Episode 24: Fantasy Round Table with Guest S.D. Grimm, Part II

Transcript

Lindsay Franklin: Hello and welcome to Quilling It. I am Lindsay Franklin.

Paul Regnier: And I'm Paul Regner.

Lindsay Franklin: And today we are back. We're back for round two of our fantasy round table with our fantastic. guests, the fabulous Estee Grimm. Around here, we call her Sarah.

Lindsay Franklin: Hello and welcome again, Sarah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): hello Thank you for having me.

Lindsay Franklin: Yay, of course. We had so much fun last episode talking about fantasy um and all of these amazing different subgenres of fantasy, why we love this genre so much.

Lindsay Franklin: And we just have so many things to say ah here on Planet Fantasy. So we decided to come back for a part two. We've got more things to share. Yay.

Paul Regnier: Yes, we couldn't fit Sarah in just one episode.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and

Paul Regnier: We had to make...

Lindsay Franklin: No.

Paul Regnier: Two.

Lindsay Franklin: That's right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): They let me come back!

Lindsay Franklin: Sarah is a very tiny person, but she's got a lot to say. So we couldn't fit her in just one episode. So ah we are back. And I am super excited. Some of the things we've got to talk about today. So it's going to be fun. Um,

Lindsay Franklin: fantasy is such a cool genre i think it's one of those genres that has a lot of tropes baked in just to the the genre expectations. It has a lot. Mystery is kind of that way as well. There are certain things that even if somebody doesn't consider themselves a fantasy reader or a fantasy viewer or whatever, if you say fantasy, I feel like there are certain things that are automatically going to pop to mind for everybody, um even if it's not one of their their top genres.

Lindsay Franklin: ah so ah you know quests and maybe some of the fantastical creatures like dragons and magic and stuff like that. There's just a lot that is kind of. baked into the reader expectations with this genre. So we thought it would be kind of fun to spend some time talking about tropes in fantasy. um So I am going to kick this off asking both of you about your favorite fantasy tropes to write.

Lindsay Franklin: So not necessarily as a reader or a viewer, but what are your favorite tropes to write?

Paul Regnier: So I will say I'm a sucker for the reluctant hero.

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

Paul Regnier: i will I will often do that. i I'm trying to think if there's one time i I haven't.

Lindsay Franklin: think

Paul Regnier: I feel like I do it every time.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: I just love that, right? um And I like almost like, I don't know if this is... technically a trope, but the unexpected hero. um i kind of like I kind of like that like twist on things where he's not like the victorious warrior.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: it's like Oh, well, of course he's gonna be the hero. you know. I kind of like the unexpected person. um But yeah, so so that's a big one. um uh the mentor uh i like to kind of play with some of these like if i

Lindsay Franklin: me

Paul Regnier: You know, we've seen the mentor character. I don't know if that's really a trope or just a common character, but um I like to have mentors, but like slightly different.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, sure.

Paul Regnier: um i like how ah Marvel did. kind of a slightly different mentor with on -Man. He had Tony Stark, who wasn't the typical, you know, wise, like...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: you know caring fatherly mentor he was kind of like hey figure it out kid i'm busy you know So it was. It was kind of a cool because he was the mentor, but it was a different twist. So I like when there's kind of a slight twist on it. you know i guess like obi -wan would be the classic you know, mentor character. but That was back in the 70s when... you know that was still kind of like oh you know we haven't seen that this much you know we haven't in movies but now it's like we've seen it so much Kind of have to have a slightly.

Paul Regnier: unique or new twist to it, I think. Or else people will be like, oh, I've seen this a hundred times. So. i do like when we when we because i i do like tropes i mean tropes are fun But I think especially now when people have read.

Paul Regnier: the same trope so many times it's good to have a kind of slightly unique spin on those things Um, Found Family is another one that I really like and I do quite a bit.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Um, just like...

Lindsay Franklin: That's one of mine too. I love it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Same.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: I'm just a sucker for that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Same.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No.

Paul Regnier: friends kind of coming together on a journey and growing closer and working through all their

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: you know differences and different personalities kind of clashing but then also kind of becoming complementary um i love the I love the found family trope. that's ah That's a big one for me. So yeah, those are those are the ones that come to mind.

Paul Regnier: For me.

Lindsay Franklin: I love that. How about you, Sarah?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I also love the found family trope, so Paul, you took my answer. Thanks.

Paul Regnier: yeah Sorry.

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and and No, it's totally fine. Like that's a trope though. That doesn't have to be just fantasy. So I was like, I don't know, should I say it?

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: True.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But I think it. I think it definitely is part of the genre a lot because you have all of these groups of people a lot of times coming together for their quests so yeah i love that trope clearly if you heard the first episode with me i love animals so i love

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: For sure.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um all of the mythology is a huge one for me i and fairy tale retellings so I love to go into the fairy tale retellings. I like the familiar ones and the obscure ones, um like that no one's heard of. and I also love the mythology and I like to blend them so that's fun too because I like to just find

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): cool things that I'm like, oh, hey, what would be a different take on Beauty and the Beast? Because that's so, you know, that's done a lot. Or what would be a fun thing that... you know i've never heard of before that you know would spark a cool idea so i love the retellings and i like them generally to be fairly like loose but um

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but always with seeds that people can pick out and be like oh wait i get that reference so

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Hopefully there are people out there reading my stuff going, I get that reference because that would be my favorite.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And um and I know there are because sometimes I get emails from you guys and you're like, I saw that. And I was like, yes, someone saw it.

Paul Regnier: yeah okay

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): so um

Lindsay Franklin: I love that. That's the best when somebody's like, my favorite is when somebody says.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yay! yay

Lindsay Franklin: That was so funny. I laughed at that joke. I was like, oh, someone did.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yay! yea

Lindsay Franklin: Yay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but

Lindsay Franklin: Oh, love it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes Yep, it's my favorite.

Lindsay Franklin: Yay. Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um and i like um i like what you were saying too about the mentor characters paul because um I'm I remember one of the ones like from Bleach was just like a cat. He was one of the mentor characters, just like this black cat. And so it's cool to have, like you're saying the.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): the different things that spin the normal tropes and make them a little bit more fun or more fresh. That's always cool. I love a good um romantic thread.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): in My fantasy so there's there's a trope that you will So far, all we see in something of mine. um I don't know that I'll ever step away from doing that because I do love it and I write YA, so they do expect it a lot.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and um And that is a fun trope for me. And then I also... um

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Being slightly controversial. I don't mind a bit of damsel in distress trope.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): as long as um She also is strong in her own strengths.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): uh because i like to write both my male and female characters as strong characters. because i Mean I have a son. I have two sons actually but one One doesn't read yet.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um And a daughter.

Lindsay Franklin: which is

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So I want them both to be able to read my stories and feel like, yeah, these characters are really strong. I don't want to harp on anyone, but I got mad sometimes at Suzanne Collins when I was reading about PETA.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I was like, can you just make him a little stronger, please? I don't, I mean, come on.

Paul Regnier: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Does he have to stumble over every twig in the forest? So I wasn't mad at PETA. I was mad at Suzanne. So, but anyway.

Lindsay Franklin: Because he really was, he was a good hero, but he was like.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I... He... I really liked him!

Lindsay Franklin: Come on, man. Get it together.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, I know.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, because we we love PETA, but yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): There were just some times that I was like, Peeta, Candace still thinks you're breathing too loud.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. but

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Just, just, just. breathe through the nose man you know so anyway those are a couple of things that i was like

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I want to make sure that in my stories, if I'm having strong male characters, it doesn't mean my female characters are weak. And if I'm having strong female characters, it doesn't mean my male characters are weak. So I like all of those tropes. And then, of course, werewolves.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Just...

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. I love this. i I love that one of Sarah's favorite tropes, as I was throwing this question out. I was immediately going, I know what one of Sarah's is going to be the animals, the animals, because it's such a favorite of hers that it's like actually part of.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: her brand at this point. Like it's part of Sarah's brand that if you're reading ah an SD Grimm fantasy novel, you can expect to see.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: animals ah doing things in in that book.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's... True.

Lindsay Franklin: So yeah, I love that, though. That's awesome. That's awesome. And my my answer, I don't even know if this is actually like a a trope per se, but it's kind of one of those things that has become.

Lindsay Franklin: part of my brand, which is exploring. story in fantastical, you know.

Lindsay Franklin: ways which I can kind of only do the way I want to in the fantasy genre and so that's that's kind of one for me I guess that the trope beneath that would sort of be metafiction which is not it's it's not like a hugely popular trope the way that found family is another one of my my favorite ones but it's one that I personally love and I think it's because I've been in publishing for so many years and working as an editor and and doing doing that as That's my main work, right?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): who

Lindsay Franklin: And so I spend so much time in story, in the world of story, thinking about story, fixing stories, publishing stories, publishing stories, writing stories.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So it's on my my mind all the time. I'm thinking about stories. So when I go to build a fantasy world or think about a new story idea, that's just kind of what. comes out a lot and so um you know metafiction stories about stories or stories within stories or you know that's that's kind of what uh what that means and i have a lot of fun with that um

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: It would be really fun in a...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You do it well.

Lindsay Franklin: Well, thank you. Well, thank you.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: um It would be really fun in a sci -fi context too, but sci -fi scares me. I'm not gonna lie. um I love reading it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Same.

Lindsay Franklin: Writing it scares the the daylights out of me because, man. I just, I'm afraid I'm going to like get it wrong. I like when I can make up my own details, make my own rules.

Paul Regnier: Well, good dude. just do science fantasy like me don't do don't do the hard science fantasy stuff

Lindsay Franklin: There you go.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Or science fiction stuff, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: That is the answer.

Paul Regnier: You know, Ready Player One.

Lindsay Franklin: DUDE

Paul Regnier: if you've If you've read that, that one has quite a bit of meta stuff in a side.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, it does

Paul Regnier: sci -fi context.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: so

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, and I feel like

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And 80s stuff, too.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, a lot of 80s nostalgia and 80s movies and all that good stuff.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Yes. Yep.

Paul Regnier: It's all... thrown in.

Lindsay Franklin: I love that.

Paul Regnier: to the blender.

Lindsay Franklin: And I kind of feel like lit RPG sort of is, it kind of sits in that.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, kind of.

Lindsay Franklin: that space too, where it's like a little bit in between kind of the sci -fi and fantasy.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: So I don't, maybe that's the way I could, that could be my gateway into science fiction.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Maybe, I don't know.

Paul Regnier: Hey.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. but

Paul Regnier: Hey, you could be like me and Sarah. We're delving into the lit RPG.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, I was going to say join us.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, one of us. One of us.

Lindsay Franklin: I don't know love it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: That's such a fun. Fun subgenre. We didn't even touch on that one and yesterday, but.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): is I know and I wanted to, but I was like, I have so much to say.

Lindsay Franklin: i Again, it could be its own episode.

Paul Regnier: Hey. Hey, we just started this episode. Sarah should say a few words.

Lindsay Franklin: ah okay well so yeah what is what is your top favorite kind of lit rpg specific trope or lit something you see not maybe exclusive to lit rpg but something you see a lot in lit rpg because this is an emerging subgenre so some of our listeners and might not be as familiar so since this is something that you guys are both uh you know tiptoeing into um what is something that you love about that subgenre specifically

Paul Regnier: Yeah, I think it's, um I mean, if you've... if you've been a video gamer you know for any period of time you've just you've um I guess you just sort of absorbed all those common game mechanics kind of things.

