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The Modern Age: Sonic Month
318 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Satsu and Adam take on the final hazard of the Sonic ages. Does this one hold up to it's 3D counterparts? Or does it force it's way through? Let's double boost this and find out together!
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. I'm Satsunami and Sonic
00:00:24
Speaker
forcing himself to play these games is my very good friend, Adam. Adam, are you still my friend? Hello, hello, good to be back, and Satsunami, you know I'm
Theme of Friendship in Sonic Games
00:00:34
Speaker
your friend. If playing these recent, this era of Sonic games taught me anything, it's not to undervalue the power of friendship, which will conquer all. Yeah, we just get a high five and we get a double boost our way through this. Yeah, double boost! Because something, something together we can do it, blah blah blah. 80% of our forces are dead.
00:00:58
Speaker
I feel like those kind of statistics aren't they Adam? Yes, it was a very tragic loss. It was our song as it were. But don't worry, it's all fine. It was all described in like white text and a black background so yeah. If you haven't caught up with the news just read that, you'll be fine. So yeah, this is the third episode of Sonic Month where we go into the modern age of Sonic.
Modern Sonic Games: Successes and Failures
00:01:21
Speaker
That's all I have to say about it. Thank you for listening. Yeah, this is a weird one. And honestly, going back to research for this one, I thought The Dark Age would be the one where we would have the most to talk about.
00:01:36
Speaker
Oh, this is a doozy. There's a lot of fascinating material here. In a way, it's not as clear cut as the Dark Age. You know, I feel there's a lot more nuance in this age about what went well, what didn't go well, you know, how what direction the series is going in. So it is a fascinating era, as you say.
00:01:53
Speaker
It's definitely, how do they put this in the most diplomatically possible? It's definitely a more family friendly era of Sonic. Definitely, definitely. They were certainly aiming tonally for a certain audience.
Shift from Sonic to Mature Games
00:02:08
Speaker
And of course, that was all kicked off with Sonic Colors, which came out in 2010. And it was for the Wii only. It was bright, it was colorful, you know, it was everything that I kind of said. That's it, I'm done with Sonic. I'm gonna be honest, like right off the bat before we go into the meat of this, I didn't play much of Sonic Colors. This is something I always say, I always go, objectively, the game's good, but story-wise, this just didn't grip me.
00:02:35
Speaker
Did you have a look into Sonic Colors when you were researching this era? Yeah, so I looked at some gameplay footage of it, listened to some reviews. I didn't play this one, but it seemed to me that this one kind of set the tone for what Sonic was going to be in this era in sort of three major ways. Were you sort of done with the series, but were you sort of getting a bit checked out with Sonic before Colors came out, or was Colors the straw that you were like, nah, I don't like quite what this is becoming?
00:03:05
Speaker
I think it wasn't so much about Sonic at the time, I think it was more because I was going through like my teenage years and things and I just wanted a kind of change in more quote-unquote mature games. Like I have said this before but
00:03:21
Speaker
I wanted to play more games like Call of Duty, Halo, you know I wanted to play games where I was like oh I'm a badass and all of this and you know it's like stupid looking back on it but that's kind
Sonic Colors: Gameplay vs. Narrative
00:03:32
Speaker
of how I felt. So when I saw things like Sonic Colours and you know just all of these games like even Sonic Unleashed I wasn't really into until much later and even then when I played it as I said in the last episode I was like eh.
00:03:44
Speaker
Again, like everyone else's opinion, the day stages were great, the Werehog Stages were an abomination, and it's like everyone was saying, oh it'd be good without the Werehog Stages, and my thoughts were just, if a game is good for 50% of it, that doesn't make a good game. That makes half a bad game, and I know that's very much a glass half empty.
00:04:04
Speaker
see mindset, but I think by that time I was just like, maybe I should try different things. It's not you Sonic, it's me. We need to see other franchises. So I kind of shopped around and I saw Sonic Colours came out, I saw advertised, but it just wasn't enough to pull me back in. It's not one of those games that I would say, oh I
00:04:25
Speaker
I was rushing back and from what I saw of it, from what I know of the story and the shift of writing, we will get into that in the episode but the writing takes a significant nosedive in this era. But I feel as if in that respect the actual gameplay got a bit better. Would you agree with that assessment?
00:04:43
Speaker
I think that's definitely, if narrative and gameplay are two sides of the same coin, it definitely felt like Sonic Team was focusing more on the gameplay side of the coin than they were the narrative.
Narrative Shifts in Sonic Franchise
00:04:54
Speaker
It seems they had a direction they wanted to go in narratively, and they didn't really seem to try to deviate from that much in this era. I almost felt as if they were too scared to branch out.
00:05:06
Speaker
I say that, comparing to the Dark era of Sonic, I'd say that, but we've got games in this era that, you know, we've got Lost World, Sonic Boom, whatever the spin-off games were for Sonic at the Olympics, those kinds of things. It was a weird, janky era, which technically is still going on to this day, because as of this episode, Sonic
00:05:28
Speaker
Frontiers, which is a new game, hasn't come out yet, but it is actually, did you know this? It is being written by Ian Flynn, who is the writer of the current Sonic comics. Oh really, I didn't know that! But before that, the writers, I wanna say for most of these games, the writers responsible are two guys called
00:05:48
Speaker
Ken Pontak and Warren Graff, who they certainly bring a certain tone to the series, if that makes sense. It's nothing like the Dark Ages, you know, we're not getting any moral quandaries, we're not getting any gotta go fast, but we are getting a lot of nostalgia bait, we're getting a lot of quips, like marvel-y quips, like would you say, say compared to what we talked about in the last two episodes, how would you say this compares?
00:06:16
Speaker
certainly, it seems to me they really tried to lean into the humour. Just from some of the games that I played in this year and also from some of the material and gameplay I saw from the other games I didn't play, it really felt like they wanted a real comedic slant to these games and a very kind of, in a very particular kind of comedic slant, it does feel like it's very much aimed at a younger audience. Just judging from, maybe it's just comedy,
00:06:42
Speaker
obviously is very subjective so maybe it was just stuff that didn't really appeal to me but some of the stuff I was told I was like oh I feel like I might like this if I was a child.
Sonic's Comedic Approach and Tone
00:06:49
Speaker
I mean as I said before there's no grittiness, there's no like guns, there's no and again I'm not saying this is a slant like there should be more guns or more aginess to this series but you know what I've kind of beaten around the bush quite a bit or around the Green Hills bush as it were because trust me we're going to be talking about Green Hills a hell of a lot in this episode but
00:07:11
Speaker
Will we just jump into it? Let's get going. Without any further ado, hold on to your hats, prepare for the mania and we will be right back just after these messages. Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that talks about topics from gaming and films to streaming in general interest. Previously on Chatsunami, we discussed Game of the Decade, Deadly Premonition, the romantic thriller, bardemic and listen to us get all sappy as we discuss our top five Christmas films.
00:07:38
Speaker
If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can find us on Anchor, Spotify, YouTube and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:07:51
Speaker
We are Beer and Chill Podcast. Podcast where we review TV shows, games, movies and whatever else takes our fancy. So what are you waiting for? If you're a cool kid like us, you're gonna listen to the Beer and Chill Podcast. You can get it anywhere from Spotify all the way to your grandma's radio. My name is Jan. And I'm Craig Yisi. And we are Beer and Chill.
Sonic's Rough Mid-2000s Period
00:08:26
Speaker
So the year was 2010 and Sonic at Safe Disables going through a bit of a rough patch. We had like several years of what were considered as critical failures. We had Shadow the Hedgehog in 2005, we had Sonic 06, the less said about that the better. In 2007 and 9 we had the Storybook series for the Wii which weren't received very well. We had Sonic Unleashed, we had the Rider series which were kind of
00:08:53
Speaker
look warm. It was safe to say that things weren't looking great for the series, but even out of that dark age we had a kind of glimmer of hope, that of course being the daytime stages in Sonic Unleashed. So what I think personally, because obviously I don't work for Sega, I've got no affiliation with Sega, but you know,
00:09:13
Speaker
I'm sure they're lovely people but what I think is that Sega probably saw how receptive people were to the boost formula and to this day they never let
Boost Formula and Sonic Colors
00:09:22
Speaker
it go. How did you feel about that Adam? I can see why they've clung on, they have a kind of death grip on it almost because it certainly felt, especially from the Dark Age, there was so much that people were kind of railing against, you know, both fans of the series and both people outside were sort of, you know, mocking these games and
00:09:39
Speaker
and kind of up in arms about a lot of it. So I can kind of, I guess I can see the mindset that when there was something that people actually liked, you know, Sega and Sonic Team probably weren't right. We're keeping this because this is, you know, one of the few quote unquote bright spots. So we'll stick with this and we'll kind of build. It seems like they then tried to build their games around that, tried to build it more around the mechanics, you know, rather than maybe going for like trying to build it around the narrative or the world or the characters. You know, it was much more a much more gameplay first approach.
