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281 Isabelle Mongeau | Fantasy Author
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What happens when real-world political anger sparks a dark fantasy trilogy? Isabelle Mongeau discusses her debut novel, The Debtor's Game, a dark fantasy inspired by the Palace of Versailles and American politics, where your financial debt is tattooed directly onto your skin.
Isabel shares her journey from writing unpublished crime thrillers to finding her voice in fantasy, the crucial difference between "romantasy" and her focus on political intrigue, and how she learned to stop over-outlining and trust the drafting process.
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Transcript
The Art of Writing in Storytelling
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, a spicy question. I love Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writer... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and
Guest Introduction: Isabel Nwanjo
00:00:15
Speaker
welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by a freelance writer, editor and novelist whose debut novel came out earlier this year. It's Isabel Nwanjo. Hello.
00:00:27
Speaker
Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for coming on. ah
Exploring 'The Debtor's Game'
00:00:36
Speaker
As always with this podcast, um we like to start with the kind of latest publication, which excitingly is your debut novel, The Debtor's Game.
00:00:45
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about it. Right. Yeah. So The Debtor's Game is the first novel in a dark fantasy trilogy. It is set in a world in which your debt is tattooed on your body.
00:01:00
Speaker
um through these magical tattoos that can be added at any time. The setting is kind of inspired by the Palace of Versailles on the eve of the French Revolution and the politics are American.
00:01:14
Speaker
the as in current American politics yes okay yes um yeah uh yes but um yeah so I wanted to I'll just add a little bit more but basically yeah when I was writing this novel I wanted to write a fantasy novel that was about like the US, but I wanted it to be thematically linked with other points in history or period period time periods in history that I felt were relevant to the discussion. Okay. Yeah. I see the, I see the Versailles connection now. Yeah. yeah I mean, I, it's so funny because whenever i like talk about these things, I'm like, it'll be fun. I could talk about this. We'll find out, I guess, after the episode comes out if it's okay. No, I'm kidding.
00:02:09
Speaker
I mean, realistically, but like you know, if anyone reads the book, they're going to say, oh, this is shockingly close to like current events and things like that. But I mean, that's also the beauty of sci-fi and fantasy. And it
Fantasy as a Lens for Current Issues
00:02:21
Speaker
has been, you know, the history of the genre is basically like satirizing the world in what is ah a safe space because it's so far removed from reality.
00:02:29
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And that's actually why i chose to write it as a fantasy novel. um Actually, the Debtor's Game is the first fantasy novel I've ever written. um i had written other novels before um that were, that was crime fiction. um And then I, you know, I was not signed and I was not publishing those, but I was like writing them to learn how to write a novel. And It's the first fantasy novel that I've written. i was writing crime novels before. i was not signed with an agent or a publisher when I was writing those.
00:03:04
Speaker
But I started writing The Debtor's Game in like 2022, 2023, the fall of 2023, because essentially i had all of these feelings and thoughts. that and It was like a combustion in my body about and I was feeling very angry about like the state of the world. And I was feeling angry.
00:03:23
Speaker
um having a lot of passion about it because the restrictions from COVID were lifting. And we had witnessed, at least in the US, ah COVID was the largest transfer of wealth in our history. um The bottom, like 40% of the wealth moved from the bottom 90% to the top 10%. And I was starting to write it as a crime novel. And I realized it was too close to home. Like it was too, it was emotionally for myself as a reader and as a writer, it was just, um it felt too visceral and I wanted to have a little bit of distance from it, a little bit of an emotional buffer. And then also on top of that, I wanted to try a new genre. and So it's kind of funny because sometimes people are like crime and fantasy are like complete opposite. I'm like, they're actually very similar because they're both social.
00:04:13
Speaker
All
From Crime Fiction to Fantasy
00:04:14
Speaker
writing is social commentary, but crime There's definitely a link between like crime fiction, which came from the Gothic, and fantasy, which is kind of like Gothic folklore. They have the same kind of tree trunk, if you will, even though they're different branches. Yeah.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, they they came from similar roots and they just kind of branched off in different directions. Okay. Yeah, I totally get that. And it's it's cool that this is your first fantasy, but I understand why you were like, this needs to be removed. This needs to be detached from what's currently happening in the world because it's otherwise it's going to be, this is basically going to be nonfiction. Yeah, it's a bit overwhelming. Yeah. And um also I kind of was like with fantasy and as with fantasy and sci-fi, you can do very interesting things with metaphors. So I wanted to do a visual metaphor for wealth disparity. And so that's why in my world, people's debt is tattooed on their bodies.
