Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
How Edmonton city council got rolled by the police
234 Plays2 years ago
Rob Houle joins host Duncan Kinney to discuss a month of police politics that saw the police and their business and UCP allies get everything they wanted with the police budget even if it took the likely withholding of vital facts about the Chinatown murder to get it.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to The Progress Report
00:00:12
Speaker
Friends and enemies, welcome to The Progress Report. I am your host, Duncan Kinney. We're recording today here in Amiskwichiwa, Skaigen, otherwise known as Edmonton, Alberta, here in Treaty Six territory on the banks of the mighty Kasiska-Sawanisapi, or the North Saskatchewan River. Joining us today is friend of the show, Rob Hul, the man who was described by Edmonton's police commission chair, John McDougal as anti-police, anti-chief McPhee, anti-mayor, and anti-city council. Rob, welcome back to the podcast.
00:00:41
Speaker
Happy to be here, Duncan. Thank you for having me. I had no idea you were so anti everything until, uh, you know, John McDougall said so loud. How does it, I mean, you don't have to answer this actually. You've got an ongoing complaint.
Police Politics and Controversies in Edmonton
00:00:54
Speaker
You've got an open complaint against the, uh, the commission chair about this and a variety of other things, but man, it has been a quite a month in Edmonton. Let's just call them police politics.
00:01:08
Speaker
It has, it's been a wild 30 plus days and it's been interesting to see the ins and the outs of some real politicking going around around police and some of the good, some of the bad, but it's been an interesting roller coaster so far. Yeah, we are going to get into the details of all of this, obviously, in a minute.
00:01:35
Speaker
I have to say, I don't think city council was ready for what the full brunt of what came to bear on them. Right. And like I said, I've got, I've got the whole timeline. We're going to go through it. But like, do you think city council kind of got rolled here? I think, um, judging by when I, when I was appearing in front of city council, when, uh, we were doing the safe referral kind of task force work.
00:02:04
Speaker
There is definitely a trend and a consensus and an understanding moving forward that things had to change and move in a different direction. I think once these tragic things happened, everything kind of got spun sideways a little bit. And I don't think people were prepared for some of the politicking and some of the
00:02:29
Speaker
inside baseball that was coming their way and some of the experience really showed and I think they got pushed and painted into a corner.
00:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's very fair.
Rob Hul's Background and Roles
00:02:42
Speaker
I mean, a few other probably like just opening caveats, uh, you know, Rob, you were a member of the safer for all task force, which was the group that, that city council struck after the murder of George Floyd in order to provide a report and a series of recommendations in order to kind of improve policing in Edmonton. Uh, you're also a law student and, uh, what else is relevant? Oh yes, you are a part-time advisor to counselor and Stevenson.
00:03:05
Speaker
Is that all, that's all correct? We got all the official... That is all correct, yeah. And we are about a year out of the Safer For All report. We're about two years out, I think, a year or two out from the murder of George Floyd, where we've seen this kind of movement of de-policing, de-tasking, but now we're seeing many municipalities shift back into the usual course of business, which is unfortunate.
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah. And so let's get into it. Let's, let's see how we got to the point where Edmonton and Edmonton city council shifted back to the status quo, which is, you know, continuously rising police budgets. So, uh, so, so here's, here's the timeline, uh, of facts, uh, both around the Justin bone and the murder of Hong Trang and, and Mr. Huang.
00:03:55
Speaker
but also the police budget fight as well. So April 26th, Justin Bone is released from Edmonton remand for break and enter charge. He has put on very strict bail conditions that are meant to keep him in Alberta beach where he is living with a family friend. These conditions prohibit Bone from being in Edmonton unsupervised unless he is going to court seeing his lawyer or getting medical treatment. Those conditions also include prohibitions against
00:04:19
Speaker
uh, being intoxicated. Um, he is ordered to attend a treatment program, but is unable to attend as the program turns out to be full. Although, uh, Justice Minister Tyler Chandra has disputed that, but however, he has offered no, um, no actual details on, even though he's kind of said that's not true. He hasn't actually backed that up in any way. Then on May 15th, bone threatens the family friend, the guarantor that was supervising him in Alberta beach.
00:04:49
Speaker
Demanding money for drugs, this family friend calls in the RCMP and the RCMP pick up Justin Bone and drop him off in Edmonton, at Stony Plain Road and 156th Street, despite this violating his bail conditions.
RCMP's Actions and Jurisdictional Issues
00:05:06
Speaker
The suretor, the guarantor for Bone here, he has been a key source for the CBC in their reporting on this. And in the CBC's original story on this, he called it,
00:05:17
Speaker
A reverse starlight tour. Rob, do you think that's like a fair description of what was done to bone being taken from rural Alberta and then kind of just being plopped in the middle of a big city to just kind of fend for himself? I think, I think that's a pretty close to an accurate description. I think, um, again, with, with, with the RCMP kind of removing either forcibly or
00:05:45
Speaker
or without force, removing him from a place where he's supposed to be, and then taking him somewhere else, where he doesn't have any adequate resources, where he may be unfamiliar with that part of the city. It could be construed as a reverse Starlight tour, but again,
00:06:02
Speaker
Starlight tours are a very dubious thing that police have been known to do and proven to do. It comes from the most clearest example, Neil Stonechild in Saskatchewan, where he basically froze to death from police dropping him off outside of the city.
00:06:22
Speaker
So again, there are very dire circumstances. I think in this instance, there is some comparisons, but it may be kind of a loose application.
