Transcript
Speaker: popularity popularity popularity contest
Speaker: What's up? Listeners, what's up YouTube? ah My name is Kate Sarp. I'm joined by Sam Lane. Yes. And we are de the Pink Hair Nation. Pink Hair Nation. Also known as Popularity Contest, the podcast. And we're fiddling with gain levels live in the studio. yeah It just shows them, you know, how like boots on the ground. This is raw. This is raw. We are in a new location, undisclosed. Back room. Back room. This is legitimately a back room. No, genuinely. It's like underground. and all the way in the back of the place that we are. The place that we are, which we are not revealing. No, we are not revealing, but like IYKYK.
Speaker: um If you're watching. But if you're listening... It makes no difference to you. I will say the viewing experience is probably enhanced because we do have a ring light. We do. It's staring me directly in the face. Well, just... Just...
Speaker: Don't look at it. Yeah, I'm like looking. Well, that's why I brought these. I'm wearing sunglasses to look so I can look directly at the ring light the whole time. I mean, I can go get mine and put them on too, but no. Velvet Underground. I've, um...
Speaker: I've you know got new pink hair. I'm feeling very pink. um at the minute sam has pink hair as well yeah i mean kate was inspired by me Sure. um And you'll say, are those red or pink nails? I mean, like pink is a shade of red. Yeah, red. I mean, what happens is every so often I bite my nails too much and I paint them as like a...
Speaker: form of defense well actually a couple weekends ago i spent a lot of money at the beauty supply store getting all of the like home gel nails stuff so i can experiment and do give you a manicure I mean, I would actually like that because I i need to stop biting my nails. It's like a really...
Speaker: annoying habit and i just like constantly like kind of bite something and there's blood like sometimes like i'd nick a random part of my finger and it's it's not an attractive hobby no and you know what you just need a fidget toy And I think that that is what would save you. I need to bring a fidget spinner to places. Would it be more socially acceptable instead of biting my nails that I was just like at a spin? fidget spinner yes i had a really um hard meeting the other day and i brought my rainbow slug with me
Speaker: I was like, I know who I am. I know what my needs are. And that's totally fine. It's like layoffs happening at your company and you're like... Bling bling! We regret to inform you. you know, that you're being made redundant. The position's being made redundant. It's not you. We're just doing... No, I'm there with like... My needo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I've got one of those like bead slime things. Really thinking about that. You've got like a giant slinky and you're doing slinky tricks. Yeah. I've got a yo -yo and I'm going... We regret to inform you we're laying you off. Don't care. Cat cradle. Cat cradle.
Speaker: Yeah, um... And I think that would be incredibly appropriate to do. It's so funny. I live my truth. um I need a fidget toy. Fuck.
Speaker: i'm Sam, you know I've got so many. I've got that thing on me. I've got that thing on me. I have three liquids with me. I've got coffee, orange juice and water. So I have enough things to fidget with over here. That's true. I don't.
Speaker: have any liquids with me i'm kind of raw dogging it today yeah i'm a very overstimulated If you're new here, this is a ah podcast about trends, what's popular. And we're trying to we're trying to buy the dip. We're trying to get in just as the wave is cresting. Yeah, buy low, sell high. You're at the back of the beach, like just at the back of the waves. You find the perfect spot to bodyboard in. And it's like you're getting on as the wave's breaking. You don't want to be there when the the wave's already broken on you. You don't want it to happen to you. You want to be there earlier. um
Speaker: so Today's topic is... Leaving dating apps. ah Yes, we believe that people are getting off the apps. in a big way. And.
Speaker: I think... Can I tell a story? Absolutely. To start us off. Yeah, yeah. Because I think this this started for me. um about A year ago. When I used to work.
Speaker: ah in a co -working space. And so they're all these kind of startups. in like where my work was and one of them was a ah social club And I found that really interesting because I mean one of the ways that I think you can map like capital you know, with all its faults, is a very good like measure. It will sneak in and...
Speaker: be there first. It can be a kind of early adopter. for this stuff and i found it very interesting so this was a it was a startup right like it's it's getting venture capital funding it's trying to turn a profit but it was a social club and it's and on the website it was like we're trying to you know it had a lot of like discourse on the... on the
Speaker: the website and their socials about, you know, we're losing third spaces, like to be like, we need to increase the surface area for connection. That was what they said. And so the base surface area, yeah it's kind of corporate lingo. Yeah. But it was like, they run basically events. Like they would, they did a matcha rave. Like they would do.
Speaker: But like events and like it's fulfilling a need because I agree with the the aim. Like there is less community now. Like we're very atomized online. But I found that really interesting because it was it's kind of...
Speaker: you know, taking the space of dating apps. And there's a... bevy of other um like startup -y sort of things. There's Crush Club, which started in Melbourne, which has now just come to Sydney, which kind of runs... It's speed dating, but it's like... It's like.
Speaker: cool speed dating like it's just a singles night like they'll host an event at like ace hotel like like a trendy bar and then it's like 25 to 35 sometimes for these things you have to like pay. to get in.
Speaker: Because you can't hate from outside of the club. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a little interesting, me personally, like paying for that. But... Uh... Yeah, and I was just like, this is interesting. there's a whole bunch of discourse about. Like, oh my God, like kind of chic to meet someone in a bar. It's not cool to be on dating apps. No one who I speak to who's on dating apps is enjoying themselves. So that's my story. And I think as a former dating app. user um And, you know, sometimes it does work.
