Transcript
Speaker: Popularity Popularity Popularity contest
Speaker: and Hello, welcome to Popularity Contest, a podcast about trends. And other stuff sometimes. My name is Kate Saab. And my name is Sam Lane, and we are joined once again by Otis the dog. And our cool new hat. Yes, we're recording this the first day of the Australia -South Africa third test.
Speaker: Final one day in Cape Town starts tonight, so I thought we should get patriotic with it. Put it on our Australian cricket hats. I went and saw the Aussie women play against New Zealand. Did they win? With my sister. Yeah, they they destroyed them. Oh, great. It was unreal. At North Sydney Oval, we had our hats on. It was great. ah Kate, last week, where were you?
Speaker: I was in Melbourne. I went down south. It was really hard, you know, my one hour flight there and back.
Speaker: People are bo beeping outside. um And especially with my broken foot. So update, you know, last time we recorded, I had gotten the phone call that my foot was broken. Mr. President, a second ankle has broken. Yeah, second ankle has broken. So now I'm on the path to my Steph Curry era recovery. um so But I didn't need to get surgery. That's good. It's a stable fracture. But I am walking around with a freaking boot on again. the The GP who gave it to me, he was like, oh, just use the one that you got from last year.
Speaker: Brother. I threw that shit in the bin. I threw that in the bin. That sucks. Also, I've got the green out of the green and gold caps on. And if you're listening, I'm actually wearing a yellow shirt today.
Speaker: Oh, double yellow? I mean, whatever you feel. No, I mean, I'm going to take mine off anyway. Yeah, that's fair enough. You can keep yours on. I'm keeping mine on. Australian, I'll take it off. I feel like I've got enough things around me. Let's be serious. I've got the dog. I've got the fidget, Otis fidget toy. Oh, yeah. Sam got his own fidget. I've also, while Kate was away, I sent Kate a very important text. Where did you get your fidget cube from?
Speaker: And you directed me. To the kiosking question ah next to Aldi and Broadway Shopping Centre in Sydney CBD.
Speaker: Oh, Dr. Pepper themed Nido. This thing is unreal. Been really enjoying this. Yeah, Sam got the cube shaped one. I have the gumdrop, which I actually left at our friend Alexa's house a couple of weeks and weekends ago. So I've got her jumper though. So we're going to do like a custody swap. Meet in a parking lot. No, we're going to trivia. Okay, good.
Speaker: That's so funny. Yeah, so I went to Melbourne. That was a lot of fun. um I went to ACCA. I had never been before. And it was the friend that I was staying with lived in South Bank. And so it was just around the corner from where she lived. um Thanks for that recommendation, Lauren, if you're listening. It was really cool. They had their version of like the MCA New Contemporaries. um So it was like a bunch of... Well, you guys have art galleries down here too. Yeah, isn't that crazy? And you also like, you know, do a retrospective about, you know, the cool new stuff that people are making this year.
Speaker: um One of the artists, Diego Ramirez, um he sort of did like a... Um, I uh artwork installation about like the bureaucratic nature of the arts industry and i was like Don't I know about that. And he, part of his... um artwork was he wrote... like a novel.
Speaker: Cold. um, Burosis, which was sort of like a a fiction. piece about like trying to get funding and like working with people a weird way of saying bro sis Burosis? No. You know what? I'll shove that one. Sure. That's fine. You know what? And the thing is, like...
Speaker: It's okay to make mistakes. And I feel like that's pretty relevant to what we're talking about today. No, that's good. That's a segue. Strong segue. Yep. What are we talking about today, Kate? We're talking about internet mobs. Internet mobs. The woke mob, even. The woke mob. Woke to. Woke 2. Yes, I've heard we're in Woke 2.
Speaker: Yeah, so basically what happened whilst I was away as well was a comedian that we both think is funny, yeah Vittorio Angelone. He has done the rounds on podcasts and things. Recently, he's been in some roast forums. Yeah, it was at the end of last year and I think what happened is it it became like a...
Speaker: ah from From beyond the paywall it finally like... came out which is was another interesting thing. sure Also, it was a joke that he had made last year. yeah ah Yeah, so it was it was a roast of someone. And he made a... pretty off -color joke that I'm not going to repeat that was about ah sexual assault by...
Speaker: this a person who is a sex worker who's a friend of theirs who's like a podcaster person I was... her father had abused hub. And...
Speaker: He made a ah joke about that in this roast and it came out and... She went online and said... Like. vittoria like was i've interacted with he's like i would consider like a you know acquaintance of kind of a friend and i felt really blindsided by this and Another thing was Daniel Sloss. The comedian Daniel Sloss was there at this roast as well. And he's obviously very famous for his ah piece of stand -up about...
Speaker: sexual assault and male sexual assault and and silence. And it kind of blew up. And there's also been the Slater racist tweets It's happened again. Like they found them from when she was. um 15. 15, and they've come back again now that she's more popular. Mm -hmm. But the thing is, like... And Geordie Grape! Yeah, jodi re like we were talking about the other week.
Speaker: yeah he's Yeah, he's been done for ah kissing a woman while she's asleep. ah Crazy work. Kissing a woman while she's asleep. And then I think she woke up and was like, no, thanks. And he's like, oh, fuck. Okay, sorry.
Speaker: I don't even think he was like... Because it was like 6 a .m. And then he was just like a weird douche and then left. Yeah. Her statements about this. But... We're going to zoom out a bit and take you through a history of like...
Speaker: trying to get justice on the internet because ultimately What's underpinned all these incidents is... A style of retribution, and we'll also bring up a character from across...
Speaker: you know, different areas. Tyler catastrophe will yeah be mentioned in this, for example. um Keep your ears peeled. Keep your ears peeled. like This is something that it it is a reaction on the internet. If something bad happens or something, does someone does something you don't like.
Speaker: uh the mob comes at them right and it's one mode of doing it and we found that interesting because it applies kind of no matter what the person's done and um Like, what position they... they are in and like politically and it's There's one mode, internet mob.
Speaker: Um. And that's interesting because... it's I just think we're at a pretty interesting space in terms of like... quote -unquote cancel culture and like where social justice is at now and Also because...
