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The voice Jason Kenney doesn't want you to hear
62 Plays5 years ago
Alberta has deliberately designed its economy to be reliant on oil and gas production--which means the international climate change crisis matters here more than almost anywhere else. But you won't hear much on that subject from Alberta's monolithic, corporate media establishment. On this special episode of the Progress Report, taped live at the University of Calgary on November 4th, we interview climate activist and former Oil Sands Advisory Group member Tzeporah Berman to understand the climate debate beyond the narrow perspective and shallow discourse we get here in Alberta.
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Transcript
Live Taping and Introduction of Zipporah Berman
00:00:16
Speaker
Friends and enemies, welcome to The Progress Report. I am your host, Duncan Kinney. We are recording here in Calgary, here on Treaty 7 territory, the Arts Lounge, here at the University of Calgary, for our very first live taping of The Progress Report podcast. You can hoot and holler right now. And for our very first live podcast taping of The Progress Report, we decided to bring in a guest that was guaranteed to trigger the Chuds.
00:00:45
Speaker
That's right, we brought in Zipporah Berman. Zipporah Berman is an author, an organizer, an activist, and frankly, one of Jason Kenney's most hated people, at least if you just go by his public statements, which in my mind is a really good thing.
00:01:02
Speaker
Zapora originally made her bones on the front lines of the fight against clear-cut logging on Vancouver Island, but since then has become one of Canada's most high-profile environmental and climate change activists. She became a target of Kenny and the UCP when she was appointed to the Oil Sands Advisory Board by the former NDP government, and since then she's been targeted over and over again by Kenny. To the point,
00:01:23
Speaker
where we have to hire security guards to pick her up at the airport and to keep track of this room because she has had people come up to you at the airport and harass you, right?
Climate Emergency and Alberta's Role
00:01:36
Speaker
You know, these days she is the International Program Director of Stand.Earth and a key figure in the fight to save the world. So everyone in the room, please welcome Sepora Berman to the Progress Room. Thank you.
00:01:52
Speaker
Thanks so much for coming. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I mean, I really do value the like, I tend to judge people by the enemies they make. And I think the enemies that you have made mean that you are, in fact, a very good person when you look at, you know, oil sands majors, the Jason Kenny, the like absolute ghouls of our age.
00:02:16
Speaker
But yeah, this is the reason why you're here, right? And I think that it is important to realize who your enemies are. And that's definitely going to be a thing we're going to come back to in the context of this conversation. But the reason why I wanted to bring you on is also because we live in Alberta, and Alberta
00:02:38
Speaker
and climate change, there's gotta be a reckoning at some point. And I do wanna just set the stage for what the realities on the ground are when it comes to the climate science. I know you think about this stuff an awful lot, and I just wanna set the stage, and I think we all in this room know, and listening to this room know that there's a climate emergency, but what is the actual reality?
00:02:59
Speaker
Well the actual reality is that even just last week we're seeing report after report from scientists from around the world saying that it's much worse than they thought. You know when we see these projections and it says you know in the next 10 years we're going to be experiencing this much and floods and fires or
00:03:18
Speaker
less agricultural production, etc. Most of those reports are the most conservative assessments. And if you look at the last 20 years of scientific reports from the United Nations, from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the only thing that they've gotten wrong is that it's happening much faster than we thought.
00:03:41
Speaker
So we've seen a 50 percent increase globally in the severity and frequency of violent storms, more floods, more fires, more hurricanes. And, you know, it's in the simplest terms. It's because carbon is trapped in our atmosphere. It's like a blanket and it's smothering the earth. And so that doesn't mean everywhere gets hotter.
00:04:03
Speaker
It actually means that we have a greater frequency of extreme weather, extreme hots and colds. So already today there are areas of the planet that are almost inhabitable that are just too hot. There are a number of areas now that will no longer grow food. We're seeing more people losing their homes today as a result of climate change than war.
00:04:28
Speaker
millions of people that are being displaced. And I think, you know, here in Alberta, people know it really now. The polls show people know it, but also Alberta has been hit really hard the last couple of years, the floods, the fires. It's happening now.
00:04:43
Speaker
Yeah, just in the past decade, right? We've had, you know, the largest mass evacuation in Alberta's history where Fort McMurray was on fire. We've had, you know, that's the Lake Fire and like all of downtown Calgary underwater. Like it is, when you talk about climate change making weather events worse, like we have actually seen it firsthand. And so, okay, so we know it's bad.
00:05:05
Speaker
We know it's bad and the big issue is that we can negotiate and argue all we want about what should happen and how fast it should happen.
Canada's Emission Challenges Post-Paris Agreement
00:05:14
Speaker
But the atmosphere doesn't negotiate. There is basic physics happening at this point in time and that means that every ton of pollution, every ton of carbon matters. So everybody likes to say it's this country's fault or it's that country's fault or we're a small part of the problem or
00:05:30
Speaker
You know, yes, we need to reduce fossil fuels and oil and gas and coal. We know that's what's creating the problem, but not mine. Mine are okay. Have you heard of China? Right. The fact is, right now what the science shows us is every ton of carbon matters.
00:05:46
Speaker
So what that actually means is that everything that we do now to reduce the amount of pollution, to reduce the amount of fossil fuels we're putting into the system, saves lives. Literally saves lives. And so that means that every country and every industry needs to reduce pollution now. And that's what the last IPCC report said.
00:06:09
Speaker
It was peer reviewed by 6,000 scientists from around the world and 140 countries, including ours, signed off on the conclusions. And the conclusion of that report is if we want to keep our kids safe, if we want to keep our communities safe, then we have to ensure that every country, every industry, reduces pollution now, production and emissions. And the fact is we're sitting here in Alberta and emissions are going up, not down.
00:06:36
Speaker
And the time frame for this action is now, right? It's like yesterday. Yeah, there's no wiggle room in these estimates. We got to go.
00:06:44
Speaker
No, so our country, in order to make it, it's a global problem, right? Yes, it is a global problem. We can't solve it on our own, but we have to do our fair share. And every country and every province has to agree to do our fair share, because that's how global problems get solved. And so all the countries get together. Once a year, we make an agreement. We signed it in Paris, the United Nations Climate Change Agreement. And what we all said was that we're going to reduce emissions as quickly as we can.