Speaker: um to my my listeners out there if that's what you want um And I just like... A lot of my... um, disliking for dating apps when I was using them is literally like you're learning how to market yourself.
Speaker: um And it's like, oh. I'm not a commodity. And I think that a lot. of what we are meant to do online with like digital platforming and stuff, or at least that like how it's set up.
Speaker: is... um that that's what you're doing. And it's like. I'm not a marketer or like I'm not a commodity. I'm like a whole. person and a whole being um and it to me you're just a series of instagram posts wow and i want you to know that From the bottom of my heart. But is it like well curated?
Speaker: they it's You fuck with it? It doesn't matter. It's a pure reflection of you, whatever you post. Yeah. That is extremely who I am. think I think that's beautiful. Yeah. But I do agree with you. It's quite troubling. And I i think self -marketing is really hard. Yeah. I've only recently become... Like better at it through like.
Speaker: you know work and stuff it's just something you need to kind of do ah yeah especially in like the creative industry totally it kind of comes with the territory because you're like advocating for yourself. It's like a totally different.
Speaker: Um, Like. What's the word I'm looking for? Not mindset, but like sort of playing field out there. You have to be, you're a number one fan. Yeah. It feels like, yeah, that it just translates onto dating apps. Totally. It's like, how can I.
Speaker: package myself up in five pictures and uh you know a hundred words or less or a couple prompts or whatever the the kind of...
Speaker: structure of the app is. And that's so hard. It's like... With these new... event platforms. um Even down to like Bumble or Tinder doing collaborations with AFL teams. Not going to say who at this point in time because that's contentious. Let's call them the Midney Mons. yeah um the The team from around where we record. um And, yeah, that you know it's like a...
Speaker: Sort of a... you know, like... a twofold thing where they're getting more fans um and they're getting more outreach but also It's like you know something for you to do and like find like -minded people. So to be clear, this is a dating app. partnering.
Speaker: with something to do it. in real life event yes which seems completely counterintuitive yeah for the from the data because it's like well don't you want people to be on the app Yeah. um And then you also like another thing. Yeah, you have to pay for it.
Speaker: It's like, ooh, I don't know. Again, that's another thing I find interesting about these, like this new wave of like. supper clubs and and what have you is that like i looked at one for like a trendy one it was at a nice restaurant in like the inner city or whatever And it cost fucking $90.
Speaker: Because it was like a, you know, whatever course meal. But it was so funny because they all preach about... Oh, like, there's not third spaces. You have to pay $90 to go to this thing to, like, have conversations with...
Speaker: 20 other people who work at the big four. consult Yeah. It's like you could also just go to the pub on a Friday night. and do the same thing. Yeah, just, like, like do what the rest of us are doing. But, um I mean, yeah, into into the the collapse, you have I believe there was a...
Speaker: We have in our research some other... What? Kind of insane stuff that dating apps are doing. Well, there is... um
Speaker: tinder did a collaboration with ucla a couple months ago um and you know to meet people in the in the real world they dance together as a 26 year old dj disco lines disco lines twoette no broke boys no new friends that's him yeah oh my god um played at the fowler museum at ucla um and you know instead of spending time on their phones people were dancing, you know feeling each other up.
Speaker: potentially people were whining uh wine pond the ucla grad yeah yeah um Can I one -point you, bro?
Speaker: Hey. Do you mind if I wine pomp the cocky? Do you mind if... Good morning. yeah No, it's good evening. Good evening, ma 'am. Would you terribly mind if you wind upon...
Speaker: That reminds me of um those guys on... um like instagram and tick tock they do the reels first it started off as that one
Speaker: white guy that he's like you know this is how you have etiquette um you know when you go to fancy dinners and stuff but then recently I've seen so many more where I can't tell if they're being for serious or not where there's this one guy who goes through and he does like different styles of english like in a means to say something so you know it'd be like oh yeah how are you going um and then he'll do the victorian air it's like how has your life presented you and does he get to like to like road man at the end and and i never get that far Wagwan. Yeah. That's good. But I think it's interesting like these apps that they're running because it it just feels like they're shooting themselves in the foot like.
Speaker: You're running a real -life event like don't you want people in the app so it's like why like Why are they doing, like... Are they desperate? so they I think they're probably desperate. um And, you know, it's like...
Speaker: part of a couple factors as well i think that you know a lot of people are right closer kate Yep. you You were kind of, whoa. Whoa. Bit of free jazz. um A lot of like people our age, you know, I'm going to bring it up, the big P, the pandemic, um that people stayed inside.
Speaker: And so the only way that you could have real connection or like meet new people was online. Yeah. um And I think. once. the You know, a couple years down the track, people were like...
Speaker: Aww. Maybe that wasn't a good idea. um But, you know, you get so lonely that you really have nothing else to do. um The match group. is the owner. of like hinge and tinder and a couple and grinder And Grindr, not Bumble though, because, you know, they made him, didn't they make a movie about that? Didn't they make a movie about how she like. the founder of Bumble, like got axed by Tinder.
Speaker: Am I making that up? I don't know. Are you? They call me misinformation. um Yeah, and it's just like... What's going on in the match group? Well, it's just that, like, first of all, they own everything. So, like, how can you actually do anything different when they're all, you know, like, you're all funding the same company? Shares in the match group um have gone down.
