Transcript
Speaker: Popularity Popularity Popularity contest
Speaker: Hello, my name is Kate Sarp. And I'm Sam Lane. And this is the Popularity Contest podcast. It's a podcast about trends. ah And that is our new introduction. Yes. thing same Original Sam Lane production. I think that you did a fantastic job, Sam. Thank you. It was punchy. It was of the time. um And I really think that that sort of sets the bar for...
Speaker: you know, the quality of... the show that the listeners are about to experience. ah First shout -out at the top, Media Puzzle, new resource, because... ah interview these guys and they mentioned they use a lot of like found media on it and they had this site.
Speaker: Um... there's various sites that do this but you can like look in keywords and like Get free to use. like audio oh So that's what I get to do the popularity contest stuff. like I was just trolling through random YouTube clips. So very cool. Good record. A lot of stuff on it. Also, shout out. We're recording this. Otis, my dog, is sitting on Kate's lap. Basil, my other dog, is sitting at my feet because he likes his bed more.
Speaker: Otis, do you have anything to say? um that To share with the people?
Speaker: he's cool He's got nothing. Basil? yeah
Speaker: like
Speaker: He licked the mic. And Otis is now licking my hand. That's beautiful. But we coffee and caked before this. Yes, we did. That was beautiful. We coffeeed and caked. In a glorious winter's sunny day. Yeah. Some carrot cake for you. Yep. A pound of chocolate for me. We're riding high off the Oz Alert. Yep. Yesterday. Which I didn't think was going to happen, but by God, there were so many. Idiots online. Comparing this to like the Millennium blog ah Bug or something. um I saw someone genuinely wearing a tinfoil hat.
Speaker: And I am just so disappointed. I'm really disappointed. I thought it was so funny. You could go on any community Facebook group after OzAlert. happened And it would be like...
Speaker: Anyone else feel different? Like 20 comments. Like half the people are like, ah you know, shit posting being like, yeah, my my nanopods have been activated. Fuck, it was funny though. it was it's my covert vaccine i felt you know it was like all of my my my nanobots were like being like magnetized towards my phone when it was going off.
Speaker: Um. But. Yeah, you know what? Okay. Like I guess it's important. um And some people need to get over it. But also I understand the argument.
Speaker: I always understand the argument of like... The government's in my phone. No, but like some people... have a secret phone for like safety reasons. That's the one thing that I was like, Oh my God, this is scary. Like if you're like hiding a secret phone, say you're a victim of domestic violence, like that would have been insane. But it's funny that the people made the most noise about it. like
Speaker: The cookers. Who have nothing to lose. yeah you are You own the crystals shop in Mullumbimby. You're good, dog. And you use coconut oil instead of sunscreen. What the fuck's wrong with you? That's beautiful. yeah um Well, my update is ah I've joined the app Field, which has been of great amusement to...
Speaker: my friends because They've... come to see Yeah. you know it's a different side of the dating app i'd say it's halfway between grinder uh, and hinge. And...
Speaker: I don't know. It's just like there's poly functionality built in. You could start a group chat. And you can see other people's partners as well. You can see other people's partners. Gone is the time of... I mean, we've we've gotten rid of the facade of you know what public and private is, right? like
Speaker: ah It's pretty funny. I'm enjoying i'm enjoying myself. ah Look, more to come. it's just We did a pilot episode on on leaving dating apps, and then I was told about this one. I was like, look, let's see if anything's changed. At the end of the day, you still have the same fatigue, but having the idea that you could be added to a group chat in a dating app is pretty hilarious funny. im not really I haven't explored poly stuff at all. to be completely frank, but the clientele on field is definitely like,
Speaker: less normie than hinge which is nice yeah a good change some interesting people um that's uh that's about that's my updates also yeah just doing lots of radio as well yeah i know you did basically all of last week morning yeah i did so i got to do some dr carl so i should have asked dr carl about cigarettes oh yeah we should ask this is relevant so in case this is your first time listening to the pod and it probably is this is our life whatever very early episode
Speaker: We analyze why things are popular. We ask... Why? Why are they popular? What does it say about our society that this thing is resurging in popularity? Today's topic, say it with me, Kate.
Speaker: Cigarettes. So. ah Cigarettes are back. I don't know if you've noticed this. There have been... Not least because of the strew the the streak of gang -related violence across the across major... Cities in Australia. Due to the black market cigarette trade. The cigarettes, the the illegal tobacco. ah But more generally, ah people are smoking more of our generation, Gen Z.
Speaker: here's ah Here's a stat. Public health nonprofit Truth Initiatives found that tobacco but depictions in the 15 most popular we are streaming shows among 15 to 24 -year -olds has risen by... 110 % in, this was in 2021 and 2022. So it's in the media. Yeah, it's accelerated since then. ah There are accounts like Sigfluences. Are you familiar with Sigfluences on Instagram? When I had a public Instagram page, I was familiar with it.
Speaker: So, Sigfluences basically is an account where they post... whatever celebrity du jour is, I don't know. Well, I mean, when Brat was around, it was a lot of Charlie. Yeah, it was a lot of Charlie smoking cigs. Dua Lipa and her husband at their wedding. Yeah, every single big celebrity is now within three months.
Speaker: They're on Sigfluences. Heated rivalry. Both Connor Story um and what's the other guy? Hudson Williams. Hudson Williams. Within like six months on both on Sigfluences of them being like, oh my God, welcome to the Sig nation. Yeah. ah So it's back in a big way. And that's not only due to like the structural factors of like.
Speaker: at least in Australia, the proliferation of illegal tobacco, but... Our contention is this is saying something about... Hashtag our society. uh right now particularly because kate and i grew up uh we were probably the first generation to live in the post cigarette world where it was like very we live in a world where it was very heavily regulated in australia i think uh and so yeah
Speaker: I wonder if it was... like It was heavily regulated, but like that's what we were told it was. Yeah, I guess I don't know what it was like in the 2010s. Well, I'm saying like you know you get older and you realize actually like nothing changed, right? The stats are saying that more and more people are smoking kind of in moderation. Yeah.
