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Episode 22 - Havok & Polaris
0 Playsin 16 hours
Issues: Marvel Team-Up #69-70, Defenders #62-65
Last we saw Alex Summers, Havok, and Lorna Dane, Polaris, they were being blasted point-blank by the god-tier-power-level Firelord. So what happened to them next? Matt and Pat, brave podcast adventurers that they are, venture to find out! Detour with us as we scour the Marvel Universe for HAVOK and POLARIS.
Topics Include:
We'll FINALLY get an origin for the Living Pharaoh... right? Nooo not Professor Craig's office! White men dressed as pharaohs. With Great Boredom Comes Whatever. A web disaster. Bunkies. Spider-Man twerking. A strong face, a weak ass. Gods vs Cosmic. Spider-Man foraging. The limits of Diplomatic Immunity. Membership Madness! DAVID KRAFT!! Drawing bad cinematography. "Do I have to be BLACK Goliath?" A game of frisbee. "I just remembered that I'm an Avenger." Stealing your Dad's car as a joke. Riding in a car with a Goliath. Plantman is here too. Toad has regressed. Flipping off the fun switch. "The Porcupine is here!"
Write in to Pat's Email Corner: mutantmenacepod@gmail.com
Instagram: @mutantmenacepod
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Promotion Strategy
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, Pat. Hey, Matt. How are you doing? I'm pretty good, actually. This isn't about you. This is about the listeners. Hey, listeners. We have had an idea. Yeah, we had a very good idea, Matt.
00:00:12
Speaker
We were thinking about old forms of promotion, forms of marketing for people who can't afford marketing teams. And- We were thinking about how crowded of a field the podcast world is. And we have a bunch of flyers.
00:00:24
Speaker
We thought maybe it would be fun to rely on you, our listeners, to get those flyers out to places that we can't reach. We're going back to paper. Matt, you and I have been visiting comic book shops in the American Northeast. We've covered about a 30-mile radius to this point.
00:00:42
Speaker
Right. It's slow going. And we know that you guys are spread out across the United States, even sometimes other countries. So what can they do, Pat? What they can do is take some of these flyers that we printed up.
00:00:55
Speaker
And leave them with local comic book shops. Just say, hey, ah my friends, you can call us friends. My friends run a podcast. And would you mind just leaving some flyers in your flyer area?
00:01:07
Speaker
If that sounds interesting to you, send us an email at mutantmenacepod at gmail.com with the subject line street team. Leave us your address and tell us your favorite X-Man.
00:01:19
Speaker
And me and Pat, neither of whom can draw, will draw you a picture of her of your favorite X-Man as a thank you. Drop us a line. Become part of our street team if that sounds fun to you.
00:01:30
Speaker
Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. let's ah Let's play the show, Pat. Play the song. I'm Trish Tobey with W.A.R.C. reporting to you live from Westchester, New York, where there appears to be some sort of mutant menace on the loose.
Listener Engagement and Street Team Formation
00:02:10
Speaker
Hey, I'm Pat Reber. And I'm Matt Allcamp. And say it with us, Pete. Welcome to Mutant Menace. man Matt, I thought you were going to fix that clip.
00:02:22
Speaker
i don what What time do I have to fix a clip? Thank you, Pete. you Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're perfect. Yeah. How are you doing, Pat?
00:02:33
Speaker
Matt, I'm... That was fast. What fuck? Is there not even time? this Somebody's got to talk to you. with Somebody call our IT t guy. Okay. well i All right. It is time for Pat's email corner.
00:02:46
Speaker
We do have a couple of emails today, both from familiar listeners.
Listener Emails and Feedback
00:02:51
Speaker
This first one comes from what the Sinewave podcast. Whoa. Oh, a whole podcast emailed us. let's let's do Let me clarify.
00:03:01
Speaker
Okay. Sinewave Sean is writing to us from his podcast account. Okay. All right. Well, it's, hey. Listen, if he doesn't want to give us his ah personal email, i guess that's the level we're at. We thought we were...
00:03:14
Speaker
podcast friends. Anyway, he says, Hey, Pat, tell Matt, I'm sorry, he's he subjects the email top of the morning to you. and And he goes on to say, Hey, Pat, tell Matt that as a fellow New Mutants enjoyer, I think that most of the cast of that movie are great, but it would have been ah a lot better served if they'd just been allowed to make it a weird horror movie. As much as Anya Taylor-Joy was great as magic, those racially charged comments she made to Danny were pretty rough.
00:03:40
Speaker
Yes, that is true. Absolutely right. Maybe Cyclops is so insistent on letting everyone know he's not a baby because he now knows that being turned into a baby is a thing that can happen to people. That's a good point. ah No comments on the depiction of Ireland in these issues. It's all 100% accurate.
00:03:58
Speaker
Every Irish castle is full of trap doors. All the roads are bad and there are leprechauns running around everywhere, pulling people into holes in the wall. Oh, we, we do have shoulders here, both on roads and right below our heads.
00:04:11
Speaker
Also, here's his last Ireland fact. Eamon is pronounced as Eamon. And then he goes on Here's the problem I have. He goes on to say... say it differently? Don't worry, Pat. You got it. Here's what I said. Eamon. You said it with a D at the end. Yeah, I did. And sometimes i read my regional accent takes over, so it may come across more as Eamon.
00:04:34
Speaker
know the name. What I was doing was adding a D because... i I could have sworn that's an Irish name. It's actually a name from Game of Thrones.
00:04:45
Speaker
Did I say Eamon or Eamon? No, you've been pronouncing it right, which is why he says, don't worry, Pat, you got it. Okay. Well, I think he means like you can do this, not you got it right.
00:05:00
Speaker
Well, we can't go back and check, so we're just going to have to move forward. Well, thank you so much
Insights on Marvel Comics and Films
00:05:06
Speaker
the email. That episode is in the vault now. ah We also have an email from Weapon Jason, who... Ooh, I like that guy, too.
00:05:16
Speaker
I think he's replying to what episode 20 when he says, Hey, Matt and Pat agree that Sinners is a great film. And you have to note and have to note that Michael B. Jordan had another MCU link since he was amazing as Killmonger in Black Panther.
00:05:30
Speaker
He goes on to, we knew that. And of course we did. ah But our movie talk has made him add new mutants and the outfit to his watch lists.
00:05:42
Speaker
Hell yeah. Let us know how you feel. Oh, okay. So he goes on paraphrasing here just to agree with us on a handful of things. Number one, Imperial Guard fucking rules.
00:05:53
Speaker
Number two, the splash panels to open issue 107 also rule. He points out that Terry Austin's inks really do provide more of a Christmas to Burns' pencils. So when we get to some of his... I think it's like...
00:06:09
Speaker
Byrne's third issue on the X-Men, it just looks way smoother. right i There is, he says, this is really another level of writing and art that no one else is doing at this time.
00:06:20
Speaker
And you can see why it'll influence a whole generation of writers and artists. And then finally, ah he points out, keep in mind, the comic book shop is not really much of a thing at this time. Most readers are getting these off spinner racks in the supermarket or in a department store. So that Logan revelation is even more of an inside baseball secret on the playground than you think.
00:06:40
Speaker
That... It's interesting. Oh, yeah, because I think you did say that was like... It's like a comic book shop nerd. Currency. Right. yeah But they... yeah that which It's just playground.
00:06:55
Speaker
um Yeah. The thing about John... the water cooler if you're an adult that enjoys X-Men. The thing about John Burns... John Burns...
00:07:06
Speaker
inkers for john burn is that john burn's best anchor is john burn um he inks himself on alpha flight and as as far as i've seen that was john burn's best art better the only one that knows what he's going for right right right and uh guess who colors john burn throughout uh his alpha flight run who's that some yankus well thank you for the email weapon jason is that is that all weapon jason had to say it is, but I feel like we can discuss some of his points a little, uh, point. Oh, okay i sorry. We can't, we can't.
00:07:43
Speaker
I wish, I really wish. Thank you. Sound cue. That is the end of Pat's email corner. guess Pat's email corner is over. Well, only one thing left to do.
00:07:54
Speaker
Have you done anything X-Men related this week? You know, pat I have. um Really? Yeah, this week I went to my lady friend.
00:08:06
Speaker
Her favorite band was... One of her favorite bands was playing in Philadelphia. and And was Lord Huron. I'm not a huge fan of the music, but...
00:08:17
Speaker
I went and the stagecraft was really cool. They had really interesting backdrops and a lot of cool like set design. They had a whole storyline running throughout the throughout the show in between songs and during songs. that you know I don't know how much it related to the songs since I'm not a big fan, but I think it was just independent of the songs. And it was really it was fun. i also you know ah got a yeah a $23 mixed drink in a, in a souvenir ah plastic cocktail shaker.
00:08:56
Speaker
Oh, if it came with a souvenir cup, then absolutely worth it. And it's yeah. So, and Matt, that sounds very exciting. What, yeah um, what part of this was X-Men related?
00:09:08
Speaker
If you remember the, the feedback I gave you a couple episodes back about. Yeah. I, I guess it, yeah, I guess. It wasn't really. Pat, did you do anything X-Men related this week?
00:09:19
Speaker
In fact, I did, Matt. Oh, ok I read through. So when you and I went on our little tour. Our cute little ibar cute widow tour laying it down ah When you and I went ah across Philadelphia, New Jersey to a handful of local comic book shops. You already did this one.
00:09:39
Speaker
plenty of comics and ended up picking up Siege, ah the event by Brian Michael Bendis. And finally read through it. I've actually never read it. How'd you feel? yeah Pretty good. There is one frame where they throw it to Cyclops looking at the screen and saying, I told you this would happen.
00:09:57
Speaker
And then there's another panel where somebody refers to Scott Summers. ah Yeah, that is... x-men related i was talking to somebody i was trying to i had some friends over for dungeons and dragons last night and they saw it and asked me about it and i was trying to explain the events era of marvel and brian bendis is sort of overarching and i don't want to spoil anything because some of it is very heavily x-men tied but uh just like the
00:10:29
Speaker
what is it Secret War into House of M into Civil War into Secret Invasion into Dark Reign into Siege into... Fear Itself. think Civil War II? No, it's Fear Itself and then Civil War II. maybe it is Civil War II.
00:10:51
Speaker
No, it is Fear Itself and then Civil War two And then I think... Not long after that is Secret Wars, which is when Hickman kind of takes over the event plotting. And and I don't think they've ever really left that mode, right?
00:11:09
Speaker
If I'm remembering correctly, I don't i don't know. i think the company-wide crossover slowed down there, and then you would get title-wide crossovers, like X-Men events and Avengers events, but not very many Marvel-wide
Critique of Spider-Man and Marvel Team-Ups
00:11:25
Speaker
crossovers. This is an era I'm not very familiar with, so I might be just fucking making shit up.
00:11:31
Speaker
I fell off a little bit. I've come back recently when they did, like... We also missed Age of Ultron, I think, was in there. Oh, yeah, there was a... ah yeesh There's just so much going on. There's still impossible to quantify from 2000 to like 2015 was just nonstop events. It's hard to I mean, I think that might be what made me start putting Marvel Comics down and why I was I was gone for a while.
00:11:59
Speaker
It's why you went back to the very beginning. Yeah, yeah. yeah so Well, i I think I stopped entirely for a couple years. I was just so tired of it. I was reading actual books, Pat.
00:12:12
Speaker
That's stupid. We missed Axis. We missed, like, there was the War of Kings. There was so much that happened in there that we missed. Original Sin was in there. Right. They just, it was this endless loop. And just listen, like...
00:12:27
Speaker
There's some incredibly good comics in that Marvel 15 year run, right? Yeah. But it's just, it got to be so much. I just want so much people to get back to their normal lives once in a while.