Dark Fantasy and Political Intrigue
00:05:14
Speaker
And then presumably updates magically when they pay it off or or gain more. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's great. I noticed also you, you described it as dark fantasy specifically.
00:05:27
Speaker
What, what, what, what are you kind of differentiating between not just calling it fantasy, you're calling it dark fantasy. Right. So I call it dark fantasy because it has It deals with a lot of mature themes. It also deals with, um there is some violence in there and there is um some dark ideas because it is a world in which like inheritance is very important. And because of that, so is ah reproductive ideas.
00:05:59
Speaker
health. So I wrote, it i started writing it um after Roe was overturned in the U S which was our federal, originally was our federal protection for abortion. um And that gave it back to the States to decide. So where you live in the U S depending on where you live in the U S um you have a different amount of rights um as a woman. And so What was the question again?
00:06:28
Speaker
oh dark fantasy. yeah so basically Yeah. So basically, I kind of label it a little bit as like a warning. um But also because my book has some...
00:06:41
Speaker
Because there's some steamy scenes, I understand it sometimes gets categorized as romanticy. And I love romanticy. I really do. But I just don't want readers going, romantic see readers going in expecting it to be um the romance is the front and center when really it's more a political intrigue novel that has some sex.
00:07:06
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I get Cause I was going to ask, i I saw that it's on the press release that I was sent and, and, uh, kind of looking online, it's always categorized as a romantic fantasy, which I've discussed with a few people in the industry recently of how we are categorizing specifically romantic fantasy as separate from romantic for the, for the reasons that you you just said.
00:07:29
Speaker
Oh, interesting. I didn't, um, I didn't under, I didn't know about that distinction. Okay. Yeah. think it's kind of funny because i know why people use the word romance, but like it is kind of funny because if you read the novel, at least in the first novel, this is different for this the sequel that I'm working on right now. But in the first novel, it's kind of like...
00:07:50
Speaker
um I don't want to seem like I am romanticizing some of the scenes that do happen because some of them are, you know, a lot of them deal with power struggles. A lot of the novel is is power dynamics. And so when it comes to the sex scenes, to the me, those would not happen in a vacuum. There would be some of those ah political, social, economic dynamics that are seeping over into those scenes. So it's not just like,
00:08:21
Speaker
And again, and I love romanticcy. I'm literally listening to one right now and I'm loving it. um But I just don't want readers to come in and and feel it's going to be one thing and then totally be like, wait, what what's happening?
00:08:35
Speaker
Where's the romance? Where's the love? And I'm like, oh, honey, I'm sorry. in this book, least not in the first book. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cause the, the definition, the, the kind of separation that I've heard is that like romanticy, the romance comes first. And then in romantic fantasy, the the kind of fantasy and the setting comes first.
00:08:55
Speaker
Yes. I think that's like such a good distinction. And I would say mine definitely is more in the, in the latter. Okay, good to know. Good to know. um
Isabel's Writing Journey
00:09:04
Speaker
So this is your debut novel, but I was reading a bit about you.
00:09:09
Speaker
You have studied creative writing for some time. You're quite qualified in that field. I saw that you have had short stories and essays published in various journals.
00:09:20
Speaker
You mentioned that this isn't the first novel that you'd written. The first fantasy novel that you'd written, crime, thrillers, I'd imagine, before this. How many novels had you written before The Debtor's Game?
