Transcript
Speaker: popularity popularity popularity contest
Speaker: Hello, my name is Kate Sarp. And I'm joined by Sam Lane. And this is the popularity contest. It's a podcast about trends.
Speaker: And some other stuff. Yes. It's a variety show. I would like to call it. It's a variety show. We will have a musical act later. I haven't told Kate. I'm going to sing. the Me and Exo, who's the plush toy I'm holding, if you're watching. If you aren't, um he's an ugly doll if you remember them.
Speaker: Is that like the genesis of Fuggler? um This is so old that I can't even tell you. I just told them they were called Ugly Dolls and they there was an Ugly Doll movie and they were so ugly they were cute. And this guy, his actual name is...
Speaker: Um... Ox because it's O -X. Because he's one eye that's an X, but I called him XO. Wrong way around. Don't know why. Maybe I was reading Arabic as a kid. On the right to left languages. True. Think about that. Isn't it also like um you read Japanese like books back to front? Yes, yes.
Speaker: Well, for you know.
Speaker: For Japanese people, that's what I'm talking about. Well, I am what they would call an otaku. That's the Shane Gillis line. You know what, Trisha Paytas has probably had like a Japanese era as well. Yeah, we're talking about her because she's coming to our shores. Bursting at the seams. I'm really excited. Talking about the Trisha Paytas era's tour. Look, I haven't gotten tickets yet. but I'm hoping that some sort of guardian angel will come from above and hand them to me. Stop pointing at me. I need my media connect, Sam. So is she performing at the TikTok Entertainment Center? She is performing at the TikTok Entertainment Arena. It couldn't be anywhere else. No. It couldn't be anywhere else. And she'll probably sell it out as well. It's a big venue. Trisha Paytas is doing a DIY house show in Asheville. She's doing a DIY house show.
Speaker: Yeah, a DM for Abby. yes address will be released on the day to all ticket holders BYO. BYO. No pass outs. No pass outs. No glass. BYO everything. You know, within reason, this is a safe space.
Speaker: Um, but yeah, I just think like it's called the eras tour. Which is iconic. Era as in like Taylor Swift era or error. No, no, no. Like Taylor Swift, Error. That's so funny. Yeah. Errors? Errors? Surely Tay Swizz has a... ah What? Copyright on that.
Speaker: Probably, but you know, it's it's Trish P, so she can do whatever she wants. wherez wo My favorite two rappers. I love Trish P. I love her longevity. Because I remember coming across her as like...
Speaker: oh my God, this, this, here's the woman who is like so obsessed with fake tan. Cause her, her name was, was it blonde sundial for MJ? That's like, that was her handle. Yes. Right. Like initially. And it was like, she was made her name there. And like,
Speaker: people was like you know all the plastic surgery and stuff she got and there was kind of this They freak. carnival like thing that she was observed by but she's transcended all of this has become a pop culture force well yeah and she's like yeah guys I'm a mother of two now. I feel like people keep trying to pigeonhole her into this like... you know,
Speaker: Obviously. you know, mentally ill or like a 20 year old that needed help, um, crying on her bathroom floor. And I mean, she's had a fair share of relationships. It feels like every time I would tune into a video of hers, you'd be like,
Speaker: why he dumped me. and know And it's like the eighth one and I was like, wait. I'm confused. He's like, where when did this happen? But she's she's gone through it. and Also, what's quite good is her ASMR videos. Have you watched those?
Speaker: yes fuck she's actually she's really good at the she'd like she does like the yeah like all the beauty ones or she she did one that was like i'm kidnapping you which is hysterical which are the only ones i can fall asleep to It's like people listening to true crime podcasts. I go, what is wrong with you and your dreams? like Your subconscious must be fucking crazy. That's me. I was saying I woke up in the middle of last night. like I've been sleeping weirdly. it's because i' been Maybe it's because I've been watching The Wire. Watching some hard -boiled crime drama and I wake up like in the middle of the night like, o how much do they didn need to have a wiretap on this thing? We've got to get an affidavit to the court.
Speaker: Whoa. And wake up. that's I should have mentioned that. That's what I say when I wake up in the middle of the night. I should think about it. Trisha Paytas has kidnapped me.
Speaker: um I would love to, though. I would love to be her child. I think that would be an awesome. yeah Also, inheriting like her closet. Wow. think she would be i like I think she would either be like the greatest mum of all time.
Speaker: Or an absolute fucking basket case. And there was no in between. And I think that it's the former. i Yeah, I actually weirdly bet. Because I think there would people be people out here being like, oh, like she's not going to be a good. I think she will, weirdly. I think that she's been through so much that she'll kind of shield her kids from...
Speaker: from it absolutely i think that that's something like that too and i really hope that you know her kids um What is it? Rainbow and something else. Yeah. i she She's not giving these kids normal names. Let's be 100 % clear. And, you know, her husband is... Gila Klein's brother. So we won't, you know. Really? Yeah.
Speaker: Wow. Israeli husband. Moses. Whoa. Holy he fuck. Okay. He parted her sea or whatever. I don't know Fuck. Okay. Trisha Page's Jewish question mark? Hey, one of us. Are you going to? um Investigate. but It's like transvestigating. Juvestigating. Anyway, if she didn't convert, that means her kids are like me, a half breed.
Speaker: like We're cold. And you know what? So you would fit right in. here I would fit right in. That's um beautiful. So if you're watching, you'll notice ah Kate is holding a book. The book is called Lovesick by Lillian Telford. A raw and tender portrait of love modern love in all its messiness. um That brings us to the theme. of today's show. What is the theme?
Speaker: Today's theme. Is misery slop. Misery slop. And we wanted to, we did a book club. We read this book together. yes This is Sam's copy. I left mine at home. Soz. And I, you know, this is Lillian's first novel. Lovesick is based in Brisbane. Of all places. afghanistan Briz Vegas. Brizganistan.
