too big for one book and it needs multiple books.
Paul Regnier: who
Paul Regnier: And it's good to know, like depending on what sub-genre you're writing for, what category on Amazon, like what are those other books, especially like the bestsellers, what's their typical word count?
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: right so Because then the readership is expecting a similar word count.
Lindsay Franklin: Right.
Paul Regnier: like You don't have to be perfect, but you should be, like if the typical word count is 50,000 to 60,000 words, and then you're writing 120, it's probably not going to do very well.
Lindsay Franklin: Right. Right. de
Paul Regnier: People are going to go, what in the world? This just keeps going on and on. So yeah, that's another thing to keep in mind.
Lindsay Franklin: right
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, super important.
Paul Regnier: Know your audience.
Lindsay Franklin: Know your audience. Yes, because, you know, that's true. so The genre conventions for some genres is like, you know, 50,000 words is considered a complete novel.
Lindsay Franklin: Whereas in the fantasy genre, that's even YA fantasy is always longer than that. um You know, very...
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Especially epic fantasy, usually long.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, epic fantasy is like a whole other thing. These Sanderson books are like, I think they're, i oh my gosh, I think they're each over 200,000 words.
Paul Regnier: Right door stops.
Lindsay Franklin: um
Paul Regnier: Oh, good grief.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes, and so and then there's three of them, and this is all one story.
Paul Regnier: That's so much. Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: This is one overarching plot. So it's, and you know, there's not, is there some fluff in there? Maybe like if I were to take my line editor hat, uh, you know, to, to this experience, is there stuff that like could be cut?
Paul Regnier: yeah
Lindsay Franklin: Sure. But when I kind of think about the storylines, I don't really think there's a ton of fluff in there. It's all, it all feeds to the central story that he's telling.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: so that is just how that genre is. And readers of that, they eat that up.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: They love it. They love these super complicated, rich stories.
Paul Regnier: Sure.
Lindsay Franklin: So you don't need to you know trim that down or or cut it or try to make it smaller than what it is just because you know that is like a massively long book for even some fantasy readers who are used to reading 100,000 word novel.
Lindsay Franklin: that's that's pretty. i feel like between 90 to maybe like 110 is is like very typical for YA fantasy, maybe even up to 120, you know, up there.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: um So 200,000 words to somebody who only reads that other kind of fantasy is going to feel really long. But but for the epic fantasy readers, that's that's what they want.
Paul Regnier: bright
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: I will say another thing for me too is ah um I get inspired by a new idea and then I'll just start writing it. And I won't, again, I'm not a plotter, so I'll just kind of discovery right my way through.
Paul Regnier: And then by the time I'm at the end, I'll kind of know like, is this exciting and interesting enough to turn into a series? Now, sometimes I'm like, you know i could, um you know I definitely could.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: and and ah And again, I usually leave room for that. But at that point, if I'm not like completely 100% sold on this has to be a series, if I'm like, you know this could be a standalone and I'd be completely happy and satisfied with that,
Paul Regnier: that's where I sort of let the market let me know. you know So if it gets like really great sales and it does really well, I'm like, okay, I'm writing a sequel. you I let the market speak to me and tell me because I might think like, oh, this is like the greatest thing that I've ever put out there.
Lindsay Franklin: but
Paul Regnier: And then like the sales are mediocre. I'm like, okay, I guess I am the only one that likes this. um It's hard to know, right?
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: You think you know it's yours.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. m
Paul Regnier: So you're like, oh, my precious little child that I wrote. um But ah it's it's good to pay attention to what your readers are, how they're responding. And sometimes it it surprises me.
Paul Regnier: um I've written two, like my latest ones are two middle grade fantasy books. And I actually thought my second one, the pet shop one, was going to be the more interesting one.
Paul Regnier: Like I liked them both, but I thought like, oh, this one kind of has, I can see where it would have more potential. the The first one, the Agency of Magic Mythical Creatures, way outsold that one.
Paul Regnier: So I'm like, okay, okay, well, that's cool.
Lindsay Franklin: Wow.
Lindsay Franklin: The readers have spoken. the readers have spoken.
Paul Regnier: The readers have spoken. Exactly. So I'm like, I was, and I was writing, i was starting to write a sequel for the pet shop when like, okay, go back to agency.
Lindsay Franklin: ah ah pivot Awesome.
Paul Regnier: I'm writing the sequel for that one. And that one's, yeah. So that one's done. It's currently being edited. So hopefully I'll publish that in a couple of months. But I think that's good. You let your readers respond.
Paul Regnier: You let your readers tell you like, this is what I want more of. And it's like, okay. And then it's like that two-way street and it's like that communication kind of thing going on.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: So, um again, i always leave room for the sequel, but I kind of let the market tell me, like, this is what we want more of.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: I'm like, okay, here it comes. It's like a chef, right?
Lindsay Franklin: ah ha ah We're gonna go on that.
Paul Regnier: Like, like which which one of my meals are people buying a lot of? Okay, let's make more of that.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. And that's, it's really a smart thing to do, though. And I have found that readers will, they will straight up say it in reviews and stuff, too. Or, you know, people will ask me sometimes, like, well are you going to write more in the the Weaver trilogy world?
Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: And you know, I'll go, oh, well, I could, you know, i I'm always kind of that it's a delightful thing to hear because they want to go back, they want to go back.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Sure. Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And that, that particular story I was telling was, you know, done, but I could go back in time and tell some stories from, you know, before those events occurred, I could write what comes next, you know, maybe 20 years ah down the road from where that story ended.
Paul Regnier: Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: So um it it is important to listen to our readers and kind of gauge what type of interest is out there and what they might want to see more of. um Because certainly you alluded to this before, where if you've spent the time building a world, you know you've done all of that world building stuff, you've you've established those characters and and all of that, you've put all that effort in and then you know either completed a standalone or a series
Paul Regnier: True.
Lindsay Franklin: and readers tell you in whatever type of way, we want more of this, you have done half of the work already in establishing the world and the characters and finding an audience that is interested in that space.
Paul Regnier: true
Lindsay Franklin: um So you might as well, if you've got the time and the creative inclination to do it, you might as well, because, you know, so it's like it's halfway there for you already.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: yeah.
Paul Regnier: It's funny when you say that, it makes it sound like the sequel is going to be way easier than the first one.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: And I found it's way harder.
Lindsay Franklin: It's It's not. it's not it's Oh, man, I know why it is.
Paul Regnier: It's way harder. Why is that? Oh man.
Lindsay Franklin: it is because that first book is like, kind of what made the idea grow or sparked the idea in the first place. And so it's it's clearer.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And then when you sit down to try to figure out, okay, what comes next and what needs to flow out of that. I feel like that's, it's more work plot wise. So it's like the world building and a lot of the character work and all of that is kind of done and established.
Lindsay Franklin: It's established at least, but figuring out the plot for subsequent books is always harder for me personally. So I feel that I feel that.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, me too. Yeah, it's it's weird.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, yeah.
Paul Regnier: Because so I think maybe some of it is like that whole like origin story, because ah I'm a sucker for like origin stories.
Lindsay Franklin: yes
Paul Regnier: And once that first book is done, like that origin story is gone. And it's like, okay, we're here now. What are we going to do?
Lindsay Franklin: it
Paul Regnier: And it's like, uh-oh. But you know at certain certain books and and movies and stuff have done it well. But i mean think of it. Think of the movies out there. like The sequel is usually not as good as the first movie.
Lindsay Franklin: That's the thing.
Paul Regnier: That happens so often, like probably 90%, I would think.
Lindsay Franklin: Okay. You know what? Yeah. Yep, it is. And so let's talk about that a little bit.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Let's talk about that because that is a thing with sequels or especially in a trilogy, it's always like book two or movie two that people are like, you know, ah and you know, right?
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: What happened? ah
Lindsay Franklin: What happened? And then maybe book three or movie three kind of brings it back home again or whatever. so why does this happen?
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And I think that the answer is because what if you're going to do a series really well um and and you don't have to do all of this in your head ahead of time.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So I'm not this is not me completely ah flipping my stance on this and saying everybody must become a plotter. That's not what I'm trying to say at all. I will never say that because I don't believe that.
Paul Regnier: Don't do it, Lindsay. Don't you dare. ah
Lindsay Franklin: don't believe it, guys. um But if you ah if you know you're going to be writing a series. Okay. So this is a little different from what we were just talking about where you leave the potential open and kind of feel out your market.
Lindsay Franklin: This is like, you're going in knowing that this is going to be like a three book series and not episodic. I'm talking about the one where you are like telling one story with an overarching, you know, big picture thing.
Lindsay Franklin: You kind of need to think about your structure for the series in the exact same way we think about our structure for each individual book. So if you're
Paul Regnier: I've heard that.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. If you're using like the three-act structure, you've got, you know, three-act structure within book one, three-act structure within book two, a three-act structure within book three, but you've also got a three-act structure that is over the entire series.
Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: So I think what happens a lot is with that middle piece, we hear a lot about the sagging middle, you know, with um with books, like just within one book where we're telling one three-act story.
Lindsay Franklin: The middle is kind of the hardest part sometimes to make exciting and to keep the tension up, to keep the momentum going.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And so I think that's what happens with book twos and movie twos, where it is the middle part of the overall arc. And so if if it's not really well done, it can feel boring or feel like it doesn't give you the excitement of a beginning or the payoff of of an of an end.
Lindsay Franklin: And so you really have to be careful in the way that that is crafted and make sure that you're ending in the right spot. I think that that's kind of the the secret.
Lindsay Franklin: And what I would so love to do is just like read a bunch of book twos, watch a bunch of movie twos and figure out, okay, which ones of these are really good and which ones are lacking and don't give you that sense of satisfaction and what is the difference between them.
Lindsay Franklin: But I think it is that the ones that feel satisfying, they're ending it in the right spot with enough to kind of propel you into movie three. Like there's enough intrigue and like plot momentum and just story momentum to propel you into movie three.
Lindsay Franklin: And it doesn't just feel like it's filler. It feels like it's exciting all on its own. And so it's just it's a complex thing to do. And I think even really great storytellers and people working at, you know, these like high level Hollywood studios or whatever for for on the movie side don't always get it right.
Lindsay Franklin: And that middle movie will kind of feel flat compared to the rest of the series. So it is definitely.