00:09:32
Speaker
um That's such a good question. i had written... and So basically, um I had written about two and a half novels before the debtor's game. The first one I wrote in undergrad and it was crime. The second one I wrote in graduate school for my thesis, also crime. um And then when I was, you know, i I wrote those, I edited those, I pitched them to literary agents and I got a couple of bites, but I didn't get signed because they were not yet at the quality of or at the level sophistication needed to be published. I was also 21 and 24. So I look back on that because at the time I'm like, oh, when will i be successful? And I'm like, now at 29, I'm like, oh girl, I have so much to learn still. Like, I, you know what I mean? But anyway,
00:10:24
Speaker
i I was in my mid-20s when I was writing a third novel. It was another crime novel, and it was dealing with a lot of the themes that The Debtor's Game deals with. And I was about 150 pages in. And that was when I sort of had the realization, like, this is way too close to home. This is not enjoyable to write. um Like I said, it was like 2023,
00:10:44
Speaker
It felt like every day the news was really bad. And I was, I, I, it's ironic because I said earlier that ah my book is not necessarily escapism, but it does offer a little bit of that detachment ah that you might want. Like I wanted to write a novel that acknowledged how I was feeling about the current moment, but also that could allow me to, um,
00:11:10
Speaker
not feel like I'm living in the news as I'm reading it. So yes, I was on, I was about like 150 pages into my third novel when I realized this is not working. I need to do something else. So I decided to do the complete opposite in every regard.
00:11:26
Speaker
and And I wrote the debtor's game and i I said to myself, like, it'll be a creative challenge. Worst case scenario, I learned how to write in a different way because before I was writing,
00:11:37
Speaker
um third person, multiple POVs. I was outlining it down to the chapter and it just wasn't working. I wasn't getting signed and I didn't feel like I was learning. I felt like I was repeating the same thing over and over again. um And I was learning, but I needed ah i needed completely different um guidelines to follow, I think, to really allow my imagination and my skill to to grow. So yeah, 150 pages in and I was like, it's taken me a year and a half to write 150 pages. This means i probably am not obsessed with this novel because for me, that's not that much.
00:12:18
Speaker
And then when I started the debtors game and with fantasy, like I think I clocked in at 150 pages, like in the first couple months, like first month or so. So I was like, okay, this is definitely what I'm desiring.
00:12:32
Speaker
okay Okay. So um ah when you when you said you completely changed your style and you you, but with the previous novels, you'd like plotted them out and planned everything down to a tee Does that mean that you like didn't really plan the fantasy one? You just kind of started writing and and figured it out as you went, or you just planned it less?
00:12:50
Speaker
I know this is such a huge debate.
Balancing Structure and Imagination in Writing
00:12:54
Speaker
spiders Everyone's different. And I think that's okay because everyone's brain is different. And so your approach would be different. But basically what I used to do was I would literally plan it out down to the chapter. I'd be like, in this chapter, this happens. And I did the three POVs and all that.
00:13:10
Speaker
um And third person. And then when I went to go write fantasy, i was changing the genre and I was like, okay, let me change everything else too. I'm going to do first person, one POV. And then for the approach to planning it, what I did instead was I just wrote down the major plot points.
00:13:30
Speaker
And then I did allow myself to wander a bit more than I normally would have. And for me, that worked great. i I still need structure and I still need some sort of destination I'm writing towards, but I don't need everything filled in because i found that when I over outlined Then when I went to go write, it it felt like homework. um And so my motivation was like a little less. But then also i was having – there was inconsistencies in the manuscript because the characters you're – who the characters are when you are outlining is not who they are when you are writing them. um so You know, you could like watch videos of people riding a bike. You can read about riding a bike, but it's not the same until you're riding the bike. And so –
00:14:19
Speaker
um I struggled to have consistency in some of the characterization and also motivations. And I realized it was because i was trying to be loyal to an outline instead of being loyal to the draft.
00:14:35
Speaker
Okay, sure. That makes sense. It sounds like you've, it's funny because I speak to a lot of authors on this podcast about specifically like where you are on the spectrum of Planeta Pantsa. And a lot of people do, it sounds like a lot of people will end up where you are, but they usually are there from the other direction.
00:14:51
Speaker
It's so many authors start as Pantsas and then they eventually find themselves being like, oh, I do need a bit of structure. So they kind of move slightly towards the other way. It's it's great but like yeah it's rare that I find someone who's like super super plotted everything out and then they they kind of dial back on that and find themselves in a bit more like a freer space yeah it's really interesting because I think like I I mean when I was a kid I would just explore and I would write in that sort of exploratory is it pantser yeah Yeah, well, there's lots of words for it. there Yeah, yeah, yeah, because pants are implodder. Because pants are like you're flying by the seat your pants, right? Yes, exactly. Okay, okay. So i when I was younger, I was like more of a pantser because you're a kid and you I don't know. And then around high school was when I started to outline.