Paul Regnier: and But you don't you haven't seen those in stories too much until... like fairly recently so all of a sudden You're reading a book and the the main character is like...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.

Paul Regnier: you know advancing levels and abilities you're like oh wait a second i i know this world

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh I get that.

Paul Regnier: This world isn't usually in books. So I think that's kind of fun for people to see. Because, I mean, you read any fantasy book and the main characters are always getting better, right?

Paul Regnier: They're always improving.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: There's a character arc. But I think this is almost that. um that thing you get from video games where it's like so So. Almost not in your face.

Paul Regnier: What's a better way of saying it? But it's like, boom, level one, boom, level two.

Lindsay Franklin: Mhm. There's like a structure to it.

Paul Regnier: It's like, oh. Yeah, right?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): it Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: It's it's highly structured.

Paul Regnier: it's It's more concrete in a way.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: It's like...

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: you know, your dexterity has increased by 10 with this sword. You're like, whoa, okay, cool. You know, um but you found this magical object and now, you know, your armor is, you know, plus 10. Stuff like that is kind of like.

Paul Regnier: I guess it's maybe achievement oriented or something where you feel like, okay, wow, this there's this character that I'm totally building or i'm seeing I'm seeing them build in their abilities and skills.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: And this is pretty awesome. I get to see their journey. Because if you've played video games, you've taken that journey on your own.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: And that's a big part of what keeps you going. I remember when, what was it, World of Warcraft came out. I can't believe that game is still going. Decades long, you know, it's insane because I played it when it first came out But that was one of the things you create this character

Lindsay Franklin: it's crazy

Paul Regnier: And then you get to see it like advance and get like new armor, new weapons.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: And there's just something very um addictive about that. and It's designed to be so.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Paul Regnier: um But, you know, it's just like, wow, I remember when this character had nothing but peasant clothes and now look at them.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right? Right.

Paul Regnier: They're in armor and they've got this.

Lindsay Franklin: Okay.

Paul Regnier: glowing sword yeah i don't know it's there's just something really cool and appealing about that and i guess it it all goes back to the whole character arc and character development

Lindsay Franklin: So fun.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: kind of thought but Anyways, those are just my initial thoughts.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: What do you think, Sarah?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I think it lends so well also to that reader expectation. because the reader the reading the lit rpg and then you don't necessarily have to say you know in any subtle way oh they gained this sword and it's making them feel more powerful like the sword of truth and terry goodkind or whatever when he gets that he's got to like describe what the sword does you don't really have to do that in the lit rpg you just be like

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you have advanced you have found a magical item you know and then and then the readers are like oh okay i understand what that means and

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i come from it. From kind of a different angle because I'm a weirdo. I mean i'm I'm a weirdo, but I'm a weirdo also in this regard that I. was never good at video games. And so, um, I was the person who...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Was always Luigi. um See, you all know what that means.

Paul Regnier: You're not Mario.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I'm always Luigi.

Paul Regnier: You're Luigi.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And i always my turns were never nearly as long as anyone else's. There was that first jump. and Then the second jump my whole body would jump with it I could never get over that second jump.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So I just kind of became the person who watched other people play video games. I could do arcade games.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm. Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i could I could do some really good arcade games, but video games... I've never been good at them. So I actually enjoy like. um why Why am I blanking?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): on the name of the very famous star wars knights of the old republic okay so knights of the old republic i wanted the story so i literally found someone who was playing light side on youtube and i just watched them play And I've done that with several videos.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: but ah Love it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's like I'm watching a Nightwing one right now. like and And so I'm like...

Paul Regnier: Those are really popular, though. You watch the playthrough.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you watch the playthrough and I'm like, this is my type of video game.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): This is like my way of being on a boat. I'd rather be watching the people on the tube and just enjoying the boat ride while someone else drives. I don't want to be the driver and I don't want to be in the tube if you're going to try to knock me off.

Paul Regnier: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): If it's a pleasure ride, sure, I'll be on the tube. But if it's like trying to knock me off, I only have one or two in me and then I'm done.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): so Same thing with the video game. i could I could not get over that second jump, no matter how hard I jumped with it. um and so for me I didn't really play video games, but I play D and &D, and it's a very similar kind of structure.

Lindsay Franklin: e

Paul Regnier: Yeah, right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You're leveling up, you're...

Lindsay Franklin: Yep. Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): creating the characters you're building that so again for me the found family trope comes in usually in lit rpg and i love it

Lindsay Franklin: It is.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And then um the. Because I'm a theater minor, I love acting. I was going to be an actress.

Paul Regnier: h

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): My wonderful, amazing husband, who I love, did not understand me kissing other people.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So I...

Lindsay Franklin: That's fair. that's fair

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I gave that up. And then I was like. Why don't I be a writer? Because then I get to just create all my own characters and be all of them while I'm writing. So um that's kind of where I went with it. And I love it. And I'm happy to be here. But um similar thing, like with D and &D, I was like, whoa, there's are there's a game where I can like.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): pretend I'm acting like, well, I mean, I guess act and pretend I'm another character. And I play this with like actual other adults who feel like this is a fun, good.

Lindsay Franklin: but

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh. time, you know commitment and we can do this and not think that we're all like, why didn't you ever grow up? You know, we're like, no, this is great.

Paul Regnier: Ha! Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So I got into that. And so for me, the lit RPG really brings in that D and D side as well.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um And so I love. That aspect of it um And then the whole idea of like, you know, playing with a bunch of different people because it, it makes me.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): think more outside of the box with creating characters for that kind of a story because it's like okay i normally create characters like this and yeah i want them different and never everything

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But... How would someone else make this character? And then that actually just brings in a whole new level of creativity because I'm like, I would not create a character like that. So maybe I should try and see how it goes um and see, you know, maybe how would so -and -so play this character instead of me as the author always playing every character.

Lindsay Franklin: who

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So I don't know.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I just think it's a new. branch of fun and then I also think that a lot of the manga and anime that I love has that kind of progression naturally in it too.

Paul Regnier: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So just seeing all of that. progression and having a whole new playing field for it just feels really fun.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned the D and &D thing because that's a that's a really good point because D and &D was always like that, you know.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: And really it's like separate from video games, but so tied to the lit RPG space.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Yes.

Paul Regnier: That's like such a natural tie in. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, there's so much overlap there.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: And I think that I think that's why lit RPG is sort of having its.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: its heyday at this time and kind of like its moment in the spotlight.

Paul Regnier: hu

Lindsay Franklin: And I hope it's going to be not just a moment that it'll be like, it's here now, you know?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): same yeah mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: um But I think that's why it's getting this visibility because this genre um has been around for a long time. I mean, I was hearing about it in my early days in the publishing industry and that's, you know, 16, nearly 17 years ago.

Lindsay Franklin: So it's been around for a long time, but it was so underground. I feel like, you know, I could say to like some.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: speculative fiction authors oh lit rpg and they would know what that meant but you could say it to most readers and they would have no clue you know what that that genre is and now it's become so um so much more mainstream and i think it is because our generation It grew up.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Good job.

Lindsay Franklin: with D and &D, playing video games.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's what I was thinking. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: were We're like, we're grownups now. We are, we're middle -aged and everybody who came, right?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Oh. We don't want to grow up. So...

Lindsay Franklin: But like everybody who came after us, all the generations younger than us, they've also grown up with these things.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: So all of us sort of, you know, like.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: 50s and below this is stuff that has just been part of our you know um awareness this kind of care these types of characters that you build in that way and the levels and all of that it's a very normal language to those of us who played any of these kind of games whether the tabletop versions or the video game versions um

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: So I think that's it's a really. cool, fun subgenre and you guys are making me want to write it. So there's that.

Paul Regnier: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i

Lindsay Franklin: Now what am I going to do?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): ya

Lindsay Franklin: Now what am I going to do? And Sarah, when you said that you are always Luigi, oh my gosh, that cracked me up. The first picture that came to mind was Super Mario Brothers 2. And Luigi had the flutter feet.

Lindsay Franklin: You guys, who every time he would jump, he had these ridiculous, and he would just like float and do the weirdest stuff.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No, you didn't float for me.

Lindsay Franklin: and

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You just fell.

Lindsay Franklin: He just... fell. When when I my husband and I got married, we we were quite young and still in our, you know, and and not that you have to be young again to like be a gamer, but we were just like.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.

Lindsay Franklin: right fresh on the heels of our childhoods and adolescence uh adolescences um and so that was something we did for entertainment especially because we didn't have cable we didn't have you know so i remember one day he came home he had gone over to his parents house and he had brought his like original and nes you know game system back to our apartment and he was like

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. yeah

Paul Regnier: na ha ha ha ha

Lindsay Franklin: I'm going to show you my world because I grew up i grew up playing Mario and Zelda and some some other games.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I'm home

Lindsay Franklin: that That's what my sister and I played. We were gamers, but I did not know about some of these fantasy games like the...

Paul Regnier: o

Lindsay Franklin: um Like Final Fantasy, stuff like that.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: and And my husband's family is a big gaming family and he grew up playing those.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: So he was like, let me let me show you the world. And and so he is he's like the oldest in his family and I'm the youngest in my family.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that

Lindsay Franklin: So he is. always player one i am always player two and i'm fine with it because i grew up that My big sister is always player one.

Paul Regnier: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.

Lindsay Franklin: So it's like, whatever, I don't care. So whenever there's only one, you know.

Lindsay Franklin: person controlling I'm totally fine to let him do that and I'll be there with like a notebook and I'll be writing down notes about this side quest and this thing we have to do over here and I'm like navigating like the map over there and keeping track of stuff like that and we would play together that's what we did in the early years of our marriage with um a lot of those really fun uh games these fantasy games and i would get sucked into the story um

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): How fun.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): oh

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: You know?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Like Final Fantasy 10, I think was the first new game that we played together because somebody gifted us that for like Christmas or something.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And we would put our son to bed at night because we only had one baby at the time. And we would, you know, go over to our little TV and turn that on and play for a while. It was like, oh my gosh, this is such good memories.

Lindsay Franklin: So I don't know. Maybe I have to explore this this genre, guys.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I think you do. I think you too.

Lindsay Franklin: I love it. I love it. Okay. So. We have kind of talked about our favorites, and I think this sort of is like. Probably as readers, we...

Lindsay Franklin: love some of those, those same things. um But what are some tropes that I'm going to be very careful in the way that I phrase this? What are some tropes that you hated until or thought you hated until somebody changed your mind?

Lindsay Franklin: So you thought you did not like this particular trope and then you read something or watched something. And realize that it's just. in how it's executed. And you actually don't hate that trope.

Lindsay Franklin: Do you guys have an...

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Anything that kind of.

Paul Regnier: That's a good one.

Lindsay Franklin: falls into that category.

Paul Regnier: Gosh, I got to think. Sarah, you might have to go first on this one.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): ah

Lindsay Franklin: What?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): For me.

Paul Regnier: I can't think of anything.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): For me, i it's going to be vampires.

Paul Regnier: but Um,

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um Oh no, did I did i cut out?