00:10:07
Speaker
Business-wise, it definitely seems like the way to go. If a game's not fun to play, then it becomes less of a game and it becomes more like a chore, doesn't it? Yeah, like a glorified, I guess, not to criticise this kind of genre, but you get the visual novel style where it's more limited interactivity. So what you're saying is the Doki Doki Sonic Club
00:10:30
Speaker
No, I know exactly what you mean. It's like, throughout the Dark Age and even in the Adventure era, they had a heavy emphasis on narrative and plot-driven elements, and then 2010 hit, and of course we got Sonic Colors, which features Sonic in this very colorful amusement park in space, and he has to rescue these aliens called Wisps. Try saying that three times. He has like all of these, you know, superpowers, they can like
00:10:58
Speaker
turned into a rocket, you can drill underground, you can do this or that. As I said, I didn't play much of it and I was tempted to buy the... I think it was... was it last year or this year? I think it was this year. There was like maybe any...
Sonic Generations: Nostalgia and Critique
00:11:12
Speaker
you might maybe it was started actually i can't remember now yeah it was recently anyway as of recording this but there was the remake of it and i was tempted to go out buy it and play it but i felt as if you know that wouldn't be true to the spirit of the original because there's like a lot of bugs with sonic ultimate compared to sonic colors the regular version for the wee and knuckles but yeah that joke's never going away just put a tally next to your your your notebooks
00:11:42
Speaker
Pretty much live and learn, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, it just seemed totally different compared to what we got before. You know, in the Dark Age we got all these kind of gritty and, oh, what we gonna do? We gonna become better people? We gonna fight for, you know, justice and an unjust world? It's like, nah, we're gonna mess around in an amusement park.
00:12:00
Speaker
and it's like, I can see what they were going for. It's the safe option to try and boost Sonic, no pun intended, but boost Sonic back into the limelight with a fun, very, very safe game. Definitely. This, in a way, this is probably a bit too hyperbolic, but Sonic Colors feels almost like the anti-dark age.
00:12:22
Speaker
in a way like kind of more polar opposite to games like Shadow and 06. Even unleashed to an extent in narrative terms in that it seems with colours from what I've seen there was like kind of three things they were trying to go for. Number ones we've said they were really were trying to go for a really comedic slant you know to the writing and to the characters and to the story in general.
00:12:42
Speaker
Secondly, they looked like they were really trying to simplify the gameplay in the Dark Age games. They'd been attempting to have a lot of variety, whether it was heroes with the party aspect to the gameplay. Obviously, they did not include the adventure games in the Dark Age, but the adventure games had different characters with different styles of play. 06 also had the free different characters, and then Shadow mixed things up a bit as well. So it felt, and then obviously there was the Werehong as well.
00:13:06
Speaker
It looks like they were trying to get much more back to a simple gameplay by just focusing on classic Sonic speed and a bit of platforming rather than any other elements to it. Finally as well, it looked like they were determined to really cut down on the Sonic universe. As far as I understand, this game basically just has Sonic and Tails in it.
00:13:37
Speaker
You've been beaten 100% right, because in the same year, Sonic
00:13:44
Speaker
4 came out which was supposed to be a return to forum and this seems to be an age of Sonic where they had a heavy emphasis on nostalgia maybe it is detriment and I will get into that but they brought out Sonic 4 and that was actually one of the marketing strategies when they were saying who's going to be in the next Sonic game talking about Sonic 4 and they had like a
00:14:05
Speaker
huge list of people like Mr Needlemouse which I know funny joke they had Mr Needlemouse they had Amy, Vector, Charmy even, Shadow and then they crossed the names of one by one up until the release of the game and it's like oh no it's just a game of Sonic look
00:14:22
Speaker
This is what you want, right? And it just seems like a complete 180. Because as you said, they built up this lore, this kind of universe and things. And then, towards the 2010s, they completely abandoned all of them. Because as far as I remember, bar some things in Sonic Forces, and maybe by extension Sonic Mania,
00:14:44
Speaker
I don't think there was many side characters actually getting the limelight in these games. Yeah, I mean, I think Tails is really the only one who appears maybe consistently, but even then, it wasn't really as a playable character. Tails was just kind of there in the more classic sidekick role. No, absolutely, because it's the same for colours, generations, lost worlds as well, boom.
00:15:07
Speaker
but we'll get to them, don't you worry. And even in Sonic Forces, although in Sonic Forces there is an ensemble, it doesn't feel as if they're really doing anything. You don't get to play as any of them, is there? No, you don't, at all.
00:15:22
Speaker
yeah like kind of briefly for like five minutes but that's about it it just seems weird you know it seems weird to have this kind of universe and not like expand on it you know it felt like a kind of reaction against that Dark Age you know where they where they tried to bring more of the expanded universe in and give more meaningful roles to a lot of the characters and this kind of felt like Sonic Team and Sega's response to
00:15:47
Speaker
you know, criticisms of that from some people. It was just to like completely strip it back and just get it right back down to basically Sonic again. Because I think that was the criticisms of the time. They were saying there were far too many characters getting introduced. There were far too many gimmicks and elements. So I think that was kind of a two-prong approach for this era. You know, for Sonic Colors they just had the boost formula with the wisps and everything. And for Sonic 4, that dealt with kind of a lot of the 2D stuff.
00:16:16
Speaker
which I will get into, don't you worry. Sonic 4 wasn't really, it wasn't received by all, I have to say, so thank god Sonic Colors came out at the same time, because I don't think the series would have survived if they just had Sonic 4 come out, because they had Sonic 4 and they had episodes planned.
00:16:32
Speaker
So it was like they had Sonic 4, then later on they had Sonic 4 Episode 2, which featured Tails, and then there was a third one planned, but they never got around
Nintendo Influence and Sonic's Tone
00:16:43
Speaker
to it. Long story short, they just never done it. But of course, one year later from that, because I think this is when people started to get back into Sonic, and of course that's when we got Generations, but I'm gonna be honest, I really do not like it. Maybe this is just a mould and I'm not the target demographic,
00:16:59
Speaker
but I really do not like the way Sonic is written in these games. Like say before we move on to Generations, did you feel that when you were researching about Sonic Colours that Sonic had somehow changed? Definitely. It definitely seemed like the stories got far more simple and they weren't trying to, not to say grappling, because it's not like the Dark Age games were grappling with, you know, serious moral issues, but they did kind of, they were referenced, you know, they were brought up, you know, at points, but that seemed to be completely gone.
00:17:27
Speaker
by this era and it was much more, it seemed, it seemed like with this era, and I'm sure we'll get into this more, but it seemed like this era was trying to appeal to kind of the original fans of Sonic, you know those people who had become fans in the Genesis era where obviously because of you know hardware limitations the stories and the stories in that era of games were very simple because they had to be.
00:17:48
Speaker
And it almost felt like it was kind of reaching back, this era of Sonic and just reaching back to that. So the more kind of complex and detailed stories of the kind of the, you know, the early to mid 3D era of Sonic.
00:18:01
Speaker
Maybe this is a controversial take, considering Sonic Colors is a lot of people's favorite Sonic game, but I think the Nintendo fight Sonic in this era. Maybe I'm being controversial in that, you know, there's a Sonic fan like Slamidi's Fist going, you've gone too far! But it feels as if Sonic Colors only came out for the Wii, and later on we would see Sega and Nintendo basically in the same bed together, creating deals where
00:18:29
Speaker
I think it was around like 2012 to 2014. They had like a three game deal with Nintendo where they brought out, I think it was like Mario and Sonic at the Olympics, which fair enough, spin-off. They brought out Sonic Lost World, which is completely different. And they also brought out Sonic Boom, which
00:18:49
Speaker
they actually didn't tell the developers of Sonic Boom that they had this like three game deal. So the developers had to like scramble and try to make this game compatible with less powerful hardware, you know. I mean this was the age where, you know, the Xbox One, the PlayStation 4, they were coming out and they had to work with the Wii U.
00:19:10
Speaker
it's like it's just it's just crazy so i think with sonic colors like and i'm gonna get the little one out the room here but the fact that sonic is just you know he'll run around calling egg man baldy mcnose hair and things like that did you ever see those cut scenes i i did indeed
00:19:27
Speaker
I did indeed. I saw the Baldy-McNose hair one. I saw the one as well where Eggman's like, nobody's gonna stop me and Sonic's like, hey, who are you calling? Nobody. Eggman's robots could proceed to explain that joke in case you couldn't get it. Yeah, because we're all babies.