00:07:11
Speaker
Canada's targets are actually pretty weak. They're the targets that Harper set, that Trudeau has kept. But the fact is we set a target and we said we would try and do our fair share. We so far can't meet that target, and it's because of growing emissions from the production of oil and gas. It's actually not transportation and individuals driving their cars. In fact, people are using more transport, public transport. They're cycling more. Canadians are starting to buy hybrids and electric cars.
00:07:37
Speaker
But the emissions from the production of oil and gas are growing up, growing, going up. And so now they're the largest segment of pollution in Canada is from the production of oil and gas. So we've set the premise, you know, climate change emergency is happening, we've got to act
Jason Kenney's Narrative vs. Environmentalists
00:07:53
Speaker
now. And in that context, we have a political and corporate class here in Alberta that is practicing what I call like the new climate denialism, right?
00:08:03
Speaker
It's not about denying the science. The Friends of Science and Barry Cooper, that's all kind of very quaint 15 years ago stuff. What we are talking about now is using the power of the state to frustrate and to roll back even the modest climate action that has already been brought forward. And in this context, I think it's worth talking about Jason Kenney.
00:08:24
Speaker
And this narrative that he's constructed that both helped him win the election and as well has informed the very idea behind the public inquiry and the war room. And that is this idea that there are American foundations that are funding environmentalists and environmental and climate activists in this country in order to sabotage Alberta's economy. And it's this idea and kind of creating this enemy, creating this other
00:08:53
Speaker
that is behind so much of Kenny's rhetoric right now. And again, behind these like, the war room has $30 million of money at its disposal. The public inquiry has $2.5 million at its disposal. And the ability to like someone, someone like me, to be hauled in front of them and compelled to give evidence and testimony. Like that's not nothing. That's a lot of power that is being brought to bear on this, on this like, what is frankly like a bullshit narrative, right? And I think it's worth debunking that narrative for not too long, but definitely for a little bit.
00:09:23
Speaker
And so there was this recent story by Sandy Garasino from the National Observer. It was an excellent database deconstruction of this. I was wondering, you know, what jumped out at you from that piece?
00:09:34
Speaker
Well, the first thing that jumps out is that Sandy wanted to know where the money was coming from and how the strategy that environmental groups and indigenous leaders were using to try and raise awareness about rising emissions and the need to fight climate change and the concern about the expansion of the oil and gas industry. So where is the strategy coming from?
00:09:58
Speaker
So Kenny and others will say that the strategy is coming from big US foundations. And Garasino did something radical. She asked us where we got our money and where the strategy was developed. I've been working on oil sands and pipeline campaigns now for over a decade. And I was hired by a number of foundations from around the world.
00:10:24
Speaker
to help coordinate funding to support communications and education and research on oil and gas and climate change. And so I know exactly where the money comes from and who decides how it's spent. And the fascinating thing about the whole $30 million inquiry is we could save Alberta $30 million and looking at the budget, there's a lot of places that need it right now.
00:10:48
Speaker
We're cutting the wages of teachers, nurses, paramedics, people on ACE are getting less money. Cutting high tech and clean tech and cutting the film industry and many other things. So here you go, Alberta. Here's $30 million.
00:11:04
Speaker
There are a number of philanthropic foundations from around the world who became concerned about growing pollution from Canada and the plans to dramatically expand the oil and gas sector. When Harper stood up in the UK years ago and said, Canada will become a superpower, we're going to triple the size of the oil sands.
00:11:21
Speaker
and at a time when the world was struggling to start trying to figure out how to address climate change. And so they're not all from the US actually, a number of them are European. These are international foundations that focus on climate change, clean water, clean air. And they hired me and others because they wanted to make sure that Canadians were driving the strategy and that we were recommending where grants should go.
00:11:50
Speaker
And so, yes, some money came from outside of Canada in the same way that every think tank and every company in this country gets money from outside of Canada. The interesting thing about Canada is we're incredibly inventive. We have some incredibly strong industries and a very small population. And the result is the way our economy is structured is that
00:12:11
Speaker
We export a lot of goods and we bring in a lot of money in order for companies to flourish. So every single oil company in this province, for example, the majority of money from investors will be from outside of Canada. The majority of profits are probably flowing outside of Canada. Alberta's a branch plant of the United States, right? And it's an international issue. So the idea
00:12:33
Speaker
their ideas put forward in the war room that Alberta is being unfairly targeted. The fact is that it's a tiny percentage of climate funding worldwide, less than one percent, that will go into Canada because, yes, emissions are greater in other countries. Canada is one of the top ten, but the fact is that
00:12:56
Speaker
The majority of philanthropic dollars to fight climate change is going to the U.S. and China and India, and there are campaigns on every single major pipeline and every large deposit of oil, gas, and coal and new coal plants being proposed all over the world.
Global and Local Climate Activism
00:13:12
Speaker
This is happening all over the world. It's happening in the U.S. and the Permian Basin, and look at the Dakota Access Pipeline.
00:13:17
Speaker
So you're a little more tuned into the international climate activism world, right? And the idea that Alberta is this special little place that is getting this unfair treatment from the rest of the world is like, well, no, there's climate action happening everywhere. You can't ship coal off the west coast of the United States, as far as I know, right? The state of New York has a ban on fracking. These things didn't just happen. The UK banned fracking. Yeah, just recently, right? Just last week.
00:13:44
Speaker
You know, the fact is there are campaigns all over the world, there is activism all over the world, and there is in Canada. I mean, a million people marched two weeks ago in Canada calling for climate action. Thousands have rallied during the student strikes here in Calgary, in Edmonton. Our kids are scared, right? And they have a right to be scared. And I think one of the things that bothers me most about the War Room and the inquiry is that people are afraid.
00:14:13
Speaker
People are afraid because the world is changing really quickly, because they're afraid that we need to shift and diversify our economy, that jobs in oil and gas will have to wind down over time. I mean, our own government has said that we're going to get to net zero emissions by 2050, that we are going to entirely get off fossil fuels. So the idea of saying, excuse me, Premier Kenny, but this is the way the world is going, we need a plan.