Speaker: I've never heard it being called that. Sydney Phillips calls it Brisganistan. And you know what? She's so right for that. Quite quite funny. I love her. um But yeah, look, first novel.
Speaker: um And when why did we pick it up? What did I tell you to do when you went to the bookstore? ah Have a look at the new arrivals or or bestsellers and find... the sloppiest romance that you could. Yes. But not in terms... Not slop like in terms of like slob on my knob. Yeah, it's not smut. It's not smut. It's not smut. It is like...
Speaker: It really should have used a couple more edits. Before it got published. Or just like... I guess more I was like... Kind of like... Find a normal people type beat. And that's kind of like...
Speaker: what I mean, we were discussing this earlier, and I'm going to steal Sam's line here, where like you know the the romance novel of our generation, I guess, is Normal People. Yes. And unfortunately, it's just... Sad. And sad. And a bit more sad.
Speaker: That means a bad book, but it's certainly... The prevailing mood of I think the 2020s. Is is sadness or at least until brat summer came around But that might have just been a blip.
Speaker: It's sad. like it's it's i just remember covid obviously very sad time it was normal people it was phoebe bridges Uh, and depression. Yup. yup And just like looking at, I was just like, I feel like. Phoebe Bridges just released her new record.
Speaker: Lost Weekend. And it's funny. Like, I think it's a good record. I... I never was like fully on on the train of like the boy genius. Um. If you just think I like it, it wasn't like... but Yeah, we were just like thinking about this like there's all this media that's so sad. It's still going.
Speaker: And we're the saddest generation. Oh absolutely. ah My thing though with like... normal people. And this book as well. They do say, you know, that it's a like pretty realistic, like modern day love story, whatever.
Speaker: But I think it's just because these people don't know how to talk. to each other. Yes. And so, but it's like, The books, both of them would be over. If people were. honest about how they felt and they had all of the tools for effective communication um And I feel like that is probably the biggest lesson.
Speaker: Um, ah or the biggest like thing about it being a modern day romance is like, People are very. afraid I think, you know, there's – it seems like there's the – feelings police or or whatever you want to call it out there where it's just like.
Speaker: Your... Um, There's some sort of panopticon where you're not allowed... to make mistakes because it is like all or nothing maybe that's just the way that I yeah see things as well. It's a Gen Z thing, like digital surveillance. We should zoom out a bit, I think. Yeah. Because, like... we were just thinking about like think about this The prevailing i'm thinking novel or text about romance. This...
Speaker: decade. Is normal people. Yeah. Right. Or like. Arguably one of them. Think about the 90s. It's ah Sex and the City. Which is I mean obviously like it's a much more upbeat light -hearted like it's Siri and you learn lessons from it, but the same issues of like being in your twenties and dating.
Speaker: it's like kind of they all take it in their stride like it's kind of a fun game game to them yes and you think i just think about the kind of march from like it's gotten progressively sadder over time. Like, you had Sex and the City, then in the middle there's Girls.
Speaker: Mmm. And then we end up at normal people. To me, I don't know. it just i Maybe that's a bit of a long bow to draw, but... That seems to be kind of the... ah And in the in the between girls and normal people, you have Frances Ha.
Speaker: I just would like to put that in there which is a fantastic movie. I don't know, things have been getting progressively sadder with how we've been dealing with, like, mid -20s. Whatever. Which has always existed. I mean, think of I think about like movies like The Graduate as well, like an older one, Mrs. Robinson. yeah like that that's a funny one as well like i don't know just like thinking about these depictions And it's just...
Speaker: I have these conversations like between... Nolan Pable, Fabie Ridges, everything. There's his axis of sadness. that represents being a young person. and being in love.
Speaker: And why? Because why is it all sad? I think... The... The main frustrating part. about the characters in this book.
Speaker: to do with the sadness. is that... They have... all the other tools that they need to succeed, like... wealthy, like coming from a wealthy family, a loving family.
Speaker: um And yet. They choose. to sit. In this. Like. awful feeling um where they, you know, literally... Gordon, the the love interest.
Speaker: His mum, like, left when he was... you know spoiler, I don't care, left when he was really young. and they're like really young really young um and he's like his whole life he's like you know older siblings and his dad never really spoke about it because it's like a traumatic thing yeah But.
Speaker: Because of the lack of communication, they let this kid internalize the whole thing. um which is not fair and that's bad parenting. um But he, I mean, I guess...
Speaker: To cut you off for the past a little bit, even though he, like, it's about Gabby and Gordon. Yeah. Those are the two the two love interests. and Gordon, even though he has this sad thing, has a stepmother basically his whole life and has a functioning family unit. Exactly. The whole time. And Gabby is even... I mean, even more well -adjusted. She's two barrister parents and she seems to have kind of nothing except...
Speaker: um mid -20s kind of angst. Which, I mean, is obviously can lead you to make decisions that are bad. But I guess the point... What man he is like. that there's not like it's The sadness in this book is kind of gratuitous.
Speaker: It's just like... like i said you know they they put it on themselves it is it is much easier to be sad because like it's not like you have to change anything we'll talk about that more later in the show um but I want to sort of do a literary analysis of the book. This book is... Because it is book club. It's book club. This book is, I think, a really good...
Speaker: kind of lens through which to view this genre because I I i feel like this is the the dying ebbs of the misery slop as a genre of of all the kind of, you know, mid -twenties. books where you have two characters who go to fucking art school who don't talk to each other properly which is what normal people is and that's something so again i think this is nothing on sally rooney i think she just wrote a good book and people are trying to copy it well absolutely um i mean it's like the amount of phoebe bridges clones there are out there like it's it's just i don't know become a thing and the fuck this book was a real tough slog it was a real fucking slog and then i felt bad because we picked it randomly but she's a first time walter yes i mean like it
Speaker: it doesn't really help her case where um The book is dedicated to everyone that said she would never be able to write a book. like She does the Kanye West. yeah i guess Oh, I had i had a...