Speaker: since the pandemic where, like I said earlier, you know, people are kind of like, what why the hell am I still on my phone all the time? um And um so like the number of people who paid to use Hinge.
Speaker: did increase, however. Um. But... In the match group's latest financial report, they're seeing like... almost 700 ,000 people stopping paying for Tinder.
Speaker: which is like the original, I would say like hookup app. Yeah, so it's not being... Like, Hinge isn't offsetting the like the overall... That kind of trend. People are still leaving. Yes. um And I think that, you know, Hinge's whole thing is that it hinges haha on... like the app that's designed to be totally deleted and the joke here is that it's designed to be deleted because it's so fucking frustrating yeah um except for me
Speaker: Except for me. Love you, Harrison. um But no, like it is really hard out there. And I was thinking about this the other day, like, you know, advice to give to single people and single friends. Bear in mind, you know, I just had my one year anniversary with Harrison. So, you know, I know everything that there is to know about relationships. Yeah.
Speaker: I know everything yeah um And... Like because of the marketing thing. you only see the highlight reel like of the person or like what they're trying to project. um And that isn't necessarily always the...
Speaker: like true core of what someone might be looking for in a partnership i'm talking about like in monogamous relationships anyway i feel like We should. preface the conversation I mean we've already started talking but whatever we should have some sort of like
Speaker: clause where it's like yeah we're sort of talking more about like heteronormative like yeah monogamous relationships here i mean i think you know gay men have it kind of sorted out on grinder like that is one of the most efficient Oh, yeah. Book up apps of all time. like Like... You're in the same building as me? Great. Let's meet out the back. Let's go into a bathroom. yeah and wine pond the cookies. Yes, and wine pond that and then go back to work. Yeah, and I think that's beautiful.
Speaker: Because, I mean, this is the other thing that I found interesting. So I watched a SBS Insider. They did, like, a thing about dating apps a couple of years ago. And a guy who was an investment analyst spoke about, because he had invested in some of the in like in the match group and things like that. And he said, these things are bad investments. Like, they are losing money because...
Speaker: As much as they... mar And, I mean, this is the same thing, I think, even with the new wave of social clubs. It's still the same problem. Like...
Speaker: they so even all the all they all the grandiose stuff they have around oh we're here for social connection we're the app that's designed to be deleted they want they need money to survive They need money to survive. And how do they get money out of people? They restrict the algorithm. So if you're a man, it's but it's men who pay. It's it's on on at least on like the main, like the bigger apps. um The big four. The big four. The big four. KPMG, Deloitte, PwC, Ernst & Young.
Speaker: But... Anyway, I digress. ah They... You're paying for it. So if you're a lonely man, like... that there was a stat he had that was like, basically the top 10 % of men get like 90 % of the matches. Right. So, and I know a few friends like this, like I have, so I got some chad i know some hot men and they're just rolling in the likes. huh
Speaker: And like, they just get every, and then, but like. 90 % of men aren't getting everything. Meanwhile, women are getting every likes. Like, if you if you are a a woman on a dating app, you are bombarded, like, if you're heterosexual, with the most insane men I have ever seen ah in your likes. When I was single, you know, we would play, like... Play Hinge. Yeah, we would play Hinge, which is a whole... People at the pub, like, four people just swap phones. Yeah, which is...
Speaker: You know, it like also goes to show sort of the gamification of social connection. God, it's fun though. Oh, absolutely. Put it up on the TV. phrase I've done that before. Yep. Yep. That's a great time. And so either it's, you know, your friends going through your likes being like, what the fuck is this person saying?
Speaker: Or, you know, going through what the algorithm is. I never knew shorts could be that tight. like ah You know, I... if i had like prepared a little bit more i would have um you know god gotten some like screenshots that i still have in my phone the craziest guy um but a lot of the time you know it's like how has this person found me specifically like what in the algorithm has made them like, made the algorithm think that, like,
Speaker: I am someone that would be interested in someone being like, Oh. um why are you showing up on my page when you say that you're queer in your thing yeah i'm like Um...
Speaker: Shut up. Like you wasted a like, first of all. yeah to tell me that. Like keep it to yourself. I say i have seen in the past, like screenshots of dating apps, like a guy who's accidentally said his gender to a woman. And then like, someone had to be like, Hey, like, I don't know if you know this, but. You're said as a woman, that's why you're only... least and And he's like...
Speaker: Oh, fuck. That's what... happened Oh, wow. I knew it was weird that I was only seeing gay men. Oh, God. I want to now sort of circle back and think about yes why people would be leaving dating apps. Yes. We've sort of, you know, danced around the topic, but I think it's important. We've whined around the topic and now it's time to whine upon the topic. Absolutely. um So, I mean, from our from our research, I think just... from
Speaker: you know, experience. Like we mentioned earlier, you know, marketing yourself is really tiring, um especially when it's really hard not to sort of. Like. set that expectation and have really high hopes that, you know, first of all, you're excited to put yourself out there and date. um And then like the, you know, I guess it's sort of a rejection therapy almost when, you know, you really like someone's profile and you don't hear back from them or you exchange a couple messages. It definitely is character building. Oh, totally.
Speaker: um And I guess, yeah, like the tidiness is one thing. Potentially also that like... you know, where it's only really happened and you know since the beginning of the internet. that people are meeting online. Yeah. So... Really?
Speaker: is That. Like. Appropriate? Not necessarily appropriate, but like... It hasn't been happening for that long. I mean, here's the thing. I... i'm beginning to think that the problem... Like, the reason people are leaving dating apps and the reason there's a rise in these, like...