00:14:41
Speaker
We actually need a plan actually benefits Albertan workers and families. But I think what's happening right now is that Jason Kenny is being played. Right now, he's a tool for billionaire CEOs who want Albertans to fight their fight for them.
00:15:00
Speaker
They're crying wolf, right? They're out there saying this is a terrible time and it's all those environmentalists and the big funders problem. They're saying that they're collapsing and that they're under threat and all of these arguments and that people need to stand up for them.
00:15:21
Speaker
But they're just crying poor because they're making record profits, right? Yes, like the big five in Alberta, like CNRL, Husky, Sanovus, Suncor, and one more that I'm forgetting. They're making money hand over fist. They're making money hand over fist while laying people off. Right. So the big five oil companies in Alberta are about 79% of the production in Alberta. And in 2017, they made 46 billion in profits.
00:15:50
Speaker
They gave back supposedly to Albertans about 2.3 billion in royalties, which by the way, is one of the lowest rates of royalties in the world. And at the same time, then the Alberta government gave them back $2 billion a year. So the Alberta government is subsidizing big oil to the tune of about $2 billion
00:16:13
Speaker
$2 billion a year of taxpayers' money going back to the most profitable companies. And they're saying we're in a fight for our lives. They are. They are in a fight for their lives. Because the oil and gas industry globally is a dying industry.
00:16:29
Speaker
In large part, because we're now seeing the electrification of transport, we're seeing a dropping of renewable energy prices incredibly. The world is moving to cleaner, safer energy systems. And so demand for oil is slowing down. Yes, it's still growing. Cap will tell you that over and over. And Jason Kenney will say that over and over. But it's slowing down. So here in Alberta right now, we're increasing production.
00:16:58
Speaker
and they're decreasing jobs. They see the writing on the wall and their response is to figure out how can they make the most money right now while employing less people, taking more subsidies from Albertans and then giving less back.
00:17:13
Speaker
And it's worth talking, I think, about just how tragically little class consciousness there is in Alberta, especially in the context of this petro-nationalism that we're seeing from, you know, the I Heart oil sands people or the Wexit and the Alberta separatism people. Like, we've got
00:17:30
Speaker
Someone from the Alberta Advantage in our audience here will, and he makes a great point about Alberta separatism, that it's a scheme, right? To fool people into thinking that they have more in common with oil millionaires and billionaires than they have with other Canadian workers. And the idea that workers are allying with their bosses in this fight on climate change is something that we need to think about, something that we need to talk about.
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah, because they're crying wolf, they're laying people off, and they're stashing money. They're stashing billions offshore.
00:18:08
Speaker
The big question is how do we make sure that our economy, the Canadian economy, Alberta's economy, and workers and their families are gonna be okay in this huge time of change? And you know what? The fact is the billionaires are gonna be fine. Murray Edwards made $10 million last year. Steve Williams from Suncor, $14 million last year. Murray Edwards has moved most of his money to London.
00:18:39
Speaker
Well, he and others try and make Albertans fight for them because how do they make that much money? Their base salaries are only a little over a million. They make that much money because of stock options and bonuses. They need to keep that stock price high. And I think they're doing it on the backs of Albertans.
00:18:56
Speaker
And so Jason Kenney keeps saying, this is a fight. Alberta, this is a fight. And so I guess I'm here in part to say, yeah, this is a fight. Albertans need to fight right now. You need to fight for a future, geothermal, hydrogen, renewable energy, your film industry, high tech, clean tech. Imagine if that $2 billion in subsidies was given last week to the film industry instead of to the companies that have the highest profits.
00:19:23
Speaker
then there would be more jobs in the future and they'd be clean jobs where people get to stay home.
00:19:29
Speaker
And this is why I think the Green New Deal is an important concept for climate activism, right? And like grafting class politics onto climate activism is something that's just needs to happen. It needs to be at the forefront of it, right? Like I, before I started progress upward, I used to work for the Pemen Institute and the Pemen Institute is a fantastic organization. I'm not here to slag them, but they have a very like technocratic wonky approach to their climate change activism. And you need those people in your, on your side.
00:19:59
Speaker
But fundamentally, it seemed like so much of Canadian climate activism was filtered through this kind of like technocratic solutions approach where it's like, no, you actually just need millions of people in the streets to fight back against the billionaires who are making so much money off of the status quo in order to actually build the world that you want.
00:20:17
Speaker
The fact is that we do need both. We need good policy. We need good policy shops. My hat's off to Pemina and to all of those, all of you who are willing to stand up and have this conversation about climate change in Alberta and about what needs to happen because it's hard.
Challenges and Strategies in Alberta's Environmental Movement
00:20:36
Speaker
One of the things I find most about the people who contact me from Alberta is that they all think they're alone.
00:20:43
Speaker
And it takes a lot of courage to stand up and talk about these issues when your family and your neighbors work in the industry. And so I think the biggest mistake that we make is alienating ourselves from each other.
00:21:00
Speaker
And you know, you started off this podcast by talking about, you know, how's an enemy the state and an enemy of Kenny and you're doing something right when you're making enemies and to a certain extent, because we need to force a response, we need to have this conversation, and we need, you know, a higher profile, because quite frankly, we don't have millions for ads.
00:21:18
Speaker
that the oil companies and the pipeline companies have in order to get their message out. But we also need to have a common purpose. We need to have all hands on deck. We have about 10 years to turn this issue around.
00:21:33
Speaker
And what that means is if emissions continue to rise globally, then there's a point where we reach a tipping point. At that point, we could ban all cars from the planet, and the planet would continue to warm because we've lost too much sea ice. There's not as much reflective ice on the planet. And so there is a clock ticking. And the change, we've got to stop pretending. And I think the environmental movement has done this, not pretended, but
00:22:02
Speaker
underplayed the change that needs to happen. In a place like Alberta, the change is going to be hard. But no one's saying turn the taps off overnight. No one's saying that the industry has to shut down tomorrow and everybody's going to be out of work. That would be absurd. Every industry, every country needs to stop growing, growing pollution and growing how much production of fossil fuels, oil and gas. And we have to figure out a plan
00:22:30
Speaker
And while we wind it down, we have to increase jobs in other sectors, increase retraining in other places. It's not rocket science and a lot of other countries around the world are already hard at it. They're reducing emissions, they're employing more people in clean energy and in low carbon industries.