Speaker: ah see A leaf on me. i go ah People would ask me what would happen if I didn't win. I guess we'll never know. That's what she does at the start of the book. But... Also, you have to take into account that.
Speaker: She... only was able to write the novel Because she won a prize. And I think who else. Was entered in the prize that this woman. won Yeah, I don't know. and And also, I mean, some other context for Kate. fucking loads the musket here and is ready to go because she has like 20 billion dot points yeah i'll say this about the book uh
Speaker: it's It's... She's signed like a multi -year deal with a big publisher. Which I think is only interesting insofar as like yeah it's completely clear that publishers... are finding value in this genre. ah And also...
Speaker: She, like all the reviews on Goodreads are kind of from advanced copies. um being sent out to people like the reviews on this like are quite high and i think that's just because it's been sent out to like book talk Yeah, or you know, like her Close. friends or colleagues or something. And that's kind of where we were just like, oh man, this is just getting too much. So, I mean...
Speaker: Kate has about... ah Yeah, i've got ah I've got a note worth. 20 dot points. ah So this is... Kids. criticism of the book. Love sick. Lillian. If you're ever listening or watching to this, um please know that I think it is really hard to write a whole novel. So hats off to you. This is with love. I think you have been i think you've been suckered into.
Speaker: writing a genre. that the publishing industry wants you to write. Which I think she also kind of wanted to try. it but Yeah. And you know what? I think that if you love reading these kinds of books, that's books that's great that you were able to engage in. um the, I guess,
Speaker: broader like, you know, creation and zeitgeist or whatever. Get to the, you're like. You can't pull punches. So, Lillian, I am a magazine editor. um And I have been for a while. So my criticism is not unfounded. Mine is, but mine's unfounded. But, you know, i with peace and love.
Speaker: This is what I have to say. So look. First of all, I don't know how much you can romanticize Briz Vegas. Because... like Criticism number one, Brisbane. Yeah, Brisbane. And you know what? She like she tries really, really hard. like Um.
Speaker: You know, I think I've maybe been to Brisbane like twice. So maybe I should just go back. Maybe this is me. I'm being too nice. Is this... The main character, Gabby, she has an apartment in the West End, which I think is like... The West End is the trendy part of... Yeah, it's, you know... the new town of Brisbane it's the new town of Brisbane
Speaker: um and it does feel a little bit like it's the soho of brisbane It's the Bushwick of Brisbane. Okay, it feels a little bit like she is hating from outside of the club because she never got in. And like Sally Rooney, normal people, a lot of her books are self inserts. This definitely does feel like one.
Speaker: um And... I like it's off. the I was reading this off the back of hearing about... Um, Two years later, which is that other TV show that was released.
Speaker: ah which was also romanticizing Brisbane. It's a post -COVID thing as well. It sort of set in that kind of era. um And yeah I can definitely tell that.
Speaker: Lillian and I are the same age because this does sort of lean into that Wattpad style where it is a lot of telling rather than showing. And I am excited to see how her prose progresses through her book deal. um And... Look.
Speaker: I think that it's interesting to use like multimedia.
Speaker: to tell a story intertextual is always really fun except i don't know why you're using reddit Oh, yes. Gordon. As a literary device. Shakespeare had a science.
Speaker: Gordon has r slash... ah mummy issues r slash mummy he's like yeah reddit post where he'll be like It'll just be randomly interjected and I'll be like, what? because And also the the chapters like alternate between Gordon and Gabby and Gordon is...
Speaker: Po - po - -breakup Yes. And Gabby is post -breakup, which makes it very confusing. No, but... Towards, like at some point it does change. It converges at the end? It converges at the end. Which is kind of confusing.
Speaker: And i get I get so lost. I get so lost. He also has like a ah wonderful relationship with his grandfather. that like never really gets discussed. Um. But he's like inherited his house.
Speaker: Yeah. I wish that could be me. All right. Um. yeah look and so i know that i'm not the intended reader for this but i think you are but i think you are this is the thing you're we are in our mid -20s and we have both like i don't know you're in a relationship now but like we were both at some point dating and being miserable yeah that's true like All right. Can I jump in with my Helen Garner?
Speaker: go for it stuff which is I read ah Monkey Grip by Helen Gano. You know, is in semi -close proximity to this book and i think that's another interesting view of like That's a self -insert in Melbourne because the criticism Garner got at the time, which is interesting because she's just released her diaries, Helen Garner. Oh. And everyone criticized her being like, at the time when she released Monkey Grip, being like, this is just your diary. And she was like, no. And then 50 years later, she's like, yeah, it was. Didn't you fucking love it? And I found it really interesting because it's like.
Speaker: This is how a much better way of... portraying difficult relationships and misery and in text because Reading that book, I was like, well, here are also two fucked up characters, but they have actual problems. Like...
Speaker: hell Helen Garner's character has a kid. And she's dating a hero. That's so fucked up to have a kid. Yeah, but like she's like in her 20s and she has a kid. And then the other guy, a Java, who's the love interest, is a fucking heroin addict. oh And we're like comparing it to like... a guy that - His mom left, but like has had ah a... stepmom his whole life in a stable loving family unit and girl who literally has no issues I'm sorry Gabby has nothing and just what looking at that it was like like
Speaker: I don't know I think publishers have taken the wrong example from the success of books like Normal People and Monkey Grip where they're like the lesson of this is people like sadness which is I don't think Is...
Speaker: always true. Like. I don't know, like, because Those are the two books they don't like glorify, it whereas this book seems to be kind of like... You don't - you don't come out of this being like i've learned anything about romance no um and you're like well it was sad Yeah, I don't think that... Like, it doesn't really seem like these guys actually like each other other than, you know, they met at a club when they were both on caps. I feel like that.
Speaker: It's... you know, kind of a bad pretext to starting a relationship with someone being like yeah it was a you know a drug influenced hookup. um And I guess like...
Speaker: When... It's making me think about like in the context of normal people, there is a class element to it as well. Where, you know... Connell's mum is Marianne's family's cleaner. Yes.