00:15:38
Speaker
um And I loved the process of outlining. And I think it was just because I loved brainstorming, but I thought it was because I love specifically outlining everything. But really, it's just fun to come up with ideas. um But structure is still, i will say, structure is so important in writing. i In telling a story, I should say, like structure so, so important. And the best structures are ones where you don't know that it's there. You know, you're just following the flow of the story. And that's like the beauty of writing. And that's one of the hardest parts about writing is how do I tell a story in a way that unfolds
00:16:16
Speaker
organically, but really everything is is kind of yeah yeah calculate calculated and meticulously determined. Like I will say it always brings me such satisfaction when I'll have a friend, if they read a certain scene, they'll text me be oh my God, and I felt this way. And in my head, I'm like, that's exactly how I wanted you to feel. I always feel like a bit Machiavellian, but but but it just means that it that part is effective.
00:16:45
Speaker
But yeah, so structure is really important. So when I went to go write this one, I had an idea of a general map. but I realized i needed to let my imagination breathe more.
00:16:56
Speaker
And that's what I was missing. ah Yeah. yeah That feeling you get when, when, when, you know, someone says, oh, I thought like I was shocked by this scene and you're like, yeah, that's what I was planning. Do you ever get it in reverse where someone's like, wow, I, I was like, I felt all these emotions in this scene and you're kind of like, oh, that's not what I was expecting. That's such an interesting ah way to have interpreted that that I didn't even think about.
00:17:21
Speaker
That's such a good question. I think it depends on who it's coming from. if it's coming If it's coming from my editor or like one of my first readers, like the people who read like very, very early drafts, and it's coming from an an editor or a first reader and they're like, I felt this.
00:17:38
Speaker
I'd be like, oh no, not. intentions are not. i my intentions are not being like the scene is not effective enough for what it's intended to be. um And it's not working. Something's not working there. Not that I want to control every single thing that everyone feels. Again, I'm not trying to be Machiavellian, but there are certain key scenes where if you want in general, the audience to feel betrayed or you want them to feel you know, like warm and fuzzy. And so if it's coming from those early readers, that's a problem. If it's coming from someone else, if it's coming from an actual reader, um then in my mind, I think it's kind of interesting to see the way that different people interpret or extrapolate ah different dynamics from
00:18:34
Speaker
the scenes that you write. And that's part of the reason why writing is so interesting and why reading is so interesting. I forget who said it, but someone famous, i don't know. Someone famous said, someone famous, maybe dead, said um the writer starts the story, the reader finishes it.
00:18:54
Speaker
um And so when I'm thinking about the way people feel during certain scenes, I think about that. Okay. Yeah. Cause I've always, I was, it's such a it's a weirdly collaborative thing.
00:19:06
Speaker
um Like as a reader, it's it's so true. Cause it's like, if I, if you or I described, you know, a
The Collaborative Nature of Writing
00:19:13
Speaker
scene and something that happened to to a bunch of different people, they would all be going off the same sort of instructions that we'd given them based on our descriptions, but they'd all be imagining something slightly different. You know, it's like with a film adaptation, if you've got, you know, who whoever the the director is and the cinematographer, they're always going to have a slightly different vision for how the words are interpreted. So yeah, I think that's so true that it is a collaborative ah medium between the reader and the writer.
00:19:40
Speaker
Absolutely. And that's why I think, um, A lot of great writing needs to leave room for the reader. And that is something that I try to think about when I'm doing one of my later edits. So when I've already kind of done the developmental edits and I've already, you know, gone through the big changes, when I'm i'm getting closer to the line level,
00:20:02
Speaker
You know, sometimes I have to remind myself, you know, leave room for the reader. You don't need to, it's kind of it's a little bit connected to the show don't tell because when you show something, it allows room for people to interpret it at will. I mean, they can kind of, you might ah offer them something hoping they'll they'll feel a certain way. um But yeah, that's, as you said, that's kind of the beauty of it is that it's it's a different story for everybody.
00:20:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's something, I guess it would be similar to the feeling when someone tells you like, Oh, I thought I felt this at a certain point in the book and you're like, perfect. I nailed it. It's like, you need to guide the person to that feeling, not tell them how to feel.