Paul Regnier: Well, i have I have a couple of ah um ideas that came to mind that are examples of what I think works and what doesn't.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, go ahead.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, good. Oh, perfect. yeah
Paul Regnier: So ah back in the let's... um
Lindsay Franklin: The before times.
Paul Regnier: let's
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: Back to yesteryear, it was a movie called Back to the Future.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: Very popular movie.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: Most people have seen it, I think. um Great movie. I loved it. I just thought that was it was one of my favorite movies for a long time.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: um And I was so looking forward to because this was one of the rare things where at the end of of the movie, it said, to be continued.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: i've never i don't think I've seen that since on a movie. It's so funny to see that. It's like, what is this, a TV show? um So... ah I was really excited about the the next movie.
Paul Regnier: And then I saw the next movie and I was not excited anymore because I did not like Back to the Future 2. Even though I had some fun stuff, fun futurist futuristic 2015.
Lindsay Franklin: Sure.
Paul Regnier: Now that's the past.
Lindsay Franklin: ah Oh my gosh.
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: That's terrifying.
Paul Regnier: there Did you know there was flying cars in 2015? I missed it.
Lindsay Franklin: i i missed it. Aw.
Paul Regnier: I did too. So anyways, I was disappointed. And I think the reason I was disappointed is because in a lot of ways, it was just a rehashing of the first movie.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: He kept going to scenes from the first movie and like alongside. So this one was going alongside the first. And I'm like, you're just stealing the goodness from the first one and trying to like you know use that nostalgia to make me think I'm watching a great movie again.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: like You cheaters, I see through your tricks.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: um So to me, that's why that was at least that's one of the reasons why that one didn't really work for me.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: I thought, like oh, that was a letdown.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Oh,
Paul Regnier: Now, a good one, i think, was Empire Strikes Back for Star Wars.
Lindsay Franklin: ah yes.
Paul Regnier: And i the the giveaway for why it worked is in the title, The Empire Strikes Back.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: you know In the first one, they kind of got this big victory over this you know overarching empire that's just controlling everything.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: you know This scrappy band of rebels were able to you know blow up their main weapon. It's like, yeah, it's awesome. So in the second one, how do you follow that up? right the second one, the empire struck back.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: Suddenly, you know everything's not like roses and rainbows anymore.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: It's like the empire is still there and it still wields a lot of power. And everyone gets pretty messed up. All our heroes get pretty messed up. like
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: Han's on the run and they're hiding in craters that are actually big space worms. And then and then what happens at the end? Luke gets his hand cut off. He finds out Darth Vader says, Father, what?
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: This is the worst thing ever.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: Han gets frozen in carbonite. It's like, oh no. But that really set it up for the last one. It's like, okay, you can't possibly end this story like this.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm
Paul Regnier: This is a terrible ending. you know this is all Everything's on a downer.
Lindsay Franklin: hmm. Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: Please redeem these heroes. Let them. So I thought they were very clever in how they did that trilogy.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: um
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: But yeah, they just presented something new. So there you go. There's my example of something good, a good sequel and a bad one.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. Love it. I love these two examples. Okay. We're going to analyze a little bit more um with these.
Paul Regnier: Okay.
Lindsay Franklin: And I'm going to start with Star Wars because that it's such a good example. Because for a lot of people, they say Episode 5, Empire Strikes Back, is actually like the best of
Paul Regnier: Agreed. Agreed.
Lindsay Franklin: you know, and so of any of them.
Paul Regnier: Of any of them.
Lindsay Franklin: And so that's a great example to use.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And I think they successfully achieved exactly what we're talking talking about. So think about what a successful act two is supposed to do in your story, and which we as storytellers so often, I don't want to say fail at that, that sounds really harsh, but we we maybe don't do it as well.
Lindsay Franklin: We don't execute as well as we could. And we end up with that sagging middle. But what it is supposed to be is not just filler to get you to the end. It is supposed to be ratcheting up the tension.
Lindsay Franklin: And I think it's James Scott Bell who describes it as like chasing your main character up a tree and then you start throwing rocks at him. You know, it's like it's just that escalation of tension and stakes.
Paul Regnier: Then you set fire to the tree. and
Lindsay Franklin: Then he set fire to the tree and Luke gets his hand cut off and, you know, finds out his ancestry DNA results. And it's just so everything is all awful. It's all awful. Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: But that they so successfully did that. They ratcheted up the tension. They got our heroes into some really bad situations and they... made They raised the stakes higher.
Lindsay Franklin: like They did everything that a good act two is supposed to do. They did that. And when you think about, like the like I almost said the first episode.
Paul Regnier: Mm, it's true.
Lindsay Franklin: That's not what I'm talking about. Episode four. So you think about A New Hope. um And if you go from where that one ended... to where episode six, right?
Lindsay Franklin: So the third movie where that one, Return the Jedi, yes, where that one begins, you can't just skip that middle movie.
Paul Regnier: Return of the Jedi.
Lindsay Franklin: Like you have to have watched Empire Strikes Back to understand how we got from the end of one to the start of three.
Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: And that's not always true, even on series I love, like I love the Lord of the Rings movies.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: um i I love them. and i when I watch them, I watch them all. I watch them all three in a row, just like one continuous thing.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: I love them. um But there is something, there's some truth to the idea that you could almost like skip movie two or like maybe you watch it on fast forward and you could still understand what has happened in the story and how we got to where we are when we start movie three.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: So it's just kind of one thing.
Paul Regnier: Because it's almost like one spread out book. Well, it was originally one written as one book, wasn't it? Like just one thick book? Do I have that right?
Lindsay Franklin: I don't know.
Paul Regnier: OK.
Lindsay Franklin: i don't know about that.
Paul Regnier: Anyways.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. I mean, yeah, minus three, but I don't know. So I feel like it kind it suffers a little bit, not as badly as Back to the Future, because I agree with you on that as well. And so that's not me throwing shade at Lord of the Rings because I love it.
Lindsay Franklin: It's one of my favorite movie series, but but it it suffers from that a little bit.
Paul Regnier: Right. Right.
Lindsay Franklin: It did not execute that middle part of the story as well as what Star Wars did, in my opinion.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: um
Paul Regnier: And wouldn't the ending even be considered, what what do they call it in, um, before the third act, they call it the dark night of the soul.
Lindsay Franklin: But you, yeah.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: yeah.
Paul Regnier: So wouldn't that be like the end of empire is like after all these things happened, it's like the dark night of the soul, you know?
Lindsay Franklin: yep
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. And you're building the, what you're trying to do with that in your, your plot is you are trying to build that feeling of arc, that sense of arc where it's story momentum is what I call that.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: You know, you're building that momentum and building and building and building. And so you don't want to have this kind of flat or even like a really just sort of subtle, gradual incline. Like you want this to be ratcheting up and building and building And then you get to that that ah whatever.
Lindsay Franklin: that There's so many different words or terms for that like final doorway or whatever that's propelling you into act three.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: But yeah, that's when all everything is supposed to feel kind of its most hopeless. And um your readers should be worried for how this is all going to resolve.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And um that that sense should be there in that kind of movie two or book two space.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. All hope is lost.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes, yes. It should be a part of the story that has a lot of that momentum that's going to propel you all the way to the end and make it feel super satisfying. And so, um yes, Back to the Future did not accomplish this.
Lindsay Franklin: um Great first movie.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And it's so funny that that you thought of that one, because as I was thinking back, that's that's, of course, a series that my sister and I grew up with as 80s kids. And we would watch movie one and skip movie two and then watch movie three.
Lindsay Franklin: And we movie two was like fun, like you said, for some of the futuristic stuff. And as 80s kids, it was just so cool with all the, you know, flying cars and everything.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Right.
Lindsay Franklin: But especially as we got older, like I haven't watched that one in a very long time.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: um And I don't I don't really know if movie three holds up as excellent storytelling, but they did not repeat that mistake that they made with movie two of trying to like retell the same story or, you know, just repeat really what they did.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Paul Regnier: Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: It was its own thing.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And, you know, even if I haven't seen it for a long time, so I couldn't say like if it holds up or anything, but as a kid watching it kind of does.
Paul Regnier: it It kind of does. the first one The first one definitely is still the best.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. I enjoyed it. yeah
Paul Regnier: you know I just thought of and another example, and they did it in a tricky way.
Lindsay Franklin: First one's amazing. Yeah.
Paul Regnier: The first movie, Alien, was, and I can't remember if that was a book first before it became a movie, but it was more of a um like a slow suspense story.
Lindsay Franklin: Sure.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: it was suspense and suspense slash horror, I guess you would call it. Um, but then when they came out with aliens, the sequel, this was just action adventure, shoot them up space Marine, you know, goodness. But so it, but it worked and it was almost, I mean, I think both are, are good for what they are.
Paul Regnier: Um, again, not for everybody because it it can be a little gory and scary, but, um, But they almost switched it into a different genre, but it still kind of had the same feel.
Lindsay Franklin: Interesting.
Lindsay Franklin: Interesting.
Paul Regnier: It was still space, and you're still dealing with these aliens, and Ripley, the main character, is still there. But but yeah, like they just almost just like, OK, we're going to do this in a different genre, so it'll feel new and fresh.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Paul Regnier: And that really worked, I thought. So that's maybe another way to switch it.
Lindsay Franklin: That's fascinating.
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, my goodness. And that's very, that is so interesting and and very risky. I have to admit that I, it's so risky.
Paul Regnier: That is risky. I was going to say that too. It's very risky move, but it worked.
Lindsay Franklin: It's so risky. so risky. um I watched Alien, the original one, for the first time just within the last like few years.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And so um that's the only one I've ever seen. So I can't,
Paul Regnier: And you still have nightmares. Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: ah No, and actually, I really, I'm not a i'm not a ah horror genre person, um really, but I love suspense and I love sci-fi.
Paul Regnier: yeah
Lindsay Franklin: And one of my sons really loves horror movies. And so that's why I watched it recently for the first time.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, great suspense.
Lindsay Franklin: He was like, mom, let's watch it. Like, okay, let's do it. And um I really enjoyed it because it is a great suspense movie and it it takes place in you know sci-fi settings. So I was here for it, even though I'm not really ah a horror girly myself.
Lindsay Franklin: But um yeah.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, me neither. Me neither.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. So it's the, with the second movie, I would be really interested to see if I would like it as well, because I think that that suspense feel is probably like, I haven't seen the second one.
