Transcript
Speaker: Made on Zencastr. Because Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production and distribution process so easy.
Speaker: There is a link with a built-in discount in the description. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abbasida and people who think outside the box about how work works.
Speaker: with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone. I'm your host, Michael Millward, Managing Director of Appesita. In this episode of The Independent Minds, I'm finding out about how an Enneagram can be used in the workplace from Kimberly Collins, who has written a book called Enneagram in the Workplace.
Speaker: Kimberly is based in Rochester, but not that one. the one in Minnesota in the Midwest in the United States. I have not visited Rochester in Minnesota, but if I ever get the chance to go, i will take advantage of the trade prices on travel that I have access to as a result of being a member of the Ultimate Travel Club.
Speaker: I have added a link to the description with a built-in discount so that you can become a member of the Ultimate Travel Club and just like me travel at trade prices. Now that I have paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to, and probably good enough to share with your friends, family and work colleagues as well.
Speaker: As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we will not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Hello, Kimberly. Hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker: I'm really looking forward to this this conversation. i think You'll have to tell me, did I pronounce Enneagram correctly? You did, yes. I've been worried about it all afternoon, to be honest.
Speaker: There's an awful lot of vowels in a word to try and work out how to say it. But please, could we start by just explaining what an Enneagram is? Absolutely. So the Enneagram is a personality framework that is based on discovering the core motivations that are driving your life.
Speaker: So unlike some other personality frameworks that ask different questions, the Enneagram is asking you why. Why do you do what you do?
Speaker: who Some deep and searching questions. So what sort of career have you had that means that you got interested in Enneagrams? I always like to say I came to the Enneagram by way of necessity because I was part of a co-owning, co-founding duo that started a large orthodontic practice. And during my time there, i was asked to do everything that didn't require me to work on somebody's teeth. So hiring, firing, payroll, taxes, insurance companies, and difficult situations at the workplace. And I found myself
Speaker: about six years deep into 11 year tenure in this position, burning out at just a very rapid clip. I had so many external stressors in my life, but it was not only the external stressors, but my own reaction to those stressors that were exacerbating the situation.
Speaker: And I had a friend introduce me to the Enneagram. um It helped expose some of my motivations, my patterns that grew out of those motivations. And it helped me step my way slowly back from burnout. I decided to then get certified in the Enneagram. I started coaching my employees on how they could apply the Enneagram to their lives and help them work through self-awareness and social awareness issues that were coming ah up in their lives. I wrote a book so that they could reference information about themselves and other people during their busy work days. And now this is what I do full-time is I work with teams. I work with leaders specifically in the healthcare industry and how learning more about themselves and the people in their world will create more harmonious, productive workplaces. Great.
Speaker: So does an Enneagram start as a tool for individuals then? I would say yes. I mean, all all pathways on improving your emotional intelligence, which is the ultimate goal of using anything like a personality framework, ah the first place you always start is with yourself. That's the only place that we can really make any positive change. And then the next step is learning about the people in your world as well.
Speaker: no This is one of the things that as a human resources professional with a specialty in in training, you've just described the way in which I've always thought that managers need to be developed.
Speaker: key part is The key part is to understand yourself and then to understand how you interact with other people. And then if you're managing more than one person, how you're going to interact with a different personality and then how you're going to interact with the two people who've got different personalities.
Speaker: What is it that you've got to bring out from yourself that is going to help you to do that communication that interaction most effectively so that was just my idea from my experience but someone has actually turned it into like a proper proper product and and an approach something that you can get certified in so it's really good great minds think alike but i totally get what you mean about before you can understand someone else
Speaker: You first got to understand yourself. And I suppose the big challenge for people when they're using this is probably that you've got to do some really deep soul searching and be really honest with yourself and not the sort of, this is the person that I would like to be. So this is how I'll describe myself in using this test. It's got to be, this is the person you really are.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. i think we all want to have a certain persona we believe ourselves to be and that we think we're projecting to the outside world. And I think what's important to know about the Enneagram is that each of the types, there are nine of them, are all wonderful, equal, and capable.