Speaker: But here. Like her parents are barristers, but... His parents seem fine as well. they see Everyone seems to be like, you know, upper middle class. So I don't.
Speaker: Like... That kind of has no sort of weight to... the the story either um i think it's more so just like a yeah i've like got a family or whatever yeah it's nice that they lean on each other sure yeah but It really doesn't matter. And I think...
Speaker: That. The most interesting actual... analysis that this book does of real life is like female friendships. Yes, I agree. um The Roisin character. Yeah, so Roisin is like...
Speaker: um Gabby's i guess kind of codependent best yeah codependent best friend um who ends up in a relationship with this other woman that's like not. nice um And it's like cheating on her actively and Gabby and Roisin, you know, end up.
Speaker: falling apart or like not speaking. But Roisin like then moves to Ireland, which I guess is another like, you know, normal people call out or whatever. But like. You know. She describes her friendship in such... Wonderful detail.
Speaker: um And it is really touching. And I think that like... as um a young woman too like i've definitely had friendships like that as well But I think that that. would have definitely been something more interesting to focus on. yeah um And then this whole Gordon thing.
Speaker: is like extra to that. Because, you know, she talks about like, oh, yeah, you know, Roisin and I, we like hook up all the time when we go out and we get drunk. But like, it's just for fun. And I'm like, girl, you don't seem like you like to kiss your boyfriend, question mark. um and you know like that also hooks up with a himbo doctor She does. She's cheating on his partner. Well, and that's the thing too, which is more of a conversation of like... her
Speaker: choosing to be upset. and choosing to be sad the like her point of view starts with her getting back With. one of her exes that she fucked over yes so i think that It's like an acknowledgement and a realization of like awe.
Speaker: I have treated people really poorly, but I don't know how much. actual personal growth happens. for the protagonist, Gabby. in the novel. I think that I would have you You know, but everyone's complicated. I'm being nice about it again. you you You're always like, you're always like, people multifaceted is like a caveat. Be meaner, Kate. Like, you have... Like... I think you can because I think like this is my issue with this genre, which is like.
Speaker: you know, at what point does exploration of issues that are sad. Just like perpetuate them in society. Perpetuate sadness. and i Let's come clean. ah Kate and I are both medicated. uh,
Speaker: on like i We are both on SSRIs. yeahp Are you on SSRIs? Yeah. Yeah, I'm on SSRIs. We are both on SSRIs. We're not saying mental health isn't real, but... Certainly in our own journeys with it. And I think this is something common to some friends.
Speaker: There is an element where... You know, I know people who will continue to choose to be sad because it's easier. Totally. It's easier to remain because trauma is hard and whatever. but What I find difficult about this genre, and I think Love Sick kind of pushed me to the edge of this, is like...
Speaker: What happens when... The... you over index on the gratuitous sadness without actually heaps of Like... crazy backstory. Because again, in normal people...
Speaker: you know, There's an overlaying of class and... Bruni is very delicate with the way that she treats the characters. And you're able to get ah an insight into them in...
Speaker: Monkey grip. You are like, again, these people are facing problems. You're like him. One is literally a fucking heroin addict. But it feels lighter. Like, it's funny that the issues in that book are much heavier, but it feels lighter. I think it's in... And it's like this book, it has none of that. Like it's both... The issues of the characters are pretty trivial.
Speaker: and It just feels like there's that image of someone in a in a bird cage, but there's only two bars. Insert picture here. Insert picture here. That's what this book felt like. and I guess I'm just like...
Speaker: That's what's so fascinating to me about this whole genre of... Music, fashion, film. with Music, books, film, television show that are just... Sad. All the time. And so sad. And everything's so sad. And oh my god. Isn't that beautiful? Because what does it. Does it help. Is that helpful?
Speaker: is that Is it helpful? Fuck no. um I think. all of this Fuck no. Fuck no. All of this sadness, um sad media has really made me think about what we were shown growing up too. like 13 Reasons Why.
Speaker: um or other like dystopian kind of YA fiction. I think it is off the back of post -war. post -modern.
Speaker: um ideas where like the world is just chaos all the time um And nothing is ever good. And so you know what? Let's just keep that going because that's what's happening. um And it is really challenging.
Speaker: To like. break the status quo, I guess. And like, feel positive about something. yeah And I think You're able to do that. When you actively...
Speaker: make your world smaller. Not in like a I'm never speaking to anybody again, but really focusing on like your immediate community. Shout out to TM Scanlon. that guy, where you do have a duty to care more about your intimates.
Speaker: Um, Like obviously everybody on earth matters and I'm not saying that free Palestine. I am saying free Palestine. Sorry, there was a comma in between that. But what I am saying is that like, you know,
Speaker: You do feel happier when you like. Come to... community again and we kind of mentioned this last week as well like you know about third spaces and finding the community garden and doing stuff like that where It is just... like nice to get out of the house and find like -minded people i think that if you keep isolating yourself in the ways that these characters do.
Speaker: you are going to suffer. Yeah. And that brings me kind of onto Hope Woodard, ah who went boy sober, which I think is an interesting thing because she encountered the same problem. There is...
Speaker: It's so it can be so easy to be miserable all the time and like again, and I think this is why the modern romance text is so much more miserable. Then. Maybe like a Sex and the City or something. For those who are listening who aren't familiar, who is Miss Woodard and what is Boy Sober?
Speaker: She is a New York -based, I guess, influencer, but basically the... she rose to fame she would kind of do condemning like oh my god I went on a first date with a guy and then eventually she was just like I'm fucking sick of this i'm actually this guy like i've never he doesn't care about me and i'm fucking tethered to my phone and I hate this and so she decided to be what she called boy sober for a year where she
Speaker: wouldn't date and wouldn't, yeah, basically, you know, took a vow of celibacy for the year, wouldn't do anything and and just kind of documented it and it became a bit of a thing. online because i think it it resonated with so many people because i think I think of people were like, fuck, yeah, well, I'm sitting here pining over random h hinge matches, listening to Phoebe Bridges and reading normal people.
