Transcript
Speaker: You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host Ken Volante.
Speaker: Editor and producer, Peter Bauer. This is Ken Volante with Something Rather Than Nothing podcast and we have an artist from Washington State, Paige Pettibon. I discovered her art on Instagram and some coverage of her incredible
Speaker: It deemed activist art, but images of solidarity amongst Native Americans and African Americans. Paige Pedebon, I'm glad I discovered those images. I'm glad I discovered your art. Welcome to something rather than nothing. Thank you for having me, Ken. I'm happy to be here. I'm a fan of the podcast. Yeah, thanks so much. You know, one of the
Speaker: One of the things that I really love doing the podcast is getting to learn more about the act of creation and about how the artists I profile create and what drives that. A big question right at the beginning is, when you were born, do you think you were an artist? I do. I think that
Speaker: But I don't think I'm unique in that way. I think a lot of people are born artists. And as we grow up, we either stick with it or don't. I think my parents valued art in our household. My sisters are also artists in their own right, too. And my parents, I believe, are as well. And their parents, my
Speaker: maternal and paternal grandmas were artists. So I think it was something that was valued in my household and was facilitated. Therefore, I was able to develop it as I got older. And I believe for me, it was something I could do
Speaker: uh, with limited resources and on my own time as well. You don't really need much to be an artist. You just need like a pencil and a piece of paper or inspiration to, you know, hum a tune, right? And come up with like a song. So I think, um, you know, art's one of the most accessible, uh, forms of, uh, creation, you know, for, for people, uh, you know,
Speaker: Yeah, so I think I was an artist at birth and was nurtured as an artist, which is also really helpful. Thanks, Paige. A follow -up question to that. I was really interested in your comments there about the accessibility of art, right? You can hum a tune, need a pencil, and you can create things. You and I know that.
Speaker: Is there something about the art world or how it seems to be this super refined palace and beautiful paintings? When people think about art that way, it's a lot different than the accessibility that you talk about. You think that's a problem for young artists, that they think art is something way up in the heavens? Definitely. That's probably one of the biggest issues I've had to combat and probably
Speaker: will be one of my lifelong work in my art practice, which is having art accessible for everybody. It's also a cognitive thing too, right? I think if you're in survival mode and you are looking for food or a job or a place to live, shelter,
Speaker: you won't have the mental capacity to make art, which is unfortunate, right? Because it can be really good medicine for people. I know it's good medicine for me. And there was a period of time where it wasn't something that I practice like I do now. And so my efforts, I would say like my art practice is to make it accessible for like working class people and for youth.
Speaker: And for elders, too, I think it's just really good medicine for everyone. And if I can facilitate that accessibility for people in creating or enjoying art, it could give good medicine to them. And they can have that be granted that, you know, in that world of art and being able to appreciate it and
Speaker: It is an issue that I'm trying to break that barrier in my own way, I suppose. I listen to a lot of talks where folks say, it is good to have art that's really fine and expensive.
Speaker: but also good to make art that is affordable for everyday people. So I try to think about that, it is okay to go big and beyond and as grandiose as possible, but also think about people that, everyday people working class people and what art can do for them too. Yeah, I'm very much
Speaker: Yeah, I'm very much connected to those points. You know, I grew up in the city and in Pawtucket working class, Pawtucket, Rhode Island working class background and
Speaker: You know, art's pretty foreign in that environment, you know, working class, city kid, and it's there, you know, I mean, our movies are there and things are around that are really art, but I don't quite see it that way. Or the availability, honestly, of art as medicine, which is a profound walking, for me, walking in art as medicine or profound realizations I have achieved
Speaker: within the last couple of years and I'm 48. So I've achieved knowledge or connection to that medicine. But of course, when you're younger, the environment really dictates of whether availability or access. And I know a lot of, I see some of the work that you've done and the way you talk about your work as being more popular, like kind of like popular art or accessible art. And I believe you've done some work in the schools as well?