00:12:41
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. i mean, that's what killed comics in the nineties was all the events and all the special issues and such. Oh, I can't wait till we get to the fucking 90s.
00:12:53
Speaker
I am in the 90s in my personal read. And man, it goes like there are certain bits that's like, oh this actually rules. This is better than I thought. And then suddenly it just dive bombs and just plummets into garbage.
00:13:08
Speaker
um Things are going to funny again. There's there was clearly a thing that Chris Claremont was building to for years ago. And he got so frustrated by the way that Jim Lee was fucking it up that he just quits mid arc and Fabian Macieza has to pick it up.
00:13:28
Speaker
Can't wait to get there and complain and complain and complain. Stick around, folks. Only about three more years of this podcast before we reach this era.
00:13:38
Speaker
The only way, though, Pat, that we can get there. The only way out is through. And you know how we get through? I know what you're trying to set me up for, Matt, but I don't know that what we read today is actually getting us any closer.
00:13:52
Speaker
Yeah, it feels like it's we are circling farther and wider and it's making us making our journey a little less direct. But Pat, I want to tell you about Marvel team up number 69. Night of the Living God. Whoa.
00:14:10
Speaker
night of the living god who Oh, wow. That sounds sick. Living God. Sounds like it's going to be incredible, right? a living God.
00:14:24
Speaker
So, ah author, Chris Claremont, penciler, John Byrne. Chris Claremont John Byrne? Wow. And a living God. This is going to be amazing. Yeah.
00:14:35
Speaker
R Villamonte is the inker. Jay Costanza is the letterer. Mary Titus is the colorist. And Archie Goodwin is the editor at this point. I do want to say, this episode, we are trying to track where Havoc and Polaris were during the time that we didn't see them in the X-Men.
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And we made some reference to it last episode, I think, where there was a situation where Alex Summers had been kidnapped and Lorna Day needed help.
00:15:09
Speaker
So now we're going find out what that is. This all sounds so fucking exciting, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. John Byrne, living God, Alex Summers kidnapped. We get to find out what's been happening.
00:15:20
Speaker
Release date, February 21st, 1978. Cover date, May 1978. As Alex Summers and Lorna Dane take a nice walk along the banks of Muriel. Three ah white men dressed like Steve Martin's King Tut with super complicated guns. them from above.
00:15:43
Speaker
Oh boy. Okay, we know where this is going. The couple are reminiscing about recent events when the white guys in Egyptian headdresses fire lasers at them. and Alex's Havoc costume suddenly appears on his body as he blasts the extras from the mummy.
00:15:58
Speaker
it When more show up in some Blade Runner looking hovercraft, Havoc recognizes their headdresses as belonging to the crew of the Living Pharaoh.
00:16:09
Speaker
I guess he's officially taken that name, the Living Pharaoh, since he never named himself the last time we saw this character. Yeah, and Scott said, he's like some kind of living pharaoh. ah This guy, yeah for listeners that don't remember, the worst.
00:16:27
Speaker
the worst He is a professor of archaeology at some some unnamed university in Egypt. He thinks himself a pharaoh, and he thinks all pharaohs mutants imbued with great power by God.
00:16:42
Speaker
Yes, that's what he believes, because he is a mutant, and somehow his powers are linked to Alex Summers. How, Matt? It's, but we don't know.
00:16:54
Speaker
Okay, here's the thing about this that I'm excited for. We complained and complained and complained that the four issues the Living Pharaoh was in back in the 1960s, they never told us why he was doing what he was doing. They never gave us an origin.
00:17:10
Speaker
They never even gave us a full name. We just know as Professor Abdel, right? Yeah. We only know – we don't even know his first name. Yeah. So this has to be Chris Claremont going back and fixing that, right?
00:17:24
Speaker
We have to get an origin here, right? Yeah, yeah. We're in good hands, at least with a shitty villain. So I'm excited. i think we're finally going to get some background on who this fucking guy is because I don't know who he is.
00:17:36
Speaker
all right. let's keep Let's keep going. Alright. Polaris, shouting her own name, uses her magnetic powers to tear the ship apart just before another laser blast knocks her off the cliff.
00:17:49
Speaker
Havoc is hit with some weird bolo that negates his power and wraps itself around him like mummy bandages. And the remaining white Prince of Egypt dudes drag him into their remaining ship as he pleads desperately for them to help Lorna, who is likely drowning.
00:18:06
Speaker
But As they fly away, we see Lorna's hand gripping a rock from beneath the freezing cold Scottish waters. Cut to the campus of Empire State University where a sleepy Peter Parker is working in his chemistry lab when he spies some more Egyptian-themed white men stealing some kind of ankh out of Professor Craig's office.
00:18:30
Speaker
You know, Professor Craig. My buddy Craig. deciding it seems like a fun crime to stop. He webs up the door, but when they don't come out, he runs to the window to see them fleeing in a Logan's Run-ass hovercraft and bursts through the door only to get caught in his own web. ah Can we take a moment to address all of this?
00:18:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Hang on. Spider-Man is a man driven by yeah Great responsibility, right? Famously, if he sees something bad happening, he says, if I don't stop this, I'm responsible for whatever happens.
00:19:09
Speaker
He doesn't need additional motivation to chase a bunch of super villain henchmen that are breaking into a scientific lab and stealing something.
00:19:21
Speaker
Yet. Yet. Here. He's like, I'm tired. I'm tired, man. i I haven't been fighting crime lately. I'm so tired. He's bored.
00:19:34
Speaker
like He's like, well, this sounds like an interesting crime to stop. I guess I can do this. ah Look, these guys are dressed funny. I can probably take them. It's like when a celebrity gets so big, they don't need the money and they only like take jobs because the movie films in Hawaii.
00:19:51
Speaker
or what yeah like These guys must be going back to the museum. love the museum. You know what it implies, Pat? It implies that Spider-Man sometimes ignores crimes that seem boring.
00:20:07
Speaker
ah yeah. Well, you don't see him busting up white-collar crime, do you? and That's true. I mean, this is part of my theory why people like Spider-Man and Batman are a part of enforcing hegemony and they're actually bad.
00:20:24
Speaker
But... I'd love to hear that one.
00:20:29
Speaker
Oh, I'd love to hear that one. does that is that Is my response clear? Buddy flicks a tracer onto their ship as they fly away. That's the whole point. Good old Spidey tracer.
00:20:40
Speaker
Meanwhile, a ragged looking Lorna Dane, guess she survived, calls the X-Men, but receives no answer. Why, Pat?
00:20:50
Speaker
I don't know, Matt. We're not following the X-Men. Instead, she calls the bubbly, the bubbly bouncing blue beast at the Avengers mansion who instantly Quinjets off to the X-Mansion.
00:21:02
Speaker
Thor seems concerned. Hey, wonder what happens to Beast in the X-Mansion? i I don't know. To clarify, the X-Men are trapped under Mesmero's mind powers. They have been for weeks performing as a circus act.
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, right. And if you want to hear about that, you can check out our previous episode. That's right. Back to Spidey, who is chasing down his spider tracer when he catches a glimpse of the two Egyptian stereotypes driving an ambulance through New York City.
00:21:35
Speaker
He follows them into the Egyptian embassy, where he sees a man wrapped up in tape with a weird hat, determines it must be this guy, havoc he's heard about and swings into action he unties havoc who energy blasts a dude point blank and the two team up against the rest until they're interrupted by a particularly powerful blast a blast that came from the living pharaoh
00:22:03
Speaker
there he is there is got i deflated a little bit as was trying to okay The living Pharaoh blasts Spider-Man through a window where he lands unconscious in front of a concerned woman who we never... That never comes up again. Right? We never see her again. We don't know why she's so concerned. We get the sense that she brings him back to health or something, but it's like never...
00:22:31
Speaker
never brought up um this is a a running joke in the marvel team-ups that we read there's just uh an old lady who is concerned about or by spider-man panels and then never reappears i could have sworn this person was gonna because she's like this one's an attractive young lady so i could have sworn she was gonna be like somehow involved in the plot, but not at all. he just wanted to draw a pretty young lady.
00:22:57
Speaker
So while Spider-Man's getting thrown through a window, Havoc trades blasts with our buddy, Professor Abdaal. This leads to a stalemate until a headdress dude sneaks up behind Alex and throws an onk necklace around his neck.
00:23:10
Speaker
His one weakness. According to Abdaal, this quote turns Havoc's power against him. Does that make sense to you, Pat? As much sense as the rest of it does.
00:23:24
Speaker
ah But it so somehow that knocks him out. They take Havok to the basements below the consulate and put him into an updated version of the tube from way back in X-Men 56.
00:23:35
Speaker
How did they get this all done in the basement of the Egyptian embassy? In case you missed that episode of our podcast or you forget. Okay.
00:23:47
Speaker
The living Pharaoh and Havok somehow draw power from the same energy source. And when Havok is alive, the Pharaoh's powers are diminished. If Havok's powers are negated, the living Pharaoh turns into a godlike being called the living monolith.
00:24:04
Speaker
A giant. So this tube but that Havok is in will not just block Havok's power like the last one did. but siphon it off and funnel it into the Pharaoh. This is very important.
00:24:18
Speaker
This will make him super powerful.
00:24:22
Speaker
However, when they go to close the lid, they find they can't because it's being held fast by a spider web. ah Spider-Man leaps from the shadows to beat these guys' asses. Yes.
00:24:35
Speaker
He's just about to free Havoc when Abdaal shows up back in his stupid living monolith costume. He's wearing the mono living monolith costume, but he's normal sized. Yeah, he is fully off his meds.
00:24:46
Speaker
yeah Spidey bounces around, avoiding Abdaal's blast, and punches him so goddamn hard that he goes flying across the room, accidentally landing on the lid to Havoc's chamber.
00:25:00
Speaker
Ah, Spider-Man. Spider-Man realizes he fucked up when he finds himself being gripped in the palm of the giant being known as the Living Monolith.
00:25:12
Speaker
I did manage to gin up some energy for that that one, but boy, was it difficult.
00:25:22
Speaker
This is
00:25:25
Speaker
Pass. Bad. Not good. Not good. I think the way I just described it made it sound like it was a kind of an exciting comic book.
00:25:35
Speaker
But it's... And credit to you for that, Matt. No. i' see I'm saying when you just hear each event, it sounds like it could be an exciting comic book. But man, it was really not... Yeah.
00:25:49
Speaker
There's just... so Chris Claremont, who I think is very good at writing characters in different voices, just doesn't quite have Spider-Man.
00:26:02
Speaker
And this is, I think, a very common problem with Spider-Man writers is they want to be extremely quippy, but they're just not quippy people. yeah And that's a huge problem in this issue is Spider-Man is just...
00:26:17
Speaker
calling the living Pharaoh tin head over and over again. And like, that's the extent of how clever he can be here. And again, he's just like, it's like a Bobby Drake insult.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yes. And he's got some weird motivations. He's kind of bumbling. ah Yeah, and not that Spider-Man can't be bumbling. It's classic Spidey to have him accidentally set off the process that would ah end the world. but Yes, but it's not Spider-Man to web up a door on his side of the door, on the side of the door that he's on, so he can see the webs and then say, I'm going to get those guys and into...
00:26:57
Speaker
want to The webs that he just made. get stuck in those webs. Spider-Man can climb on his own webs. That's his whole thing. Absolutely ridiculous. The one, one of the insults he calls, and this is a, there's some Chris Claremontisms in this issue. Some Claremontisms for us to watch are these two, and then the one that doesn't occur in this issue, but watch out for Claremont saying to coin a phrase wrong.
00:27:28
Speaker
Which might might be doing as a joke, but it's hard to tell. We'll we'll we'll see it. ah Spider-Man calls the Pharaoh guys bunkies.