00:06:35
Speaker
Yeah, it's not a perfect example because he's not being dropped off in the middle of nowhere to freeze to death. He's being dropped off in the middle of an urban center simply because there is the expectation that he will be able to find shelter and end up at a shelter somehow and somehow find treatment and somehow
00:06:57
Speaker
find help that you would find from being dropped off at 156th Street and Stony Plain Road in West Edmonton. I feel like we need a better word for it, but it's not incorrect, but it's not correct either, you know what I mean? Yeah, and I think that it's, again, for the listeners, it's another clear example of how
00:07:23
Speaker
kind of indigenous people and people within the justice system are tossed around like a jurisdictional football. And I think this is a prime example of some of that jurisdictional kind of infighting happening when the RCMP, whoever very clear jurisdiction in Parkland County,
00:07:46
Speaker
transferred him from that location to the city, placing him within the jurisdictional authority of another police force. But I think there are some very valid questions that continue to be needed, need to be answered, which is how did he get from the remand to Alberta Beach? How did he get to the remand in the first place? When was he charged? What happened? Some of those circumstances could help add more clarity to this process, but I think
00:08:15
Speaker
The real issue is, and we've seen it at commission recently, this issue of jurisdiction and who holds jurisdiction and authority and whether or not there are certain immunities applied when things happen in a certain way.
00:08:32
Speaker
Yeah. So we're back to the timeline now. So on May 15th, the same day that they drop him off in Stony Plain Road, 156th Street, the RCMP inform the Edmonton Police Service that they have dropped Bone off in Edmonton. This is all just, by the way, all of the vast majority of this information comes from the great reporting done by Wallace Snowden and the CBC. Bone ends up crashing at an acquaintance's house.
00:08:56
Speaker
And on the same day, on May 15th, the person in Alberta Beach, who was his bones guarantor, tells EPS that Justin Bone is intoxicated and in violation of his bowel conditions. That message from Bones guarantor is ignored and Bone is simply just free to walk around Edmonton. On May 16th, the day after they drop him off, the RCMP informed Bones probation officer that he's in Edmonton. And then on May 18th,
00:09:24
Speaker
tragically, in two separate incidents, Bone attacks Ban Phuc Hoang and Hong Trang in Chinatown. They would later die of their injuries. You know, a private security guard follows Bone after the attack and calls in the police who apprehend him. And it's worth pointing out that Justin Bone is still in custody and allegations around his murder of not around the murders that he was allegedly involved in have not been proven in court.
00:09:52
Speaker
On May 18th, the very same day of the murders, Edmonton City Council's executive committee debates the police funding formula.
Edmonton's Police Funding Formula Controversy
00:10:01
Speaker
This is an Ivison era relic that was kind of temporarily suspended at the height of the George Floyd stuff. And it was an Ivison era relic where essentially the police budget went up no matter what.
00:10:14
Speaker
Don Iveson was very proud of this at the time that he came up with this. Apparently he came up with this to depoliticize questions around the police budget. Do you remember when this police budget funding formula was brought in, Rob? I remember when there were conversations after the fact, of course, I remember the budget process before.
00:10:39
Speaker
Again, another disclaimer, I used to work for the city of Edmonton and was involved in budget deliberations, budget preparations. I know how onerous that process can be. But again, it's also important that there is an increased transparency when budget packages are brought forward. There was debate at council around the merits of a budget package. So I remember when the Edmonton Police Service had to provide some of these
00:11:06
Speaker
these service packages and justifications for increased funding. And then I remember when the funding formula came in, some of the analysis after the fact, some of the justification for it. When I was with the task force, we looked at the funding formula. We kind of added some critique to it around how it was inflation times
00:11:32
Speaker
plus another inflation factor. Plus population growth. I think it was inflation plus population growth minus efficiency, I think was the formula, right? Plus a police price index kind of aspect. So at the end of the day, it ended up being a 5% increase minus the efficiency factor, which was, we heard recently kind of frozen at 1%. So it was a guaranteed 4% increase year over year.
00:11:59
Speaker
Man, I would love a 4% raise every year. Might even keep up with inflation. Okay, so that's just a bit of context on the police funding formula. So City Council's executive committee gets together, they're talking police funding formula.
00:12:14
Speaker
Uh, there is a narrow three to two vote that the committee essentially votes to recommend to city council that Edmonton police base funding be set at 385 million and that the police funding formula be discontinued. And that, uh, essentially the police department gets treated like every single other department that goes to council during a budget cycle and makes the case for why they need X amount of dollars.
00:12:37
Speaker
It's also worth pointing out that this funding formula is unique to Edmonton and the Edmonton Police Service. No other city department and literally no other police department across Canada gets this deal. You could understand why the police were so keen to keep it guaranteed year over year increases no matter what is a very, very sweet deal.
00:12:58
Speaker
Um, it's also worth pointing out that at this meeting on May 18th, a police commissioner, Jodi Calhoun Stonehouse calls for a counselor as well as police commissioner and Stevenson to be removed from her post on Edmonton police commission because she employs you, Rob, who will, uh, a person who is critical of a known critic of police. Yeah. And, and I've just recently learned that I'm a known critic. Um, when all of this stuff unfolded on the 18th, but, um,
00:13:29
Speaker
Again, having served on the safe overall task force, having been at the forefront of actions of police against myself and my brother, which we talked about, and I talked about at the council and at the task force as well. I think, I think there's an aspect of knowledge that brings, I can bring to the table. And it's unfortunate that that was kind of boiled down to just being some sort of
00:13:58
Speaker
no nothing critic. Yeah, and I don't want to get into the specifics because you have filed a complaint against the police commission and the police commissioners who are involved in what they said about you. But we will include details in the show notes if you want to get into the nitty gritty details of Rob's police commission complaints, but there's a ton of information to get through too, so we're going to keep going.