Speaker: other spaces like run clubs i would say fall into this and all the kind of Uh... you know, a new social club stuff that has popped up, the various supper clubs and things.
Speaker: I think people... ah like I don't necessarily think there's something bad about meeting online, but I think... People are cottoning on to the fact that these are monetized. Right. Like you, you, there is someone pulling the strings or there's like a company pulling the strings, showing you people.
Speaker: And I think there was kind of a myth about... that this was like a kind of agnostic. objective way that you could see new people in your area. ah Black pink in your area. Yeah. You're going to see single hot mums in your area. huh But. it's just it's not like these companies have a motivation to
Speaker: keep you on the apps and keep you paying. And I think that's kind of grating. And I actually think, and I'll get onto this, I think a bit later when we come to some of the cons of dating apps. Like, I think it's like setting us back. in terms of like, gender relations like i legitimately do but i'm also just not convinced now that the new wave of social clubs some of which are like venture capital things, are any better. Because... You still - like paying to play there and they're still kind of washing culture in a space.
Speaker: That is not particular like it's it's kind of it still feels kind of fraudulent like all the events they're running, like whether you have to pay for it or whether that like they're partnering with something and they're getting a kickback out of it. Like they'll never not do something that doesn't, turn they have to turn a profit. Yeah. So yeah, like fraudulent in terms of motive.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know if it's motive. It's like, but I guess it's like... Romance is something that is... is He's not tied to... Like. will should in my view like shouldn't be tied to like capital and whatever like you meet someone I've seen that movie Materialist yeah you meet people where you meet people and like I think all the moaning about like like that these venture capital social clubs do about third spaces. It's like,
Speaker: Well, you're not a third space. Well, like another third space. I guess we're close to the new one that's opened in Gould's bookstore. Which I believe we've already spoken about. What's it what's happened? The... um Book Club.
Speaker: well not book club so gould's ah r .i .p um was this like anarchist Bookshop. secondhand. place, closed for many years. Repurposed now by this group. Um, who have turned it into like a third space Japanese style 24 -7 cafe. Right. um And I guess that that's another sort of like a physical.
Speaker: um representation of what we're talking about, where these things are backed by investors. Except it's not a third space because you still have to pay to be there. You only get like three hours free a week or something. Yeah. I don't know how much study you can be doing in three hours a week. yeah When the library...
Speaker: is open and free well yeah and this is this is the thing as well it's like I remember reading... this is It's funny that Aziz Ansari wrote this book, which is funny. But it's about... It's called Bod and Love. And he wrote it, I don't know, five, ten years ago. And the interesting thing in this book is that it goes through and it's...
Speaker: Um... goes through the stats of how people met. And it was like the 1940s, you'd meet someone because... They lived in your building. Yep. like yeah Like, you know, the old New York romance. And now it's like dating apps and stuff. Now, I don't want to like say that these things are inherently bad, but I do think that...
Speaker: there's the rise of supper clubs and social clubs says that there is a yearning for a return to that kind of community -based. infrastructure that
Speaker: facilitates connection of of any kind like we we met at Community radio. Yeah And that is a space that... ah Like, it's not designed for this, but a lot of people... Dated. out of that and there's like a fair few like long -term relationships if not marriages that have come out of that space because that's legitimately a third space yeah like you were there and you could if you were volunteering you had a community of like -minded people uh and you were there at regular times and you met people and you make so many friends and things like that like that's that's what a social club is yes not this like
Speaker: fucking Oh, I'm doing like... I don't know, a matcha rave. Whatever. I think that's what an actual third space looks like. Well, yeah, because there's not necessarily like a strict criteria or payment barrier to get in in the first place. um and you know, the thing about
Speaker: community radio and other community things like that you know community garden or whatever So it's like with my grandparents, you know, I've been spending a lot of time with them recently um and then moved down the South Coast. And there's so many different community activities um that I really have been inspired by the retirees, um you know, with a community garden or community theater or something like that. I feel like.
Speaker: A lot of the time. um There's a lot of pressure. on the self. Well, I mean, maybe this is just me, but like self -imposed where it has to be like perfect and professional all the time. um But that's not what community spaces are for. The whole reason that. It's...
Speaker: got community in the name. is because it's like a learning space it's ah a coming together you can't you're building a commune if you can't yeah like or at least if there's money involved like You have to be kind of careful.
Speaker: um which is why like i mean i think so much stuff flourishes when there's a big welfare state like what one of I mean, this is i mean this is i mean semi -tangential, but I think kind of illustrates the point. One of my favorite bands, Belle and Sebastian. Oh, they're coming to Sydney. They are. I saw them last time they were out. um They formed because there was ah a program on the Dole in Scotland. where you could do like community service in like a music and do like a music program. And the winning band got like a demo recorded and that was there.
Speaker: first record. And I just think about... this sort of stuff. It's like, you can't treat things like art and romance stuff that is more in touch with the human experience. You can't.
Speaker: Like when you entangle that with a profit motive, something is lost. I don't know what it is, but you just have to like spaces that have no expectation, i .e. third spaces, i .e. like any kind of community -based stuff.
Speaker: it It allows for those like non -linear, non -capital based things to flourish. And I'm just like very skeptical. of the new wave of social clubs because of that reason. Yeah. um And I think. by becoming part of those sorts of like community spaces means that the the Like the lessons that you learn and the things that you take home with you are that nothing is ever really that deep.