Modern Sonic Mechanics and Storytelling
00:19:44
Speaker
that don't get the joke is like, and again, I get it, this is a game series for kids but would you say, see for like even the retro and dark age combined, would you say they were more universal compared to like the modern era in terms of the storytelling
00:20:00
Speaker
Definitely, I mean it's funny you saying that Sonic is a game for kids because I'm not sure I would necessarily agree with that because I think as you kind of were saying there at the end like I think this was a game series especially in the kind of early 3D that was trying to appeal to a kind of universal but even the Genesis games but with their simplicity was able to appeal to a kind of broader audience than just kids and it feels like it feels like I would still say Sonic isn't necessarily a kids game and I think there is there are still elements in these games to appeal to you know older audiences
00:20:30
Speaker
But it definitely feels like story-wise that we're really aiming for that younger demographic in a way that, like, you know, a lot of Nintendo games, you know, we consider them to be kind of kids games, but in a way, they're not even kind of things like the Mario games for their, you know, for their kind of simple stories and everything. They still appeal to like a wide audience because mechanically, you know, they can still be quite complex and you can get a lot out of them by, you know, putting time into them and understanding the mechanics and mastering them. And that's why people still love kind of the Mario series. I think Sonic had that.
00:20:59
Speaker
It did still have that for a bit, but it definitely, with the story-wise, seemed to be aiming at that, which is a shame, because it does then kind of mean it looks like it's almost pigeonholing itself. Again, going back to what I was saying before, it does feel as if Sonic was Nintendo-fying itself, and what I mean by that is, it was becoming very much of a sameness, you know? We were relying on the boost formula, we were relying on this very simplistic sense of humour.
00:21:28
Speaker
And it can be argued that maybe Sonic Unleashed was like the precursor for this, because you know you had a lot of recording characters like Orbot, I think his name is, which by the way, Orbot Cubot do not like them, do not appreciate them. You know, the two robots that follow him around and explain everything and it's supposed to be, haha, random LOL humour, and you're like, I do not appreciate this as an adult.
00:21:52
Speaker
and again you're completely right it was one of these like game series that everybody could play at the same time but now it feels like it don't get me wrong obviously that's like marketing 101 when i get like a specific target demographic but for sonic colors i like being a teenager at the time like maybe going on early adulthood it just didn't appeal to me i thought i'd rather be playing cod or halo and that would come back to bite me in the backside years later but
00:22:19
Speaker
You know, then we got Generations, of course, in 2011, which I have to admit, I love Generations purely for the utter fan service, the pandering and everything. But my God, the story is awful. But before I go into that, you played Sonic Generations quite a bit, didn't you, Adam? Yeah, I didn't quite finish it, but I basically got to the end of it.
00:22:42
Speaker
pretty much. Just a couple of boss fights left to do. But yeah, so I really like this game. I think this is probably, again, I didn't finish it, so maybe if I finished it my opinion would change, but it's probably my favorite of the Sonic games I've played so far. I just found it such a joy to play. I didn't run into any kind of the mechanical issues that I ran into with the
00:23:02
Speaker
some of the Dark Age games but I felt it was a more refined gameplay than some of the Genesis era of ones and I liked the fact that you had the split between 2D and 3D Sonic and it was nice to go back through these older levels, some of which I played before, some of which I hadn't but I knew my reputation and I thought the levels were designed so well and it was so much fun and it was a perfect blend of level design and mechanics to create this wonderful
00:23:47
Speaker
experience. I had one
00:23:57
Speaker
engage with it but that's just a kind of that that's a relatively minor nitpick in fairness. I see what you're saying about the story and I don't really know where I fall with the kind of sonic stories you know both in the dark age and in this era. I kind of like the generation story, I kind of like the simplicity of it, I kind of like that it was this sort of fanservicey nostalgia one which this was this for the 20th anniversary my rhymes ain't.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah, it would have been the 20th anniversary. It felt fitting for that. I liked it. I can see why perhaps you didn't or other people might not have liked it, but I really enjoyed the game overall. I had so much fun playing it. I have to admit, I was in the same boat of... I loved the remixed levels for both
00:24:45
Speaker
2D Sonic and 3D Sonic. I loved being able to go through the Adventure era ones and even the Sonic Heroes ones. I thought that was amazing. Being able to go through City Escape again. It was just amazing being able to play through these stages that you've grown up with.
00:25:05
Speaker
you know, whether it's Green Hill Zone, whether it's, as I said, City Escape. I think when it started to lose me is when it started going through sonic colours to like, sonic unleashed and things like that. I was kind of like, yeah, this is
Sonic Generations: Gameplay vs. Narrative
00:25:19
Speaker
a mad jam. Because, you know, I was bobbing my head when it was like, Speed Highway, where, you know, you're racing through Sonic and you're listening to like, the up and down and all around song.
00:25:28
Speaker
this is great but then when i got to the sonic colour stage i could not finish that fast enough i was just like i have zero attachment to this part of the franchise and i just wanted the game over at that point yeah the story doesn't get any better this is like the kind of conflict i have because on the one hand
00:25:45
Speaker
This is a celebration of Sonic C, level design wise and gameplay wise. It does a fantastic job. And even to this day, you still get modders and things like that creating content for this game. You've got the realistic hedgehog mod, which is literally not even a cartoon, a real life hedgehog running in the place of Sonic. You've got mods where it's like in first person.
00:26:08
Speaker
you've got you know levels that have been imported from other games. It is like a really well revered game and I absolutely love it for that. The story I will give it a pass on but I just didn't like it. I didn't like the final battle either I will admit but I just didn't appreciate the fact it felt kind of kid friendly but I thought okay maybe this is just you know like a one-off
00:26:32
Speaker
thing because it's like you know it's Sonic it's the anniversary they don't want to pull a Sonic 06 again you know like they did five years previously and you know they didn't want to to put a nicely put the bed on this one you know Sonic Generations everybody loved it and then all of a sudden we got the quote-unquote dark age once again with Sonic Lost World and Sonic Boom. Do you have any final comments before I start ranting about these games?
00:26:58
Speaker
I think this is a final comment about Generations. I thought it was really nice that Generations was actually a celebration of all of the major games up to that point. And I like the fact that they did. I can understand not having as much attachment to things like Unleashed and Colors.
00:27:14
Speaker
But I did appreciate that they did reference those games, they did actually incorporate them into the celebration in a way that, because especially now with the fact that, as I was saying in the last episode, say you've delisted things like 06 and Heroes, so you can't
00:27:29
Speaker
play them on modern hardware, which is a shame. It was nice to see at that point that they were still embracing them, because there were people who do like these games, you know, people who obviously grew up, you know, maybe their first Sonic games were like 06 and colors and things like that. So it's nice that they were also brought in. It doesn't feel like now where it kind of feels like if you like that area, you're kind of not part of, you know, you're kind of on the fringe. Sega was kind of holding you at arm's length. You can stand outside the party, but you're not allowed in. So it was nice, you know, at that point, at least they were bringing everybody in and just celebrating all the games.
00:27:59
Speaker
for that scene that I mean, girls, where it was like, you can't sit with us!
00:28:04
Speaker
The sonic, oh my god, the sonic cafeteria. I'm just imagining now. Oh my god. 406 walking in. Just getting pelted with rotten tomatoes, just like, you can't sit with us, get out of here! Sonic and Knuckles tripping them up and everything. They would be the jocks of that school, wouldn't they? The Genesis ones definitely would be the jocks. Yeah, with the leather jackets and everything, be like, eh. Or a leather, letterman even. But you know what I mean.
00:28:31
Speaker
that's something i do appreciate as well the fact that Generations was a celebration of the franchise for once it wasn't trying to be ashamed of certain aspects like you know it still had Unleashed it still had the Adventure series it still had Heroes it had even O6 which i was really surprised that yeah they still put it in and i think that is a nice touch you know they didn't just say oh it never happened let's say ignore it they still put it in and you know what like a thumbs up
00:28:59
Speaker
I didn't like the ending, I have to say. I felt the ending was again very kid friendly, and basically it's something that kind of reoccurs. And I think it's actually the last game we get to see Sonic as Super Sonic in the
Supersonic and Sonic's Power Dynamics
00:29:14
Speaker
narrative. Oh wow, really? Yep. Because technically in Sonic Forces you can unlock Super Sonic, but spoilers for anyone keeping count.
00:29:22
Speaker
As far as I know he doesn't appear in Lost World as Super Sonic, he doesn't appear as Super Sonic in colours, he doesn't appear as Super Sonic in Boom and Mania obviously have to collect the 7K loss emerald so he doesn't really appear. I mean technically I wouldn't say I'd gotten that far into Mania so maybe there's like extra content but say for the most part for these 3D games they seem to really be distancing themselves from Super Sonic and I don't quite know why.
00:29:50
Speaker
Yeah, because supersonic is something that's been around since at least Sonic 2, am I right in saying that? Yeah. At first I was like, well, maybe it's like a 3D, maybe it's like one of these, you know, Dark Age 3D concepts, but I was like, no, it's earlier than that. So it does seem weird that that bit seems to have kind of been stowed away and not being used.