Speaker: Like. where kind of We've kind of lived through all this. and like I don't know. I'm seeing takes online about Like, people are kind of getting, like... sick of cancel culture who aren't like Rowan Atkinson being a dick you know I just would have thought that Aren't we beyond this? This is like, this is sort of my thesis of the whole conversation where it's like, surely you get like you know we've we've done this enough to enough people where it's like
Speaker: Okay, well, either you get off the internet. or you like... actively change what you're doing um and it's through like evidence of this evolution that I think that people then get their forgiveness but like that's sort of my grand idea about the situation and we'll come back to it we're gonna circle back to it but keep that in mind as we dive we dive straight in we dive straight in the year is 2016 um Me Too comes up. What was it like?
Speaker: For you. experiencing the rise of like Hashtag me too. Um. Because we were around the same age. Yeah. I think for me... Um...
Speaker: I... guess I was sort of observing it. from like outside of the club, right? Where I was living in Brunei. There wasn't really anything going on, like no major.
Speaker: um film and tv industry like that so just sort of reading about what people are saying Um, But honestly... I don't really think I had that much.
Speaker: engagement with it um because I was also 14 years old. oh Here's a better question. What was your first engagement with like a cancel culture moment? Have you ever? oh probably these because i mean i'm happy to start with like what I... experience at the time because my first instance of cancelling my sort of like ah My section of the internet for that was like Shane Dawson getting cancelled for the bajillionth time for doing something else. um And or also the...
Speaker: Tati Westbrook, James Charles. incident where he did it at her birthday party. ah Talking about sucking dick and cock. Oh, yeah. Even I watched Hey Sister. Yeah, yeah. This whole like...
Speaker: youtube beauty influencer makeup artist drama i was i was in the thick of that yeah I was in the thick of that. And what was that? What was your reaction to that? like How did you feel about it at the time? Because I imagine it was similar. to how I felt, which was like,
Speaker: Wow, we have like finally have... another avenue to hold people to account because it feels like... for a long time, you know, especially with instances of like Sexual crimes.
Speaker: There was no way to hold people to account. People could... kind of just go and do whatever they want. Yeah, it's sort of this... um Like... I was actually, my housemate is doing um a social work.
Speaker: diploma. And she got a pamphlet from Legal Aid about like... Women's safety. post like family violence and trying to leave and stuff and just tips about that. Um, And talking about like.
Speaker: you know, trauma informed. um care and especially like um women who have experienced like family violence, sexual assault, like. being the people if they can handle it to like help out um and guide people through the next steps and stuff.
Speaker: And so... It's... really interesting about like evidence and things like that where Surely the the perspective of the person. Should be enough. Right. Because like. having to recall.
Speaker: All the time. like what happened to you and reliving that trauma would be exhausting. Um. That being said... I did watch the first five minutes of the Ray Gun documentary.
Speaker: ah And. she's like like in the opening she's about to like go and and break for the first time again um and she's just like and then you know i just like had a flashback from the olympics and i was just like she's just crying on camera um And then her husband's there like...
Speaker: It's all right, babe. Just go out and like. you know. Give him the one -two. Shut the fuck up. um So... Yeah, and how is that related? I just thought it was really funny Um, Because she's like, yeah, I'm trauma -informed. Using the language of trauma. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah that's what I mean, that's what's interesting. like Me Too initially was like, it was the incorporation, kind of the Pandora's box of...
Speaker: Like, letting therapy speak also into the main. And, like, I agree. Like, again, like, I really agree. I remember feeling initially with Me Too, especially around 2016, like, first Trump election.
Speaker: Um, like I felt like there was finally a way that you could... You feel really disenfranchised. There's finally a way. you could... take action and like If something bad had happened, particularly if someone was like like a sex pest in some way, like I use that term loosely, it's just like...
Speaker: they've committed some form of yeah essential you know infraction. Like it felt like... you could actually do something. And and like, it like Harvey Weinstein, like it worked. There was quite a few. Um, Buh. What's interesting, and I think this is maybe like a hallmark of things to come, is like it's interesting looking back at that initial wave because...
Speaker: There were obviously some very high profile people who got... Done. Buy it. And that's really good. And they got done by the law and like it. you know, came out after them. Yeah. There was also two I want to talk about, which is first is Aziz Ansari. Do you remember the...
Speaker: thing about him at the time no this i remember a lot because it was the first one there was a lady who basically published an article about a date she'd had with him ah and really is it goes this got really big because this was like one of the initial me too's and she basically like he'd kissed her but she wasn't enjoying it but essentially the conclusion of this was like This was a bad date.
Speaker: And like, but Aziz was kind of forced to go into hiding like after this a bit. And I think this is a harbinger of like what. we'll come to talk about because it really shows that there's kind of only one mode if someone is like, Quote unquote cancelled online. Like you can't.
Speaker: It is either everyone is on you or nothing because... Preparing him to like what Harvey Weinstein did. They got treated. Like, with the same... and Like, they got, like, you know... exponential amounts of like...
Speaker: internet. hate attribution one really deserves it and one you're like yeah I mean later down the line ten years later Aziz Ansari did perform at the Riyadh Festival. Yeah, so and and this is the other thing. Some of the people who initially cancelled, like Louis C .K., who was like...
Speaker: you know a consistent repeated pattern of disrespecting women like jerking off for them like yeah like o He's back. Like, he's back. Yeah. And then nothing's happened. No. Things like... Oh, something's going on outside.
Speaker: Police cars, ambulances. they come They heard us talking about Louis C .K. can't They cancel cultures coming for us. yeah But this is what's interesting as well. And this is something that I slowly began to realize is like...
Speaker: Cancel culture. Maybe it didn't work as well ah as we thought it would. and And I remember thinking this more fully when I went to uni.
Speaker: I've told you about the the cancellation I did at uni. No. So there was this girl who was running for like student council. And she was like. Look, she was kind of annoying. like A lot of people found her a bit like... ah Kind of.
Speaker: go get like kind of annoying go -gettery, like like kind of Stu Paul type. She's going to become a labor staffer. Yeah, like i've i I talked to her at a couple kind of left -wing events and she kind of had this like, well, let's just talk about, paul like it like this kind of centrism. Anyway, so she ran as an independent. um But she was also like, there were murmurings of like, you know, she was like in a kind of Hillsong churchy thing and maybe she was more concerned that she let on. And then basically... A couple people of people, friends of mine found...
Speaker: Like stuff she'd said like a year ago. Being like... ah basically just being like Indian people are really smelly and then we kept going And some of it will like back like... down into high school but we were 19 like and so it was like only a year or two removed so That's where it gets a bit... dicey but there was a lot of stuff that was like
Speaker: Yeah, really racist, really transphobic. Like, just, like, really just did say it's supposed to be posting on main. Like, this is on Facebook. Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay, great. And in the past two years. And then there was, like, an Instagram account we found where she would just, like...