00:22:48
Speaker
So we can do it, but we can only do it if we face it. And quite frankly, this war room and the hate and the death threats and everything that's been going on in Alberta really just makes me so sad because I think Albertans have the most amazing sense of innovation and community. I think we saw that during the fires, you know?
00:23:14
Speaker
And people engage, right? And they need to engage with each other. And this is why I like the Green New Deal frame, right? Like it reframes the conversation away from like personal sacrifice or like wearing a sweater to, you know, putting thousands, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people to work, right? Like when we think about the work that needs to be done,
00:23:34
Speaker
There's work that needs to be done. We got to pay people to do it. You got to plant trees. You have to reclaim old oil wells. You've got to install renewable energy projects. There's lots of shit to do. And we've got to start now. And the concept of the Green New Deal is like, oh, yeah. And the state can take this role and plan a bit of the economy and execute on that, right? Because quite obviously, the private sector has proven itself unable to deal with the climate change emergency that is unfolding.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah we need to make sure that no one is left behind and you can do that because if you stop subsidizing the oil billionaires and you start repurposing all of the money that for decades we've been pouring into that industry
00:24:13
Speaker
And in order to ensure it can grow and start putting it towards other industries and infrastructure that we need, digital infrastructure and electric grids and all these other opportunities, big tangible projects, geothermal in Alberta could be massive. And then those will employ more people.
00:24:38
Speaker
But it has to go hand in hand. And I think what's most disgusting about what we've seen from Premier Kenny, and to a certain extent from the big oil CEOs, most of them have said at various points, yes, we support a price on carbon. Yes, we support climate policy. Because actually, on an international stage, to keep their investors, they now have to, because the world has changed so much. But then here at home, they fund
00:25:04
Speaker
organizations that are trying to scare people to say that it's just going to make it more expensive for you to heat your home. It's going to make it more expensive for you to drive. But if you look at jurisdictions that have increased the price of carbon, what they've done is, yeah, they've increased the price, but they've also made it easier so every family actually has to buy less energy. You retrofit your home so you lose less. You create better public transportation.
00:25:30
Speaker
free charging for electric vehicles. There's lots of ways to help people reduce their costs. And if you're in a rural area where you're just simply dependent, you know, on heating your house with fossil fuels right now or using a big truck, then the legislation has to address those differences in order to make sure that no one's left behind.
00:25:52
Speaker
All right, so we couldn't go this entire conversation without doing one of my favorite subjects, and that's pipeline politics. The Trans Mountain expansion project has occupied so much space in the political discourse here in Alberta, and I think we do have to take some time to talk about it. And one of the ways maybe into that conversation is that something missed by most Alberta pundits and the political class here
00:26:22
Speaker
is that the fight against Trans Mountain is being largely led on the ground and in the courts by First Nations folks who are on the route. That's right. And the question of whether they're able to build that project on the traditional territories of these folks without their consent is a question that is at the fundamental heart of Canada's existence. And you can't just hand-wave that away
00:26:47
Speaker
and just say, well, economic development, or we've got to do it for reasons. This is a serious, serious question.
Indigenous Rights and Pipeline Expansion
00:26:54
Speaker
And the idea that these First Nations involved are in it for, I mean, the motives ascribed to them by Kenny and the pro-pipeline people are all over the map. Usually they're like bad folks who just want to mess with Alberta. That's not the case. They have their own very clear and cogent politics that is putting them in this position, right?
00:27:15
Speaker
So, you know, first thing I want to say about the pipeline is that it goes back to this issue of are you saying shut it all down or are you saying don't expand. The politics around the pipeline have been about, you know, these are people that are unrealistic and they're against oil and so therefore they don't want a pipeline.
00:27:36
Speaker
No, it's about whether or not we're making a decision to expand the size of the oil sands right now in history, not about whether it's open or exists or people work there. So if you're not expanding it, you don't need a pipeline. And this whole conversation that we're going to get a better price if we had access to tidewater
00:27:54
Speaker
is a red herring. It's actually not true, to be clear. We have a pipeline to Tidewater. I live next to it. It's the existing Kinder Morgan pipeline, and it goes right to Tidewater, and tankers come in every day. So if there was some huge demand in Asia, and it could get a better price, the tankers would be going to Asia, and they're not.
00:28:14
Speaker
Because there isn't a lot of heavy refining capacity in Asia. Our oil is expensive. It's expensive because it's hard to wrestle out of the ground. It's one of the highest cost, highest carbon oils on the planet. And you're not going to change that by building another pipeline. So there's that whole issue. But the issue you raise around indigenous rights
00:28:33
Speaker
Again, you know, Premier Kenny has said it's Trudeau's fault. You know, we don't have a pipeline, which is absurd because Harper was not successful in building any pipelines. He was part of that administration. But it's also absurd because the reason the pipeline was stopped the last time is because of an indigenous rights and treaty case. And that had nothing to do with Trudeau or many environmental group, in fact. It has to do with the fact that there are indigenous nations like the Tsleil-Waututh
00:29:00
Speaker
whose traditional territory is literally right across from the tank farm terminal. And these are people who their entire lives and their nations have always lived there in Burrard Inlet. And they have depended on shellfish as part of their survival. But more than that, their spirituality and their religion is that they are responsible
00:29:30
Speaker
to who they call their relatives beneath the sea, the orcas, and they are responsible for that inlet. Just from the existing tanker traffic that exists there now, there's always a little bit of leakage. It's just when they fill up, when they move around, and that inlet is dead. You can't eat shellfish there now in Burrard Inlet.
00:29:50
Speaker
And so for years they've been saying we can't expand the oil tanker traffic here because the ocean is dying and our inlet is dying and we can no longer harvest food and that's part of our treaty rights. And so that's part of their case. The other part of their case is that it is because of climate impacts.