00:14:23
Speaker
Um, May 20th, Justin Bone is charged with the murders of Hong Trang and Ban Phu Kwang. Uh, on the same day, Chief McPhee is briefed on the matter and he assigns a superintendent to keep track of the case for him.
00:14:39
Speaker
Also, on May 20th, Chief McPhee tells, there's a police commission meeting, and Chief McPhee tells Amazon Police Commission by extension, everyone else, the media, the public, that more officers will be allocated to downtown Chinatown and the 118th Avenue areas. This was after a variety of outcry and meetings about the fact that people wanted essentially more beat cops downtown, that downtown had kind of been depopulated from police service.
00:15:07
Speaker
And so after a lot of hue and cry, more officers, more frontline police officers are allocated to those areas. Downtown Chinatown and 118th Avenues. This is of course done with Chief McPhee saying out loud in the police commission meeting, I want to take a minute to apologize to the citizens of our city because there are areas of our city that also need services that aren't going to get them for a while.
00:15:30
Speaker
Again, this is our totally apolitical police chief just standing up and saying totally apolitical things with regards to how police officers are allocated within the city.
00:15:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I think yesterday or during one of the media scrums following the commission meeting, I think we also learned that May 20th is around the day of or around the day that they learned the RCMP informed the EPS that Bone was in the city on the west side of the city. Oh, no, that was the same day. May 15th. Briefed up to the leadership.
00:16:14
Speaker
Oh, that hasn't been proved yet. I mean, the details of the superintendent and the chief knowing what they knew, we still have, there's very little clarity about what the chief, when the chief of police actually knew that Justin Bone had been dropped off in town by RCMP. That is still, chief of fee has not made that clear, not one bit. He did assign a superintendent to keep track of the case on May 20th, but that is the only kind of detail that we've gotten out of him so far about what he knew and when he knew it.
00:16:46
Speaker
May 24th, City Council meets transit safety, the city's community safety strategy, and a funding formula. Again, for the Edmonton Police Service, they're all on the day's agenda. They don't think they actually get to the funding formula. I think they were talking about these other issues, but Chief McPhee is in attendance. No, no, actually, police funding formula gets debated that day. One of the issues that come up is this $22 million.
00:17:11
Speaker
So it's, I don't want to get into the absolute weeds of this issue, but essentially city council and the police and the police commission all use this, uh, this kind of net operating budget number, which is essentially the envelope of cash that city council directly hands to the police. And that number in 2020, uh, for 2022 was $385 million.
00:17:36
Speaker
However, the entire police budget is much larger than $385 million. It's closer to half a billion dollars. They have a variety of other ways in which they get money. One of those ways was
00:17:51
Speaker
photo radar and due to a variety of decisions made by both city council, but mostly the province photo radar money is way, way down. And so money that had kind of always been spoken for with regards to the police budget that came from photo radar was now gone. And there was a shortfall that needed to be made up. And so the case was being made that we needed to add $22 million to the base police budget front to that net operating budget number in order to bring the police up to, you know, the level that of to which they were accustomed.
00:18:21
Speaker
So that issue kind of gets debated. Also on May 24th, council chambers are packed. Emotions and tensions run high. The families of the murdered men in Chinatown are in attendance and speak directly to city council. Many prominent conservative politicians and former politicians are in attendance.
00:18:47
Speaker
Steven Mendel, Kerry Diot, former PCMLA Steve Young, also a former cop. This, despite it being relatively like improper, not improper, improper is not the right word, uncommon for people to get to just kind of show up and speak to city council. These people show up to city council and speak. And after a brief debate, council votes to immediately direct $300,000 to Chinatown businesses in order to hire private security.
00:19:16
Speaker
This was, again, part of the pressure that's being put on city council with regards to the police budget. Yeah, I think it's key here that people speaking at city council is a misnomer and a once in a million chance for
00:19:42
Speaker
people and the city council proper agenda to carve out time for speakers. Again, it was emphasis that a lot of that is done at committee, that people are invited to speak at committee so that council can move through things with some sort of consistency and speed because the issue has already been debated at length at committee. But in this instance, because of the emotions running high and because of all of the attention around
00:20:09
Speaker
Um, we're on the issue and I think again, some, some inexperience and the, the door was cracked wide open to allow speakers at council, which only, uh, kind of lit the tinderbox that was there around people being emotional about this tragedy, these tragic events. I think, um, it's been a whirlwind. I think I also spoke that day, um, just talking again about how.
00:20:37
Speaker
City Council never in recent history took time to hear from speakers that even though the motions are high, it should have been pushed back to another public hearing or another sort of venue. And unfortunately that didn't happen. And kind of people were put on the spot to make some pretty knee-jerk decisions. And I think that that also compounded this issue where we are today.