Speaker: post photos of black men and be like mmm like I need some of that BBC oh so it's a oh god like it was shoes and like and then That all comes out. We send it to the ethnocultural officer at the uni.
Speaker: Then it comes out like someone that gets leaked someone gets posted in the main group chat This woman becomes a pariah for the next month. It is nothing but like canceling and then she like releases an apology where she's like i'm not the person that i was and we're like that was from six months ago like what do you and then It was really interesting watching what happened to it because obviously I don't think she should have run for... so for The council, like...
Speaker: like I think people deserve to know that... like That's the person they're electing. Yeah, totally. But she only went further right wing after that. like she went from like maybe being kind of in the middle to like being full -on liberal and like kind of doing
Speaker: ah Like, similar to... your She was our Friar Leitch. Yeah. Right? Who was... you know, the UCEDD lady who was like, they wrote an exam about me because they said I'm an annoying conservative. And now she's married and pregnant. she's Yeah, and she's a Sky News host. yeah Well, she got cancelled from that. play It was really interesting because it wasn't popular to say this at the time, but it was definitely like there were some people I knew who were like...
Speaker: I think like... We can stop hating now. But it just kept going. Yeah. um where it's like where do you draw on the line where it's like okay maybe this person has gotten enough or...
Speaker: Maybe they let's give them the space to sort of reflect on the situation. And then it got me like thinking also just like about... the objectives of Like... I... canceling someone because it's like Obviously, I think there's times where it's like, well, no, we should It's powerful to de -platform people. I agree.
Speaker: But I was also like, well, what do we want for this person? Do we want? them to become better? Or do we... like kind of just revel in the satisfaction of the takedown. And it really seemed like the latter.
Speaker: And that's persisted. Yes. No matter who, no matter what. It's the satisfaction of being like, oh, this person. has done something wrong. And I feel morally superior to them, which is fine to feel for like a second. But then it sort of is the maturity of being like, okay, let's take a step back.
Speaker: And let them, you know. so Have some time for reflection. And then come back. It's almost how I feel about. like Channel 5, Andrew Callaghan, yeah where it came out that you know he was like a sex pest. um I might not know exactly the extent to... Do you want me to pull that up? oh Yeah, what happened? I'll pull it up for you. Yeah, pull it up. Pull it up, Jamie.
Speaker: Um, where you know and then he like issued an apology or he just was like pestering women Um, and thinking that, you know, he could like use his platform. Two women posted TikTok videos, uh, accusing Kellen of trying to pressure them to having sex with him. Uh,
Speaker: da da da da da da He said... That. like basically not as true uh do you Was like, I'm going to therapy and end Alcoholics Anonymous. Yep. Um...
Speaker: okay there are also he'd said like no and then he's like he denied it and then basically He's kind of just come out the other side of it, which is the interesting thing.
Speaker: Um... Like, he's not. The... Nothing ever went to court or anything. No. But he's like he's consistently kind of come out and said afterwards, like... look i've really like i i did fuck up and i've i've gone to therapy and i've gone to aa and i And...
Speaker: He's... Also, I think the the thing with him is he's doing some of the most insanely... important journalism right now, which makes it more complicated. but yeah But I just, you know, like giving people the grace where, okay, we'll look like I can.
Speaker: It... Almost being like, yeah, innocent until proven guilty, right? Like giving more people, like being a little bit more. charitable or just thinking about the fact that you know nothing is so absolute where people can't change i think um we were discussing earlier about sort of this idea that comes from Angela, you know, Angela Davis about like abolition. Obviously that's in like prison reform and things like that too.
Speaker: But it's sort of the same where, okay, well, we already have these systems in place and clearly they're not working because people still end up being. terrible people. um So... wouldn't you allow them?
Speaker: to yeah like reflect on their behavior learn about the social consequences and it's almost like a rehabilitation thing or yeah you know like seeing them Then...
Speaker: Like... you know, other If you're like wanting to stay in the arts and entertainment industry. Being like, okay, well... Make something else and let me see. what happens. Yeah.
Speaker: Let's go through. Three case studies I think. Of. Modern cancellation. Oh, this is my first squish. cube Yeah. Oh, this is like, why aren't you squishing me? I am Fidget Cube. You're actually not that squishy, Bert. I'm Fidget Cube.
Speaker: Let's go through like the three. modern ones we're gonna do vittorio angeloni slater and tyler catastrophe yep and explore. The... What happens when these people are like quote -unquote cancelled? and what it says about them. So, is there any in particular you want to start with?
Speaker: Let's do Tyler Catastrophe because I ah feel like that. We. you know have have spoken about him between ourselves yeah there's there's an episode that hasn't seen the light of day we'll redo it on the cutting room floor yes on the cutting of room floor Which is, he...
Speaker: Tyler catastrophe for those who don't know a brief primer ah went viral for basically defending this guy called Wilbur Soot, who was a popular Minecraft YouTuber who was also known as the but Brighton Biter. um And also, like... Was he a musician? Musician. And Tyler was like, loves this band. And Tyler basically is the the kind of very kind of cringe Tumblr core.
Speaker: Person who is like... ah kind of way self -aggrandizing and quite cringe and got a lot of hate for things they would do. They called themselves Two -Spirit, which is a...
Speaker: American First Nations term for like ah kind of non -binary and they're not First Nations. It's not really something you can use. And also was like trying to sell artworks for $900 that were not worth that. And just being like, well...
Speaker: Uh, wow, I'm actually like so... Like. people don't understand I need to do a GoFundMe for me. Yeah, GoFundMe to move out of Texas. I thought people were choosing Texas. Like, what's happening? Yeah, I know, Ella Langley. But... kind of a classic of like a lol cow you know someone is just incredibly like Anyway.
Speaker: A pile easy to make fun of. you get the situation And what did you think about Tyler Catastrophe? Um... How bad how bad is... Izzy. Tyler Kachashvi.
Speaker: I think he just you know might have been going through like... psychosis or just needs to to to get off iphone for a little bit yes and touch some grass and be like okay maybe there are other means that i can do to make money um to be able to afford to move country like I and or just like not taking everything to the internet so immediately I think that
Speaker: you know it's great when people find community especially if they're living in a remote remote areas or you know it's not necessarily a place where you know if you're a queer person like it's not really safe for you to make queer friends like in your immediate surroundings. The internet's a great place.