Speaker: um And that you like. My takeaway from my time at the state, like at FBI radio um and all the other like volunteer work that I've ever done is more that it's just like, oh, I don't have to be perfect at something, but like I've given it a go yeah and I had fun doing it. And it's more just about like.
Speaker: being there, showing up consistently. Like that. acts as far more value and and again just also like when then you get out of this mindset of everything having to like lead to something and be productive because it can be so organic and that's what what i think is a better and more healthy social ah ecosystem for people to live in.
Speaker: which is why I think people are sick of dating apps. So, we should we go on to pros and cons, perhaps, of yes of dating apps? Do we have any pros? I think we can, like... I think, like...
Speaker: We should make the case. Okay, let's try. Do you want to start with the pros and then we'll go over for the cons? Because we do have a lot of cons. Well, yeah. I mean, pros, you... Maybe meet people that you didn't think that you would ever kind of come across in real life. um and I mean, to be fair, you are a success story. You were dating someone you met on a dating app. yeah You would have not met Harry.
Speaker: but the thing is like the more that we spend time with each other we're we're trying to make we're trying to make the case pro we're trying to approach your order i'm like so make the and you're like i you're like no actually actually i probably would have met him in real life but that's besides the point um He wasn't like I hadn't.
Speaker: Being. around him at the time, I guess, right? So... um I guess, yeah, a pro is that you meet someone that... You might not have. I think that same with like... um our conversation about like nerds in the internet as well you are sort of able to play and explore um maybe some other you know, you might date someone.
Speaker: that you didn't think you would you know like exploring your sexuality and things especially if you live in like a more conservative area or a rural area where there are less people it does mean that you're able to Like it's another means of human connection. Yeah. Which is very, you know, invaluable. I understand why.
Speaker: everyone was like looking on the dating apps whilst like you know during the pandemic or things like that like whilst you're at home alone um it's sort of a ah lifeline to like meet new people and things which is sort of um how people like you know use social media yeah um i i think like when i look back at um early internet culture and people who have like had relationships off like message boards and things i think there's a difference there like where those places again you didn't have to pay to
Speaker: To be on yeah the World of Warcraft message board where you met your online girlfriend. so That could be really wholesome and beautiful. Your Discord kitten. There is, yes. There is still that element that can exist. Yeah. The internet can bring people together. that hitherto would not have or would have been more difficult. Yes.
Speaker: I also think there is... a way depending on the app I mean, I have been on the app. field. As part of field research. Not field re... If you get what I'm saying. Yeah.
Speaker: What I'm saying is I've been... I have been on dates recently. I've been the lab rat for our conversation. And one thing I've noticed on this app as opposed to other apps is that it is... it It has more like filters and things for sexuality and what you're looking for. So I think if you build an... an app in a certain way.
Speaker: it does mitigate some of the problems insofar as like... you're able to express yourself. like closer to how you actually are like you reduce that delta And interestingly, on on field... it's It's more agnostic who is paying. Like, it's not just men. Men and women and non -binary and etc. are all... paying because it has like a poly and kink scene thing built in so people are a building community right on there which is ah something like that has always kind of existed online anyway Um,
Speaker: And so... I think there's stuff that they like on there, like if a couple is on there and they're... I don't know, that that is a little better. Like, it's it's still a lot of the same... problems i think like you know it's it artificially restricts you you can see and all that stuff but like that's a bit better because like hinge it was like you had men, women, non -binary. And that is like, there's so much going on in between. It's like, ah you know, you...
Speaker: There's so much that is yeah at the end of the day. We're all people You know? Fucking John Lennon over here. gender Imagine there's no gender. No, I read Haslanger. I'm a gender abolitionist. um I'm agenda.
Speaker: I'm agenda. Well, you have an agenda. I have i have an agenda and I have a gender. Good for you. Which one? You have no idea. I won't be revealing any information at this time.
Speaker: I'll have to have my lawyers present. Do we have any more pros? Oh, fuck me. I think... Hmm. feeling i don't like you know i mean easy validation i guess uh access to Casual sex if you wanna. Yeah.
Speaker: um okay Okay, now the negatives. Now the negative parts. well and Where do we begin? First of all, it makes you feel terrible about yourself. Yes. Uh... Right off the bat? Right off the bat. I mean, okay, I'm going to start.
Speaker: Like a bit of a zoomed out level. Okay, okay. There is, at the moment we were recording, there was like a bit of a there is a crisis of like ah violence against women in Australia. Well, one woman is murdered every single day in yeah Australia. At least. These apps.
Speaker: Do. fuck all to stop that they do absolutely nothing in fact i would say that they perpetuate it perpetuate it yeah like so that's that's number that's above everything else like A lot of the gripes that we will talk about are like things that are annoying. I would like to just like caveat again, clause at the start of this. Yeah. The the worst outcome for a woman on a dating app is probably being like murdered. Yep.
Speaker: and And these apps do like very little to dis solve that. They perpetuate it. They make men sad and incelly. Yep. ah And I think they are a bit of a cancer on society because of that. Oh, absolutely. I think that you know when...
Speaker: I was like, on them, you sort of, like, they're... Some of the ways that people can like avoid catfishing and stuff like that is you know you have a... Um, Like a... You hold up your ID. A verified account. Yeah, verified account, which is weird. Like, why do you need my driver's license? But, you know, I understand for safety reasons. I'm wondering, though, like, if they look through that, do they have access to... You should get a police check in order to be able to be on dating apps. This is the, like... Yeah.