00:30:09
Speaker
because his cheeses was, because technically I think they had supersonic in two and for three I think they had supersonic again but then they had to up the stakes when they put the Ann Knuckles segment in so they created a thing called hypersonic which was just like a white sonic with you know the spiked up quills and like the flashing like multi-coloured lights and things you know it'd be like a PR nightmare nowadays but back then it was a different tidy madame you know nobody cared about it
00:30:37
Speaker
Nobody cares about those warnings, you know? But yeah, you're right. Throughout the Dark Age, that seemed to be like the highlight. Whether you were playing Sonic Adventure all the way up until Sonic Unleashed, you always built up to that super form. Even with the storybook CD, they did it as well. For Secret Ring, she had Dark Spine Sonic. For Black Knight, you had
00:30:57
Speaker
I don't even know what you call that form. It's like Sonic in Golden Armor and things, so that was like his version of the Superform. And although we haven't really talked about those kind of games much, but for what they were, they were really creative. Mechanically again, they weren't as great, but once it got to like Sonic Colours, they really distanced themselves from that. And I know technically there's parallels between Super Sonic and the Super Saiyan form in Dragon Ball Z. I think that's partially where that kind of came from.
Sonic Lost World: Mechanics and Story
00:31:25
Speaker
Going back to what was saying about the fact that they seem to be Nintendo-fying the series, it just seemed to come to a head with Sonic Lost World, where they completely changed up the mechanics. You know how in a Sonic game you push forward? What do you think happens, Adam? I'm led to believe that you'll go straight ahead and speed up. Yeah, you'll speed up. In Sonic Lost World, you actually have to press a separate button to go fast, to actually run.
00:31:54
Speaker
Well there's innovation for you. Yep. And this is the thing though because I've been harping on throughout the last couple episodes saying oh Sonic was so you know innovative and they ended up having all these like amazing new games with like different mechanics and this is exactly what they've done with Lost World so you might be thinking Satsu you hypocrite why don't you like this game? I don't like the story. I think the story is the most barebones cookie cutter garbage that I think I've ever seen in my life. You get a group of
00:32:24
Speaker
Power Rangers, not golf, so they're called the Deadly Six, and they are basically all stereotypes. You've got the red demonic leader, you've got Kung Fu Master. I kid you not, by the way, you might be thinking, no, he's stereotyping. Look up the Deadly Six, you've got one that's literally just a girdle that paints on nails, you've got one who's like the crazy rebel, you've got the emo one, and you've got the fat one which
00:32:47
Speaker
I kid you not, Eggman promises him a sandwich if he defeats Sonic and I'm just like, remember in Sonic Adventure 2 when a giant space lizard tried to crash like a space colony into the earth? Remember in Shadow the Hedgehog when they had to fight aliens? These creatures, they're called the Zeti by the way, in case anyone's like, well actually they're the Zeti, it's like I know that the Zeti
00:33:12
Speaker
and quite frankly, I am sick of Sega trying to shove them into everything. Even in the comics, by the way, I read kind of the latest batch of the comics, the Metal Virus saga, which by the way, absolutely way better than it should be for a comic series, by the way. I was just like, my god, this is how you should write a sonic game, which makes me think that Ian Flynn is going to be fantastic for the next game. But I remember reading that and even they're introduced into the story and you're like, no, no!
00:33:40
Speaker
Oh no, I don't want to see this
Sonic Boom: Redesigns and Reception
00:33:43
Speaker
80. I don't care about Zavok. I don't care. And this is the thing. To see this kind of Sonic Colours based writing, it does not mesh well at all with serious aspects. Like, say what you love about Shadow, but at least it was consistent in how bad you know what it was. At least it was consistent with how crazy it was. Same with 06. At least 06 kind of kept a kind of samey.
00:34:07
Speaker
cookie-errant tone, even though it had its wacky bits, whereas Lost World is a scene where Tails gets captured, and Sonic replies by saying those sneaky, greedy little, and then Eggman has this really serious speech that doesn't mesh well, he's like, Tails sacrificed himself for the greater good. Let us pay, oh mate, normally we can't even say the last bit, but
00:34:32
Speaker
He didn't have, like, a presidential picture of Tails on his... I just... I just got what you were doing there. Bravo. Thank you. But he does. He has a speech with, like, Tails sacrificing himself for the greater good. And I know that's not what Eggman sounds like, but bear with me.
00:34:47
Speaker
Do you know what I miss? Like, say playing Sonic Lost World. Okay, I'm gonna admit, I had a little bit of fun with some of it but nah, this game is not for me. Again, if you enjoy Sonic Lost World, fair enough. Completely your choice and everything. I just didn't like it. I honestly just thought
00:35:04
Speaker
I don't like the lock-on mechanics. I don't like the fact that I slapped against a ball. There was actually max speed sections at one point. Obviously not as egregious as 06, but there was definitely a pseudo-max speed section in there and I was like, what the hell is this game? How did this get a free pass on some of the others? Anyway, that's neither here nor there, but I just didn't like it. And you've got those serious moments mixed in with cartoony. I thought you were dead. Nope.
00:35:31
Speaker
And you're like, okay. And then of course it came to a head in 2014 when, as we said, Sonic Boom came out. I'm going to be honest, I haven't played Sonic Boom. I did a lot of extensive research before and I know that there's, you know, the TV series Sonic Boom. Have you watched any of it?
00:35:47
Speaker
No, I've just seen little clips of it. Yeah, it seems a lot more like a self-aware sitcom. Yeah. It doesn't seem like it's... I mean, it's a show for kids. Well, not for kids, but you know, it's just like a regular cartoon. And for what it is, from what I remember watching, most of it's alright. It's nothing special, you know? It's nothing like, ooh, can't wait for Sonic Boom. Same with Sonic X, but I think that's an episode for another day, I don't know.
00:36:12
Speaker
Yeah, Sonic Boom came out with radically redesigned characters. They had the athletic tape around them, they had Knuckles as like a muscle guy instead of being stoic and in your words, a stoic badass. Amy was a bit more developed I have to say, which was good to see, and Tails was just regular Tails. But before I go on another rant, what do you know about the Sonic Boom part of the franchise?
00:36:39
Speaker
Again, I've not played any of this. I watched a bit of gameplay and some reviews. So again, from what I understand, they were going for a kind of party mechanic type thing. Am I right in the thing? And that it was one of the things that was designed for kind of co-op play with your four kind of four lead characters. And it seemed a lot more kind of classic platformy, a bit like from what I understand Lost World is like as well. It seems to lean far more into the kind of platform, kind of classic platforming side of it.
00:37:06
Speaker
It was interesting you saying earlier on about the Sonic series kind of Nintendo-fying itself. This was for Lost World, but I saw a quote from Lost World, one of the lead designers saying that they were deliberately trying to target Mario fans and get them into the franchise. So, almost Lost World almost feels like a game that's more for newcomers than perhaps for kind of established fans.
00:37:25
Speaker
I don't know if that was the same with, if they had the same kind of philosophy with Boom, but it seemed more kind of akin to other sort of platformers. I was thinking of things like, you know, Jak and Daxter, like Ratchet and Clank. It seems more that kind of platform combat type gameplay rather than the kind of classic, more speed based gameplay that Sonic is associated with. So it did look quite strange in it. It didn't look like something that I wanted to play. I have to be honest. Yeah, it's definitely a lot more slow.
00:37:53
Speaker
the mote we got for the other ones afterwards. You're completely right, it's like that kind of slow-paced Jack and Daxter kind of gameplay. Minus the guns, ironically enough. But it does feel as if they were trying to appeal to the Mario fanbase, especially if they buy Nintendo consoles.
Modern Sonic Aesthetic Critique
00:38:12
Speaker
and they've got those kind of games featured on there then it would make sense to copy Mario, which kind of shows you how far Sonic has fallen. Again, like in the 90s, Sonic used to be the Auntie Mario and kind of in this period of Sonic he became, I don't want to say a Mario clone because that's not fair, but definitely became very similar to Mario.
00:38:32
Speaker
this period. Definitely tried to borrow from those games. Well I mean if I have to see one more level that makes no sense, like I get it. Sonic is a cartoony platformer but in Lost World there's literally one scene where it's like oh you go to this part of the Lost Hex which apparently is just this random world that's chilling above whatever world Sonic comes from. You know they never explain it because copyright
00:38:55
Speaker
you know it's like oh it's the Lost Hex, it's like Great Tales, what the hell is a Lost Hex? You go to like this level where it's like giant donuts that are just floating in the air randomly and they did this with sonic colours as well but like I hate that aesthetic, I hate it so much because it's not... and this will kind of sound weird me saying oh it's not believable because you know it's a sonic game but like why? Well why are there donuts?
00:39:18
Speaker
just flying in the air. Why is it like, oh look, it's Candy Land? It's like, what is this? It's like, have a word with yourself. Stop making these games when you're hungry. Like genuinely, I feel like someone's programming these games when they're hungry and they're like, maybe it's like the programmer that got let out of his cage, you know, and it's like, what level are we going to program today? And he says, please, I'm very hungry. And he goes, ah, of course, a candy level. Back in the cage you go. And it's like, I just don't get it. You know, Sonic,
00:39:45
Speaker
levels used to be that they were vibrant. Sure, they were like kind of over the top. There was a lot of wacky things that obviously didn't make sense, you know. This is like the whole Pokémon makes no sense because it's 10-year-olds with massive world-ending monsters or, oh, Mario eats mushrooms. Ha ha, funny joke here. And, you know, obviously with Sonic O, they wouldn't have giant loops and it wouldn't make sense to go around in a city. But like, when did it go wrong?