Speaker: Yeah, so I used to work at the tribal school here in Tacoma, Puyallup area. It's called Chief Leschi Schools. I was a parrot educator there for a couple of years and I wanted to be, I wanted to step into the education system because one, I like being the student now, but it wasn't always that way. Growing up, I thought,
Speaker: I like everybody thought I was stupid or something because I just didn't learn the way others did and I needed to be like taken out for supplemental reading classes or math classes. I was a terrible speller. I wasn't great at math and I think just like
Speaker: my, the way I learn is very different than how the school systems are set up. And it's changed some, but if we really, I mean, I, I think the way it is now, isn't perfect. There's so much more we need to do. And so that's another reason why I decided to become a para -educator at Chief Leche School, because I wanted to be involved in my community in a good way.
Speaker: But it was so hard. It was so difficult. Our students were struggling with so many things that our school wasn't able to help or guide or really just be a strong
Speaker: support system for our students through education, through mental health, or anything. And there's big division. So it was really frustrating for me because I couldn't make as much headway as I wanted to. But the way I was able to connect with students was through art. And I was able to bring them outside of their world through art by having them be involved in
Speaker: what this art show called the yahao the yahao show which was at the king street station in seattle which turned into a whole new i mean it's just become its own thing now i can't even describe the the reach it has it's it's a collective of indigenous artists of over 200 artists they work with libraries in different cities around washington and
Speaker: They have digital workshops for folks. They just do everything for Indigenous folks so that they can become successful artists, having them be visible in space, like all types of spaces, and then also having workshops. Because being an artist is really a full -time job. Coming up with proposals, writing artist statements and such, it's a lot of work. And luckily, I have
Speaker: really strong support because I definitely would be overwhelmed and wouldn't be able to do what I can do if I didn't have such great support. But yeah, what was your question?
Speaker: No, no, no, no, I know we're just we're just chatting. No, it was just really just connecting back. I was asking about the public, you know, the the working in the public school. You know, I actually represent para educators, education support professionals and a lot of them. So I'm very like connected to the work that's done there. But I'm also very connected to both the hopes and the problems of K to 12 public education in the United States of America.
Speaker: I know it. Thanks for your comments on that. Paige, I wanted to delve a little bit more into the aspect of the collective. I know that some of the art images that you've had and you've done some work with a collective around bringing awareness to
Speaker: on solidarity amongst people about voting, about important public and political matters in this country right now. What about that collective and what that project that you're working on?
Speaker: So the Yehau Show has many, there's a few curators. Asia Tail was the first person I met, and she's the curator. I believe it was her idea to come up with the Yehau Show. And then she has Tracy Rector, who is a producer. She's in film. And then there's Satpreet Kalan, who is another artist.
Speaker: a very strong advocate for artists getting paid. All of them are really strong advocates for artists getting paid. And I think their support to reach out to Indigenous artists and be like, this is your worth. And these are the tools we can help you. And we think you would be good for this project.
Speaker: They have such a big pool of artists that they try to reach out to and they try to grow it. Mostly it's in the Pacific Northwest, but it doesn't mean that's just Pacific Northwest tribes because a lot of indigenous folks have moved for whatever reason to this region. So I try to think of it as like an intertribal relationship because it gets a little bit tricky when it comes to
Speaker: tribes and nations because it's not confined to these binaries, right? A lot of people are mixed and a lot of people are different tribes and a lot of people have moved from other tribes to this region. So it's all tribes. It's not just Pacific Northwest tribes, artists that are included. And it ranges from different art practices, some people that are
Speaker: they are musicians or you know digital artists, print makers, art of all different mediums and architects and just a really great collective of different types of art and they have
Speaker: I'm sure all the artists feel this way where they feel like a special connection to the curators because the curators are really good at
Speaker: finding the right projects for us. So we feel like super seen because they're like, Paige, you're an Afro -Indigenous artist and we really want us to make these posters for protesters. There's a strong need. Are you able to do it in this timeframe? And we're going to give you this much money. And I'm like, yes, I feel like they've read my mind.