Speaker: and what is And where is that getting me? And charging iPhone, shaking ass, being bisexual, eat hot chip and lie. well she's doing that I think she was doing none of those things. And now she's doing all of those things. But I mean...
Speaker: ah The tension with that is because I think... Dating influences are a whole separate thing where they can perpetuate misery because... being perpetually single and oh my god what was me is much easier than but also it's like their job to keep dating yeah so that that kind of gets complicated but putting that to one side I guess the point is it's like...
Speaker: For me, it's not subversive to be sad. I know it's a weird thing to say, but I guess it's like... Again, speaking as people who have, you know, card carrying... SSRI havers. Yep. Like, this is this isn't, again, like...
Speaker: When you talk to people who are in the throes of mental illness... Like again, It's kind of a difficult line to walk. And I think the best techs do walk it well. But I guess I'm just a... I find the explorations of...
Speaker: sadness in popular media kind of lacking. And I don't... get why sadness as An exploration. in art is is put on such a higher pedestal than anything else.
Speaker: Like, cause I mean... a sat like so Slang being emotional, it's it's... up like surely sorry it's it's it's a reason i engage with that But it's not... really it's not one of the the it's not up there Like I engage with art to feel.
Speaker: You know liberated to feel exhilarated to feel happy to feel angry to feel excited to feel ah nostalgic, to feel calm.
Speaker: You know, there's so many more emotions. And I... I guess what's bemused me about the 2020s and the rise of of sad folk music and the rise of normal people is like...
Speaker: Why is sadness the thing? Do you - what do you think about that? Do you think - do you think that like - Why do you think it is that sadness in art is like exalted? I think because it it seems more complex because there are multiple kind of facets to why someone might be feeling low or something, right? Whether it's coming from, you know, trauma or some sort of other external factor.
Speaker: or just a chemical imbalance in their brain, right? um And. Because. like the amount of effort that it takes to get out of that sort of cycle. It just... Makes it.
Speaker: easier And I think that. You know, and people talk like. People glorify. um artists anyway because like mental health is a huge sort of conversation and an influence to making art and like that like the yeah the i guess the archetype of the tortured artist yeah assists yeah um And so if...
Speaker: Someone was enjoying themselves. I feel like people would think that. The. art would have no grounds to stand on yeah where you need to suffer, whether that be financially.
Speaker: um, you know, some sort of like other kind of oppression it's it's a martyrdom for sure yeah yeah which i think is like you know a bit insane and that's why I mean what kind of struck me about Lovesick was, like, it's it's clearly raised on this idea that you need to be a martyr for your art, but, like... The the martyrdom there is like...
Speaker: Having parents who are barristers. Whereas, again, being a martyr for, like, I don't know. Kurt Cobain or... ah I don't know. I'm trying to think here. Someone else. what's so what's so I don't know. Fiona Apple or yeah something like that. like it's It's much more like...
Speaker: like lived and deep and like emotionally nuanced. And I guess I'm just... I'm fucking sick of, like, just stuff that's sadness porn. Because, again, that's why it's called misery slop. Because when you talk to people... If you're a Phoebe Bridges, boy genius, Axis fan, I feel like I've talked to a couple... people who are fans of this stuff and they do say something along the lines of like
Speaker: it It feels indulgent. Like it's it's a self -indulgence to stay here. But it's comforting because that's what depression is. Like it's this comforting warm blanket that you don't have to get up under from. Yeah. um And it's really hard. It is really hard to pull yourself up.
Speaker: buy bootstraps and do something about it. I mean, I remember the depiction in Big Mouth of when she gets to depressed. And like they get like, that's the perfect way of... of depicting it. But I guess it's just like...
Speaker: I come back to... um I mean, there's that... that ah the the idols album joy is an act of resistance which was like my first introduction to them and i found that to be such a profound statement because yes Joy is an act of resistance and I would argue Much more than sadness. Because our current generation.
Speaker: I mean This brings us onto the kind of... the digital panopticon absolutely where it's like I have a tricky relationship with this stuff because I don't want to dismiss like people exploring their lived experiences.
Speaker: Um, and exploring sadness and you know bringing to light issues and things. but To some extent, I think as an emotion, sadness is also very beneficial to big tech.
Speaker: Because it means you spend more time on phone being sad. Well, yeah, and because the only source of dopamine or connection that you're getting is from... being on your phone. like Being on your phone watching normal people's sad smut edit. And also, you know, like watching... reels and reels of people like having it worse off than you.
Speaker: So that is like really captivating. um And I think it also leans into the sort of performative activism note as well. where like you're constantly being fed all of these like atrocities in your life. And because it feels so overwhelming, you do feel sort of paralyzed in being like, okay, well... I have access to all of these wonderful things and someone else doesn't.
Speaker: Yet. So therefore, I'm going to deny myself. All of. these like good things in my life where i think that it is important to understand when Like. you know your privilege and things like that come into play. um And that being said, like through all.
Speaker: Um, bad. times and and whatever, the thing that you do have is people. um And by staying on your phone and being in your room all the time, you are isolating yourself. um And, you know, I guess like from the novel Lovesick, like Gabby and Gordon, the end that they end up like working it out. You know, Gordon's brother. I don't really understand what how. No, me neither. Because the actual moment of the breakup is never really done in the book. like and it's it's ah It's a...
Speaker: Chekhov's gun that is invisible but the thing is like you sort of i i guess you know you have to be like smart enough to infer it but that's the only point in the novel.