00:40:10
Speaker
that we had candy-filled levels like this. I hate the aesthetic. I absolutely hate it so much. Unfortunately, they didn't carry that over to Sonic Forces, but we just force ourselves and go into Sonic Forces and Mania. We might as well. Unless you've got any more files for Lost Wilder.
00:40:28
Speaker
Well, Lost World turns out has a mechanic where if you jump then it locks on to enemies and then you can kind of continuously. So you can't do a normal homing attack like you used to. The only issue with this is apparently there's another homing attack you can do when you do a kick. So if you jump and press like Y instead of X. I didn't know that, so every time I was coming across like these badniks that
00:40:52
Speaker
try to slam into them. I got stuck on their backs and I just blew up and kept dying and I'm like, how am I supposed to get by them? So I thought, okay, I'll spin dash through them and would you know the spin dash doesn't work? And I'm like, how the hell are you supposed to do that? If you can't even spin dash through certain enemies, then what's the point of having the spin dash?
00:41:11
Speaker
I don't like this game, I'm gonna be honest. People who enjoy this game, you do you perfectly fine to enjoy this with the gameplay and things, but if you're gonna sit here and tell me that this story is any better than any of the other previous games, have a word with yourself.
00:41:28
Speaker
I'll accept that the gameplay can be fun at times, but don't sit here and tell me that the story is any good, it's not. And this is coming from someone who grew up playing Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic and the Secret Rings. No!
00:41:42
Speaker
Anyway, that's my rant over, what's going to Sonic Forces? Seeing as this was the last game that you played Adam, do you want to take on Sonic Forces? Oh sure, I'll go for it because I actually just finished up this morning, day of recording.
Sonic Forces: Gameplay and Narrative
00:41:55
Speaker
So Sonic Forces, in a different vein to some of the other titles of the modern era, Sonic Forces tries for a more grander story, kind of a little bit in the vein of some of the Dark Age.
00:42:07
Speaker
titles. So basically the game opens with Eggman conducting his latest nefarious plot and Sonic arrives to stop him. However, Eggman has a new ally with him called Infinite who is a really powerful character who is able to kind of bend reality. And Infinite makes short work of Sonic and
00:42:26
Speaker
you know, we cut ahead to several months ahead and we discover that Eggman has basically taken over the planet. Eggman Infinite have captured Sonic, they've asserted control over the planet, but there's a resistance, you know, comprised of all your favourites of Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Silver, etc, etc.
00:42:44
Speaker
and they are doing what they can to try and a combat Eggman and Infinite and be also rescue Sonic and so the game is divided kind of into three kind of main sections so for a lot of the game you'll be playing as you'll be playing a Sonic in the very kind of classic boost formula
00:43:00
Speaker
speed sections. Also classic Sonic makes an appearance in this game so again that's that kind of 2D gameplay reminiscent of Generations and obviously of the original of the Genesis titles but also as well forces a unique thing that you're able to make your own custom character who joins the Resistance and
00:43:17
Speaker
you know helps them fight back against Eggman and the original character's gameplay is kind of very similar to 3D Sonic's but you have the kind of some of the wisp powers from colors which can incorporate so it's it's a slight slight difference to the Son of Sonic 3D gameplay but not too much.
00:43:35
Speaker
Yeah, so there's nothing inherently wrong with this game. I played it, I didn't, it didn't really frustrate me, I didn't get annoyed at it, I didn't think it was bad, I just think it's severely underwhelming. The levels, there's 30 stages in this game, not including secret stages and challenge
00:43:56
Speaker
and things like that and you might be thinking oh 30 that's quite a that's quite a hefty chunk of content they're really not because a lot of these levels you can kind of finish in about two to three minutes so you can really blast through this game very quickly in a couple hours really the levels are
00:44:11
Speaker
They look good, and it can be sort of fun to play them because they are quite spectacular and a lot's happening, but you kind of quickly realise that they seem very hand-holdy. You don't really have much ability to kind of deviate from the path and, you know, like in the kind of older Sonic games where you could find alternate paths and you had that kind of element of control, you don't really have that in this game.
00:44:34
Speaker
It kind of feels like it's sort of like shunting you along a very particular path and every now and then, you know, you'll press a button to do a few things, but the game is very much guiding you. And so that kind of takes away a lot of the fun. The gameplay is like this. I found that the 3D Sonic gameplay to be very kind of refined and, you know, I thought it played well. And the same with the kind of avatar as well, because sorry, the original character, because, you know, they're very similar gameplay styles. It works well, but it doesn't feel like anything special.
00:45:02
Speaker
I didn't get that wow factor that I got when I played Generations, or even when I played some of the Day Missions from Unleashed, or even back to some of the old Genesis games where I was like, oh, you know, saying they all know, but the Adventure games as well, you know, the ones that I played, you got that sense of wow at some of the missions and some of the moments, I never really got that.
00:45:18
Speaker
with forces. The story is admirable that they tried for a grander plot but it feels so odd because on the one hand they're trying to bring back these more epic themes from the Dark Age but they're at the same time trying to keep it within that comedic setting of the modern games and they just don't mesh well. It feels like it was rushed the game, the cutscenes are so short and they feel like they finished abruptly and then it cuts to text boxes where characters explain things and
00:45:45
Speaker
It just feels so disjointed and things happen in missions, you know, and you're not really sure what's happening or like what you did to make it happen, but you're just told that you've done something. You're like, okay, great. And then the mission just ends. And you're like, oh, okay. I was expecting a bit more. It just feels like such a disjointed product and it's just nothing special. And that I think is really the thing about it. It just, it feels run of the mill, but not even that kind of competent run of the mill where you're like, okay, you know, there's nothing special about it. I can have fun with it.
00:46:14
Speaker
It's just so underwhelming. That's the word I keep coming back to. I just, I played it. Yeah, I played it, but it's not a thing that's going to stick with me. It'll be one that I'm going to struggle to remember. Really anything about it, I think, down the
Sonic Forces: Marketing and Reception
00:46:26
Speaker
line. The reason I played this game so much is because for all my fellow Scots and UK people out there, you'll remember a thing called The Beast from the East, which of course was eight.
00:46:36
Speaker
terrible snowstorm that came in and basically grounded the country to a complete halt for a whole week. And I remember playing a lot of Sonic Forces during that time and I'm in the same boat. See at best, like I'm gonna get the good points out of the way here but at best
00:46:51
Speaker
Sonic Forces was... it was relatively workable. You know, I had fun for where it was, you know, I blasted through the levels, I've actually got an S-rank for every single level, except for, like, two of the Shadow levels, which I know you were saying that to me as well, about getting S-ranks really easy. Yeah. Again, it feels undeserved for a lot of the ones that I got. I felt like some of the levels are like, I died a couple times. That thing as well, there's no real penalty for death in this one.
00:47:20
Speaker
like in the old games at least you felt like there was kind of a you're like oh god I'll have to restart level again you don't get that at all you've kind of got infinite tries really if you reach a checkpoint or anything like that and as I said yeah I said like I just felt like I was getting S rank so easily I was like I know I've probably got a bit better at Sonic games but I don't think I'm like that great at them still do you mind if I rant about the story for this one no please please go for
00:47:42
Speaker
That's it. I'm taking off my inhibitor rings here. I'm smashing the picture of Sonic and Shadow having my desk. You'll hear the smash in the background. I am going all out here. I think that say the advertising for this game is nearly on par.
00:47:57
Speaker
with Halo 5 and I can't believe I'm making that comparison. Now I'll tell you why Adam, I'll tell you why because I do have a case for this. Basically when this game was advertised they slowly teased out who was coming out. So you know they had Sonic of course you know fighting the massive batnik in the city and then they introduced classic Sonic again which
00:48:17
Speaker
obviously it was good for a one-time thing in Generations but when they just brought them back I think everyone collectively was like okay they're doing the nostalgia bait thing again because they're like oh it worked in Generations because Generations was a celebration of the franchise guys it wasn't like we don't want this in every game and of course they end up getting like 50 versions of
00:48:38
Speaker
Green Hill Zone, thank you Sega, which makes me suck a Green Hill Zone now, which is a shame because it's such a well designed zone, and obviously Sega know that as well, so they're like, oh look, Green Hill Zone, it's
Customization and Nostalgia in Sonic Forces
00:48:48
Speaker
like, me get it. Because even in the Sonic movie, they did that as well. They introduced Green Hill Zone as being amazing. I never want to leave this, and blah blah blah. Anyway.
00:48:55
Speaker
All I'll say is, Classic Sonic's gameplay is horrible. His momentum doesn't pick up at all, his speed doesn't even go over some ramps and loops at times. It feels as if he's been rushed in severely. Oh, and did you pick up what they said about Classic Sonic? Oh, is it this kind of retconning of his story?