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: You're back.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay, for me...

Lindsay Franklin: Again, like a Phoenix.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): did hey okay well for me it's vampires so um yeah I

Lindsay Franklin: He rose from the ashes.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm. Good one. yeah

Paul Regnier: I'm with you on that. yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah?

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay. I actually didn't even... I wasn't even really aware of the whole. YA? fantasy until twilight. um and so i mean i knew some of the books, but I didn't really understand what why a fantasy was until twilight and i was working at

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The credit union with a bunch of... A bunch of... girls younger than me but everyone always felt that i was the same age as them so winning um

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: i

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And they were like, you have to read this. i was like I was pregnant with my first kid at the time. They're like, you have to read this. I'm like... Because I was writing.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And they're like, this is so good. This is so good. And I was like, no, i'm it's vampires. I'm not into that. I'm really not. So should I be embarrassed that Twilight opened my eyes to vampires, even though they're sparkly vampires?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And that's not.

Paul Regnier: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): necessarily the kind of vampires I like today. um But it was really just, I think it was that intro into the YA fantasy with the whole.

Lindsay Franklin: he

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): different kind of, it doesn't have to be third person suddenly. And it doesn't, it was just very different. I went home, I devoured the borrowed book.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The movie was already out. I devour I devoured the borrowed book and then I looked at my husband and I said I need to go. to the bookstore.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And we went and we bought the second book. And then I ordered the third and fourth. So it's like my one series that I have that the first two books are paperback and the second two are hardcover because they weren't.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): in their paperback form yet and i didn't care and now i look at it and i'm like have paperbacks cover this doesn't

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But anyway.

Paul Regnier: It's not a complete set.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I know But yeah, I, I, and then um also It's... hard for me to like. Dystopian.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Unless it has a happy enough ending, guys.

Lindsay Franklin: if

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I need...

Lindsay Franklin: That's fair.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I need happy endings. I'm a happy ending person.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): If you read my stuff, stick with it. The ending will be happy.

Lindsay Franklin: but

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): uh but um

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But yeah, dystopian is really hard for me when the ending isn't happy.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Because i need I need hope somewhere.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So if it's not going to be, you know, if it. if it's a promise that at the end of the story there's some kind of hope. then i can be invested in that story and if not then i have to mentally rewrite the ending like i did for the divergent series and things and even some of hunger games um so you know things like that my brain has to be like no

Lindsay Franklin: o

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's not how it ended. Your canon is different. Just remember that. um

Lindsay Franklin: ah Yeah, that's very fair because dystopian as... as a genre so there's there's a lot of darkness or a heaviness sort of baked into it necessarily, because we're we're talking about, you know, often post -apocalyptic or, you know, something bad has happened to get us where we're at, right?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Where that story starts just.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: genre conventions. So that totally makes sense. That's very. That's very fair. um

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I know that was stretching it for the fantasy side, but...

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Hey.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that I stretched it.

Lindsay Franklin: It's... It's speculative.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: We're going to give a pass on that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay, okay.

Lindsay Franklin: we're We're talking about our neighboring planet, planet sci -fi.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay, okay.

Lindsay Franklin: That's okay.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Now, I was going to say that's good because you you reminded me of something that I don't normally like, which is the zombie genre.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: I just, I can't, it's too gross for me.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: And it's usually too gory.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Paul Regnier: Like I never watched the walking dead.

Lindsay Franklin: Same.

Paul Regnier: I know like it was so huge and everyone was into it, but it, but I even.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I didn't either.

Paul Regnier: Talk to the people.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But that's because it was sad. to me because these characters kept dying.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: Well, that's the thing too. I talked to people that watched it and they just said the, even though they liked it at first, there was just no thread of hope.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): so

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: things just kept getting darker and darker.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Paul Regnier: And there was really no. like redemption or... I don't know, escape or whatever. And I'm like, I don't want to.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: watch that that's not what i want and plus the you know the zombie is kind of gross in general although I will say I i did kind of like the...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Paul Regnier: um What was the Will Smith? I am legend. I don't know if you guys saw that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): oh Yes Um...

Paul Regnier: I thought. That was kind of interesting, even though that was zombie.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): like I couldn't watch that one fall.

Paul Regnier: what You haven't watched it? Okay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The dog dies. I can't.

Lindsay Franklin: oh Yeah.

Paul Regnier: oh yeah that's true and that's the rule right you never kill the dog but Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I have a book once where I killed the dog, so.

Paul Regnier: So that was that was kind of brutal.

Lindsay Franklin: Sarah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Sarah. You of all people, you of all people, how could you?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Of all people.

Paul Regnier: Yep. But it was a zombie dog. It was, you know.

Lindsay Franklin: but ah

Paul Regnier: Anyways.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but Paul, I can't.

Paul Regnier: um

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I can't with the dog.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: but ah

Paul Regnier: But that was that was a cool, because to me it was a little different twist on it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yep.

Paul Regnier: And the end the ending kind of had some hopeful things to it.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: There's actually two, there's an alternate ending too. But um I don't know, there was something really interesting about, that and and I've always found it, I think Twilight Zone even did this too, where it was like, i like there's something really interesting about a character going through like a town and is deserted and trying to figure out what happened here.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): oh

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: Twilight Zone had a number of those. And even though those would be dystopian, There is something. interesting about that even though I wouldn't like if someone says hey I really like this dystopian book I my initial reaction but yeah I don't want dystopian that's depressing but like I'll see something and I'm like oh that's intriguing so I'm I'm a little torn on the dystopian genre I think but I think that goes back to I mean you're talking about you know, like tropes we see that we don't.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: who

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yeah.

Paul Regnier: like we usually avoid.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: To me, it's just like... You can get me as long as it's done well. If you spin a trope well, I think like, cause the one I think that's been done a lot is the chosen one trope.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: You know what I mean?

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Paul Regnier: And I'm like, so I think.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: yep

Paul Regnier: most everyone is kind of like, okay, no more of the chosen one. But like, if you do it right, if you do an interesting twist to it, like I've always had in the back of my head, I want to do that where someone's like, no, I don't want to be the chosen.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): some yellow.

Paul Regnier: Like they really try to avoid it at all costs or it's a chosen one leading to something.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): uh -huh

Paul Regnier: like they don't want to do, like maybe they're chosen to be the villain or something.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: I don't know.

Lindsay Franklin: m Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Ooh.

Paul Regnier: The...

Lindsay Franklin: I like that

Paul Regnier: I think there's some cool.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Paul? We need to pause there because that sounds good.

Lindsay Franklin: but

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: <unk> like I think there's definitely some cool twists you can do with it.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: but So to me, it's like, I don't really have, as long as you do it in an interesting way.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: I don't want to like close the door completely.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: but you know i but i the sparkly vampire one that's kind of a closed door for me i'm like

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that's fine

Paul Regnier: I did try.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): fuck

Paul Regnier: I tried to read Twilight because it was so huge at the time.

Lindsay Franklin: oh

Paul Regnier: And I got about 100 pages in and I just couldn't.

Lindsay Franklin: Now.

Paul Regnier: I had to. Did not finish, you know, I just.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's. Not for everyone, that's true.

Lindsay Franklin: But it is for a lot of people.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. it it Oh, it was huge.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It is.

Paul Regnier: Well, that's why I wanted to read it.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: I'm like, what is the what is all the hype?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. Nope.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Paul Regnier: But I could, you know, page after page of, you know, Edward's hair and his. voice and his smell and his it's just like it was too much for me his smile I was just like okay okay what are you trying to make me fall in love with this guy

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep, I get it. i get that

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. that is what That is what she's trying to do.

Paul Regnier: Yes, I guess, I guess.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes.

Paul Regnier: That's what Stephanie Meyer was trying to do.

Lindsay Franklin: ah but

Paul Regnier: um But. Yeah, i just it wasn't for me.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: right i wasn't i wasn't the audience and that's okay like where there's different books for different audiences i i just wasn't the right audience but apparently millions of

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Other people disagree with me. So there you go.

Lindsay Franklin: And actually, it's super common. To. to have other authors like Sarah. Okay. So people who have studied the craft who, you know, we know story, right.

Lindsay Franklin: As authors and editors, like we know story.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah

Lindsay Franklin: um I have run into so many people for whom, um like in this space for whom Twilight was. one of those series for them that they loved or it opened their eyes to something or it inspired them to get into publishing. And so they're even something, because I think most most of us agree that like is is the craft.

Lindsay Franklin: Like. Amazing. With Twilight. no okay I'm not trying to be a hater but like no um And I think, yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): emotionally, she knew how to draw ah to draw her audience in.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, exactly.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and so Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: And she was highly, highly successful at that, at at doing what she set out to do with that story.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: And it's still i'm a top favorite for a lot of people.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): hu

Lindsay Franklin: I was watching some booktuber, I don't know, I was just like floating around on the internet the other night. And, um you know, she's doing this whole like rundown of all these favorite books. I think she was cleaning her shelves or something.

Lindsay Franklin: And she came to Twilight and was, and this is someone very well read, like she's all of this really great, you know, great fiction on her. shelves and she's deciding what she wants to kind of rehome and, you know, take to the used bookstore or whatever.

Lindsay Franklin: And she came to Twilight and she said. I'm never getting rid of those. Like those are just top favorites for her.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: And she moves right on and just, you know, and I think that's great because it does show that, you know, it, it, not everything has to be. You know, like the we don't have to write.

Lindsay Franklin: the next great American novel in order for something to hit with our audience or to do what we're setting out to do, writing something that's entertaining or that hits ah with someone emotionally or that opens their eyes like it did for Sarah to a particular.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's true.

Lindsay Franklin: sub -genre or a particular thing that that she'd not been aware of before.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So I actually really... love that, you know, that, that those things are all true, you know, and it, um so yeah, it, it always makes me giggle though, the sparkly vampires, you know.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Because I do love glitter. I don't know if I love the glitter all over Edward, but it's, you know, yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Same. Okay, same.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I'm with you.

Paul Regnier: You know what's funny?

Lindsay Franklin: I don't know

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): there. Oop.

Paul Regnier: There was a movie that came out, and they called it... um Twilight for Men. And it was it was it was actually a zombie movie, which again, I don't really like zombie movies, but this was called Warm Bodies.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh.

Paul Regnier: and it was But it was really done in such an interesting way.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I've heard of that.

Paul Regnier: um I don't know if you guys have seen it, but it was a guy that was a zombie and he meets this human girl.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: And. And she awakened something in him that starts to reverse his zombification.

Lindsay Franklin: Aww.

Paul Regnier: and he starts to turn back into like a normal human again because of like the connection

Lindsay Franklin: Sweet.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So does it have a good ending? Because that's the one zombie movie.

Paul Regnier: It does.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that I thought Maybe.

Paul Regnier: It does.

Lindsay Franklin: Maybe.

Paul Regnier: It has a good end.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Maybe.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: It's really interesting.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: That sounds really sweet.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i might watch it.

Paul Regnier: It's so...

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i might watch it yep

Paul Regnier: it's so unique and but it's when it starts out it seems like typical zombie but it's but it's funny too.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Mhm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Paul Regnier: like it's there's like ah There's an underlying sense of humor, slightly dark, but not too dark.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): See, I like humor.