00:27:40
Speaker
He does. That's an odd one. All right, bunkies. Yes, which apparently is just like a very rare slang term that means like kind of ineffectual or weak person.
00:27:55
Speaker
it More often, like I looked it up in the like the the slang dictionary, there's a website that traces slang throughout history. And I looked it up and basically every appearance in literature is about bunkmates.
00:28:09
Speaker
And there's like three in a hundred years where it was an insult meaning we're weak or ineffectual person. But yeah. Huh. He does.
00:28:20
Speaker
He has one good one when he first sees the men in the Egyptian costumes. yeah He says they look like they are from Ten Commandments meets Star Wars. All right.
00:28:31
Speaker
I almost when was writing when I was writing the recap, I almost wrote Ten Commandments as looking. But then he said it. but So another Claremontism is when somebody says in a word.
00:28:47
Speaker
Like, they'll be like, I'm and i'm going to show you i'm gonna show you what's what in a word. Punch! I don't know. That's a bad one. But you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
00:28:59
Speaker
He says hell he'll sum something up by saying in a word. And then after just saying like 30 words.
Artistic Praise and Upcoming Storylines
00:29:07
Speaker
Yeah, his characters will do that, right? that's a It happens across characters. Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:13
Speaker
There's some other stuff, like another thing, there's some good art and some terrible art in here. Oh, yeah. There's one great panel, the one where Spider-Man is crashing backwards through the window after the living Pharaoh hits him with ah with a blast, is amazing. It's a beautiful, beautiful panel.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Mid-action, things everywhere. The physicality is great. It's a great-looking Spider-Man. Then... not that long afterwards, Spider-Man does a double kick upside down. He's like, oh yes he he flips upside down and he kicks two dudes at once.
00:29:53
Speaker
So he just kind of looks like he's He just kind of looks like he's showing us his ass. He looks like he's setting up to do one of those upside down, ah <unk>s the way that people who can't twerk, twerk, where they go upside down and go up on the wall.
00:30:10
Speaker
he's You know when Mario, in certain Mario games, can, like, butt attack? He can pound his butt down on the ground really hard. Imagine that upside down.
00:30:21
Speaker
LAUGHTER
00:30:25
Speaker
not a flattering picture of Spider-Man. Yeah. There is i one more place where I think Burton nails it is the concentric power circles coming out of Havoc when he oh yeah when he dons his costume and starts shooting at the bunkies.
00:30:45
Speaker
he is it's draw it's a really fun take on the neil adams concept of just like the concentric circles shooting outwards he draws this very cool sort of like cylinder uh shooting out as a ray of energy it's it's really original and beautiful it's very john burn i like that this is becoming the standard way of drawing havoc and I guess this implies on some level that Havoc is always wearing his costume and the activation of his powers will make it visible.
00:31:23
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's like the, they all so right now they're all kind of leaning on the unstable molecule costumes that they have to, to do a lot of plot filling for him.
00:31:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, Pat. Correct. A lot of continuity errors. Here's what I would like from you. If you would, would you read me Marvel team ups number 70?
00:31:47
Speaker
You were supposed to read this before we got here, Matt. I'll recap it for you if you like. I know I, uh, I had to, I had to take a big, really long pee.
00:31:58
Speaker
Like I peed for so long. I missed this one. No, that's okay. You probably had a better time. Marvel team up number 70, whom gods destroy. Yeah. Chris Claremont, author, John Byrne Penciler, Tony deen zun dezun know yeah Dizuniga, inker, Annette Kaye, letterer, Phil Raich, colorist, and Jim Shooter, editor.
00:32:23
Speaker
I think, again, we're catching the Archie Goodwin to Jim Shooter transition episodes in a row. Release date, March 28th, 1978. released date march twenty eighth nineteen seventy eight Cover date, June Okay.
00:32:35
Speaker
The living monolith is, for some reason, walking around and trashing the city like Godzilla, with Spider-Man clenched in his fist like Fay Wray and King Kong. Why is he doing this?
00:32:48
Speaker
When Spider-Man annoys him too much, he flings him down into the city where he is caught by the mighty Thor. Oh, cool. Turns out this is a Spider-Man Thor team up. Which we didn't tell you. It was on the cover.
00:33:00
Speaker
We knew that. Spidey quickly fills him in on the plot of the last issue and Thor goes rocketing off to slam the monolith in the face with his hammer. This does nothing and monolith backhands him across the city.
00:33:12
Speaker
It's interesting that it does nothing. Don't you think? It's almost like if if Thor used all his power and slammed this guy in the face with his hammer, if he like say did it again, it wouldn't, it would still do nothing, right?
00:33:27
Speaker
Right. Yeah, yeah. Wild that he can withstand hits from ham from the hammer of Thor. And we should probably just, like, remember that. He he can withstand hits from the power of Thor.
00:33:40
Speaker
Spider-Man realizes the obvious, that if Havoc's power is being siphoned from the chamber, why not just free Havoc from the chamber? Yeah. Thor throws his hammer at it, but Monolith somehow overhears them and boasts that the casing is booby-trapped. He uses those words.
00:33:56
Speaker
And if they smash it, Havoc will die and Monolith will still be ultra-powerful, which... uh negates the entire reason for imprisoning havoc in the first place yeah wait what the hell okay so why not just kill havoc i would if yeah if he told me that i would assume that uh he was lying yeah exactly it's because it'd be like then kill havoc what are you doing why did you have him in this chamber what is the point of all of this why are we doing any of this it doesn't matter matt it's too late thor has already thrown his hammer
00:34:30
Speaker
Spider-Man grabs it with his webs, diverting it just enough to miss havoc, but taking Spidey on a ride through the city and into Thor's arms. Why did we watch all that happen?
00:34:42
Speaker
Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know. Frustrated, understandably, Thor throws his hammer at Monolith's butt and Monolith is launched into New York Harbor.
00:34:53
Speaker
Wait, what? His face is strong enough to take a ah hit from Thor's hammer. His ass, however. Yeah. He's strong enough to take a hit from Thor's hammer when Thor is using all of his muscles to swing it.
00:35:11
Speaker
But when Thor throws it through the air, it launches him across the city. It's okay. Look, we didn't address it last time.
00:35:22
Speaker
i don't I still don't know who the fuck this guy is.
00:35:26
Speaker
I'm just excited to finally get some backstory. Yeah, and surely we'll get there. i Before we do, the living monolith knocked into the harbor almost crushes a boat, so Thor rushes to save it by creating a hurricane.
00:35:40
Speaker
yeah Good plan! Good plan, mighty Thor! He and the monolith then yell at each other, comparing the powers of gods versus cosmic.
00:35:52
Speaker
ah right The eternal argument. That's, ah You know, they say Rousseau versus Hobbes, you know, kant versus Hume, gods versus cosmic. God versus space.
00:36:10
Speaker
i ah Meanwhile, Spider-Man has an idea to go rescue Havoc, a brand new idea he's never had before.
00:36:23
Speaker
He finds the chamber, beats up some bunkies, finds the booby trap, and using his spider sense, disarms it. I do love this Spider-Man disarming a bomb by going to disconnect a wire, and right before he does it, his spider sense tells him, no, we'll all blow up if you pull that wire until he gets the wire that doesn't trip that.
00:36:45
Speaker
i It does imply that Spider-Man just goes around doing the most dangerous things he can just to tell... He pops the lid, pulls off the amulet, and Havoc bursts out in a spectacle of circles.
00:37:00
Speaker
As the monolith's power fades, Thor hits him with a hammer and he disappears. The three heroes reconvene, and Havoc remembers the fate of Lorna Dane, so Thor jets off with Alex Summers in his arms.
00:37:15
Speaker
The End.
00:37:18
Speaker
Okay, sorry, can you go back? What part, when did they explain the or... Who the fuck is this guy?
00:37:28
Speaker
Who is Who is So, this has to be... Why is he What he Why bring him back if you're not going to explain what the fuck he's doing?
00:37:40
Speaker
it seems like this was... The same story, but condensed into two issues. ah yeah it's They said, what if this happened with Spider-Man instead of the X-Men? And the answer is, it would be 33% shorter.
00:38:00
Speaker
it's It must be. no I was going to say it must be the good artists like to draw this guy, but this guy didn't exist before Neil Adams. Right, and also he sucks.
00:38:12
Speaker
He sucks! He sucks. looks awful. he He looks bad. We don't really know what his powers are. We don't know why he exists. We don't know what his motivation is. We don't know where he came from. We don't know his first name! He's... He... Okay.
00:38:32
Speaker
What I'm pretty sure is canon at this point, at least. I know that this was our theory, but I think that this almost confirms that he's not really a pharaoh.
00:38:44
Speaker
He is just a mentally ill man. Yeah. Who makes terrible plans. This, okay. I want to talk about, real quick, when you were when you were talking about, we mentioned using Spider-Man using his spider s sense to disarm the trap.
00:39:03
Speaker
And I immediately leapt to mind how good of a forager Spider-Man would be. Because he just walks to the forest, he picks something up, he puts it near his mouth, the spider scents goes off, and he's like, o not this one. he grabs something else, does the same thing, it doesn't go off, he's like, I can eat that.
00:39:22
Speaker
is This one is either... Poisonous or explosive?
00:39:28
Speaker
and This one is not poisonous. I do not know anything else about it.
00:39:38
Speaker
There's a couple absurd, absurd things in here. First of all, it's so funny when Claremont gives everybody names. So like in the last issue, he gave all the bunkies names.
00:39:51
Speaker
So it's like Mustafa, Jamil, Rashid, Ahmed, Abdullah, Kasim. Right. These are their code names, I'm pretty sure, because they are all very clearly Italian-American men.
00:40:02
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And in this in this scene, as a man is stomping around, destroying people, everybody's shouting each other's names as they're getting out of the way. Yeah.
00:40:14
Speaker
So like ah he's about to step on a car and Thor stops him. And <unk> like, whew, good thing. Harley and Sissy are safe.
00:40:26
Speaker
I'm so glad that Thor saved Harley and c Sissy of New York City, New York.
00:40:37
Speaker
There's a civilian interaction that I think is this goes back to just not really being able to write Spider-Man. This elderly couple is interrupted by Spider-Man. He was he lands. i I think they're on the Empire State Building and he needs to use their binoculars to that they paid for.
00:40:59
Speaker
For no reason. He just wants to look at Thor. Like he knows exactly where Thor is and what Thor is doing, but he just wants to look at him. It's a silly situation, but in a classic Spider-Man book, this would be ah rife with comedy potential. Instead, this couple just gets annoyed.
00:41:16
Speaker
ah He swoops off and then we find out that the lady wants to go see the Rockettes. There's no there's no punchlines. Remember when Dave Cockrum said that Chris Claremont has no sense of humor?
00:41:29
Speaker
i well I don't know what he was talking about. This shit's hilarious. One last thing. It really pissed me off. Okay. He's pissed off, folks. All right. Back up. He's he's mad. He's getting fumed.
00:41:42
Speaker
Thor suggests that this guy is more powerful than Thanos? He's more powerful than Thanos, Pat. Come on, man. This is a living monolith. Everyone laughs at this man.
00:41:57
Speaker
Turns out he's more powerful than Thanos. Except for it's if Thanos had a thing where a te where if somebody let a teenager out of a cage, he would lose all of his power.
00:42:14
Speaker
ah Right. Right. Sorry, I guess he's not a team. I guess he's in his twenty s A grad student. If somebody let a grad student out of a cage, Thanos loses all his power. There's a... and because Maybe he's as powerful as Thanos in his face, but not i in his butt.
00:42:37
Speaker
there's There's a moment where Spider-Man goes back to the Egyptian consulate and sees the bunkies loading Havoc's chamber into a car.
