Transcript
Paul Regnier: Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Paul Regner.
Lindsay Franklin: And I'm Lindsay Franklin.
Paul Regnier: And today we have a special new thing we've never done before. This is our fantasy round table with a special guest. S .D. Grimm Welcome.
Lindsay Franklin: Yay!
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Hello.
Lindsay Franklin: This is the amazing Estee Grimm. Around here, we call her Sarah. um So, you know, yes, we don't have to to use the official fancy initials, but um yeah, we are talking about.
Lindsay Franklin: fantasy today, which is super exciting, um between the three of us.
Lindsay Franklin: Lindsay, Paul, and Sarah, we have written fantasy for middle grade audiences, young adult audiences, and adult audiences. We have ah written in worlds ranging from secondary world high fantasy to portal fantasy to kind of contemporary fantasy, magic touching our world, all over the place. And so we thought it would be super fun. to compare notes about that and to talk about what changes and what stays exactly the same when you are writing fantasy across different subgenres and for different age groups. so
Lindsay Franklin: Welcome, Sarah, to our Fantasy Roundtable.
Paul Regnier: Yay. yaa
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Thank you for having me. I'm really excited.
Lindsay Franklin: Yay, we are so excited to have you. And so if our listeners are not familiar with the work of Estee Grimm, she is the author of many novels across a lot of different genres.
Lindsay Franklin: um So Children of the Blood Moon Trilogy is the debut fantasy series, is A Dragon by Any Other Name. And I'm going to pass the mic to Sarah and let her introduce herself and her work to you a little bit um so that you can.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): seventeen
Lindsay Franklin: meet her. We're so excited to have Sarah here. Yay.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah I'm so excited to be here. Yes, and I do sometimes. burst out into song while i'm talking so if that happens don't be alarmed everything's fine
Paul Regnier: All right, singing, our first ever singing guest.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Um. but
Lindsay Franklin: Woohoo!
Paul Regnier: you need Whenever you answer the questions, you have to sing your answers.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No.
Paul Regnier: that's
Lindsay Franklin: What?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um Yes. So, yeah, i I love fantasy. I love speculative fiction. So I write all different kinds. and um urban fantasy fantasy and sci -fi that's blended sword and sorcery all of it and i love it all and right now all of it has been YA, but...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Who knows if we'll stay there forever. forever
Lindsay Franklin: Awesome. That is awesome. I'm kind of in a similar place. Of course, our listeners are probably familiar. But yes, I have written the Weaver Trilogy, um which is kind of high fantasy young adult. And then more recently, the Rivenly Sphere. That's the unraveling of Emlyn Dulane and the restitching of Camille Dulane. Portal Fantasy. Both of those are YA, but now I'm sitting here going.
Lindsay Franklin: am I going to switch to adult? Is it that time? Like, have we done that? Maybe I'm going to go backwards and start writing middle grade.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): or
Lindsay Franklin: I don't know. I just don't know if I'm going to write YA forever, but so far that is what I have done in the fantasy space and otherwise.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): field Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: um And Paul just. for you. Recap for our listeners really fast about some of the fantasy you have written. You have been, as I was kind of jotting down some notes for this show, I was thinking, okay, what are all of Paul's fantasy works? You have written so many different fantasy subgenres and for different age groups. It's actually quite impressive. So can you just kind of give our listeners the brief overview of what fantasy you have written?
Paul Regnier: Yeah, I'm all over the place. You make it sound better than it is, I think.
Lindsay Franklin: but
Paul Regnier: um no the the so the last uh two books i've i've written are middle grade fantasy And that's the Agency of Magic and Mythical Creatures and the Most Dangerous Pet Shop. um In about a week or two, I'm going to release the sequel to the Agency of Magic and Mythical Creatures.
Paul Regnier: So that'll be three in the middle grade space, which has been great.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): nice
Paul Regnier: um And we had an earlier episode where we talked about like sort of.
Lindsay Franklin: That's awesome.
Paul Regnier: finding your... Niche. you know. in the and the literary world. And I. and you know I go over in detail, but a lot of a lot of it came down to like readers like getting response from middle grade readers that liked...
Paul Regnier: fantasy books that I thought I was writing for an adult audience you know but I'm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): side
Paul Regnier: I guess I'm just a little immature, so it appealed to a younger crowd.
Lindsay Franklin: No, no, no. we call We call that kid at heart.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No.
Lindsay Franklin: That's what we call that, kid at heart.
Paul Regnier: I'm childlike.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: Some might say Peter Pan syndrome.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: I don't know.
Lindsay Franklin: i yeah
Paul Regnier: But...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I say don't grow up. It's a trap. okay admiral akbar voice i saw this on a shirt once it was literally admiral akbar and it said
Paul Regnier: Yes.
Paul Regnier: That's a trap.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): don't grow up and then under it was like it's a trap And I was like,
Paul Regnier: ah now I'll go with that.
Lindsay Franklin: i Love it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I need that shirt. I need it.
Paul Regnier: I'll go with that. Um, No, I just, I love. Um, I just kind of like going where the inspiration hits me. And, um but yeah, middle grade has been sort of the last couple of years where I've been and it's, it's been real fun. I mean, my, my fantasies is humorous, but it's also pretty clean. And I think that just lend itself to middle grade audiences because that's kind of what they're expecting. So it was just a good fit. I still...
Paul Regnier: um I'm still going to probably. bounce around a little bit. um It's just fun for me to kind of... to you know i get an idea and i'm like okay oh my gosh i'm so excited and that's what i'm gonna write so whatever category or subcategory that lands in you know it's okay it's all but again it's all under speculative fiction so Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, I love how. broad the speculative fiction umbrella is and how For those of us who do kind of have ideas that are maybe a little bit out there or we like to ping around a little bit, this is the space where we like to live.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes
Paul Regnier: Yeah, me too.
Lindsay Franklin: This is the planet we live on, right? um And even if you... bring it down to just fantasy. It's true even just in the fantasy space and sort of taking out the sci -fi aspect or the other sub -genres of speculative fiction.
Lindsay Franklin: There are so many different ah types of fantasy. And so we really can, you could just stay on planet fantasy for your entire career and still kind of write all over the map, which I think is is really fun for those of us who do like to bounce around with um with what we're writing.
Paul Regnier: Mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): okay
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And clearly between the three of us, collectively, we have decided that reality is boring. We need a little bit of magic, we need a little bit of sparkle that we need a little bit of, you know, something right in the world.
Paul Regnier: but
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes.
Paul Regnier: i think that's what it comes down to oh my goodness you nailed it
Lindsay Franklin: So yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: Right? Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: We just, we need that little bit of, um I wanted to say whimsy, but I feel like that word might be a little overused, but sparkle, right? A little bit of magic.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: I love it
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): a little bit of sparkle
Paul Regnier: You know what's funny? I have to say something about what you just said. I... I mean, I used to hate being bored. Like as a kid, I was always bored in school and then you'd be waiting in line or your mom would take you to the clothes store and you'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm so bored.
Paul Regnier: I feel that, though, because I didn't have a phone when I was a kid. i'm gonna jump Back in my day, we didn't have these cell phones.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh yeah.
Paul Regnier: so But I will say, I think that boredom. lent itself. to your mind just going, I need to escape somewhere cool.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Paul Regnier: cause
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: I'm stuck in the... seat outside the women's dressing room while my mom like tries on new clothes and oh my gosh how long is this gonna take Um,
Lindsay Franklin: That's so real.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.
Paul Regnier: So I think that boredom really helps you to lose yourself in imagination, go to a different world or find those books.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Agreed.
Paul Regnier: You're like, oh, cool. At least I can read this book. you know
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Paul Regnier: um
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: But I really think there's something good about boredom. and And I don't know.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: I almost think like the phones and games, it's almost like. I don't know if it's like a hindrance to imagination. like when you could be sitting there bored and then you get into like this imaginary state i wonder if you can even like get there as much because you're all you can always just like well i'm bored i'm gonna pick up my phone or whatever so I don't know.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): report a little bit Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Little side thought.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Maybe that could be a whole nother episode. I don't know.
Lindsay Franklin: We probably could.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It could.
Lindsay Franklin: i You know what? I'm going to jot it down. I do this every time.
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: We have these random thoughts and I'm like.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i think
Lindsay Franklin: o That's another episode. Let's talk about that sometime.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It really is.
Lindsay Franklin: But yes. All right. So I'm just going to write on my post -it note, boredom, and we'll see if I remember what that means ah in a day or two. But yeah, I think you're you're absolutely right that that kind of.
Lindsay Franklin: It's like letting your mind be quiet, sort of, so that it can spin off into other areas.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: And I think we can sort of ah trigger that.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: ah Like, we have to be intentional about it, I think, in our modern world where stuff is so...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: noisy and so many things are vying for our attention. We just have to like. be intentional about creating that space where our mind can be bored so to speak but where it's just quiet and it can kind of go into that imaginative state. um But this brings us to such an interesting kind of foundational question, I think, which is this is the first thing I want to ask you all for our roundtable is.
