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S1:E8 - Halloween Special: The Silence of the Lambs by Thomas Harris (1991 Film)
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In this spooky Halloween special, we dive deep into The Silence of the Lambs by Thomas Harris and its chilling 1991 film adaptation! Join us as we explore the mind games, psychological horror, and the terrifying genius of Dr. Hannibal Lecter. From the unforgettable performances of Sir Anthony Hopkins and Jodie Foster to the suspenseful tension of the hunt for Buffalo Bill, we unpack the key moments that make this story a classic of the horror-thriller genre. Plus, you’ll hear how the book differs from the movie and how both build an atmosphere that is truly perfect for Halloween!
Hosted by Lindsey with co-hosts Crystal and Keri.
Content Warnings: Graphic depictions of violence and murder; discussions of cannibalism, body mutilation, and skinning; psychological manipulation and trauma; mentions of sexual harassment and abuse; depictions of mental illness and institutionalization
Books & Adaptations Mentioned:
Question of the Episode:
- "If you had to seek advice from a notorious villain to solve a mystery, who would it be and why?”
Share your opinions with us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube, or email us at basedonabookpodcast@gmail.com
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Intro/Outro Music - Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/konstantin-garbuzyuk/zombie-party
Thanks for listening to “Based on a Book” - see you in the next chapter!
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Transcript
Introductions and Theme
00:00:15
Speaker
where things get a little unsettling. Trick or treat, I think we all know the answer. Let's get spooky. I'm Lindsay, the podcast's honorary murder queen and orderly for today's episode. I'm Crystal. I'm just really glad that Spooky Month is almost over. And I'm Carrie, the clueless detective.
Discussion on 'The Silence of the Lambs'
00:00:38
Speaker
Tonight we are diving into the dark and twisted world of the 1988 psychological horror crime thriller that is The Silence of the Lambs written by Thomas Harris and the 1991 film adaptation starring Jodie Foster and Sir Anthony Hopkins. So grab your fava beans and a nice Chianti because we're about to dissect the story that made Hannibal Lecter an icon of terror.
00:01:04
Speaker
So for those of you who do not know the story of The Silence of the Lambs, the book is about FBI trainee, Clary Starling, who is tasked with hunting down a serial killer known as Buffalo Bill. And to help her, she must interview Dr. Hannibal Lecter, a cannibalistic psychopath who is imprisoned in a mental institution.
Personal Experiences with the Series
00:01:28
Speaker
So let's start with reading formats, ratings, and many non-spoiler reviews. I guess I'll go first with mine. For reading format, I read this one on my Kindle. I had actually never read the book before, even though I've seen the movie many times.
00:01:49
Speaker
Crystal, how did you read? I read a physical copy. I also have seen the movie many times and I read the book in the past, um but it's been a solid like 10 years probably since I saw the movie or read the book. Yeah, I read it on my Kindle. I have never seen the movie. Never read the book. I actually have never even seen images from the movie.
00:02:20
Speaker
I've actually only heard of Hannibal Lecter like a couple of times. Never knew the origin story of Hannibal Lecter.
Origins and Order of Hannibal Lecter Series
00:02:31
Speaker
Never knew literally anything about him and actually I was kind of shocked.
00:02:37
Speaker
Whenever like we first like picked this book originally, that this was the origin story of Hannibal Lecter. But it's not. well ah Yeah, it's not the origin story, but that this was the origin series, that's what I mean, of Hannibal Lecter.
00:02:55
Speaker
so I was a complete newbie to this entire story. And honestly, I feel like my rating was kind of affected. I think I did this series in general in this book, a disservice by starting with this first and not starting with the first book.
Detective Elements and Gender Dynamics
00:03:22
Speaker
So because of that,
00:03:27
Speaker
going back to our last episode I'm giving it three heebie jeebies out of five okay okay yeah i I never read the first book I did watch all of the movies in the series including like you know red dragon and whatnot I did also watch the Hannibal Lecter TV steer series which is the series with Mad Mickelson, and it has the Will character in it. So I felt like I maybe knew a little bit more of what was going on, yeah especially since the last time I had watched The Silence of the Lambs. um But going back and watching the movie again,
00:04:11
Speaker
but It brought on more nostalgia. It's like scary movies to tell in the dark. So for my rating, I went with four Deathhead moths and a pupa. So it's like four and a half. Oh, I like that. So I read I read Red Dragon as the first book.
00:04:32
Speaker
I didn't realize it was the Hannibal Lecter book when I picked it up. It was the first like true horror slash suspense psychological thriller I had ever read and I was probably 15, 14 or 15. And it scared the bejesus out of me when I read that. It gave me the heebie jeebies. It gave me the heebie jeebies and I was absolutely hooked. I will say after this reread of Silence of the Lambs,
00:04:58
Speaker
I am still hooked. I give this five cadaver handprints. I just got goosebumps. I, and of course I don't do scary as a general rule, but this is like, to me, the epitome of the right kind of scary, of the right kind of gooseys, you know, that like,
00:05:24
Speaker
You know the bumps in the night, but I know that none of that is Like if you like this book has clear rules that you have to follow to stay safe, right? You don't go out alone You make sure that you're not taunting serial killers on purpose, you know, like and always check your corners always check your corners exactly there's clear rules that are in reality that you can put in place and that's the kind of scary I love that's this is like it It just, it yeah, this is my first five in a long time. I would have rated it a five on my first read through had we been doing this forever ago. And I, that didn't change at all. I was ready for it to change with, with fresh eyes and no, it's still that good. That's so exciting. yeah I love that. I'm so happy that, um, I think I realized
00:06:22
Speaker
for myself that I think this is just like a personal preference, which is really weird because I love like a true crime podcast, but reading it like ah from a detective point of view, I realized it's like kind of not my favorite sub genre and like a thriller or something.
Character Backgrounds and Portrayals
00:06:46
Speaker
So I think that's kind of why I didn't love it. Also like,
00:06:50
Speaker
I feel like I was missing, like I said, the origin story of Hannibal Lecter. I feel like I was kind of missing the background of Hannibal Lecter a little bit. Like I was just like missing a little something. Not that I felt lost, but if you're somebody that it wants to go into the series, I definitely recommend starting with the first book.
00:07:11
Speaker
internal. They do mention the character will quite a few times. Yeah, right. And he, he's a character in the series, the Hannibal Lecter series, and he's in the first book, obviously, you find out what happens to him in that. So Yeah, I mean, it's probably beneficial to go back and read the first book. Yeah, I feel like it will get more like depth a little to the entire series as a whole. But yeah, I think it's just like the detective stuff like wasn't my favorite. But I mean, I can appreciate
00:07:42
Speaker
it for what it is and like I appreciate people liking it for what it is because it was like a good book overall. And see and that's the part that I love was the detective part that like having to puzzle it together, having yeah to pick apart the pieces and like, try to catch a clue for a clue, because we get so much information throughout the whole book that you don't necessarily realize are clues right away. You know, and that, i like, I loved that, like, looking for that clue as Clarice is trying to, like, pick apart what Hannibal says or pick apart what she's found. Like, I loved doing that with her.
00:08:19
Speaker
that was that was the the exciting part for me. And there were a couple of times when I caught a clue you know and and thought to myself, it's right there, it's right there. like I can't believe you can't see this yet. like I know you can figure it out. And like and I was like that frustrated, I guess, kind of similar to that, like you know don't open that door kind of thing. But you know like it was it was very exciting to just kind of feel like I was a part of the investigative team too.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah, there there was a specific scene that I really felt that. um So before we get into it, we've got a lot to cover.
Content Warnings and Realism
00:08:53
Speaker
Just going to go ahead and throw out some full spoilers. We're going to break down the book, break down the movie. We're going to talk about it all. So you if you haven't watched the movie, if you haven't read the book, pause, go do that and come back and join the discussion.
00:09:09
Speaker
Um, so welcome back. Hello. Welcome back. We're here. Let's start with some content warning cause there's a lot of content warning in this one. So the story contains violence, gore, psychological manipulation, trauma, essay, misogyny, mental illness, body horror, transphobia, and cannibalism.
00:09:35
Speaker
I think that covers it. Hopefully I didn't miss any, but there's a lot. Yeah. yeah Oh, and insects, if you're if you don't like bugs. Yeah, if you don't like bugs, there there are bugs. Yep. So Clary Starling is a young FBI trainee, and she is asked to carry out an errand by Jack Crawford, the head of the FBI division that draws up psychological profiles of serial killers.
00:10:02
Speaker
So Starling is to present a questionnaire to the forensic psychiatrist and cannibalistic serial killer Hannibal Lecter. Who's also a graduate from UVA, which was really freaking me out because that is local to me. Yep. I remember I was texting everyone like, excuse me, this is literally local to Virginia. Nobody told warned me about this one. This is what I love specifically. One of the things that I love about this book as a whole is there they talk about so many specific places across basically all of the Eastern United States, right? And I think that helps to sink the reader further into this, make it feel a little bit more real, a little bit more relatable because like these are places you might have been or seen or know about. And like even like I've been to,
00:10:55
Speaker
a handful of the places that are mentioned in the book. It's not just Virginia and DC because she's an FBI. They're in Ohio. They're in Indiana. At one point, they're in West Virginia. They mentioned, I think, Mississippi. They're in Tennessee. No, Georgia. Yeah, Tennessee. It's like all of the Eastern US, very specific locations that they talk about that are real, that are tangible. And so that adds that layer of like creep. Like it was in my back backyard. It was right there. It was written so well that, I mean, this is probably very silly, but as someone who had no idea, like any idea about this entire story, I know idea about the background, nothing. I know nothing about the story.