Speaker: The stats are in moderate. Like, I think this is what we're talking about. We shouldn't get it twisted. There are my chain smokers out there. There are my nicotine addicts out there. I mean, but now, like... It's classy to, well, it's like chain smoking isn't.
Speaker: as Like. as much of a social sort of like outcast thing because now you just sit there and you vape. And that's chain smoking. That's chain smoking. What is more in now is the proliferation of people who otherwise lead quite a quote -unquote healthy lifestyle, but will have a dart or two of a weekend sort of thing.
Speaker: And that's really interesting. ah because there's obviously been all this work done in public health around the world to curb the rise of cigarettes and nicotine more generally, but... Doesn't seem to have worked. ah So...
Speaker: We are going to start with our journey with nicotine. yeah Because we each have our own journey with nicotine. Being Gen Zed. We've lived through regulation, different forms, so...
Speaker: ah Do you want to start maybe with when was the first time you smoked a ah cigarette or had any nicotine? Yeah, so look. I would like to say that I grew up overseas. Hi, my name is Kate. I grew up overseas. Not sure if you know that. I tell everybody.
Speaker: um in Brunei to be specific. And you can buy a pack of... Era Menthols for $2. Well, you used to be able to. She knows the brand. um And why would you know that brand?
Speaker: Because it was you know the the cheapest cigarette in Malaysia. And what were you doing with those cigarettes? You weren't sm smoking them, were you? I was smoking them the first time I smoked a cigarette. I think I was 13 years old.
Speaker: Start them young. Yeah, well, it's, you know, I got into some some bad influences. um There was nothing else to do besides like go to people's houses and like drink underage, which, you know, I got into some altercations with my parents about like, ah obviously, um they're not stupid. They figured that one out. But um Yeah, it kind of like, and then everyone had vapes, but there weren' any there wasn't nicotine in the vapes in like the...
Speaker: big box ones that you would, like, fill with the juice. That was just, like, for for the love of the ghost. um Yeah, getting into vaping because you love ripping clouds. that was ah That was a pure time. I remember the hashtag Vapenash. Yeah, Vapenash. That was amazing. um And then I, yeah, I just. That was high school. That was high school. A lot of cheap cigs. A lot of cheap cigs. And then when I moved to Australia.
Speaker: I was like, oh my God, vapes are so readily available here. I just like... I would. you know. Like, yeah, you would just go to the tobacconist to get a $15 small, like 500 puff little lychee I get.
Speaker: when they were like a single color with the cartoon on the front. um Those were the days. Those were the days. Maybe it was an HQD. Let's not get... We don't need know the specific brands, bro. Yeah, sorry. Well, I mean, i'm I'm the opposite because I grew up mostly in...
Speaker: australia At least from from like when I can remember this. The big thing was I moved back to this. like I remember. Moving back to Australia in 2008. And the plain packaging stuff happened shortly thereafter. Like the big, one of the big cases, huge victory against ah Big Tobacco.
Speaker: uh... Plain packaging introduced on cigarettes, taxed very high. And the first thing I remember about cigarettes were the incredibly graphic ads that were showed on television.
Speaker: Uh... about what smoking cigarettes do to you. uh and just like you know diseased spleens and like the insane stuff that would be on the packaging like it was not only plain packaging it'd be like packaging that has like a Wicked. dead person on it yeah being like this is you r .i .p brian so that was that was me during high school and i i didn't i didn't smoke i didn't like find it interesting no one in my family like Smoked or anything. So I never I never did that ah
Speaker: But I do remember we we are of the same age that... the When things changed were... The introduction... of vapes. So this is kind of... It's interesting. So this was, you know, in and around 10 years after the plane packaging, in Australia at least, and this is...
Speaker: Same around the rest of the world. 2019 -ish. vapes really become readily available. um Kind of black market. They have insane amounts of nicotine.
Speaker: And a couple things happen. is I know a lot of people who... initially got onto vapes because They.
Speaker: were trying to get off cigarettes and it was like seen as an easier way but then it turned out it had a more nicotine but maybe less other bad stuff in it we don't really know what are in these vapes to be honest it could be uh you know glass cleaner or whatever the hell and then some people just like had never smoked at all and they were like oh flavored air this is yeah flavored air yummy uh and i remember i did a puff of one of the early vape i just vapes and i just couldn't i didn't like it i it's way too sweet um And.
Speaker: Then there was the age of... The vape. Which was just so insane because it was before everyone really else had cottoned on. And so in schools and in uni -tutes around the world and, you know...
Speaker: Vaping was so big because you could just do a little ghost one. It didn't leave any really residue in the air. And you get so much nicotine. Yeah. And, you know, if anything, it would just smell like you had spritzed on some really cheap perfume. Yeah. um and that was even that was at worst like at worst being in an inside in a small
Speaker: Yeah. in closed space if you're outside it didn't matter which was kind of nice because obviously the big thing that i didn't like about cigarettes growing up was the the smell of like if you when you're a kid it's like really harsh this didn't have anything of that so it was fine if you had a friend who was vaping like it didn't really matter and and That went on for a bit, and then what happened was, in 2023 or so...
Speaker: I'm gonna call it... I called this, in my ins and outs, I think, of that year, I called the Great Dot Migration. and I'm a goddamn, I'm fucking Nostradamus because I was exactly right. Vapes started getting weirder and more expensive before they were like flavors. Then you were getting like, I mean, I knew it was over when people had the Alibabas.
Speaker: Oh, the big gold bars. Big gold bars. That was the moment where I was like, we are going to move back to cigs. And then right under there came illegal cigarettes started filtering into the market in and around that time. And people realizing how much nicotine were in vapes.
Speaker: return to cig so a lot of people were like smoking cigarettes got off it by vaping and then realized then we realized that vapes had so much more nicotine and we went back to cigarettes and now we're in our current meta where it's like the people who are are the old chain smokers I would say are vaping. To get their nicotine fix? Mm -hmm. uh...