00:42:49
Speaker
And he notes, he's like, this guy's thought of everything. The car's got diplomatic plates. Even if the cops wanted to stop it, they couldn't. Right.
00:43:01
Speaker
I'm pretty fucking sure that the cops are allowed to ignore diplomatic immunity if... Okay. Number one, let's let's start small.
00:43:12
Speaker
If they watch the diplomats kidnap a man. An American citizen. Yeah. Number two, if they know the diplomats are murdering people from the car.
00:43:26
Speaker
Number three, if... If it means stomping a giant skyscraper sized monster stomping on the city, I'm pretty sure they're not going get in trouble for ignoring diplomatic license plates.
00:43:42
Speaker
It's out of their, yeah I mean, technically it's out of their jurisdiction. I'm no lawyer. I'm pretty sure they have to call the military. It's like if Thanos drives over state lines, are the New Jersey police like, dang it, dang it.
00:43:57
Speaker
dan it
00:44:00
Speaker
Nope, Sarge. Nothing we can do about it.
00:44:05
Speaker
Man, this sucked. It's also just such a terrible plan. Like, ah I'm going to take over the world with my superpowers as long as nobody goes near that grad student in a glass chamber.
00:44:21
Speaker
I left four men guarding him. Fucking god damn it. ah yeah Okay, that's the end of this story.
00:44:32
Speaker
Okay, so we know what happened to Havok and Polaris yeah right after, they're recovering from their stint with Eric the Red.
00:44:46
Speaker
We don't know what happens to the living Pharaoh, so he is unfortunately missing. He's in the wind. Yeah, yeah, we he may come back. It would be good if we just we so saw him impaled but on a spear and then Thor chopped his head off like an endgame.
00:45:05
Speaker
i'd Honestly, i would like to see him get the help he needs. Okay. All right. That's fair. If I can high road me, that's fine. um
00:45:17
Speaker
Okay, so Havoc is concerned about Polaris. We know she's fine. He thinks she's dead. He thinks she's dead in the water surrounding the Scottish Hebrides, but she's fine.
00:45:29
Speaker
That's easily cleared up. So what happens to Havoc and Polaris next? they They're just hanging out on Mirror Island until the X-Men show up in ah the next episode of Mutant Menace or what?
00:45:41
Speaker
Right. Yeah, there's there's a few issues of X-Men where they're just not present. Yeah, so, and I think that'll happen a lot. I think we'll see Havoc and Polaris missing a lot, but it so I imagine they've gotten up to nothing interesting, right?
00:45:55
Speaker
Yeah, well, you tell me, Matt, where do we find them next? Well, we find them in Defenders number 62, Membership Madness! susan This is bit All right. Membership Madness.
00:46:12
Speaker
David Kraft. who I've honestly never heard of does the dialogue here. David Kraft, Matt. Okay. Let me tell you a little bit about David Kraft.
00:46:24
Speaker
did a little research here. you had also never heard of him. This is, yes, I had also never heard of him, but I thought it would be very funny to look into somebody that neither of us had ever heard of. And I learned some interesting things. Number one, he is a fan first. This guy ah ran a few different fan publications, including 1975, took over editing which was um the marvel owned fan magazine originally started by jim steranko helmed it up to like issue 10 12 claremont took over ah for issue and because in had some other
00:47:09
Speaker
more important project what dick there's what's more important than food And then so Kraft took over for him. He was a bullpen guy at the time. He had written a few stories for the Defenders before.
00:47:24
Speaker
He wrote every issue except for the first issue of Savage She-Hulk. a If you know, steve said Savage She-Hulk number one was written by Stan Lee so that he could get the creator credit. And...
00:47:39
Speaker
then immediately handed off to Kraft who wrote the entire run. It's like it's a pretty good run. i I have read it and just didn't realize that he was the writer. Sure. He was tapped to write. So he was a big music guy There was a yeah Marvel magazine that was putting out a lot of music team ups at the time. They had a Kiss issue that went really well.
00:48:05
Speaker
Is it the Kiss issue with blood in it? Or is that a later thing? No, I think that's a later thing. this is This is the first appearance of Kiss in Marvel Comics. there is Oh, interesting. They have a canonical story.
00:48:18
Speaker
But so anyway, he was tapped to write Marvel's comic adaptation of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club club Band, The Movie. Whoa, In 1975, jukebox rock opera. and nineteen seventy five jukebox rock opera featuring only Beatles music featuring Peter Frampton and the Bee Gees.
00:48:35
Speaker
It is sort of like a Blues Brothers style, grabbing as many famous musicians as we can and stuffing them in to sing Beatles songs sort of movie. Yeah, sure. The movie, first of all, came out and was critically panned. kind of i The comic was missing deadlines left and right, so they pulled it Production was in flux the whole time. So the the movie itself was sort of being filmed on the fly.
00:49:03
Speaker
so who So the artists who were George Perez and Jim Mooney were told that they had to draw a specific list of famous musicians that would appear in the film. But because the film was sort of being produced on the fly, they didn't actually have the guarantees for all these stars and half of them didn't end up in the movie.
00:49:24
Speaker
And also, i Marvel didn't have the rights to half the stars that they listed anyway, so they wouldn't have been able to actually draw their likenesses in the comic. It is a wild story. I know George Perez is still very bitter about it. You can look at some his quotes.
00:49:41
Speaker
But David Kraft went on to write a bunch of children's books featuring Marvel characters. Oh, okay. the eighty s And he also went on to found Comics Interview, which ran for 150 issues, won an Eisner for its in-depth creator interviews. It was sort of for a long time the standard for, i think before the age of podcasts, the standard for learning about creators and their thoughts on their comics.
00:50:08
Speaker
That's so interesting. This guy seems like he's, this guy rules. Yeah, he's an important person in Marvel history for sure. Wow. I mean, sounds like important person in comic book history, right?
00:50:22
Speaker
All right. Well, so yeah, he's he's the writer here. Who else? ah The issue was drawn by Sal Buscema and Jim Mooney. Sal Buscema? Yeah. Let me tell you about Sal Buscema.
00:50:34
Speaker
ah Sal Buscema ran a music magazine from 1964 Jay Costanza is a letterer. B. Sharon did the colors. And Bob Hall was the editor with Jim Shooter as editor in chief.
00:50:50
Speaker
Also, it says the word awk underneath for some reason. um No idea what that means. Me neither. Andrew WK, maybe? Oh.
00:51:01
Speaker
Release date May 16th, 1978. Cover date August 1978. The Defenders, Hulk, Hellcat, Valkyrie, and Nighthawk, are playing Frisbee in a legitimately funny scene when a bearded sunglass man named Dollar Bill...
00:51:21
Speaker
It's just also a funny name. This already rules. Rushes out to tell them and about his Defenders documentary that's playing on TV. If you don't know already that this is Dollar Bill, the only time his name is said is when he pops out and refers to himself in the third person. Yeah. So I assumed this wasn't Dollar Bill and I kept trying to figure out what his name is. And let me read you all of the things they call him.
00:51:47
Speaker
ah yeah the defenders. They call cutie, fella, buddy, cinema freak, creep, and then buddy again before they use the the name Dollar Bill again.
00:52:01
Speaker
yeah I knew there was a character named Dollar Bill. ah So I but so I knew who he was. It was. But that is very, very funny. Why would you assume that was his name?
00:52:16
Speaker
Yeah. OK, this the documentary airing on TV sparks an argument with Nighthawk because the defenders are supposed to be a secret. What? But the others calm him down and they all head inside.
00:52:31
Speaker
The documentary is like a promotional film showing some of the Defenders' greatest feats while aggrandizing Dollar Bill himself as their mastermind press agent. It ends with a shot of their address and a declaration that the Defenders are a non-team, meaning that anyone can just show up and declare themselves member.
00:52:56
Speaker
Nighthawk is enraged. Hellcat is just excited to have been on TV. Hulk is confused by the whole thing as much as he was confused by Frisbee.
00:53:08
Speaker
And Valkyrie is trying her best to calm everyone down. Important to note, this is the Defenders lineup right now. Yes. At this moment, the Defenders are ah Hellcat, Hulk, Valkyrie, and Nighthawk leading them.
00:53:27
Speaker
What? Strange team. What even holds them together? all right. Meanwhile, a weird possibly robot man in gold suit of flying silver throne flies over what looks like a landfill and gets scared by something off panel. I don't care.
00:53:42
Speaker
Back at Nighthawk's mansion, the doorbell rings wildly and over a dozen heroes stand on the lawn waiting to join the team. All right. Hercules, Miss Marvel, Black Goliath, who...
00:53:58
Speaker
eventually just becomes goliath he's they call him black goliath because he's black like that is yeah yeah that's uh i and granted it's actually this makes it worse there was another hero named goliath like I'm Goliath.
00:54:17
Speaker
You can be Black Goliath. Exactly. He's like, can i be can I be Mega Goliath? Can I be Mr. Goliath? No! I'll take Goliath 2. Okay,
00:54:30
Speaker
ah ok so Black Goliath, Jack of Hearts, Captain Marvel, Iron Fist, Nova, Marvel Man, who I didn't even know existed, Son of Satan, Stingray, and for our purposes, Polaris, who does not speak Once.
00:54:46
Speaker
Not at all. They stare expectantly at Nighthawk, who is furious and throws Dollar Bill out of the front door. Falcon, sitting on the roof with the prowler, calls Nighthawk out for his behavior.
00:55:01
Speaker
So Nighthawk pulls him off the roof, and then they take off as Nighthawk chases Falcon through the sky. Immediate fight. Yeah. Hulk, who has to be dissuaded from beating everyone up, walks off with Valkyrie to make everyone coffee. While Hellcat goes out to flirt with Torpedo, Paladin with two L's, and Captain Ultra.
00:55:26
Speaker
Have you ever read a Captain Ultra, a Paladin, or a Torpedo comic, Pat? No, I've heard of Torpedo. I legitimately had not heard of Paladin or Captain Ultra. I'd heard of Paladin. I'd never heard of Captain Ultra.
Humorous Chaos with The Defenders
00:55:41
Speaker
Nova, meanwhile, notices some horses and so persuades Marvel Man to catch and ride them. and Those aren't your horses, Yeah, what are you doing?
00:55:52
Speaker
They're fenced in. Somebody owns them. And Nova's just like, let's go play cowboys together. It's like almost literally what he says. White Tiger not wanting to be left behind follows.
00:56:03
Speaker
The other new defenders try to nominate a leader. Our boy Havoc. buts He's got a line here. Now we know where Havoc and Polaris are. They went to join the Defenders?
00:56:14
Speaker
what we'll get We'll get to it. ah He agrees with Jack of Hearts' nomination of Captain Marvel. But Captain Marvel defers to Hercules, who gets a slew of votes, including the not yet mentioned Tagak.
00:56:27
Speaker
Tagak. I think we've now mentioned everyone. I do you think that's everyone. Tagok is quite a pull. Yes, I think he was in six comics ever.
00:56:41
Speaker
Yes, he he ah is originally a Daredevil character, which is why I know who he is. I think he was in two Daredevil issues and then these four issues of The Defenders, and that's it.
00:56:52
Speaker
Polaris, who is on panel while everybody speaks of their votes, does not speak still. Still doesn't speak. Nope. Meanwhile, the horse gang, now with Prowler, chase some poor horses around, eventually mounting them while Nighthawk flies by chasing Falcon and trying to beat him up.
00:57:09
Speaker
This spooks the horses, which makes the horse gang mad, so they chase the flying gang. Valkyrie is serving coffee to Son of Satan, Miss Marvel Hercules, Captain Marvel, Stingray, whose mouth is fully covered, Pat.