00:21:04
Speaker
No, I mean, you're right. What happened at that meeting was relatively unprecedented. City Council is not in the habit of just letting people speak to them because they want to. And granted that, you know, this was a tragedy and these people wanted to be heard. But as we will see with regards to the facts around this matter, like all the facts of the matter we're not in. And, you know, we'll see what comes out in the wash. Also on May 24th,
00:21:32
Speaker
Janice Erwin, who is the MLA who represents the area, who represents Chinatown, provincially, asks in the legislature for more provincial support for Chinatown. Minister of Justice Tyler Sandro responds by pointing at Edmonton City Council and saying that, just saying a bunch of bullshit, essentially, that the area was made more unsafe by Council's cut.
00:21:54
Speaker
of $22 million in photo radar revenue, a cut that was one, not real, and two, the cut came from the province, or it was due to provincial decisions. Shander also says that those two residents, the two people who were tragically murdered were killed with a gun. They weren't killed with a gun. He just essentially embarrasses himself talking about this matter, a thing that will actually will continue to happen as Tyler Shander pops up in and out throughout the timeline.
00:22:23
Speaker
Um, May 25th, mayor average. So he releases a blog post and where he explains, he goes into some detail actually, where he, uh, explains why the city should kind of do away with the current police funding formula. He doesn't seem to be a fan.
00:22:35
Speaker
Also on May 25th, Justice Minister Tyler Chandro and Chief Dale McPhee speak together at a press conference at Edmonton Police, not headquarters, not downtown headquarters, but like the office where the chief works.
Justice Minister's Demand for Public Safety Plan
00:22:49
Speaker
I can't remember the HSBC building, I think. Where they announced, like it's a nothing burger press conference. It's like a few hundred thousand dollars for like crime stoppers. But it is an opportunity for the chief and Tyler Chandro to have some FaceTime together, perhaps discuss things.
00:23:05
Speaker
Chandra was also asked about his incorrect statements in the legislature and is embarrassed again by the media. This was another press conference and another media availability where we're a week on from the murders and the fact that Justin Bone was dropped off in town by the RCMP is still not being disclosed by the police.
00:23:30
Speaker
The next day, so the day after May 26th, after Shandro and Dale McPhee do their little Nothing Burger press conference together, Tyler Shandro invokes section 30-1 of the police act directing the city of Edmonton to develop a public safety plan and have it ready for him in two weeks.
00:23:49
Speaker
Again, relatively unprecedented. No one can really recall that any time this section has ever been invoked. Again, pretty clearly just invoked for political reasons. This is part of the pressure being put on city council in order for city council to increase the police budget. Would you agree with that statement, Rob?
00:24:09
Speaker
Well, I think that plays a role. I think also, and you touched on it a little bit, like these press conferences and announcements were just so embarrassing and uncomfortable. And to see the kind of floundering around with the questions being asked and having the facts wrong and
00:24:34
Speaker
And I think there was the putting, putting the, the staff within the ministry on the spot around whether or not he was briefed appropriately or other things like that. I think put a lot of, a lot of egg on people's faces. And when, when people like that, again, Chandra is a lawyer.
00:24:54
Speaker
When they get embarrassed to a degree like that, it warrants some sort of response to take the heat off. And I think that's where you've seen this kind of Section 30 invocation happen because we hadn't seen any previous ministers do it, even though previous ministers were even stopped by Edmonton Police and other things like that.
00:25:19
Speaker
who had the most valid opportunity to invoke that section, not to take that type of action. But I think those people also weren't embarrassed to the degree that Chandra was. And I think a little bit of ego came into this situation at that point.
00:25:37
Speaker
Yeah, it wasn't invoked when it was revealed that Lethbridge cops were spying on a cabinet minister, but it was invoked when Tyler Chandra got fucking owned in a press conference by a member of the media. The same day, May 26th, a gaggle of UCP, of Calgary-based UCP cabinet ministers, Josephine Pahn, Mike Ellis, and Jason LaJuan toured Chinatown doing photo ops, making very concerned-looking listening faces.
00:26:03
Speaker
And one of the sites that they do tour is actually the place where Trang and Huang were murdered, somewhat ghoulishly. The next day after Chandra invokes the police act, City Council meets and they are given an update by City Manager Andre Korbold on the efforts to comply with Chandra's letter. Spoiler alert, two weeks from now, City Council submits this letter and it's just a laundry list of all the things that they're doing.
00:26:31
Speaker
But that's neither here nor there. On the same day city council is meeting, they debate transit safety. They debate a variety of other kind of like police adjacent things. Chief McPhee is in attendance, again, answering questions. You know, he again has the opportunity to tell council, to tell the media, to tell the public that the RCMP dropped bone off
00:26:54
Speaker
in Edmonton in violation of his bail conditions. Again, that doesn't happen. He does, curiously though, on May 27th, Chief, if he does hint at this potential,
00:27:11
Speaker
this potential event happening, where he says, he tells counsel, quote, there needs to be a parallel system, looking at what's coming into Edmonton with the nations and some of our surrounding communities, because let's face it, we are the gateway to the north. Does that strike you as perhaps very oddly specific, Rob, considering what we later learned about Justin Bone being dropped off in Edmonton?
00:27:33
Speaker
It is, it's very coincidental to have some sort of those types of talking points enter into the lexicon of people speaking at council, I think, and having watched.
00:27:49
Speaker
a lot of the lead up to that as well. I remember there being sprinkles of answers from staff and other people around this issue of people coming into the city. Not saying that people were fully aware that this was exactly the circumstance, but again, it also speaks to a lot of this rhetoric and
00:28:11
Speaker
and anti-Indigenous kind of perspectives around no good Indians causing trouble when they come into the city. We saw most recently as well with some of the conversation up in the Fort McMurray area and the municipality of Wood Buffalo, one of their counselors being on the hot seat because that is exactly what he said. I think it's also a little bit kind of disheartening to hear that type of language, having been a person from the North that moved to Edmonton.