Speaker: Except if you have are so disconnected from reality that all of your interactions with people are online. then you run the risk of...
Speaker: being a psycho basically and like having this perception of like oh wow you know i have gone viral this is great but not having the critical thinking skills to be like Oh, maybe it's not for the right a reason that I wanted.
Speaker: um lie down o And that sort of... I think that. The whole point about lolcals. why it's so easy to like trigger them and and get them to keep doing it is because they lack that sort of understanding.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. And what's interesting... The point I'm going to make off the top is that the way people went after... tyler catastrophe is the exact same way they are going after Vittorio and Slido.
Speaker: Which is the interesting thing. No matter the infraction, the response is the same. and That's the problem to me because that's... it doesn't lead... To any form of like. It's not nuanced. it's not it doesn't ah There's no grades of...
Speaker: ah There's no shades of gray. It's right or wrong. ah And it gets confusing. and Catboya. The Oracle herself slate made a... A...
Speaker: of tiktok at the time about tyler catastrophe situation where she was like do i think he's cringe Yeah. But some of y 'all need a bitch to be a little fat and a little ugly before you make fun of them. And to me, this is the ugly side of cancel culture. Because also...
Speaker: Because it's not, it's nothing really grounded in any consistent ethics. It can end up. just reinforcing structural biases we have you know like a childhood style of bullying think about the covid conscious lesbian bar most of their clientele do i think they're a bit cringe and whatever yes but the reason they're getting so much of like online attention and hate and stuff is because they are minorities.
Speaker: and like i think they need to I don't think they they go about their stuff in the right way, sure, but... That that's that's a big problem with internet mobs or it's you know like a a place for community that is so.
Speaker: on the fringe um and it gets, you know, it only takes like one stupid comment or like one video that goes viral for. like this whole slew of people who would never have ever engaged.
Speaker: With this section of culture. Or the internet or whatever. um They say one thing funny. Or one thing off collar. And it's like. ra ra yeah It's really easy to... to make fun of that um that being said you know sometimes a low -hanging fruit joke is funny um but you you make it one time and then you move on, right? like I think. um It's like this whole thing that's happening at the minute.
Speaker: um Have you seen on Twitter, like literally yesterday, about Japan versus France? And I'm just thinking like. Guys. What, like... Shut up. Yeah. like Stop talking. um It's where... you know, like I don't know what exactly...
Speaker: started the whole like joke feud thing in the first place but Um, bit. ah Japan was like making fun of French people or French culture or whatever. And then oh what was this one?
Speaker: um One of my friends sent me. Send me something in in the GC. That's short for group chat, um if you didn't know.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker: um Oh. That's right. Japanese people are just going to like... racism um And there's this one where a Japanese guy. called a french dude the n word oh beautiful and it was like oh wow um and then someone else tweeted Um,
Speaker: I'll. i'll We'll insert picture here. This Japanese guy who writes his suicide letter because his kindergarten crush rejected him. Parentheses, he's a teacher. So really honing in on the like, you know. pedophilic side of um internet mobs yeah internet mobs internet mobs and they're like yeah haha france is winning shut the hell up No one wins Shut the hell up Everyone's losing Get off your phone Go talk to someone
Speaker: Shall we go to Vittorio Angeloni? Yeah. Okay, Vittorio Angeloni, this is the one of the hot button issues. So... He is a comedian, I would say, who's well -known for being like left -wing. ah One of his most viral clips... He's from all northern night Northern Ireland, so he he's like...
Speaker: you know, has that whole thing. he larry Oh yeah. Pat him on the other side and he'll. Ha ha! ah Move his head. This is Otis otis being silly when you pat him. um Victoria Angelini, like, left -wing comic. ah Penny Mordaunt, who's a... Tory MP was on a talk show that he was on and he like went to town on her. Oh yeah. It was great. He was like, I'm so glad that like, you know, women are getting into defense contracting. It's like a male dominated industry. And he was like, no, you're not a, you don't get to get on here and be funny. and It was really good. ah And...
Speaker: you know, generally like a hot comedian now who's like quite You know, he makes funny jokes about, like, he did he doesn't punch down on, like, trans people and stuff. And so, you know, it was out of the blue that ah last week, basically. He also um has been diagnosed with autism. Yes.
Speaker: yeah And he talks about that on his podcast and stuff as well. But he's a viral comedian. and he Said ah ah he made a ah joke about... ah
Speaker: internet celebrity OnlyFans creator Rebecca Goodwin on a roast last year that has become public this year and he made a very off -color rape joke. Right. Was she even in the audience? She, that's what, this is when it came out. Cause she made a video being like, I just found out that this joke had been made. Yeah. And they were like friends. Or they'd been on the same, or like they'd known each other in some capacity. Right. um But it was a really bad joke. There's no, there's no two ways about it. It was really shitty rape joke. Right.
Speaker: ah There's all the backlash and stuff. He releases an apology. Do you want me to read the apology to you? And then you can react to it. ahem i Made a joke that I shouldn't have made and I'd like to say sorry actually do you want to hear the joke? Should we go back? Do you want to see the joke?
Speaker: I know the joke. Okay, you know the joke. I feel like we don't need to platform it anymore. I'll read it out to you. I made a joke that I shouldn't have made and I'd like to say sorry. The joke referenced sexual violence. At the very least, I should have run the joke past the person mentioned and still not told it because it isn't funny.
Speaker: I let my need for validation supersede my own standards and morals. It's completely pathetic, and I'm ashamed to realize that about myself. I pride myself on being able to talk about difficult topics and make them funny.
Speaker: I stand beside I stand behind plenty of jokes that people have criticized. This is not one of those jokes. I've reached out and apologized directly to the person mentioned in the joke. I'm also sorry to all the people who are rightly upset by the joke. I know that's not going to make it okay, but I'm still sorry.
Speaker: I'm not apologizing in the hopes that this all blows over. I'm apologizing because that's what you should do when you realize you've done something wrong. I'm grateful to you for calling me out and making me realize where I should have done better.
Speaker: Sometimes you need a lot of people telling you that you fucked up to realize you fucked up. I will do better in future. What do you think about that apology? Sure. Like... Um...
Speaker: I think that. We saw another video as well, this other take that a woman had. um especially the fact that, you know, she was Irish as well and like has worked in sort of the manosphere space for a long time, like de -radicalization.
Speaker: Where? Like. If you don't give someone the grace to like let them change when they're not like an Andrew Tate figure. then like what's... Like what what else can you do?