Speaker: There is no one type that is better for leadership or in relationships. um But we are all going to have things that we need to... have the courage to look at and acknowledge and make better decisions based on it. So with the Enneagram, it's not about trying to become a different person, but to shepherd our behavior better so that we can connect with other people better, have better collaboration and communication and conflict. So it's not about being different, but just being better. But it it takes a very courageous, self inventory to be able to make any strides yes in our emotional intelligence. Yeah.
Speaker: So it's the answering of the question why helps us to divide our emotional intelligence as well, because it's linking to the real us, the authentic us.
Speaker: And once we connect with that and understand ourselves better, that leads to improved in emotional intelligence. yes absolutely no it's it's fascinating fascinating that that this is something that we can use to actually understand ourselves better by focusing on those questions of like why did we react in this way Why did we behave in that way?
Speaker: What was motivating us at a particular point in time to then understand the type of person that we are and then how we have to, how we could interact or improve our interactions with ourselves and with other people.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. So we go through this process for ourselves as individuals. Is this the sort of process where we're we're completing some sort of exercise and then we can get the results back or is it something that could actually be quite um how shall i say it negative experience to so do this by ourselves is it the sort of thing that it could be done by yourself but is better done with the support of someone else I guess it would depend on the person, but I will say that the Enneagram, unlike some of the other personality tests out there, such it is the most difficult to test using an online test um or even tests that you find in books and come out with an accurate type.
Speaker: Part of the reason is that the tests will frequently ask questions regarding behavior, but the Enneagram is all based on the the reason behind the behavior, the core motivation behind that behavior. So it can be difficult to find your way to your type.
Speaker: When I'm talking to people and and we're working through how to find their type on their own, i usually recommend read a book, read all nine types, and sit with those types that will feel familiar to you. It could be you. It could be a family member. It could be your high school bully. I'm not sure, but It will be something that you need to sit with and reflect on for yourself. um After that point, there is a little bit of a misunderstanding of where to take this information because the Enneagram is not helping us show, figure out how to grow. It's exposing areas of ourselves that we have become unconscious of for the purpose of meeting some side
Speaker: some kind of societal expectation. So it's an awareness tool. It's saying, hey, this is what is underneath everything. This is the core of the problem. It's not the symptom. So we finally got down to the core. And so then after that, it can be extremely helpful to work with a coach if you have past trauma, to work with a therapist on how to take the information that you've now learned and move that towards some kind of positive change in your life.
Speaker: Hmm. It's not something just to do very casually then, is it? This is a serious process to go through. ah Yes, I would I would say that it's it's a more serious process than maybe is treated when it is introduced. um But it's I don't mind that people get interested in it because it is a personality framework and those are in general very interesting to a lot of people.
Speaker: that is totally fine to come to it that way. But when you want to make improvements in your life, you will need to take actual steps at looking at areas of your life that are very difficult to face and making decisions based on the information that you learn.
Speaker: Yes, I can see that. What sort of results have you seen people achieve? I'm imagining that people are going things like, yes, that is me, but they've never really acknowledge that before they've seen it through the test?
Speaker: I think some of the biggest things that I'll see when people are really digging into the Enneagram and they are courageously looking at those core motivations, which are comprised of your core fear, your core desire, and then your core weakness and core longing. But those core fear and core desire, these are things that are propelling us throughout our days. They are things we are running from or running towards. And what I've seen people, when they truly tackle what is driving their motivations, ah driving their behaviors throughout their days, that they'll become less reactive, more responsive, specifically in conflict or areas where they can have emotional triggers come up. Because in the Enneagram world, emotional triggers are going to be anything that makes someone think their core fear is just about to happen.
Speaker: And so when people are making strides in this, they're becoming more conscious of how that next reaction they were about to have, oh, that's maybe not in my best interest. This is me responding in a way based on patterns that have developed from the core fear, core desire. I'm going to pause before I do this. and make a better decision. So it it won't be huge changes in short periods of time, but huge changes over longer period of time because you're interrupting patterns that have been happening in your life up to this point.
Speaker: You get back to being more you, I suppose, in many ways and not the learnt behaviors from this is how I have to behave in order to survive or succeed in this environment.
Speaker: You get back to the behaviors that are you. And as a result of that, though it may be difficult, you'll be more authentic to yourself. And so you end up being happier, enjoying your work more, making a better contribution.