Lindsay Franklin: What makes fantasy? a favorite genre for you?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you know
Lindsay Franklin: What drew you to it in the first place? And why have you stuck with it all these years? Because we we are all maybe, you know, people of a certain age, right we are writers of a certain age.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.
Lindsay Franklin: And so we have been fantasy fans for, you know, decades, each of us at this point.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah
Lindsay Franklin: So what is it about fantasy specifically that has drawn you?
Paul Regnier: Mm -hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: and kept hold of you for all of this time.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and then it starts
Lindsay Franklin: Sarah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Dragons. I mean, really, I love - Okay, I love animals.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: Dragons.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I actually grew up in a home where...
Lindsay Franklin: see
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I wasn't allowed to read fantasy. And so I read like the animal stories like Watership Down and all these, you know, Call of the Wild, White Fang, all these stories where animals were the main characters because the other stuff was too.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um I also like mystery, I guess. But ah the other genres to me, they just didn't pull me in in the same way because you were talking about, Paul, we need that escapism. And so for me, that escapism really came with this huge imagination. And I liked.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): the the animals and so um My first. My drawer book, if you will, the one that's stuck in the drawer that may never come out, but may someday, who knows, is a middle grade about this.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): dog who's actually magical and part magical creature that i made up and he gets amnesia because he gets hit by a car in the human world and oh no so anyway um
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That was my...
Lindsay Franklin: I love it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That was my thing because I couldn't. I couldn't read and I couldn't access so much of the other fantasy, but my dad was a fantasy lover. And so I would.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): pick up his Writers of Pern books off the shelves. And I would see like the dragons on the front covers and I would literally just. move the books around like they were figures and pretend that they were just dragons and they were having little
Lindsay Franklin: oh
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): conversations and adventures and all this stuff. And I would hear my mom. Kev! She found your... books again!
Paul Regnier: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So... So I always Loved that, but I was allowed then to read Star Wars. and I was allowed to read C .S. Lewis and Tolkien. So those were kind of my portal in.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And after I had my first kid. 17 years ago, I was like... Let's... Let's write a story about humans. So, of course, the humans bond to like wolves and other magical animals like dragons and things, of course, because there's still animals.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um But I was like, let's. let's do the human thing and see if that's also interesting to me. Lo and behold, humans are very interesting and um and they have like a much greater array of emotion than animals.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And so that was really fun and it hooked me in and I just.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I love. The whole magical aspect. And as a Christian, I love. That our God is supernatural and, you know, science is magic to me.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Fight me. You can't. You can't.
Lindsay Franklin: Add us.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Take that away from me.
Lindsay Franklin: Add us in the comments. yeah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. um
Paul Regnier: Let's talk about dark matter.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right? Okay, that's a whole nother thing. And I have a whole book on that too.
Lindsay Franklin: oh
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But anyway, um so when we get to all those genres and sub genres, I have stuff to say. But um yeah, so. I love that as well. And I just love the impossible and um making the impossible something that's real and or normal in a world. And so.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I cannot. see myself taking the speculative or fantasy out of my writing anytime soon, whether I go middle grade or adult or probably graphic novels.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: ah love it I love it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): who
Lindsay Franklin: And yeah.
Paul Regnier: Wait, i have a quick fantasy I have a quick follow -up question with something you said.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.
Paul Regnier: You said it sounded like your dad was a fantasy fan. He's reading the Dragon Riders of Pern and stuff like that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes. Yes.
Paul Regnier: But it sounds like your mom was like. Get those books out of here.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Paul Regnier: So was was this the contention why you couldn't read fantasy when you were a little?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): My mom was so... worried so to go into a little bit of my mom's story she almost became Wiccan she was like so this close and so she was very nervous about her kids growing up and embracing
Paul Regnier: Okay.
Paul Regnier: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Dark magic and things like that.
Paul Regnier: Right, I see.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And so.
Paul Regnier: So she's a little more sensitive to all that stuff.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, she, yes.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But now, like she's a very big fan of not just me, but like, um Paul, I've purchased books of yours for my dad, Lindsay, my mom has all of your books, you know, a lot of my friends books.
Paul Regnier: Oh.
Paul Regnier: Wow.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So my mom, and now she's like, Oh, I love Harry Potter. And so she, she's.
Lindsay Franklin: laughter
Paul Regnier: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): she's crossed over to the dark side the light night yeah okay yes she's one of us
Lindsay Franklin: she's one of us she's one of us yes the sparkly side she's crossed over to the sparkly side yes
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The sparkly side. I love it. So yes. um So she has, and we've had some nice conversations about that. And then when I wrote my one book, that's paranormal and delves into dark magic.
Paul Regnier: um
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um I was like, you don't have to read this. and she And she did. And she was like, no, I think it's very well done, et cetera. But um it was. It was in the beginning that she was like, I can't. I can't have her do this, but since I was allowed to watch. Star Wars.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I was allowed to read. the novels as well. So. Yeah. Anyway. but
Paul Regnier: As all children should be. because i
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I agree.
Paul Regnier: i think if you're not allowed that's child abuse right if you're not allowed to Watch Snarl Wars.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i agree Right?
Lindsay Franklin: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I'm I mean, I'm raising my kids right. we're We're into all kinds of anime and manga and Tolkien. and Harry Potter and all that jazz.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So, you know, the superheroes, all of it. um I got my shirt on that you can't see in the darkness.
Paul Regnier: Oh superheroes, yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's potatoes. Boil and mash them stick them in a stew. I wore my fantasy shit potatoes
Lindsay Franklin: Potatoes. ah I love it. This is where if if we edited our our video feeds for YouTube, I would pull up the photo.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh.
Lindsay Franklin: of me and Tracina, our marketing director at Enclave, meeting. Samwise, Gamgee, and ah Frodo Baggins at Phoenix Fan Fusion last year.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): oh yes
Lindsay Franklin: because we met them. And this is relevant because Tristina brought in her backpack a bunch of potatoes. And we walked up to these two men and said, would you please hold our potatoes?
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah
Lindsay Franklin: and Sean Astin is like, that they were both so sweet when we we did this.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Of course.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah
Lindsay Franklin: And just, of course. and and But Sean's face when I asked him that, because I walked up to him, Tracina walked up to Elijah Wood. And Sean Astin was like, I would love to. Or something like that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): so so
Paul Regnier: yeah
Lindsay Franklin: He was so cute. And he took the potato and is like. Like holding it up in the photo. We have a photo of this. So I would put that here if we did that kind of fancy editing. But um yeah, maybe I'll post it on socials.
Lindsay Franklin: it It deserves another moment in the spotlight, that picture.
Paul Regnier: You know, I think that's the one of the reasons two years ago we have a local Comic -Con here in Idaho. I think that's why he came to our local Comic -Con.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): ah Yes.
Paul Regnier: Because we're famous for our potatoes.
Lindsay Franklin: ah Potatoes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Absolutely. lee Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: There you go. I love it.
Paul Regnier: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): See? My husband lived in Idaho for a little while and I love potatoes.
Lindsay Franklin: but
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): They are my favorite food.
Paul Regnier: Oh, they're the best.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So when, before we dated and you know, our first little date, he's sitting down at the cafeteria at her college.
Lindsay Franklin: Same.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I said, Oh, you're from Idaho. Do you like potatoes? He said yes. potatoes are great. So I was like, this could work.
Paul Regnier: Hup.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's good work. So.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: That's mandatory here.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): There you go.
Paul Regnier: yeah You have to.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. True Hobbit right here.
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: That's right, locked in for life. Do you like potatoes?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Done. Okay.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I'm 4 '11".
Lindsay Franklin: We're signing up.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So here we go.
Lindsay Franklin: That's right. ah I love it. um So, Paul, that question, I'm going to kick that question over to you. what What was it that initially drew you to the fantasy, to planet fantasy? That's what I'm going to call it.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, I mean I think um I'll mention quickly because I've all... I've said all this stuff on previous episodes, but like as a kid, my favorite show was the old Twilight Zone, the reruns of the old black and white Twilight Zone.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Paul Regnier: I loved it because every episode.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: You never even knew where it was going to go.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You are okay.
Paul Regnier: might be supernatural, might be horror, might be sci -fi. It was all over the place, but I loved it. It was like, oh my gosh, there's no limits to my imagination on this show where everything else.
Paul Regnier: felt so contained, right? like you know no matter what it was it was cool like these shows but there was there was limits right there was all these boundaries and i love twilight zone because there was no boundaries like anything could happen so i love that idea and i feel like
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Once I started reading fantasy and like the the book that opened my mind to all that was The Hobbit. You know, when I first started reading The Hobbit, I. I was so immersed. It was amazing. And I think ever since then, I'm like, okay, this is the genre that really lets your mind go just about anywhere.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It does.
Paul Regnier: so that was kind of like that was my gateway drug into fantasy was the hobbit and it just like and then i read you know lord of the rings and like i got into a bunch of um
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: you know, all the Shannara series by tara brooks Terry Brooks. and Bunch of different books after that, but I just, I loved all the the whole fantasy genre of the magic.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I recently met him.