00:11:41
Speaker
It was written so well. I actually went and researched it because I was scared that it was like based on true events or something.
Character Differences: Book vs Movie
00:11:50
Speaker
It was that detailed because it was freaking me out. It was so detailed. It was really intense.
00:11:56
Speaker
yeah it's ah it's a very very story Yeah. But this is also the point where I feel like the movie kind of deviates like already from the book, because in the book, Clarice is chosen to go do this survey with Hannibal Lecter, specifically because she has a psych background. She's studied and and and done really, really well.
00:12:20
Speaker
She's top of her class in these areas. She worked at a mental treatment center or something before. Right. But in the movie, we don't know that. She just seems to be picked out of thin air. Hey, go do this errand for me.
00:12:31
Speaker
Just because she's top, not top top of her class, but top quarter of her class or something. Right. But no specific area or anything is mentioned or the fact that she is really passionate about this or anything. I think at one point he does say, you want to be in my behavioral science division, right? And she was like, yes.
00:12:53
Speaker
But other than that, it's just like, yeah you know go do this thing for me. Whereas in the book, they go into a lot of detail about like why she's the right one to do this. yeah but She also had experience fingerprinting bodies that had been in water, which comes in handy later.
00:13:13
Speaker
Right. And in the movie, they don't really mention that that's why she's chosen for that specific thing either. There's a lot of deep characterization in this, like, beginning part of the book. Like, you really get to know who Clarice
Buffalo Bill's Modus Operandi
00:13:25
Speaker
is. and this yeah And Crawford as well. yeah And then Lecter is serving nine consecutive life sentences in a Maryland mental institution for a series of murders.
00:13:41
Speaker
So like we said, Crawford's real intention is to try to solicit Lecter's assistance in the hunt for a serial killer dubbed Buffalo Bill, whose MO involves kidnapping large women, starving them for up to two weeks and killing and skinning them and then dumping their remains in nearby rivers. At this point, I think there there are three victims.
00:14:06
Speaker
five Well, in the very beginning. Four victims. Okay, yeah. and And I think this is... also like a bit of a departure from the book too, because in the book they have two weeks, but in, you know, up to two weeks. And in the movie they're like, he, within three days. Like he'll snatch somebody and within three days he's- Just immediately three days. Whereas in the book it is a progression. it Right. Initially two weeks. And then by the time they find their third or fourth fourth victim, they realize- He's starting to speed up. That he is speeding up and he's killing them quicker.
00:14:42
Speaker
um And then you get into the joke as to why he's called Buffalo Bill. So the name was started by Kansas City Homicide as a sick joke that he likes to skin his humps. It was like, okay, yeah yeahp move on. Yeah, good job. not Leave it to the press though to like pick one thing.
00:15:12
Speaker
and and run with it. So I feel like that was like again another one of those moments that's kind of super realistic in the book that like the press just runs with stuff, whether it's true or not or applicable or not. Well, this wasn't the press. This was when- Right. They had said that in the homicide, but then the press got a hold of it and we um threw it out there and everybody else started saying it too. Yeah.
00:15:35
Speaker
who um So, although initially dismissive of Starling's questions, Lecter is offended when another inmate flings his semen at Starling. Gross. Yeah, you got something about Migs?
00:15:50
Speaker
and no but like i feel like
00:15:55
Speaker
I just I feel like that was so graphic in the movie, too. I know. OK, so I didn't know I literally was thinking, I'm like, are they going to put this in the because, you know, when you read this stuff and like books and it's like so graphic in the book and I'm like, and then you get to the movie and you're like, are they going to like, what are they going to keep in this movie? And like, what are they going to leave out? You know, because sometimes you know some things are like extremely graphic. And the things that they kept in this movie,
00:16:25
Speaker
were wild. Most of the things they kept. Most of the things. Most of the things you would think they would cut out. Yeah. I mean, even i'm like up to like the entire first interview with Clarice and Lecter, a lot of the almost exact quotes were kept in. Even Migs, even what he says to her as she's walking in on the corner. About the only real difference to me was that immediately after Migs does that? like Because in the book, it was very much like Hannibal Lecter is like, come back. And like he but in the movie, he's like, come back, he's screaming. So dramatic. Which is certainly not Hannibal Lecter to me. like He's a very even-keeled guy, so the fact that he like lost it in that moment,
00:17:21
Speaker
just seemed like. Why? Right, because we see a lot of other wild crazy shit happen where he doesn't lose it. Right. Heartbreak, 85 the whole time. Right. So for him to have lost it over that, like, you're going to be wrong. I understand him being upset and mad, but when he's upset and mad, like he's no he's he's known for being this like, calm, cool, collected yeah even when he's in extreme emotion, you know? Yeah, they warn her before she goes in there like because um I think his name is Dr.
Depiction and Impact of Hannibal Lecter
00:17:53
Speaker
Chilton or something. yeah yeah and He warns her before she even goes in to talk to Lecter and says that gives her all these things that she has to do, like how she gives him like the questionnaire and everything and you can't get too close to
00:18:08
Speaker
The cell and things like that and he tells her that Last time someone got too close and why he has to have like a mask on and sometimes Mm-hmm because he like bit someone's tongue out or something and he bit the nurse's face off and Yeah. And ate her tongue. Yeah, and ate her tongue and the whole time his heart rate never went over like 85. Yep. But then in the movie, when this whole incident happened, he's like screaming at the top of his lungs. It's like pressed against the glass. Yeah. To get her to come back after that happens. And I was like, I know his heart rate is over 85. Like what is going on? Which also, you know, shout out to Barney.
00:18:54
Speaker
shout out to Barney the true hero of the whole book the whole movie shout out to Barney yeah Barney is an orderly who helps to kind of watch after Lecter and he's a good guy he actually like seems to even though he's the psycho, he cares about, like, his well-being. It offers courtesy, like, even though he's a human being, he still deserves common courtesy. Exactly. And even though he goes through all of the, like, the security that has to be done by, like, you know, restraining him and masking him and whatever, like, he does it in a way that's courteous. and
00:19:36
Speaker
thoughtful and considerate. Honestly, shout out to anybody who works in any sort of detention facility because I know that that's got to be a hard thing to do to keep your humanity like that, but like, yeah, Barney's the the real MVP here. Yeah. Also, I want to note a difference. I didn't notice this in the movie, but I'm pretty sure in the book,
00:20:01
Speaker
Doesn't he have like on one of his hands? He has like six fingers. He has six fingers. In the movie. No, he does not. That's not the case. Not that I counted. I forgot to pay attention until toward the end.
00:20:17
Speaker
Uh, when he's in Tennessee. Yeah. Yeah. And I was, I was like trying to count really quick and I was like, no, I'm pretty sure he only has five on his hands. You're like trying to look down. You're like, let me, show me your hands. hold look pause is home yeah I feel like that was, that probably would have been hard to do without it just looking really kind of weird. You know what I mean? Especially in 1991. Yeah.
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah, they're like, just leave this out. This is unnecessary. But like, can we can we take a moment, though, Anthony Hopkins? Oh, yeah, I love Anthony Hopkins. Like I was like that. like And know I've seen him in a bajillion other things where he is like the handsome, cool guy. And I can totally believe that he's the handsome, cool guy. But for this movie, he is the scariest man alive.
00:21:07
Speaker
Did you know that he was dating Martha Stewart while he was making this movie? No. What? And they broke up because she couldn't see him as anything but Hannibal Lecter. Oh my gosh. What? Yeah. Martha Stewart called him. Apologize. He probably married now. Probably, whatever. Too late.
00:21:28
Speaker
oh my god martha i mean honestly like i think about that when i see like people play these really terrible villains like i don't know if either of you have seen outlander there's like a really terrible villain in outlander i don't know if either of you know who i'm thinking of And I cannot see that man as any other person or being as other than that villain. So like, I can't even like, like when he's like smiling outside like in his real life, I'm like, ew, disgusting person. Honestly, it's it's the Dolores Albright syndrome. Isn't that horrible? That's horrible. You know, you get that that that that one villain that everyone hates that everyone is terrified of and then
00:22:13
Speaker
their typecast for the rest of forever. you know yeah really but no yeah yeah He pulled off this role in a way that was so brilliant.
00:22:25
Speaker
yeah like yeah it It left me like, ooh, I'm going to probably have nightmares tonight. yeah yeah He studied serial killers and murderers and actually went and sat in on trials for people who committed these types of crimes to kind of Yeah, channel his inner lector. Yeah, you can tell because could have fooled me that he wasn't yeah right along with them. Like, you know, there's certain actors and actresses that like, no matter what they are, who they are on screen, you know, like to me, Tom Cruise is just Tom Cruise. Like, I never really really fully fully fall into the character because always, hurt it's good I know know. But like, since we've already done that, I might as well bring him up.