Speaker: Where. Lillian makes you infer it. Everything else is handed to you on a silver platter. And it's the most confusing bit and I'm like, oh. just very It was very confusing. well yeah And then there's a Reddit post. And then I'm like... where Oh, this is Reddit. And then there's an email. Are they Reddit? Like, is you know. I guess I'm just like, I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, joy is an act of resistance is a statement that always stuck with me. Hope is discipline as well. well it's the same like you can um take it all the way back to aristotle right where like aristo lay Aristotle. Um,
Speaker: um sometimes actually i call the sopranos the sopranos because it it'd be funny if they were like yeah a greek moment yeah yeah that's good but aristotle um you know he talks about like diamantina um hunter i hope i said that right it's been a while
Speaker: about like the the divine happiness um or like pleasure that you can get from life and really like it's through habituation um and it doesn't matter if you were shit cunt before Because like the more effort that you put in and the the time that you put in into practicing. you know,
Speaker: discipline I guess and like going outside and speaking to people and even just like sitting in the sun and making yourself feel good. The more that you do it, the more that it becomes ingrained into you as a person. It's the same with like reading a book outside performatively.
Speaker: Allegedly. You do absorb it and engage in with it at some point. um Yeah. And so I think that. Just by... getting get no one wants to work anymore getting yourself up and participating in some fear Yeah. I guess it's really beneficial. Yeah. It's, it's again, I think I come back to depression cap from big mouth. Like.
Speaker: the The problem with this genre for me is that it's a bit of ah an easy bomb. so Like... We live in the most mentally ill generation. Yeah. And also, anything you do... has the potential to be publicly surveilled and ridiculed online.
Speaker: End. There is no generation that has ever had to exist. In such a... context collapse of everything yeah the things you wear you can never just wear a Pair of shoes. It's it's like a ironic. It's a post I wrote like everything is referential to something else And so it could be very hard to just go out and live purely.
Speaker: And that's where I think the genre comes into play. it's It's a bomb. It's so much like it is it's so much easier. it's And I get it's comforting. And I don't want to like throw out. All media that is sad like I don't want to do that because I I think This is a symptom. I think there's been very good books about this.
Speaker: But again, it's like... It just feels like... something that it it just feels like something that's a bit self -flagellating like why and i And again, I think just like think about it. Normal people, Phoebe Ridge was five years ago and...
Speaker: It just feels like then there's... Like can we move can we move on? can we Can we be a little... From the sad? Can we have... Is there a world, do you think, where you can have...
Speaker: pieces of art that Can we treat? Other emotions with the same reverence that we do sadness. And do we? I'm just trying to think back in all of my like understanding of literary history and I think It.
Speaker: is kind of easier. to look at... these more complex, like... low down emotions. um because like it doesn't seem like there's any Um,
Speaker: Like. root or I guess like hardship or obstacles to... happiness like just as a baseline. um can i can i jump in as well though and just say with some literary history stuff and explorations of sadness i will say thinking about it from this episode Going back ah and thinking about some of the texts about sadness.
Speaker: historically. It's been a sadness that has been under underexplored. I think about like Giovanni's room. Mm. A devastatingly sad book. but a book that is about a queer relationship.
Speaker: you know, in the early 20th century, right? So it's in that context. It's in that context. And it's like, well, That makes sense. Like, there's a hard... Same with monkey grip. There's, like, an element where it makes sense to be sad. And that's why it gets... You know, you don't want to be like, well, your sadness isn't valid, Lillian, like, blah, blah, blah. But I do think that, like...
Speaker: Their sadness is subversive. Because in the 1950s, everyone's chipper and no one talks about mental health. and And such an emotional exploration of that is like insane and would have blown it wide open the same way that like Jane Austen would have blown it wide open with discussions of like, ah you know, female emotion when she was writing.
Speaker: Whereas this, and the mo the my problem with the modern thing is it's like... we know we we've it's been done to fucking death we know like unless there's Yeah. I don't know, it's just hard for their...
Speaker: For me to kind of really understand and empathsize empathize with two characters that are just... Oh, we're in a bad relationship and it's sad. Like, that's... That horse is dead. Move on. Honestly, like I could have.
Speaker: never read this book and i would have been fine um or sorry lillian or like put it down and you know after it pissed me off the first time and oh there was so many we kept saying okay and i kept sending each other um uh screenshots from the book being like oh my god you like shut the hell up bro and it also makes me think like you know it is maybe her editor's faults too yeah i think this is a publishing industry thing they signed her to a two book deal because they're like
Speaker: Fuck, let's jump on the Wattpad train, choo -choo, all the way to the station. And you know what? Somewhere down the line, they might even class this as a great Australian novel oh and we'll make a TV show about it. yeah This is going to be the next Tomorrow When The War Began, but not in a good way. There's going to be.
Speaker: jesus fuck that's actually quite grim that's really grim because i could actually fully say that happening Um, As an addendum as well. Can I just say? Uh...
Speaker: I also think... Eh. it It does a disservice, this sort of stuff, to... Like, I think this is ah a genre that is... also oftentimes led by women. Um, And I think...
Speaker: We were talking about this while we were getting caffeinated before. I think you can kind of create an artificial box for... Uh... Like. women in literature where it's like unless you're like mining the depths of your trauma, your art isn't valid. I think it is also specifically white women.
Speaker: yeah Because... In that context, you have the privilege to begin with. So it's like... Shut the hell up, bitch. um ah yeah And, you know, I say that as a white woman. i yeah Card -carrying white woman. Card -carrying. Um, Yeah, just that like the...
Speaker: Ugh. there it There are interesting white women out there.
Speaker: But you know what I mean? like It's like... It feels like with these these sorts of books that it's just the next generation. like It's a bit of a race to the bottom. It's like the next Phoebe Bridges is going to be even more sad. yeah it's like every batman they're like this batman's darker and grittier and then it's like no how far can we go he's a rich fascist can we go can we go back to the camp batman being like oh hello joker and he's got his nipples out like i love that guy and that's what i kind of comes to me that's like what's the logical end point of this genre is just like
Speaker: Maximum length. self -flagellation for like over nothing at some point it will become a caricature of itself i mean i think the taylor swift hate is a bit of this hey you reckon yeah because like her whole writing at its best is like taking the tiniest moment
Speaker: and blowing it out into this, like, tapestry. That's when I think everyone was on pro T -Swizz. And I think the hate now... is because it feels gratuitous because she's a billionaire. Yeah. Right? Like, there's all the reels being like, oh, like, tell, like... Fake Taylor Swift lyrics. It's like.