Paul Regnier: I just love the possibilities and the, the. the different settings, you know, because you could have anything you could. walk through a forest with golden glowing leaves and and all kinds of brand new creatures just that you've never heard i don't know it's just to me there was no there was no limits and it was so fun for my imagination
Lindsay Franklin: anything
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): trying to know
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That takes a really good...
Paul Regnier: um So that's basically like how it started.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): All in your path.
Paul Regnier: And then I guess I just never got over it.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: It was just so interesting to me even now.
Lindsay Franklin: we
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Paul Regnier: And in and all different kinds of, like you mentioned, there was at the beginning of the show, there's all different kinds of fantasy.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): six be anywhere
Paul Regnier: like portal and or it could just be like oh there's um Something slightly different about our world or something and that could be
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): presentation mode
Paul Regnier: fantastical element but it's all interesting to me i just i like that stuff and it but the funny thing is the older i get i felt like it was more accepted when i was young like oh you're into fantasy yeah all kids are into fantasy but now i'm an adult and they're like oh you're you're still into dragons and stuff really you know So it's.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): it
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The trap!
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Forever.
Paul Regnier: yeah so now it's a little more like you know especially like sometimes um you know, like I'll be at church or something and I'm like, oh, what do you do? You know, I'm a writer and this and that. And I'm like, oh, what do you write? And I feel like the expectation is like, I'm going to be writing about like theology or some.
Lindsay Franklin: Nonfiction, yeah.
Paul Regnier: Something with deep spiritual media. I'm like, oh, like knights and dragons and stuff. And they're like, oh, what are you, 12? You know, so. But those are the people I think.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: that aren't fans of fantasy.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: Right.
Paul Regnier: Um, and especially when i was younger i felt like it was less now i feel like because of um special effects and things it's a little more mainstream especially like superhero stuff if you were into comic books when i was a kid you were a nerd you know but now it's like mainstream
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Paul Regnier: And I'm like, where was this when I was a kid?
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: Back in my day.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.
Paul Regnier: but um But yeah, it' so there I think there still is a little bit of a weirdness. Like with like. As you're an adult and you're still writing these things, but you know, whatever, you know, everyone's got their cross to bear.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: And that is ours as fantasy writers. And I don't really care, you know, because I love it and I'm proud of it.
Lindsay Franklin: As. which
Paul Regnier: um yeah i just it never gets old for me it's always cool it's always interesting And it's cool now that they can make movies and shows with special effects what they are now.
Lindsay Franklin: I love that.
Paul Regnier: Because, you know.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: It used to be really cheesy looking when they tried to convert it to like visual media, but now it looks amazing.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and
Paul Regnier: So, you know.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Paul Regnier: It's a good time to be alive
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. And I think that's kind of why sometimes the impression, at least in the past, has been that this this genre or all of these different sub genres. are for kids i think when when we were kids they were starting to do more kind of live action stuff with fantasy genres we had some great fantasy movies in the 80s um but a lot of it what that was just like the beginning
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Okay.
Paul Regnier: I still like Neverending Story.
Lindsay Franklin: Ugh.
Paul Regnier: It's still good.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Same.
Lindsay Franklin: Love it. And labyrinth.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I had a dog named Falcor.
Lindsay Franklin: Come on. Come on.
Paul Regnier: Ugh.
Lindsay Franklin: Ugh.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and labyrinth yes labyrinth
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
Paul Regnier: Falkor!
Lindsay Franklin: Yes, we love it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Love that stuff.
Paul Regnier: Atreyu!
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Those were... ah ah Those were great movies.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but
Lindsay Franklin: And, you know, like kids our age, we we grew up with that stuff.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: um But that was kind of like I feel sort of the start of that. There was Star Trek and stuff much earlier than that. But, you know, we were just kind of moving into that prior. It it would be like you'd have to do an animated.
Lindsay Franklin: You know, like fairy tales, those are all, like ah most fairy tales are fantasy, right? But you would have to represent that in animation because there just was not the the capability of doing doing that sort of thing very well in live action.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Okay.
Lindsay Franklin: And that has changed over the decades.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And as our generation has come of age, I think it has become a lot more acceptable. I still totally understand that vibe that you're talking about, Paul, where people are like, oh!
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Amen. gonna
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, okay. That's what you do. They look at my silver hair.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um
Lindsay Franklin: How old are you? Okay.
Paul Regnier: or
Lindsay Franklin: Well, you know.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): no
Lindsay Franklin: And I'm like, yes, I write for teens. They're like, do you? Okay, that's all right, grandma, what are you doing? But hey, this is, you know, we are who we are, right?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: That's right.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. So it was kind of similar for me, my my sort of gateway into into this fantasy genre. It was always about... the imagination side of it and the wonder.
Lindsay Franklin: I think because I read in all genres, I still read in all genres.
Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: I love a lot of different genres. um But. Fantasy has that that just that wonder and the sparkle and the the magic to it. And I don't necessarily mean magic system.
Lindsay Franklin: I just mean that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): right
Lindsay Franklin: that kind of I don't know how else to say it aside from sparkle, because that's the image that comes to mind for me is just like these books just glitter a little bit as you as you read the story ideas.
Paul Regnier: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: It's like you hear that little fairy noise in your head like that's that's what will pull me in for something where it just feels um out of the ordinary and something that that triggers my imagination and sparks wonder.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): stop
Lindsay Franklin: um I hear puppies.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Sorry.
Paul Regnier: Got a dog dog fight all of a sudden.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): They're upstairs. but apparently something happened and they had to tell someone about it so sorry
Lindsay Franklin: ah ah Sarah has a pack of very beautiful dogs. our Our listeners are familiar with the way that my pack of cats or my herd of cats, I don't know what they are, but um my gaggle of of felines, um the way that they...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Paul Regnier: No, no, it's a
Lindsay Franklin: Interrupt.
Paul Regnier: It's a fantasy round table. She has a Cerberus upstairs.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, I do I do.
Lindsay Franklin: Oh, there you go. I like it ah So it's just one.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Obi -Wan Kenobi Strider and Nixie.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So they all have fantasy names.
Lindsay Franklin: Those are her
Paul Regnier: That's the names of the three heads of the Cerberus.
Lindsay Franklin: Those are her dogs. Yes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right?
Lindsay Franklin: I love it. um Yeah, so that it's kind of that's what it is for me. That's what still draws me there. And I'm somebody who kind of tends to think in pictures, my imagination works in visual.
Lindsay Franklin: pictures And I always wish I. had inherited my dad's gift for illustration and that I could actually draw better than I can but
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): 100 ,000.
Lindsay Franklin: I can't. I didn't inherit the gift. um But I think that way visually. And the stuff that comes into my head still from the time I was little up till now, the ideas that I have and the things that I think about just.
Lindsay Franklin: automatically lend themselves to the fantasy genre because they are often things that don't exist in our world or couldn't happen in our world you know physically and so it it needs to be a fantasy thing so that's why I keep coming back to it I don't know that it's the only thing I will ever write but I can't see
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): doing
Lindsay Franklin: giving up fantasy and exclusively writing something else i just i can't fathom that because it's like, it's part of who I am and part of the way that my brain works.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: So my first love.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Aww.
Paul Regnier: yeah
Lindsay Franklin: ah Yes. Awesome. Awesome. so Kind of springboarding off of that, um we've talked about how big Planet Fantasy is and how it includes so many different things. And so we're going to talk a little bit about some of the...
Lindsay Franklin: fundamental differences and maybe some of the things that are very much the same from sub -genre to sub -genre because as we mentioned at the beginning of the episode
Lindsay Franklin: We have covered, between the three of us, so many different things. I was kind of like blown away as I'm, you know, writing down the list of all of our books because um we we cover a lot. None of us is writing just kind of in one narrow subgenre of fantasy. So I thought this would be kind of a fun discussion to have amongst the um the three of us. and my My thought on this is that...
Lindsay Franklin: something that sort of separates a lot of the sub genres of fantasy. ah is. How do the characters in this story experience the fantastical elements?
Lindsay Franklin: of the story. Does that make sense? So um is magic part of their normal or is, you know, is it something that they are being introduced to throughout the story? That kind of dictates sometimes what subgenre you're actually. writing in um so I kind of want to talk about that a little bit about like, what does your character um think?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that's starting Not this.
Lindsay Franklin: is normal in their world and how does that impact um the way that we tell that story.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): stuff in what we've got is
Lindsay Franklin: um And. This is something that has continuously pulled me back to portal fantasy specifically because my first.
Lindsay Franklin: introduction, my gateway, as we might say, into the fantasy genre. I know we've talked about this before. If anybody has read The Unraveling of Emlyn Dulane, this will come as no surprise, but The Wizard of Oz was kind of the one for me when I was very young that was like...
Lindsay Franklin: ah majorly formative for my fantasy brain. And a big part of that was that process of going from Kansas, from gray Kansas into colorful, sparkly, magical Oz and that transition from the mundane to the fantastical. And so. um
Lindsay Franklin: Portal fantasy has always had that kind of appeal for me because as a writer, I love to walk my characters and my readers through that transition from mundane world, regular world.