00:23:09
Speaker
But you know there there are other like actors and actresses. like I almost never even remember their names sometimes because i i just they are this character or that character. like They're so good at what they do. And yeah. yeah just You did a great job. You did a great job, for sure. So as an apology for Mig's throwing his semen at Starling, Lecter predicts that Buffalo Bill's next victim will be scalped and tells her to locate a car owned by Benjamin Raspell, who was a former patient of Lecter's who he eventually murdered.
00:23:51
Speaker
And that's also where it kind of deviates a little from the movie in the book. Yeah. I was about to mention that. I kind of understand why though. like I agree. I was about to say that too. The Klaus character that's in the book but not in the movie.
00:24:05
Speaker
He didn't add a ton to the book. Him not being there wouldn't have changed the story at all. So I feel like it didn't change the story in the movie. yeah I feel like if they put him in them, put that additional character in the movie, it probably would have been too much. Like yeah too many like names, too many characters that may have not been as significant to the overall plot.
00:24:28
Speaker
Right. So I understand why they just took that one out. Yeah, the general theme stayed the same. Exactly. Yeah. This is Buffalo Bill's first kill is what they're they're talking about. Yeah. So it yeah, it really didn't change anything with it being a different person. Yeah, because in the movie,
Plot Twists and Emotional Depth
00:24:54
Speaker
it's replaced I forget what the name that he says in the movie. It's MOFET? Yeah, MOFET or something. yeah Hester MOFET or something. Yes, which is... ah What is it, an anagram? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's an anagram to help her locate a storage facility. Yeah.
00:25:21
Speaker
So in this storage unit, which is the same between the the book and the movie, they ah go to the storage unit, she discovers a severed head preserved in a jar. This is, in the book, this is Klaus. In the movie, this is Russell. Yeah. Right. And then throughout the investigation, Starling periodically returns to Lecter in search of information and the two form a strange relationship Yeah. Lots of people think they're like a thing. They're dating. Yeah. It's just dumb. It's so stupid. Yeah. Like once again, a woman can't advance in her career without doing a little extra on the side. Which I will say is a theme in the book, but a small theme. We actually see a a lot, like they they kind of highlight
00:26:17
Speaker
the congresswoman from Tennessee, they highlight, I think there was one other one at the, I can't remember if it was at the Smithsonian or the FBI, that like she would have to like get clearance from or something.
00:26:31
Speaker
and so like they don't necessarily she doesn't They don't come out and say it at any point that like women can't get ahead, but in specifically in Clarice's role, she definitely feels the sexism. you know and she She definitely has to like kind of point it out now and then. but You even see it when she gets in the elevator at the training facility in Quantico. right She's the only female in the elevator and it's all men, so much taller than her.
00:27:01
Speaker
Well, in real life, Jodie Foster, I had to look this up is five foot three, because at first I was like, did they? buy foot me Yeah. At first I was like, did they purposely put giants in the elevator with her? Because you know, most people in Hollywood tend to be on the taller side. So I was like, unless you're Tom Cruise, unless Tom Cruise, or Jodie Foster, apparently, because I kind of in my head had it that Jodie Foster was like 5'7, 5'8 and like they must have purposely hired all these like six foot nine basketball players to get in the elevator with her. But no, she's just short. I like Jodie Foster. I was immediately thinking of the guy who, the main guy in Peaky Blinders, he's like, isn't he like super short too? Is he really? Yeah, like I think they make people stand next to him to make him seem like taller.
00:27:48
Speaker
Are you silly and Murphy? Is that his name? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm pretty sure he's really short. Really? Yeah. I'm pretty sure he's short. That kind of breaks my heart. I'm going to have to look that up after this, because I thought he was really tall. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's short. That's what Tom Cruise has to stand on a box all the time. Man, we all fought. All of War of the Worlds, he's just running on stilts.
00:28:14
Speaker
but Right along with the Martians the entire time. he Okay, Cillian Murphy or Killian Murphy, however it's pronounced, he's five foot nine, so he's not that short. Okay, yeah, that's not that bad. that's but yeah like Honestly though, like in Hollywood and in movies and stuff, people tend to be taller. I'll call this Tom Cruise. Yeah, we need the details on this. I'm just officially the height police now. I need reference. Yeah, we do. This is getting off the rails.
00:28:46
Speaker
I even promised you I was. That's Halloween. Tom Cruise's five seconds. That just me. I'm Tom Cruise. You're Tom Cruise. I'm Jodie Foster. Yeah. yeah Okay. Moving on. All right. Back to the story. So Starling and Lecter, they have a strange relationship. He offers her these cryptic clues and she offers him troubled stories of her childhood when she was orphaned. After she was told, by the way, not to give up personal information of herself. Yeah. I was like, why aren't you following the rules? Like you're really upsetting me that you're not following the rules. But I will say she was giving away stuff that she like, how would he possibly use this against me? Like, I think it's one of those things that like, you don't want him to know where you live. You don't want him to know who your sister's name or you know what I mean? Cause like he could potentially use that against you.
00:29:42
Speaker
But like this is all stuff from her past. There is no one connected anymore because she was an orphan. like yeah Her parents are gone. They've passed away. So one of the stories is some sort of the passing of her father. ah yeah There is some sort of reference in the in the books about her her having other siblings. Yes, she was the oldest of... Then we never hear any more about them. so Yeah, I don't know why she was sent away, the younger siblings. I mean, I'm assuming maybe they were and they were just kind of separated because that happened a lot in the 70s and 80s. Well, the mom was still alive. Right. It was just the dad who was killed. In the book, yeah. In the book, yes. But then her mom does die later on. Yes. So that's why I think she felt kind of comfortable giving up that information is because mom's gone, dad's gone. Yeah.
00:30:36
Speaker
you know, what is he gonna do if I tell him stories in my childhood? She lives with, is it her her mother's cousin? Yes, mother's cousin. And we get like the origin story.
00:30:51
Speaker
Yes, she lived on a sheep and horse farm. Yeah, what montana the silence of the lambs like. Well, we get that a little later on. Okay, I didn't know if that was this part. Yeah, this is just the part where she talks about living on the farm in Montana. Oh, yeah, she doesn't give a lot of details. Yeah, she's like, No, I ran away one time. And And then, you know, and he was just like, right He wants to know what happens to the horse. Right. And she's like quid pro quo, dude. Like I answer your questions. Yeah. They say that i'll they say that so many times in the movie, it yeah like, if that could have been a drinking game. Yeah. like Yeah. We'd all be done for. I wouldn't have made it.
00:31:39
Speaker
I'm a lightweight man. Nope. That wouldn't work. But they say quid pro quo at least like seven times within 30 seconds, I swear. Like just boom, boom, boom, boom. And then at one point they stop quitting or pro-ing or something. Quid pro-quo-ing. Right. And so the story kind of ends and we don't find out anymore.
00:32:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yep. So this is kind of where Dr. Chilton comes more into the story. He's the asylum's administrator. And technically, you could say he's Lecter's nemesis. He's a jerk. I don't like him. he's He's kind of an asshole. He makes sexual advances at Starling. Yeah.
00:32:29
Speaker
And he tries to put himself into the investigation. He's trying to be bigger than what he is. Pretty much. Spoiler alert, he doesn't even have a doctor's. Yeah. ye like he's just He's just a dude. He's just an administrator. And don't get me wrong, I know people who are administrators, I don't mean just, but that's he's trying to be bigger than that. and he He has no doctorate. He's not a doctor.
00:32:54
Speaker
Like just he just sit back and be proud of the work that you've done. This is a hard job. Why do you have to take more than what you do? yeah shirt yeah So at this point, Buffalo Bill's sixth victim is found in West Virginia.
00:33:12
Speaker
And Starling helps Crawford perform the autopsy. So this is when her fingerprinting and observation of bodies that have been in water for a period of time kind of comes in, which I kind of expected that she would have known what to do with the Vaseline that they handed her. And in the book, she didn't apply it until she saw everyone else do it. And then she followed.