Speaker: But it's more common that a lot of people are just having one or two. Little ciggies. Uh... of a weekend that's kind of where we're at illegal cigarettes absolutely flooding the market in australia um And ah around the world, they're obviously much more cheap.
Speaker: To get cigarettes. Yeah, well, I am. Yeah. when i was in america and i will say i've had a few cigarettes in my time i have like okay like I buy like a one pack a year as a like in,
Speaker: Usually when it's cold and I usually donate most of them, but I've had a couple. Yeah. No, sometimes I like on a night out, you know, I might have an Essie and then Sam's like, oh, Kate, could I have one? And then he has one puff and he realizes actually not tonight. I don't want to have it. Or like I vomit everywhere. yeah Like I'm known to like, there's been several instances in my life. Like I just can't hack it. I'll have a cig and I'll just feel very nauseous.
Speaker: chunder everywhere yeah so i'm i think i'm kind of blessed in that regard that no matter what it's never going to be the most appealing thing for me so there will be other things that like we act do crack Your buddy will tolerate crack.
Speaker: Where we are right now is we are in. A cigarette renaissance, I would say. among young people. They have never been more culturally relevant and cool. ah There's a couple things I want to shout out. I mean...
Speaker: You were bringing up, we already mentioned Sigfluences, which is an Instagram account that... post celebrity smoking cigs but you wanted to talk about um The... Some sim. I mean it's in the world of the memes.
Speaker: I fucking hate that I said that, you know, like the feeling Chinese in my life. Oh, well, yes. So there are also people who review cigarettes. There either is an app or some sort of platform on one of the social medias, one of them things um where they like rank cigarettes um and specifically Chinese cigarettes.
Speaker: Because there's just so many flavors. I mean, they're all in Europe as well, but I guess it's the novelty that they're coming from China and people have this, like, you know, everything leads back to Edward Said's Orientalism. Yeah, your Orient, like the the meme of like very Chinese time. and Yeah. A lot of that is like having a Sing Tao.
Speaker: And smoking a cheap so Chinese cig is kind of where we're at. Check out the Blind Boy episode ah on that where he does like a double Orientalism where he talks about... he's an Irish guy he's an Irish like And he talks about having a mural of him on an Irish bar in Chongqing.
Speaker: and how it's kind of double Orientalism because they're kind of reverse orientalizing the Irish when he wants to go there to kind of low -key orientalized and have a Singtao and a cheap Chinese cigarette. It was beautiful. But there is this moment right now, yeah, very Chinese time in my life, reviewing Chinese cigarettes and, of course, Jacob fucking Jones. Jacob fucking Jones.
Speaker: Come with me to go day drink in the park and chain smoke cigarettes at 3 p .m. He's like the... ah bizarro version of Review Bra. Or um he's like a more mature version of Matty Smokes. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I remember Matty Smokes. He's a car reviewer, but he he literally all he does is like day drink and smoke cigs. And this dude, I mean, it rockets up the charts because he's so intense with it. Come with me today.
Speaker: Mm -hmm when I smoke 10 cigarettes at 3 p .m. in a public park. He's great. I love him. And then also, you know, he'll respond to comments being like, oh, what's the perfect cigarette for this situation? Or like, if my wife just dumped me, like, what cigarettes would you recommend I smoke? um And it's almost like he's he's sort of a cigarette sommelier.
Speaker: um If there's a water sommelier, I think that you're allowed to have a cigarette sommelier. I think that that's beautiful. um It really just shows that like you can be. a expert in any given field.
Speaker: we I mean, the the modern society, the influencer, micro -influencer, we have sig... They're literally sigfluencers. Sigfluencers. But, um I mean... There's so much...
Speaker: There's so many more cigarettes in the media. This is being borne out in the data. I mentioned the thing from the Truth Institute before from data from 2022. Like. What's going on here? Because there's been... years of public policy across the world trying to get out Um.
Speaker: You know cigarettes and and nicotine From being... in our public sphere. But... Despite that, it's more back than ever. Like I was talking to a friend about Sigfluences, the account the other night.
Speaker: um And he was like, surely this is a psyop. Like, surely this is being funded by Big Tobacco. As far as I could find, it's not. It's run by someone who, for the love of the game, loves it. This thing has 100 ,000 followers and definitely, uh...
Speaker: is like... something popular among the kind of more alternative crowds and friends that I have. Like, they love this thing. The guy who runs it is a guy called Jarrett Oviatt, and he...
Speaker: I mean... He loves camel blues. Uh... And he just... He loves cigarettes. He... He he loves cigarettes. Addison Rae is smoking cigarettes. You know what I mean? And she's also a Pilates princess. You know what I mean? It's like people are doing both. There's this guy I love who's a cycling influencer guy i called Jude on Road. And he has a thing like in in terms of the ah yeah instead of the Garmin mount or whatever that you put on your like bike computer.
Speaker: He has an ashtray. It's beautiful. And he like smokes his cig after having like ridden like two hours. You know? like ah You gotta have your smoker. You gotta have your smoker. But like, I think that's so...
Speaker: We're trying to dive into this. like How are they back? Against all the odds. Against all odds, they're back. Okay, I... think you'll Let's have the smokers take. Okay, obviously there's like... Silence. An Etsy smoker is speaking. Okay, to be fair, now it's just, you know, on on the odd occasion. Um, Um, But yeah, I think that like it's a couple of reasons. Obviously.
Speaker: um there's sort of like uh an oral fixation aspect to do some um Barcelona chair psychology. Yeah, this ADHD generation needs their fidget toy. Yeah, it's something to do. And it's like... an ah You know, there's that joke by this Australian comedian where she's like, yeah, it's sort of like an excuse. Otis just went for Kate's crotch, you little freak.
Speaker: We're recording this, my dog is... on Kate's lap, but he's being very silly. He just loves me so much. um Yeah, like she has this joke where she is like, it's the only acceptable way to.