Speaker: right So that's all the individual side of it. How does all of that transfer more into a work environment? And how are employers using the Enneagram?
Speaker: So in the workplace, it's very important that at least in the United States, it is illegal to use personality frameworks like the MBTI or the Enneagram as part of job placement or hiring process. So we can't give someone an Enneagram test and then decide based on that personality test if they're going to be hired. We can though use this with our full-fledged team members to help navigate some of the bigger areas of conflict in the workplace.
Speaker: Each Enneagram type has specific emotional triggers as well as specific conflict styles, which if we can expose those can help us navigate relationships in the workplace way better. um it is It's one of those things that if we understand even just that somebody else has a totally different perspective and core motivation that is driving their behaviors, that can open up our empathy and compassion for another person. It again can help us slow down our reactions and aim for more responses in our interactions with other people.
Speaker: Specifically in my own experience, it's helped navigate those miscommunications that felt uncomfortable, maybe could be erring towards the side of conflict and would allow two people to be able to slow down, name the stories or the fears they were thinking were coming up so that they could actually get down to the root of the conflict without just reacting about emotional triggers or miscommunications that were coming up.
Speaker: Right. So it's down to that part of the understanding of other people. An employer would use an Enneagram in their organization to improve communication between colleagues and also to build teamwork because the big mistake I think that happens very often in a work situation is some of thee these personality frameworks is that there is a perception that
Speaker: one one element of the framework or one of the outcomes is of higher value than the others and i've seen people say oh the test is wrong right because i know i am this type of person because that means if i'm if i can give myself that label that means i'm dynamic i'm enthusiastic and i'm I'm the person who gets things done.
Speaker: Whereas the survey assessment has given them a definition of a very special role, but it hasn't got that same sort of glamour.
Speaker: And an Enneagram seems to be in a work environment, seems to be missing that element of competition into which one of the the nine different outcomes is better than any other.
Speaker: it is a challenge using a personality framework in the workplace to make sure there is not some kind of bias on the outcome preferred by the employer.
Speaker: I've seen this in my own workplace where there's a perception that being a certain type of person is the preferred type to be.
Speaker: And there has to be a sense of psychological safety for the team before bringing in something as personal and exposing as a personality framework.
Speaker: But if they can do this, and if an ah an employer can work with the team on establishing that any type, any outcome is absolutely wonderful for the team, then they can get the results that will help the team understand each other.
Speaker: I've specifically gotten this question um using the MBTI because I'm also a practitioner in MBTI. i Getting asked, would we want to hire based on a certain personality type?
Speaker: And my answer is no, we would not want to create a team that is homogenous, that we have all the same perspectives. We have all the same personality types on a team.
Speaker: Because then we're creating the situation where we are trying to solve problems using the thinking that got us into this situation in the first place. We want to have different personality types and different perspectives of the world to balance us out and give us the opportunity to figure out and solve problems without using the same thinking that got us into it.
Speaker: Yes, and I'm thinking from how you've described the Enneagram that if the people are on the team who are trying to address a challenge of problem understand themselves in terms of the Enneagram and understand everyone else on the team as well.
Speaker: then those people who have the more outgoing personalities will understand that other people may be little bit more reluctant to speak their their opinions to air their views and that that the first group the the outgoing people They use what the lessons from the Enneagram effectively can temper their behavior so that they don't make it more difficult for the introvert person to speak up as well.
Speaker: Absolutely. And this is the best use of the Enneagram is using it to take on somebody else's perspective and experience for a moment and create empathy.
Speaker: from using that perspective. And like you said, making adjustments to how you go about a collaborative experience so that it's more comfortable for someone else, not changing things so you're manipulating another person, but changing things so that the other person feels like they can contribute as well.
Speaker: Yes. but It helps you work as a team. You know, a community, a team. It's, yeah, I think you've convinced me. What happens that within an organization within a team that can mean that the Enneagram fails to deliver results? It doesn't work as it should do because what sort of things make it difficult to actually use the Enneagram effectively?
Speaker: The Enneagram is going to suffer from the same limitations as any kind of other outside change that's trying to come in.
Speaker: The issue is going to be consistency as well as focus of implementation. It is not going to be something that the team is going to be able to listen to the information and know right away how to implement it.