Speaker: I don't think they're doing actually a good job, though, because, like, I mean... Here's the thing. And this is the other thing as well. they They have so much control over your life, and they use it in the worst way possible. Like, I remember...
Speaker: I got... and this has happened to a few people i know like arbitrarily getting banned off like a Hinge or Tinder or anything. So I got, like... I got back on Hinge and I guess they might might might have thought that I was like a bot or something. Right. Because i one day, like, I'd had the app for like a week and I got... I got banned. And then that means like,
Speaker: Two -fold, like... you know you can't really go back on unless you have like a new phone a new number Which makes you, which made me feel really like. disenfranchised dating wise like i felt like i wasn't going to find love which i know is insane today but also it was actually kind of easy to get back on it and i was like that's kind of scary well i mean i was like banned from tinder before i even got on there um
Speaker: Story time. Thanks, Louis, for that. um And. So like it was a week before my 18th birthday and in the app store, the app ratings are like 17 plus.
Speaker: And so like I was the you know the youngest out of all of my friends. And so you know they like they were like, oh, yeah, just like get on Tinder. See what's out there. I was like, yeah, OK. Because at the at the point in time, you could like have free passports. So you could like set your location to anywhere in the world. And I was about to move to Australia.
Speaker: This is you know the context for it. Anyway, so I like made the account and I put my real birthday in. Um, First mistake. yeah
Speaker: And it's not even like you you would have, like, catfished someone want a bit when who... They're like, oh, I'm 21. No, I'm actually like 18. Yeah, sorry about that. It's like... A week. You could have changed to your birthday by a week and been fine. No, but I'm honest. um and i always put my real birthday in anything that they asked me to put my real birthday in i'm really like pedantic like that not that actually they need to know but
Speaker: Also, you know, for birthday benefits. Yeah, of course. I want the birthday benefits. And what happened when you got on Tinder a week before you turned 18? So they didn't let me on, surprisingly. um And it was like a countdown of like, you can come on in like five days. no They locked me out of the club. It was really devastating. That sucks, man. um And then so like midnight on my birthday comes. I'm like trying frantically. You're sitting there gooning. Well, I'm trying to. I'm trying to log in and do all this stuff. I just got lipstick on the microphone. But I... It was like...
Speaker: Never let me log in. it Like I kept retrying and kept retrying. um And then I was like, fuck it. You know what? I'm just going to wait. ah So I waited a couple days. I had my 18th birthday spree. It was beautiful. um And then I tried to log in again. It was like, you've been banned. Oh.
Speaker: And there was no, like, I tried to look it up. You can't appeal these things as well. No, you can't. It's kind of insane. There was no, like, reason or anything. It was just like, you've been banned. There's nothing you can do.
Speaker: um And I tried to, I logged in again. um But I like made another account with. My. Australian phone number? um and logged in on my laptop.
Speaker: And tin you're on your laptop. And so I was saying, yeah, I was in for like, I'm on www .tinder .com. yes Oh my God. And I was in for maybe like five minutes and then they recognized like my IP address or something. And they were like, nah, fuck you. So.
Speaker: For, you know. I understand it's like child protection stuff.
Speaker: But like. If you're ah a sex criminal criminal, you can still get on there. Yeah, but it's like the... It's a very kind of strange thing. So that's kind of one, like... They're managed by big tech and there are problems with that and they don't do a whole lot to produce safety. What I think is... like maybe less talked about is some of the cons we're going to get onto, which is how I think like. The apps maybe engender. some of the harms later down the the track, right? So...
Speaker: I was having a conversation ah the other day with someone about like the idea of the princess treatment girl. Are you familiar with like like princess treatment people? Oh.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah like I'm one of them. I mean, I'm the i'm of walking yo the pink princess. So what would you describe like princess treatment? person as like what are they doing on a dating app this type of person um just sort of being like you know you have to pay for everything for me she's usually a very beautiful woman let's start there yeah i mean all women are beautiful Um...
Speaker: All right. Yep. And ah everyone is beautiful. um but it's like this sort of hyper feminine almost like borderline It's funny because it's not really like...
Speaker: baked in conservative ideology anymore it's more of it it's often like more like very smart and outspoken yeah and like otherwise like really type a but then they'll go on the app and be like Basically it's guerrilla warfare against insane men. Men ain't shit. They need to pay for everything. Yeah, so it's sort of like reparations. Even if...
Speaker: you know, the person that you end up being with. is like totally fine um and they're not like a scumbag first of all why would you be with that person in the first place but like it's um you know do you need reparations from that one specific guy who's just like trying to make your life easier i don't know yes that so basically what happens though is like There was like a...
Speaker: I would describe what has, what's happening on the apps. And this is a hetero thing. Let's yeah be real. yeah But like, you know, that's speaking for the majority. Preface. preface men are going like they're obviously they're insane very dangerous men on dating apps and what's happened is as a protection i think women like the princess treatment thing has arisen as a kind of guerrilla warfare against that it's like well if they're insane i'm gonna get a free dinner
Speaker: and an uber to and from out of this yeah and i on the app in the dating app uh episode on insight like this was something about quite common from the women who spoke like there was one who was like basically yeah like i use it to get free shit Like she was like everything in my apartment that was flat packed has been put together by a man I met on a dating app. Great. and it's like And it's like... I, it's... I think that's funny.