Lindsay Franklin: normal stuff into. We're not in Kansas anymore, literally in the case of Oz, but figuratively in the case of kind of all portal fantasy.
Paul Regnier: Excuse me, everybody.
Lindsay Franklin: um So. Who among us, aside from me, has written Portal Fantasy? Am I? Paul has.
Paul Regnier: Me.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes, that's right. Because your middle grade is.
Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: portal correct are both series portal.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Okay.
Paul Regnier: Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: That's what I thought. Yes. So how do you create that moment for your reader when the impossible becomes? real. That's the question.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, I mean, to me, Portal Fantasy, it's it's it's almost a little easier because you always... Because your your main character is from your world, from our world.
Paul Regnier: and then once you get there you can have a mentor character or someone else explain the rules of this fantasy world so i think it's just easier to write Because otherwise, because because I've written fantasy too, where it's like the characters live in this world.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Agree. Oh my God.
Paul Regnier: They're already there. And they wouldn't need they wouldn't explain it to each other. Like, oh, what's that? Is that a magical spell? Like, duh, of course.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.
Paul Regnier: you know So it's just easier to write because then you can have a character asking questions and then just like the reader is asking questions. So I think that's a big part of it. But it's just also...
Paul Regnier: Some of it might just be wish fulfillment, like, oh, I wish I could step through a wardrobe into a magical world, you know. So there's a bit of that going on too. um And maybe even a hint of like, I think maybe. there's something beyond our natural material world. like almost that sense like maybe there's something supernatural.
Paul Regnier: you know So you're almost like saying, yeah, there is, yeah. And here's one option, but um I don't know. so i don't that's what it is for me what do you think sarah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So. um I haven't, I've written like some short stories with portal fantasy, but I think that there's a similar element to. in The urban fantasy and.
Paul Regnier: Mmm.
Lindsay Franklin: yes
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um paranormal kind of genres because the characters are also in
Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that real world. And so when the. when they are made aware of the fact that there's actually a supernatural world that they didn't know about, it's a very similar kind of thing that you're...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): guiding that character through it generally they have some other people that they're meeting who are aware of the world and know about all of those rules and so
Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.
Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): In a way, I think the the urban fantasy type. um lends itself very well to that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): same kind of idea even though it's very different than a portal fantasy because you're not going somewhere else you're actually still in the real world so there are those differences and similarities um and i was thinking about because you were talking about your your gateway drugs into um and i think honestly one of mine has to be the last unicorn by peter beagle
Lindsay Franklin: Right.
Paul Regnier: o
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Because, um... I watched it. as a kid first before I read it actually and um And I remembered thinking.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The unicorn exists. Like if if you guys don't know anything about the last unicorn, there's this unicorn and a harpy ends up at one point in the story, kidnapping her and making her part of her bizarre circus. And she's used all of her magic to make all these other things look like magical creatures. And they're not. Some of them are. Some of them are.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and um She takes the unicorn and gives it like this fake horn that. from her magic. And the unicorn's like, why would you do that? I have a horn. And she's like, yeah, but if people don't believe it, they don't see it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And so it's kind of like I loved that idea of because I will like my sister and I always tell each other, we're like, oh. Oh, I believe unicorns exist. So if I see one, I'm going to see that horn because I believe it. um So talk about not growing up. But. um But it's that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I think it's a similar sense of wonder when you're writing like an urban fantasy type of thing, even like Harry Potter. even though it's different and it's like that. um I guess kind of dark academia now vibes. Um, it's got.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): a bit of that. It feels portal fantasy because he's going to Hogwarts, but it also feels like a little bit of that urban fantasy because those forces are in his world as well and so i think it's a similar kind of thing it's like oh the magic is there
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: m
Paul Regnier: Mmm. Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: True.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you have to be You have to kind of believe it in order to see it. And so I like that element and I think it's really fun to play with that because you can play with that also in like a medieval type story or whatever setting you want.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um But it does lend very well also to that urban fantasy where it's like, oh, there's this whole world here that I didn't know about and now I can't. unsee the scary things under my bed e etc so I don't know. I just I feel like that Is is a really fun aspect to bring into the writing because it's another way to bring the reader in to the fantasy world kind of as an introduction.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, for sure. i think that's That's a really good point about the kind of magic hidden within our regular world type of story. So urban fantasy would kind of fall under that umbrella, um certain kinds of.
Lindsay Franklin: other kinds of contemporary fantasy. And even, you know, we talk about like. Harry Potter as one where you could make an argument that it's portal you could make an argument that it's kind of urban fantasy and then sometimes it feels like it's you know set in a completely different world so it kind of like sits in that that space and it sort of all comes down to what what does your character think is normal.
Lindsay Franklin: So like the Harry Potter world, for example, that story and and the way that that world building unfolds would be very different if it was told from Ron's point of view.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Right. Because he's a character who grew up in the magic world as opposed to Harry, who grew up in our regular world and is being introduced to it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yep. mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: And so I totally agree with Paul that it is easier. It is easier as the author when your character is in the same position as your reader where.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Paul Regnier: and
Lindsay Franklin: They are not familiar with this world.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: And so the character and the reader get to walk through the discovery process together. That is so fun. um And yet. you know, telling the Harry Potter story from Ron's point of view would still be really fun.
Lindsay Franklin: It would just be a different kind of fun and a different different way to explore that particular story.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: so Uh oh. I think.
Paul Regnier: Oh, there's...
Lindsay Franklin: Good. There she is. Okay, we lost Sarah for a very brief moment, but she's back.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay. Sorry.
Lindsay Franklin: She's been resurrected like a phoenix. She is here. Yay! ah ah um Awesome. So. um This is kind of an interesting question about that that um urban fantasy or that magic world within our world where it's kind of laced in. um
Lindsay Franklin: How do you decide? Because this is ah a sub -genre that you guys have both written in with that kind of like our regular world where there is, you know, a magic thread that's kind of like in existing in our normal world. So how do you decide what supernatural elements?
Lindsay Franklin: can coexist with our reality. And i'm I'm always interested in this when I teach world building, because I will tell people in my workshops, like, you really have to think through the implications of if you're introducing this supernatural element or something outside of the norm into our norm.
Lindsay Franklin: that my feeling, I'm going to see if you guys agree, my feeling is that you can't just kind of paste it on to our regular world. um You really have to think about if and how that would impact.
Lindsay Franklin: our normal world when things have kind of evolved differently so for example if in your world mermaids exist in all of our deep seas say that's just a thing mermaids are there um
Lindsay Franklin: It's... think through the implications of that. Like, do we have trade with those mermaids? Like, would we have a whole department in our government that interacts with mermaid kind? And, you know, like stuff like that, I just think gives you a lot of opportunity for kind of fun ways to to build your world. But I want to ask you guys that question. Like, how do you decide what can coexist and how deeply do you go into into how it affects our world when you introduce something supernatural?
Paul Regnier: That's a big question.
Lindsay Franklin: It's a big question.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It is.
Lindsay Franklin: I'm sorry.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It is.
Lindsay Franklin: And I'm putting y 'all on the spot because I have not written any of these kinds of stories.
Paul Regnier: Well, I'll just...
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: So I'll just say really quick, just to differentiate. so i've I've written a couple of standalone fantasy, but it's like the characters are all in that world already. and then now with these new ones that's more portal fantasy i actually got to a point where I thought and I... i kind of mentioned this in my last book.
Paul Regnier: that there's a portal. that connects like portals connect all the different worlds including our own so it's almost like these days it's it sort of plays off like cs lewis had that um What is it? the
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.
Paul Regnier: the The wood, the...
Lindsay Franklin: Wood between worlds.
Paul Regnier: He had like...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Paul Regnier: The wood between worlds. Thank you.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: Where there was all these little pools and each pool leads to kind of like a different realm.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: So I kind of, it's sort of that same idea where we're all interconnected. and if like and there's a balance like in this in this new the one i just wrote the sequel to Ah. There's a agency. that kind of monitors like different magical objects and different magical creatures. that.
Paul Regnier: you know smugglers try to bring from one world to another for power or whatever. And there's an agency that sort of polices that, like, no, no, no, you're going to mess up the balance. You've got to return these things. your can't like And there's there's consequences if you do that for all worlds. So I kind of play with that idea for the fantasy books. And then the only other one I have would be, I did that Paranormia series.
Paul Regnier: a duology and those two it's more like we're in this world but there is a supernatural world where there's angels and demons and and normally yeah we can't see them but like i have the main character gets sort of a window.
Paul Regnier: So now he can kind of see a little glimpses of what goes on in this world with the supernatural beings. And then he's... He basically has to kind of live with that reality of a foot in both worlds.
Paul Regnier: So that's kind of what I've experienced, which... i don't know it's a little all over the place but i just i think it's fun and and i think it's interesting
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: um But like, yeah, that's my only. foot in urban fantasy, I think. Sarah probably has a little more. of the urban fantasy kind of experience so I'll just throw it to her and see what her take is.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay, so I have Um. Speaking of phoenixes I have my
Lindsay Franklin: Hehehe.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): phoenix series phoenix fires the first book and i'm i'm working on the rest of that series so with that one um It's... because There are monster hunters. The phoenixes are the monster hunters. There have to be monsters. But you have to decide in your world building. like does Does everybody know that those monsters exist?