Lindsay Franklin: Love it.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Um, I don't know.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I don't mind.

Paul Regnier: I guess I can't recommend it for everyone, but like I saw it and I'm like, oh, this is different.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): start yeah

Paul Regnier: This is cool.

Lindsay Franklin: Dude.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: I love that. And I think, yeah, that that goes to show that it is really all about execution and how you deal. How you how do you deal with that particular trope?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It is. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: And that is one of my favorite. ah reader comments to get even though I kind of like u twitch every time anybody says that the Weaver trilogy has a love triangle in it because as I've mentioned on the show before I did not mean to do that I didn't set out to do that I knew going in that that trope was like one that people were very over so I was not trying to write that but that's how a lot of readers received it anyway.

Lindsay Franklin: And that's totally fine because once the, once the fiction is out of our hands and it's into the world, it's like, it's not ours anymore. It's for the reader to experience the way that they're going to experience it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Nope, it's not. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: And I am completely fine with that, guys. um I am. I am. I'm fine. um

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I have a love triangle in mind by accident as well.

Lindsay Franklin: ah i just You know, sometimes it just happens.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): so I mean... because it's me i'm like no clearly she belongs with this character but everyone else was like but does she and i'm like

Lindsay Franklin: Oh.

Lindsay Franklin: Exactly.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Bye.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, there was no There wasn't meant to be a triangle.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. ah Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And they're all like, but there's such a triangle.

Lindsay Franklin: Like i I tried to be clear.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I'm like.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I mean, I, so I see it now. I see it, but it's okay.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But that's okay.

Lindsay Franklin: It is okay. It is okay. And so one of my favorite. comments since I have I have truly made peace with the fact that like whoops I did that and a lot of readers are going to receive it that way and it's fine but I love to see in a review Normally, I hate a love triangle, but...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: but But this one, I was okay with this one or whatever, like, because, okay, I could maybe be that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: ah that book for that particular reader who hates the love triangle, but I was okay with the way this one was executed.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Uh -huh.

Lindsay Franklin: I'm like. Awesome. I love that as an author to see it. But I think that that's really true for most any trope that it. for a particular reader, it just has to be executed in a way that is okay for them.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: so um That's really fun. i I think you guys covered all of mine. There is one that is like, it's not even really a trope, but... I have such a clear memory of my mind, like actively changing in real time about something. So I'm going to mention it anyway, which is I had been in.

Lindsay Franklin: the Christian fiction space for kind of a long time. um at at this point. point when this moment happened and had kind of... begun to believe that I did not ever like fiction that was very overtly Christian.

Lindsay Franklin: Right. So where, you know, fantasy or whatever, where the allegory is very direct or it's very clear what we're talking about or there's a very direct kind of one to one comparison in our real world. I i have always loved stories that explore spiritual truth.

Lindsay Franklin: um truth. But I had really gotten to ah a point where I thought I did not like overtly Christian fiction. And I was actually copy editing. um the dancing realm series but Dancing Realms series by Sharon Hink. It was the first book in that series, um Hidden Current. And I was probably like 40 % of the way through copy editing that. And I was like,

Lindsay Franklin: this is gorgeous like everything about this is beautiful and i was a dancer so and that the magic system in that um series is dance based and i know that was probably like part of what pulled me in but She's talking very directly about a lot of spiritual things, but she did it so well.

Paul Regnier: this is

Lindsay Franklin: And her prose was beautiful. And everything about this was just. beautiful. And and it completely changed my mind. I realized even with that thing that I thought I didn't like, it was just that I had seen so much where it was done.

Lindsay Franklin: not as well, not executed as well or as as cleanly or or something as as it could be.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: did Did it feel more heavy handed? Is that why when you, when you read the other ones?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. And I think this is a function. I didn't realize it at the time, but this is a function of as an editor or even as an author in. in this space, you read a lot of unpublished work, right?

Lindsay Franklin: You read a lot of your critique partners things or just stuff that that is not yet published, it's not yet polished, or has, you know, made it all the way to the finish line.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: And so, and I think that's what happened is I was reading a lot of that. And those authors are probably still figuring it out and working through what this is ultimately going to look like. And so that's not to say that they didn't.

Lindsay Franklin: get there by the end of when it was published but subconsciously I had really internalized this idea that nope I don't like that I never like that when it's it's too overt and when I read Sharon's it was like oh no it just it just has to be executed really really well um and she did that series i I think every single book in that trilogy won the Christie Award.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, it wants that yeah

Lindsay Franklin: um Yeah. Like every single, one like, it's just, it's a very beautiful series and it's still not going to be for everybody. No, no book is um it, but it just on that specific thing. totally changed my mind where it was like, nope.

Lindsay Franklin: Sharon can make me like something where it is very like like ah direct and clear what we're talking about. I know exactly what she's referring to you know in the real world life of a Christian um and and what the parallel is here in this fantasy world, but it was just so beautiful, the stuff she was talking about.

Lindsay Franklin: so Anyway, that's mine. It's not specific to, fit I guess it is specific to fantasy because we're talking to yeah about allegory and yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, cuz it's

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Cool.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That actually happened to me too, and I was afraid to mention it here.

Lindsay Franklin: Cool.

Lindsay Franklin: ah ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Because I was like, should I? I don't know. But. Same I don't I was like no Overt Christian fiction is not for me. I want to escape. And Christianity is not escape to me.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's real life. And, you know, and so there were, you know, or whatever reasons or sometimes, you know, it feels preachy to me specifically or whatever it is.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I had also come to the conclusion that. No. That that's not my kind of fiction.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And it was also the same thing. I was copy editing a book for Enclave and it was. um I'm going to say I'm going to say it wrong.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's color, color, color.

Paul Regnier: Oh yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: J .J.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: Fishers.

Paul Regnier: JJ Fisher, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: ah Yep, Nightingale trilogy.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. And it's not just because there's a wolf in it.

Lindsay Franklin: Ha ha!

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um um but no it was the same thing i was like wow this is actually Quite. Christian? I really like it.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um So, yeah, same.

Lindsay Franklin: It's beautiful. Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's the same kind of thing. And I have not read Sharon's yet, but i that's a series that's always been on my, I do want to read that one. But it was the same thing. And I was like. And I think it might have been you, Lindsay, that you weren't the one to assign me that book, but you came into the job with book two and you're like, do you want the rest of the series?

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I was like, if you don't give me the rest of that series, I'll be upset.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So. So yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That one.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So, yeah, I do understand that. And it to me, I think a lot of it is I am far more willing to follow. characters. that I feel are real and relatable and that I like.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): into whatever world or however

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The craft may be, whichever level the craft may be of the story, I'm far more willing to follow characters that I love through an entire book than I am to just be like, oh, that plot sounds cool.

Paul Regnier: o

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I just can't with the characters or I can't connect with that.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's done. I'm done. So ah even if it's like. beautifully executed on every scale of craft level. it to me Mainly it's got to be the character.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I have to be able to

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): want to stick there with. the through the whole journey with those specific people.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): people like beings, aliens, whatever they are

Lindsay Franklin: Or wolves, as the case may be.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Wolves, yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Sometimes wolves, sometimes dogs. Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Sometimes.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Vampires, whatever.

Lindsay Franklin: ah I love that so much. Yeah. And I love when we have that moment and it's like, oh No, wait, I actually don't dislike this thing that I thought I disliked.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: It's just you like, here's someone who did who did the thing and did it well.

Paul Regnier: in

Lindsay Franklin: I love that.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Um, Awesome. Okay. So. I want to kind of transition into talking about something slightly different, which we mentioned in part one of our fantasy roundtable that between the three of us, we have covered. Now, Paul's doing a lot of the heavy lifting here. I'm not going to lie. um But between the three of us, we have covered. middle grade fantasy, young adult fantasy, and adult fantasy. Now.

Lindsay Franklin: To be fair, Sarah and I are both YA fantasy. And I think exclusively that that's what we have written and published. And then Paul is holding down the fort with middle grade and adult.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Published dance yes, yes

Lindsay Franklin: But um we do.

Paul Regnier: And I haven't written YA so you filled in the gap.

Lindsay Franklin: but That's right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh, hey.

Paul Regnier: So.

Lindsay Franklin: That's right. So I guess it is really it's true between all three of us. We we know what we're talking about, probably um in in these different age categories.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So I wanted to talk a little bit about that. And this is something that always cracks me up because when I go to teach at conferences. um i Because I write young adult fantasy, I am sometimes asked to teach about fantasy -related things and sometimes asked to teach about young adult -related things. And then sometimes I get asked to teach about, like, can you teach a workshop about...

Lindsay Franklin: YA slash fantasy. And I'm like. Those are two really different things.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Uh huh.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Like, ah which one would you like?

Paul Regnier: Right.

Lindsay Franklin: Or do you want something that is specific to young adult ah fantasy, young adult fantasy?

Paul Regnier: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.

Lindsay Franklin: um So that always cracks me up.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): one

Lindsay Franklin: But it's because in this specific area of publishing, those two things get. put together a lot, young adult fantasy, even in some like...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: industry awards those will be put together where you will have you know and

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: In more recent years, they they have gotten broken out into separate categories a lot where you'll have the young adult category and you will have the speculative category or or what have you. But um yeah, that always kind of cracks me up. I'm like, oh, one of these is like a genre and the other isn't.

Lindsay Franklin: age category.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right.

Lindsay Franklin: it's ah It's an audience, but... um But I do want to talk a little bit about, you know, fantasy in each of those different age categories and what changes when we're writing for different age groups. and What doesn't change? What really stays exactly the same, um if anything? so um

Lindsay Franklin: First question is about tropes. A lot of these tropes that we were just discussing, does the appeal of these tropes? the found family and the chosen one and the quest and the, all of these amazing things. um Does that appeal change between middle grade, YA, and adult?

Lindsay Franklin: in your experience.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Sarah, SD Grimm, take it away.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): okay Oh no.

Paul Regnier: Eric.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: Sarah coming in with a definitive answer there.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Uh... Okay. um yeah i think Well, I know that a lot of the YA fantasy audience... is Adult.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): female readers um and so but when i write my ya fantasy i am writing for young adults

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And so sometimes I... um get feedback that it's like well these i sort of I liked this one because the the people did feel more grown up.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I understand that they felt more grown up because like they're in this world where they have to be warriors or, you know, they're it's like medieval.

Lindsay Franklin: Hehe.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And then I also and so that's like my more sword and sorcery type of fantasy. And then I've got my fantasy where. They're paranormal or urban fantasy and they're actually in high school and then i will get author or readers saying things like they were just so childish and i'm like Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): They are? children um so i'm just gonna i'm gonna put that out there so you do so even in the ya fantasy space you kind of have to decide Who?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): your going to appeal to audience wise because you you have to know that all these

Lindsay Franklin: who

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): women like me are lurking there not lurking that sounds bad um

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. Hey. You know, we do look at you in the dark for our YouTube watchers.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but Okay. <unk>m Working.

Lindsay Franklin: sarah Sarah's in this very like dark atmospheric kind of.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): murder

Lindsay Franklin: a

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Thanks.

Lindsay Franklin: a setting right now.

Paul Regnier: Lert.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I even have an extra lamp.