Speaker: I was the dishwasher. You were the dishwashing tablet, like the stuff like that. And it's like, I think people are finding. just like, that People are finding it hard with Taylor Swift's recent records where she's like sad.
Speaker: Well, you're like what what ah what? You don't have to be this way. Or like the new Gracie Abrams record. ah oh Have you listened to that? yeah It's windy as hell outside. Yo. Um...
Speaker: The new Gracie Abrams record. Have you listened to that at all? No. I do i choose to not engage. Well, see, I did have to engage. And like... What I find so crazy, funnily enough, she's dating Paul Mescal. Yeah. Right. And obviously daughter of ah JJ Abrams. And the the the album is is like daughter from hell. It's about a relationship with her mom. But like the biggest song is called. um oh god look at my life and she goes
Speaker: Well, oh God, look at my life. Bet you can't tell, but it's kind of a bad time. And it's like... Yeah, I can't fucking tell. You are like quite wealthy.
Speaker: and you're dating paul mescal and like ah it's not that you can't be sad it's not that you can't be sad But like... With all this stuff, it all feeds into this thing for me where it's like... Like, come on. What are we doing here? Girl, get up.
Speaker: I bet like. That was a good song, Don't She and Scissor. Go get up. really yeah they released a song together anyway girl good god girl get up i wonder if There's like... Maybe it's because the sad genre has been I mean, like women have been cast out of like any sort of art for a very long time or not taken seriously and things.
Speaker: where they're trying to become their own Ernest Hemingway. And... Like. You... like getting the same chops as that where i feel like he comes from a time where there kind of wasn't really anyone else that was riding anyway. Or those sort of like classical literary literary canon where it is very like, I guess in in our context, it's very like Western Eurocentric. Well, they were broaching new ground.
Speaker: Yeah. like totally ernst hemingway was doing that but also with giovanni's room he was like He was an asshole. Yeah. First of all. Sexy asshole. Not James Baldwin. He was great. Sure.
Speaker: But yeah, like, so. like these these women are paving their own way and trying to get into art and and culture and things like that and trying to be taken seriously.
Speaker: And. what has been taken seriously so far is suffering. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. i I completely agree. And I just think like it. I think you can do it. just so Boom. Boom. Truth bomb. Because like, what about. god forbid it wouldn't be happy oh god forbid well and it's this whole thing where like you know in In Fleabag, the...
Speaker: The, um... hot lesbian. She's like, Look, you know. you Women are born with pain inside us, um which is pretty true, unfortunately. um So I guess you have to think about.
Speaker: you know, a system that is like, constantly trying to put you down and not taking you seriously as a person And. feeling like you're bearing the weight of that as well. I saw this TikTok the other day and it was just so trivial, but it was really funny and poignant about like... If someone is like throwing something at you to catch like, you know, you're... um your friends like tossing you your a pair of keys and if especially if they're a dude then it's like you're wearing The entire weight of like.
Speaker: the female genre. Together. like i I just threw Kate a stuffed toy. It's like, I have to catch this because otherwise... Like.
Speaker: They're just going to keep thinking that all women, you know, can't like are uncoordinated. Yeah, right. That's really funny. Where it's like everything that... it It does sometimes feel like that. And I think that if...
Speaker: you know. you had all of these other like intersectional things as well you know you're like a queer person a person of color and also so happened to be you know a woman or just like not a man in general Um,
Speaker: then there it does feel like this sort of weight that's put on you. And so a way to... Get your foot in the door. Is to play the game. To play the game, be miserable. But yeah again, that's why I'm kind of like, well, maybe the way out like joy is an act of resistance. Like I really do feel like.
Speaker: there's there's a way out. Because then it's also, like, it's led to interesting things. Like, I remember seeing a... Speaking of romance and joy, like there was a reel I saw from this lady who was proposing to her husband.
Speaker: Oh! Oh, that was, I saw that too. It was so lovely. yeah And so, so this was, I, and I think this is, again, this is the the limits of this sadness genre. there's a now a generation now where it's like we're trying to be sad and it's like Yeah, clip that out of context. But she proposes to her husband. It's a really beautiful moment. This is, I think, again, this is also interesting because she's come out the other side quite clearly. Her and her husband seem to have a...
Speaker: Beautiful now. Fiance. They're married yet. Have a beautiful relationship. Which seems to be bound on this like. you know, it's a real true partnership. And she proposed to him. And...
Speaker: All the comments hated. Oh, absolutely. There was a lot of hating being like, go. Like I would never let a man do that to me like I would uh and then why would you do go that's nice but why and she responded because i wanted him to feel loved Well, yeah. And because like.
Speaker: She loves him. She loves him. And I think it was... i like For me, it's a way of resistance and a way forward out of the genre. That's what it is for me. It's it's choosing joy.
Speaker: It's choosing hope. over all this stuff. And it's not to ignore sadness. But I think if you don't give sadness, you can't if you put sadness on a pedestal and and worship at its altar...
Speaker: It just is going to lead you down this dark... path and I think You're going to... I just think you're gonna be much better off to... Go out and touch grass, baby.
Speaker: Yeah, it is a beautiful spring day outside, even though it's a little bit chilly. Yeah, it was a bit chilly this morning. It was a bit chilly. But... After we record this, I'm going to walk to the train station and probably walk home from there as well.
Speaker: and enjoy the sun um and that's literally a very simple way to start to bring joy back into your life. yeah I think. Maybe the... the I'd like to do a ah top three, maybe.
Speaker: either sad or happy. texts real quick or something and the thing is i don't the the entire conversation i don't think that i've ever Like. engaged with.