Paul Regnier: you haven't seen You haven't seen Aliens? Oh, you have to see it.
Lindsay Franklin: ah So it'd be interesting though. Like, I wonder if I am the target audience for both of them, if they're kind of in different genres, I enjoyed the first and I wonder if the second would hit for me.
Paul Regnier: m
Lindsay Franklin: So um yeah.
Paul Regnier: Did you like Edge of Tomorrow with Tom Cruise?
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: I don't know if I've, I don't think I've seen that one either.
Paul Regnier: Oh my gosh. OK, you have to see that one even more than you have to see it.
Lindsay Franklin: okay I'm going to write it down. ah
Paul Regnier: and You haven't seen Edge of Tomorrow?
Lindsay Franklin: I don't think so. Edge of tomorrow.
Paul Regnier: Okay, have you seen you've seen Groundhog Day, right?
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, yes. Yes.
Paul Regnier: Okay, so Edge of Tomorrow takes that concept, but in a sci-fi action-adventure direction.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, fun.
Paul Regnier: like But it's, oh my gosh, it's so good. I don't even want to tell you anything because you need to go into it fresh with no spoilers.
Lindsay Franklin: ah All right.
Lindsay Franklin: I wrote it down.
Paul Regnier: ah Yeah, Tom Cruise, Emily Blunt. um It's so good. One of my favorite science fiction movies ever.
Lindsay Franklin: Awesome. All right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: I'm going to watch it. I'm going to watch it.
Paul Regnier: Oh, we should do our top movies one of these.
Lindsay Franklin: So that's that is... ah
Paul Regnier: That would be a good episode, like our favorite movies and what kind of writing lessons it could teach.
Lindsay Franklin: you go Yes. Yes. i have a whole I have a whole watch list of of things that are like that I need to watch for quilling it, you guys.
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: like I have a whole watch list.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So yeah, we definitely need to do that.
Paul Regnier: Put Edge of Tomorrow at the top.
Lindsay Franklin: It's, it's, I put a star it's on my list and there's a star on it.
Paul Regnier: That one, good. That is a must watch.
Lindsay Franklin: That's so funny, but that is, it does kind of highlight the risk of doing something like that, where you might end up with a reader or a viewer like me, who the first one hits for, but the second one really doesn't because of the genre switch.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yeah. And now that you say that, I would never recommend that to anyone anyone with a book series, but but gosh, that really worked for that that movie series.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: But it worked. but Yeah.
Paul Regnier: So it's weird. It's hard to argue with results. I guess you'd really have to analyze and be skilled at what you're doing to know, you know, it's switching a little bit, but I know it's going to work, you know?
Lindsay Franklin: who
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. And I think it makes sense thinking about it more um with that particular franchise, because I think it's probably going to be pretty rare that you have somebody like me, not that I'm like a unicorn or something, but I just think that most people who are sci-fi watchers are are going to love the kind of more action-y type of thing.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, that's good call.
Lindsay Franklin: and i And I might be, like, I might love it too.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: I'm i'm not sure um if I will, because when a movie is like, too not too action heavy, but when it's like, that is kind of, how am I trying to phrase this?
Lindsay Franklin: Sort of all that's propelling it along, then I'm not necessarily as dialed in as something that is more suspenseful.
Paul Regnier: the
Lindsay Franklin: But it can be both.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: You can do action and have it be, yeah,
Paul Regnier: That one is, the Aliens is both.
Lindsay Franklin: And so maybe that's that's what it, that may be why it works.
Paul Regnier: It has suspense and action adventure. Yeah. And some great taglines, you know, game over, man. I mean, come on.
Lindsay Franklin: that That may be why they pulled it off is because they brought enough forward from what viewers would love from the first one.
Paul Regnier: Probably lot of fans from the first. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. And then kind of, but they just ratcheted up the action adventure factor to make it feel exciting and new. So maybe that's the sweet spot. We we figured it out in real time, but how to do it, do it that way and execute that strategy for your your book too.
Paul Regnier: Maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul Regnier: yeah
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, that's awesome.
Paul Regnier: So I will, one other thing I would say about like a good thing for c series to have on the promotional side of things. And I think I i kind of mentioned this, but i'll I'll just mention, I did what's called promo stacking recently with my cozy mystery series.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: And I have five books in that series. And um so what you do in this is you drop that first book in the series down to either 99 cents or free. And i had listened to a podcast that talked about it and they were they said, go for the free. And I'd always done 99 cents before, but this time I'm like, all right, I'll try the free. And then you submit to a couple different like discount sites. like There's like Free Booksy and Fussy Librarian and you know Book Barbarian. There's a bunch of them.
Paul Regnier: um And so, but and you pick specific dates. So let's say if you're on Amazon and you're doing like their free thing that lasts like I think a week, um then you pick different days. So like one of the ones I did was through BookBub did like has this new free ones. It's not their feature deal, but it's kind of like a step below for free books.
Paul Regnier: um So I did that like on one of the days. And then but before that I did one of like, I think it was free booksy. And then after it, I did another. So it's like, I did like four days where it's like each day a different um promotional, it was on a different promotional site.