Speaker: Right. um where I think that, you know, he's I feel like Vittoria has said the right things, but it's a matter of... you know believing like i'll i'll I'll believe it when I see it, yeah basically.
Speaker: Do you want to me to read to you the top comment on this? Oh, yeah. To get the what the vibe is. Okay. You sat down, wrote the joke, went over it, read it out loud, didn't edit it out the video, and then made a graphic to post on your feed to promote the video. An apology isn't enough. It is absolutely disgusting. To still refer to it as a joke too proves you've learned nothing. You're apologizing because there was uproar and not because you actually understood by why what you did was abhorrent. You wouldn't have bothered apologizing if no one had called you out. Oh, that's true. Yeah. Like, you know, the fact that he said it in the first place. I understand.
Speaker: Um. What do you think, Sam? um I mean, I think it's all like the the thing is, again, it's nuance. And that's where I think it gets really difficult because, again, I. I, yeah, there was, I would... Was watching things about it and there were two things I sent to you and they were both from... uh... Northern Irish women who I think... are really good kind of best place to talk about it because yeah they understand the scene the best and one was basically like what I just read out like being like But then the other one who was like, I've been researching the manosphere was like. Yeah, that woman. that Yeah.
Speaker: Or like, what do we do here? And it just took me get back again to when... This has happened to me. I've been in this scenario where I've been in the mob and I've... you know, can't help cancel someone for...
Speaker: a reason that I thought was right. Mm hmm. Someone who, I mean, would told jokes that were really racist. Like, I would say, told jokes that were kind of on par with what Vittorio said. and And a litany of them.
Speaker: Uh... And... Five years down the track. This person Has more. influence than I would have thought. Mm hmm. This person like worked for parliament. for a bit.
Speaker: And I just... Looking back on it. As much as I don't like that person... I wish that they had been treated with a bit more grace because...
Speaker: Well, what do we want from them? What's the counterfactual? How do we make these people better? like i just and i just don't know like yeah of course like it it will take actions and times to atone for things so that's that's the process of making mistakes but i guess i just like having experienced you know something similar i'm like
Speaker: His crime as well like there's a lot of serious things that happen in the world And I see people get away with like... Actual like sexual assault. Yeah. And...
Speaker: because I think it's because Vittorio is in a more left -wing space. He's treated harsher. And that's ah an interesting paradox of... being online and stuff, but... I guess what's interesting as well is like then comparing to Tyler Catastrophe.
Speaker: It's the same. There's the TikTok about the TikTok. There's continuous discourse and stuff and, you know, piling on and the person goes dark on social media and you find everything they've ever said. well yeah and And there's an excoriation and there's 12 video essays on YouTube that recap it. A lot of the time as well, you know, people are...
Speaker: reacting to the reaction the reaction of the thing they're not seeing they're not seeing the primary source um Or it's like, you know, the first thing I saw was the apology that Victoria made.
Speaker: And I was like. I didn't even know he had anything sorry to... Like, you know, if I... was it if i didn't keep scrolling or look at the comments, then yeah I would be none the wiser.
Speaker: um and i wonder then if that comes from just like a you know an ignorant perspective where you're just like, well... I didn't see it. So it doesn't really affect me or like, why should I care?
Speaker: um I think that that's another interesting... sort of avenue to think about too um if you know it hadn't have come across my feed like Would I have given a shit? Yeah. um I don't know. You know?
Speaker: An end. I think this brings us to like the third one, which is Slater. Which is another interesting one. So she you know, One of the biggest pop stars in the world. Of the day. Ascendant. pop star.
Speaker: I saw her at Manning Bar. That's crazy. Yeah. Wow. No, my friend Nina loves Slater. Shout out to Nina. um And she's like, please, Gay, do you have to come with me? I'd never listened to any Slater before. And it was...
Speaker: Amazing. It was so much fun. I love going to gigs at Manning Bar. I saw Zach Fox there too. yeah That was great. Okay, so Slater. So I have an icon here. So these were tweets that she put out in 2012.
Speaker: Uh, so she was 15. Uh... And...
Speaker: So what's the crime she she said the n -word? At 15 years old. Yeah, she said an in... like Probably ah about a dozen. tweets. Um...
Speaker: And... then It came out in, like, 2019, and she had she donated to... um several charities afterwards.
Speaker: Uh... Yeah, so she said blah blah blah. 15 year old, blah, blah, buth blah, blah, blah. She educated herself and then she. have been researching some charity organizations that benefit black members of the lgbt plus community and used her money from her vinyl and cd sales to um donate to that. So she gave all the money from that. um But now because she's... um you know, The next track, it's come back out. and Yeah.
Speaker: She... put out like tweets being like, Like. The digging down on it like is... just unsettling to me. She said, everyone trying to recancel me for high school things may have you don't know how many times I have to say that I'm not that kind of person anymore. I haven't been for 15 years. I'm 30 now. I don't act or say the things I did in high school. Yeah.
Speaker: That's that but let me take you to the top comment on r slash for moi Like Dumois? Yeah. but it's like the Reddit of that. Oh, okay. So this has 8 .5K upvotes. Jesus.
Speaker: reddit gold thanks gold guys i'm of the opinion that people can change and what we do as teenagers shouldn't ruin our lives forever but these tweets are insane and let's not pretend pretend this wasn't considered abhorrent racist in 2012 even if you were 15 i'm so fucking sick of white people saying oh my god that was so long ago i've grown up as if the bar for personal growth is going from being openly racist to not so racist in public the sheer amount of racism uh this other pop star no money has had to endure other pops good for girls is actually fucking insane Right. So, I guess like...
Speaker: I understand the... ah The sentiment here. Yeah, like because you get away with it. But it's also like, i don't I don't agree with the thing about high school. I think... If you are not... legally You are legally a child. Yeah. I don't i don't understand how you can legally... like If you...
Speaker: We would never say that a child could like consent to like. you know, most things. They have to wait till they're an adult. I don't understand how you could be held to the same... thing is of responsibility. Well, and let's add into the conversation then about 12 -year -olds in Australia being able to go to like adult prison. Yeah. Which is fucked up. And then and that's the thing because I think we would all agree that like...
Speaker: Well, you know people in left -wing spaces of which like the people in these communities are who are criticizing Criminal responsibility for children and putting that on them is is not a good way to...