Speaker: It is funny. It's funny as hell. but it's a kind of race to the bottom yeah because it's also... It's that still patriarchal and that's still then affecting men. It's making men more men incels. I wonder then.
Speaker: If you're on the wrong platform, if you want to do that, you should be on seekingarrangements .com. Yeah, you should be on Craigslist. yeah You should be on Air Tasker. Yeah, you should be on Air Tasker, brother. um But i I think it's like... As much as I mean, it's I think it's obviously very funny, like this stuff. But at the end of of the the day, if we're talking about like trying to repair...
Speaker: the social dynamics between men and women. Um, It takes two to tango. And there is going to have to be a kind of reckoning. At some point. that.
Speaker: Wow. people are just going to have to get a lot cooler. With. not dating a guy who's like a six foot plus. Because he like has nothing to offer other than the fact that he's tall. I think this is the other thing that I found. and why there's this like litany of very angry, often short men who have become incels because this is what dating apps make you feel. Like the top 10 % of guys are getting 90 % of the matches. And that's like, just, it's stupid. And it's making people feel.
Speaker: Worthless. And again, this, again, I want to caveat and say, obviously none of this... excuses. Or like... ah Or any of the kind of insane behaviors like violence and stuff, but I'm saying that like you can stop it a bit earlier These dating apps have, I think, I would argue, responsibility, and maybe we as a society, to kind of intervene earlier.
Speaker: um Because I think... the patriarchy is leaking onto both sides. Of. of people in heterosexual relationships in this new way engendered by dating. app Well, yeah, it's sort of like, You're forced to either of the extremes and none of them are productive.
Speaker: I wonder then... Where do we go from here, Sam? Yeah, I don't know. I think people need to... I think work. this obviously this stuff like the stuff that chanel contos is doing with like teachers consent i the first thing is this starts a lot earlier than dating app oh yeah i think like this is dating absolutely the battleground for the broader kind of you know, ah struggles that we are having with ah violent violence against women and yeah yeah things like that.
Speaker: I will say that there is, I think there's going to need to be just like a lot of... Something I've noticed is there was recently a lot of discourse on TikTok about... women not wanting to date bisexual men.
Speaker: And stuff like that like there's stuff that's popping up that I think we need to kind of keep an eye on that's coming That are patriarchal ah attitudes that either are expressed by women or men. Obviously, it's mostly men. But I think you need to...
Speaker: As much as it's, again, like, as much as it's fun to be, like... oh my God, men ain't shit, princess treatment. You're still going to, if you follow that logic, you're going to end up in a trad wife relationship. Oh yeah. And I think that's problematic. Like you, to some extent you, you got to.
Speaker: be the change you want to see in the world, which even though it can be quite difficult. And I think it, you know, in terms of like a monogamous relationship anyway, you just treat people with kindness and respect. Yeah. um It's very basic stuff. No, my run sheet. But, um... I don't and you know. like you carry my bag when i'm feeling down i'll carry your bag when you're feeling down and it's a matter of like you know being supportive and understanding where people are at um And you can't, I feel like.
Speaker: Because... I mean, for us anyway, we've grown up. online and where like identity is everything. yeah And I think you and I have both experienced this because I think...
Speaker: obviously like even though you and I are like quite mask and femme presenting. Like, I think we both have. had our struggles with not feeling super. in our gender.
Speaker: because of the way Like, we look. Like, I think I've found it as someone who's shorter. Like, definitely. you know, experience a kind of discrimination based on that and you've spoken about like feeling like guys being weird about dating someone who's a bit taller and things like that yeah Um,
Speaker: And it's tough. It's tough out here. And I think we've been forced to like learn and just be like. kind of interrogate. Our preferences. And I really hope that more people do some self -reflection. I think will you will realize that a lot of your preferences.
Speaker: Odd. like they're just patriarchal. Like you probably. Um, don't like as a guy you don't need like a tiny woman to make you feel like a big man and vice versa I think that's Even though there are aesthetic preferences I think people do need to do.
Speaker: introspection because i think it's a all kind of big girl read a book about gender abolitionism um and educate yourself um i think then you know In terms of performative men, it's good that they're reading Sally Rooney and bell hooks and stuff because that everyone needs to read that. I mean, I agree with Lucy Dacus. Yeah.
Speaker: The guy with the dangly earring is not the enemy. Like, why are we hating if he's... We've got to help him. He's becoming, you know, we are we are asking for men to be softer. And then when them the performative men were angry at them when when they when they do. It's kind of difficult. But I think the way out of it is just...
Speaker: Again, this is the kind of perverse way that dating apps make you look at people Like your cat we're categorizing them where yeah he's a performative man. Oh, he's got Deloitte face. And this stuff might be true.
Speaker: but it's not a way that I think you can relate to people that will give you any like long -term fulfillment. Don't judge a Chad by his ah XP level. Okay. Okay. Great. And with that.
Speaker: I think the episode is finished. I still have some thoughts. You have some thoughts? Yeah, I was go to i have some trend forecasting. Oh, great. i so try what they im learn don't And with that...
Speaker: Let's do some trend fullcasting forecasting. So we have seen... Basically, the rise of run clubs, the rise of these social clubs, ah the rise of... these debt The dating apps can see they're writing the wall. They're... they're doing in -person events, okay?