00:28:41
Speaker
knowing that we're still seen as these no good troublemakers, it doesn't say well with me either. Oh, I mean, it's really incredible that he said this out loud. I mean, considering the history here, like you go back to Frank Oliver and 120 fucking years ago saying exactly the same fucking thing to justify, oh yeah, by the way, that's why we got to steal all these all this fucking indigenous land, by the way, because they're no good troublemakers that come into town and cause trouble for for our women folk or whatever. Right.
00:29:10
Speaker
The next day, May 28th, Chief Dale McPhee attends the rally for safety in Chinatown, held outside of City Hall and organized by, in part by the Chinatown Business Association. Again, he does not tell the people who are assembled, the public or the media about the fact that the RCMP dropped bone off in Edmonton.
00:29:31
Speaker
May 31st, an emergency meeting with the provincial government ministers is called in a letter signed by representatives from the Chinese Benevolent Association and the Chinatown and Area Business Association. And it is held at the Chinatown Multicultural Center. According to the flyer, this meeting was attended by Chandra, but also many other UCP ministers, including Casey Madew, Josephine Pawn, Prasad Panda, Mike Ellis, Jason Milan, and Jeremy Nixon.
00:29:57
Speaker
a real murderer's row of the UCP brain trust there. June 3, police commissioner Ashvin Singh writes a letter to Mayor Sohe demanding that Councillor Anne Stevenson be removed from the police commission due to vague charges of political interference into a police investigation.
00:30:17
Speaker
What is the police investigation in question, you might ask? It is an investigation, apparently, of me, Duncan Kinney. An Edmonton Police Commissioner said on Edmonton Police Commission letterhead that I am under investigation. We sought to clarify what the hell he was talking about. And he refused. We reached out to the Edmonton Police. They appear similarly confused.
00:30:46
Speaker
Um, we have now filed, filed a complaint against Ashwin saying to the commission about this, uh, letter because not only he didn't just write the letter, uh, this letter also somehow magically, we don't yet know how that we hope to find out for, uh, in further investigation. And there's that word again, uh, how exactly this letter came to be in possession of at least two members of the Edmonton media.
00:31:08
Speaker
So yeah, that's another fun thing. There are a couple of police commissioners who seem to really want Anne Stevenson off of the Edmonton Police Commission for some reason. I won't ask you to speculate on that given that I know your relationship with Anne, but it certainly is notable and I am noting it. The following Monday, June 6th, Mayor Sohey's office issues a statement saying he has no jurisdiction to investigate the conduct of councillors or police commissioners.
00:31:35
Speaker
just as an aside, the letter, I mean, both the letter and, uh, Jodie Calhoun Stonehouse's call for, uh, Stevenson to be removed, just like in council chambers are both like kind of laughable efforts to have Stevenson removed. Like city council is not going to interrupt the meeting to like take a vote on whether to remove a sitting counselor from police commission and Ashven Singh writing the letter to mayor. So, so he's saying,
00:32:01
Speaker
get rid of her, she's done something vaguely bad that I can't be specific about which is so bad that you have to remove her. Again, the mayor can't just snap his fingers and remove a counselor from commission. A majority of counselors would have to get together in a council meeting and vote to remove her, which is a pretty high bar. Yeah, and I think there's also, if I recall in the letter, some sort of reference to
00:32:30
Speaker
an obligation of some sort, whether it be a legal obligation as a lawyer or professional obligation. Obligated by the law society or something. Yeah, I think that's a little bit of a stretch as well because my understanding is that he's not legal counsel for the commission. He's a commissioner, he sits on the commission. So there's a separation there between
00:32:57
Speaker
duties and authorities and obligations. And I think it is just a poorly written letter as well. The letter is hard to understand. I have read it many times and I struggled to understand who he is referring to at various points within the letter, trying to put myself into his mind, trying to understand the intention of his words, which is never a good sign when you're trying to read something.
00:33:26
Speaker
The other thing that is revealed in the course of this letter and then us getting together to file a complaint was, which is that for nearly six months, while he was sitting on commission Ashvin Singh worked at Denton's, which is the law firm that also represents, I believe the chief and Edmonton police officers and disciplinary hearings, and somehow this
00:33:47
Speaker
was decided at some point that this was not a conflict of interest, though TBD, maybe it will be, maybe it comes out in the wash that that was improper. I mean, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not an expert on this issue, but it certainly was a topic of discussion on the internet after it was revealed. The next day after Mayor Sohe says, what do you want me to do about it?
00:34:09
Speaker
city council gets together and this is the whole city council. This is an executive committee. Now, Edmonton and city council gets together and figure out what the hell they're going to do on the police funding formula. And by the end of the day, it is a resounding success for the Edmonton police and their UCB allies.
00:34:26
Speaker
Edmonton votes to continue using the police funding formula, though it will be revised some unspecified way in the future. The base police budget, that net operating, that goes up $22 million. That goes up from $385 million to $407 million. Again, an unqualified success.