00:30:09
Speaker
And they're taking a stand as a nation, as a government, to say that this is wrong. We shouldn't be expanding it at this moment. But the other issue that just doesn't get talked about here is if you expand the pipeline and expand the tanker traffic, which is a seven-fold increase in oil tankers right through Vancouver and Broad Inlet, it also means that you have way more tanks to hold the oil. So that old tank farm was built 50 years ago. And then the city of Burnaby grew up around it.
00:30:39
Speaker
And now they want to dramatically expand the tank farm, which means that there will be huge oil tanks that are right next to public schools and people's houses. And I don't know if anyone here saw it, but two weeks ago, two of those exact same type of tanks went up in California. And if they had been as close to schools and houses as the ones that are proposed are, then those people would have been incinerated.
00:31:04
Speaker
In the US, you can't put a tank as close as is being proposed at the end of the Trans Mountain pipeline. And that's why the deputy fire marshal and the mayor of Burnaby have said that they can't guarantee citizens safety if this pipeline goes through and why they're opposed to it. And no one talks about that here. So what about public good? What about the safety of the 20,000 people who are at SFU University at the top of that mountain?
00:31:29
Speaker
If the tank farm goes, there's no escape route for the entire university, which is why the university is opposed to it. This is a super complex issue. It's a poorly planned project.
00:31:41
Speaker
Well, and this is the conversation and the information that you don't get from media here in Alberta, right? The former government here, the Alberta NDP, and now the current government, were so unrelentingly pro-pipeline that there just wasn't any space in the discourse here in Alberta to be like, there are actually good arguments for why this pipeline shouldn't be built.
00:32:04
Speaker
And now it's just become this like... It's a political football. It's not about the real issues. It's not about the real policies or the real safety concerns. The real debate should be about whether or not we're deciding to expand the industry at this moment.
00:32:21
Speaker
and then therefore what kind of pipeline capacity do we need and what are the best projects, but instead it's become a you're either for us or against us and I think that's what scares me the most is that I worry that people are not talking about climate change in Alberta, they're not talking about the kind of economy and industry they want because they're afraid of being seen as anti-Albertan and that's what this inquisition
00:32:47
Speaker
inquiry is about right it's about scaring people back into your corners people because this is our plan for the economy and this is our plan for what we need to do and i think uh you know i i think we need to exactly reframe that if you are challenging billionaire ceos who are not giving back to alberta you know sure murray edwards put i love oil sands under the ice you know in the hockey rink um but
00:33:15
Speaker
I don't think the employment figures show that he loves oil sands workers. People are losing their jobs right now while they make record profits. And so the big question needs to be whose benefit? And this last budget? This last budget didn't benefit the public good. This last budget benefited oil CEOs, billionaires that already have the money.
00:33:37
Speaker
And so I think what's happening right now in Alberta is that Jason Kenney is either being played, and he's a tool for the oil billionaires, or it's corruption. But either way, it's a massive failure of leadership. Why not both? I mean, one thing. Hey, pause the line.
00:34:07
Speaker
I mean, one thing that our political and media class is also not acknowledging that it exists is the fact that there was 150,000 people on the streets for the climate strike in Vancouver. And that 15,000 people showed up in the streets for Greta Thunberg in Vancouver. And the eventual construction of the Trans Mountain Pipeline is going to be a contested site, most likely where we will see civil disobedience.
00:34:32
Speaker
There's a chance that this pipeline doesn't get built because the people who live there don't want it to be built. I think that is also something that has to be discussed, right? I think it's very likely. People keep saying to me, well, it's approved already and it's a done deal.
00:34:52
Speaker
26 now, 27 years ago, the first campaign I ever worked on was to stop thousand year old trees from being made into phone books. Many of you don't even know what a phone book is. But that was before we had internet.
00:35:07
Speaker
an exciting time when you actually had to go to a payphone because we didn't have cell phones anyways. My point is, 1,000-year-old trees being made into toilet paper and phone books and some of the last temperate rainforest on Vancouver, some of the big, big stuff, one of the largest areas left in Clackwood Sound, and everyone said it can't be done. The decision's already been made. The roads are in. The logging trucks are already moving.
00:35:32
Speaker
And the majority of the rainforest in Clackwood Sound stands today. The majority of the rainforest on the west coast and the Great Bear Rainforest stands today. Northern Gateway was approved and then approved and then approved and it was never built. And so, you know, I think there is a big chance that some of those indigenous rights cases could win. If not, I do think there'll be thousands of people standing in the way of that constructions and who knows where that will lead.
00:35:59
Speaker
But I also think there's a big chance that the government will have to concede that it made a bad investment. You know, if you actually look at that pipeline business case from the National Energy Board, or for that matter, Tech Frontier Oil Mine, which is being proposed here in Alberta, the business case for that, they're predicated on about an $85 barrel of oil for the next 40 years.
00:36:23
Speaker
Well, ask anyone, any bank, if they want to put billions towards an $85 barrel of oil. Oil does not cost that much now. It hasn't for a really long time, and that's not what the projections are. And they're also predicated on oil demand scenarios for China that China doesn't use anymore.
00:36:43
Speaker
Because China has passed a law that they're going to ban all fossil fuel cars, like nine other countries around the world, by the way, who have all passed legislation saying that they are going to ban by 2030 or 2035 the sale of fossil fuel cars, so oil cars. And so when that happens, you have to change the demand scenarios, how much oil you expect the world to use.
00:37:07
Speaker
So the world has changed those. China's changed those. And those projects are based on those old scenarios that oil demand is just going to keep growing. We need to recognize the trends that are happening around the world. And we need our government to actually be planning for where the world is going and where people are making money now, not yesterday. It's like the whole world is moving to Netflix. And Kenny's saying, but I love Blockbuster. I love it.