00:57:23
Speaker
Yeah. and Paladin, but when they take a sip, including Stingray, whose mouth is still covered, they all recoil in disgust and dump it on the ground.
00:57:34
Speaker
Devastating. Elsewhere, Torpedo pulls some heroes aside, and when Havoc asks him why, the other heroes all have to individually say their own names and affirm that they agree with the question.
00:57:47
Speaker
He says, hey, why'd you pull us aside? And he's like, Tagak also wonders why you pulled him aside. iron Me, Iron Fist, also seconds that question. And Black Goliath wants to know the answer to this, too.
00:57:59
Speaker
It's so weird. Torpedo, it seems, thinks that Hulk is a menace. and wants to create a plan to capture him. Torpedo, he's your new teammate. What are you doing,
00:58:13
Speaker
Hellcat is trying to bone both Captain Ultra and Jack of Hearts. Paladin ah walked away because he was married. um But they're both overcome with jealousy. This is actually an interesting scene until the next moment, because they're like, hey, I want to bone you, dude.
00:58:34
Speaker
Hellcat and the other one's like I would have bone you Hellcat you have to choose and she's like well why do I have to choose and they're like hey you can't play this game on us and then it's it's very anti-feminist they're uh Captain Ultra and Jack of Hearts they behavior here they are yeah but the idea of Hellcat just being like hey I could fuck both of you if you want I'm down.
00:59:00
Speaker
Sick. Awesome. It's very rad. It's so cool. They're both overcome with jealousy and Captain Ultra shoves her to the ground. And the two prepare to fight each other when the big chase, starting with Falcon and ending with horses, barrels through them.
00:59:19
Speaker
Meanwhile, Hulk six sits down to contemplate the contradictions in his head. On one hand, he wants to smash. On the other hand, Valkyrie says no.
00:59:33
Speaker
It's a real quandary, and he decides he's just gonna leave. When Iron Fist, Stringray, Black Goliath, Havok, Tagak, and Polaris, who still doesn't speak!
00:59:45
Speaker
She's the only one who didn't say Polaris would also like to know why. They leap out of the bushes, led by Torpedo. Hulk drops his coffee, and the issue is to be continued!
01:00:01
Speaker
this is great great i yeah it loved to this not a moment of important action this is just all ego just pure ego conflict superheroes chasing each other around in circles like a scooby-doo Yeah, it's it and it starts with a cover to even the cover has just like the it's got dollar bill ah telling you that this is going to be a wild issue. And then it's just got it's blank white space with a bunch of characters just like awkwardly floating around.
01:00:37
Speaker
It's so it's so funny. Aren't there characters on the cover that don't make it aren't even in the issue? Let me pull it back up. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. On the cover, Iron Man, Spider Woman, Human Torch, Luke Cage, and Angel are all there.
01:00:53
Speaker
None of those guys are in the issue. No. And there it it opens with them playing frisbee. It's so... we It's so low stakes, and I miss this so much. like i yeah And don't get me wrong, I am loving the Claremont X-Men, but when we get into their like personal drama and character moments, it's bleak. It's sad. that They have all got reason to...
01:01:20
Speaker
to be very, uh, they've all got trauma that they're, they're working through. Whereas the defenders are just, they're having trouble throwing frisbees to each other because they've all got different power sets. This is great.
01:01:36
Speaker
Even. ah Okay. So moving on to the dollar bill documentary, it's ah like, he's bad at filming, So there's a shot of the Hulk upside down.
01:01:48
Speaker
There's a far too close close up of Valkyrie. um they they don't mention it in the dialogue. It's just like there's a scene where one of the villains escapes and Dollar Bill catches it on film.
01:02:04
Speaker
the Defenders are like, oh my God, that's where he went. I didn't even... didn't...
01:02:12
Speaker
It's so funny. He's, he really, as this is Sal Bussemer or Jim Mooney that's doing this, but the, the, he's drawing bad cinematography. that's all it is. It's so good.
01:02:25
Speaker
Everybody's slightly off the center of the frame. There's like, oh man, it's so, it's so funny. And then like, just okay when nighthawk answers the door hercules is standing there and he's speaking for everybody but marvel man goes hello i'm marvel man and nova says and i'm nova
01:02:57
Speaker
and when when Sam Wilson, the Falcon, is sitting on the roof and is like, hey man, maybe you should calm down and you're yelling at all these people and I don't think you've ever met us before. He turns around and he goes, and just who are you, Mr. Budinsky? And then Prowler calls him a sore
01:03:18
Speaker
There's a wonderful detail where their HQ is actually in Long Island. Like it's just further cementing. these are the worst Avengers. Yeah. Everything they're doing is so petty and it's, it's clearly intentional, right? There's, it's written in the style of a sixties or seventies comic book where they're all delivering corny dialogue to each other. But in the context, it's, it's actually really effectively funny.
01:03:48
Speaker
Why did you call somebody Mr. Budinsky? They, yeah in the first place, but also in this case, This guy is just being nice to you. He's giving you some sage advice.
01:04:01
Speaker
It's also funny that just to watch like the Hulk pass out coffee. And there's like there's like a panel. a panel where, well, Paladin asks for cream and sugar. And Hulk is like, drink it black.
01:04:17
Speaker
Yeah. And in that same panel, there's just like so it's so funny to watch Havoc just casually sipping coffee but next Captain Marvel. And I have to admit something in this panel. It looks like Stingray is his mask is lifted up a little bit.
01:04:36
Speaker
Oh, my fault is the Spider-Man kiss thing to drink coffee. No, it doesn't look like it. It just kind of looks like suddenly. The white part of his mask is just not there.
01:04:50
Speaker
ah don't know. Yeah. I don't know much about Stingray. Maybe he can just retract that piece of his mask when he needs to. Man, it's it's so it's so funny.
01:05:01
Speaker
It's so good. It gave me ah ah some hope for the run that we're getting into, and I am excited. Wait, two other quotes.
01:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Number one, when Nova falls off his horse, he says, and to think this is happening to me, Richard Ryder. Yeah.
01:05:26
Speaker
So good. And another person. So I don't know if you've ever seen Captain Ultra's costume. It's Pat, describe Captain an Ultra's costume to me.
01:05:37
Speaker
Bold.
01:05:43
Speaker
uh somebody calls him captain jack of hearts calls him captain colorblind which is very funny and that's jack of hearts anybody has attack your costume in this issue than jack of hearts uh i i you know i think marvel man and satan i kind of like son of satan sky no actually i don't I don't tag act suck. Man, they all suck. Torpedo sucks.
01:06:11
Speaker
These are bad characters. This is can we just go over the full list one more time? These are people who wanted to be defenders for. Yes. And let's say and let's and let's let's say as you say them, if you know who they are or if you've read a comic with them in it besides this one.
01:06:30
Speaker
Yeah. And if you, the listener, have, please let us know mutantmenacepod gmail.com. We got to know some context for these folks. So start listening. Number one, Ms. Marvel.
01:06:42
Speaker
Yes and yes. Easy. Yeah. Yeah. Know who that is. ah Number two, Son of Satan. Yes and no. I know of him. I never read him. I've already forgotten the rules, but i only tangentially know Son of Satan. Jack of Hearts.
01:06:55
Speaker
ah Yes and yeah yes. I read him in Johns' Avengers run. Oh, OK. I read him in the Avengers Disaster comic.
01:07:05
Speaker
Avengers Disassembled. Yeah, Disassembled, which is also part of that big event series that we were talking about at the beginning of the episode. And that is also written by Bendis. But he ah dies and then comes back in a terrifying way.
01:07:18
Speaker
That's all I know him for, though. ah Stingray. a Yes and no. OK. I feel like I've heard the name before, but that's that's about it. ah He flies at one point. I did not know he can fly.
01:07:30
Speaker
ah Black Goliath, eventually just Goliath. People often just call him Bill Foster, right? Right. I hear you hear heroes constantly talking about like, oh, we we should consult Bill Foster, the scientist on this, who is Black Goliath, right?
01:07:47
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I saw him die in Civil War. Yes. Yeah, he dies in Civil War and... Clone Thor flies through his chest. Yeah, it's fucked up.
01:07:58
Speaker
But I've never read like a Black Goliath comic. Yeah, I don't think there have been many, honestly. Yeah. ah Hercules. Yes and yes. Yeah. Everybody knows Hercules, half son of Zeus.
01:08:12
Speaker
And I think he was in a good in the early 2000s. He was in a comic that people liked that introduced Amadeus Cho. Right. OK. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it wasn't the introduction, but it was him and Amadeus Cho as buddies.
01:08:26
Speaker
I've only ever seen him in other people's comics, which I think is another. There's just not that many Hercules solo comics out there. i Iron Fist. Yes and yes. yeah Of course, we just read him last episode. Captain Marvel.
01:08:39
Speaker
i obviously knew who he was. Never read a comic with him in it. you I've never read a Captain Marvel comic. I have had. I have read comics where he shows up. Nova. Obviously knew who he was.
01:08:52
Speaker
Also, never. I don't think I've ever read a comic with Nova, especially not that Richard Rider Nova in it. Yeah, actually. Who's the ah the more recent Nova?
01:09:04
Speaker
The kid Nova? Yeah, the ty yeah, yeah. Kid Nova who is in the New Warriors. Yeah. I don't know why, but I've read him in a lot of comics. But yeah, I don't know if I've ever actually read Richard Rider. I just read him in the New Warriors in a Toad story from the 19 from 1991. Yeah.
01:09:20
Speaker
yeah i Marvel Man. no one knows about this. Yeah. i Falcon. Yeah. Yes. obviously It was like five episodes back that we read Falcon. The Prowler.
01:09:35
Speaker
i knew who the Prowler was. i don't think I've ever read a Prowler comic. I've seen them in movies. I have. it There's some there's some good Spider-Man comics ah featuring the Prowler is sort of like a borderline villain hero.
01:09:50
Speaker
ah Torpedo. ah Yes and no. I thought Torpedo was a villain. I thought he was like Spider-Man's rogues gallery. Maybe he becomes a villain. It's hard to say. Paladin.
01:10:03
Speaker
Two else. ah Yes and no. Paladin. ah how but you you don't You never heard of Paladin before, right? Osama Paladin. ah No.
01:10:14
Speaker
yeah a Captain Ultra. No, not at all. No fucking clue. I mean, I've seen him. The only time I've ever seen Captain Ultra was in like a Sporkle quiz. ah White Tiger.
01:10:31
Speaker
Yes. And I've read the second White Tiger and stuff. Never the original White Tiger. Yeah. Only read. He plays a key non superhero part in Bendis's Daredevil run.
01:10:44
Speaker
ah Oh, does he? Very good. But then I guess I have read them. I don't remember. Not just not like it's not like reading like Tiger Adventure.
01:10:55
Speaker
Well, that's the run that introduces the new white tiger, right? Yes, correct. Okay. I don't remember the old white tiger being in that. Havoc. You heard of this guy? na No, no, no.
01:11:07
Speaker
Who is he? about Polaris? ever not You know, a Polaris. And finally, even little. no and all Really? you know i Okay, I have read daredevil appearance, and I did not know that he was considered a hero beyond to that. ah didn't He came from another universe where he was like... Correct, he is a leopard man from another universe that, of course, was originally thought of as a villain, but turned out to be a good guy just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
01:11:45
Speaker
Why are Havok and Polaris here? They don't even like being heroes. They barely speak. Havok's whole character is, i don't like being a I don't want to be a hero.
01:11:56
Speaker
I just want to be in the desert and a grad student. And Polaris is just is she's just like, yeah, I didn't... i don't she's i don't think she's anti-being a hero, right?
01:12:08
Speaker
But she's kind of like...