00:20:46
Speaker
You know what i mean? Absolutely. And that's why I feel like it is a success when I hear that, because if you're like, I mean, they might also have, you know, humans experience multiple emotions at once. And I'm not here to control all of that. But like, as you said, if I can kind of guide you to if you feel betrayed, or if you feel scared or frustrated, those are all kind of connected. So all any of those make sense during certain scenes. But if you're feeling something complete opposite of what's intended, that I've done something wrong.
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's kind of how I feel like when you are reading a story and it has the perfect twist. And I think the perfect twist usually comes just as the reader is about to put it together. you You're like so close to putting it all together and then you read the twist and and then it's like, it sort of feels like you solved it whilst it was also revealed at the same time. And you're like, of course, it's so obvious. It's so good. Yeah. And that's why crime is so hard to write.
00:21:46
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Crime is so hard to write. i mean, twists can happen in any story, but like specifically with crime. But I agree. And that is one of the things it's hard to write because you don't if you put so much evidence in your story um about a certain twist coming and the reader figures it out too soon, they'll be annoyed.
00:22:07
Speaker
And then if you don't put any or enough, not even a hint that that twist is coming, they'll also feel they'll feel mad because they'll feel cheated. want They want it to feel earned. You have to earn your twists. And that is sometimes hard to judge. Like, how much do put?
00:22:27
Speaker
How much do I, you know, leave the breadcrumbs and how much how many breadcrumbs do I leave or not leave? Yeah, exactly. And that's the, you know, that's the funniest thing when I talk to authors about planning and pantsing. And you know, what's so funny is I feel like almost every, I've had a lot of psychological thriller authors and domestic thriller authors on the podcast. And these, that's a genre that's so reliant on like often two very big twists will happen throughout those, those books.
00:22:54
Speaker
And it's so funny. It shocks me every time that they're basically all pantsers that almost all of them will say to me, I don't know who's going to die. I don't know who's going to be the killer. I just figure it out while I'm writing. And I'm just, i just can't believe that genre.
00:23:07
Speaker
I know. And you know, maybe that's why I did not succeed at it. Maybe I, I was thinking of it in that way, but it's really interesting that you say that because sometimes you feel that something is a shock to yourself, or as you said, you don't know that that person's going to die until they die, or like, you don't know that. And then when you go back and you read the work, it's almost as if your subconscious was telling you that. Sometimes it it truly comes out of nowhere in a first draft, and it's about massaging that ah to feel slightly more intentional. But other times...
00:23:39
Speaker
This is why I also love my editor. Like I love my I love both my editors, but um my US and my UK. But one of the reasons why I love them is because I always tell them you help me make the story feel more like itself.
00:23:54
Speaker
And the way that they do that is when I'm writing a first draft, I'll have all these ideas of things I want to include. And every once in a while, I just don't know how to include all the threads. Actually, this happens every time because I have so many.
00:24:07
Speaker
My issue is not necessarily like coming up with ideas. It's like I have so many ideas. I just don't know which ones are relevant um because sometimes they're relevant for other stories. And So sometimes I will, even though I'm not intending it, it i'm like trying to figure out how to get a certain thread in there, but I don't know how to do it. So I just leave it out. And then um I'll meet with my editors and they'll be like, it seems like you're trying to include this. or Or they'll be like, what if she did this? Because she's already doing this halfway. And I'm like, you're in my brain. But you leave traces of it without realizing sometimes.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i actually want to pick up a bit on the US-UK editor thing, because I think that's really interesting to working with the two different ones. But first, we are at the point of the episode where I must pause everything and ask you, Isabel, if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
00:25:07
Speaker
I love this question. i Anything by written by Toni Morrison, probably particularly beloved. Um, because the thing with Toni Morrison is, and even though it's really interesting, because I was thinking about how to answer this question, and I just kept going back to her.