00:37:39
Speaker
I mean, you're not wrong. And the idea that this project is vital to the economic interests of Alberta has just been so cemented in our public discourse. And there's just certain classes of people and there's certain groups who will never be convinced otherwise. But I think there is a people who can be convinced. And I do, what do you have to say to Albertans who see Trans Mountain as this avatar for
00:38:04
Speaker
their identity and their economy. And this is not necessarily for the Chuds, but this is for people who are aware of this conversation, maybe haven't made a decision either way. This issue isn't going away in the short term with construction. What do you want to say to them? I want to ask them to ask the companies and their government, and the government, if this pipeline went through.
00:38:30
Speaker
And let's say the companies are making more money. Let's say I'm wrong and it works. Get more for a barrel of oil. They're making more money. Where does the money go? Are these companies that are gonna commit to employing more people in Alberta? Are they gonna commit to giving more money back to taxpayers through royalties? Because they've fought every royalty increase
00:38:58
Speaker
If Albertans had the royalty increases that Peter Lahid had proposed years and years ago, the whole economy would be in a different place, right? It's the same argument that I have with this argument that we're going to decrease emissions per barrel to such an extent that Alberta is going to have the cleanest oil.
00:39:17
Speaker
And we can do that through CCS, through carbon capture and storage. We've been told that now for a decade and literally billions of taxpayers dollars is going into it. And it drives me crazy because there's a lot of really smart people that are working on it and they've had some success. You know, there's some pilot projects. There's operations like Shell's Quest, you know, hats off. It's actually working for carbon capture and storage. They have the technology. They're not using it.
00:39:44
Speaker
and they're not using it because it's too expensive for them and it cuts into their profit margin. So I say call their bluff, call their bluff and say, okay, you believe in CCS? It's now mandatory. You say you're gonna make more money? What percentage of that goes back to Albertans? What percentage of that? How many more jobs are you going to create if you get that pipeline? If they had to commit to that, they wouldn't be supporting the pipeline.
00:40:11
Speaker
And I would also ask Albertans to put yourself in the place of a Burnaby resident, some of the moms that I know that are fighting this pipeline whose kids go to the schools next to the tank farm. Imagine that your kid is going to a school next to a tank farm and that your house is next to a tank farm and the fire marshal and the mayor have told you it's not safe and it threatens their lives. Imagine that. Put yourself in that position because I think Albertans care.
00:40:37
Speaker
And I think this divided country has got to stop. We don't have time for it.
00:40:46
Speaker
I'm glad you brought up the ethical oil argument. It's one that was trotted out by the Alberta NDP. It's trotted out by Kenny. It's the idea that because we have labor standards and we don't chop people's heads off here that are... Ah, the bone saw argument. Yes. That this somehow makes Alberta oil better.
00:41:08
Speaker
The idea is ludicrous on its face. The entire capitalist enterprise of the oil business does not care. We're not selling friendship bracelets at 10,000 villages here. This is the largest, most rapacious industry to have ever existed in humans.
00:41:27
Speaker
Yeah, but the reason it's so dangerous is that Albertans are proud of what they do. I have a lot of family who work in the industry here in Alberta and I think people are proud and they have a right to be proud. What has happened is a technological miracle and we need another one, right? We need more people focused on the solutions now. So we didn't know.
00:41:51
Speaker
We didn't know. We didn't know when we started expanding this industry that it was going to poison people's water, that it was going to poison the air, and it was going to threaten the global climate. We didn't know. And now we know. So what are we going to do together to sort that out?
00:42:06
Speaker
And that, I think, is the core crux of the issue. And just trying to whip up fear and trying to play on people's pride in this way, I think it is immoral. And I don't think it's helping at all. Because honestly, you were talking about the so-called foreign funding levels.
00:42:30
Speaker
You know, they've dropped a lot. They're going back up now since Kenny has announced the war room. You know, there's this idea, you know, this whole election campaign that Premier Notley was, you know, destroying Alberta. In fact, our funding for pipeline campaigns and oil sands campaigns and climate change campaigns dropped to the floor after Notley announced that climate plan.
00:42:59
Speaker
Because funders looked at it and they were like, oh, well Trudeau says Canada's back in Paris and Premier Notley has a climate plan. Okay, let's put more money in the US and India and China. And all the groups in Canada who are working on these issues got less money. And meanwhile, he's attacking Notley. So he announces this $30 million war room and this
00:43:18
Speaker
essentially undemocratic inquiry that's going to haul people in front of an inquiry panel if they are concerned about climate change or are fighting the potential of oil spills or the billions of dollars in liabilities from the toxic cleanup that the companies won't pay. And somehow that means you're anti-Albertan. And now we're back on the radar screen. I've gotten more calls of people interested from around the world who want to help build the campaign up than ever before.
00:43:48
Speaker
You know, they think they can bury us in all these processes and that they can destroy us by burying us in this inquiry. But what they don't realize is that we're seeds. We grow when you try and bury us.
00:44:10
Speaker
And to come back to the ethical oil argument too, there was just a story in the news yesterday that Fort Mackay is taking the government to court over the fact that there is oil sands development that's close to Moose Lake, contrary to an agreement that they signed with a former premier, right? We've got Beaver Creek First Nation, who is taking a Supreme Court case forward that got government funded, that their treaty rights are being abrogated by all of the oil and gas development on their traditional territories, right?
00:44:40
Speaker
We are not treating the treaties with the respect that they deserve, and when it comes to ethical oil, we do have to keep that in mind.
00:44:48
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, there's the violation of treaty rights, there's this. And I mean, that is not just in Alberta, right? I mean, the federal government, the BC government, the Alberta government, we are taking Indigenous people to court all over this country. That's lately what we call reconciliation. You know, we use taxpayers' dollars to fight Indigenous nations who are fighting for their rights.
00:45:11
Speaker
And most of the time, those indigenous nations are standing up and saying, they're fighting for clean water, right? They're fighting for clean air. They're fighting because the ocean is acidified and the orcas are dying out. And because they have a different grounding, if you live,
00:45:31
Speaker
on the land, you understand what's happening to the land in a much different way. You're connected to where your food and water comes from. And it's not just the lawsuits though. The fact is that a lot of people in remote communities in Northern Alberta are having to fly their water in because they can't drink their water anymore. They're told that they're not allowed to fish in Lake Athabasca anymore. So imagine you live
00:45:59
Speaker
in a remote community where you go to a store and a chicken is 80 bucks because it's so expensive to get food there, but you're now told don't eat the moose, don't fish because those fish are toxic. That moose meat is toxic because we now have a trillion liters of toxic sludge in unlined pits in the center of this province. It's the largest sludge ponds in the world.