01:12:12
Speaker
i'd I'd rather be with Havoc than yeah anything else. And here's i didn't I didn't know I was a mutant until I was well into my adulthood. So here's my thought, because they have a lot of heavy hitters here, too. People who, like, are former Avengers. I don't think they would necessarily want to be a defender, right?
01:12:32
Speaker
What current Avengers is? We'll find out. I think David Kraft was like, hey, I have a story idea What heroes are available? Like who's not tied up in another project right now? And Havoc and Polaris just escaped their situation.
01:12:52
Speaker
Yeah. So clearly they're free. They haven't gotten back to the X-Men yet. Right. I wonder if he was like, I want some X-Men here. And they were like, and ah sorry, dude, all the X-Men are taken.
01:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And then after some arguments, they were like fine, you can have Havoc and Polaris. Why he couldn't have Iceman, i have no idea. Like, think at this point, the champions are over because Hercules is here, right?
01:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So why couldn't they have Iceman and Angel? Why couldn't, why wouldn't they be here? That, they would make more sense. It would make more sense for Angel to be like, I'm going, Bobby, come with me. And Bobby be like, I'm studying, fine.
01:13:31
Speaker
Fine. If you want some egotistical heroes that would be motivated to be on a team, it's right there. Yeah.
01:13:43
Speaker
It's so strange. this It doesn't make any sense why Havoc and Polaris would be here, but they are. like and It doesn't matter. It's beautiful. It is now in continuity. For one minute, Havoc Polaris were like, I want to be on a superhero team.
01:13:58
Speaker
But not the X-Men. But not the X-Men. I don't want to call my friends in the X-Men and fight crime with them. All right. Well, I think that brings us up to Defenders number 63.
01:14:12
Speaker
Deadlier by the Dozen. ah David Kraft story, Sal Buscema and Jim Mooney artwork, Jake Estanza letters, R. Slifer colors, and Jim Shooter editor-in-chief.
01:14:23
Speaker
Released date July 4th, 1978. You know what's significant about that date, Matt? ah It's the 4th of July. ah Cover date, September 1978. The new defenders are attacking the Hulk.
01:14:36
Speaker
Goliath is punching while Torpedo and Havoc blast him. Iron Fist, who has for some reason abandoned the Hulk gang and joined the horse gang, is flung from his horse as Nighthawk continues to try to fight Falcon for telling him to calm down last issue.
01:14:49
Speaker
Hulk loses it and pounds the ground, sending everyone flying. Iron Man shows up to deliver a letter to Hellcat. And tell everyone that a bunch of villains have declared themselves defenders and are fucking up Manhattan. I think David Kraft got a note that's like, listen, if you just have them fight some villains, we'll let you use Iron Man.
01:15:10
Speaker
Hercules, who has been elected leader, I don't think we mentioned this, but it's very funny that in front of Nighthawk, the current leader, everybody is like, well, who would be the best leader on this team? Let's check with let's go with her Hercules.
01:15:25
Speaker
I'll say Nighthawk is right now flying around his mansion grounds chasing Falcon. so Trying to fight one of the most noble heroes in comics. yeah Yes!
01:15:35
Speaker
For sitting on his roof, number one, and for telling him that he's being a little mean, for two. I Hercules gets everyone under control by hitting them with a tree, tearing a tree out of the ground on this property and hitting everybody with it. Yeah.
01:15:52
Speaker
And then briefing them on the situation. yeah Everyone is on board to fight the villains, except for Hulk, who jumps away, fucks off. He's not he's not here anymore. He's just like, I don't want to.
01:16:03
Speaker
They divide the teams into three. Hercules takes Havoc, Hellcat, Goliath, White Tiger, Captain Ultra, and Iron Fist. Valkyrie takes Falcon, Torpedo, Stingray, Prowler, and Jack of Hearts.
01:16:15
Speaker
Nighthawk, apologizing for being a dick, takes Nova, Son of Satan, Tagak, Marvel Man, and Polaris. There's two of those teams i would really I would find really interesting to read. Yeah.
01:16:31
Speaker
Polaris finally speaks, asking why no one picked Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, or Paladin. I guess they just intuitively knew or something that those three have good have had enough.
01:16:43
Speaker
Captain Marvel just isn't into the vibes. Paladin only works for money. Did not know that. And Ms. Marvel just remembered that she's an Avenger. And then the three of them take off.
01:16:55
Speaker
She's just like, I'm in the Avengers, so i'm not sure why I'm here. this Why are you here? Why did you show up? For the fame, Matt. For the cheap fame.
01:17:07
Speaker
it just seems like I think they forgot. it's This happens a bunch in this series. There's just so many characters. They kind of forget who is where. And people will just appear or disappear or suddenly be like, yeah I don't know what I'm doing. Bye. Or like like earlier, like Nova was suddenly on a horse.
01:17:26
Speaker
like when Or not Nova. um ah Iron Fist. was just suddenly on a horse when before, like the last we saw him, he was leaping out of the bushes to attack the Hulk. Like... Yeah. youre <unk> They're clearly losing some people here.
01:17:41
Speaker
i but the including ah Valkyrie's team. They fly off and we just don't see them again for the rest of the issue. Hercules' team, the the entire team, jumps into Hellcat's cartoon-ass Roger Rabbit-ass looking two-seater car with Havoc literally hanging off the back. Yeah, yeah. They cannot fit the whole team. Like, legs up in the air, hands on the on the back of the seat, and flying.
01:18:11
Speaker
Bill Foster... stays full size well at first that seems normal because he's running alongside the car and we're like oh and it's like oh okay he's just gonna run but we'll we'll revisit that in a minute Nighthawk's team takes to the air, forgetting that Tagok can't fly, and Polaris thinks to herself that she wishes she had been on Valkyrie's team instead.
01:18:35
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense. They arrive in Greenwich Village carrying Tagok by his two arms, just in time to see a man whose car was stolen by a big, powerful villain calling themselves a defender.
01:18:48
Speaker
This so funny. This is you so funny. This is so good. Instead of having Polaris just float the car back, they chase it, slam into it, carry it back, only to find out that the thief was just the man's young son. says...
01:19:03
Speaker
says a big powerful guy calling himself a defender stole my car. He was lying. It was, he knew it was his son.
01:19:14
Speaker
You wanted to teach him a lesson. And the son just like, Oh dad, don't be mad at me. I was just playing a joke. like you The dad gets mad at the defenders for scratching his car, and then Nighthawk threatens to beat him up. He and his son drive off, vowing to sue them.
01:19:34
Speaker
Polaris suggests that maybe the entire crisis is media exaggeration. Yeah, yeah, because the first villain calling himself a defender was just a little... Yeah, yeah. Didn't exist. Didn't even exist. Great instincts.
01:19:46
Speaker
i Cut to that weird gold guy from last issue. His name is Codename Sergei, and he's in Russia. And what he saw last issue was some giant irradiated amoeba. He tries to fight it, but gets sucked in.
01:19:58
Speaker
I don't care, Pat. Matt, they're setting up. It seems like they're setting up a story for a different comic book it in like these little two page bursts through these issues. But no, we are did they not going to get there.
01:20:12
Speaker
Yeah. Did they know that We're not following the Defenders? i guess not. Did anyone tell them that? Okay. We cut back to Hellcat's Looney Tunes Dick Tracy-ass Playmobil toy car, where Hercules' team is crammed in and and arriving in the Diamond District of Manhattan. This is where we see fucking Black Goliath.
01:20:31
Speaker
They're all now in the car somehow, and Black Goliath is still giant size. they're barely fitting in. And it's because... Bill Foster will not size down.
01:20:44
Speaker
Yeah.
Villainous Antics and The Defenders' Struggles
01:20:45
Speaker
ah They see a David Bowie looking villain named Sagittarius standing on top of bags of loot with Blob, Whirlwind, Porcupine, Batroc the Leaper, and Beetle bagging up more and calling themselves Defenders.
01:20:59
Speaker
I guess we're meant to assume this is all stolen. Yeah, what's loot? Just loot? I think it's diamonds. they start They make a few references later to it being diamonds, but it is not clear.
01:21:12
Speaker
It's the point that in the Diamond District of Manhattan... There's just diamonds everywhere? Yes, there is a a diamond bank and they have gotten to the vaults. They do you have, they have like trash bag, trash bag size canvas bags full of diamonds and there's dozens of them.
01:21:32
Speaker
Well, at least they're being eco-conscious using their canvas bags instead of plastic. I'm impressed, Matt. i We just did the hero with knowledge comparison in the last issue. I got to these villains and I was like, I'm not even going to try.
01:21:45
Speaker
i don't know who the fuck these people are. Really? I knew all of them. i knew all of them except for Sagittarius. So far. So far. I knew Blob. I knew Porcupine.
01:21:56
Speaker
i knew who Batroc is. i do not recognize this costume he's in but um Whirlwind is actually a mutant. Weirdly enough, he's like an Avengers villain, but he's a mutant. I don't know who the fuck Sagittarius is. He looks like fucking David Bowie.
01:22:13
Speaker
He does, like Labyrinth David Bowie. Yeah, like a combination between Ziggy Stardust and Labyrinth David Bowie. Yeah, yeah. Hellcat screeches to a halt and the defenders leap out to clobber the villains.
01:22:25
Speaker
Hercules punches the fuck out of the blob. White Tiger kicks the fuck out of Batroc. Goliath backhands the fuck out of Whirlwind. Hellcat stomps the fuck out of Sagittarius.
01:22:38
Speaker
Iron Fist kicks a bag of loot the fuck into Electro, who I guess is here too. Yeah. The fight is going well for the real defenders when the cops suddenly show up. Hercules argues that they are the real defenders and these villains are imposters.
01:22:52
Speaker
But Sagittarius argues the exact same thing. So the cop declares that everyone is under arrest, including Plant Man, who we just found out is YouTube. Okay.
01:23:05
Speaker
To be continued. They just keep adding villains. It's just like... It's clearly just like draw whoever. It has to be on purpose. It's that every panel, there's a new, like, goofy Silver Age villain popping up.
01:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, well, so Count Nefarious crew is almost entirely here, right? Except for the eel and Scarecrow. This is the crew that ah that bailed on him.
01:23:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's also a guy in the background who has like a white hood and purple arms who I have no idea who the fuck it is.
01:23:42
Speaker
No, absolutely no idea. He's just white and purple. i I've never seen this guy in my life. I've read so many Marvel comics. I've never seen this man. But hey, Havoc is in that last panel.
01:23:56
Speaker
So that's why we're reading this. It is. i Yeah. Havoc's in the first couple panels, too. And did you notice they just forgot to color him in? he is all white.
01:24:09
Speaker
yeah I think this is still so funny. i It's really good. as The superheroes are letting their egos and the world of politics get in the way of absolutely everything.
01:24:24
Speaker
They don't help anyone here. They only make situations worse. Yes. Yeah. It's so good. I don't even know that I have a lot of... Because it's all here on the page.
01:24:38
Speaker
All the ridiculousness is here on the page. Yeah, yeah. He has out-sillied us. Yeah, exactly. It's so good. like I can't even... It's Yeah.
01:24:51
Speaker
It's very, like... um it's I have a few comparisons, but it feels like a return to sort of the early 70s of Marvel with Steve Englehart, Steve Gerber, Marv Wolfman days where they were they were trying to be just as weird as they could and were really trying to like stick it to the man in a very hippie way. Yeah.
01:25:17
Speaker
I mean, Steve Gerber wrote The Defenders before ah David Kraft came on. Right. And who was writing them when we read? Was that Steve Englehart? It took itself a little more seriously.
01:25:30
Speaker
i Man, it's so i love Hellcat is just happy to be on a team with a bunch of what she calls hunks. her What is her car, dude? That is so – we use a lot of comparisons to describe it in our recap here, but Roger Rabbit.