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah, that kind of struck me too. Although in her experience before at Equinico, she, it was always on like cadaver subjects that were shipped to them. And so I'm assuming if they were shipped, they were probably preserved. That's true. And and then therefore like not necessarily as disgustingly smelly as a body that had been floating around in water for a week or so. you know That's true. You would still expect them to teach that. Right. You would think. yeah But again, in the movie, they don't mention she's going along because she is one of the bad... Her instructor said, no, she's the best one for taking wet handprints or wet fingerprints. you know That's not mentioned in the movie at all where it's it's it's highly
00:34:32
Speaker
like brought up in the book and emphasized in the book that she's the best one for this particular job, and that's why she's going. In the movie, it's just like, come on, Clarice, let's go for a ride, you know? Like, you talked to that guy once, and now you're my best friend. You know, it just seemed like she was picked out of thin air when there's all these other trainees that could have gone, you know? She also seems to get a little emotional. I was gonna comment on that because I feel that in the book,
00:35:02
Speaker
she like the way that they made her in the movie I feel like she was very like attached very emotional when she saw like violence or gory things like happening and in the book I did not get that impression from her character no whatsoever in the book she's very stoic she's very detached And in fact, that's something that Hannibal seems to like catch on to. Exactly. And he and specifically is like, what's going on? What are you thinking about? What's happening in your head? Because he yeah can't figure it out just by looking at her. you know And he wants to know, he's it makes him curious. who But in the in the movie, like like within the first 10 minutes of 10 or 15 minutes of the movie, she's crying outside her car after what Miggs did. And like that
00:35:58
Speaker
definitely didn't happen in the book. And I think that Jodie Foster won the Best Actress Oscar for this role. And she did a great job, but it is not the same characters from the book. No. And she's also kind of a pushover when she first meets Chilton and he is walking her to meet Lecter and they get to Barney and she stops him and she says, you know, I think he sees you as kind of his enemy. So maybe I should go in and talk to him myself. And he was like, Oh, you could have told me this in my office in the
00:36:37
Speaker
In the movie, she's like, oh. Like a half little flirty line. Yeah. Oh, lot you know, kind of plays it up. I'm sorry, blah, blah, blah, whatever. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have had the pleasure of your company or something like that. Exactly. I wouldn't have had the pleasure of your company in the book. She's like, well, if you had briefed me in your office instead of. Yeah. Russian and saying you had some appointment. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't like that they changed that because I really liked her in the book and how she was.
00:37:06
Speaker
detached from things and because it was different. Like I'm I feel like personally with my experience in like books and movies is I'm used to the character that they showed like the female character that they showed in the movie. Right.
00:37:24
Speaker
I'm used to that character. So seeing it portrayed in the book that way with the female character, I really like that. I love that. I love specifically that this is a man writing a female character, right? And typically when we see men writing female characters, they have a tendency to be overly emotional. They have a tendency to be really dramatic. They have a tendency ye to to be the big pushover or to fall into those stereotypical feminine roles. But in this book, she is not that. she yeah And she wants to be seen as something other than that. She's actively... like
00:38:04
Speaker
she She doesn't seem to be one of those women who, like again, we see in books these character these female characters that we see who aren't quite as feminine, but really want to be or really try to be or wish that everyone would see them as the beautiful woman they are. like She's not even trying that. She's like, nope, this is who I am, and it's working to my advantage, and I'm going to keep trying to get ahead, and I'm going to keep doing the best that I can do. and like we don't That's so rare in a female character.
00:38:33
Speaker
especially written by a man. and And so when they changed that in the movie, it was to me, it was really disappointing. Yeah, yeah I really liked her in the book. So I was like,
00:38:45
Speaker
and i And I think it really stood out the most to me personally during that scene when they're doing like the autopsy yeah um of the victim that was found in West Virginia. I think that's absolutely one of the reasons I couldn't do like five stars because I hated how much they changed their character. Yeah, no, I don't rate the movie five stars. The book is straight up five in my opinion, but the movie falls short. Yeah.
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So while Starling is doing this autopsy, she finds a pupa in the throat of the victim, just as Lecter predicted, and she has been scalped. And then they turn her over and they find these triangular patches of skin that have also been taken from her shoulders.
00:39:38
Speaker
And this is also where, which we mentioned before, they find out that Buffalo Bill killed her within four days. So it was a lot faster than the two weeks originally. And this is kind of
00:39:54
Speaker
that they're They're predicting that he's going to start killing more victims and that's going to be quicker. Yeah. so i mean That's a very um serial killer pattern though to escalate like that. And that's why another part that I loved about the book is it really did follow a lot of what we know now to be serial killer patterns. You know what I mean? So it was that much more realistic, that much more terrifying.
00:40:18
Speaker
Right. But this is also with the part in the book where I kind of like wanted to beat my head against a wall because to me it was like you guys don't recognize that he's making skin suits. Like that's it's so obvious to me in that moment that like this is a tailor like or something you know what I mean? But at one point Clarice kind of like references in the in the book that like only men have ever worked this case. It's it's always been men. like A woman would have noticed, a woman would have seen these things. And and I kind of like that that. Because even I was like, as a woman, I'm sitting here like, duh. you But like it really would have, like the men would have missed this in when the book was written in the 80s. Yeah, that makes sense that they didn't catch it, I guess. but
00:41:12
Speaker
Man, that pissed me off. I was like, come on guys, get it together. like The FBI for God's sake. True. So Starling takes the pupa to the Smithsonian. this is favorite This is honestly one of my favorite parts. It's a good part. Of the book. I love this part.
00:41:31
Speaker
Okay, yeah I really love this. I was gonna ask if you meant the book or the movie because no I love this part in the book because the fact like the whole process like the whole thought process of doing this and like taking this like bug that was in the girl that they found in the girl's throat And the idea in like your head to think, okay, so now we need to go test it because we need to go to like experts to go see where the ah bug would be like originated in because we need to see if somebody had put it there themselves or if it was like from being like in the water because they found her in water.
00:42:15
Speaker
And like then we can also see where it would have been located at because we can see where this bug Like where it would usually like reside at as I was like, oh my gosh. I love this I love like the clues like coming together. It's coming together right now. You're a forensic files girl aren't you?
00:42:34
Speaker
I love perfect success. I know, right? I was like, oh, I love this. Like the way that the clues were being told to me at this part, I was like, I just love it. Give it to me. Give it to me. I love it. I'm eating it up right now. So in the book, they originally think that it's a black witch moth.
00:42:57
Speaker
which is a species that doesn't naturally occur where the victim is found. But then later they identify it as a death's head moth, which is an even more exotic species. That doesn't even occur in this continent. Yeah. And it has to be raised in captivity from imported eggs. So it's not even out there in the wild. Yeah. And then they find a similar pupa in Klaus's head And then based on the, the one in the head in the jar head, the not to Marines, the head in the jar, the head in the jar, the floating head of the jar. Yeah. It's found in the storage unit. Yes. yes
00:43:46
Speaker
And then based on this connection, Starling believes that Lecter actually knows Buffalo Bill's identity. He just knows too much. Yeah. So she asks Crawford, who in the book is caring for his terminally ill wife, Bella, in the movie, he doesn't seem to have a wife. Yeah, I want to know something.
Crawford's Personal Life and Lecter's Manipulation
00:44:10
Speaker
Because, wait, Crystal, you read the first book, right?
00:44:14
Speaker
Is his wife very involved in the first book? Do you know or do you remember? Yes and no. Like she's not like super important to the story. Yeah. But it is his relationship with her is important to the story. Okay. Like the fact that he's a married man. Yeah. I felt like I was like, what is the significance of her? And I was like, it has to be from the first book. Like it has to have carried over from the first book.
00:44:40
Speaker
I think so. I think mostly it was that he needed to be distracted for there to be a reason for him to have chosen a trainee to help on something is really what it boils down to. I see. Yeah. Because if he would have been full on working this, he wouldn't have needed any help. But because he was at home as much as he was. Yeah. Well, there is a point in the book where he received a note. Well, he were questions um Clarice, where he's like, did you tell Lecter about anything about me? And she's like, no, I didn't tell i didn't tell him anything about you. And he's like, OK. And then he unfolds a note from Lecter that says, I'm so sorry about Bella. yeah So I was like, was there a connection between Bella Crawford and Lecter from like the first book?
00:45:37
Speaker
Basically, it's one of those that like yeah that's i was like uses Bella against him. Yeah, that's what I was like curious about because isn't there something in this book where Crawford doesn't want to see Lecter. like he doesn't get any There's no success with him seeing Lecter at all. and and I think it's more that Crawford recognizes that it would be more of a prize for Hannibal to have won if Crawford goes to him. Yeah. And Crawford's not going to let Hannibal win. Yeah. Right. Yeah. True. Also, can we talk about the fact that Lecter can smell like everything? Everything. Ew, I don't like that. I know a couple of people in my life
00:46:23
Speaker
who have like super sniffers, like thats we always joke that they're super sniffers that can smell things from across the room that you didn't even know existed. You know what I mean? And it, to when like I talked to them frankly about it, that one of them was like, no, it's actually kind of really awful because you have no idea how many horrible smells are out there. And and they might be faint to everyone else. You don't even know it.
00:46:51
Speaker
like It freaks me out because my one friend was like, no, I can tell when somebody's going to get sick. I can tell when they're getting a cold. I can tell when someone else has a sinus infection. I can tell when somebody else is on their period. It's awful because these are really deeply personal things that I don't necessarily want to know about other people and also I don't want to smell that. Because Lecter can smell the bandage on the back of her leg underneath her pants. Under her pants, yeah.
00:47:22
Speaker
And then he mentions, and I've read this before, but he mentioned something about being able to smell schizophrenia. isn who so It's fascinating and disgusting at the same time. it is Yeah, it's an interesting party trick.
00:47:36
Speaker
Not a party trick. Because he like grabs her her like ID like in the very, very beginning. He grabs her ID and he like goes like, smells it and he takes it back and he tells her the type of like lotion that she's wearing and I'm like, stop. yeah Don't do that again. He says that she normally wears this specific perfume, but she's not wearing it today. He explains it's because he can smell it from her bag. The inside of her bag smells like it, but she doesn't.