Lindsay Franklin: So she is lurking.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): today because it's like rainy outside so i was like there's no light coming in i have to um but yeah the But yeah, you...

Lindsay Franklin: but yeah um

Paul Regnier: That's lurker lighting right there.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Looker. so So you have to know. that That audience sits there. But then I still have to decide myself, well, when I write this, who am I writing for?

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Who's the audience I'm actually writing for?

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Because when I go and I read, because I'll read middle grade. And and I understand that those characters are going to be more... childish than the ya characters i understand that they're going to be me focused in an entirely different way than the ya characters are going to be me focused and things like that um But...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It doesn't mean that I'm going to sit there and be like, well, this middle grade character. acted so middle grade. um necessarily in a review but it's okay if reviewers want to say that because they're writing for other readers and so the other readers are going to want to know oh this is one of those

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Lindsay Franklin: Sure.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): true YA books that's very YA because the characters are YA and they're written for YA.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And um I like.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): that a lot of ya writers are going back to that

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I like that a lot of YA writers are also branching off into adult fiction.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I actually have one series that I'm like, I think I want to. I think these are adult characters. These are adult characters.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um Am I growing up? Oh, no, no.

Paul Regnier: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um But. But...

Paul Regnier: Don't do it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I know, right? But sometimes that's what the story needs because whatever it's going to tackle or the themes or or whatever's happening in the story, that's the lens you need.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And so...

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): really knowing who the audience that you're actually writing for instead of, well, I know a lot of 35 to 50 year old women are going to pick this up. Well, yeah, but is that who you're writing for?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Are you writing a YA for them?

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Because if you are, I think it will look different. You're going to want more mature characters because

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): We ain't got time. for dealing with some of that immaturity in our lives and so we don't want to read about it um So those kinds of things you just really have to keep in mind.

Lindsay Franklin: ah Yep. Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And like specifically, we brought up the love triangles. A lot of times the older women who are reading YA. They don't have time for love triangles.

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): they don't we we don't have time for this we don't

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): If you're going to fawn that much and not know, then just drop them both and find a new one. I mean, you know, right?

Paul Regnier: Ha!

Lindsay Franklin: Right, right.

Paul Regnier: Ha!

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah but

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

Paul Regnier: Ah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep. No, that's ah ah so true.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Um...

Lindsay Franklin: This is so true.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I mean, it's kind of more an adult mindset.

Lindsay Franklin: I'm just nodding everything. Yes, everything Sarah's saying, I'm like, uh -huh, uh -huh, because this is how it is, NYA, yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right? Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Interesting.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. uh but then

Paul Regnier: i'm learning i'm learning that's good That's good to know.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): flip then But then you have like when you're in high school. That is not your mindset because you don't know yet.

Lindsay Franklin: m

Paul Regnier: m

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You haven't been through a bajillion race relationships.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I mean, i I wasn't through a bajillion either, but you know you haven't been maturing as yourself, finding out who you are. You're finding out who you are.

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And so how do you know exactly what you want in a relationship you don't? And so it's okay for them to be more wishy -washy and it's normal. And so when teens are reading that, they're going to connect with that kind of thing a lot more than adult reading it is.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): so As an adult reader of YA fantasy, I do appreciate, like when it's written for more an adult audience, I can tell and I'm cool with that because I am. An actual and adult, I say with shame.

Lindsay Franklin: listen

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No, I don't. I don't. But. um But when I'm reading the YA stuff that's like super YA or when I'm, I'm sorry, I watch a lot of anime and read a lot of manga for teenage boys.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay, there is a lot of nose picking And...

Lindsay Franklin: but

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Farting and I don't like any of that guys i don't like those tropes at all but i still love the story and the character so i'm still in it so you know but that's the kind of thing i'm not going to sit there and Really, i I'm going to judge that because I know that.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Lindsay Franklin: ah Right. Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): the audience they're targeting, like my son.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): would find when we watch it together he's the only one laughing me and my daughter are like

Lindsay Franklin: but ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And he's like, and I'm like, you know.

Lindsay Franklin: i

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): See?

Lindsay Franklin: ah He's the audience.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): They know their audience, right?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So as a...

Lindsay Franklin: He's the audience.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Exactly. As in... author, not just a reader.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I can understand, oh, well, the the author's just writing for their audience.

Lindsay Franklin: e

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): don't get Don't throw shade at that.

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's fine.

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

Paul Regnier: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But yeah, so anyway, maybe maybe I've talked too much on that.

Lindsay Franklin: I kind of yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Sorry.

Lindsay Franklin: No, it's it's a lot of...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: It's a lot of interesting Interesting thoughts here, because I wonder how the rise of romanticism is going to impact us in this particular thing with YA, because I think in years past, that was one reason why.

Paul Regnier: Amen.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: women of a certain age um read YA is because that romance ah subplot, that expectation was a lot more baked in to the YA fantasy.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: space and that is a direct result of twilight thank you very much twilight um and so that expectation was there and so for those women who wanted that in their fantasy so maybe they wouldn't be super interested in reading you know like a

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm Yep. You're right. Yes, it is. Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: I'm trying to think of one that, well, maybe Lord of the Rings, or I was trying to think of a more recent example um that kind of doesn't.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: have romance as a big element of it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right. Right.

Lindsay Franklin: um they They really want to have the romance. They're going to maybe be drawn more to YA because they're likelier to find that subplot there.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): sense

Lindsay Franklin: um but then be annoyed by by the ah the level of maturity of where the romance is at.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Because romance, I don't know any parents of teens out there, if you've noticed, but romance between teens is a little bit different than romance between adults. It just is. um And so I wonder if the the rise ah in popularity of romanticism and the fact that a lot of Most of that is written for adults.

Lindsay Franklin: If that will kind of change what the reader expectations are in YA fantasy, where those of us who do like a good romantic subplot, but we are writing for teens because I'm the same.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: as As a mom, that's really important to me that I am writing for teenagers and young adults where they're at developmentally.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: If adults like to read what I write, because I like to read young adult fiction.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Exactly.

Lindsay Franklin: And if they like that. Awesome. i'm I'm here for you, too. Love you all. I am one of you. You know, whatever. That's great. But first and foremost, I am writing for teenagers when I write young adults.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: So um I'm interested to see over time, you know, over the next few years, is that going to impact? Are we going to see less of those? Oh, my gosh, these characters were so immature, like in our YA reviews, because maybe some of those readers have sort of moved on to the romantic space and um because they know they can get that romance that they want.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: there, but it's written for adults. So we'll see. We'll see if that if that happens.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Makes sense.

Lindsay Franklin: But Paul, as a middle grade... author, I've always found this sort of fascinating on the marketing side where you are writing for sure with middle grade.

Lindsay Franklin: I feel like but even readers who are not in the publishing industry, they know this is written for kids. like it's It's very clear. It's clearly signaled by cover art and and all of that. like This is written for kids.

Lindsay Franklin: However, you have to sell to parents because kids don't have any money.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: So you write for the kids, but then sell to the parents.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): hu

Lindsay Franklin: So like how do you do that? do you manage that um as an indie author writing middle grade fantasy?

Paul Regnier: Yeah, I think. um I mean... As in any genre, you want to read in that genre and see what's out there, especially like bestsellers, and see kind of like what the expectations are for the readership.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: Um, And I think, you know, when you read stuff like Percy Jackson or even like the early Harry Potter books and things like that, um you kind of get that vibe. and i think like you guys are talking about in once you get to ya it's almost like romance is sort of this expected thing um but in the middle grade i think that's like the

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: Sort of like the last place where you can still just have friendship

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: you know um even if there's like a ah boy and girl character it's like they're just becoming like close friends on this adventure right so you don't so someone someone like me who's not a great romance writer anyways

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Which I love. and middle grade. Love it.

Paul Regnier: It's a good place for me to write because then I don't even have to try for my clunky romance pages.

Lindsay Franklin: ah ah ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): it

Paul Regnier: Because when I do have a a scene with romance I always have to show it to my wife. I'm like, does this work? you know and then she'll say no a woman would never say that i'm like okay help me Yeah.

Paul Regnier: um

Lindsay Franklin: I love that you're checking that with her, though. Thank you. Thank you for doing that.

Paul Regnier: Oh yeah. Yeah, I have to because I know I'm like, this doesn't sound real.

Lindsay Franklin: love it

Paul Regnier: um So anyways, but with middle grade, I don't have to worry about that. It's just about the friendship. It's just about like working together. And adventure is ah is a big part of the middle grade space.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: You know, you're going on this adventure. um And also... um just that um the wonder and the imagination and like oh there's these crazy creatures and and oh look at this land and oh magic it's just like there's so much wonderment about it Um, And also humor, I think, is pretty big for middle grade.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: Like they love humor and sort of lighthearted, funny banter between characters.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: And these are all the things that I love to write anyways, no matter what I'm writing. so For me, it was kind of just a natural fit. um in the middle grade space like all the things i do and all my books it's kind of just were expected in these genres and i write pretty clean so and clean is expected in middle grade

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: um Whereas then once you get to YA, that's not so expected, especially when you get to Roman to see and all that kind of stuff.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep. It's a whole big conversation out there about that.

Paul Regnier: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah

Paul Regnier: so So there's that for middle grade. um I think those things are like... sort of like the boundary lines that work perfectly with how I like to write.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: when it kind Oh, and then the other thing I was going to mention too is when you do kind of start to get that found family where they meet.

Lindsay Franklin: name

Paul Regnier: like different characters along the way i I think yeah um there's a little bit more of the... Um, Um, Because they're middle grade.

Paul Regnier: So it's almost like they are still in that transition between where they are listening more to their parents and authority figures.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: So it's a little bit more of like the mentor is really.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: leading me almost like in a slightly parental way.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): uh -huh

Paul Regnier: um through these things so there's a little bit more of like if there's an older character they need to be sort of this protector this parental kind of figure at least in some sense like you don't want the

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: the middle grade characters to be like you want them to have agency and and get into the you know the action and do all that kind of stuff

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: not just be along for the ride, obviously, but. those older mentor characters, they they need to have ah just a hint of that, I think. that's That's what I like to put in there. Whereas if I'm doing the adult, it's like.

Paul Regnier: kind of every man for himself sort of thing, you know, it's like.

Lindsay Franklin: but Like the real world. ah

Paul Regnier: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So even if you have found family.

Lindsay Franklin: Add. yeah

Paul Regnier: you get in the scrap and it's like, all right.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

Paul Regnier: Everyone, do your thing.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: you know I hope you make it. I hope I see you on the other side.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right?

Paul Regnier: but you're on your own. Um, you know draw your sword get to it uh so Yeah, I think that's one difference between writing those two different age groups, because it's the same genre, different age groups, right?

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Lindsay Franklin: who

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: That you're a different readership.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.

Paul Regnier: that you're appealing to. Um, But yeah, I think also for the adult, you can be a little bit more. um I think the banter can be, especially if it's like um between two male characters, I think can be a little more like.

Paul Regnier: Um, What's the right word? Harsh is probably not the right word, but...

Lindsay Franklin: Maybe sharp, a little... a little Sharp, spikier.

Paul Regnier: sharp little sharper.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, a little spikier, maybe.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Clip.