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Is it just people that happen to be preyed on by them that they find them? and Are we trying to keep them secret? So it's just it. it
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): ah really a lot of the world building stages asking those those questions and saying, okay, because, you know, if you don't know that the mermaids exist, clearly you can't have trade with them. But if you do, or if some people know and they're privy to that, then maybe these items come from, you know, this one specific guild or something. I mean, I don't know. You could just go anywhere with it. so
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and answering those questions um is just it can be really fun so like in my paranormal um standalone i have the um There's a girl who accidentally summons a ghost. And so because that's like a darker magic and because it's not necessarily normal and because she's being haunted, nobody else really knows about that. And so those are just the kinds of questions that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um That you have to, you have to figure out beforehand, you know, how can they, how can they see the ghost? And then later when there's someone that can kind of interact with them, why is that? So there's a reason for that as well. And so those are the fun things that you can. um just come up with and then in my A dragon by any other name.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Not only do I bring in some... advanced science. technology but it's like okay dragons exist in that world and they terrorize humans and so therefore the occupation of dragon dragon hunter exists and then my main character is a dragon hunter and so it's just um knowing like you're i agree you can't just paste it on you can't just be like oh here's the world with supernatural elements there's no
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): specific it's always a diy there's no like specific way to to make that happen there's no template and so um Just making sure that you know.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): the things about where your story is going and how things would complicate it. Those are just going to bring up all of those fun questions of, okay, well, who knows about this magic? Who doesn't?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): what are the limitations um i'm actually creating a portal fantasy right now with werewolves so um so that one it actually does have portals that go to a bunch of different worlds or different places as well with this central hub that's this dark academia place that's a werewolf school so yay um anyway
Lindsay Franklin: Yay! yay Yay. yea
Paul Regnier: Oh nice.
Lindsay Franklin: Love it. Love it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but I have to do wearable things because, ah you know, we talked about the animals earlier. But anyway, so, um but. But then it's just, it's answering those questions like, okay, so specifically for Earth, who knows that these portals exist?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you know who knows that werewolves exist and so those are just I don't know it's just it's fun it's the fun part of the world building and then of course you as the author you're always going to know more than your reader knows because there's just going to be stuff that doesn't end up in the story.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um So we have to, we have to not fall into the trap of, yes, I've been world building now for three years, which there's nothing wrong with that.
Paul Regnier: yeah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Sometimes the story needs that and you're working on other projects, but yeah, sometimes it's like, um okay, are we ever going to read it?
Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.
Paul Regnier: That's Tolkien.
Lindsay Franklin: uh -huh yep
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I don't know. i don't know because i'm a little scared to write it so um but anyway
Lindsay Franklin: this is forgive me
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): just yeah all of those questions that you have to find yourself asking um Because so... It could go so many different directions. Like you're saying, the the story of Harry Potter told from Ron's perspective would be so different.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And it's it's the same kind of thing if a different character knows different things about.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): these specific supernatural elements in the world. well then that story is going to be very different so you have to decide what does your character know
Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And then... Yeah, it's just really fun because now I'm thinking about guilds that know about mermaids and other guilds that don't.
Lindsay Franklin: kind of build from there. Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And what? What? what
Lindsay Franklin: Like the the mermaid relations department and, you know, stuff like that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right?
Lindsay Franklin: i just And that kind of, ah for whatever reason, I think it's a little bit my sense of humor, but sort of reverse engineering some of those things I find really fun and sort of funny to think about.
Paul Regnier: hu
Lindsay Franklin: Like, okay, we've gone into the speculative element and sort of the fun sparkly thing. And then thinking backwards of like then making that thing mundane by like by making a government department that's going to deal with them.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.
Lindsay Franklin: Or talking about the really boring, you know. great agreements that we have and stuff like that. I don't know why that just always kind of makes me giggle when to to do stuff like that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's fun.
Lindsay Franklin: But yeah, it's fun. And I think that's one of what you're talking about, Sarah, is like one of the... the most fun things for me as a fantasy author is asking those questions and it really does boil down to like what does your character know or what do your characters know and what kind of journey are you looking to take your particular protagonist on for this story it's just it's so fun and
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah
Lindsay Franklin: the one time that I have written a full, like since I started doing this. In a professional space, I wrote a contemporary novel. And it's after, I mean, I'm just used to writing fantasy. I'm used to asking all these questions and thinking through these things. And it's so fun and I love it. But I had this one idea that was a YA contemporary novel, not speculative at all. My agent was like, yeah, write it. And so I did. and
Lindsay Franklin: My outline was done so fast and I wrote the story so fast and I just thought, okay, I wrote this, I conceptualized, outlined and wrote it in like five weeks.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: It was so fast and I just couldn't. kind of comprehend what had happened, but it was because I didn't have to ask any of these questions. I didn't have to think through anything.
Lindsay Franklin: There wasn't any of that puzzling that I normally do when I'm trying to figure out a story because these questions and these like kind of sub -genre considerations.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You already know.
Lindsay Franklin: shape, what the story is and where it's going. And it's not just about the backdrop that you're creating for a plot to exist in it. It should be. part of the story. And so when you just removed all of that and all all I was doing, I put it in quotes because it's not like it's it's not work.
Lindsay Franklin: It's still work to write a novel. So I'm not trying to denigrate what our you know contemporary author colleagues do at all. it' still It is still work. You still have to know how to tell a good story.
Lindsay Franklin: story um But it was just so weird to remove this part for me as somebody who is used to writing fantasy. And I think our probably our historical author people could really relate. to what we do as speculative fiction authors because ah they're not necessarily imagining those elements, but they have to research and and know what the historical reality was for so much of their worlds to make it realistic.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yep
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: and And that often is shaping where their stories go as well. So there's a lot more in common, I think, between that particular genre and what we do on on Planet Fantasy.
Lindsay Franklin: um
Paul Regnier: yeah
Lindsay Franklin: But yeah, I was just blown away. Like, whoa, all I have to do is think about the plot and the characters and like, that's it. The world just is our world when I'm writing contemporary. What? Super, super weird. But yeah. um So.
Lindsay Franklin: I want to talk a little bit, just very briefly, because I know i don't want to put Sarah like on the spot too much because I think she's the only one of us who's kind of dabbled in this genre. but you You mentioned it. You mentioned kind of that science fantasy space. And I feel like I've noticed a trend over the last ah several years in.
Lindsay Franklin: in the market where i I feel like I see more of this and I see it at Enclave with some of our books where we will sit there sometimes and say, what do we even classify this under because it kind of does you know like it it toes the line a little bit.
Lindsay Franklin: Like it kind of, you know, it's it's hard to determine if it's, is this science fiction? Is it fantasy? And so I do kind of wish there was more of a market space called science fantasy.
Lindsay Franklin: That's a, it's a helpful.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: term when we're talking to readers because I feel readers do. kind of they they will understand when we say that phrase but when it comes to placing something on a shelf that spot on the shelf doesn't exist yet um so much so we kind of have to pick is it more science fiction is it more fantasy where are we going to classify this but um so when you are writing
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Both. technology and magic or both science and magic. Where do you draw the line between them and how necessary is it to make that line?
Lindsay Franklin: very clear or do you feel like readers will uh accept especially in this particular sub -genre will they accept a lot of like blurriness with where that line is between science and magic
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, I think readers will accept a lot because you're already asking for suspended belief when you're writing fantasy elements, and even when you're writing science fiction. um And maybe Less so when you're writing hard sci -fi because you're really putting all the intricate details of how it works in there. um but I...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): my my science fiction. um Beneath false stars, I will tell readers because everything that i wrote up to there even though a dragon by any other other name has some of that tech in it and one of the stories that i'm working on it clearly has magic And science fiction, kind of like, I think. um because you mentioned the shinara that's kind of set in like a a
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): sort of a post -apocalyptic type of of setting so there's this technology that's there that exists even though the setting is very medieval and so
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yep.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you know, it's going to depend again on all those questions that you ask. But it is good to know that your readers, if they're coming over from sci -fi, more of a light sci -fi, or if they're coming from fantasy, if I say, hey, Beneath False Stars, it's science fiction, but it reads like a fantasy because they're superheroes.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And to me... I classify superheroes a lot. depending on like spider -man I'm gonna call that science fiction but can you call it fantasy Why not?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I mean, it is.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So because he gets.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): bitten by a radioactive spider you know so that's there's all that science is there and it's built in and yet then you have him interacting with other superheroes that have clearly magical powers, magical based powers.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And so.
Paul Regnier: Yeah, Thor.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you're really i think that comic world yeah it definitely
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It melded those very nicely so that I think it opened up that world to readers to be like, oh. That's science fiction. And I think dystopian did a similar thing because I mean, even like if you read hunger games.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I'm gonna - call that sci -fi because I call dystopian sci -fi.
Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But really... fantasy people are going to be like, oh, yeah. hunger games i like that and they're gonna think of it as a fantasy story um so I think that the doors opened nicely.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Right.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But... But you're right. It's like the the publishing side doesn't know how to categorize that.