Speaker: because that's exactly what I needed to do. I have been in quarantine this whole time. I really did not go out except for the grocery store or the post office. I was pretty frustrated and I had all this
Speaker: emotion that I didn't really have an outlet to express or really feel like I had an outlet to express because I wasn't protesting in the streets. I'm not a natural protester. My form of protesting is through art or through learning
Speaker: an indigenous language or just being me, I guess. That to me is activism as well. When I made these posters, I just felt this amazing reach. The posters went all the way to New York too.
Speaker: they go beyond me, which is something that I've started to see this year is art going beyond people in my community and like going beyond me. And that's, I think one of like the greatest things you could hope for as an artist is have it resonate with folks that you don't even know. So it's been, the Yaha art collective has been a very life changing,
Speaker: community for me in that way. Yeah. Yeah. And one of, one of the things I really appreciate your comment about, you know, for you, you know, the art was to be political. I mean, people think protesting is one thing and disruption, you know, as activists know is many different types of things, right? It can be conceptual, could be breaking down old beliefs or, you know, art or,
Speaker: or, you know, smashing a window. If people look at different options for disruption, right? One of the things, I mean, one of the things I wanted to ask you is, all right, so Paige, it's great to hear the support you have. What about your process as an artist, right? And identifying as black, white, and Salish tribe?
Speaker: When you do that or when you did that, what was the response from the art world? I'm not talking about you or me. I'm talking about identity. What happened in that process? Was it like, where do I fit you? What was that like? Yeah.
Speaker: Oh gosh, okay, so I just graduated from the Native Pathways program and we talk about these concepts so much about identity and how we do not fit in these Western binaries, right? And I think this is starting to change. I think there's a movement starting to change because a lot of people, you know, identify as
Speaker: non -gendered binaries, right? And I think race can be the same way too, you know, like how people perceive me will I honestly have a very like, I have a very like restricted idea of what people perceive me as because I know I am fair skinned. But I'm definitely like not white passing to me. So, um,
Speaker: All of that plays a factor, but I think as someone who is a descendant of indigenous folks, as someone who is a descendant of slaves, and as someone who is a descendant of white settlers, it is my responsibility to take that and to process it, right? To understand my privileges and understand, like,
Speaker: what I can do to pass on for the next generations. You know, I think about, so my dad is white and my mom is black and native. And reclaiming my indigenous and black culture is really important to me. And I think by doing that, I show others that it's okay to be a multi,
Speaker: racial. So I don't deny my white side either, but I definitely don't believe in the Western colonial settler norms. But I try to gracefully question it and try not to attack it in a way that doesn't
Speaker: promote a progressive conversation of, because I think like the default mode is white settler perspective. You know, it's a default mode. You see it in history books, you see it in movies, and just like fiction, nonfiction, you see that the default mode is to think this way. And so with my work, I try to challenge it in a way that's
Speaker: that breaks these binaries. It makes people just kind of think introspectively. And I try to be a safe place for respectful questions. You know, I don't really have the patience for people who are on extremes on both sides. You know, a lot of people are thinking they're having their woke moment by canceling everything and
Speaker: And then there's people who are on the far other side that are just so conservative. And I think that doesn't really leave room for growth on either end. And it ends up being kind of a static belief. And I think
Speaker: You can't really grow from a place of place of stillness, right? You have to be moving you have to be open To listening to someone and you have to agree with them But I think just being able to listen will keep us moving forward and the work that I do it, you know it I tried to have this multi
Speaker: identity, multi -culture, multiracial perspective of seeing black indigenous people doing things that are maybe otherwise not what one would think. Like I did a painting of my nephew who's Mexican black and Puyallup and it's a painting of his first time fishing on the Puyallup River.
Speaker: And I think people, maybe they don't see that, right? Maybe they don't see that in art. They don't see as much color or, you know, black children in natural settings. It's all urban settings. And we are urban natives, urban Afro -Indigenous people, but we also connect back to our natural environment, to our roots, to our ancestral ways of being.