01:25:49
Speaker
It is Roger. Yeah. Roger Rabbit's car is the best one that we have, the first and the best one. and It is absolutely Roger Rabbit's car. the It just doesn't talk.
01:26:02
Speaker
And man, Nighthawk is so mad throughout this whole story. And he threatens to beat up the guy. oh no, I thought he threatened to beat up the guy's car.
01:26:13
Speaker
But he's making like a, he's using it as like a metaphor threaten to beat up the man. but Yeah, exactly. he's He's physically threatening this man just for being, i mean, for being rude. But as a superhero, it's, and we've talked about Nighthawk before. this was...
01:26:31
Speaker
I believe a Steve Gerber creation for an issue of Avengers where they wanted to make fun of the Justice League. So they brought in i so they brought in Nighthawk to make fun of Batman. This is supposed to be like the, the, arrogant hes over egotistical version of Batman.
01:26:55
Speaker
it was a Roy Thomas creation. Yeah. A Roy Thomas c creation. Thank you. we Cut where I said it was anybody else. the They do. It's like it's supposed to be a ah parody. And then for some reason he got stuck in the defenders and took on this sort of serious persona as a real superhero.
01:27:15
Speaker
Yes. And now and so I think maybe as a comment on that. So, OK, I've been flipping through. Len Wein wrote the last defenders that we read.
01:27:26
Speaker
And it was right after joined. I got all. join And then Steve Gerber writes the defenders for like a long while. And then think, and then I think I read somewhere. i haven't clicked all the way through to it, but I think I read somewhere else that like Chris Claremont writes maybe two issues.
01:27:45
Speaker
Okay. And then it is David craft. And it seems like David craft is making fun of how serious night Hawk has grown to take himself.
01:27:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I would believe that started by Steve Gerber. This is, I think this is right around when he invents Howard the Duck. Yeah, I mean, i don't i don't know. Maybe it's David Graff is writing in the tradition of Steve Gerber, who's making fun of Len Wein for writing a serious... somebody It seems like like at some point somebody wrote a serious Nighthawk and it made some other writers mad. Kissed off a lot of people, yeah. They changed it from being he is just ah ah a doofus, which is how we read him,
01:28:32
Speaker
In the Len Wein issues. To. Just an angry jackass. Yeah. Which is how David Kraft writes him. Which I think is the ideal way to portray him.
01:28:43
Speaker
Yeah. Like what's what would you hate about having Batman on a team? Yeah he's a real prick. Yeah he's just being a baby about everything. And he talks about how rich he is a lot.
01:28:57
Speaker
This issue ruled. Absolutely ruled. Okay. Defenders 64 D-Day. <unk> right You can't just call something D-Day. At the end of last issue, they said day of, they called it, they were like, next issue, day of the defenders. And then in this one, they call it D-Day. ah Written by David Anthony Kraft. ah Drawn by Sal Buscema and Don Perlin.
01:29:22
Speaker
Lettered by Jay Costanza. Colored by Bob Sharon. Edited by Bob Hall. Jim Shooter, editor-in-chief. Release date, July 25th, 1978. Cover date, October 1978. The argument between the cops, Hercules' team of defenders, and the villains continues.
01:29:41
Speaker
Hercules tries to settle the matter with his Avengers ID, but while they look it over, the villains flee. the heroes give chase into grand central station and hercules satisfyingly bulldozes through the turnstiles it's pretty cool fuck the mta right uh i don't have any stake in that fight i I don't live in New York. White Tiger tackles Batroc.
01:30:07
Speaker
Captain Ultra meets Whirlwind in midair. Iron Fist karate chops a guy I don't recognize. That purple and white guy from last issue. I don't know who the fuck this guy is.
01:30:18
Speaker
And Hercules takes a big swing at Blob's huge belly with a beautiful blom. Blom. As his fist bounces off. The villains hop on a subway car, I guess, like, too fast for the defenders to stop. Like, what?
01:30:38
Speaker
They get on a subway car? They're bad heroes, Matt. They don't have time as the doors slowly close. Anyway, the subway takes off sped up by Electro's powers.
01:30:51
Speaker
The Defenders fail to stop it, and so take to the streets, following the path of the train with Captain Ultra's, quote, scanner vision? What is this? i so I don't fucking know, man. We're not following Captain Ultra.
01:31:07
Speaker
We get a quick cut to Dr. Bill doing something that seems to have something to do with another Defenders story, but of course, we're not following the Defenders, so we don't care. Leave me out of it.
01:31:18
Speaker
We catch up with Nighthawk's team in... wall street who quickly stopped the same kid from earlier from stealing a purse his mom's purse his mom's purse when they quit when they question when the the team questions whether or not this is a waste of their time nighthawk calls them all babies and so they all quit including lucky cyclops wasn't there
01:31:49
Speaker
like polaris and they fly off the kid hands back the purse revealing that it was just his mom after all sorry what's with this kid's fucking family dude i know these parents need to uh take some responsibility here immediately nighthawk is alerted to another group of super villains parading as defenders shocker boomerang frog guy melter a big blonde man with a beard and buddy it's toad there's toad back clinging to the leg of their leader libra
01:32:31
Speaker
The only reason Nighthawk hops is because it's Wall Street. He was like, oh, no, not Wall Street. It's like so the stock exchange. He says, oh, no, not the stock exchange. Those are all my friends.
01:32:48
Speaker
And my money. My money's there. Not my money. but ah man. They quickly beat Nighthawk's whole ass. Yeah. And walk away. Nighthawk. Very satisfying again.
01:33:01
Speaker
Punch drunk goes looking for help. Meanwhile, Hercules team catches up with the group of villains. And that guy I didn't know the name of is apparently the looter.
01:33:12
Speaker
The looter. Who knew? They all tussle, but Blob grabs Hellcat in a stranglehold, cutting off her air as she faces death.
01:33:23
Speaker
Her psychic powers kick in and somehow she knocks out every single hero and villain in the subway. Which I guess includes Havoc, but he's nowhere to be seen.
01:33:36
Speaker
you Hellcat can do this? I don't know, man. I don't know. We're not following Hellcat. Nighthawk catches up with Valkyrie and joins her team, who heads off to the docks to find the Libra and his villains, including some cowboy villain named Pecos?
01:33:53
Speaker
Yes. I guess. his His power is he's just got a He's got cowboy accent.
01:34:00
Speaker
He's got two six shooters, Matt. Toad flees, hopping into the water, and calling calling Libra master. ah He's back to that.
01:34:12
Speaker
He's regressed. Yeah. Just as the team lands on the villain's ship, Valkyrie starts hallucinating that she is on a Viking ship being attacked by trolls and starts lashing out in all directions.
01:34:26
Speaker
Oh, ah also the blonde guy's name from earlier. With a beard. the blind guy with a beard his name is Joe the gorilla which we find out just before he's thrown like a mile into the air by Valkyrie like he passes a plane she starts knocking literally everyone off the boat thinking they're trolls leaving only Nighthawk who thinks she kicked out the other new defenders on purpose he's like ah good job Valkyrie you got rid of those other Johnny come lightly's
01:35:02
Speaker
ah She taking Nighthawk to be a troll almost guts him when her sanity returns. As the ah team, as the other defenders pull themselves out of the water, they all they all resign.
01:35:17
Speaker
Of course. All of them are like, which what why did you do that? I'm out of here. Before the issue ends, we see the Russians talking about the new red guardian and learning about codename Sergei.
01:35:29
Speaker
I don't don't care. to be continued. Not really. Yeah, I don't know. they They say damn in this issue, Pat.
01:35:40
Speaker
Yes, that was pretty cool. love when superheroes like love we is superheroes cuss This is kind of the worst of the three of these issues so far. Really?
01:35:51
Speaker
yeah I think... So it's it does seem like... And I know we had the same complaint about the movie ah The New Mutants. Okay. But... It seems like this was the part where somebody was like, Dave, man, you got to put some actual superhero fights in here. This is a superhero comic book.
01:36:10
Speaker
Like there's, yeah there is, i think the continuation of this very funny sort of commentary that he's going for, but with actual fight scenes being forced in to the, uh, the satirical plot.
01:36:26
Speaker
And it's when it happens, we get to see Nighthawk get his ass kicked. He gets his ass kicked. It's funny to see Black Goliath try and stop the train.
01:36:37
Speaker
And then Hercules is like, I'll help. And then also grabs the train. And it just makes the train car snap off. It's also funny. They just yeah pulled the last car off. And then later on, they ruin the rest of those people's train ride. Yeah.
01:36:53
Speaker
And then they're running. This is okay. There's some good stuff here. Okay. So ah spray painted on that car is Turk. The name Turk. That's pretty good. From Daredevil. But next, they're all just running down the street chasing the car, ah that the train car that's underneath them.
01:37:10
Speaker
yeah And Hellcat is like out of breath. They have to run. like How are we supposed to keep up with a train? they're being yelled at by people like, you messed up our train. We're late to work now.
01:37:25
Speaker
Captain Ultra is flying and is like, you guys got to keep up. We're chasing a train In the last issue, they did the same thing where they were like, hey, you guys got to slow down. Some of us are carrying Kagak because he can't fly. Hey, how does Havoc, Iron Fist, and Hellcat run as fast as a train?
01:37:47
Speaker
i
01:37:50
Speaker
Super motivation. um So, yeah, that they then they fucking ruin the train. it's There's like, it's so funny ah when the kid snatches the purse.
01:38:08
Speaker
And like four superheroes for like Tagak, Nova, Son of Satan, Night Thresher, all bear down on a kid with a purse at once.
01:38:20
Speaker
And he's like, he's like, oh, no, not again. They're like, is this the same kid? This is that's part of what I love is they are taking the time. Yeah.
01:38:33
Speaker
in these stories to make those little jokes. The like, yeah the it is the same kid, or you're going too fast, please slow down and let me catch up. it's yeah it's it's with What they're doing here very subtly is having the civilians involved in all these hijinks just make like snide comments about how their day is now ruined because...
01:38:59
Speaker
The defenders are not in any way, whether it's the original team or this full cast of people who want to be defenders. Yeah. They are not in any way capable of handling a situation. They are ruining days, in some cases, ruining lives of the people around them.
01:39:17
Speaker
Yeah. Making a mess of the city and they are not beating the bad guys. It's funny when whirlwind fights captain ultra, He's like, what's your name anyway, fella? Captain Eyesore? And and and he says, Captain Ultra.
01:39:36
Speaker
goes, no, it's Captain Ultra. Idiot. Take that back.
01:39:45
Speaker
Pat, do you want to sum up the final issue of Defenders? ah The Defenders for a Day storyline? who
Satire of Superhero Egos and Creative Team Changes
01:39:53
Speaker
I'm sorry. i do have to ah correct you on that one, Matt. This arc is officially named Dollar Bill's Documentary Debacle.
01:40:04
Speaker
there's Well, okay. If you look it up in, say, the Marvel Wiki. Sure. They're called the – like this whole team is called the Defenders for a day. Yeah, the team of the team.
01:40:20
Speaker
Okay. Is called Defenders for a Day. This is part of the Dollar Bill's documentary disaster arc, according to the Marvel Wiki. He settles all our debates.
01:40:30
Speaker
According to Comic Vine, it's called the Defenders Defenders for a Day arc. That's nonsense. You just said nonsense. All right. I win the argument. Matt, let me tell you about the relevant parts of Defenders number 65 of Ambitions and Giant Amoebas. I can't wait to see what happens to our boy Havoc because Polaris already left.
01:40:54
Speaker
David Kraft story, Don Perlin and Bruce D artwork, Gene Symec letters, P. Goldberg colors, Bob Hall editor, Jim Shooter editor in chief. Release date August 29th, 1978.