Speaker: excuse yourself for a couple minutes and like leave the room and go stand outside and get some fresh air ironically um because you're smoking whatever but um you know now people instead of like smoking or doing whatever we've like just have a fidget toy it's literally something to do with your hands to the to the attention deficit yeah um it's like and okay well i don't know what to do i'm gonna go smoke a cigarette
Speaker: Actually. why don't you go play with your pain stim fidget toy? And like, that's the same thing. Or, um, Just... Yeah, like people replace it with chewing gum.
Speaker: um But at the same time, it does... Bring people together. Because it is sort of like a ah social thing that you go out and do. you like go talk to to like -minded cigarette smokers in the smoking area. Yes, the philosopher the philosopher's corner. Yeah, and I think it's like ah an act like a deliberate rebellion, right?
Speaker: Like. in so many words, because you've been told no so many times. And like, this thing is bad for you where I guess you're sort of like, Because you can't control anything else in your life because it's just...
Speaker: So. like unpredictable. What? You can do is control your health and, like, what you do and... Sometimes that's smoking a cigarette or it like makes you feel adult because it's like I have chosen to do this thing and I'm allowed to do it. Where it's like people, it's the same way of I live alone so I can have ice cream for breakfast. that's And do you?
Speaker: No, you don't. I had sweet potato and yogurt this morning. That's not ice cream. Stop. Yesterday I had Yochi for dinner. I had Yochi for dinner last night. Ah. Oh, hell yeah. It's healthy. This is it's frozen yogurt. Exactly. But yeah, a lot of it's funny that a lot of those reasons are the same old reasons. Mm. That's what's what I find interesting about this whole thing. It didn't work. We haven't quashed them out. People are still drawn to them for the same reasons.
Speaker: And I think chief in part... That's... Because... they still look really fucking cool, right right? So wait, before we maybe get into some structural reasons, should we, you know...
Speaker: it will will It will kind of, this is our intermission one. okay Can you give me your top three? A cigarette. situations Top three types of cigarettes. All right. And I don't mean like menthols versus... blur No, I'm going to do... i won't st Situations. i won't I'm going to do like...
Speaker: actual moments in my life with a cigarette sure so first one sort of April 2020 chain -smoking berry pop. cigarettes with my friends.
Speaker: Um, Out. out the side, out like... on her pool deck. um until 2 o 'clock in the morning drinking straight Absolute. Nothing else to do. We were all very...
Speaker: you know depressed and not sure what was going on in the world that was a lot of fun that was a community thing we also learned that one of my friends had a foot fetish that night too oh hey yo ah He's never going to listen to this, I hope.
Speaker: And... um Another one. would be all. smoking a Vogue from a pink packet. um ah at a marina. in Calabria. um Porto Bellaro.
Speaker: In September last year, that was really special. I was even like down to the flip -flops. down to the thongs that I was wearing on my feet. That was so spectacular. And then probably when I moved out of my family home and I smoked a cigarette outside of my my very my own apartment.
Speaker: um for the first time. You know, because like I could smoke outside. Because no one could stop you. No one was going to stop me. Well. Let's jump in then to... The...
Speaker: I guess that some of the structural factors here, which is bad regulation. Vapes were allowed to proffer. and Sorry, Prosper. in this time like when you were going you know during covert and stuff Uh...
Speaker: Because... These tobacco companies were able to... latch on. To the inherent need, the inherent, like... human need for like stimulants and nicotine and just package it up in different things uh this happens with zins this happens with so many things something i remember watching with formula one which a lot of people got into during covid is that a lot of the weird sponsors you see On the side of Formula 1 cars. Were actually like.
Speaker: Rebranded cigarette. like all shell companies for big tobacco, like Philip Morris and stuff like that. Yeah. And they have like the sort of that like weird electronic. one you put like the butts in it or something no this one is like literally just a fake shell company but that it directs you to like smoking but it's the same way that like that's why they advertise like zero alcohol beer because you're still then advertising the beer and and an alcohol but they're just like don't drink and drive so it's it's the same thing where it's like these companies
Speaker: have always found a way to fight because they have grown so, so, so, so powerful that they do have the means and the want to jump on any minor trend, which is why I thought Sigfluences was a psy -op as an Instagram account. It's not, but... And maybe we'll find out one day. Maybe we'll find out that he was being paid by. Big tobacco. but With the yeah vapes and stuff, they were able to...
Speaker: you know skirt around weak government regulation in places to... That was regulating cigarette, but not necessarily nicotine, and able to sell basically to teenagers. profit on the fact that they're really just, like, in need of constant stimulus in a way that no generation has been, which means that, like, just like you have the instant gratification of scrolling on your phone, you have the instant ah nicotine gratification of hidden advertising. Well, yeah, and your brain's still developing at that time too, right? So you don't know any better. you Talk to me about your first ever vape hits.
Speaker: um um What did they feel like? Euphoria? I mean, like... The ones that didn't have any nicotine in them, I think it was just because all the older kids were doing it. And you want to seem cool, right? Of course. I've always wanted to seem cool. I don't want to seem like a fucking bitch loser. right um because i'm not that i'm hardcore i'm not i'm really cool But.
Speaker: Yeah, I... I think that I liked that. The vaping, it was convenient and it was like... something to do. um I could literally do it like.
Speaker: in the bathroom, lying in my bed. Um, And it was just really, it was really easy. Yeah. I always love asking vapers how soon they hit their vape after they wake up. Like wake up.
Speaker: yeah At my peak. It was like as soon as I woke up. Yeah, I know i know people like this. I mean, not a gentleman doesn't kiss and tell, but... I have known... I have shared a bed with... with people in the past who have vaped.
Speaker: Mm hmm. Um, and I'm talking about Otis, my dog, of course, and loves vaping. That's who I'm talking about. And I always did ask them this. And sometimes they'd reach for that thing first thing in the morning. And it was kind of, I mean, it was very interesting. Like, just being like, how long are they going to have before they reach for that vape? Yeah. Very, very interesting to me. But that's the first thing, like, yeah, the bad regulation in Australia. You've had...