Paul Regnier: Cause they say you don't wanna pack it all on the same day. Cause then you'll get this big spike and then nothing. So, and then Amazon's like, what is this?
Lindsay Franklin: who
Paul Regnier: You know, this is nothing.
Lindsay Franklin: The algorithm likes this better.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, the algorithm just kicks it to the curb. so But if you do, if you spread it out and then you have sort of that tail, longer tail of sales, then it's like, oh okay, this is doing pretty good. Like, let's you know promote this or whatever. um But that worked out really good. And I just did this recently. And then So even though I gave that free one away and it was a bunch of free downloads and you think like, I don't want to give away my books for free. But then people were reading through and buying the other four books in the series. So that really kind of sparked a lot of sales, a lot of page reads, and I made back the money I spent on you the promotion and then got profit after that. So that's another good reason to write a series is you can do really cool promotional things like that. That gets your stuff out there. Things you can't do that wouldn't have worked with a standalone.
Paul Regnier: Um, and even with the duology, it would have been a little more tricky, I think, but like if you have a trilogy or more, that kind of promotion can really be effective.
Lindsay Franklin: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes, absolutely. That's such a smart a smart thing to do. because if you are and And again, it can be scary to talk about doing ah you know a free promo or or I've even seen some authors where they will like give away a book one in a series as like a newsletter sign-up incentive or something like that.
Paul Regnier: who
Paul Regnier: who
Lindsay Franklin: and then lead that into kind of the sales funnel, um you know, for the rest of the series.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: But, and and that does feel scary because, oh my gosh, a whole book, like giving away an entire book, we know how long they take to write.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: It's such an investment.
Paul Regnier: Sure.
Lindsay Franklin: But the idea is casting really wonderful, wide net with that and really trying to get a lot of new people who are willing to take a chance on you and people are willing to take a chance when it's free because then the only thing they are risking or investing is their time and so if they don't love it um they just move on and that's fine ah but if they do love it you have found new reader they are likely to go check out the rest of the series.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: And then if they really love you, they're going to check out your backlist. So that's a really smart strategy to use, especially when you have like a significant catalog built up um that you can direct people to.
Lindsay Franklin: um It might not be a good strategy if all you have out there is your debut novel and like maybe the series is the second book is releasing next year or something you're going to want to do other marketing strategies but once you've got a whole series out there and maybe even ah a few other titles or a few other series really smart smart thing to do
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: And if you don't want to give away a full book for a newsletter signup, you could always do those reader magnets like the novella or a short story.
Lindsay Franklin: yes yep
Paul Regnier: and I've seen a lot of people, and I've even done this, where you write that short story or novella set in the world of your series, and then you give it away for a free download if you sign up for the newsletter kind of thing.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: So then it's not not maybe not as painful as like, I have to give away my whole first book.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: you know I spent so much time on this.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. ah
Paul Regnier: So yeah, that's another way to do it.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. That's a very smart thing to set up because the idea is just incentivizing new readers who are not familiar with you yet. and, And it's good to get it kind of framed correctly in your mind because that's not a lost sale. That is somebody who would not know your work otherwise or become familiar with your work otherwise. You're you're putting your free book out there on all these different promo sites where these are brand new people, where they're just seeing you for the first time. Those people are not going to, if that free book weren't there, they they probably wouldn't have discovered you on Amazon, you know, just...
Lindsay Franklin: organically. That's the whole purpose of doing these kind of promotional efforts. So it's not a lost sale. It's casting that really wide net to try to find your next batch of readers who love you.
Lindsay Franklin: So it's, it, we've got to kind of like get ourselves in the right mindset when we're giving away content.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: I feel like, because it can be, can be a little bit painful to do it, but it's, it's still, it's a very wise um thing to do.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, you know, one thing too I just thought of, which is kind of ah like a little bit of a warning, I guess, is because we're talking about like when you're writing a series, you can like end with these unanswered questions to lead them to the first, like, you know, when we were talking about Empire Strikes Back.
Paul Regnier: So the what I would say too is you you want to be careful to make sure the ending of your book, even if it's in a series, is very satisfying on its own.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: almost just as satisfying as any standalone book would be.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: And then you open up a little bit of thread for the ongoing story.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: Only because like I've read some series where they end with a little bit too much of a cliffhanger.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: And i I maybe was like interested in the book, in the first book, but not necessarily the series.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: You know what I mean?
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: like It didn't hook me that much. And then it left me like with this unfinished, kind of unsettled feeling. like ah like Not only was I not going to go to the second book in the series, but now I don't really like the first one.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, because you didn't wrap enough.
Lindsay Franklin: Right now I'm annoyed because because if you don't, you didn't wrap it up enough, you if you don't get that, yeah, you've got to give that satisfying ending and with still enough.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. yeah you didn't wrap it up enough yeah
Lindsay Franklin: And it is tricky. It's hard to find that balance, but it's, it's one of those craft things that if you can figure out how to do that, you're going to strike that balance of enough momentum, enough intrigue and all of that to take readers from book to book to book, but not because the cliffhanger starts to feel like a device at some point.
Paul Regnier: It's tricky.
Lindsay Franklin: And
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And that some point is like the first time you do it a lot with readers where they feel kind of tricked or like it's a yes, like it's a it's a sales gimmick or something, you know, like forcing you.