00:34:46
Speaker
for the police getting exactly what they wanted out of City Council with respect to those two items. Very oddly, Chief Dale McPhee is not in attendance and his representative who was there essentially ran away from media like
00:34:59
Speaker
Uh, I was a scrumming a city counselor at the time and I, um, I didn't care to speak to that guy. I didn't think I was going to get anything useful, anything. And I'm currently considering I'm currently blackballed. It was just not a high priority, but I saw the, like the, the other media folks, like with cameras on their shoulders, like high tail it after the police as they kind of like scurried outside of the building. And I caught up with them afterwards and there was like, did you get ahold of them? And they were like, nah, they wouldn't say anything. So, um, this is also like,
00:35:28
Speaker
Over, over 20 days since Jess and Bowen was dropped in the city and, and close to 20 days since the actual conversation on police funding got started. June 7th is 20 days from May 18th, which is the day, both the day of the murders.
00:35:43
Speaker
And the, the day that executive committee first started the police funding formula debate. So yeah, we are 20 days is it is a 20 day process essentially between those two events, the police funding formula debate starting and the murders happening at the same time to the police getting everything they want with respect to their budget asks. Uh, also worth pointing out with this, I don't have a bunch of time to spend on this, but it's worth pointing out to that.
00:36:05
Speaker
Edmonton City Council essentially backdoors in like another loitering bylaw after they got rid of one last year, after they found that the existing loitering bylaw was like super racist and bad.
00:36:17
Speaker
You know, June 9th, Edmonton City Council releases the public safety plan that Tyler Shandrow had demanded. Again, this plan is a bunch of bullshit that they're already doing. Jason Kenney and Shandrow both take a fucking victory lap after they get this plan. You know, Kenney says, I'm glad to see that Edmonton has begun to listen to his citizens. Shandrow says, I'm encouraged by the constructive discussions I've had with Mayor Sohi and the recent steps municipal officials have taken to improve public safety for Edmontonians. Again, just like, just really gross victory lap shit.
00:36:46
Speaker
And then the following day, June 10th, the CBC publishes an investigation by journalist Wallace Snowden into the fact that the RCMP had dumped Justin Bone unsupervised in the city in violation of his bail conditions. That the EPS, originally it was reported that not only were the EPS aware of this breach, but also that they had contacted Justin Bone and decided to not do anything about it.
00:37:13
Speaker
Uh, however, as we will find out that, uh, that, that, that is later revised that statement has changed their story changes.
CBC Investigation on RCMP's Role
00:37:23
Speaker
Uh, but yeah, June 10th, this is a big day. This is a big story. What were your thoughts after you kind of learned that RCMP had dumped bone into the city. And at the time the EPS had been in contact with bone and hadn't done anything about him.
00:37:40
Speaker
Well, I think like many other readers, I think first of all, fantastic reporting, fantastic factual follow-up. The article reads great. It has a lot of substance to it and very fact specific on this is what we know occurred and you can't really question a lot of those things in there. And I think like a lot of other Edmontonians and people with connections to the city, a real
00:38:08
Speaker
kind of upset in my stomach around how all of this tragedy could have been avoided and how we really missed an opportunity here and how really we all got played to a degree and a lot of politicking.
00:38:31
Speaker
uh, happened that, that people weren't, uh, in the know. So, um, I think my reaction was the same as a lot of people who, who read it and off the top, just disbelief that this could, that this could have happened. Not only disbelief that this happened, but disbelief that it was kept from us, right? Like in the context of a police budget fight that had gotten so acrimonious that it involved the province that saw police commissioners lobbying, you know, pretty wild accusations and other police commissioners.
00:39:01
Speaker
that this incredibly important information, that Justin Bone wasn't just some random street person or unhoused person who was having an episode and unfortunately tragically killed two people in Chinatown, which was kind of how it was originally framed, that this was a case where this person had been transported from 70 kilometers outside of Edmonton to Edmonton.
00:39:30
Speaker
by another police service in clear violation of bail conditions that said he can't be an Edmonton unsupervised. That is relevant information that would have dramatically changed the tone and tenor of the conversation around these murders during a budget fight that saw the police get exactly what they fucking wanted.
00:39:54
Speaker
And yeah, I was, when I first read this, I was furious that this information that it took the CBC talking to the cert or like the guarantor is because that's clearly the source for all this information. Uh, you know, so I'm so grateful that that person came forward because without that person, Edmonton police never would have told us. Yeah. And I think, and I think that's a valid kind of criticism and question around when exactly
00:40:24
Speaker
Without this reporting, were, were people going to know when, when exactly was city council going to know? And in most instances it's when court starts and whether or not there's a publication ban on the court process, some of the facts may start to leak out, but that's usually two years later, two years later in court, maybe we learned that, right? Yeah.
00:40:49
Speaker
though I imagine there would be efforts made to put a publication ban on that information. But that's obviously speculative. Okay, so June 10th, the report comes out. Everyone is like, what the fuck? And then six days later, June 16th, yesterday, there's an Edmonton Police Commission meeting, another one. At the police commission meeting, Chief McPhee changes his story.
00:41:15
Speaker
and says that it was a communications error that led to the EPS telling the media that they had been in contact with Bone prior to the murders. During that commission meeting, he also makes great efforts to say that, oh no, we couldn't possibly have taken Justin Bone off the streets because he was in violation of his bail conditions for, you know, pick a reason. He kind of went through a bunch, but his, his kind of biggest point was that because the RCMP had brought him into town, they had kind of unilaterally changed his bail conditions.