Speaker: Help them and get them to a better place. It just reinforces them again sends them down the more right -wing path and this I think brings us to the back to the abolition stuff. So this is the ultimate of way forward. This is what I find so interesting. I sent this another thing to Kate about.
Speaker: People being like, it's interesting that. The - Mobs are cops. Mm hmm. They are. like The internet mob is a very cop mentality. Um. All the people we've described here.
Speaker: Well, I guess I've tried to do and what we've tried to do is like This is a variety of... infractions? From like... the kind of more Being cringe.
Speaker: And doing some weird stuff. Tyler Catastrophe. Yeah. to like, a very bad joke, this off -color rape joke, Vittorio, to, like, old tweets, like, stuff that's, like, Different styles, but all in the same thing. Yeah.
Speaker: And no matter what, What is never present in any of these conversations is forgiveness. There is no say there is no second chance. There's no nothing. And this is coming from left -wing spaces who...
Speaker: on the same beat will be like we need to like abolish prisons we need to Focus on rehabilitation. We need to... you know, think about these different things. But when it comes to actually engaging with people who do things that we consider wrong.
Speaker: We're not able to engage with that conversation not necessarily having a bar of it or Yeah, just... It's really difficult, right? Because like at what, like...
Speaker: Is... Is murder. You know, you're... Trying to see, like almost decide which. crimes are worse than others the fact that something is considered a crime in the first place like you know that's kind of part of the the abolition conversation yeah good the way you know yeah it's culturally constructed it's a part of like you know economic social political issues that sort of
Speaker: you know lead people to to behave a certain way blah blah blah Um. yes but if you again this is the thing like using the logic of abolition Or even not using the logic of abolition. Like, the three incidents we've described, for the amount of hate that these people have got.
Speaker: If you put them in front of a court of law... none of them None of them are even getting a fine. like No. It is not. like ah If you put any of this in front of a judge... They're like, get the fuck out of my courthouse. like you're to waste What are we doing here? Yeah, did anything actually happen? You're wasting my time. I went so i you know went to law school. Shout out. Part of the thing was to go to...
Speaker: Local court. And watch. ah some trials. Mm -hmm. And to watch... A criminal trial. in a sentence and hear and see what What is it? actually like a ah serious thing like the people who were like serious drug dealers or really serious people who have like committed ah domestic abuse ah or assault.
Speaker: Yeah, throwing an arson's funny in the middle there. the Domestic abuse. But worse. Arson. Insurance claim. All these crimes.
Speaker: And hearing the judge read out in the sentencing the list of things they have to go through, which includes rehabilitation, and they take everything into account. And the family's there, and they're sobbing. And... The end. you know, no doubt someone who is like, you know, a,
Speaker: A criminal mastermind or whatever the hell. He's like a, you know... Dealing. Myth. And like ran a drug empire. Probably doesn't have great opinions on women too. like End.
Speaker: It's just kind of interesting to me reading then going to internet drama because it just feels all so unserious by comparison. It's sort of like it's making, yeah, like a a serial murderer equivalent to some guy who like made a bad joke one time. and it's and again i just i think about this as well well what's the society we want to build and you could And the society we want to build...
Speaker: Like, you can't. Not everyone is going to agree with you. They're going to be people. who say bad things Make off -color jokes. Engage and have in these otherwise what you might call like... I don't know, quote unquote microaggressions, but like the category of stuff we've... described today yeah i wonder like what are you gonna do with these people are you just gonna throw them away
Speaker: i don't know It almost feels to me like this sort of people saying that Gen Z grew up in a bubble. Where, you know, like, everything is policed. You have to... um act appropriately all the time no one is allowed to make mistakes yeah because you know we live in a panopticon where everything is surveilled and i feel like that is where
Speaker: The issue, like everything leads back to Foucault. ah No, I mean, who who did the, jarret didn't Jeremy Bentham do the - Bentham invented the Panopticon. He invented the Panopticon, um right? So we're like, you're constantly being policed and it's this self -policing as well. um you know,
Speaker: i I wonder if some people feel like they're having a conversation with their friends and they're like, you know. Don't know how to... bring something up for. fear of like oh you know i'm afraid of what my friends might say about it i definitely felt like the idea of like you know, the self policing stuff. Like, it's like, you just don't know because then you might look back at s something you said.
Speaker: like when you were 17 and you're like oh i probably wouldn't say that now oh my god is that a sign that you've grown like i would i would never want Yeah, I guess I just like want It... You know, you you just have to let people grow and change. Because if we don't let people change, then what are we doing this for? Mm hmm.
Speaker: That's my question. Yeah. I don't know But yeah, do you think there's any capacity for these mobs to change or is it just going to continuously be a thing so long as like we let tech companies, because they're loving it. They're sitting back and watching us all get angry oh yeah on the internet while Mark Zuckerberg's like, hmm, what election should I interfere in today? Well, yeah, it's, you know, like it generates more income for the the powers that be because more people are on their phone.
Speaker: um and they're addicted to it it's almost like the the personal The satisfaction and feeling like vindicated that you're able to like... get at someone especially if you know they have a platform or They, you know, people people like them or or whatever. um And you're just being like, oh, it it it is a power thing, right? Where it's like, I feel I'm morally superior.
Speaker: to this person. um Because... I haven't done something wrong. And so... Or I wonder if it's like a retroactively then sort of.
Speaker: punishing this other person. Because... They have done something similar in the past um where, you know, you might have. i'm I'm sure when we were all kids, we said something that we we wouldn't sign off on now.
Speaker: um And so it's like... I. am going to get angry at this person. for doing this thing that I did, but they did it in public.
Speaker: and And that's why it's a crime. Yeah. Yeah. It's also interesting reading the The... thing of the slightest comments because like they're saying stuff like The...
Speaker: I like they're like they're like Uh... I had access to the internet. I never said anything like this in high school. It's possible to be 15 and never say the N -word, actually. like like you were like Like, there's that stuff as well. Like, oh, I've never been bad. Yeah, it's like, you might not have been saying the N -word, but you were writing smut about your teachers on Wattpad. Like, that's fucking weird. So, you know, like, all all kids are weird. I feel like all kids do something wrong, and that's a reason why, you know, you're you're growing in...
Speaker: People know that, you know, you might not be be saying the right thing. You're still learning. um and And none of this is to say that, like... If someone does shitty, you should still feel empowered to call them out.
Speaker: I guess it's just like... i want What I want people to take away from this is that, like... the consequence has always been... through the this... Mom.