Paul Regnier: Like, right. Manipulated. Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And I I say this as somebody who definitely I acknowledge that my book two in the Weaver trilogy ends on a cliffhanger. I acknowledge it. ah But it's I felt like at that point I was OK with it, because if you've gone through two two books in my trilogy and it's a planned trilogy,
Paul Regnier: Yeah, I think it's, yeah, for book two, I think it's more acceptable because people have already like gone all in and they'll probably gonna, already intending to read to the end if they've if they're reading book two.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, that's a good point.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. That was kind of, I felt like at that point I had earned it with my readers a little bit.
Paul Regnier: That's a good point.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, right.
Lindsay Franklin: Like if you've made it to the ending of book two and it's still like, I'm sure did not please, you know, some of my readers because then they had to wait for, I think I had like a nine month gap or something between when book two came out and when book three was coming out.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: So there were definitely people who were not super pleased if they read it, you know, right after it released.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: But um I felt like I had earned that a little bit. And that was like one of the scenes that I knew so early where that book was ending. Like, it's just one of the first scenes that came to me.
Lindsay Franklin: And I just said, I'm sorry, readers. like this I apologize. This is how it's ending, though. I just know that that's how this book needs to end. um But with book one, I was very careful to try to make it feel like a complete and satisfying story with that little bit of like, okay, ed but we're going off on the next adventure kind of a feeling to it.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So, oh, yay.
Paul Regnier: And you did. I read that book, so I could say, like in my mind, you you definitely did. um Yeah, and the other thing is is to, um like and always be careful with like examples, because I know we did like the Star Wars example.
Lindsay Franklin: Thank you.
Paul Regnier: Now, people were crazy for this movie back in the day. like they They would have kept going to the third movie like no matter what. So it's like, I know we're saying like, oh they were like so inspired and clever at ending with this series of downers and clipping.
Paul Regnier: Now that's because it was hugely popular. And the more popular something is, the more you can kind of get away with stuff, you know?
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh yeah, 100%.
Paul Regnier: So you have to just, anytime you do any of these things, be very careful, like what you're doing.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes, yep.
Paul Regnier: And like what you just said was a perfect example of you earned people's trust. in the first book. And then the readership that was already moved on to the second, we're already saying, I'm kind of committed to the series. So when you did the cliffhanger, it's like, OK, that's fine.
Paul Regnier: But if you did that in the first book, that would that would have been a lot more risky, and you might have angered more people that weren't going to read past that first one.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh. Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Right. And especially with that being my debut novel, they did not have a reason, my readers, to trust me at all. It was their first exposure to me ever.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, right.
Lindsay Franklin: And so they don't know if I actually know how to write an ending, you know, ah period at all, because that's the first thing that most people have ever read that I have written.
Lindsay Franklin: And so you really, I do think that you have to earn it. And Star Wars certainly earned it. That's one of the biggest IPs of all time, one of the biggest movie series of all time.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And and it It was that at the the time that it came out. It's not like it retroactively became that popular.
Paul Regnier: Right. Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: It was that big. And so they absolutely earned their viewership's, ah you know, trust as well.
Paul Regnier: Right. Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And particularly by putting out two really excellent movies and doing something so kind of at the time innovative and amazing in that genre.
Paul Regnier: Sure.
Lindsay Franklin: I mean, it was just, they a hundred percent earned it to be able to have all of these like, you know, cliffhangers, downers, dark things and ending the movie on that.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: All right.
Lindsay Franklin: And then it was like years, wasn't it before? um
Paul Regnier: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Kids don't know these days the patience we had to have.
Lindsay Franklin: Right. Oh my gosh.
Paul Regnier: It was like three years in between each one where we just suffered and everyone was coming up coming up with theories about like, oh I heard this is going to happen.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. With return of the Jedi. yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: and There wasn't like spoilers online. Back in my day.
Lindsay Franklin: right
Paul Regnier: Mostly
Lindsay Franklin: right
Paul Regnier: yeah
Lindsay Franklin: It would have had to be like spoilers in the newspaper, like 80s.
Paul Regnier: ruin it yeah
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, man.
Paul Regnier: let' say it was just rumors with your friends on the schoolyard.
Lindsay Franklin: Right. Right. Right. Oh, my goodness. Oh, that's funny. um So, yeah, think.
Paul Regnier: Well, I think, did we cover everything? Did i did we miss anything?
Lindsay Franklin: i I think we did. I want to just say one thing. This will be my last comment from the publisher side of things.
Paul Regnier: Oh, yes.
Lindsay Franklin: One. Okay. So one more business thing we've talked about marketing and just briefly on the publisher side of things um sometimes, and it depends on the publisher where, you know, it varies what they're looking for.
Lindsay Franklin: Some publishers um and, and this also changes with different seasons, but sometimes a publisher wants a three book series because if they're gore or a two book series, because if they're going to invest in like building up an author or, you know, getting ah promotional efforts for like a book one going, then they kind of want to have that long tail potential of read through on the rest of the series.
Lindsay Franklin: Like it' sort of sometimes that's the philosophy, but a lot of times, especially for a debut author, publishers might be more open to signing a standalone.