Paul Regnier: Because guys, you know, they like to taunt and tease each other. It's like, oh, a good job dropping your sword when the ogre like. you know idiot

Lindsay Franklin: well ah

Paul Regnier: Yeah. like they yeah or Or even just kind of like, you know...

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

Paul Regnier: um but ah smack talking and stuff like that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: You can kind of up that a little bit more with the adult stuff and it's just fun and it's expected.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: and all that kind of stuff.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: So, but again, I don't. I don't really think there's... like huge differences honestly for me at least because i still write the lighthearted adventure with humor.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Paul Regnier: and kind of quirky characters and stuff like that. And I think that fits with no matter what. there's just I think the differences are more subtle than drastic.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: Um, Yeah, I don't know. But... I don't know if I covered everything, but that's that's my thoughts, I guess.

Lindsay Franklin: That totally makes sense. Yeah. And especially for your brand, I think your brand of that kind of. the adventure and the humor and the lightheartedness and all of that like just lends itself so well to middle grade.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So when you first said, yeah, I'm new in middle grade now, i like, you know, a while back publishing your first one, I thought oh my gosh that's so smart that makes so much sense for paul to do that because it just doesn't you what you were already doing in an adult space lends itself so well to that um because of those kind of genre and and trope expectations that that are

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Sh -sh -sh -sh -sh -sh -sh.

Paul Regnier: ah

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: baked into each of these different age categories. And I think sometimes people...

Lindsay Franklin: get the impression even on the back end of the industry here where I'll talk with a lot of writers where they will say like in a mentoring appointment or something like that where they they don't know if what they're writing is young adult or adult am I writing young adult or middle grade because they often think it comes down to the age of the protagonist and they'll say you know my protagonist is 18 and so I don't know is that it's kind of like in the middle and and everything and it really like the age of the protagonist of course does matter where there are you know, those things, but it actually, in my mind comes down to.

Paul Regnier: m

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.

Paul Regnier: Hmm. Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: theme more than anything else like what themes are you exploring in your stories, that to me determines if something's kind of like in the middle or on the line or something.

Paul Regnier: m

Lindsay Franklin: If you are talking about things like belonging and friendship and somebody's role in their family and stuff like that, that's going to be ah more of a middle grade, like those are middle grade themes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. no

Lindsay Franklin: And, um you know, maybe kids for the first time sort of breaking away from that, that adult figure, the mentor, you know, type of of figure that first foray into that, you know, that's very middle grade.

Paul Regnier: Mm -hmm.

Paul Regnier: Mm -hmm.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, the in -between zone. Yeah, yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, that that's a very middle grade.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: ah like space to explore and YA is more about finding your place in the world and your identity and you know so there's just different stuff developmentally going on at that time where um you know in an adult story you can still explore that but it's like it's always a change in identity.

Paul Regnier: oh

Lindsay Franklin: There there aren't a lot of 40 -year -olds out there that are like...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): if okay Okay. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: I have no idea who I am and what my place in this world is.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: It's usually if they're having that kind of crisis, it's I thought I knew who I was and then this thing happened and now I know nothing.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: And so that's really fun to explore as well um in adult fiction.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Sure.

Lindsay Franklin: But it's different than that initial coming of age that that everybody goes through.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: so To me, these age category separations really comes down to that and what themes are you exploring? Because so many of the tropes can be like, we're going to execute differently.

Lindsay Franklin: We're going to put different types of content on the page.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: but What are the themes that you are exploring? That's going to be what separates with your age categories in your audience rather than tropes. Like you could put dragons into any age category.

Lindsay Franklin: You could do middle grade dragons and you should.

Paul Regnier: Oh sure.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: And you should.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Okay, that's actually a perfect segue.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): ha

Lindsay Franklin: ah Yes, yes, go ahead.

Paul Regnier: Wait a minute.

Paul Regnier: Before you make the transition, I did want to mention one last thing that that I forgot to mention is the the level of violence too.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

Paul Regnier: So between middle grade, obviously you want to.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: try to keep that pretty. tame, you know?

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Paul Regnier: um But then when you get to adult, I mean, i I still don't go gory, but like you could be a little bit more. Mike. descriptive i guess with your because you know it's fantasy so you're gonna have people with swords and weapons and

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Paul Regnier: arrows and that can get I mean, in the real world, that could get... pretty gnarly.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: ah so But yeah, in middle grade, you definitely want to like keep that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: I mean, again, because you've got parents and kids and you don't want to like freak kids out either.

Lindsay Franklin: listen

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No.

Paul Regnier: Um,

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: so yeah you got to be a little cautious when you're when you're writing those kind of things

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah that's not the point

Lindsay Franklin: Absolutely. And I think that's also, of course, it's a lot more of a gray area in YA, but I think that's also, that is something I think about all the time when when it comes to violence, when it comes to romance, when it comes to even heavy themes, trauma.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Out. Yes, all of it.

Paul Regnier: Mhm.

Lindsay Franklin: all of these things, what is appropriate for...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah How heavy? How much?

Lindsay Franklin: yep, how heavy do we make this what is appropriate for my reader?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. How? ha Yeah. Yep. It's like where does the camera, when does the camera pan away?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You know?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Yeah. And that can be really tricky in young adult because. because teens are dealing with so many things that are heavy and real and just weighty in the world.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: So you don't want to avoid all of that and pretend that teens are not aware that they're not dealing with those things, you know, because then it doesn't feel real to them.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right. Exactly. Breach! Yeah, I know.

Lindsay Franklin: Right. But.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Like, you're singing my song.

Lindsay Franklin: But we have to be careful with our our audience and their their tender hearts and not, you know, kind of just dumping a bunch of stuff.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but but

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm Yep. We have to be the protectors as the authors.

Lindsay Franklin: Exactly.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Exactly.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, we have to be. Yes, this is real. This is out there, but...

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Don't. go closer than this at this time.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You know?

Lindsay Franklin: Yes, and let's explore it in this safe space in fiction.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Let's explore these things there so that you're not exploring some of these things out in the real world.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No they can't. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: We can do it here in this very safe contained sandbox so we can still talk about it and work through it and discuss it, but not have you feel like you have to go adventure into some of these dark spaces in real life.

Paul Regnier: Mm -hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes

Lindsay Franklin: So I love getting to do that, you know, as a mom. as a mom I like to do that in you know my fiction and I think I've it's funny because as ah as you get older it's like oh is it still okay for me to write for younger audiences but I

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Same.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Same.

Lindsay Franklin: Right. But I think I like came into my own with that as a YA author when my oldest sort of started becoming a teenager.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yup.

Lindsay Franklin: And I was like, oh, I know how to write for you.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I... This is my song, Lindsay!

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's my song!

Lindsay Franklin: ah Yay!

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i've

Paul Regnier: ha

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I feel that on so many levels.

Lindsay Franklin: Yay!

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And even because I have um taught and coached a lot of younger writers that are in that space of high school and going into college and just seeing the stories that they are coming up with and the ideas that they have and the hard things they want to tackle.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I'm like, yeah, I. i want that to be in your fiction but also you know i know that there are some levels of it that

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): if At your age, I would not be okay with that level because I know my books can get. fairly bloody.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): There's a lot of blood in a lot of my stories.

Lindsay Franklin: isn

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um there's yeah red is a big color in my books um so is black i guess but anyway so yes but always thinking about you know

Lindsay Franklin: me

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Who is that audience? These are teens.

Lindsay Franklin: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Would you want your kids exposed to this kind of thing?

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Right. And just being really careful and and just cognizant of that and exploring things that feel real and relevant.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: But not. not trauma dumping and kind of, you know, like going too far with it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, yes

Lindsay Franklin: And I think that for the different age categories, movie ratings are really helpful with that kind of trying to decide um at least content wise.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: um Excuse me. um You know, what is. what is appropriate to put on the page for that age category.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): hello

Lindsay Franklin: Like if something is is more than PG, probably not okay for it to be on the page in your middle grade.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: You know, if something is is more than PG -13.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right? right mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: probably not okay for your YA audience. and so um And to be clear, if you are writing for adults, you do not have to have R -rated content in your um in your books.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's true.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: That is not necessary.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): This is true.

Paul Regnier: Right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yep. It's not.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. So, um okay, so I am going to segue into our our final sort of round here, which is the lightning round.

Paul Regnier: Lightning round.

Lindsay Franklin: I'm very excited. ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Not nervous at all. Not not nervous at all.

Lindsay Franklin: but

Paul Regnier: i want I should have like a lightning sound effect.

Lindsay Franklin: Hey, we can add it.

Paul Regnier: but they

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. You need that.

Lindsay Franklin: in post -production. Lightning round.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): A lightsaber!

Lindsay Franklin: Okay. That's where the crash happens.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): see

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Oh, wait, I have that.

Lindsay Franklin: Okay. Yeah. So I am going to do just a super rapid fire kind of this or that with different fantasy things. um and I don't know.

Lindsay Franklin: Some of these, when I was writing this list, hey!

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. and The lightsaber.

Lindsay Franklin: Paul has a lightsaber!

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yay.

Lindsay Franklin: Okay. yeah Once again.

Paul Regnier: Could you hear that?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Paul Regnier: Ready? Okay, here we go.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Lightning round.

Lindsay Franklin: i love it there it is now we don't have to add anything in post it's already there

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but

Paul Regnier: There you go.

Lindsay Franklin: Love it. um Yes. So as I was writing this list, I was like, dang, I want to say both with all of these. But both is not allowed.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: You have to pick one or the other.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No, Vincy, why?

Lindsay Franklin: It is this or that. I mean, I mean. All right. So are we ready? Okay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): no

Lindsay Franklin: okay It's fine. It's easy. ish okay so We didn't even talk about this yesterday. This is very unfair of me because we didn't even define these terms, but I'm throwing it out there anyway. Hard magic systems or soft magic systems?

Paul Regnier: Soft.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): soft

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Ha! Soft.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: i I enjoy reading. Okay, so I'm in the fifth book now. of the Mistborn. sort of, you know, whatever. I read my or listened to my first Brandon Sanderson stuff earlier this year.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes! Uh -huh.

Lindsay Franklin: And I've just kind of continued on as my library has these audio books available.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Nice.

Lindsay Franklin: So I'm in kind of book five at this point. And I just really appreciate the sort of hard magic system that he's got going on there.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: everything like makes sense. I love how he explains the thing and the things and the physics of it and everything. It's great. For me, as a writer. Soft magic system. 100 % of the time because it's just.

Lindsay Franklin: More fun.

Paul Regnier: I always draw the line.

Lindsay Franklin: It's more fun.

Paul Regnier: I always think of like the original Star Wars trilogy. and the force the way the force was there was still so much mystery about it it was just sort of like briefly mentioned oh it's this energy force it surrounds all things but And then it's kind of like you can harness it, but you don't.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: totally understand it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: you know you can kind of and i like that and i like when magic is like because i feel like that's how it would be it's almost like the supernatural it's like you kind of get it but there's so much that you don't understand and never will and then so when they did like the prequels and stuff like that and they're like oh it all comes down to the metachlorides and they like a chemist came it and dissected it i'm like No, you just took the magic out of it.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Yep. There's always something to learn. Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That didn't happen in my head, Gannon.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Just letting you all know.

Paul Regnier: That's right. Me neither.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i

Paul Regnier: Me neither.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Delete that scene.