00:46:29
Speaker
They're unlined. Of the three largest dams in the world, the first is the Three Gorges Dam in China. The second two are rammed earth dams in Alberta in the oil sands. And those rammed earth dams aren't even lined. They're just rammed earth, and then we pour toxic sludge in them, and it's leaking. The government's own report says that it's leaking. It's leaking into the rivers, it's leaking into the land, and it's showing up in the fish and on the plants and the meat. And so then people are eating it.
00:46:58
Speaker
And we say that it's ethical oil. It's not okay. And again, the oil companies know how to fix this. They know how to do dry tailings and they're not putting it into place because again, it's too expensive and they don't want to. Well, I mean, let's take that.
00:47:14
Speaker
anecdote and transition to one that's even better, slavery abolition. So this is a very bad segue, but it's something that I do want to bring up and something that I think we've even seen here in Alberta, right? But let me set up the premise.
00:47:30
Speaker
Slavery abolition in every other country except the US didn't come about because of the persuasiveness of the arguments of abolitionists. There was no doubt there was a lot of activism, there was a lot of work. The final legislative like slavery is over thing happened through something called emancipation compensation. Eventually governments just paid out slave owners for the value of their slaves and slavery was abolished.
00:47:53
Speaker
As depressing as that is, and that that was the end of slavery, we've started to see the beginnings of that here in other places that here in Alberta, when we phased out coal, there was large payouts to the billionaire Southern family and TransAlta and essentially companies that owned these coal assets that were going to be retired sooner than they were originally conceived to have been operating.
00:48:22
Speaker
And that conversation of like, how do we, is that the way forward? Is emancipation compensation, but for like climate change, is that where we're moving forward? And how do we make sure that it doesn't, all of our money just doesn't go to like the oil billionaires who control these assets, right?
00:48:41
Speaker
I really truly believe that there should be equity and compensation negotiations at both a national and an international level. That places that are going to have the biggest struggle to transform their economies need to be supported.
00:49:03
Speaker
And that happens to a certain extent at the UN, at the UN climate change negotiations, but right now it's mostly looking at developing economies and how much they need for clean tech and how to help them with emissions reduction. But we need global and national negotiations about keeping oil and gas in the ground.
00:49:24
Speaker
And it's why next week, actually, I'll be announcing a new global steering committee that I've created with academics and lawyers from around the world. We're going to be launching a call for a global fossil fuel nonproliferation treaty.
00:49:43
Speaker
And as part of those treaty negotiations, we're arguing that there should be those compensation, that should be that compensation. So yes, should Alberta be getting some help and support to diversify its economy and make sure no one is left behind?
00:50:00
Speaker
Absolutely. But that should be going to the Albertan people. Not to big oil companies. Sounds like you're making an argument for nationalizing the oil companies. Well, at least I'm going to make that happen. No. What I'm saying is that we have to stop helping them stay alive, and we have to make sure that families are kept whole.
00:50:17
Speaker
So there is no question that we are facing down, in likely our lifetimes, the end of the oil era. And we know that we need to wind down oil and gas production over time.
00:50:33
Speaker
And so that means that we have to plan for that. And if that means that other provinces and our federal government have to help Alberta plan for that, then it should be. But you know what? Those companies don't own the oil. We do. And in fact, in lots of cases, it's unceded indigenous land.
00:50:52
Speaker
My point is that they don't own the oil and we have to stop both subsidizing them and giving them heavy compensation measures so that they can stay alive longer and we have to ensure though that any money that's going for payouts in the climate era goes to the people who are going to be diversifying the economy and protecting communities and not protecting polluters.
Transitioning from Fossil Fuels and Historical Parallels
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah, like the Alberta example again is extremely illustrative, right? Like we had billions of dollars, maybe a billion. I can't remember the exact dollar amount go to these companies that owned these coal-fired power plants, but I think there was like 60 to 80 million dollars that got set aside for the thousands of coal workers in this province. And now that very funding is under threat from this brutal austerity class war budget that Jason Kenney has introduced.
00:51:43
Speaker
And so we have to be aware that like when we were talking about payouts and stuff, yes, like the workers need to be taken care of first, Murray Edwards last, right?
00:51:54
Speaker
Well, and let's talk about small businesses. Let's talk about other industries. You know, it's ultimately in lots of ways a failure of imagination. You know, just because it's the way that the economy happens now and it's the majority, you know, what we know doesn't mean it's what needs to be in the future, right? And so we have to actually start looking at where do we need to put money and intellectual capital.
00:52:24
Speaker
Where do we need to put more research? Where do we need to put more planning to plan for a whole future, for a cleaner future and a safer future?
00:52:35
Speaker
that that will mean that there has to be some transfer of funds within Canada and globally it'll mean that there's a number of economies like you know Venezuela what is 80 90 dependent on oil you know of course there has to be some adjustment for that. I personally think that globally we should be looking to the most important places for biodiversity and water storage because
00:53:00
Speaker
It's not just climate change that we're facing, but we're actually facing major ecological collapse right now. The ecosystem services, the UN has announced years ago that ecosystem services, the air we breathe, the water we drink, that support human well-being are now in question.
00:53:16
Speaker
of whether they can in the future. And actually Alberta is incredibly important from a biodiversity perspective and from a clean water perspective. Globally important. Billions of North America's songbirds nest here in the boreal. You see a bird in the backyard in California, they nest here in Alberta. And I think that needs to be recognized that we all need to
00:53:39
Speaker
help ensure that we protect Alberta in many ways. And so that leads to some of these agreements that have to be made across the country, and maybe then Albertans won't feel so alone.