Speaker: So, you know, we aren't in this like binary of just like city kids too. You know, we definitely go back to nature and balance our lives the best way we can in this modern world.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And I know there's a lot of new comments that made me think, and I've been thinking for a long time about the options for the discussion, right? Whether it's the binary of politics, Democrats, Republicans, I don't fit into either. Or, you know, my racial, ethnic background, you know,
Speaker: the white, uh, black and, and, and, and others, you know, census, um, very important identity is very important, but, uh, my personal truth is I don't know how to quite pick all that. So, you know, even our conversation, right. And around this is like, you know, is, is this conversation more fertile? Like on my side, uh, to say, you know, like, um,
Speaker: Irish, in descending order, Irish, British, Canadian, French, working classroom, Quebecois, Native American, Senegabian, African, and do we get anything better than me saying, okay, this is this 48 -year -old white guy talking to activist artists, which, you know, it's like, how do people, you know, like, what we bring into this conversation, I, as a philosopher, always found
Speaker: more fertile ground in talking about, wow, this is a boundary here. This is a question of identity here in having the discussion there because we're going to miss each other on the way it's framed for us. I think that's where the, I mean, for me, that's where the communication sometimes really breaks down. It's like, you're a Democrat, I'm a Republican. Now I know how to behave and you know how to behave, right? Towards each other. And I don't think it's straight.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree. I think that there's a danger in that. And I think we see it with the divide in our nation, right? America is not divided by just Democrats and Republicans. We're not just divided by white and black. We have
Speaker: Asian Americans, we have Native Americans, we have nations within this nation that people don't really think about or even know how sovereign nations within America work. I think if we first dismantled these binaries, we're able to move forward.
Speaker: Honestly, I have changed so much throughout my life and I'm only 33. Yeah, 33. I forget how old I am all the time. I'll be 34, July 12th. Once I learned that I don't have to sit with this idea that I had of myself, that I have of
Speaker: other people or what I'm supposed to be doing. Once I learned that I can pretty much do anything and I can grow from an idea, I was like set free. My mom has always taught me, okay, so my parents are pretty funny. My dad, he thinks he's like this
Speaker: Republican guy, you know, he was like pro Trump, it was a pretty hard time, I would say. And then my mom, she's a little, she's a little bit liberal, but she kind of has a conservative side too. And but my mom was always really good at saying people who do bad things aren't bad people.
Speaker: Right. And that was the hardest thing for me. I'm like, but they're doing bad things. They make, they make me feel bad and they're doing bad things. I think they're a bad person. And she's like, no, that doesn't make them a bad person. So once I see that, like, you know, for me, I do believe your actions say a lot, but I do now that I've gotten older, I do understand that we are a product of trauma success. Um,
Speaker: Our communities were a product of our ancestors, our family lineage, histories before us, you know, and that makes up a lot of who we are. And in the present moment, you know, this tension that we start to feel with politics and health crisis and, you know, a capitalistic society.
Speaker: So we are these products and it manifests itself in different ways. And it doesn't make us in this binary of good or bad. It doesn't help us in any kind of way to be stuck in these patterns that define us. I think we can break these patterns and make for good change.
Speaker: Um, and I try to think that when I meet someone and I have an impression of them and I don't like it, I'm like, well, you know, there's room for change. There's, there's room for growth. They may, they may change because I have a conversation with them and we may find some common ground. So I try to think that like there's room for growth, room for change. And I find.
Speaker: It to be a difficult exercise sometimes. But I think with people who I hold close, they hold me accountable to keeping that. My partner, whenever I complain about anything, my partner's like, well, you don't really know if they really mean that. And I get mad. But then I'm like, that's true because I'm not the best at conversation. I think that's why I do so well with art.
Speaker: Because the way I communicate is, I don't think is as clear for some folks. And you know, if we have a different cultural background, words aren't always the best way to get a point across. So I think for me, using my art
Speaker: I definitely feel really good feedback and reception from my art versus things that I say. So I feel comfortable in that medium.