Speaker: off to the plane packaging. ah lots of illegal tobacco now black market classic thing similarly to like how prohibition worked like So many illegal cigarettes you can get around and they look beautiful in their original packaging, no plain packaging. And then overseas, you don't necessarily have that problem.
Speaker: with cigarettes like i think a lot more people smoke in europe and things because oh yeah in bosnia you can still smoke indoors exactly and a lot of like that that's my fellow yugoslavs just us but like In Australia, like ah nicotine consumption has gone up 40 % between 2017 and 2025, according to the ABS, despite population and growth rising rising by only 14%.
Speaker: Whoa. Yeah, right? And it's illegal tobacco. It's illegal tobacco. It's... Whatever area you're talking about, the massive tentacles of big tobacco find their way to get around whatever regulation, whether it's by vapes, whether it's by zins. you know, whether it's bytes.
Speaker: i don't know i don't want to say they're doing a illegal tobacco but illegal tobacco does come in And so that's kind of... part Part one. To me. Yeah. Um, But part two...
Speaker: is kind of coming around to like the rebellion idea but i i think it's like a specific rebellion Of our age. Because it's not like the rebellion. Of like the 1960s.
Speaker: Where it was like a... i mean it' still When people started doing hallucinogenics? Yeah, it's it's not the kind of countercultural rebelling against a society that's like necessarily too straight -laced, although that can still be a part of it.
Speaker: My thing... of why this is interesting is that Who we're talking about here isn't chain smokers. It's it's people who otherwise... Have healthy lives and are pretty you know well -adjusted and chic and cool and interesting and whatever and they just have one or two on the weekend They have one or two You know, it's not every night. And my idea about why this is, because it makes no sense if you're like that.
Speaker: maybe healthy or or focused on your health. that. you'd smoke a couple cigarettes. My thing is that like. it's a reaction to the kind of Doomer. It's a Doomerist. It's a Doomer.
Speaker: reaction People are pessimistic about the state of the world and the impact that their individual actions can have. And they have turned to cigarettes because it's the easiest one.
Speaker: To. To do. Because... I mean, I think back to 2017. Did you... It was it felt like the it was so much more optimistic, like, to, like...
Speaker: work on your you know do individual acts to like make the world a better place yeah like you know reusing bags and not using plastic straws anymore and like I've done it. And it literally has.
Speaker: you know, I don't even think about. throwing away a plastic bag or something anymore like you know you're always going to reuse it or like paper straws or just don't use one or whatever unless you you know need them for mobility but Um,
Speaker: I think that. Yeah, it's sort of like a... You know, I've tried all of this and yet the world is still so fucked up. like I guess. You know. nothing matters like it's not my fault it's a moral license yeah it's not my fault anyway because like you know it's the tragedy of the commons as i feel like we keep hopping back to and like this whole optimization thing where Actually, you know, my individual action, like I am going to consciously do this thing that I have been told is really bad for me.
Speaker: just on occasion. Just to feel some sort of like... you know, camaraderie or like it's like a little act of taking your agency back almost, which is like a bit weird to say about. Cigarettes.
Speaker: But. I think that. That is true. yeah I completely agree I think it's a way of Taking. your life back. At least that's kind of... in my head, what what I've thought in speaking to a few other people about this.
Speaker: It's like... There was this All right. Something I remember finding finding out during uni was that the idea of a carbon footprint was invented by BP, like British Petroleum, to kind of individualise...
Speaker: the actions needed to like change the world yeah to move responsibility away from the big companies and then another example this was like during covid basically basically when everyone reduced their our emissions as much as they could.
Speaker: Well, because you couldn't leave the house. Because you couldn't drive and you couldn't leave the house and planes were grounded. Like, it still didn't... It was a drop in the bucket compared to what we had to do because all the big corporations... still had factories still had factories running and it's that and then it's like well we all did our best and then trump gets re -elected and you know what have you in the world seems to be going in a bad place it's just it just is like
Speaker: well why not like are you gonna you can i you put yourself through all this like individual strife of like restricting what you eat changing your life otherwise making things less easy for yourself by taking stuff that has a little bit more friction to do yeah And I see cigarettes as kind of the the output of this. it Because of like like, it could have been anything. Like I think gambling is also...
Speaker: an outcome of this of like feeling like society's hopeless like the one and i just waste all my money put on a punt oh fair enough Or like why astrology's come back in. Like it's that same kind of, well, world, it's a bit meaningless right now.
Speaker: um Who cares? like Yeah, the thing I control is what I put in my body and I yeah decided to smoke a cigarette. I've decided to smoke a cigarette. And I think like... It is... That's kind of pop.
Speaker: one. but That's part two. Yeah. Part two. Part three is like the rebellion against optimization because... We've spoken before on this pod, I mean... Stephen Bartlett, Red Wine Gate. Do you want to remind what happened with Stephen Bartlett, Red Wine Gate? So if you haven't listened to that episode, it was only two episodes ago, so fuck you. He was mentioning on Diary of a CEO with a guest that a few years prior, he had had a glass of red wine.
Speaker: Before going to bed, it was he was just at a dinner celebrating with friends, having a good time. He wakes up the next morning and he's like, yeah, my sleep score was so poor. It had never been that poor. And it was so poor for the rest of the week that he's like, i actually, I'm never going to. drink wine again it made me podcast worse as well yeah yes it made him podcast worse and we were like Shut up.
Speaker: yeah Actually, shut up. His audience reacted really badly. And I think that was interesting because it's like... The... There's a meme going around right now. It's like, how many grams of protein and is ah is in a wonderful evening with friends? Like, where we are... One of the dominant narratives pushed...