00:48:07
Speaker
Yeah. I'm like, stop. I'm scared. Don't do that again. Yeah. Yeah, no. But yes, Darling asks Crawford why she was sent to Lecter to fish for information on Buffalo Bill, but was told it was just some random questionnaire. Like, why did you use me? Why didn't you tell me? And Crawford claims that if she had an agenda, Lecter would have sensed it and he never would have spoken to her. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:39
Speaker
I didn't, so reading the book, I didn't realize that with Lecter's inner monologue, I
Buffalo Bill's Victims and Methods
00:48:46
Speaker
didn't realize he actually knew who Buffalo Bill was. I was just in the movie, I was just like, Oh my God, he's so smart. He's able to predict everything. I thought he was like, literally like a supervillain.
00:48:59
Speaker
I think it's a combination though, because like he really is smart enough to put a lot of stuff together that other people wouldn't have. But the fact that he knew who Buffalo Bill was from the very beginning definitely helped. Yeah. He had some insider information. yeah Right. But like he didn't necessarily know where Buffalo Bill would be, you know what I mean? Because he hadn't seen him in in years, but somehow he figured that out too, you know what I mean? Well, he's been watching the news and reading the papers, so he knew as soon as the body started coming up in a specific area and the condition of the body. I know that guy. He's like, oh, no, that's him. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because you learned that
00:49:44
Speaker
Buffalo Bill killed Klaus or Roswell, and he actually turned him into an apron in the book. Yeah. So it wasn't the first time. His first victim that he caught up wasn't his first victim. It was actually Klaus or Roswell. And we don't even know if Klaus or Roswell was the first.
00:50:03
Speaker
Like they might've been- Yeah. Well, he killed his grandparents. Well, he do know that. Yeah. But there might've been someone between there. We just know that Klaus Oraspel, whichever, is like the first one that we find out about that he skinned. that and Well, the the first one that Lecter knows about. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So now we go to Tennessee where we meet Katherine Baker Martin. She is the daughter of Senator Ruth Martin and she is kidnapped.
00:50:32
Speaker
And within six hours, her blouses found on the roadside slid up the back, which is Buffalo Bill's calling card. He traps her and... He clubs her with a cat, like tricks her. Yeah. He's wearing a cast on his arm and like pretending to like load some stuff into his truck and like he's having a hard time. Like he can't load it into like his truck. Cause he's got a broken arm. And she being a good Samaritan is like, you know, do you need some help? I can help you. And this is straight out of the Ted Bundy guide for killing people. Absolutely. but He did that. He did that. Exactly that. So I i was like,
00:51:12
Speaker
Oh, that's our guy. Don't help people who are hurt. They're faking it. Stranger danger. Stranger your nature Yes. So if you like lesson to all of our listeners, if you see someone who is clearly injured in some way or disabled in some way asking for help,
00:51:31
Speaker
in the dark all alone, maybe be like in a van someone for you. In a creepy van with no windows. Right? Yeah. like go Go call someone else to come help. like yeah Get a group of people to help. I'm not saying don't help. I'm just saying let's help smart, okay? Get safe. like Yeah, do it smart. I would rather you be rude and alive than kind and kidnapped.
00:51:58
Speaker
I'm just saying. Beautiful words of advice. Yeah. This is advice from Crystal. There you go. So yeah, he tricks her into trying to lift this chair couch thing to put into the van, clubs her over the head with a cast. She wakes up in a will. ah And then he begins to- Three of my life. Oh God, I hope not. Please no. No, no. So then he begins to starve her. And this was normally our two week period. It's the starvation.
00:52:28
Speaker
Crawford is advised that even the pres- Can I say something funny? Yes. I have a funny comment. Okay. So at this point in the book, I was like, you know, I was trying to like cosplay as a detective, you know, because I don't read detective books like this ever. So I'm like, oh, I'm going to figure this out. and now I'm going to figure it out. Detective Carrie is on the case. Don't worry. Detective Carrie is here.
00:52:58
Speaker
So I'm thinking like three, four steps ahead the entire time. o And when you do that, you can't see like what's directly in front of you. true right okay so at this point in the book i'm pretty sure that we were in the perspective of buffalo bill for a second yes and i'm pretty sure he is um taking care of his dog or something and he goes to the well and is like throwing food down the well for a second
00:53:32
Speaker
And you hear like a little, you hear like a please, like like, she's like, please, like at the bottom of the well. And then it cuts to like going to like Crawford and Clarice and stuff to the next chapter. I immediately in my head they was thinking, oh, this is like a different character in the story. And he doesn't know that the girl has been thrown down in this well at his house.
00:54:03
Speaker
That's literally what I was thinking. I swear on my life. Five chapters later, I went, oh my gosh, that was actually.
00:54:17
Speaker
If I ever go missing, y'all, please don't leave this up to Carrie to find me. Carrie, I'm so sorry to say I think you failed the FBI training. That's why I'm the clueless detective. You're going to get recycled. Sorry. That is the clueless detective in me because I was like, oh my gosh, this guy, he doesn't know that she's down in that well. He didn't hear her say please.
00:54:44
Speaker
He's just throwing food scraps down there. Yeah. Oh Lord. That's like his compost well. Yeah. Like it wasn't computing because I was like thinking too far ahead and I was like, and then five chapters later, I was like,
00:54:58
Speaker
That was the guy.
Cultural Context and Stakes
00:55:00
Speaker
We were there. We were right there with him. Oh, my God. Oh, Lord. OK. I just had to say that really quick because honestly, funny that's what makes me the clueless detective, because and that was like a plot twist to me and it wasn't supposed to be a plot twist. No. but While Carrie's over here completely lost, this is the part where I was really mad because like Like, he kidnaps bigger girls, ah right? And he's like, are USIs 14? Yeah. And she's like, what? And he's like, perfect. but And I'm over here like, oh, shit. I'm like an 18. I'm done for. Like, I'm a goner.
00:55:43
Speaker
I know the second that was like the whole concept of like why he can I was like, oh, no, I'm done. I'm done for. No, if it's nice, 14 is your your bigger fat girl. And that's like through the whole book. They like fat, tubbo, like they're making this sound like big, big girls. No size 14. Like, yeah, I haven't seen 14 in like 10 years. Like,
00:56:11
Speaker
Maybe 15 years. It's been a while, okay? Like, I'm just not... I'm i'm not that and that. But, like, I wouldn't consider myself, like, tubo, lard-ass, whale, you know? like Like, geez, what would they think of me? like You know? I think the actress who played um Katherine Baker Martin, I think she... That's Dr. Han. I think she put on 25 pounds for that role.
00:56:39
Speaker
And she was so perfect. I was like, Dr. Holland, you have patience. Get out of the well. Get out of the well. Someone's coding. Someone's coding right now. Get out of the well. So at this point, we'll find out that the President of the United States is interested in this case. well because Because the Congresswoman is, this is the Congresswoman's daughter. Did we say that part already? Yes.
00:57:08
Speaker
Yeah, Senator ru Martin. I really did promise not to to drag this podcast off the rails like I tend to. It's our Halloween special. And yes, here we are. It's fine. Okay. As in the United States. and It's interest in the case. so Uh, and they want to see the FBI is like, all right, buddy, we're on it. Yeah. And they want a successful rescue Crawford estimates that they have three days. So it's an even shorter window than the previous four before Buffalo bill kills Catherine Starling is sent to Lecter with the offer that if he assists in saving Catherine.
00:57:54
Speaker
and capturing Buffalo Bill that he will be transferred out of the asylum to a facility that allows him a view with privileges one week a year to visit a secluded beach and enjoy the outdoors. Which is something he's been wanting and asking for. He wants a view. But also like didn't like the whole like plus a week of a vacation like I don't know about y'all, but instantly, and I don't understand why Hannibal Lecter didn't instantly just be like, this is a lie. like that's the ah we like What killer serving nine consecutive life sentences gets one week of vacation every year? He also gets a job. He also gets to evaluate other cases. like I don't believe it. and and He should have in that moment been like, no, y'all lying.
00:58:42
Speaker
ahs He is skeptic. He doesn't completely fully believe her. He doesn't think the offer is genuine. But he does give up some info. But he also doesn't believe that Starling would intentionally lie to him because they've got that relationship. Yeah, they got a connection. He tells her that Buffalo Bill has come to believe he was a transsexual.
00:59:09
Speaker
despite the self-diagnosis consistently being deemed false by doctors. So this causes him to be rejected for sexual reassignment surgery by multiple hospitals. and This becomes like a big point. This is one of their there leads to search. And this is again where the movie deviates from the book and why the movie is kind of hated in um a lot of LGBTQIA plus circles. In the book, they very specifically and repeatedly bring up that transsexual individuals like generally are are very, they're pacifists. They have a tendency to be very low aggression. They are like have a lower crime rate compared to the rest of the pop general population.