Lindsay Franklin: Where does it go?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And the readers are like, yeah, exactly. And I think that's why the word speculative fiction is really also catching on in that.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): general market as well because It does encompass it, it encompasses it very well. It's like, yeah, well, it could be sci fi, it could be fantasy, you know, can I have a story where nightmares come to life because of magical elements because of the moon. And also they have a setting where There's a bunch of technology that can read what dreams you're having.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes, I can. And I will.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I've started it.
Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And and and that's because our audience is very primed for that suspended disbelief or or believing, you know, those things that it's like.
Lindsay Franklin: think
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, they come in like those people who already believe unicorns exist and and are looking at horses' foreheads and deciding, is it a real horse or is it actually a unicorn? So because we have that audience, they're much more likely to just...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): take it all in. and And I think even just call it fantasy, even even if it's science fiction as well, because I mean, I think most people. would call like the superhero stuff fantasy even though I would call a lot of it sci -fi just because ah you know, because I'm going to go into that publishing headspace of, well,
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): if I'm looking at the metrics of how it's measured technically, you know, and so for readers, they don't need to do that.
Lindsay Franklin: Right.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): They just need to be like, well, I like that stuff that just.
Paul Regnier: right
Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Doesn't happen here. It happens on Planet Fantasy. so
Lindsay Franklin: exactly exactly citizens of planet planet fantasy um it it's so it is frustrating like i understand why
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: the shelves sort of exist as they do and the categorizations are narrow it's it's really
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: about trying to reach the right readers right we're trying to make it easier for readers to find a story they might be interested in um however it does create a lot of problems i would also I i would classify superhero stuff under science fiction because that's where the industry usually puts it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Same thing with dystopian is usually under science fiction. um Steampunk gets put under science fiction. But there there's a lot of fantasy elements in most steampunk stories. Not all, but in a lot of them, I should say, not most.
Lindsay Franklin: um Maybe like 50 -50. But we have struggled so mightily at um Enclave to classify, for example, Trisha Goyer and Nathan Goyer's series.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): oh Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Work Chronicles series because it's World War II.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. Mhm.
Lindsay Franklin: fiction. Um, so it's, it's like very much, there's a lot of historical, you know, Tricia brought all her historical author expertise there, but there's kind of some steampunk and diesel punk type elements.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: And then, and her son, Nathan, her coauthor, you know, brought his speculative fit because he's a spec fit guy.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So he's brought that part into that story. And so you could say that's historical fantasy, but because it's got the steampunk diesel punk thing. science fiction.
Lindsay Franklin: And it's just like, where does this and there's some stuff that feels to me supernatural or straight up magical in the story.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So like, where do you even put that? Where do you put that story? And I'm not sure that readers who that story is for would particularly care how you classify it.
Paul Regnier: No.
Lindsay Franklin: But like, how do we find them and and get this book in front of them to say, hey, here's a story you'd like that is that's the challenge.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right. Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: And it's so tricky. And the science fantasy books have such a hard, a hard, um like, row to hoe, you know, to like, actually just find, find those, those readers.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): hello
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Uh -huh. Catch on! Catch you on time.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Exactly.
Paul Regnier: Well, you know. Sarah brought up an interesting point, though, if you look at the Marvel characters. It is a mashup.
Lindsay Franklin: you
Paul Regnier: right so you take like thor and loki that's pure fantasy you know and then you know, yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It is.
Lindsay Franklin: you
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Maybe Spider -Man is more sci -fi. i guess you could change it to a magical spider that bit him and then it would be fantasy but
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah You could.
Lindsay Franklin: this
Paul Regnier: Yeah, but it's radioactive, so it's sci -fi.
Lindsay Franklin: ah
Paul Regnier: But then...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.
Paul Regnier: if you if you look at um like doctor strange and scarlet witch that's very sort of supernatural urban fantasy because they're magic but they're living in our world but they have access to a supernatural realm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Paul Regnier: So it's just a big mashup. And no one cares.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It is.
Lindsay Franklin: It is.
Paul Regnier: right it's just like oh cool it's entertaining oh yeah they all go together sure yeah they don't bat an eye ah ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No one.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Nope.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Nope.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. Yep. Yep. Throw them all in the same story, same world, same movie, same whatever.
Paul Regnier: Right.
Lindsay Franklin: And and viewers are there for it. they're They're fine. They don't care. But yeah, it's just kind of it's kind of crazy. And then you think about like Iron Man and he is even more even more so than Spider -Man.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: I think he would be on the science -y side because the tech, they they explain more of the tech a little bit.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Paul Regnier: Sci -fi, yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: And even though it's not something that maybe exists in the real world, it kind of could happen in a way that maybe the radioactive spider, like not so much.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): over there.
Lindsay Franklin: um But yeah, so it's it's fascinating.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: I think we have a lot of genre conventions that matter to us a lot on the the publishing side or or the marketing side, simply because we're trying to find those readers.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: or
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes
Lindsay Franklin: find those viewers and genre is how we do that a lot. That shelf space is how we do that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: But If you can get your work in front of these these people. They don't care. They're just looking for, is this a story that I'm interested in?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Does it speak to me? Is it fun? Do I enjoy living on this planet for a while? And as long as the answer to that is yes, they're here for it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Um,
Paul Regnier: You know, there was sort of a little, this is sort of a random thought, but in the in the previous Spider -Man. movie. He has this... um sort of conflict with dr strange and dr strange is like hey i'm gonna take you into my weird supernatural world and because you're doing things i don't like
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Paul Regnier: And then Spider -Man figures it out. And then he says, oh, this is geometry or something where I think he said like, oh, like, oh, I get it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. What?
Paul Regnier: They're shapes. This is geometry. I know science. And it was this weird moment where I'm like, oh. So you're saying that. the this supernatural realm.
Paul Regnier: like follows the laws of geometry and math. I'm like. Okay, that's an interesting statement. And I don't even think you're supposed to look into it that much, but I just thought like... oh, what are the writers trying to say here?
Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.
Paul Regnier: But then it made me think because like I do a little, I play a little music too. And I met this guy who was a guitarist, really good guitarist. And then his day job was like, he was like this IT tech.
Paul Regnier: And I remember talking to him like, That's weird. That's like you're you're using both halves of your brain. like What is going on? how you know You're a creative, but you're also very left brain.
Lindsay Franklin: me
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Let's open up.
Paul Regnier: And he's like, well, you know, if you look at math. or if you look at music and you break it down.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): try to make them do it.
Lindsay Franklin: and
Paul Regnier: There's a point at which music meets math.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: And you can actually almost define it in mathematical terms.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: and you know my mind was exploding i'm like wait hold on i have to
Lindsay Franklin: but
Paul Regnier: Sit with that thought for a second. What do you say? But it is interesting. There is like sort of this mathematical like explanation of music, especially if you get into symphonies and all that kind of, I don't know.
Lindsay Franklin: True. Hm? mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The other thing, though, that I would talk about with this, if you've got this in any care.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: So random thought of the day for this podcast is.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. No. I love that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): it I think it goes. yeah because i
Lindsay Franklin: I love that. And it's, yeah, go ahead.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh, because I i always say... Science is magic that we figured out.
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm It's true.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And so I feel like that falls under that very well. And there are a lot of people who love math, who find it magical in a way.
Paul Regnier: m
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and i
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I see that. especially when you're talking about with the music and um for me I'm not necessarily going to delve into the math that much, but i I love also that parallel with, I think it's like, well, how are we going to explain in a sci -fi Spider -Man all these multiverses?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): science you know we'll bring in the science fiction of it and so that really makes sense for Peter's character to see that. And so I think.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I don't know. I think science and and magic live together a lot more than we might think that they do. And I have said to many Christians, like like you were talking about earlier, Paul, when you're in that sphere of church and it's like, oh.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh yeah, you write fantasy, you don't write the theological memoirs and whatnot.
Lindsay Franklin: but
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's nice. but it's just Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: Serious books.
Paul Regnier: That's nice.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): it's a similar thing it's like Magic and science. they They embrace each other a lot more than I think. people who have grown up. I want to see or do see.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): necessarily.
Paul Regnier: yeah just bring up quantum entanglement and say like yeah Explain that to me.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm. Oh my gosh. Whew!
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right?
Lindsay Franklin: Crazy. I think that these kind of like mathematical or scientific underpinnings that exists in, I think, all forms of art, to be honest with you, because we have our very kind of technical things um when it comes to writing stories.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: But I can remember standing at my dad's drafting table and he's an illustrator. He draws, you know, and and. I would ask him sometimes as a little girl, you know, to explain what he's doing.
Lindsay Franklin: And so much, he wouldn't even call himself a math guy or a science guy. really at all, but so much of his explanation of what he's doing would come down to angles and geometry and perspective and this and that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): over here Was it good? Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: And it is very mathematical and yet he's creating this beautiful, like a visually beautiful thing that it doesn't look like he's doing math with any of that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): it vari mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: But he is. And he, it's funny, I mentioned that I did not inherit that that gift, but my nephew did. My nephew got his grandpa's gift of, you know, being an illustrator, being an artist.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): o
Lindsay Franklin: and When that kid was like three or four years old, I'm looking at him drawing, and he's a spec fit guy, my nephew, he's he's grown now, but um and he would be drawing dragons, but like from an aerial perspective.