Speaker: in society right now is this relentless optimization and quantification of Everything you do in your life, whether it's what you you tracking what you eat, tracking your sleep, tracking your your running and your you know exercise and all this sorts of stuff, relentless journaling. And it's not to say that these things aren't good, but it's like...
Speaker: It feels like cigarettes and gambling and whatever is a... reaction against this it's like because it's so hard like people are trying to follow it but They can't. They can't do it. Yeah, you I feel like we've you know we're we're beating a horse that we've killed 15 times, like talking about this again, but I think it's so important that...
Speaker: Um, You know, you can only do so much, right? Like... There's this idea of what success looks like. And what? you need to do in order to take care of yourself and live a beautiful long life but like you can only do so much so if I choose to not use a plastic straw to reuse my plastic bags to take public transport If.
Speaker: I like, you know. I also might not have the capacity then to... change my bed sheets every week I might do it once every second week or you know I'm gonna have yochi for dinner which isn't you know like the most nutritious thing But.
Speaker: I'm still alive. gonna wake up and be happy with myself. in the morning Who live these supposedly ultra -optimized lives. like It's funny. Like, it feels like they're still deficient somewhere else. Because, like, on one side you have, like...
Speaker: the manosphere side where it's like these people who have like are super healthy and ripped and whatever the hell. Like, they're, like, either they're they're very bad people or they have vices in other ways where they're, like...
Speaker: get like degenerate gamblers or like the fact that for some reason in all this discourse, people don't really seem to count cigars. It's like, no nicotine, like athletes after a, after a big title will smoke cigars, which, you know, a really bad visa V mouth cancer. Yeah. You know, probably up there with cigarettes and like with.
Speaker: you know, general people who are like, you know, very optimized. It's like, maybe a lot of them, for example, have a lot of money and things and are able to do this. And so it's like...
Speaker: It's not necessarily a flex. If you're this guy who's like, has... you know help someone to help him do everything and not doing it off their own bat. Yeah. And it's like, oh, I'm able to maintain this ultra healthy life and whatever.
Speaker: At what cost? At what cost. And it's like, you know... There's just a... it's It's not real. it's not It's not real. It's not feasible to maintain this optimized life. So to me, it makes sense why it's happening. Like, it could be cigarettes. It could be gambling. It could be any number of vices. But I just think...
Speaker: The space is opened up. back for vices like this in our society because of this relentless pushing of productivity and... yes uh... And self -optimization. I mean, like, the proliferation of zines among finance bros for, like, productivity reasons is a very fascinating example. They're still doing bumps, like, before a big meeting in the... Like, before a big meeting anyway. Yeah, I mean, other drugs are still huge and massive. Basil, get up on... Go... Go jump on cake.
Speaker: Go, go. Come on. Do you know how? He's too nervous. He needs to pick him up.
Speaker: Okay. We've we've got both dogs now. But yeah, I don't know. It's... To me, it's like, this is not a pro -smoking podcast. No, no. We're not saying that you need to go out and, you know, smile and buy a pack of Marlboro Gold. But it is to say that, like...
Speaker: These things are happening because we are feeling pressured to be 100 % optimized. Yeah. And then it's so much easier to be like, ah. I can't i can't fucking do this. I'm going to have a punt. I'm going to have a sig. I'm going to...
Speaker: Because, like, this is this is the thing. and And, I mean, there's always that scene in, in like, I remember in House of Cards. It's a very you know, intense scene when ah Kevin Spacey's character. is like so like He's this high -powered senator and he's got everything going for him. But it's a facade. He gets home and he's had a tough day. and he He has what looks like one of the world's best cigarettes smoking out the window.
Speaker: Like... The... portrayal of vice in popular media, I think. Is this way? as a reaction to this relentless optimization of the world and as as like a way to show Underneath.
Speaker: The Mosque. You know, like yeah Elon Musk and his ketamine use. Like he is the guy who's like one of the wealthiest people in the world. And he's like using so much ket that they could tranquilize several horses.
Speaker: Really? For his, like, depression. Yeah, there's, like, allegations of that. But it's, like, to me it all comes comes around back to the same thing of, like, not to it gives people more moral licensing to have cigarettes than just... does play into the hands of big tobacco. So, know like, it's funny to say, it but in a way it feels like... B - being told to be healthy.
Speaker: in a roundabout way can lead to people smoking more cigarettes. Well, I mean, that's kind of, well, yeah. I mean, if you're thinking about what we've spoken about already, yeah. Like that's what someone could.
Speaker: get from the conversation um Do you have something to say? Basil's looking straight up at the microphone. Do you have something to say, Basil? Bessel would totally sm smoke a cigarette. I'm a Tory, I'm a Tory. That's what he would say. um No, he's lovely. um Yeah, I just like...
Speaker: Fuck, I want a cigarette now. Yeah, this is this is unfortunate. Yeah, but also... we kind of with No smoking in my room. No. you know Do not smoke his... You can go smoke on the... You can smoke with the Otis on the balcony. I mean, but this is...
Speaker: like I guess it's just like now like trying to make sense of... of Of how to live your life. In this world where... you know, cigarettes and and vices are creeping back in. Cause it feels like we've, we're still like not.
Speaker: equipped as a society to have a good conversation about how to appropriately manage vices and things well we're much more likely to ban things than we are to yeah you know work with them because it's to do with stress relief and like nervous system regulating and so yes I've seen um some...
Speaker: like content online about people like, yeah, I've quit all my substances, but I've moved to yoga because that's the only way that I can like do something to distract myself from it. So there's like other things that you can do, but the end of the day, like it is a pastime. um And I was talking with my housemate, Cece.
Speaker: Where... People just don't know how to relax. um And the actual act of leisure. is really hard to master I feel like because we're you know always trying to optimize and like There is this prescribed. From the Industrial Revolution, the five -day work week, which, you know, we did get a weekend from all of these, like, workers' rights things, but...
Speaker: You know. I don't think that... you're like okay so then you're meant to like do all of your chores on the weekend that's not relaxing that's doing more work um and so like everything It takes effort.