Speaker: how you present yourself to the world, right? And then with art, it's always this kind of, you know, this is you, but it's an object as well. We're speaking with Paige Pettibon and Paige, one of the big questions, Paige, what is art? Okay. So I've been thinking about this for all week. I've gone on a couple of walks outside
Speaker: and just thinking about it. And to me, the human species, we are animals, right? And I think what sets us apart is language from other animals. I think language sets us apart. And I think art is another form of language. Maybe it's the language of our spirit.
Speaker: Maybe it's the language of our soul. But to me, it is another form of language. It's a way to communicate with others. And also, I've been listening to the show a lot and a lot of people have their different ideas of art and what it is not. But I do think that art is, it can be of like the natural world.
Speaker: I think of songbirds. I think they have their own songs, which is, you know, art in itself. And their homes, their little nests are a little piece of art. They collect things and they curate their little homes, you know, based off of their environment. And I think that's what we do as artists too, right? We create these little pieces of art, which could be like a home of our environment.
Speaker: And then also another thing is that art to me is my medicine. It really is. It's helped me through my life, my experiences and communicating with people. I feel like if I didn't have art, I probably would be an outcast. I probably would be not in a good place.
Speaker: To me, it is medicine as well. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for that. I've really connected it to it in that way. And one of the things when I first, and it's just me, to explore the point just on language, I always attach myself really directly to that when an artist says that, because for me,
Speaker: I had reached a point about three years ago and what I was facing, which was loss, upset, not feeling effective, not feeling at home in a lot of environments that I was in, I started painting. And so I needed a new language. I didn't know it at the time, but I needed something to yell and scream almost, well, a bunch.
Speaker: with painting. And that's what it was for me. So I needed, I needed to say something and I needed to yell it out at the time. And that started, that was the spark for me becoming an artist. It was only about three years ago and it was profound. So whenever you hear somebody say language for me, it was a loud screaming at that time, but I didn't, whatever, whatever words and us talking right now, that was a bit, that wasn't working for me.
Speaker: So I hear you again of the language. I hear you. So one of the general questions about, I think it's maybe identity and where you come from is a question that, who or what made you who you are? Okay.
Speaker: So it's really strange. I would say my parents and my ancestors made me who I am today. The people I'm around, my community. But the funny thing is,
Speaker: I feel like your sisters or siblings, your sisters and brothers or your cousins are kind of like your parallel lives. They're a lot like you and they're set in a different, maybe a different generation or time or something, but they're like an extension of you in a way.
Speaker: And I have two younger sisters. My older sister actually passed away, but I think about our upbringing and I think about how I feel like we were probably raised the same, but we all we all ended up in different paths.
Speaker: And so I always, that's why this is a hard question for me because I feel like I'm a result of my environment and also like, you know, that nurture versus nature, right? Like what's inherent, but I'm like, but then how come my, like the, what I do and the way I process things in my outlook is different than my sister's, you know? So, so that really stumps me. It's like, um,
Speaker: The math equation on that doesn't quite add up. So there's another factor that has to be involved in it, right? That I don't know what it is. There's like an X factor. Yeah, it's like one of those things in math where you create a new symbol to even out the equation, but you know it's kind of, it's not proper. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know what the statistics would be of what I would have ended up like any other way, but I am what I am. I like the idea of like the different trajectories and echoes of like siblings and relatives from the same source, you know, that go out. All right, Paige, another big one.
Speaker: And I know this is the question you really liked is why is there something rather than nothing? I Got a couple things where you can Okay, so I You know how you come up with the most profound things right before you sleep? At least I do that's what keeps me up is like thinking of these big life questions So I was I was thinking um
Speaker: Before I went to bed, I was meditating on this question, and I thought, one of the most harmful things you could do to a person is to put them in solidarity confinement, to take all things away and put nothing in place of that. That's one of the worst things you could do. And so I was thinking,
Speaker: our nature is to have something. And then I brought the question up to my partner and he's like, well, we didn't choose something, we were born into something, like something happened to us. And I was like, oh, that's a good perspective too. It's like, we're just passing on the legacy of something. Yeah.