00:49:16
Speaker
yeah so it's like from what I gathered in Generations they said that oh it was you know sonic from the past but in this one they're like oh it's sonic from a different dimension and it's like excuse me sonic from a what now a different dimension what no
00:49:32
Speaker
No. And again, this isn't me being like a salty fanboy, which I usually am, but why did they have to say that? You know, again, going back to some other points I'm actually really angry at. Well, when I say angry, I just want to clarify because I'm looking at my Red Panda lawyer in the corner.
00:49:49
Speaker
and he's like kind of you know he's giving me a bit careful what you say look but basically this is the game where you can create your own OC okay and see let's face it if you're a sonic fan out there you've probably made your own OC you have been waiting for the day
00:50:04
Speaker
you can create your own OC. But this is the most cookie cutter version of this I have ever seen in a game. Is it from an outsider perspective, how did you feel about it Adam? It did feel limited in a way. I didn't really play around with it very much, I'll be honest. I made a kind of, well I made my original character based off my dog, so I kind of made, it was, I didn't really play around and see all the options, but it seemed like they put a lot of effort into the kind of customisable
00:50:32
Speaker
stuff you know like the clothes and so there seems to be quite a lot of options to do with that which you kind of unlock as the missions gone but from my kind of cursory glance it didn't seem to be all that much when you're actually kind of building you know the your base character before you add all that kind of accoutrements to them. I would agree with that the accessories seem to have had a lot more effort put into them
00:50:51
Speaker
than the core characters themselves. Because they all look the same. There's a final battle at the end where they literally copy and paste the same custom characters everywhere. And it's like, well, who's supposed to be the clones? Is it supposed to be the ones who run for that? Or is it supposed to be us? You know, are we getting like an inception slash
00:51:10
Speaker
Blade Runner kind of scenario going on here. Now that's too much credit for them. It's just one thing I'm really angry at, and again, so in the game, you know, there's a limit to angry. It's like, not angry angry, but just annoyed, is the fact that also they nostalgia baited so hard for this game. We had Chaos. We had Zavok. I know, I know. I've ranted about him. We had a Shadow as an enemy. We had
00:51:36
Speaker
Metal Sonic as well. These characters and the narrative didn't amount to much at all. Chaos was like it was taken down off screen or rather than a cutscene. Zavok is taken down in a boss battle so is Metal Sonic. Shadow is like Roundhouse kicked at one
00:51:52
Speaker
point. Not the real shadow, the clone shadow. And it was clear they were nostalgia baiting old fans here and they amounted to nothing. Do you know how bad it is? Someone actually went in and modded the game so you could get like a boss fight with Chaos. It actually does look a lot better than what we had in the finished game.
00:52:09
Speaker
I actually can't believe that. I genuinely can't believe they would do something like that. And you can argue, you know, oh, the game was rushed, it was the executives. But I'm going to be honest, and this isn't like a slight at the, you know, the actual people who make these games, because I know they obviously don't have a choice in the matter.
00:52:25
Speaker
about whether these games are rushed or not, but I am so sick of hearing this from the gaming industry. I am so sick of people saying, oh, the game was rushed, therefore we should just accept all the flaws in it. It's like, no, you're putting out a product there under the good faith of the fans, whether it's Sonic, whether it's whatever other franchise you want to put in here. It just, it gets me really riled up because I thought, you didn't have to have Chaos in there. You didn't have to have Zavok then again who's weeping over Zavok.
00:52:52
Speaker
You didn't have to have Shadow and Metal Sonic in these games, you could have just had Infinite.
Character and Narrative Critiques
00:52:58
Speaker
Because Infinite was intimidating enough, but do you want to know why Infinite went to the dark side? You know, I feel like I did read this, but I've instantly forgotten it.
00:53:08
Speaker
Basically it's if you play the Shadow DLC it's because Shadow was infiltrating one of Eggman's bases and Infinite tries to stop him under his normal form and Shadow basically beats the shit out of him and then says you're weak and then goes away and he has like a deviant art hissy fit like imagine like a Sonic OC roleplay here where he's like weak I'm not weak I'm not weak and he goes on
00:53:36
Speaker
Yep, this is our antagonist. He took a hissy fit and they decided to pluck a magical jewel with T's chest. Great, great, thank you, you know. We could have had the complex characters from the adventure series. I would even take Black Doom at this point. That's how bad it is. I would take blood. It's heavy on here, come on. You don't mean that. No, oh, I didn't mean that at all. Do you know what I miss? Legal reasons this is a joke. I'm an interceding on your behalf. Yes. My client would like to plead the fifth.
00:54:03
Speaker
Even the red panda in the corner was like, shh, what are you doing? Like cutting across his neck? Like, what are you doing? Do you know what I miss? I miss Eggman being a credible villain. And I don't know how you feel about this, but in, like, and again, I know I sound like so, you know, oh, he's an adventure fan and everything, but in the adventure games, I'd say that was like peak Eggman.
00:54:24
Speaker
The more and more the games went on, the more diluted he became. Because he wasn't overly complex in the Genesis games, but he didn't have to be. You know, because he was just like a kind of end goal. It was like the gaming landscape of the time. You had to have a villain to beat up. Mario had Bowser, Sonic had Dr. Eggman.
00:54:42
Speaker
But the Mora Mora went on. It went from Eggman threatening to blow up a city, shattering planets, threatening to shoot a hedgehog in the head. Yes, I remember that scene out of Sonic Adventure 2. He held up a gun to Amy's head. Do people just forget these kind of scenes?
00:55:01
Speaker
the franchise and then it gets to you know Sonic Forces where he's supposed to be this threat and he's got Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dipshit following him around in roboticized form and they're like oh sir I think that if we should torture Sonic it's like back away you fools. This is the thing as well because people might think oh well it's hard to write a story like this that's kid friendly. Now tell me this
00:55:24
Speaker
What was Sonic's sat-a-m? Because that whole show was focused around a small group of freedom fighters trying to fight the evil Dr Robotnik. Do you're telling me in the 90s they got it right then? But somehow in 2017 they couldn't get it right? No. I'm just... It's getting a little bit vexing. Because as I said, I'll still play Sonic Forces on and off if I want to just have a very, very quick level. Because believe me, these levels are very quick. But I'll always play Sonic's levels because I can't be bothered with the avatar and
00:55:54
Speaker
I do not like 2D Sonic. I just think he's insufferable to play as. And yet, somehow, they just... I don't know. I don't know whether it's just they're trying to, again, Nintendo-fy Sonic. They're trying to turn them into something he's not. Again, like, as you said, there's a complete clash of tones in this game. We've got Sonic as a tortured soul, but he's not tortured. He's perfectly fine. We've got Knuckle saying, none of this is
00:56:20
Speaker
What is it that says to Victor again? It's like, none of this is good, Victor. That's why they call it war. You have an Amy with 80% of our forces are dead. Pretty much, yeah. Oh no, they have to say destroyed because for some reason, yeah, you can't say killed. Clearly kids won't be able to piece together destroyed and killed.
00:56:39
Speaker
There's a bit in one of the lighter levels during the final climatic battle, where apparently they've got a fleet of ships, which you never see, like the Resistance do, which you never see. There's one bit in one of Sonic's levels towards the end where you're running across one of the ship's captains, like, we'll try and buy you time, Sonic, and then shortly afterwards he's like, ah, we're hit! Abandon ship and everything! And you're like, what is happening on this?
00:57:00
Speaker
I'm imagining scenes out of the Star Trek into darkness where people are getting ripped out of holding the ship into space and stuff but of course we just get the classic text box forces to explain what's happening but I'm like the game just feels all over the place like tonally in its story. It's like Porken. It's just this pink fashion. Dog Corkens or whatever the captain was I couldn't see. Do you know what would actually fit into this game? See honestly if you put in Star Fox
00:57:32
Speaker
That is, Star Fox would not look out of place in this game, you could easily slip that in. You know, it's on the Switch anyway, you might as well put DLC for it. Well can I just say though, there's only one DLC for this, other than the cosmetics, but yes, the after that, they just never released any more. It's 2022, and all the release was Project Shadow or whatever it's called.