Speaker: um And if you don't know... what to do, like if you're not. can If you haven't done the internal work and like connected with yourself. Ben. You don't know how to like turn your own brain off.
Speaker: Um, and a small respite. is the slow like inhalation and exhalation. That's... with a cigarette. Because it's like breath work. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's Yeah, it's funny because he some of the stuff with the cigarette is just comes back around to going outside and getting some fresh air, like you said at the start. But yeah, I mean, it's happening with the the issue, and I'm worried about this in... in society is like
Speaker: The way we treat, like, we we are so much more likely to ban vices than we are to regulate them. Yeah. Which is interesting. ah and Like, I mean, recently in Australia, you've had the social media ban for under 16s. And you've had, I mean, by proxy, kind of the pornography. soft ban Or at least yeah you have to make an account, which is like...
Speaker: Which like ruins the privacy of the place. Yeah, which ruins the privacy of like... you know, of of that vice but it's it's interesting now because it just feels like with all these things As it happens with... you know nicotine as it happened with alcohol and prohibition and as is currently happening with the social media ban which isn't really working kids are still finding ways to get online and same with pornography like you can find pornography online if you want to Um.
Speaker: It's just taking people to darker places. And meanwhile... the world's big like the biggest vice in australia and in like the states as well now gambling is like allowed to like openly flourish and be marketed towards so it's just like i just feel like we're living in this bizarro world where there's not actually a Good and... and decent conversation being had about like how vices work and What? What is his bat like?
Speaker: There's no real honest answer or an answer being able to be given that's like... Which one's worse? what is What's worse? Having one cigarette or placing, you know... $10 ,000 worth of multis. You know what I mean? like it's I feel like I've got my answer there. You know what I mean? like it's it's It just feels like we're not...
Speaker: It's like equivocating. We're not even having the comment. We're shutting it down before it even starts. And I think it's leading people into like darker and darker places. Well, yeah, i worry it's equivocating things that. On. of the same moral weight Um,
Speaker: And it's like, yeah. putting them on the equal playing field, which they just shouldn't be. Because I was looking up to prepare for this. I was like, my Google searches were like, is having one cigarette a month bad for you? Is having one cigarette a week bad for you? And there's just like not a lot of literature on that, right? There's not a lot of scientific studies being done on that. It's like about the extreme, right? Always they're like, oh yeah, if you smoke like a pack like a day, blah, blah, blah, this is what's going to happen to you.
Speaker: But... No one's ever considered... What is it if I... We should do our own study. We should do our own... We should need to do our own... Do your own research. yeah we Come back to us in 30 years. Yeah, do a 30 -year experiment where you become a smoker. yeah a bit yeah But I guess, like again, I'm not...
Speaker: I'm not advocating for smoking, but it's just like kind of naive to expect people to live 100 % cleanly is what I'm saying. And it's like there are various vices around and it just feels like a very stupid. banhammer way to just like you know you're just you're just playing you know whack -a -mole with all these vices you know, you know ban ban the cig shops as they come up.
Speaker: ah You know. Ban social media. And it's like and the thing is, too... to do with a lot of like illegal tobacco places as well is that like working staff On.
Speaker: being paid actual wages anyway like obviously because it's you know not a It's... In. like a criminal like it's like a visa scam or something yeah it's in it is an illegitimate business because of like all of the underhand stuff I'm not saying that like you should get rid of them because I like my cheap cigarettes but like I'm also thinking about it from their perspective too where like you know People come to Australia.
Speaker: They. just need to like an income and it's, you know, the, the closest thing. And then. Like you're taking people's jobs away. Yeah, that's that's the thing. it's It's all these people who are involved in it. are ah outputs of this flawed system that has failed to like regulate tobacco properly Like, I'm going to bring in the argument now. This is exactly the same as like minors. And moving to sustainable energy. like ah
Speaker: whoa elaborate on that let's retrain what are they they're like so you're saying and no no no walk with no i want to walk with you on this all right what the hell are you talking about so So like...
Speaker: People. Okay. They want to get rid of. Um, big my big call they want to get yeah they want to get they they they want to get rid of gina reinhardt yeah obviously she's not going anywhere because she like you know, basically funds the government. and She funds the government. She's so beautiful. um and She's a great singer. Love you, Gina. Love you, babe. But like.
Speaker: you know, there is sort of a a fake. Well, you know, it it has some merit about, like, what are all these people going to do, like, with their jobs, you know? Like... Obviously, you can...
Speaker: use their skills for something else, right? So if you get rid of... all of the tobacco shops. Oh, yeah. Where are we going to retrain these people? That's beautiful, Kate. Where are the tobacconists going to go? That's beautiful, Kate. That's that's one of the one of the best arguments I've ever heard. I feel like I just sounded like Kelly Osbourne. Today, I feel...
Speaker: Tobacconist. Oh, Basil's jumped off. Bye. I don't know. It's... it's Basically... It has been fascinating to grow up and watch regulation work. well and then not well in real time. Yeah.
Speaker: why We have watched like prohibition fail in real time. In the last 1920s, they had prohibition on alcohol. This time, they had prohibition on cigarettes. And look, neither worked. Nope. There's always going to be, a but like, if people want something, there's always going to be a market for it. and Oh, Otis is crossing the river, Con. He's crossing. He's jumping from me across to Kate's lap. Is he going to make it? He's made it.
Speaker: Wow. Very good job, Otis. As you've kind of interrupted the flow of the podcast. No, that's good. The last time I podcast with a dog on my lap.
Speaker: I'll just come back. Next time we'll get a cat. Yeah, that sounds good. I'm really allergic to cats. I'm not doing that. No, I think that that was a good interlude because I reflected and that was really bad. No, but I knew that that was a bad argument. okay I was, like, making that that that I started laughing before I started talking just to let it let everyone know. Let everyone know. That, yeah, I knew that that was a bad argument. Okay? Thanks.