Speaker: When I've seen the Enneagram brought into teams, or I've been asked to come and talk to teams about the Enneagram, when I know it's not going to stick is when it is, there is no follow-up and there is no plan on how the information they learn about themselves and about other people is going to be applied on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker: That might seem really intimidating to say this needs to be a daily practice moving forward, but I think it it's more the idea that the Enneagram and any other kind of personality framework or positive change you're trying to make in a workplace is not going to be something that you touch once and get all the benefit out of it. You're going to need to keep circling back and learning more about yourself and the people in your world and learning more about how to navigate communication, conflict, and relationships in general so that you can get the most out of it. So that's where I see it really fail, is this kind of treating it as a workshop that's no follow-up afterward. You know that it's going to be something they remember every once in a while, oh yeah, I'm a type seven, and it's not gonna be something that's integrated into their lives.
Speaker: So, yeah, you need to be thinking strategically about it and you need to be incorporating it into plans for sort cultural management development and change within the organization as well. Yeah.
Speaker: So theyre what sort of questions does a management team need to ask itself then as part of the process to decide whether or not that they're going to implement Enneagrams?
Speaker: I think the question would be really asking themselves what they want to get out of this, because it could be that the Enneagram is not even the right tool for this.
Speaker: But say what they want to get out of it is that they want to improve communication or conflict responses in one or some key individuals on a team.
Speaker: Some questions they would need to ask then is, okay, so how are we going to help this team member or these team members integrate this as some kind of daily practice, or at least help them integrate it in a way that they can apply it to these key areas. And that's where using a professional, like a coach, an executive coach coming in and taking the information that has been learned as a team and helping an individual apply it to specific areas,
Speaker: in their lives can be the most beneficial is saying, this is the strategic area. We want some kind of improvement. And this is how we are going to attack it with key individuals or even just team workshops to navigate it then.
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. getting the feeling that it's a a strategic decision. as much as it is an operational one. And it starts right at the top of the organization and say, this is a tool that we will use in order to help us achieve these objectives.
Speaker: Yes. Rather than, this is a tool that might throw up something interesting. Right, right. Start with the end in mind. ah Yes.
Speaker: Okay. So, I think you've convinced, I know you've convinced me. that this is a good idea for an organization to look at. But what you see as the future for Enneagrams across business and different types of organizations? what What does the future look like? I'll even zoom out further and say the future of what the Enneagram and MBTI and Colby is helping bring about is self-awareness, social awareness, and of course, improving emotional intelligence.
Speaker: And emotional intelligence is becoming more and more important in our organizations. Gone are the days where ah a leader can be brilliant but terrible at managing their teams.
Speaker: We are frequently promoted to the level of our incompetence. that That's the Peter Prinsall, of course. But what I always like to say is spin it on its head. We're promoted to the level where the emphasis changes between an emphasis on our hard skills to an emphasis on our soft skills. Those emotional intelligence skills, these are only becoming more important. So what I see moving throughout the workplaces and the small businesses and healthcare care practices I work with is a longing for skills and tools to help with improving emotional intelligence. This will not only help individuals facing burnout on the day-to-day basis, but also individuals who are trying to help their teams become more harmonious and productive.
Speaker: I love that expression that you used as, in your career, there are times when you'll be hired and promoted on the basis of your hard skills. where you reach a point in your career where your soft skills are more important than your hard skills because there are other people who've got the hard skills.
Speaker: Right. Your job is to develop the emotional intelligence to encourage those people to want to apply those hard skills in the way that you need them applied.
Speaker: And it's only by understanding ourselves and other people and our interactions with them that we will gain that competence. Yes.
Speaker: Now, Kimberly, it's been such a very interesting conversation about something that I didn't really quite understand when we started, but thank you so much for making it so interesting. You've certainly made me think. Thank you very much.
Speaker: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. has. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abysida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Kimberly Collins, an expert in Enneagrams and author of the book, Enneagrams in the Workplace.
Speaker: You can find out more about both of us by using the links in the description. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of The Independent Minds as much as Kimberley and I have enjoyed making it.
Speaker: So please give it like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. You'll probably also want to share the link with your family, friends and work colleagues as well.
Speaker: Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.