Speaker: a happy book Yeah. Like... Like. something fun literature. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it feels like it's a more serious with the mining. Which is what I think is... Because, i again, I just find it confusing that... And, I mean, a final point is this is where I think also the roots of, like, poptimism come in. Whereas, like, yeah, I do think...
Speaker: the the reason i think people were like well pop music is like a liberatory like Um. mechanism was because, well, yeah, you know, why is it that a woman being happy and... singing about kind of ah quote unquote trivial things is like worth less than, you know, sad, you know, Adele or whatever. Like I do agree with that. Um. to an extent. It's like, yeah, there seems to be this weird kind of fetishization of sadness. Why is it? And I think there's reasons for that.
Speaker: Like I think often sadness can be breaking new ground, but. fuck this book pushed me to my fucking limit man yeah it really did because it was like okay what are we sad over What are we sat over? It's Gracie Abrams. It's Lillian Telford.
Speaker: It's misery slop. Don't care. Don't care. Don't care. Don't care. It's okay to be sad. But... I mean, just watch the career of James Blake. He put out something really poignant about because he makes sad white boy music but he was like this feels insane because i don't have anything to be sad about But he then was able to, because he's cognizant of that, he was actually able to make music that better explored emotion. um So...
Speaker: Just... Don't paint your life with one brush. Use a full palette. Totally. Beautiful palette. Painted in multiple colours.
Speaker: Kate Yup. Active resistance. i Um... Okay. I think the these are the three types of art I think in your wheelhouse. Can you give me the happiest? Um, Art? Piece of art?
Speaker: Just off the dome. Piece of art. TV show. and What else do you like? Album. Those are your three things I think you consume the most of. Give me your happiest. Anything that comes in threes now, I just think of almas and Alvin Simon Theodore. Yes. I'll give you Alvin Simon Theodore. Okay. So my Alvin, my my book.
Speaker: Um.
Speaker: No, I don't wanna do a book. No, it's it's album TV show. Okay. ah okay so So my piece of art. Peace of art. is Essence. It's a great show by Hosea. Fantastic guy. Lots of really bright colors. There is, you know, there are some like deep themes that he explores to do with like maternal relationships.
Speaker: but it is really beautiful and it's bright and it's vibrant and it makes you feel good about like you know your family and your relationships that you are able to have with people um it's a touring exhibition so if it's ever in your city you should totally go and check it out um Totally not plugging that at all.
Speaker: um And TV show, of it like it's a comfort show, Lovesick, which unfortunately shares the same name as the novel that we've been talking about today. what was that kate What was it originally called? lost It was called Scrotal Recall. Scrotal Recall. It's lost media now. um And it is also pretty happy because I've probably spoken about it on the show before, but like that's how.
Speaker: um you know my my boyfriend wooed me so that's sort of like it's associated with that too um and album Whenever I want to be in a good mood, I listened to Chromatica by Lady Gaga.
Speaker: Hell yeah. It really gets me going. It really gets me going. That's really good. She just had a kid, you know? Did she? Yeah, I think it was like by a surrogacy or something. It's her little monster? She had a kid, yeah. It's her little monster? Lady Gaga has a little monster. She's got a whole monster.
Speaker: All right, Sam, you go. Yeah, I need to get my piece of art up because I forget. Sam? What are your top... three. happiest pieces of media art.
Speaker: book or TV show. and album. Yes. Okay. Same as you are. I'm going to start with Kayleen Whiskey. She's an indigenous artist. You will have seen her stuff with the brand Wawa which is a knitwear brand. There's ah a jumper she's done with them which is beautiful. It's bright. There's a thing with this. It's bright and colorful.
Speaker: Uh... And. Very tongue -in -cheek. One of her um piece of art, was like it's called like Cooking My Famous Soup. And it's just her with all her stuff. And it's just like... When you're walking through, like, the Archibald and all the things are like...
Speaker: really sad and like you know, morose or whatever. Just seeing this like kind of beautiful piece of color that just isn't taking itself as seriously, but somehow has more emotional depth. Beautiful. I love Kaelin whiskey. I really want to get. the jumper. That's my op.
Speaker: um Okay, TV show. Gotta be Family Guy. Yes. Ultimate happy show of me. I don't care. It's so like ah one of the funniest shows of all time. um Never fails to bring joy to me.
Speaker: Um... takes liberty of of every of even very sad things like it it's just so good it's it's one of the best shows of all time in terms of comedies. And in terms of albums...
Speaker: The happiest album of all time for me, I have next to me. um I guess I'm gonna say it's a dub. I'm gonna school. It's a double act Whoa. I'm gonna call this a double act. Don't call it a comeback. album.
Speaker: I have them on my lap. Wow. Both. It's hard to pick. Both of the first two Avalanches records. Probably just Wildflower. if yeah If I had to pick, it's colorful like all the other ones in my my top three. It's beautiful.
Speaker: ah It's a psychedelic explosion and it makes me feel like the sun. It's a happy album and it's a beautiful album. Listen to the song Harmony and you will always feel happy. So those are my top three happiest pieces of media.
Speaker: I'm going to probably listen to that album on my way home. It's beautiful. So yeah to close. it's okay to be sad as Sophie said yeah it's okay to cry It is okay to cry. But you know what?
Speaker: Joy is an act of resistance. yeah Hope is a discipline. Yes, and you've got to get your ass up. And get going. Chumbawamba once said, I get knocked down.
Speaker: but I get back up again. I get up again. You're never going to keep me down. No. Well, this has been another episode of the popularity contest. um Tune in next week for something else. What are we going to explore? I've got a couple of things on the boil. Do you? Yeah. No, I'm excited. We're theorizing. Oh, I've been, you know, I've been contemplating and mulling things over in my brain. You should be concerned. You should be very afraid. Hey.
Speaker: Thanks. and And goodbye. Cheers. Leave us a like. Yeah, like, comment, five stars. Cheers. Cheers to you.