01:41:06
Speaker
Cover date November 1978. I can't wait. I'm excited. The issue opens with Havoc quitting due to Hellcat's psychic attack and Blob wondering why he ever joined another supervillain team.
01:41:17
Speaker
That is the extent of what's relevant to the X-Men in this issue.
01:41:24
Speaker
Huh. That's it. They go on to address that story about the Red Guardian and Codename Sergei and the weird boring creature he's created. I'm bored.
01:41:38
Speaker
Matt, I read through this issue. is not fun at all. money It is insane the switch that they flipped. Yeah. To get into just to get right back to the defenders, the core defenders, taking themselves very seriously and trying to handle a high stakes threat.
01:42:01
Speaker
That's wild but because it's still very colorful. it is. And look, there' it's got a defender's twist. They're still like the the b team It's got an appearance by Millie the model.
01:42:15
Speaker
Yes. But it's just got like a boring conversation between Patsy Walker and Millie. It's got the female red guardian who's cool.
01:42:26
Speaker
She's got a cool costume. Yeah. Sure. It's got cool things about it. It's just we just read, i think, yeah a work of art. And now we're back to to pop comics.
01:42:39
Speaker
Yeah. Well, yeah, because there's a bit of me that was like, maybe I should read The Defenders. I know. Maybe not. See, I think we've read the Defenders that are worth reading.
01:42:51
Speaker
hi but I really, yeah I love the way. So if we look at this as just a three issue arc with a little epilogue from issue four. Yeah. Yeah. It is in clearly an extremely fun little run that's just sandwiched between stories where the defenders do take themselves too seriously. Because we just came from, as we see in Dollar Bill's documentary, ah a situation where they had to save the entire world and they defeated some powerful villain to do so.
01:43:21
Speaker
And then we immediately go in. But in between, ah issue number one here takes everyone clearly takes themselves very seriously, clearly thinks very highly of themselves, and it's getting in the way of them being superheroes.
01:43:36
Speaker
Issue number two, they can barely get over their egos to go fight crime, let alone get over their egos to beat a hodgepodge of low-tier villains. The porcupine is here. Yeah.
01:43:50
Speaker
And then issue three, they cannot win a fight without making without making things actively worse for the people they're trying to protect or even without hurting their teammates. Every victory here comes from them hurting everyone on the board, whether they are friend or foe.
01:44:07
Speaker
And then everyone just quits because it's shit. Like it's, it is, it has a very, ah Well, actually, I'll get to this later, but it's just like this three issues story.
01:44:20
Speaker
Yeah, that is just there to make fun of B tier superheroes. That's true. I like some of the heroes in this, by the way. Like, I don't.
01:44:31
Speaker
Yeah. Like, I think Hellcat is kind of I don't know. Like, OK, it's any hero is only as good as what has been written featuring them.
01:44:42
Speaker
Right. And I don't I've never read a good Hellcat story, but I kind of like Hellcat based on her sort of her personality and her character design. And her story as a whole is really fascinating. She was just Patsy Walker for a long time. And then she was a pre superhero Marvel comic book character before yeah before Spider-Man.
01:45:04
Speaker
And then she gained powers through this really interesting bargain. And then went on to join the Avengers. went on to I'm with you, Matt. I don't think these are bad heroes, but they are all B-tier. Son of Satan is not like... No one's clamoring for that.
01:45:21
Speaker
I love Havoc and Polaris. I love Stingray's costume. I've never read a Stingray story, like I said. I kind of... i loved Jack of Hearts in... At the end of Avengers Volume 1, right? Like, Geoff Johns' run and his to his return and explosion in Avengers Disassembled. i like Ms. Marvel.
01:45:43
Speaker
Prowler's got a cool costume. I like Falcon. Like, I like a lot of these guys. Yeah, yeah. and so But, damn. Yeah, they are they are all so ridiculous. They're just so ridiculous. i like Iron Fist, obviously. they's They're just so ridiculous. It's just it's so And this is sort of the way i think...
01:46:07
Speaker
It's hard to say. You can tell very good and affecting stories with superheroes, right? We see it in Claremont's X-Men. Yeah, yeah. But... It's so fun to not take superheroes seriously and do shit like this, right? Because in at their core, they are ridiculous. Everything about them is ridiculous.
01:46:27
Speaker
Right. it's it's It's high fantasy, essentially, ah just, like, this deep lore and these ridiculous characters that are... Wearing stupid outfits.
01:46:39
Speaker
They have dumb origins. And they have overly ah dramatic personalities. They're stupid. It's stupid. Superheroes are stupid. But they are tools which can be used to tell good stories.
01:46:53
Speaker
um And inject interesting personalities. But... You can also do this. You can also tell ridiculous stories where they're idiots. What are your... So if we're looking at this Havoc and Polaris path as a whole, what are your what are your thoughts here? it doesn't It's absurd. It doesn't make any fucking sense.
01:47:16
Speaker
and Okay. The Claremont burn stuff makes sense, even if I hate it, right? Yeah. Abdul obviously would come back someday. Unfortunately, he'll probably do it again because it's his only path to whatever goal he has that we don't understand.
01:47:33
Speaker
But he must think about Havoc every single day if they're drawing from the same power source and he's like obsessed with becoming more powerful. So it makes sense. And then it makes sense that Havoc would then be like, would be worried about Polaris and then be like, I got to get back to her. Right.
01:47:50
Speaker
This Defenders thing just doesn't make sense at all. Like, I can't, we could try and think of the psychology of it. It's like, um maybe they were just sitting around one day, they saw the documentary, and they were like, maybe we should give it a go and try to be heroes. But that doesn't make sense.
01:48:03
Speaker
It doesn't make sense with their characters. I don't, yeah I cannot make it fit with their personalities. I made it fit. Okay, go ahead. yeah um No, I mean, i i think I'm looking at this more from a storytelling perspective than a then a yeah character perspective.
01:48:24
Speaker
I... e thought these team up issues were just silly. I'm sure it makes sense that this would happen. But we're trying to follow up on a bad story here.
01:48:35
Speaker
Claremont has this need to take it very seriously. Yeah. ah There's so many inconsistent inconsistencies around how this power works. And that's just I like, we're not even improving the story. We are just leaving it with all the same holes that had the first time around.
01:48:52
Speaker
It just didn't need to be told. Whereas the defenders, I would say it would, i I think there is a story there that does need to be told because again, ah professor Abdul is a loose end.
01:49:05
Speaker
It doesn't make sense that he would give up. Right. But you're right. They it's just the same story again. It doesn't we don't get any more depth about it. We don't get any resolution. It's just the same exact thing.
01:49:18
Speaker
Yeah. We substitute the X-Men for Spider-Man. A story needed to be told here. Oh, I still would hate it because I don't want to read about the living monolith. But a story needs to be told here for ah the Marvel Universe to make sense.
01:49:33
Speaker
But this wasn't that story. The Defenders run, on the other hand, is silly intentionally. i It's supposed to be satirical. Kraft clearly wanted to tell a story about cheap fame and how it creates fragile, disruptive personas.
01:49:48
Speaker
It's very relevant to and has a very similar feel without the bite, I think, to Mike Allred's X-Force. Yeah, Peter Milligan and Mike Allred's X-Force, which turns into ecstatics. Yeah.
01:50:00
Speaker
Yeah, which we will absolutely get to one of i think I borrowed that from you, Matt, and fell in love with it immediately. It's so good. But this feels like the same attitude towards it, right? This isn't Alan Moore's sort of dark, moody reflection on how corrupted the world would be if superheroes existed. This is just somebody saying like,
01:50:22
Speaker
They would actually kind of suck in a funny way. They would be silly. heros They would be silly and incompetent and they would probably ruin your day. Annoy everybody. Yeah. i And that's what I want to read out of comics, which i I know isn't sustainable. You need something to actually make a parody of. Right.
01:50:42
Speaker
Which is fine. We're going right back to Claremont X-Men after this. Like I said, it be I think it's going be very serious and high stakes again. I think you can do it with both. But I guess here's... You asked me how I make sense of this story of Havoc and Polaris's.
01:50:58
Speaker
I don't know that you answered that question. How do you make sense of this as part of Havoc and Polaris's story? i I think it is the... And again, this isn't necessarily in character. It's more ah about the idea that this flashy documentary...
01:51:18
Speaker
brought out the worst in all of these heroes it brought out their egos it brought out their desire for that like 15 minutes of fame this is like when you're sitting around watching the amazing race with your friends and you look at each other and you're like we should go on that which i've never done but i hear that is a very common experience amongst people okay so we have uh a little bit of bad news Yeah, little devastating
Closing Remarks and Social Media Engagement
01:51:48
Speaker
news. Let me make it a little more devastating for you, Matt, because you don't know this. We have ah Pat Steels and Deals theme that we are allowed to use.
01:52:02
Speaker
Don't get to use this episode because, so as listeners you may know, i have spent my vast, vast fortune collecting every original issue of the X-Men.
01:52:14
Speaker
And from that, I have the original ads that appeared in those issues. And I like to read through them here when I find something that I think is a steal and or a deal. I read everything from in trade, trade,
01:52:27
Speaker
And so I don't have those. i don't have those. Yeah, yeah. Because Matt doesn't have as much money as I used to before I spent it all on X-Men comics. But I had to go out and buy yeah ah Marvel Team-Up comics and Defenders comics.
01:52:42
Speaker
Yeah. Last minute. So i I couldn't get them from a reliable seller. And I don't know if you guys buy back issues at all, but it's this huge problem where people just go in and tear out the ads.
01:52:54
Speaker
Yeah.
01:52:57
Speaker
So these legally purchased copies of Marvel team offenders that I bought, somebody went through and ripped out all the ads. I'm sorry. I don't have a Pat Steels and Deals for you this week.
01:53:09
Speaker
Damn. Well, next episode, you guys can look forward to a Pat Steels and Deals theme song. That's right. Get ready.
01:53:19
Speaker
In the meantime, thank you guys so much for listening. Yeah. Yeah. It's not why we do it, but we really appreciate it. Yeah, we we would do it anyway. but And ah speaking of if you guys want to help us get more to listeners, which would be really fucking good for us, talk about us on social media.
01:53:39
Speaker
ah Follow us on Instagram at MutantMenacePod. Rate and review us everywhere you can on YouTube, on Spotify, on iTunes. Well, it's called Apple Podcasts now, Pat.
01:53:53
Speaker
Oh, that's weird. Yeah. What do I do with all these iTunes that I have? And like we said at the beginning of this episode, if you want to join our street team, email us at mutant menace pod at gmail.com. You can also email us there and ah give us your address.
01:54:15
Speaker
Give us ah your favorite X-Man and put street team in the subject line. We will not read your home address on Pat's email corner. I promise. We will only thank you.
01:54:27
Speaker
And if you want to be a part of Pat's email corner, write us about anything we talked about in this episode or just some other shit that you want to talk about. Yeah. just love chatting.
01:54:37
Speaker
Mutant Menace love reading your emails on air. MutantMenacePod at gmail.com. i As always, a big thanks to Krils Wilson for for today. Just the opening theme.
01:54:49
Speaker
i And a huge thanks. And close. Do we have a closing theme? Oh, I guess it's the opening theme again. Part of the opening theme. i Big thanks to Julia Selle, as always, for providing the voice of Trish Tilby.
01:55:04
Speaker
And Matt, I think that leaves us with just one last thing to do. Oh, yeah, this is the end where we say our catchphrase. Do you want to start? Yeah. As always, listeners, I don't want to fight anyone, but you two have panicked my horse and I can't stop.
01:55:22
Speaker
You did a horse one. All right. And as we say every single episode, Stop Horse by the stars I said, Horse.