01:00:03
Speaker
And in the book, they're like, that is correct. We agree. This guy is not that. He is not a transsexual. He is messed up in the head and he thinks that he belongs to this group that he does not belong to. But in the movie, they mention it like once yeah and then move on and and we are continued It's kind of pushed in our face that this guy's a wackadoo because he's a transsexual rather than he is acting as a transsexual because he's wackadoo. like It's a the other way. In the book, I feel like they do a really good job of separating those two things, and in the movie, they definitely do not. Yeah. They even go over all of his tests that he has to take and right what his answers are compared to what an actual
01:00:57
Speaker
transsexual person's answers would be like the genuine answers. I will say like I know that we keep saying transsexual too. That's because that's the terminology used in the book and in the movie. Yeah. Like obviously a lot has changed since this book was written, since the movie came out, but trying to kind of keep with the terminology in the book for any listeners who might not know any better or may kind of still be learning from the book.
LGBTQ Themes and Lecter's Escape
01:01:24
Speaker
But I feel like that's very much a I just, I feel like they, I feel like the movie did our alphabet community friends a disservice in this regard. I feel like the movie, rather than trying to distance, you know, the, the transgender, the the transsexual community from the psycho, the way the book did,
01:01:57
Speaker
they kind of smashed them together really hard. Yeah. And I like that really just made your ick, especially watching it now 10 years later, like, because so much has changed even in the last 10 years. I like, ill you know, like that was not cool. and But in the book, I feel like for a book written in the eighties, he did a really good job of saying, of separating the two really well, I think, I think. Yeah.
01:02:26
Speaker
so Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. Like I totally agree. Like they kind of dig in in the book how that he's definitely not.
01:02:39
Speaker
ah transsexual and he's not uh he does not uh fall under that title and that these types of crimes would not fall under that title and i just felt like i don't know like i like you said crystal like it just gave me the movie kind of just gave me the ick a little bit regarding that yeah for sure So after Starling leaves, Lecter, he begins reminiscing on the past and he recalls the therapy session during which he murdered Benjamin Russell. This is when he told Lecter about a former lover, Jame Gum. What a name. Jame. Jame.
01:03:29
Speaker
james So after Raspell left Gum, he began dating a sailor named Klaus, which again, this is not in the movie. Gum became, Gum became jealous and murdered Klaus using his skin to make an apron. This is also when Raspell revealed that Gum had an epiphany after watching a butterfly hatch. So this was his transformation. And Again, this hints at all of the pupas that they're finding in the victims. Mm-hmm. Lectors interrupted when Chilton steps in. Turns out there was a listening device that was taped to the desk that she was sitting at. And he recorded Starling's offer and then found out that the offer was a lie. Crawford's deal is not real.
01:04:26
Speaker
And then he offers Lecter his own deal. If Lecter reveals buffo Buffalo Bill's identity, he will get the transfer to another asylum, but only if Chilton gets credit for getting the information from Lecter. And Lecter agrees, but insists that he would be allowed to give the information to Senator Martin in person in Tennessee.
01:04:52
Speaker
um Chilton doesn't know Chilton doesn't know that Lecter has secretly collected the ingredients for an improvised handcuff lockpick. And Lecter believes that it'll be useful at some point during this trip to Tennessee. This is also kind of different in the book in the movie because in the book, I think it's just some random interviewer or doctor or somebody accidentally left the pen. And like in the book, they kind of referred to it having happened well in the past. Yes. And that that Hannibal just kind of took advantage of it in the past thinking he might need this in the future. Yes. And he was like filing it down at night. Shaping it. and bent Yeah. like And was like callousing his hands. He's working on it so long.
01:05:49
Speaker
And then the movie, is just it just kind of happens. And it's also Chilton's fault. so That did make me feel good that it was like, we're going to blame Chilton for this. I liked it. Yeah. And in Tennessee, Lecter Toys with Senator Martin briefly enjoying the woman's anguish, but eventually gives her some information about Buffalo Bill. Again, it's a little different but between the book and the movie. In the book, his name is Billy Rubin.
01:06:18
Speaker
And he suffers from elephant ivory anthrax, which is a knife maker's disease. He also provides an accurate physical description. So he actually does describe Buffalo Bill, Jane gum. But the name is a red herring. Billy Rubin is a pigment in human bile.
01:06:42
Speaker
and a chief coloring agent and human feces and see like I knew that when I was when I read this book the first time and when so I read when I read the name Billy Rubin I was like Billy Rubin yeaho who hasn't figured this out like it's so obvious but I guess my family's just weird because we talk about like like I have my grandfather was a doctor. So we talk about like weird stuff sometimes in our family. And I guess that's not common knowledge. i Yeah. Also, who describes that as someone's hair color? I know. They say that's Chilton's hair color. I guess because they didn't have anything nicer to say about him.
01:07:22
Speaker
That's why I'm calling him a shithead. Pretty much.
01:07:29
Speaker
and So Starling tries one last time to get information from Lecter as he's held in police custody in Tennessee. And he does offer her a final clue. We covet what we see every day. And he demands to hear her worst memory.
01:07:51
Speaker
This is when she reveals that after her father's death, she goes to live on the the farm or the ranch. And one night she is awoken by a scream and the farmer is slaughtering the spring lambs. And she flees in terror with a horse named Hannah, who is also destined for the slaughterhouse. And in the book,
01:08:19
Speaker
It's not a horse that she flees with. She actually tries to set the lambs free and she actually runs away with the lamb. In the movie or in the book? In the movie she runs away with the lamb. In the book she runs away with the horse. right So the farmer catches her and sends her to an orphanage. This is where she spent the rest of her childhood with the horse, with Hannah. And Hannah gets to cart around children even though she's blind.
01:08:49
Speaker
in the movie, the lamb dies. They kill the lamb. So Lecter sees the parallels between the helpless lambs and the helpless victims like Catherine. And then they share a brief moment.
01:09:08
Speaker
where their hands touch. Oh, Clarice and Hannibal. So Chilton comes back. He's in the room and he's like, no, you can't be here. You need to leave. He's like, oh, hell no. So before Clarice is escorted out of the room, Lecter goes to give her back the Buffalo Bill case file. And I think this is another big moment that they kind of changed between the book and the movie, at least the way I perceived it. right So when she goes to reach for the case file in the book, it sounds like she reaches for his finger and touches his finger. She's the one that initiates contact.
01:09:52
Speaker
And in the movie, it's Lecter who actually yeah initiates the contact, but she doesn't like pull away. She doesn't freak out, so I'll get on that. But it just felt more like she was actually trying to make a connection with Lecter in the book by initiating the contact. hu I feel like this this is when, to me, like as soon as Lecter gets to Tennessee,
01:10:15
Speaker
This is when this turns into a Sarah J Moss book and like the next like from this point on, the whole world explodes and everything happens all at once. Just bla boom, boom, boom, boom. The last 100 pages of the book? Yeah. like It is intense and I could not put it down. like I was up in like just true crystal fashion. I waited until the last minute to finish this book. I thought,
01:10:42
Speaker
and i thought just so right i thought well, I'll read most of it tonight and I'll read some of it tomorrow and and get caught up. No. I got to this point and I was up until after midnight, I could not put in I don't do well if I don't sleep. So that's a big deal if I give that up. But I was like, we're gonna we're gonna get through this because there was no good place to stop. It was just that good. this This is this is getting to the part where I mentioned it at the very beginning, where I was like,
01:11:16
Speaker
i I felt like I figured it out before they actually explained it in the book. And I was like, oh, oh, I know what it is. I know what happened, which, you know, I had seen the movie, so I knew. Right. But for some reason, reading the book, I was only picturing the characters from the movie and I wasn't actually picturing the storyline. And it was almost like I was reading it or seeing it for the first time. Like I had no idea what was going to happen.
01:11:39
Speaker
Yeah. It's such a good book. It is very good, yeah. but Shortly after this encounter, Lecter uses his makeshift lock pick and he escapes by killing the stars. The most To me, this is the most chilling, horrific, like yeah.
01:12:03
Speaker
And Anthony Hopkins face. Yeah. As he's beating this guard to death. And the blood is splattering and he's just like kind of blank face, just like, Oh, it's ah it's another day. He's not like grimacing. He's not like, yep you know, he's just like, Oh, and the music is playing, you know, music's playing and he's just beating the daylights out of this prison guard. yep please like yeah my My heart rate is like that slow on a good day. like my heart my heart was My heart rate wasn't that slow reading this. I was laying in bed reading this and my heart rate was probably over a hundred. i was just i
01:12:49
Speaker
flipping the page, flipping the page. like What happens next? like And I know, I've read it, I know what's going on, but it was just that good. Yeah. So yes, Lecter kills the guards and stages this elaborate escape plan. Which was crazy. So So wild. i li That was so unexpected to me.
01:13:11
Speaker
And you know, because he had no idea he was going to be in Tennessee two days ago or even yesterday. This is all new to him. So he came up with this plan on the fly. Yeah, especially after he saw the fact that the guard was the same size as him and he was like, Oh, I got it. Are you 14? And then the fact that he had a pocket knife. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, spoiler.
01:13:38
Speaker
He cuts the guard's face off. And then wears it. And then wears it. And wears it. And... Buffalo Bill style. Yeah. Took one right out of Buffalo Bill's playbook. Yep. Put space on and pretends to be this guard. So once he's attracted everyone else up to the fifth floor, they think he is the guard. I think it was Pembery. Yeah. And they were like, oh, his face is mutilated because Hannibal Lecter was in here. And they think he's like injured on the ground. Right. And he's like, talk to him. His name is Pembery. Talk to him.