Speaker: mob rule or whatever, is that it actually just makes more people right wing. yeah they like that's the i just i don't see there's very few people who have come out of this more left wing Like, when does when does that happen if someone's cancelled for something like that? Because then you'll they'll just go...
Speaker: and find a space where they... can actually say worse things i was remember talking to a friend about this about the open mic scene uh in melbourne when he did stand up there he was like well yeah there were some people that were like said some shitty jokes and it was their first stand -up and There was a whole kind of debate about whether to move him on or whatever. And then...
Speaker: His opinion was kind of like, well, then they're just going to go and set up their own even more right -wing comedy space where we can finally make dark humor. And it's just going to go from there. No one can say anything anymore. No one can say any jokes anymore. You just need to be able to teach these people. because And then it gets difficult as well, though, because it is there is the thing about like...
Speaker: Like. What makes me just think about Vittorio Angelone? Like, can you just say a joke that's like, you can you just say something that's not funny? And then. Like be like. Shit. and then move on. yeah you know Um...
Speaker: And then I think this is, i again, it's interesting because it comes back to the cultural the idea that you that i think a lot of the people criticizing victoria would agree with Of like the cultural um construction of crime. Mm -hmm. And... and and ah cultural taboo because ultimately what crime is is is a breach of the social contract, right? I think that Otis keeps farting.
Speaker: I'm smelling some Farty Farts. Oh, this. Good thing there's no smell -o -vision. Anyway, sorry. Vittorio Angelini. Vittorio Angelini. It's interesting because... He's something interesting as well because...
Speaker: When I... So when I taught debating to high schoolers and when we did the crime... um ah Like... topic when that was like the week that that was up i explained to them basically the idea that like Similar to like the the, if a tree falls in a forest and no one's around, it doesn't make a sound. I explained to that for them with with crime. I was like, well...
Speaker: An interesting phenomenon that happens, especially, for example, let's say say with indigenous people, is like there's like a thing in in criminology that I learned when I was at law school. It was like the kind of big three crimes. You'll find someone for being like...
Speaker: you know, drunken disorderly or something. and then they'll be like hey fuck you and then you'll charge them with offensive language and then you'll they'll be like what the hell is second crime and they'll get a bit angry and then they'll be like resisting arrest and it they had like a name it was like the big three And what I tried to explain to them with that was like...
Speaker: You need to think about this in a separation of the action versus the consequence because There are people. all around doing the action of drinking in a park. But because you're drinking in a park and someone can see you, that's where the crime comes in.
Speaker: And it makes me think again about. Vittorio. Because... The crime in his thing is, again, that it was... public But once you, I guess, realize that. that's ah It's a construction of the social taboo.
Speaker: I just don't understand if you can accept that in terms of criminology with objectively much more serious crimes. It's it's very interesting to me that like people are like, well, he's only saying this because he's been found out. Well, it's like...
Speaker: Yeah, because... If I'm doing... If I did like... I don't know, something that was illegal. Away from the... the public eye of like, Well, I got away with it until they saw me. That's how it works. That's how you get away with murder. that's so catches like that's that's i did It's such a silly argument to me, and it's like, well... Yeah, like...
Speaker: The whole point of cancel culture was that. Finally, we can shine the light on these things. It wasn't that these things are or aren't happening. Like, the whole point is they were happening the whole time.
Speaker: It was just finally attaching a proper punishment. So it just boggles my mind when I'm... looking at the responses to these things of like when people find this stuff because it's like It's just so not proportional. Yeah, and that like...
Speaker: I... The thing is, you know he could... ah All of these people could have doubled down, I guess, in the the way that Tyler Katastrophe has, maybe, to to talk about the...
Speaker: The... the The case studies that we have today. Double down like Matt Rife. Yeah. You know, we're just like, well, this is just who I am. And like, I don't think that I've done anything wrong. And therefore it pushes people further away where, you know, like in the case of Slater and Victoria Angelone, and I'm sure that there's. that Like, you know, Andrew Callaghan and other...
Speaker: Like, you know. famous people that we might have referenced. Like the the coming out with the apology is the one thing and the acknowledgement of like the doing the thing. and And then it's the... Okay, then what?
Speaker: Um, You know, like, like let's see. We haven't figured that part out yet. It's been 10 years and we haven't figured that out. yeah We haven't figured that out. I mean, you know. some some Some crimes are worse than others. One thing that's been floating around the internet um besides the Japan -France thing is... um Ethan Klein cheating on his wife. Hilarious. He tried a two -wife solution. true Two -wife solution. Fucking hilarious. um And, you know, just like...
Speaker: That has been sort of percolating in my mind. And he went, he did a podcast like immediately after that information came out yeah as well. He like reposted. The... the Instagram post that Hila made. It's just like... One thing after another. It's just so comedic. And it's like...
Speaker: That is a person that I think deserves what is coming to him. Because, yeah, this person... He just has, like, a history of being a shitty guy. um And, you know... And also because, like... the hill and But he he's someone who's flirted with control controversy in the past and retreated more and more into his own in -group of fans. Yeah, right? Yeah. Who do this. So that's an example of...
Speaker: what happens if someone doesn't like genuinely. acknowledge that maybe they did something that was antisocial. Yeah. And I do think that, like...
Speaker: There are examples I've seen of where it can happen, but it's exceedingly rare. So there's a YouTuber I watch called Atriok. Do you know him? No. He was like a streamer. He's like, he does you know Ludwig and those sort of streamer guys. And he's friends with those guys? Yeah, he has a podcast with them.
Speaker: ah He's... did About it. Two years ago... He was on a stream and there was a site. that was it was basically it came out that he'd been on a site that had like ai generated pornography Oh! And he had...
Speaker: uh they had stuff i can't remember if he had generated Or... it had generations of like contemporaries of him, including like ah streamers like QT cinder Cinderella and stuff like that. I think I remember this. So what happened with him is he immediately apologized and basically went dark for six months.
Speaker: And, you know... as QT's, you know, maybe married out a little bit, otherwise very close. Like, you know, it was a... Big bombshell. And this was a guy who... He's part of the friend group. Yeah. And so he went away.
Speaker: and for six months and then he came back online and he basically said I did the work. And what he actually did was he... spent Lots of his own money. In developing and working with this company that did like takedowns of AI, deepfake, pornography and other things. Wow. To like drastically speed up that process. Because you can either do like the court order. You can do like the internet takedown. And he basically was able to take down something like.