Paul Regnier: I rejected that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): What? Same.

Paul Regnier: I'm like, no, that's not how it works.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Midichlorian what? No.

Lindsay Franklin: Meta what?

Paul Regnier: So.

Lindsay Franklin: No!

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Boop boop.

Paul Regnier: That's where I me personally that's always sort of my you know, that's where I draw the line on That's what I like about magic and don't like about magic

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Lindsay Franklin: down

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Love that. Okay. this and i Man, I'm so sorry, guys. Okay, adventure quests or court intrigue?

Paul Regnier: Oh, Adventure Quest, for sure.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Adventure Quest.

Lindsay Franklin: ah I...

Paul Regnier: Oh, my court intrigue.

Lindsay Franklin: I know.

Paul Regnier: Boring.

Lindsay Franklin: I know.

Paul Regnier: but

Lindsay Franklin: I feel this is another one that's very like. Both for me personally, but... If I have to pick one or the other adventure quest, yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh, I'll read court intrigue.

Lindsay Franklin: Always. Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No problem. But.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I'll write it I guess because some of my books are going to have it now the ones that I have coming up but I really love the adventure.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Indiana Jones all the way.

Lindsay Franklin: Same.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I grew up with that.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um that one

Paul Regnier: Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Okay, here's one. Found family or reluctant allies?

Paul Regnier: Oh.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Unfair.

Lindsay Franklin: I know this one's mean. I'm sorry.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Unfair.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um

Paul Regnier: I have to think about that one a little bit.

Lindsay Franklin: What? Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Reluctant allies. ah I mean I'd probably

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): The reluctant allies become found family, okay?

Lindsay Franklin: Right?

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: That's true. That's true.

Paul Regnier: Yeah, if you're going to make me choose, I'll say Found Family, but Reluctant Allies is interesting.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So Reluctant Allies.

Paul Regnier: I do like that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm do love those.

Lindsay Franklin: it's It's a fun thing to play with. Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I love those.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So much.

Lindsay Franklin: Okay. Chosen one or ordinary every man in over their head.

Paul Regnier: Ordinary every man in over their head.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You know. I'm gonna go chosen one because I love a good chosen one story.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh. Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I really do.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): if it's

Paul Regnier: I'm sorry, that's the incorrect answer, Sarah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's good.

Lindsay Franklin: ah You're fired.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh, and I failed.

Paul Regnier: okay

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i'm I'm never allowed back on the podcast. ah

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, no.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): ah

Lindsay Franklin: No. that's That's awesome. That one is like is rough for me because.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Reluctant, chosen one.

Lindsay Franklin: reluctant chosen the one I love.

Paul Regnier: yeah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I do love reluctant chosen.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, we we which we talked about.

Paul Regnier: There you go.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Those are my favorite.

Paul Regnier: There you go.

Lindsay Franklin: I love that.

Paul Regnier: Chocolate and peanut butter.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Just put them together.

Lindsay Franklin: Perfect. I love it. ok portal into another world or magic hiding in ours.

Paul Regnier: Portal.

Lindsay Franklin: Portal for me. Sarah is thinking.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Magic hiding!

Lindsay Franklin: Hey. Hey.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but

Lindsay Franklin: you know

Paul Regnier: They're both good.

Lindsay Franklin: That's E.

Paul Regnier: that Those are both good.

Lindsay Franklin: They're both good.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): They are. they're both good exactly i knock on the back of every wardrobe i see so

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Yeah. Just in case.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um

Lindsay Franklin: checking the horse heads for the horns, right?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): he said Same.

Lindsay Franklin: We talked about that in part one.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Same.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but

Lindsay Franklin: ah Oh my goodness. Okay. Epic world ending steaks. or save one person who means everything.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): oh

Paul Regnier: Save one person.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): One person, one person means everything.

Lindsay Franklin: ah Yeah. I I'm going to have to agree. I do love to at least have those epic stakes kind of in the background.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh I love both.

Lindsay Franklin: But, ah you know, I love both. but I think i I need to have that. that one person who means everything in there as well. So, yeah.

Paul Regnier: You know, there was an interesting thing. There was a show called Heroes that I never watched.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes

Paul Regnier: I know it was really popular back in the day.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): oh Yeah, I watched a lot of it.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.

Paul Regnier: but i read Did you? Okay, so you'll know this quote. They had a ah sort of a tagline for the first... cut I think I watched the first episode.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Save the cheerleader, save the world.

Paul Regnier: Save the cheerleader, save the world.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i Was the cheerleader once for Halloween. I was that cheerleader once for Halloween.

Paul Regnier: Oh, were you?

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: Okay. So I always thought that was interesting because that sort of does both of what you're saying, Lindsay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I made my own costume

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: It's like you tie it to something tangible, a real person.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: So it's like it's it's both personal.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Mm -hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: and concrete but then it's also like larger world stakes

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: So I don't know. I always thought that was an interesting quote.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes I love that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, I liked it.

Lindsay Franklin: And you you don't have to have. one or the other, or you don't have to have both, but it is, you know. I think it's nice to ah to have both. I think you can execute well.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes

Lindsay Franklin: in either of those spaces. Or you can do both. um You probably can't do neither. it It has to matter to somebody, right?

Paul Regnier: Oh, sure.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Like your, your stakes, but, but yeah, it's, there's not like a wrong answer here, but I love when there's both.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Unless you're just going pure villain. you know Whatever.

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

Paul Regnier: yeah Yeah. You finished the quest at meant nothing.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): else

Lindsay Franklin: Tch.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: It meant nothing.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Paul Regnier: It didn't change anything.

Lindsay Franklin: Nobody Nobody was saved or.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): destroy the world see so yeah you you have

Paul Regnier: He destroyed the world.

Lindsay Franklin: Or everybody was saved, but no one cared. I mean, I don't know.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No one cared.

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: yeah Oh man.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No, but

Paul Regnier: Ooh, there's something there. Wait a second.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That would work for a cat main character, okay?

Lindsay Franklin: but

Paul Regnier: There's something there.

Lindsay Franklin: three

Paul Regnier: Ah, I like that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but Some cat.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh my goodness.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, I saved the world.

Paul Regnier: I'm going to have to think about that one.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): again Ugh.

Paul Regnier: there's you got You have something there, Lindsay.

Lindsay Franklin: ah ah All right. Story ideas are happening, guys.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but got

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: I love it. We're in the kitchen right now.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yay.

Lindsay Franklin: We're in the kitchen.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yay.

Lindsay Franklin: Okay.

Paul Regnier: No, think about that. Think if that's your logline, I saved the world, but nobody noticed.

Lindsay Franklin: but Nobody cared.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): nobody cared nobody noticed yeah oh that's good That's good guys.

Lindsay Franklin: hey Nobody noticed.

Paul Regnier: And nobody cared.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh, yeah.

Paul Regnier: that's that's ah That's good.

Lindsay Franklin: No. Ugh! That is good.

Paul Regnier: Wait, I'm going to edit this part out.

Lindsay Franklin: I like it.

Paul Regnier: Someone's going to steal it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): hu

Paul Regnier: i've got to

Lindsay Franklin: Okay,

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: so this one. I think I know where we're going here, but Nova Bright or Grimdark.

Paul Regnier: Oh, Noble Bright.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): oh What if my stories are all grim bright, Lindsay?

Lindsay Franklin: ah What if your last name is Grim?

Paul Regnier: Oh.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): What if my last name is Grimm?

Lindsay Franklin: Then every... Everything you write is grim, kind of.

Paul Regnier: Grint.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): ah It is.

Paul Regnier: Grimm's Dark Fairy Tales.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Hey.

Lindsay Franklin: What?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): i'd I'd like to say I'm part Grim Re... Part Grim Reaper part Grimm's fairy tales but with Disney endings.

Paul Regnier: Nah.

Lindsay Franklin: Hey.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So. Like okay, did you ever watch the show Wednesday?

Paul Regnier: Uh -uh.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You know Wednesday Oh, I know.

Lindsay Franklin: You know I did. You know I did.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay. Lindsay did. Right. I know. Cause I, I started watching it and I texted Lindsay and I was like, um,

Lindsay Franklin: um

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): If you ever need an Enid, which is the colorful, sparkly werewolf, to your Wednesday, who's the goth. write or draw. um I'm down. So then we cosplayed that together at at a Roam Makers because...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Because duh.

Lindsay Franklin: Because of course we did.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Because of course we did. Yes, I love it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Because of course.

Paul Regnier: Is that from Adam Spambly?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes so i recommend it paul i think you would like wednesday

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): um It's got.

Lindsay Franklin: especially season one.

Paul Regnier: goth girls and Goth girls and sparkly werewolves?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): some Season one.

Lindsay Franklin: ah Season one.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yeah No, I know, but it's...

Paul Regnier: I don't know.

Lindsay Franklin: Season what?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): No, it's got, it's the humor is.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): definitely there and it's fun dark humor

Paul Regnier: Okay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And it's got some fun.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): twisty tropes and elements and it has a murder mystery as well so it there's

Paul Regnier: Huh.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Okay, I like that.

Lindsay Franklin: And it is Adam's family. It's Adam's family.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): yes and it's adam's family so there's a lot of stuff going on it's not like your typical

Lindsay Franklin: so Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Okay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): teeny bopper

Lindsay Franklin: here

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): ah academy where everybody you know is just

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah, it's not that, but it is.

Paul Regnier: i was i was more of a I was more of a Munsters guy.

Lindsay Franklin: But it's it's very good. Okay.

Paul Regnier: Does that matter?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I like the monsters, so I'm down with that.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: Ha ha. when Wednesday is good.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But.

Lindsay Franklin: and But I will say that the second season.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): My husband likes it.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, second season got a little...

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): My husband likes Wednesday.

Lindsay Franklin: a little gross for me, but the first season I heartily recommend. It's all of the things Sarah said.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh yeah, the first season.

Lindsay Franklin: Super fun.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): is really good.

Paul Regnier: Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. it's It's good for like October.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's very good.

Lindsay Franklin: viewing because it's got those vibes.

Paul Regnier: m

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It is.

Lindsay Franklin: Like it's got the spooky vibes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): it really Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: For sure.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and Enid is this werewolf And she's a werewolf. Okay. But she's... Like... sparkly. and she likes color.

Lindsay Franklin: Itchies. She's sweet and like, yeah, she's so cute.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): and And she, yes. So I'm like, my writing is kind of.

Lindsay Franklin: ah She's so cute.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Half Wednesday half Enid uh because it's it's grim bright

Lindsay Franklin: There you go.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Because there's always hope. I have to have hope. So if I had to pick one of those, I would pick Noble Bright because I need the hope. But I love me those grim elements.

Lindsay Franklin: but Same. Same. Yes. Okay. So one, speaking of Brandon Sanderson, um one enormous fantasy tome or seven reasonably sized fantasy novels.

Lindsay Franklin: Or if you're...

Paul Regnier: Seven.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Seven.

Lindsay Franklin: sanders Seven.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Seven.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, same. If you're Sanderson, then it is seven enormous ah tomes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Pulse. Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: And so, you know, we love him for that, though. um But yeah, same.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Seven reasonably sized ones for me. my My novels are always right around 100 ,000 words, personally.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: but

Paul Regnier: that's That's why War and Peace is still on my TBD list.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): See you, right. I like the checklist.