Lindsay Franklin: So this is a four -year -old.
Paul Regnier: oh
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mhm.
Lindsay Franklin: drawing a dragon flying through the air but like as you would see it from above
Paul Regnier: From another dragon.
Lindsay Franklin: And.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: Exactly. Or somebody who's who's above all the dragons or something.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: I don't know, but super cool. And he's kind of getting, I mean, is it perfect? No, he was four. But is he getting the idea of what those angles look like and and all of that?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Good.
Lindsay Franklin: accurately Yes, because that's how his little artist brain works. And I remember pointing this out to my dad and being like, look, look what your grandson is doing.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.
Lindsay Franklin: Like he got your thing. And my dad is so funny because he's a career artist right up until he retired. Like he worked in art his whole his whole career. And he was like. um started saying, well, you know, there's like this connection between artists and um I think it was electricians.
Lindsay Franklin: There's like something about an artist's brain where it. it Crosses over very.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.
Lindsay Franklin: like well into that there's some research about this or something so from the time my nephew's little he's like trying to encourage him to be an electrician i was like dad, what are you doing?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I can get two days to figure it out.
Paul Regnier: Huh.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): we expected
Paul Regnier: um
Lindsay Franklin: Like this kid, this kid is an artist like you, but he's like, pick a stable career. You know, he's just, it's like wanting his, his grandson to have an easier time.
Paul Regnier: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: I just always thought that was so funny. I'm like, no, he's got the gift. You can't, you can't squelch the gift.
Paul Regnier: ah ah
Lindsay Franklin: But yeah, there's, there's definitely something there about that artistic side kind of crossing over really well into the technical. aspects.
Lindsay Franklin: um
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Totally agreed. oh yeah
Lindsay Franklin: Yes. So spoiler alert for our listeners. um We probably have like a year's worth of episodes that we could talk about um on Planet Fantasy with Sarah.
Lindsay Franklin: We could bring her back for like 20 episodes and and discuss all of these things. um But we're starting to kind of like get into that ah running long sort of space that we love to tiptoe into.
Paul Regnier: mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: So we are going to bring.
Lindsay Franklin: sarah back for a second episode and we're going to talk more about yay we're going to talk more about some of these things but before we do that i want to talk really briefly because we haven't mentioned it we've talked about all these other sub -genres of fantasy we haven't really talked about secondary world fantasy or high fantasy as much yet and for a lot of people that's the first thing they think of when you say fantasy they think of that entirely separate world and i think we've touched on it a lot in discussing how these other sub -genres are different but um just to kind of give high fantasy its due and its proper space we've we've got to talk about it directly a little bit um so kind of the inverse of what we talked about with the portal or the urban fantasy how do you as the storyteller
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): favor Yay!
Paul Regnier: Yay. yay
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): very
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): else be
Lindsay Franklin: introduce your reader. to the fantastical when that fantastical is normal for all of your characters?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): do that
Lindsay Franklin: Or do we always insert a character? Do we always need to have a character in our story who doesn't fully understand the the magic and and that kind of supernatural element so that we can unpack that with our readers?
Lindsay Franklin: Or can we just dive in and never really? explain the way that any of those things work or unpack it in ah in a kind of organic story way with the reader. So how do you all handle that in your high fantasy stories?
Paul Regnier: Oh boy, it's harder.
Lindsay Franklin: yeah
Paul Regnier: it's it's I've done a couple and it's definitely harder, but it's...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that
Paul Regnier: There is. um There is something nice, though, about like all the characters just acting like this is business as usual in the fantasy world.
Paul Regnier: And they just kind of do things and you're like, oh, OK, I guess that's normal here.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): natural be positive
Paul Regnier: um Mine, I would say, I mean, I definitely don't write like Um, high fantasy or epic fantasy or anything like that it's just it's more playful light -hearted fantasy what i write so i tend to i mean i don't go into like
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Very good.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Stay.
Paul Regnier: Shakespearean type of narration or dialogue for anything so I keep it very similar I guess I'm not using modern slang or anything but you know um Yeah, I try to keep the the the language very...
Paul Regnier: close, I guess, to common speak.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): If that is.
Paul Regnier: as it were. Um, But yeah, I just, um there is something fun about like. just this is the normal everyday world and magic exists and yeah of course right i can like do i have this magical ability um one thing that i like to do is um in a lot of mine i don't do necessarily like oh the wizard studies spells and he has a spell book and this is how you do it you do this incantation
Paul Regnier: um i like to do it where it's there's almost like a natural magic that flows through the world
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that possible
Paul Regnier: And it's almost like for some people, it's an innate ability. So I almost treat it like. like we ever all of us have natural abilities right there's some people that are just
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah
Paul Regnier: naturally awesome athletes, right?
Paul Regnier: some there's some like big dudes that are great at football or boxing and it's like okay you're genetically like predisposed to this so that's how i like to treat magic you know it's like hey yeah you you can like strive and do it but like this guy is already like casting fireballs at age three so you know good luck catching up with him so you know i i kind of like that i kind of like that you can hone your abilities and and it could be like there could be someone who has natural gifting that he just like
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's good you other think in they saw here
Paul Regnier: Treats it you know like nothing and doesn't
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): are you
Paul Regnier: and where the guy that's more like studious or you know um more um
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): would be
Paul Regnier: nose to the grindstone on this stuff can surpass that person just like here right you know um but uh yeah so that that's how i deal with like the magic side of things.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.
Paul Regnier: Usually I just find that that's more appealing. um naturally to me um Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that really answers that question. but that's kind of like the way i approach it sarah probably has a much better
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Here we go.
Paul Regnier: definition or of how she does it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that's That's a lot of pressure. Um... Um.
Lindsay Franklin: Okay, Sarah, be brilliant. Go.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.
Paul Regnier: so sta away is okay So, Sarah, one thing one last thing before you go. I do like the other element would be creatures. and come in And I love whenever I have creatures, I love to have them.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh yeah.
Paul Regnier: mostly to be talking if they're magical. whether it be dragons or griffins or whatever it is.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Paul Regnier: I like that aspect of it too, where like you could just go up to like an animal and they're like hey how's it going you know they just start talking and it's like whoa this is cool and then they have certain abilities and that's that interplay is really fun for me
Lindsay Franklin: That's so fun.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): All right.
Paul Regnier: Um, Yeah, so that's it. That's the last thing I wanted to add. Okay. Oh. Back to you, Sarah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Ew. So. high fantasy. um otherworld fantasy is probably arguably my favorite. um I just, I love it and I love to write it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um I actually never thought I would write like. urban fantasy or any of that it's so funny that i just no wait actually i do like it um but i love the high fantasy and i love the epic fantasy and for me i guess
Lindsay Franklin: ha
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): What I'm thinking might be... that biggest connection because I don't think you always need a character. that doesn't know the world. um it's it's totally fine if you have one that doesn't and it works really well in many genres when you have one that doesn't and different stories like we are have already talked about are going to call for different characters knowing different things and um All of it is good. And so I think For me, it's kind of like.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): the piece of having The norm? in the abnormal really helps. Like so far. All of my stories, gravity has existed.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So, you know, that's not a thing that I have to describe or or tell people about.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Ha ha.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): or you know or
Paul Regnier: I wish I could stop floating around.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): right i know take apart yeah i do have to deal with gravity in my sci -fi but i don't in my fantasy um but yeah i so
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But that's like... Things like that. Like, okay, we went to something that they called a forest. And when she says that a tree is as big around as a full -grown griffin, okay, that's going to give people the flavor that it's different.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but also there's a tree. And it's in a forest.
Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So I think. when you choose Which elements are going to be... your cool, fun, supernatural elements.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's again, it's all that brainstorming beforehand, that world building of asking the questions. And then you're like, okay, but what is normal? Because those are the pieces that you're really going to bring your readers in with, you know, that's their magic carpet, if you will.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And then you. spell out some of the different things on top of it and sprinkling those two things together is going to help your readers stay grounded in something that they know and understand while also being like oh this is totally different and weird and i love it hopefully um so that they're
Lindsay Franklin: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you know, getting excited about what other pieces of this story might be different, what else might be unexpected. And I do tend to drop readers into it. when i'm doing that and some writers uh sorry some readers like that and some do not and that's okay um because i do have i'll get some where it's the reviews on specifically like my beneath false stars i have a quite a few reviews that it's like didn't really get the world building and then so
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): similar number of reviews that are like loved the world building. I'm like, okay. So I was speaking to somebody, the the people that like.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: Right. Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: it's it'll yep taste It all comes down to taste.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: and and Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It really. It's like if you like to be dropped into it and kind of figure and feel out the world as you're going through as that reader and being like, oh.
Lindsay Franklin: he
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's totally different. I didn't expect that kind of fun, magical thing. Oh, the water's purple. Fine. We'll go with it. You know, and does it have other qualities that are different?