00:25:26
Speaker
But I was like, well, she's not really thematically, you know, linked to a snowy cabin in the woods. And i'm like, but the reason why I would love to have her one of her novels with me, probably beloved is because every sentence she writes feels like a novel in and of itself. And you could just sit with her work and unpack every single word and Yeah, she's just, she was just such an incredible writer. So I would love to have one of her books with me because I feel like I could spend forever reading that book. Every time I read Beloved, I pick up on something new that I missed the previous time. It's so rich. And she also writes each sentence as if it's going to be her last sentence. uh you like read a sentence and you're like o you're like how could i possibly move on from this and then the next one will be like just as good and you'll be like yeah but uh she's just has such richness in her writing okay okay yeah so but if if you were to pick one of her books it would be beloved probably yeah beloved what about you
00:26:32
Speaker
What about
Isabel's Book Recommendation for Isolation
00:26:33
Speaker
me? I mean, people do often ask me this. To be honest, I haven't really thought about it since I, because it used to be Desert Island. That's what we, it used to be. And then I was like, we' we'd done like 250 episodes with Desert Island. And I'd heard a lot of it a lot of interesting stuff because people sometimes, would just they just take it as I'm isolated and stranded. What book do I want? But i there was a bit too many like how to build a raft and like how to survive on an island stuff. And I was like, yeah let's let's mix it up.
00:27:01
Speaker
So it's been great to get a different range of answers from putting people in a snowy cabin. But I hadn't actually thought too much about the cabin. my But my go-to answers is it's usually um Hitchhiker's Guides of the Galaxy or one of Terry Pratchett's, probably Small Gods. There's just something about those the two like very English writers with a sort of absurd, ah whimsical, nonsense, sci-fi and fantasy, but always always with a lot of heart to them, you know? Yeah, that's what I'm there for.
00:27:32
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. And I also love that you change it to a Snowy Cabin in the Woods, because then people are not focusing on survival as much. But they're like thinking like about, you know, um which book can I spend all my time with?
00:27:48
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Although what has what what has surprised me is that I've got, I wasn't expecting so many people to start bringing horror to the cabin. You know, it's so funny because when i when I first saw that question, I was like,
00:28:04
Speaker
huh I was like, maybe I should read. There's so many books that are set in a snowed-in cabin. yeah um Even like ah more recent ones, like or not recent as in contemporary, like Lucy Foley's ah Hunting Party. That's a snowed-in cabin in Scotland. um And I think it's it's so funny because I'm like...
00:28:26
Speaker
Wouldn't you be afraid? Like, I feel like I would be so afraid. And and it's it's really ironic because one time I was reading a novel and there was a character who was camping in the snow. And it was such a engrossing scene, even though there wasn't a lot happening. It was so...
00:28:46
Speaker
immersive the way that it was written, the details, I felt like I was there. And then when I like blinked, I was like, i like came back to reality and I was sitting in my bed and I thought to myself, I was like genuinely relieved.
00:28:59
Speaker
I was relieved that I was not stranded in a tent, you know, in the snow. But um yeah, it's so funny. So yeah, I, I, I stand, i still stand by my, my choice, beloved. Yeah, i think that's great. But yeah, it's just a funny contrast because almost there was definitely there was like one or two, but like people don't think when you say like ah Desert Island, people are thinking like sunny beaches and no one, no one really thinks to bring horror. They're like, they're just, it doesn't even, it doesn't seem like doesn't fit the the venue, right? Even if you're having a nice time, because some people interpret it as like, oh I'll just lie on the beach for a few days reading my book before I get rescued. And no one takes horror. everyone Everyone's taking a beach read. Yeah. so yeah it's been fun mixing it up um next up we are gonna pick up on the us uk editors bit and then and then i'd like to dive a bit into the sort of the publishing journey finding an agent signing the deal all that jazz that will all be available in the extended episode which you can find at patreon.com forward slash write and roll authors talk about feeling a little like lost or feeling a little bit um You know, because these people have to deal with so many authors in a year. And so, yes, of course, they're not going to like cater every tiny little thing to you and they're not thinking about you every day and that's fine. But now you have someone to help you like carry the story over the finish line.
00:30:25
Speaker
Yes,
Closing Remarks and Social Media
00:30:26
Speaker
exactly. um And speaking of finish lines, we are at the end of the episode. Thank you. Thank you so much, Isabel, for coming on the podcast and ah telling us all about your your debut novel, The Debtor's Game, which is out right now in all the usual places, as well as your kind of writing and publishing experiences and ah and your journey. It's been so cool chatting with you. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
00:30:49
Speaker
No, it's been, it's been my absolute pleasure. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Isabelle is doing, you can find her on, on Instagram and threads at Isabelle M. Writer on TikTok at IzzySync1. And to support this podcast, like, follow, and subscribe, join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
00:31:07
Speaker
Thanks again to Isabelle. and Thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.