Speaker: I guess, should we close maybe? You know, nearly get to close. Do you want to ask me about my... Well, yeah, so... Top three media representations. Like I mentored my top three. cigarettes that I've smoked.
Speaker: What would be as, you know, a, like a non -smoker. What would, at least for all this media representation that we've spoken about, what would be your three most iconic?
Speaker: cigarettes three most iconic media cigarettes in media uh i mean this is i would say The first one that comes to mind is Mad Men. Mm -hmm. Oh my... God, just like like the abandoned Lucky Strike. It's toasted. Like the reckless abandon with which they drink and smoke.
Speaker: Uh... And fuck each other. And... I... I close my eyes during those scenes. I make it PG. Again, there's something freeing about it. we just And this kind of comes back to it. It's like... Our generation knows how bad everything is for you.
Speaker: it's And that's so depressing. yeah And watching them do that is just like, ugh. I can't enjoy it anything anymore. You can't. And that's why the root of this conversation, it's like people give up because it's like, you yeah, you can't. Everything is bad for you, you know? ah And the people who live ultra cleanly are weird as hell. Like all the, you know... fitness influencers are in Bali are insane. So what am I meant to do? Anyways, that's one. Mad Men, just great suits, ripping cigs. Yep. Having whiskey.
Speaker: Number two. I'm going to say... Mary Ann and no normal people. Because I think this canonized just such a moment of me where... Yes.
Speaker: Sally Rooney and... ah the the showrunners and all people illustrating that scene where Paul Meskel's character goes to a debating party, which is, I mean, I've... I've been there. I've been to many a debating party in my time. ah And you walk out and someone who hitherto was a nerd in high school.
Speaker: is smoking a dart and it gives them some... elevated cultural cachet. Just that beautiful metamorphosis. Yeah. It just was poetic to be captured on screen. And she looks just delightful smoking that cigarette. Oh, yeah. And she's wearing like a velvet coat. Oh, she looks so cool. She's looking so chic. And I love that. At number three, I would say Cowboy Bebop, the anime. Good. Yeah, that's a good one. So, yeah, Spike, he's he loves to rip a cig. He looks so cool. And he's...
Speaker: Ripped as shit. He's ripped as hell. He's one of the great ah bounty hunters slash hitmen in the galaxy, and he just gets to smoke a cigarette and look really cool. In space. In space. in you know Imagine how good a space cigarette would feel.
Speaker: But yeah, I guess our conclusion is, should you smoke cigarettes? like this is This isn't recommended to smoking cigarettes. No. But it's more to point out the absurdity of of like preferring any vice over any other vice.
Speaker: In this world that tells you that clearly... I'm not saying individual actions don't matter, but... The people who told you to worry about your carbon footprint was BP. And in the same way that that's a lie, I think it's a lie to to beat up on yourself for not being like this optimized, ah entirely morally.
Speaker: like in terms of your ethical purchases person, like... i just I just think that's a... It's a sad way to live, and it's yeah only ever going to make you feel... I don't know. You're going to compare yourself to other people and it's only going to make you more depressed. Well, yeah, like nobody...
Speaker: is perfect. Um, Paul Buddy's North Bank. Jinx! Um. But. I think that you like owe it to yourself to just like.
Speaker: Be kind. Yeah, I guess, and this is what i I'm seeing is there is now this generation of like sometimes smokers. ah the And I... I don't know
Speaker: I would argue these people are pretty happy. Yeah. Like this is the thing. A lot of the people I know who are doing this, like otherwise run a lot, work out a lot, go to the gym heaps. Yeah. Or they'll do it when they travel and they have a great time. I could be doing so many. more like i could be doing way worse things what's worse working in private equity or smoking a cigarette with your friend two cigarettes a week yeah i know which one i'm thinking
Speaker: what's worse now we're gonna do more hypotheticals yeah okay would you and i this is i guess i just want to open and be like as a society all we have done a lot of the the mechanisms we use to combat vices it's just band ban ban ban ban ban and i think that is so stupid because it's never comes from a place of evidence. Cause if that was true, you'd ban gambling, you'd ban alcohol.
Speaker: I just think we could live a little more in the grey area. yeah Regulate. Because then you wouldn't have this insane industry of tobacconists that has like... you know illegal black market tobacco with us torching all these shops and whatever. Because that's more dangerous than...
Speaker: You know, that that's causing so much harm. Let the people have their Rick and Morty backy bong. Okay. Real. Yeah. Actually, now that I think about it, the first cigarette that I probably would smoke would probably be a joint mixed with... A spliff? Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is disgusting behavior looking back when I didn't know what I was doing. I was like, you know, 18. Hey, we've all been there. We've all been there. We've all been there. Okay, concluding remarks?
Speaker: Concluding remarks. Sometimes at the end of a long day, you just need a cigarette. Sorry. It's about the balance across your life, you know one One fall off doesn't make your life worthless, doesn't make you worthless if you have a hard day and you succumb to a vice. I don't think you should we should...
Speaker: Look at Vice in the... shameful way that we do as a society because i think that Doing that pulls you further into it. Mm hmm. I think if you view these things as ultra mega shameful yeah and don't have grace with yourself Yeah. Paradoxically, you're probably going to become more addicted to whatever it is you're addicted to. Yeah. I think that, yeah, nothing is...
Speaker: smoking a cigarette having a shot of tequila is not a moral failing It's a good time. Yep. That's a good time. um Don't smoke if you don't want to, but if you have one or two...
Speaker: Can I have one too? I won't have one because I don't really like them. But that's what I want. Well, that's been that's been this episode of Heroes of the Popularity Contest. um Drop a comment below what... What's become popular? What should we do next? Also, comment below which dog was your favorite. Yeah, comment below which dog is your favorite. They're kind of fighting over in the corner. Where did I just take a poop in my bathroom or something? Well, it'd be the place to do it. it to be I mean, respect if he doesn't in the loo.
Speaker: So, well. That sounds like it, Kate. Let's cheers. Cheers. Thanks for listening. thanks Bye.