00:57:57
Speaker
it's like the shadow dlc where it's three extra levels and you can play shadow in the main story maybe some cosmetics like from other games but you've got i.i from um super monkey ball you've got the knights costume and things like that i mean they're kind of cool for your avatar but that was it you even had this sonic
00:58:15
Speaker
t-shirt, you know, it's like the picture of Sonic that's really poorly drawn. You got that somehow, and yet we got no like DLC, we got nothing for it. Because they were like kind of teasing for that, and I don't know if it's because Sonic Forces is, you know, it was like a poor reception, but Sega can't keep doing this. They can't keep saying like, I was saying this to you earlier when we were talking about Sonic 06, and I was talking about a thing which I neglected to mention in the past episode,
00:58:41
Speaker
called Project 06, which is like this complete reimagining of Sonic 06, like the levels at least, and as far as I know it's like a one-man team where he's actually revised Sonic and Shadow stages, he's still looking at Silvers, and it reminded me that Sonic 06 was supposed to come out for the PC,
00:59:02
Speaker
you know and it's like so because Sonic 06 didn't do well they just didn't bother you can keep like whenever your game fails you can't just say right we're not going to make more content for it guys it's like stop being wimps and
Sonic Mania: Fan Dedication vs. Sega
00:59:15
Speaker
just just commit to a game what do you commit then say yeah and then of course you know what i'll just briefly touch on sonic media sonic media is good okay it's good
00:59:25
Speaker
It's not my cup of tea, but it's a good 2D game. What were your thoughts? Before I go off on another rant about how bad Forces is, what were your thoughts on Mania? Mania was really... I had a lot of fun with Mania. I didn't finish it. I think I got four levels in. I got to the flying battery level. It's really good. It's a really well-designed game. It's a lot of fun. It has a good level of challenge to it. It's a perfect homage to that 2D Genesis era of Sonic.
00:59:52
Speaker
And again, a lot, they are reusing a lot of stages. I know they, I think they've put their own kind of spin to them, but the, you know, things like flying battery is there. And I think Green Hill Zones, the first one, Casino Nights. There's a lot of those kinds of zones, but really, really good. A lot of fun, like, but I was going to ask you, I had a question I was going to ask you about both Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces together. Because obviously they came out the same year, didn't they?
01:00:14
Speaker
Here's a question for you. So do you think the success of Sonic Mania was very well received? Do you think the success of Sonic Mania is a bad omen for the Sonic series, especially with how Forces was received? Yes and no, because Sonic Forces, to the best of my knowledge,
01:00:29
Speaker
which was developed by Sega themselves. But Sonic Mania was developed by a guy called Christian Whitehead. He's responsible for a lot of the ports of the older games onto your mobile phone and things like that. And that worries me when the fans are doing a better job.
01:00:47
Speaker
than the actual company who create these games. When I say worrying, obviously, you know, take it up with a pinch of salt, but it just seems bizarre that the fans are doing, like, as I said, with Project 06, with, you know, you've got Sonic Robo Plus 2, which is another fan game. You've got all the modding community for generations. They're all doing fantastic work, and I feel as if Sika just don't know
01:01:12
Speaker
how to go forward with Sonic. I mean, I don't know, maybe I could be eating my warts when Sonic Frontiers comes out. Like, maybe if Sonic Frontiers will be fantastic, it'll be a game-changer, it'll be the best thing since, I don't know, Slice Spindash. But it's hard to say. On the one hand, I'm glad Sonic Mania came out and I'm glad that
01:01:32
Speaker
people enjoy it. For me personally, as I've said before, it's no surprise that I'm a huge adventure fanboy, but I was not a huge fan of the 2D games. Again, this isn't me saying oh they're bad or anything, they're not, they're great games. It just wasn't my cup of tea. I prefer the style of the adventure games, but I'm worried that because the 2D aspect is starting to slowly creep into the 3D, and maybe with the frontiers they're gonna do away with that, but
01:02:00
Speaker
Up until this point, one thing I really hated was the integrated 2D aspects, whether it be with colours, generations. Lost World had it as well, and Forces had bits of it, and you're just like, we get it.
2D vs. 3D Gameplay Preferences
01:02:14
Speaker
Even with Generations, there were scenes where you were playing a 3D Sonic and you were forced to do 2D, and it's like,
01:02:20
Speaker
I don't want to play 2D Sonic. If I'm playing a 3D Sonic game, I want to play 3D Sonic. Why are you forcing me to play Green Hills for the 30th time? I'm hoping that they're just not going to latch on to the 2D aspect again and they're going to be like, oh, but fans love 2D. It's too much of a good thing. And by forces, it had completely outstayed its welcome. I mean, maybe this is nostalgia bias, but I'm quite curious to hear what you think. I would say I prefer the Dark Age over this age, personally.
01:02:51
Speaker
And that's controversial, I know, but there's just, other than Generations, sorry, let me point that out, Generations is the only kind of saving grace in this period, but I feel as if everything else is all over the place, from what gameplay style they're going to choose, to their design choices, to aren't they going to dip their toes in the serious aspect, oh no they're not, we're just going to put a text box up, like what are your thoughts, sorry? It's such a difficult, it's such a good question, such a difficult question,
01:03:19
Speaker
You're far more informed to speak about this than I am because you've played more of the games from both eras. I've only played a smattering. I think if you were to ask me what era of games I would more like to play, I would probably pick the modern era because I really, I loved, I really, really loved Generations and I actually really enjoyed Mania and I know Mania is basically a direct homage to the Genesis era.
01:03:42
Speaker
of games, but I really enjoyed those two. I didn't have any problems playing forces, you know, it wasn't, I didn't get frustrated, didn't have any kind of mechanical problems, while I got frustrated with a lot of the mechanics of some of the Dark Age games. That being said...
01:03:59
Speaker
I kind of admire more the attempts in the Dark Age because I think they were trying to be slightly more innovative. As much as I don't particularly like the stories from a lot of the Dark Age games, I admire that Sega and Sonic Team were trying to make kind of grander, more epic tales than what they're doing in the modern age. So I don't know where I fall here because it's that way of
01:04:25
Speaker
I guess because I'd more rather play the modern era games I'm going to lean slightly into saying I prefer the modern age, but I don't really say that with any confidence.
Hopes for Sonic's Narrative Future
01:04:34
Speaker
I will sit very uncomfortably on this fence, I think. I totally see what you mean. I will agree that.
01:04:40
Speaker
the modern era is by far the most technically gameplay-wise it's the best era of Sonic because even with Mania, Mania is loops and bounds above what the Genesis may be provided and that might be controversial but it was like the kind of honed in all of the best bits of Sonic into one loving game and loving tribute. It even had your boy Fang in it. I know, I know. I'm so happy when I heard that.
01:05:08
Speaker
yeah you know you had like even i know they were technically of like mirages but you had like Bean the Dynamite, you had Bark the Bear was it or Bark the Power Bear, you had Mighty and Ray the Squirrel coming back it was just such a love letter to the fans it's just a shame that it was tied into Mania because they have like the Phantom Ruby that you have to try and get back and
01:05:31
Speaker
It's just a shame. It really is like a shame that had to be tied to forces. Gameplay-wise, I totally concede and think this is a lot more tight-knit. They know kind of what they're doing with the gameplay, but story-wise, I think they're just too worried. And don't get me wrong, again, maybe this'll change with Frontiers, but I just feel as if they're too scared to do anything kind of daring.
01:05:56
Speaker
Again, because I mean, you could say technically they did that with Sonic Boom and Sonic Lost were old, but that was more to pander to Nintendo fans. It wasn't really to pander to Sonic fans, if that makes sense? And with Forces, Forces did try to make a serious story. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying
01:06:14
Speaker
that they should have had, saving Private Ryan with like hedgehogs on the beaches of not in Normandy, you know, like fighting Eggman robots, you've got a no-see with a leg blown off going, ah I'm here, I'm here, you know. I'm not saying that at all, I'm not saying we should devolve back into like Dark Age storytelling, but at least with the Dark Age storytelling there was a lot more memorable moments in the
01:06:37
Speaker
maybe I'm wrong because there'll be some people saying oh remember the candy level out of sonic colours or oh remember the candy level out of Lost World and that might be their favourite moments or Generations might be the first game. You know what, at the end of the day I am not taking away anyone's enjoyment of these games. If you love the modern era that is you know perfectly fine, perfectly valid. For me though again I'm gonna sit in the fence with you budge up. I think that yeah
01:07:05
Speaker
I think gameplay wise the modern era is the better but I think storytelling has taken a significant dip and I can't justify it and again there's that whole like we've got a whole
Anticipation for Sonic Frontiers
01:07:16
Speaker
episode in this actually don't we where it's like narrative versus gameplay
01:07:20
Speaker
you know where we discuss in that episode what's more important. Is gameplay more important? Like with Sonic, should Sonic be more objectively good but not have a good story? Or should it have a fantastic story but just terrible terrible gameplay? You know these are the kind of things that they have to balance and get right. And maybe in the future, I mean it's been five years as far as I know since the last like mainstream Sonic game and I think it's coming out this year for frontiers so
01:07:48
Speaker
I don't know. I'm kind of waiting with baited breath, but I don't quite know. We've been talking about Sonic the Hedgehog for pretty much the last three episodes, so is there any kind of closing comments that you want to make both for this era and the era as a whole?
01:08:04
Speaker
I mean, it's been a lot of fun for me to delve into Sonic's history, you know, from the very start to where it is now, especially for, as I said before, being a series that I really knew, I'd never played a game in, I knew very little about, I kind of knew the sort of...