Speaker: hear hear Hear me out. Yep. Next year? The Sydney Marathon or some big run club. Partners with Hinge and Bumble and there's a singles wave. oh for the race. There's a singles wave for the race and you can shout while you run and then afterwards you all go to a bar and and chat. I think that you like fill out a profile. whilst you're applying for the marathon. Yes. And they match you up with someone. With a runner, like a buddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: I think there's going to be much more that I think ah we're doing. Okay, what are some other things? I think you should introduce your friends to your other friends. I completely agree with that. It's like, why are you friends with this other person if you're embarrassed to introduce them to your other friends? I played Cuba this week. I set two people up. How did it go? Well, they're going on a date this weekend. I hope it goes well. Fingers crossed. I think like...
Speaker: I mean, this is what I found funny about... dating apps as well with meeting people. The people I've met on dating apps, it's not that they're bad, but like... some of the relationship, like I was in a relationship. that I was on a that I met through a dating app and after it ended I was kind of like It was weird. I went on there to be like,
Speaker: Figure it out. my preferences a bit more and and maybe date it outside what I thought I wanted just to, you know, experience. But then really I came out of that being like, well, there's a reason I haven't met this person in real life. I don't actually think at the end of the day we had that much in common. So I think finding ways to meet people and relate.
Speaker: In your community. I think that is. Extremely. powerful yeah uh and can do a lot not and just approaching it as well as like trying to build a social ecosystem And then from that. things will come.
Speaker: Yeah. Like just. I think going in with less ego. So I think the wholesome side of it is I hope more people work. you know, go to their community garden. Yep. But there are I think we are going to see gradually more and more cursed dating app activations. I think that'll happen first. And they realize that...
Speaker: the majority of people don't really fuck with them. and NRL run it straight challenge and they do they they so you do speed dating and people and that your match with someone who runs it straight against you and they give you a concussion. Yes. And then you go and get beers. Well, and that's the best way to meet someone. Pitch me another one. This is fun. Okay. Pitch me another insane dating app activation.
Speaker: Okay, um you go to the Lego shop. and you build a house together and like if you can stay calm under pressure, then you go on a date with that person.
Speaker: that's a good one yeah introducing
Speaker: tinder x pride for allies oh god A section of Mardi Gras for people who aren't gay.
Speaker: ah And also don't drink. and No, no, no, no, no. They're they're serving Han super dry for the boys at this, and they're serving vodka lime sodas for the gals. Yep. So it's ah it's an ally section of Mardi Gras for people who... Uh... want all of the fun night out in the town, but not really down with the gay stuff. No, they're not doing the gay stuff. And so they're in their own section, ah and it's a singles event at Pride, at the Mardi Gras parade for straight people. This is fun. I'm having a good time with this. I think that someone will actually do that. This is the thing. yeah You're suggesting them, and then you're like, wait, someone will actually do this. Some fucking idiot will do that. What's another cursed to one? I think. Oh, like something sponsored by Thales where like you guys, you know.
Speaker: do like some sort of missile making class together. um i I would say there's like companies integrating like singles nights. Like we've come all the way around, like. hr verse being like a company sanctioned singles night like a deloitte x kpmg audit mixer like but like explicitly for hooking up yep Yup.
Speaker: um Not just a regular office Christmas party. no that This one has like a real, that's like the the premise of the. the meat yeah that's in the event description because these auditors are gonna Fuck. I'm trying to think. Sorry, there are so many more that are coming to like me my head now. They're going to short the stock exchange because they're like fucking on the keyboard. Oh my God, the Dow Jones. I'm trying to think of more now. Okay, we'll do one more. One one more each. Okay.
Speaker: Here's one. Okay, I actually quite liked my and NRL run it straight challenge. You'll match with someone and they run at you. I digress. Okay. What's one? Okay, the logical end times of ah run club. You run.
Speaker: Uh... To a... Actually, no. I'm going to... No, I get it. You run to like a wedding chapel. And the person that you get to there with, that's the person that you're marrying. And it's a collaboration with Mass. It's an official run club. Sponsored by the Catholic Church. Sponsored sponsored ah sponsored by... Nine Network. My Microsoft co -pilot.
Speaker: Hey, Claude, can you write my vows for me? That's what's happening. so In brief, we think this is going to get worse before it gets better. There's going to be... There already is, but there's going to be...
Speaker: a wave of social clubs that say that they are about community but you have to pay to get in and then i think we're gonna get sick of them and they're gonna be the new dating apps and people gonna get sick of them Um, And there's going to be then another like new thing that it's claimed to be a third space, but actually paying. All the while your community garden is right there. Yep. Begging. Yep. Gaping hole right there for you to. Please. Please plant something and feel normal. yeah You could be whining upon the community garden. Yep. You could be Whining Ponder Gardener. Whine Ponder Gardener. Yep.
Speaker: Well, with that said... I have to go to a meeting. And i I don't know what I'm going to be doing, but it's been a pleasure. And I mean... I'm still on the dating. um um and godpeed And Godspeed. Godspeed. And aren't I just having a great time? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. All from us to you.
Speaker: Subscribe. Subscribe, listen, wherever you can. ah Comment down below. Leave us star ratings. Tell your friends, foes. uh hinge dates yeah i think that um this is a Perfect thing to send any, um match you know, any match. You match them, you send them ah ah yeah you suddenly like a... google driveway Yeah,
Speaker: okay all right bye