Paul Regnier: It's just too big.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So when I get like a book, I have a book that's like three in one and I think it's a David Eddings and I've had it forever. And I'm like, but it's three books, Sarah. You can still checkmark them off.

Lindsay Franklin: ah Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And I'm like, no, but I'll only look a third done.

Lindsay Franklin: It's true.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): And it'll be done with the first one. And I just can't handle that.

Lindsay Franklin: Still, it's a whole book though. Okay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's okay.

Lindsay Franklin: final this or that. dragons or unicorns.

Paul Regnier: Dragons.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Dragon. dragons

Lindsay Franklin: Dragons.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Try again.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: I do like unicorns, but if you're going to put them up against each other, come on.

Lindsay Franklin: All right.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I love unicorns, especially the unicorns like from, I have a unicorn based off of the one from the last battle from Narnia because that horn is all bloody.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): My unicorn goes in there and gets a bloody horn too.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm. Oh, yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So you know.

Paul Regnier: Natural weapon. There you go.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): rimda Exactly! You can't have a unicorn that doesn't -

Lindsay Franklin: That's awesome.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): used to

Lindsay Franklin: Use the sword.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): sword It's a sword, right there.

Paul Regnier: Hey, I just thought of something.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Right there.

Paul Regnier: You know how like the um like the old knights would put battle armor on their horses?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: did they ever fashion like an iron horn on the for On the front of the horse?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): But a small one, yes.

Lindsay Franklin: A spike. Yes, there are spikes.

Paul Regnier: Okay.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Paul Regnier: Because I'm just thinking like that should be that should be there.

Lindsay Franklin: Yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): There are

Lindsay Franklin: no

Paul Regnier: you know

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: I think they did.

Paul Regnier: Unless the horse throws his head back and stabs his own rider, that would not be good.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Definitely.

Lindsay Franklin: He'd have to like, really?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That's why it was probably smaller yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, I don't know. He'd have to be hypermobile, I feel like, to really get it back, to, like, get the writer on his back.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Oh yeah. Really, yeah. Like one of my old dogs could just like tip his head and and look at me from the other direction.

Lindsay Franklin: But, you know. ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I'm like. Are you part fuka?

Lindsay Franklin: Oh.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I don't know what that is. you know

Lindsay Franklin: Creepy.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Why are you doing that?

Lindsay Franklin: ah ah Okay, friends. Well, we have we have run long again, but I love it. I love it. We could talk all day long about fantasy, I'm pretty sure.

Paul Regnier: i blame I blame Sarah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Okay, in sorry.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: ah No, we we love it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): you

Lindsay Franklin: We love when we run long because it means we just had so much to say. And we could have talked about so many more things because we just we love fantasy around here.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): it's true

Lindsay Franklin: What what can we say? um But I have one final question for each of us.

Paul Regnier: Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: And it is if someone has never read any of your fantasy novels. Which one should they start with today and why? Why are you picking that one? So.

Paul Regnier: That's good.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Um...

Lindsay Franklin: Sarah, I'm going to start with you.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): me Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but I've been trying to pick this whole time because when people come to my table and they say, which one of these seven books?

Lindsay Franklin: ha

Paul Regnier: That's it. That's a tough one.

Lindsay Franklin: Mhm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I'm like, well. What do you like the most? um high fantasy urban fantasy etc um i'm gonna say

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): A dragon by any other name, because that is my standalone that is still currently available.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Summoner will be back, but it's not currently available. But because it's a standalone. And because it has the elements of. fantasy plus it has dragons so it has all of the all of the things i do like to write because it has the the feel of the dragons which can feel medieval and it has the feel of the technology in there which can feel sci -fi which I know is taboo on the fantasy show no I'm just kidding and then it has

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It's a standalone, so you can... You can read it and check it off on your checklist as whole series done. What? and so So that one, it's also a fairy tale retelling, which I love.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It is a Beauty and the Beast retelling.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): This time, Beauty is the Beast. And she wants Prince Charming dead.

Paul Regnier: Mmm.

Lindsay Franklin: I love it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Ciao.

Paul Regnier: Mmm.

Lindsay Franklin: It's very good guys. It's very good

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Aw, thanks.

Lindsay Franklin: So.

Paul Regnier: that's a good little That's a good teaser.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: I love that title, by the way.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Thank you.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: It's a great title.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Thank you. Thank you. It's very Shakespearean. Okay.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

Paul Regnier: I love it. yeah And titles are so hard to come up with for a good title.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Thanks.

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm. They are. Okay, Paul, what about you? What one fantasy book?

Paul Regnier: That's a tough one. I guess I'd have to say Bard Tidings.

Lindsay Franklin: Mmm.

Paul Regnier: um that's that's my i mean we were talking about the um

Lindsay Franklin: Mm hmm.

Paul Regnier: you know, the unlikely hero.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

Paul Regnier: and the reluctant hero and all that. And that's like. totally what that book is because I thought it's a fantasy and normally you have like, oh, the world needs a warrior. i think even on the back i'm like the world needs a warrior but i guess a bard will have to do you know

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I really love that.

Paul Regnier: because he's basically the you know he's called upon to do or he's in the right place at the right time where it's like there's nobody else he's kind of got to do it with his band of like ragtag band of unlikely heroes as well so you know he's got like a jester and a barmaid that that's the big fighting team right so

Lindsay Franklin: this

Lindsay Franklin: Love it.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I mean. It sounds perfect to me, so...

Lindsay Franklin: Love it.

Paul Regnier: It's just. it's It's fun. It's funny. I think it it it represents kind of like... the stuff I like to write pretty well.

Lindsay Franklin: he

Paul Regnier: So it's kind of like, if you love it, you'll probably like my other stuff. If you don't like it, you probably won't like any other stuff. ah it's like a you know it's a good primer for knowing like if you're my type of reader but um

Lindsay Franklin: Mm -hmm.

Paul Regnier: but even when I finished that book I just thought like okay I think I I think I hit something here. I think I really hit my stride of... the kind of books I want to write.

Lindsay Franklin: meaning

Paul Regnier: Like when I did that, that's how I felt. And then every book since I've just kind of felt like it's. i've maintained that momentum but it's sort of like crystallized a little bit more of like who like the types of stories that I want to write.

Paul Regnier: um

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: So yeah, that that one's kind of like a good milestone for me and I like to recommend it.

Lindsay Franklin: I love that. That's so great. i Even though I wrote this question, you think that I would, you know, like have a really good answer to it, but I've struggled to sort of like, like, Oh, which one, which one of my book ones do I recommend people start with?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): mm -hmm mm -hmm

Lindsay Franklin: And I'm, I'm really tempted to say the unraveling of Emlyn Dulane because that's a much newer series. And so I'm excited about it. And so, um and I, I love.

Lindsay Franklin: that duology i had so much fun writing it and so if you're um if you are interested in you know classics or that metafiction magical libraries stuff like that that we were talking about um that it's a really fun one and i feel like that is a window into my brain If you want to know what... the inside of my brain looks like.

Lindsay Franklin: probably the unraveling of emily lane and maybe even more so the second book um the restitching of

Paul Regnier: yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Camille Dulane, that's a window into my brain. The story peddler is like a window into my heart. And so it's hard.

Paul Regnier: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: It's kind of hard for me to choose between these two. If you're more of like a more of a classic fantasy kind of a person, then the story peddler is where you should go in my fiction. If you want to know how weird my brain is, then the unraveling of Emlyn Dulane is the ah the one to start with.

Lindsay Franklin: So um that is my answer. I broke my own rules because I have one. I wrote this question. but one book in all caps.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Point.

Lindsay Franklin: And here I am.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Just one.

Lindsay Franklin: telling you two different books. I am so sorry.

Paul Regnier: I would definitely say story peddler. You shouldn't, you should definitely go for not, not that like, you know, but like, like you said, like don't.

Lindsay Franklin: Story peddler.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah.

Paul Regnier: Like, don't miss that book. That that was a really good book.

Lindsay Franklin: Hmm.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Thank you. Thank you.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I think.

Lindsay Franklin: I do. Yeah. Go ahead.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): You definitely like both series. If you like one, you're going to like the other.

Paul Regnier: Yeah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): So yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know that Story Peddler has a lot more of that like classic feel. If you're a portal fantasy person, then, you know, Emlyn is the way to go. But um yeah, I almost feel like Story Peddler is is maybe a better primer.

Paul Regnier: Mm hmm.

Lindsay Franklin: um But Emlyn is the new one.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: So I'm like, that one, guys. So yeah, it's hard.

Paul Regnier: Right. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: It's a hard question.

Paul Regnier: It's hard not to like your newest. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Franklin: Right.

Paul Regnier: I get, I totally get that.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yeah. Yep.

Lindsay Franklin: It's the new shiny sparkly thing. And I'm excited about it. Cause yeah. So anyway.

Paul Regnier: I do feel like if you want if you want more imaginative, like, you know, there's no bounds.

Lindsay Franklin: e

Paul Regnier: Like. the Emmeline Delane is the one to go with. Cause that one really, you just kind of let loose on that one and it is fun.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah, it's just, it is, it's a lot more out there for sure. But yeah, definitely a window into my mind.

Paul Regnier: But. In a good way.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, yeah it's yeah

Lindsay Franklin: Yes. Well, friends, this was so fun. And thank you, Sarah, so much for joining us.

Paul Regnier: Thank you, Sarah.

Lindsay Franklin: just

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Thanks for having me.

Lindsay Franklin: Oh. Absolutely. and so If people are looking for you online, they can find you for sure on Instagram. Can you tell us what your handle is?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. Okay, without looking it up, I'm going to try, I believe. It's either SD Grimm. or s period deep.

Lindsay Franklin: mm -hmm

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Period Grimm. I don't think it's the periods, but I always have to look it up. I always have to look up my own Instagram handle.

Lindsay Franklin: Yeah. You know, if you search. If you search SDGram, you will find it on Instagram for sure.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: um So people can find you there. Is there anywhere else online that they can find you?

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes. also sdgrim .com

Lindsay Franklin: Perfect. Yes. So if you're interested in more of Sarah's work and what she does, she is also a freelance editor.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: So, yep.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): That is true.

Lindsay Franklin: All of the, yep, all of the things for Sarah. Thank you so, so much for joining us.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes, thank you for having me

Lindsay Franklin: We loved having you.

Paul Regnier: Thank you, Sarah.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I loved it too.

Lindsay Franklin: Yes.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): It was fun.

Lindsay Franklin: And thank you to all of our, yeah.

Paul Regnier: ah

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): What did you do for work today? Oh, I talked about fun stuff.

Lindsay Franklin: ah We went to Planet Fantasy and just talked about things we love.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): but Yes.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: This is what we do for a living, guys.

Paul Regnier: ah

Lindsay Franklin: We're so lucky.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): Yes.

Lindsay Franklin: We're so lucky.

S.D. Grimm (Sarah): I tell people don't be a hater just because reading is part of my job.

Lindsay Franklin: that's right that's right Thank you, of course, to all of our listeners for joining us for these kind of two extended episodes. We love it. We could talk about this all day long. So we appreciate you and we will see you next time.

Lindsay Franklin: Bye.

Paul Regnier: Bye. aye