01:08:20
Speaker
other people have said about it and it's been fun to kind of go into the series and discover more about it and see like all it's how varied it actually is and I think it's a fascinating series both in terms of its games and in terms of you know reactions to them and how you know Sega have responded to that. It feels like one of the most interesting things now with Sonic is the conflict between those fans of the 2D games and the fans of the 3D games
01:08:46
Speaker
and it kind of feels now that and that's why I was asking a bit about kind of mania's reception compared to forces it kind of feels like those two camps again this is an outsider's perspective so maybe I'm wrong in saying this but it feels like those two camps are kind of getting separated
01:09:01
Speaker
more and more. And it feels like the people who grew up with the 2D games really want that version of Sonic, both in terms of the 2D gameplay, but also maybe more in terms of that simple storytelling. And they really don't want to return to the more grand epic tales of the Dark Age, while other people who grew up playing the early 3D games, and even the later ones, into the Dark Age of it,
01:09:26
Speaker
want to see a return more to that kind of style of storytelling and maybe even more of the kind of varied gameplay. To me, it's just interesting to see the kind of divide in the family. I'm interested in where the series goes and then how also Sega and Sonic Team kind of respond to that and kind of how do they bridge this gulf? Can you make both sides happy now? Is there a game that can bring? I suppose Generations to an extent did that.
01:09:51
Speaker
as far as i know but can you do it now can they can another game you know marry these two camps together or are they just too far apart and what what's this what's this gonna mean for sonic is sonic gonna eventually just go in one of these directions is it just gonna go backwards to an extent and just go you know back to the kind of 2d format of things or is it gonna stick with the you know the 3d elements so i think it's a fascinating kind of debate and a fascinating issue and i'm interested to see where it goes
01:10:18
Speaker
And hopefully it gets a happy resolution. You want fans to get something that they enjoy and appeal to a lot. You're not going to please everybody, but you want something that pleases a great majority. So fingers crossed they can say again Sonic Team can find a way to make a kind of all-encompassing Sonic game, but I guess we'll just have to see.
01:10:36
Speaker
looking back on what we discussed in both the Retro Age and the Dark Age, I have always said that I appreciate Sonic for, you know, trying new things. Like, whether it worked or not, you know, like with those sex or the adventure series with heroes, you know, they were always trying something different. But I think that's come to bite them in the modern era, where I think
01:10:59
Speaker
in the Dark Age people were getting sick of these 3D platformers and they're like oh we want a return to form with Sonic as a 2D side-scroller, so therefore we had the 2D sections in Sonic Colours, we had Sonic 4, Sonic Generations of course had it, Lost World has aspects of it, I don't think Sonic Boom has it but Sonic Forces has and of course that culminated into Sonic Mania which now people are kind of sick
01:11:25
Speaker
of Sonic. It's a 2D platformer again because it feels more like nostalgia pandering of, oh it's Green Hill Zone again, yay, it's classic Sonic again, yay, it's modern Sonic, yay, you know. And this is the problem, this is the inherent issue that they have diversified so much over the years that I don't think they could please everyone anymore. Again, you're never gonna, as you said, you're never gonna please everyone. You are never gonna please every single part of the fanbase but it's gotten to a stage now where it's like,
01:11:54
Speaker
Sonic has become such a giant franchise, you know? It almost seems as if there's a thing for everyone at this stage, but at the same time, where do they go from here? Because it's like, do they go back to the serious storytelling? As I've said before, I've read some of the comics for the, I think it was the Metal Virus saga it's called, and absolutely fantastic, it's the IDW comics I want to say. And that takes, that's set, I think,
01:12:22
Speaker
after like a while after Sonic forces where they're trying to like recover everything and then Dr Eggman releases a bio weapon essentially onto the world it's absolutely fantastic and it shows that Sonic can still be kind of relatively kid-friendly but at the same time have like a really serious story but I feel as if nowadays at least for the modern age I feel as if they try to depend on stereotypes too much
01:12:48
Speaker
you know, we don't get Sonic being cocky and kind of developing. You know, Sonic is just like this. I don't even know how to put it. He's just like this arrogant, oh look at me, ha ha, Baldy McNosey are like the same three jokes. Like, you know that annoying kid in school where it's just like, say, repertoire.
01:13:05
Speaker
exactly, it's like the same joke every so often. And then he's got like his friend who comes in which obviously his tail's gone, yeah, both of me know his hair, hehehe. And then of course you've got Shadow which I think is the worst offender because apparently SEGA have this like real thing for writing him as this like ultra edgelord and it's like it just doesn't work. It really doesn't work but they obviously because someone played Shadow the Hedgehog once
01:13:31
Speaker
Like, even in the Sonic Boom cartoon, that's his whole character. He's like a too cool for school. Get away from me. You know, kind of thing you think. Well, what's the point? What's the point of being invested in the series when clearly the writers aren't? Maybe I'm being too harsh on it. Like, am I being too harsh on it, do you think?
01:13:49
Speaker
I don't know, I mean, maybe you watch the extent, but I don't think... It's just that thing, it's just very different to what Sonic was in the 2000s. It's quite a different direction, and I don't think it's a direction that has as much appeal to it. From a narrative, I'm talking purely from the narrative here.
01:14:10
Speaker
it doesn't maybe have as much appeal to a wider audience as the Dark Age games did. At least, you know, they had the humorous elements, but also they had more kind of serious epic storytelling that's kind of absent from the modern era. So I think your criticism is valid to that extent. Thank you. Is my Red Panda legal aid on this side as noting an approval? We'll see how it goes.
01:14:37
Speaker
To be honest, we'll see how the modern era, well, as it kind of, you know, wraps up and we'll get a new era coming in. We'll see how this age wraps up and hopefully it'll kind of usher in maybe something that has a bit more of a broad appeal. But again, as I said, Sonic is such a vast franchise. It's got different genres. You know, it's tried party games with Sonic Shuffle. We've got Sonic Freeriders and Sonic Transformed.
01:15:05
Speaker
You've got your platformers, obviously the whole game's a platformer, but you've got your shooter ones with Shadow, you've got the team-based ones with Heroes. It's just massive, this franchise. It's absolutely gigantic now. And whatever era you like, I'll just leave it at this, but whatever era you like of Sonic, and I don't mean this in a stochastic way, but I genuinely mean this in all sincerity, good for you.
01:15:27
Speaker
Like, if you enjoy, like, even Sonic Boom, if Sonic Lost World was your first one and it was great, all power to
Encouraging Sonic Fans and Conclusion
01:15:34
Speaker
you. Like, genuinely. If you love Sonic Generations, good taste. At the end of the day, like, you know, even if you love Shadow of the Hedgehog or O6, don't let anybody, you know, come at you and say, oh those games are terrible, because maybe objectively they've got some minor or major hiccups, but at the end of the day, if you enjoy them and you absolutely love them, don't let anyone take that away from you.
01:15:55
Speaker
and especially being like a Sonic fan don't let anybody buy into the meme of saying oh Sonic is a terrible franchise and everything you know because you are going to get people like that but just ignore them and have fun with the franchise so yeah that would be my kind of closing point couldn't agree more and yeah on that note will we wrap up let's do it let's let's put a bow on this Adam thank you so much for the amount of research that you've done for this episode and really all episodes for this month
01:16:24
Speaker
Oh, it's been my, it's been an absolute pleasure. Like I've really, I enjoyed doing research anyway, but I'm so happy how much I enjoyed kind of researching the Sonic series. Cause it's a fascinating series. I was saying this to you earlier today, before we started recording, I think it's one of the most interesting game series out there just in terms of, as I say, the games themselves, but also the history and you know, the kind of thoughts behind it, reactions to it, responses to that. It's just a fascinating series to look at and to examine. So it's been my pleasure. Honestly.
01:16:51
Speaker
I really appreciate it because I know you did suggest this month and I'm glad you know that you got to experience like what I did growing up with Sonic and getting to see the games for yourself and forming your own opinions. I just want to say I did not influence Adam's opinions in any way. All opinions are his own so nope not me. Don't sue Satsufa, anything that sue me but please don't please don't.
01:17:18
Speaker
I don't need that right now. As I said I've got a red panda lawyer in the corner so you know he'll have at it. That really wraps up our really our broad retrospectives on the games except for one era but before we get into the adventure era and we start talking about the good the bad and the big
01:17:39
Speaker
about these games. We are going to be doing a very special episode next week where we're going to be talking about the trivia of the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise and Adam are you ready for it? I am. I'm excited and nervous and every other emotion in between but I'm really excited to see to get to know more about this about this lore. Well as Adam sports up on the Sonic books
01:18:05
Speaker
Yeah, thank you all so so much for listening to this episode of Chat Tsunami, and if you've got a favourite game in this franchise, whether it be from the Retro Age, the Dark Age or even the Modern Age, please feel free to let us know, either on Twitter or Instagram or whatever you want really, because we would love to hear what you have to say. But until then, you can hear us and really our other opinions on video game series, films, anime and the like.
01:18:31
Speaker
You can catch us on Anchor, Spotify, iTunes and YouTube under the name Chat Tsunami. Just look for the red panda and we will see you there. But until then guys, stay safe, stay awesome, stay hydrated and stay fast.