01:14:15
Speaker
Yeah, so he looks all messed up. like yeah Yeah, he's wearing someone else's face. He's lying to him. You look good. You look good, look hard buddy. You're gonna be fine. Yeah, take him on the ambulance. Ambulance. i Never seen again. Yeah, they take them out. And then while they're taking the guard out on the stretcher, the the rest of the officers are in the elevator and blood starts to drip from the top of the elevator and they go to investigate and they see the they see the prisoner, they see Lecter laying on the top of the elevator. And in the movie, they shoot them once in the leg to get them to react. They don't really do that in the book. They investigate a little more thorough.
01:15:01
Speaker
But it turns out that the guard is dead on top of the elevator.
Clarice's Determination and Final Confrontation
01:15:06
Speaker
What they thought was lector is not lector, it's actually the guard. But again, this is just more brilliance because like they don't even realize anything's wrong. that like They think that this poor guard is in the ambulance being driven to the hospital to try and save his life.
01:15:22
Speaker
and this is Hannibal Lecter they have, and this is this just allows the real Hannibal who is in the ambulance that much more time to get away. Also, they mentioned this in the book. They don't mention it in the movie, but as the officers get to the fifth floor and they see the scene and they're like, call the ambulance, call the ambulance. and The ambulance shows up and they're like, oh, they respond really quickly. That that was fast. That was interesting. And then they reveal later that Lecter had actually called them in advance.
01:15:54
Speaker
before the officers got to the floor and he already had them inbound. So yeah, their reaction time wasn't as quick as they expected, but it's because Lecter called in advance. He planned everything. I loved that bit of information. Insanity. Yeah, that was well thought out. Crazy like a fox, that one. So Crawford and Starling are blamed by the attorney general's office for Lecter's escape.
01:16:25
Speaker
Yep. ran Because they're like, she had to have given him something. She had to have, you know, like they had to have planned something. She's visited him so much. Like, again of course it's the woman's fault. Like, gotta to blame it on the woman. Okay, fine. And then they, they threatened to expel her from Quantico. And then it just so happens that the same day, Bella Crawford passes away.
01:16:53
Speaker
And despite the risk to her career, Starling continues to search for Buffalo Bill. And she comes to the conclusion that he had to have known his first victim because his first victim was weighed down when she was put in the river. He took way more precautions with with that first one and he did the rest. His first victim was Frederica Bimmel, I think it was.
01:17:25
Speaker
Yeah. And Clarice visits her family home and checks out her room, discovers that she was an accomplished tailor. And then that's when they realize that Buffalo Bill was making skin suits based on a pattern that Frederica had sewn into a dress.
01:17:53
Speaker
So yeah, he's making a suit for himself. I will say there was another clue in the movie that was not in the book, or at least I don't remember it being in the book, where Hannibal Lecter says something along like, it's simplicity, it's simplicity. Well, simplicity is a company that makes patterns for like different dress patterns and shirt patterns and stuff. Oh my gosh. And when he says it, he doesn't it doesn't quite make sense in his sentence. and so it like To me, I was like, the dress pattern. like Oh my gosh, that's insane. I think that one in the movie, I think that was the equivalent to him asking Clarice if she sews. Right. Because when she's interviewing him, he says, do you sew? It's out of nowhere, random. I'm like, why are you asking that? Right. Clarice goes to interview
01:18:53
Speaker
the first victim, Frederica's associates and friends and things like that. And she ends up at the home of one of... Well, I guess she's not... It's the lady that she used to help do alterations for. Yeah. This woman did alterations for some of the local shops and stuff. And Frederica was like her assistant and did some of the overflow work.
01:19:24
Speaker
In the book, it almost sounded like the bottom of the house was a storefront. Right. And I wasn't sure if it was actually like a storefront or if it was a home. h But obviously, gum is living in this home.
01:19:39
Speaker
she goes in and is speaking with um not knowing who he is. I like how they did this in the movie though. Yes. It was good. The way they did that in the movie because you think that the way that they have it they're filming both Crawford and Clarice at the same time are um they're filming what Gom is doing right and like inside his house and he hears like the doorbell ring and Crawford is ringing the doorbell at a different location that he thinks
01:20:10
Speaker
gone right because they have two addresses for me I'm not sure which one is correct yeah yeah and so we're like seeing these in tandem back back and back back and forth so gum goes to answer the door and it's actually Clarice and Crawford is actually at the wrong location mm-hmm And I just, I was like, oh my gosh, I love how that was like perfect. Yeah, they did it really well in the movie. and Like it was good in the book, but it was really good in the movie. Yeah, that was so good. I loved it. So as Clarice is speaking to Gum, trying to figure out if there's any way she can get like previous business records or something from the previous owner, she sees the Deathhead moth.
01:20:55
Speaker
fly, it's on his back and it flies off of him. He sees it and notices that she's not looking at it. She won't even take a second to glance at it. That's when he knows he's been got. Yeah. He's like, oh shit. She asks to use his phone and he was like, oh yeah, it's in my pantry in the kitchen. Let me go get it. And then he runs in the basement. Yeah.
01:21:22
Speaker
And she chases him in the basement. Now I will say, I love that in the book, we get her thought process of like, I don't want to go down there. I know this is a trap. I know this can't be good. But I also know that Catherine's probably down there. yeah like Because we all know we're in the movie, we all scream like, don't go down there. Don't go down there. So like hearing her kind of think through it, like, OK, she kind of has to.
01:21:48
Speaker
you know So she only has her revolver. She doesn't have any protective gear or anything. She's really not prepared for this. Nobody knows she's going there. She has the idea that, you know, oh, they have two addresses. Hopefully this is the other address because they should have already been there 45 minutes and they were going to be there.
01:22:08
Speaker
So yeah, she goes down there and and she has that brief interaction with Catherine, which I didn't really like in the movie. but Just because she calls her, what does Catherine call? Clarice? She calls her all kinds of names. like you Like a stupid bitch or something. You stupid bitch get me out of here or something like that. She was screaming at her because I mean,
01:22:37
Speaker
I mean, if you're like literally been like down there forever and this person's not immediately ASAP, like getting you out of this well. Right. And you're like going insane. Like get me out of here right now. Well, and then that you get me out of there. She's screaming at her in the book. Right. And they but they talk about it in the book that like just before She gets captured that light or gets kind of found before Clarice gets there. She is pretty sure she's not gonna have the strength to Yeah, you're not she's weak. It's already been a few days. She hasn't hardly had anything to eat at all Yeah, not she's cold. She's got the shivers. I'm sorry but i got Also, I got this freaking psycho running around about to like right. Let me out of here. Let's go They both, they both know at this point he has a gun. Yeah. So like I gotta like have my, if I'm Clarice, I gotta have my head on a swivel first. I did, I did like how in the book Clarice is like, look, I can't get you out of here.
01:23:45
Speaker
Yes, there is like a hoist. There's like something that I can use to get you out, but I'm not going to be strong enough. And I don't know that it's going to be strong enough. So we're going to wait until more people are here so we can get you out safely. Right. She already broke her finger when he kicked her in there the first time or however he dropped her in there. i Like in the movie, when she's screaming, out I like internally, I want to be like, be quiet, like shut up. But I do love how she's in that situation. I would probably be like freaking out.
01:24:15
Speaker
And I do love that Clarice is like very matter of fact, like you have to be quiet. I have to listen. Yeah. Shut that dog up. yeah flake I was like, yes, that's pretty much how I would do it. I'd be like, you need to shut up. Shut the dog up. I got business to take care of. Yeah. yeah it We got to get out of here. So I got a.
01:24:34
Speaker
get it together and then the lights go off and then the lights go off like right after so she finds her way into a bathroom down there and there's a body in the bathtub yeah yeah i was curious who that was if that was well because they do have mentioned a few times that like he has other victims that are dead in some of these rooms in the basement because he liked to like play hide and seek basically with them. He liked to hunt them in the basement with his night vision goggles. Oh, and in the movie, there's just like a little skin suits like hanging around by the way. Just hanging around. On the mannequins and whatnot. Oh, and there are mannequins. Lots of mannequins. That's creepy enough. But now they're also wearing skin. Yeah. Ew. So lights go out.
01:25:24
Speaker
uh, Clarice like goes into training mode. She knows where her gun is. She's trying to maneuver through the dark and she hears the click of the revolver and she turns and shoots and she hits. James gum in the chest, which is where he shot his last victim was in the chest. And I thought that was some, I felt like it could have been symbolic, but I thought it was just wonderful. It was badass. Yeah. In the book, it's still dark. In the movie, like a stray bullet breaks a window or something, and suddenly like the whole room is flooded with light. Because she shoots what? Like four or five rounds. Yeah, was because I was gonna say like six rounds. He shoots off like one or two. She gets some gunpowder on her cheek. Right.