00:41:44
Speaker
I'm not an expert on this matter. I mean, you're probably not either, but whether that is the case or not, that excuse was quickly blown up again by the excellent reporting at the CBC, who a few hours after that police commission closed, released a story that said essentially where Bones, a guarantor, says that he told the EPS that Bone was intoxicated and in violation of his bail conditions.
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm not a lawyer by any means. I am going through the process of becoming a trained legal professional and a lawyer.
00:42:23
Speaker
But I had to have an understanding on how jurisdiction works. There's also some Twitter kind of people talking about, well, that would have been entrapment and all these other things. Maybe, maybe not. I guess we'll never know because no action was taken whatsoever to talk to Bone, to stop him. No, there was no interjections, even though he's got according to the articles,
00:42:52
Speaker
a long extensive criminal history, numerous run-ins with different police forces, numerous arrests with different police forces. He's got CPIC information out there. There are notices around him being in the city, yet there is a lack of action here that could have, and again, this is just pie in the sky, could have avoided the tragic outcome that we know today has happened due to this
00:43:21
Speaker
drama, tragedy of errors, whatever you want to call it.
Police Withholding Information During Budget Debate
00:43:26
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's worthwhile for me to state out loud why this is important and why the details around this are so important and why the police is
00:43:35
Speaker
furious attempts to absolve themselves of all responsibility are important. I will be upfront. I am a police and prison abolitionist. I do not want cops picking people up on rinky dink bail violations and putting them into prison whenever they fucking feel like, which is essentially the system we have now, though there has been some improvement on that file recently due to recent court decisions.
00:43:58
Speaker
When police stand up and put so much pressure, so much political pressure on city council in order to get a $22 million increase in their budget, in order to get a police funding formula that always increases their budget, when, and then it comes out that they deliberately withheld information where, Oh, it turns out they could have taken him off the streets in advance of this murder.
00:44:21
Speaker
Well, then why the fuck do we need more money for police then? You know, like it's so cynical. It's so nuts. I'm just going to say it. It's so evil to know that this person was dropped off in town, that that information would have been massively impacted the discourse around these murders and that it didn't come out from the police.
00:44:42
Speaker
that it had to come out through the media is why the story is important and it's evidence that the trust between the public and by extension the city council has with this police chief is broken.
00:44:58
Speaker
And I don't know what he would think. And I think we've seen other examples across the country, especially from Toronto with the murders in the village, I think it was, the LGBTQ2S plus community was being preyed upon and police had information that could have possibly saved some lives or raised awareness around serial killings that were happening.
00:45:28
Speaker
did not, I think it raises more questions around when people know things and whether or not action should be taken to help tragedies be avoided.
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah. And like one of the reasons why it's so frustrating is because these, these murders were essentially leveraged to kill the safer for all report, right? Like the most important recommendation in the safer for all report was freeze the police budget and put all future increases into the community, into mental health supports, into housing, into addiction supports. That's all fucking gone now that like is, I asked Aaron Rutherford, the counselor,
00:46:11
Speaker
You know, the counselor who actually like changed her mind and was like, actually police funding formulas are good now from after originally saying no to them. I asked her, is safer for all dead? And she waffled and she didn't answer the question. And, but like they got, they got rolled. They threatened the police budget just a tiny little bit and a massive, massive reaction was organized by the police and conservative politicians to try and increase the budget. And now.
00:46:40
Speaker
They got it. They got what they wanted. It fucking worked. Yeah. And I think just, and just as kind of one last point, just on this whole timeline thing, my, my, my opinions, my, my comments, they don't matter. Duncan, I'm sorry, but your comments and opinions don't matter. Um, but the families that were impacted by this, that's whose opinions and feelings and emotions really matter. And we've seen it out.
00:47:10
Speaker
through the articles and in the media and how there is an essence of betrayal in their community and in their families, and they have every right to feel that way. And I think that's the most salient example of the failings of this entire process here. Yeah. Thank you for bringing it back to that too. I mean, the people, those loved ones and their families are gone. They're gone forever.
00:47:37
Speaker
It's, you know, Christina Trang was at the police commission meeting yesterday. She spoke to the media. I mean, we'll put a link to our story in the show notes. Like she says, like, she doesn't know what to feel. Like she's still grieving the death of her father. And, you know, there was another member of the Chinatown community, Jordan Hahn, who's a documentary filmmaker and a photographer. And he was like, he's saying exactly what you were saying, right? Like,
00:48:03
Speaker
He feels that he was misled and he doesn't know who to trust. And this question of trust, I think is going to dog chief McPhee and this police commission, uh, forever, really until there's wholesale changes or until someone accepts responsibility because, you know, what did you know? And when did you know it that that question has still not been answered.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's, that's why, uh, again, the call from the mayor, the call from, um, other legal professionals and leaders in the community around some sort of inquiry, um, should be followed through and should happen because these are the kind of questions that need the most salient answers about when people were in the know and what could have been done to avoid, uh, this outcome. Yeah. Like.
00:48:55
Speaker
Uh, kind of buried in all of the, the noise around, you know, the changing story of chief McPhee that, that was then kind of immediately blown up by the CBC. Uh, was the fact that the police commission meeting yet met yesterday and they did not discuss an inquiry at all, despite the fact that mayor emergied. So he wrote a letter saying, please consider an inquiry. They were like, did not even come up. Wasn't mentioned. Will there be an inquiry? I, I don't imagine chief if he wants one.
00:49:24
Speaker
And he seems to get what he wants when it comes to the city council. So it is, uh, it's very frustrating. I was definitely after the meeting yesterday, I was like stunned really that like chief McPhee would, would go the route that he, that he went saying, throwing some like communication staffer under the bus.