00:53:55
Speaker
Well, I think I'll remind everyone, too, that the only place where there wasn't this emancipation compensation was the United States, except in a very minor way. And there was a massive and bloody civil war that killed hundreds of thousands of people. So yeah, let's consider that history. Finally, finally, I've been very heartened by Greta Thunberg and the mass mobilizations that we've seen
00:54:23
Speaker
And I live in Edmonton. We saw 10,000 people, 12,000 people in the streets in Alberta, which is not nothing. It's the most people I've ever seen in the streets in my life. And these mass mobilizations, I think, are extremely important for climate action.
Greta Thunberg and the Power of Youth Activism
00:54:42
Speaker
But I think the tendency of a lot of centrists and liberals is to look at this and be like, oh, well, the kids are handling it. The kids are doing all right.
00:54:50
Speaker
And we've seen this before. In the 90s, kids were just as pissed off about climate as Greta Thunberg and everyone else is. But they got sidetracked into littering and recycling and shit like that. And it's how do we build the kind of cross-generational solidarity that's needed to take the energy from these youth climate strikes and turn it into real gains in the struggle?
00:55:15
Speaker
Well, I think first of all, they did start. The student strike started because of the students, right? And well, Greta sitting there alone, that famous picture, and then many others all over the world just deciding to strike from school. But now they're much bigger than that. Now they're climate strikes. And regardless of your age, I would encourage people to get out there in your community because it matters.
00:55:40
Speaker
If it's not seen as a problem, if politicians don't hear from you, if they don't see people marching,
00:55:50
Speaker
They won't act, right? And social change isn't linear. I think this is our tipping point moment on climate because it's one of those moments where everything is coming together. We now have the technology to solve the problem. We didn't before, not every problem. We're still gonna need oil and gas for some things, absolutely. Can we now with existing technology cut oil and gas production? Probably by about 80% globally we can.
00:56:17
Speaker
And so we have the technology we need. We have the finance increasingly that we need. $11 trillion has divested over the last four years from fossil fuels. Major banks are now saying that they're going to invest in clean energy. Major banks around the world, by the way, and insurance companies are saying they won't invest in oil sands because of how high carbon it is.
00:56:43
Speaker
And we now have popular attention because of the kids, because the kids are scared. And so that's a tipping point moment. And those are the moments when change happens quickly. You know, you grind on issues for a long, long time and nothing change, and then they tip. You've all seen it in many different issues. And so I think we've reached that tipping point on climate change. I think things are going to start happening very quickly now, and that's why we have to make sure that Canada and Alberta are not left behind.
00:57:14
Speaker
But I think it means that we have to be as courageous as the kids. We have to get out there in the streets. We have to stop thinking about ourselves just as consumers. It's about what we buy. No, it's not about a better light bulb. It's about a better law. So we have to be writing to our MLAs and our MPs and remembering that they work for us. Yeah, it's about collective struggle, right? We don't get anywhere unless we show up.
00:57:42
Speaker
That's right. And look at what happened with Greta. The great thing about courage is it's contagious. Have the courage. Have the courage to have that hard conversation at the Christmas dinner table. Have the courage to walk out there on the streets like the kids are doing. Even if you work in the oil and gas industry, more importantly, if you work in the oil and gas industry. Because it's not about feeling bad that you currently work in the industry. It's about what you're planning for the future.
00:58:11
Speaker
It's important to remember that even in Alberta, even in this place that is viewed as this heartland of conservatism and pro-oil sentiment, that what we are talking about today is essentially extremely popular. You are not alone. The ideas we're talking about now are shared by your neighbours, your co-workers, your colleagues, people you just pass on the street.
00:58:31
Speaker
The polling numbers support this. When you talk about transition to clean energy, these things are like, everyone is like, yes, let's do it. The people and groups that are holding this back need to be defeated. There is going to be a political struggle here simply because we like something and we want it to happen. It doesn't mean it will happen. But it's also important to realize that there are folks who are working against this as well.
Political Response and the Importance of Activism
00:58:52
Speaker
And you have to realize that these people have to be identified and defeated.
00:58:57
Speaker
Well, and the fact is, regardless of who your premier is, politicians respond. They respond to money and votes. And they'll respond if they see thousands of people in the streets. They'll respond if they hear from people. So don't just organize around elections. You've got to organize in between elections too.
00:59:16
Speaker
And I've been working on these issues for longer than I care to admit and climate change for a long time. And I mean, who would have thought that Arnold Schwarzenegger was going to be our climate hero in California or in Merkel in Germany, right? First of all, people can have their own climate reckoning moment because there's lots of ways to access this issue. And second of all, they'll care.
00:59:43
Speaker
Even Premier Kenny cares about how many people are worried about an issue and how many people he's hearing from because he's a politician and he's going to be counting up numbers. All right. Well, let's leave it there as a poor. Thank you so much for coming on the progress report. A round of applause. Thank you for having me.
01:00:08
Speaker
And thanks so much to all of you for coming to this room and watching us talk. I really do appreciate it. This is our very first ever live podcast. We came all the way to Calgary to do it. We brought in Zippora, so I'm very grateful for the people that showed up. So thank you so much for coming. Zippora, it's the end of the show. How can people follow your work? What do people need to know about what's coming up? Plug your pluggables right now.
01:00:28
Speaker
All right. Stand.Earth. That's the website of the organization that I work with, Stand.Earth. That's where you can see all of our campaigns. We're running pretty exciting campaigns right now globally on the shipping industry, on the fashion industry, actually, a climate campaign on the fashion industry, a number of different campaigns. How can people find you on Twitter? That's the most important thing. On Twitter, it's at Sepora, T-Z-E-P-O-R-A-H, just at Sepora, and also Sepora Berman. I have a public Facebook page. You can follow me there as well. Sweet.
01:00:58
Speaker
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01:01:23
Speaker
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01:01:47
Speaker
If you have any notes, comments, things you think I need to hear about, and you're just listening to this, you're not in the room, because if you're in the room, you can just come up and talk to me afterwards. You can find me on Twitter, at Duncan Kinney, and you can reach me by email, at Duncan K, at progressuberta.ca. Thanks so much to Cosmic Family Communist for the amazing theme. Thanks for listening, thanks for being here, and goodbye.