01:26:22
Speaker
But yes, she happens to catch a window and there's lights in the room. Yeah. Whereas in the book, she's just listening in the dark and she can hear some raspy noise. that She knows it's not her breathing, but she knows the sound and it's Jane Gump dying. And she has to find her way out of the basement. In the dark, still pitch black. Yeah, it's black. and So she's got to find her way out to go find a way to turn the lights back on, but she ends up like lighting it going upstairs and finding a candle to bring back down. I just got the chills like thinking about, like oh like like, you're in the basement and you're like trying to like find your way around, like touching little skin suits everywhere. In the pitch black. In the pitch black. You have no idea what you're touching. Yeah.
01:27:11
Speaker
And then you just add the moths flying around your head. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I hate moths. I don't like moths and like they're just like fluttering by your ear. No. That's like a haunted house right there. No, thank you. So we kind of like, we don't, which is weird to me because this book is pretty detailed in a lot of ways, but like this part is just like, she finds a candle, she comes back down and gets Catherine.
01:27:38
Speaker
Yeah. And then everyone else arrives to kind of clean it all up. Yep. Yeah. We just kind of like skip, which I guess what were they going to say? Like, yeah, she sat down waiting for her to arrive. Like, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
01:27:51
Speaker
True. And then I still can't believe that despite doing all of this for the FBI, that she still has to do her tests to even pass. I know. Can we just pass the girl? She just did all this stuff? Pretty much. That was some serious extra credit, my friends. Yeah. Let her go. In the movie, she does graduate immediately. She still has the pink on her cheek where she's healing from the gunpowder. And they're like, congratulations. You're in the FBI.
Lecter's Future Plans and Fictional Villains
01:28:17
Speaker
And then in the book, she's like, oh, I got to go cram for this test on Monday.
01:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, like her roommate is like helping her or something. Yep. Yeah, that's miserable. Yeah. Like I I would be so upset if I just did all this stuff for the FBI almost died and I still got to go take a a midterm.
01:28:40
Speaker
No, thanks. But then we do hear from Hannibal again. Yes. Then we are back to Lecter. He is hiding in, I think St. Louis is where he is now. In the book. Yes. In the movie, he just goes straight to- South America. Yeah, somewhere in South America. He's like in a weird disguise. It's a leisure suit is what it really boils down to. He's wearing some sort of leisure suit.
01:29:06
Speaker
sitting in a cabana, watching people get off the, and I don't know if it was a boat or a train, I don't remember, but like just watching people show up. Yeah. Creeper. In the book, he's planning this trip to South America. He's been hiding out in, it's like this resort for people who have plastic surgery.
01:29:27
Speaker
ah medical spa. Yeah. And he's got the the gauze and bandages on his face, which is normal because everyone does. And he's been injecting himself with like some silicone. Yeah, to like alter his appearance. so no one He's been giving himself filler. Exactly. Because they you know they everybody knows who he is. he's Exactly. He's super famous. so like But he was all like, I can hang out at this place because everybody's got bandages on their face, so I won't look out of place. right Really brilliant, honestly. It's a good plan. But he writes several letters. He white he writes one to Barney, who is the orderly at the asylum.
01:30:09
Speaker
Which I thought one was really nice. It was really sweet. It was really sweet. He wrote one to Chilton promising that he's coming for him. And then he also writes one to Starling. And he says that he hopes the lambs have stopped screaming and he has no plans of pursuing her. And he hopes that she will return the same courtesy. Yep.
01:30:37
Speaker
And then- I thought it was nice. I thought it was nice, too. See, in the movie, he just calls her and was like- He's Hannibal. He's like, I'm in South America. Oh, he doesn't say I'm in South America. He's like, tell you I'm not telling you where I am. i visit I'm visiting. I'm going to have an old friend for dinner. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah. I was like, Girl dinner. Oh, my God. Girl dinner. No. Girl dinner.
01:31:06
Speaker
Oh Lord. Oh my God, that's horrible. When we get sound effects in our podcast and we get cool enough to have sound effects, we need the girl dinner sound. like We need that on our list. Can you imagine like it's Hannibal the Cannibal going, girl dinner. Oh my God. You would. Oh man. Can you imagine Hannibal with TikTok? Oh Lord.
01:31:31
Speaker
Oh, definitely glad this book was written in the 80s. I don't know how we could have, we could have put social media in there at all. Can you imagine Hannibal, the cannibal? Hey guys, welcome back to my channel. He's got a cooking channel. Oh my God. and And once in a while he does some like mini episodes where he like dives into the psychology of something, you know. He's like Gordon Ramsay. Oh my god. This is the wine you need to pair with this organ. Oh my god. Hell's Kitchen. Hell's Kitchen Hannibal's laughter style.
01:32:13
Speaker
Okay. Talk about kitchen nightmares. yeah Literally. Literally. Okay. Oh, but that's, that's basically the end. but Well, at least in the movie, in the book, Clarice hooks up with one of the doctors from the Smithsonian. Which was really cute. It was cute. Good for her. In the, in the movie, he was kind of creepy. I didn't like him very much. No, in the movie, he was a little creepy, but in the, in the, in the book, he did good. Yeah. Yeah.
01:32:45
Speaker
And overall, it was I mean, it was a pretty spot on adaptation. So kudos. Yeah, honestly, I thought that it was good. I think it fell short in a couple of places that the book. Yeah. They did such a great job. The movie kind of didn't quite like personally, I give the movie like a three and a half. Yeah, it's definitely worth watching. Definitely worth watching. So that's your final verdict. That's my final verdict. The book is just so freaking good. and I can't I I just I can't say enough good things about this one.
01:33:15
Speaker
Carrie, what's your final verdict? I probably feel around the same about the book in the movie. Like I have like my own personal issues with both that probably even it out. Worth reading? Yeah, totally worth watching. Yeah, 100% for both.
01:33:40
Speaker
This was like a really fun experience reading and watching it for the very first time. I'm really happy that I got to do it with both of you guys. Aww. That was super fun.
01:33:52
Speaker
It's such a good Halloween book. Yeah, 100 percent. Honestly, actually not as scary as I thought it would be. It is more psychological than it is. like Yeah, or more psychological. Not so scary. Definitely not like jump scary. ah Maybe a little like nightmare fuel. Kind of disgusting. ah Actually really
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:34:18
Speaker
disgusting. But I I honestly enjoyed reading and watching it. Well, good. Well, that brings us to our question of the episode. I'm really excited for this one. If you had to seek advice from a notorious villain to solve a mystery, who would it be and why? Carrie, I want to hear yours. I'm excited. Don't start with me. Do not start with me, because mine's not that good.
01:34:50
Speaker
okay you have to tell us okay mine okay mine is not a notorious it's not a notorious quote notorious villain okay oh and also i have to i have a disclaimer that i don't like I don't watch a lot of like superhero stuff. i don't watch a lot I have not, Crystal, don't don't come for me. and i last I haven't seen a lot of sci-fi stuff, okay? And I literally, I don't know a ton of and notorious villains. I'm just gonna say that. so my So this is from what I watch a lot.
01:35:33
Speaker
My notorious villain that I want to help solve a mystery is Spike from Buffy the Vampire.
01:35:47
Speaker
but oh yeah is it Oh, isn't that actor? Oh, James Marsters. Is that it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so he does the voice of for the audio books of one of my favorite series. He's so good. He does a lot of he actually does a lot of the Shadowhunter series as well.
01:36:04
Speaker
He's an awesome human being, too. Yes, he's an amazing human being, but he is a villain. He's a villain. Technically a villain. And Buffy's a vampire slayer. Also a great sidekick to Buffy later on and helps her solve mysteries.
01:36:22
Speaker
So there you go. So I think I know I legit thought you were going to say the bone carver. So I know. No, I wanted it to be more like obvious and more recognized. OK. OK. OK. Yeah. Crystal, my man's con. Like Nuneon saying the con from his like con. star tre Yeah. Like he's a super like Hannibal Lecter style, like super genius. So I feel like he could definitely Give me some solid advice on how to catch other crazy psychos, because he is indeed a crazy psycho himself. Although, just like Hannibal Lecter, I'd probably get trapped in whatever web he was going to spend for me, and I'd end up dead too. So. Fair. Worth it, though. Kind of like my villain, I went with the master from Doctor Who. Ooh. So he can help me solve the mystery of a time paradox, because it's something only a time lord can understand.
01:37:20
Speaker
That would be pretty awesome. Yup. Wow, mine sucked. No, yours is really good. I love yours. Imagine the three of them together. Oh my gosh. I almost went with Moriarty from Sherlock. Yeah, that would be a good one too. There's just a lot of really good villains out there. And they're all crazy psycho and they go and get you, so.
01:37:44
Speaker
Don't work with him. Don't do it in a smart way. You'd end up notorious for being one of his victims. Don't tell him anything personal. Don't tell him anything. There's so many rules. Just follow the rules. You'll be fine. Yep. Well, all right. I think that about wraps up our Halloween special. Great way to end the spooky season.
01:38:10
Speaker
ah Don't forget to follow Rate Review and download our podcast and check us out on social media. We have Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. And this is where you'll find our reading schedules, sneak peeks, and bonus material for each episode. Read along with us and send us your recommendations for adaptations we should cover. Our email is based on a book podcast at gmail dot.com.
01:38:35
Speaker
So thank you for joining us during our first spooky season. And as always, we hope to see you in the next chapter of