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You know, so it'll bring your audience to asking other questions about it. Okay.
Lindsay Franklin: he
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): If trees are going to be compared to griffins, what else about the tree? So when they start actually whispering. Okay. it's it's it's weird to the character in the book so it's weird to me as the reader too but if it's not weird to the character in the book then the reader is going to be like oh Okay, that's a fun thing. um So I think that is a good way to bring readers in is to not make everything.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): completely different because a that's a lot of work for you as a writer
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And B, it's a lot of work for a reader to... to have to you know okay nothing is the same i'm in an escher drawing i don't know what to do um So.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that sometimes works like labyrinth you know the usher drawing at the end of that to bring that back around um but yeah so and and then the other thing too is you know bringing in
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: Yep. Yep. ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): with your characters, I think showcasing their weaknesses, your main character's weaknesses really, really helps to bring readers into the world because if your character is like, yeah, everybody else has this innate ability that they can snipe things.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I do not.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And if your main character has that difference or that weakness, that is another way to bring the readers into that world and not make it feel like, oh, yes, I'm explaining how my world works to the readers and I don't need to. Because then that's a way that your character is feeling like, well, I'm different from everybody else because or, you know. Maybe they have a friend who's different from everybody else because, or maybe, you know, I'm the only kid who has a wolf that doesn't talk.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So yay for Mute Wolves.
Paul Regnier: ah
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But, um you know, so. So all of those kinds of things that could be considered a character weakness or a flaw or things like that, that also helps to really build in that genre. But it also gives your reader that connection to the character because they're like, oh, I'm a flawed person, too. I have things, you know, that I have weaknesses, too. And so it really helps your reader connect to your characters. and then Secondarily? I guess to the world. so
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that's that's my hopefully that was genius enough for you
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: That was...
Paul Regnier: That was genius, absolute genius.
Lindsay Franklin: High enough on the brilliance scale. We accept. We accept your answer.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh, good. Okay. Yay.
Paul Regnier: You know.
Lindsay Franklin: Yay.
Paul Regnier: One last thing I thought about, too, is Tolkien did sort of a, I don't want to call it a cheat, but with The Hobbit.
Lindsay Franklin: eat
Paul Regnier: The Hobbit is used to his own little shire and his own little house.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh yeah! Yes.
Paul Regnier: So he's almost like a portal character in a way, because all of a sudden, once he ventures out, he's like, oh, I've never been to these lands.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: Yep.
Paul Regnier: what I've never seen these creatures. I've heard rumors. what is What are these orcs and this and that?
Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: And oh, i don't I've never ventured into this land before. So they do have to explain a lot to him, although he lives in that world.
Lindsay Franklin: isn
Paul Regnier: But it makes sense, right?
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.
Paul Regnier: It's kind of like someone just sticks to their own little house and they don't venture then.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, yeah, it works.
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm
Paul Regnier: you know you You travel overseas. Whoa, what are all these different cultures and these different languages? So, yeah, that's that's another way, I guess, you could do it.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: That can absolutely work. And that's actually like a perfect segue into what I was going to say where you can have, I feel like this is how I handled this in the Story Peddler books where Tanwen, my main character, is familiar with the way that kind of the the art magic or her storytelling magic works, but only in a very narrow way, just the very narrow way that she's been taught.
Paul Regnier: Hmm.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): his
Lindsay Franklin: Like she obviously knows that strands come out of her hands when she tells stories.
Paul Regnier: Mm.
Lindsay Franklin: This is what she's been doing to make her living and what her mentor has been teaching her and all that. And it is that kind of um innate inborn gifting that you were talking about, Paul, that you, I like to do that as well with my my magic abilities, where it's just, you know, some people have it, some people don't, and it's an inborn kind of thing.
Lindsay Franklin: or I will describe that sometimes in my world building class as like extended physics, where it's just this kind of like piece of physics that exists in this imaginary world.
Lindsay Franklin: But it's it's a similar kind of thing to like our natural laws that we have here. That's kind of how I like to handle um magic. But for Tanwen, she only knows this very narrow view.
Lindsay Franklin: And because it's part of the story, um she learns more over time as she's introduced to other artists and they use their gifts differently. and she understands that, oh, like, we've actually been very suppressed in this kingdom I grew up in.
Lindsay Franklin: And, you know, I haven't been allowed to use my gifting in the way that it probably was intended to be used. And then, you know, as the series goes on, exploring ways that, you know, my villain character has used the same kind of supernatural gifting in really bad, nefarious ways and what, you know, that character decides to do with those things.
Lindsay Franklin: So it's... I think my one of my takeaways from our discussion today has sort of been like, The story really dictates what you do or maybe some of the choices that you make with your world building. It could kind of go either way, like it's a chicken and egg thing. Do you decide what the world is going to be first or do you know what story you're telling and then you make the world kind of fit and it could go either way. But all of these fantasy questions, fantasy world questions that we ask ourselves really.
Lindsay Franklin: like should marry quite closely with the story. And it should all feel kind of like intentional. like there's ah There's a reason why we we built the world this way and and why the story is unfolding the way that it is. And that's another thing that I always say in my world building workshop is, if you are going to mess with things like physics and gravity, don't just create a world that has 25 % of the Earth's gravity because it would be fun.
Lindsay Franklin: like to have your characters floating around.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): right
Lindsay Franklin: I mean, you could, you could, because you would have people sort of like floating and and doing their thing. But like, if that doesn't have anything to do with the story, you probably don't want to do that to yourselves or your readers.
Lindsay Franklin: That's going to become very tedious. And sometimes we see that in sort of the, you know, very green work that will sometimes come across our.
Lindsay Franklin: desks as freelance editors Sarah is also a freelance editor or we see this in conference pitches and that sort of thing where there's a lot of that speculative world building that I can kind of tell as a story architect myself I can look at that and go okay this is this element's just in here because it's kind of fun um but it doesn't really have anything to do with the story you probably don't
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: want to include too much of that in your story. Everything should sort of be intentional or have a purpose, like why why this exists in your world the way that it does. And you can be as creative and out there and like imaginative with those elements. I feel just as long as there's a reason why you're including it in there.
Lindsay Franklin: um with the caveat that sometimes you can just have something that's a little fun for no reason like oh look my my planet has two moons or whatever because why not but you know if it doesn't doesn't mean that you have to change the way your characters physically move throughout the entire story then then it's just a fun little detail and you're not setting yourself up for too much um too much heartache with with that that little piece of uh like let's change physics but
Paul Regnier: Hey, you know what book did that well, though?
Lindsay Franklin: Anyway. ah What's that?
Paul Regnier: Was the john the John Carter series. Did you ever read those old sci -fi books? by Burroughs.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I have not.
Lindsay Franklin: I've... No, I have not read the books.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i
Paul Regnier: Ugh.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): them but I haven't heard of them.
Paul Regnier: They're so awesome.
Lindsay Franklin: No.
Paul Regnier: I mean, at this point, they're over like 100 years old, which seems strange for science fiction.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Wow. Crazy.
Paul Regnier: but they're so good.
Lindsay Franklin: crazy.
Paul Regnier: I mean, the movie wasn't great, but the the books, especially those first three with John Carter, but he had that where he went to Mars.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): okay
Paul Regnier: And of course, there's this whole Martian civilization, but the gravity was different.
Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.
Paul Regnier: But it gave him almost like... sort of like superhuman so he's able to the gravity was there so he was able to like leap and go on these crazy long leaps and
Lindsay Franklin: But see.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): like super Damn.
Lindsay Franklin: It makes sense.
Paul Regnier: and fight so he was able to do these cool fighting moves because he was it was like it was very sword and planet you know genre so um
Lindsay Franklin: It makes sense.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes
Lindsay Franklin: Yes.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm
Lindsay Franklin: See I love that.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.
Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. I love that. But that's that's a perfect example because he used it in the story.
Paul Regnier: But...
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: It wasn't just there for the sake of it.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.
Paul Regnier: Yes.
Lindsay Franklin: He used it and also was thinking on the science side. Is gravity, you have to ask that question. If you're going to set something on a different planet, is gravity going to be the same?
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: And no, if it's not on Earth, it's not going to be exactly the same.
Paul Regnier: All right.
Lindsay Franklin: So yeah, that's actually a great example of making those kinds of huge fundamental changes, but doing it in a way that serves the story or that arises naturally.
Paul Regnier: Yeah.
Lindsay Franklin: So excellent example, Paul. I love it.
Paul Regnier: ah
Lindsay Franklin: And I think that probably brings us to, we have to very reasonably cut it off at this time, but we are going to be back with a part two with Sarah. We're going to talk more about different planet fantasy things.
Paul Regnier: Yay.
Lindsay Franklin: So thank you so, so much to Sarah for joining us and being part of our. fantasy round table uh thank you to paul of course always with the off -the -cuff brilliance we love it uh yes so um and thank you everybody for listening and sticking with us a little longer than usual but um you know we are all citizens of planet fantasy and we just love to talk about these things so we're going to be back in our next episode with more or So thank you all so much for listening.
Paul Regnier: Bye.
Lindsay Franklin: Bye.
S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Bye.