Speaker: just hundreds and thousands of deepfake pornography images wow of celebrities. And he was basically, I put his money where his mouth was. But I mean, it's interesting. Because...
Speaker: i i'm it's really great that he did that i think that's a really great example because he he he committed he took it as like a six -month project and now i'd say he's back You know, he's completely back. But it's interesting because, like... um If you would call that maybe community service, it's interesting. like
Speaker: Again, i think just on the internet, everything's blown up if you're a public figure. What he did is obviously bad. Is it... So bad that you had to spend... a hundred thousand dollars um and do all that. Obviously I think it's a very good thing, but I think it just goes to show.
Speaker: what people actually expect. Like, that's a lot. That is a lot you you have to do. I think it's really good that he did it, but it certainly maybe gives a framework for what might be expected from any celebrity who's cancelled. And I just don't think... all the time that people are able to do that. Mm.
Speaker: Um, Because... I think he would have done the work if he had gone to therapy and done a lot of stuff. ah But I think to win the public back over, that's what he had to do. Yeah. It's ah a social justice like. Yeah. Again, I respect him incredibly for that. It was like a genuinely like one of the most like crazy.
Speaker: Like. I was so surprised and amazed to see like how someone dealt with that. But it's like... I do also feel with like Slater. Well, she's like, well, what what am I meant to do? This comes up every few years and I donate.
Speaker: ah All the money I make from... from ah the my album, like, Vinyl Tales to that. Like... at some point you will have been given Like, $200 ,000, like, you know.
Speaker: And... a big sum of money is that proportional to what was said I mean maybe but like again like Going. There is no proper judge about this. It's just people online saying, no, it isn't.
Speaker: Mm. And maybe it's just like bought farms. And meanwhile, Mark Zuckerberg's like raking in the money. He's like, yay, yummy, more money for me. um Yeah, so...
Speaker: There's no real solution to it with this, which is kind of depressing. like Again, it's been 10 years or so since Me Too, and we still haven't figured out the kind of so what part, if they aren't like directly being sent to a court and going to prison. Well... My solution.
Speaker: Turn off your phone. If something is pissing you off. You can write one comment, sure, or you can send it to your friends and be like, get a load of this. Turn off your phone, go touch some grass. I saw a lady who was like...
Speaker: I used to be super in social justice spaces, but basically founded like a community space. Like basically just was like, fuck it. I'm getting a social work degree. Yeah. After all that, which is, I think. Um, something kind of valid like if we're talking about praxis and all these sorts of things like There is a way where it's like...
Speaker: if you practice what you preach like you can't i just think it's morally hypocritical to be participating in these pylons. While also... Otis is waiting by the door. He's waiting by the door.
Speaker: While also being like, I'm a prison abolitionist. It's like, well, if you're if you if you believe in that logic of abolition. That applies to people you don't like and who have done bad things.
Speaker: Uh... that you don't agree with. And... Can I end up with the story of... Oh, no, you go and then I'll end with my story. I'd like to add on to you, yeah, people that... you don't like and haven't done anything like they might have done something antisocial But...
Speaker: They haven't. killed some guy. Yeah. you know. They haven't. sold their body to the state. and killed a bunch of innocent people and and it's also a factor of Like, you know, this... Policing happens more in left -wing spaces than it does in right -wing spaces, so it does let... the right win. It just feels so counterintuitive um where it's like,
Speaker: If you're not perfect. then you can't be part of the club. um And that's why it's so much easier to get. to be grifted and join the pipeline and and whatever. Okay.
Speaker: What would you like to finish? I'd like to finish with a story. And this is something I returned to. Um... Like... fairly you know, fairly fairly often, you know, in terms of...
Speaker: like how I think you can actually go about making change. So this is the story of Daryl Davis. So he was a blues. pianist He's played with Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, B .B. King.
Speaker: Cool. Yeah, big, big ah blues musicians. so He's very famous for converting members of the Ku Klux Klan The Ku Klux Klan, sorry. away from being racist oh he's converted like dozens and dozens of kkk members This is how he did it. So...
Speaker: In 1983, he was playing ah country -western music at a white bar in Maryland, and someone came out to him and said it was the first time he'd, quote, heard a black man play as well as Jerry Lee Lewis. And he explained that, oh, well, Jerry Lee learned to play from black musicians and the white petre patron was skeptical and they had a drink. And he was like, well, I'm actually a member of the KKK.
Speaker: And they became friends. And then eventually they gave him contact details on the KKK leaders. And then he started interviewing them. Uh... And then... He meant...
Speaker: The Imperial Wizard of the KKK of Maryland, Roger Kelly. And he concealed his race for the interview. And he showed up basically like, I'm writing a book on the Klan. And the guy didn't know he was black. What, they just spoke over the phone? Yeah, it's kind of like Black Klansman. So if he comes to the motel, the the KKK guy, this is like yeah one of the heads of it in Maryland. He shows up with a bodyguard.
Speaker: With a gun. Like the the KKK guy. They hash it out. He leaves the clan. Eventually he's... the, daughter of his the godfather of his daughter of Daryl Davis wow Daryl Davis the black man he's converse this guy out of the KKK and He's so taken that when he has a kid. He always makes him his the daughter's like godfather. Wow. And he went on to do that for like dozens of clan members. And it's just always been a kind of guiding light to me because it's like...
Speaker: This is what it looks like to actively believe in second chances like these are people who are the cake It's the KKK. It is the most evil racist people of all time.
Speaker: And none of these people have been like necessarily like... you know been being like wow why are we donating to buth blah blah blah he's just sat down and he's talked with them and they've become not racist.
Speaker: over time and they've humanized it and I guess it's just like that's the society. Yeah, I think that... you know, giving people grace and... helping them get out of their own vacuum. I think that that's the way that.
Speaker: to move forward. Right? Um, um you know, that sort of thinking also you know. during denotification. If... you know, we still hold all German people to that same standard, right? I mean, yeah. kant The Treaty of Versailles was the original cancel culture. Oh, totally. Think about that. But I mean, that is kind of like, because it's like, they thought, wait, we didn't do that bad. And then it just bred discontent and then hit low. So.
Speaker: I'll end on a quote from Daryl. Okay. Which said, what I've come to find to be the greatest and most effective and successful weapon that we can use known to man is to combat to combat such adversaries as ignorance, racism, hatred, and violence is also the least expensive weapon. and the one that is least used by Americans. That weapon is called communication.
Speaker: Mic drop. Mic drop. This has been popularity contest. See you next week. Bye. Bye.