Speaker: I really appreciate the answers to this, and yeah, there's something profound in there about the solitary, right? And the person unto themselves, like trying to connect to the community. Yeah, oh, I love that answer. Paige.
Speaker: As I mentioned at the outset, I encountered your work on Instagram and I know some of your pieces, which I actually put up on my Facebook, you know, the great, a lot of just, yeah, just beautiful, just beautiful, profound images, really enjoy your art. Well, I do, but I want you to
Speaker: give folks the roadmap to finding your art, what's out there, and maybe as it might be appropriate with things coming up, I don't know the state up in Washington or events that are going on there, but just what you'd like people to know about where to find your art. Thank you, Ken. So I only have two Instagram accounts.
Speaker: art page is page underscore peta bond. And then my jewelry is at plane to see plane underscore to underscore C S E a like it's from like planes region to the sea.
Speaker: That's what my name is after. And then my website is pagepetabon .com. Also, I have some upcoming events with the Smithsonian. They are doing a digital exhibition. That should be coming out this year. I'm not sure exactly when.
Speaker: And then if anyone comes to the Seattle area, they can go visit the Stonington Gallery. I have two paintings in there right now, and I'll have another one up in there in June. I have a art project that I am working on that will be in Portland. I'm not exactly sure the location, but there will be an indoor
Speaker: Mural on a wall that I'll be working on for this new sustainable building project that they're working on I also have a Mural at North Seattle College that will be in the works that will be finished at the end of June I believe two for their their one of their art collect art electives is to
Speaker: to painting a mural with an artist's design and they picked my design, which was really cool. And so I'm going to give a talk up there with them and they'll have, they'll paint the mural. It's really cool. And then, let's see, I have little odds and jobs around Tacoma too. You know, I think of myself as like a community artist. So there's these,
Speaker: I don't know if you know this, Ken, but I am a Lushutsi learner. Lushutsi is the indigenous language of the Puyallup people. And the Puyallup people are the indigenous people of the land that I live on. And so there will be Lushutsi yard signs that people will have throughout the city of Tacoma and Puyallup.
Speaker: There are these recycling bins that I worked with the City of Tacoma to work on so that they're changing the way we recycle. And they wanted these bins to have beautiful art on them so people will
Speaker: be more likely to go with this change of how to recycle their cardboard, metal and glass. So yeah, you know, it's just like little stuff here and there. But the Smithsonian was probably one of the coolest opportunities I've had so far, you know, something that's available nationwide. So that was really cool.
Speaker: But yeah, I'll keep up the good work so people will be able to find me.
Speaker: A lot of options. I saw the picture of the recycling bin and Paige, you pulled it off. I mean, nobody thinks about recycling bins, but the thing was gorgeous. So, hey, man, you did it. You pulled it off. But one of the things I wanted to say is,
Speaker: The you know the podcast is international But we do have a great deal of listeners in the Pacific Northwest and while I do, you know cover a lot You know as far as the local scene I definitely you know, there's a feel here that you can get out of the show from Washington State and in Oregon and I appreciate you mentioned some of those local pieces because there's a lot of listeners who actually may have the opportunity to check out those public installations
Speaker: in Seattle, and you had mentioned over one in Portland. So we'll be keeping our eyes open for those.
Speaker: Uh, Paige Pettibon, uh, Paige, I just want to thank you so much. I, I, uh, a great conversation with you and I re I really wanted to learn about all the things that I asked. I wanted to learn, I'm seeing your art and seeing, you know, where you're coming from and, and, and working in collective and then thinking about the minds of, of, of the youth and what they're presented. Um, I just want to commend you on your work and thank you for your time stopping on.
Speaker: Thank you Ken and I commend you for your work too. I've learned a lot about artists from all over and thinking about these big questions that stretch my mind. You know, I think it's always good to go beyond yourself and think beyond what you know. So I appreciate you. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for your kind words and Paige, have a great day.
Speaker: You too Ken. This is something rather than nothing.