Lindsay Franklin: And that is because you are an unproven entity.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: If this is your debut, you've never published anything.
Paul Regnier: m
Lindsay Franklin: And so this is like a bit of a test run for for you as an author.
Paul Regnier: yeah
Lindsay Franklin: See if readers respond, see if you get any traction out there, if their promotional efforts are successful. Then, you know, if you've written series potential into that particular standalone, then you might get signed for, you know, to continue that series or, If that standalone does well and you have other series or other standalones that you can pitch to that publisher, they might then be really open to that.
Lindsay Franklin: But sometimes a standalone, if it's a really well-executed one, so a standalone that doesn't just feel like a book one that cuts off, you know, and really should be a series, like it has to be a good, complete feeling standalone, um then that might get you a little bit more traction with some publishers so that you can prove yourself with them.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So. Just a little tip.
Paul Regnier: I was kind of surprised that I, you saying that kind of makes me surprised that I got signed for a trilogy. I was so untested.
Lindsay Franklin: You know? Yeah.
Paul Regnier: I'm like, thank you for having faith in me because I don't know what I'm doing.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. ah Yeah.
Paul Regnier: And on the indie side of things too, I will mention like, ah not, well, sorry, not the indie side, the discovery writer side of things, because you mentioned like, it's really good if you're writing a series to almost plot it out, like in almost like an overarching three act structure.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: So I will freely admit i have not done that with any of my series. I have not planned out anything. i just launched right into the first one. And then i'm you know by the time I'm almost done, I'm like, hey, I bet I could turn this into a series.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: But I've never had it where i have this big you know plan charted out or anything. um I do, as I'm writing it, I do like keep in mind certain things like, oh, if I do this in a series, I bet I could continue this thread, this story thread, or I bet I could bring this character back.
Paul Regnier: Or like, oh, maybe I'll introduce like someone that seems like they're an even worse threat, but I'll just mention it in like a rumor
Lindsay Franklin: he
Paul Regnier: almost as if, oh, it's just two people in a tavern talking about, oh you think this is bad? You should have seen what happened over in this kingdom with this sorcerer.
Lindsay Franklin: Right.
Paul Regnier: He was the worst. you know And I think, okay, maybe he'll be the villain in book two.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: So I drop things like that, knowing like, okay, I could use this later.
Lindsay Franklin: isn it
Paul Regnier: So I leave breadcrumbs, but I don't really plan much out.
Lindsay Franklin: yeah
Paul Regnier: So you can do it, discovery writers out there.
Lindsay Franklin: right Yes, absolutely.
Paul Regnier: You can wing it the whole way through.
Lindsay Franklin: You can, you can.
Paul Regnier: I've done it
Lindsay Franklin: And I think that that's actually, I'm really glad that you kind of walked through how that works for you because what I hear is your innate understanding of story and structure and plot.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: You are giving yourself all of the framework that you need to be able to do that.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Even if you're not planning everything out in advance, you, ah it would be, Unsurprising to me if we got to the end of a trilogy that you wrote, but you Discovery wrote the series as you went.
Lindsay Franklin: um and that we couldn't identify some overarching kind of three-act feel to it you know over the three books.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And I think it's because of that innate understanding of sort of how to build that as you continue on.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So um you absolutely can do it without sitting down and kind of plotting things out or writing things on index cards or looking at an outline. just It's the same as what we always talk about with discovery versus outlining, where you you just have to get there by the end.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: By the time you have like written the thing, it's kind of got to have that structure.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And that's true for both the the individual stories and also for the series.
Paul Regnier: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: So um I think you're you're like playing it by by ear when you do that, but it's like, it's still, it's the right music. You know what I mean?
Paul Regnier: right
Lindsay Franklin: It's still happening the way it's supposed to. Mm-hmm.
Paul Regnier: Like I've, I've read a lot and I've watched a lot of story, so it's kind of you're right. It's almost like I've got it in my head, kind of like intuitively, I kind of know what a story needs, I guess.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: You know where to drop those breadcrumbs as opposed to if you didn't have that understanding of how to open those threads up and kind of leave yourself that potential, you could write the book one that might be great and feel very complete.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And then if you decide to continue it on, there might be none of those little threads to pick up because it wasn't planned in advance. And so then you end up in a really tough position with your book two of trying to, how do I continue a story that was never really meant to be continued?
Paul Regnier: Right. m
Lindsay Franklin: And so that um that's when you get yourself in a really tough spot with that.
Paul Regnier: right
Lindsay Franklin: So yeah.
Paul Regnier: Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Well, very good. All right. i think we solved all the problems between
Lindsay Franklin: ah Of the world. Just all the problems, period.
Paul Regnier: of the world.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: everything Everything is so much better now. um
Lindsay Franklin: Okay. All
Paul Regnier: Well, cool. Cool. It's so funny. I think i almost feel like i want to I'm like ah at a class and I want to open it up for questions. to me
Lindsay Franklin: right. Does anyone have any questions?
Paul Regnier: Does anyone have any questions?
Lindsay Franklin: DM us. Yeah. Find us on Instagram. Bye.
Paul Regnier: Right, right.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: Well, very good. Thank you everyone for listening. We hope this has been interesting and informative and we will see you next time.
Lindsay Franklin: bye