00:49:49
Speaker
And then a few hours later, when, when the CBC report came out, I was stunned again. I was like, wow, that fucking excuse lasted like three hours. Uh, you know, he's kind of caught in a web right now and it's, it's, it's hard for him to get out because. I mean, at the end of the day, when, when did you know that the RCMP dropped them off in town? You know, like that's the question that he still hasn't answered.
00:50:18
Speaker
Yeah, and I think in the commission meeting, we had some kind of some glimpses at how the sequence of events happened, how people were in the know when they knew. We heard reference to CPIC and other systems and phone calls logged and all these other things. So we knew that there was this thread of information flowing into Edmonton informing people that this guy was here and that
00:50:48
Speaker
whether or not he was intoxicated, whether or not we know that he had made threats to someone, violent threats. Again, with a history of addictions and usage, these types of groups of people are unstable and in need of diversion efforts and non-police intervention in order to save their lives and the lives of others. But also in some instances,
00:51:17
Speaker
They need direct intervention in that moment to stop them from doing things that could have negative consequences. And we know that there's this thread here that shows that people were in the know, but chose maybe not to act. I have to update the timeline too, because the day after Wallace Snowden's original story came out, Tyler Shandrow put out a statement saying, oh, yeah, that's wrong, actually, with the CBC saying that there was
00:51:47
Speaker
The treatment center was full. Actually, he got an offer to go to it. There was one made available to him. And then a journalist followed up with Chandra's office to be like, okay, like which one and when and how is he gonna get there? And like, how real was this offer? And no further details have been forthcoming from Tyler Chandra with regards to this treatment center. And, you know, Christina Trang, you know, Hung Trang's eldest daughter in the media yesterday was like,
00:52:15
Speaker
Yeah, I would love, I would love some more details of that treatment center. Uh, you know, could you, could you supply those? And, uh, he is so far not been forthcoming. Um, so, uh, yeah, that is, that
City Council's Potential Actions
00:52:37
Speaker
is where we're at. I think there's one last thing that I want to talk about with you, Robin, and that is where does city council go from here?
00:52:47
Speaker
I don't know how they're feeling. I don't know what's going through their heads, but if I was them, I would feel pretty foolish. And you know, the, the budget issue has not been solved, right? The funding formula details are still TBD and the budget fight just has essentially now just is just going to come back in the fall.
00:53:18
Speaker
Where do you think the kind of police budget debate is going to, what do you think it's going to sound and feel like in a few short months?
00:53:31
Speaker
I think before, before we even get, uh, to the fall, there needs to be a real, a real push before any kind of summer break or anything like that. A push for like a greater transparency understanding of what exactly happened. And, and we've heard some of the, even at commission yesterday, some ink linings, uh, kind of corrections, even though they weren't corrections, um,
00:54:01
Speaker
There's still a lot of misinformation and inaccurate facts being kind of thrown out there. So counsel should be pushing for some clarification around that first and foremost, and to find out what exactly happened and using their powers and their jurisdiction to explore any other remedies. I don't know if it's an audit. I don't know if it's something like that.
00:54:27
Speaker
It definitely needs to reopen the conversation on finding out exactly what happened and how it happened and who knew what, when, because that is a paramount right now. And I think in the fall, it opens up another huge issue around, we're going to get into the real nitty gritty around money because from the articles that I'm reading, we're looking at at least an 8% tax increase.
00:54:55
Speaker
You tack on more funding for police. You're looking at a 10, 12, 15% property tax increase in the fall, just because of inflation and other things that are happening. Are Edmontonians ready for that? And then if they're not ready to support that type of increase, then you're looking at a real attrition situation. But hanging over everyone's head will be this conversation around police and how
00:55:25
Speaker
they were duped into covering the province's shortfall as well. Yeah. One low key thing that really affects police budgets is salaries. 81% of the police budget goes to salaries and the Edmonton Police Association has not had a collective agreement with the city of Edmonton since 2020. Those negotiations are ongoing.
00:55:50
Speaker
And we have covered kind of like the EPA's labor negotiations with the city in the past, as well as just how much, how well paid Edmonton police officers are even compared to their own colleagues, you know, relatively speaking in other parts of the province. And, you know, in 2019 and 2020, bus drivers and inside workers and outside workers took zeros. Two years, two years of zeros.
00:56:17
Speaker
Edmonton Police got wage increases in that same time. Probably time for the Edmonton Police Association to take a zero or two. The last final thing I want to close out on is
00:56:31
Speaker
In the United States, prosecutors have what are called Brady lists or Jiglio lists, and it's pretty simple stuff. It's a list that prosecutors keep of cops who they can no longer trust, ones who have lied on the stand or otherwise been deceitful or otherwise just are of no use, and it can actively hurt the prosecutor's ability to get a conviction. These cops' credibility is so shot that the prosecutors can't risk having them on the stands. And when this happens,
00:57:01
Speaker
This is the end of a cop's career, right? They're called death letters. Why are you a cop if you can't even convict criminals anymore? And I would argue that Chief McPhee has just entered, you know, kind of Brady, Giglio, death letter territory. I do not see how the public or city council can trust
00:57:25
Speaker
Chief McPhee going forward. And if you can't trust what your chief of police says, why trust what any police officer says? And in the context of a budget fight where this guy is running a near half billion dollar organization that gets a massive envelope of money from the city every year, why would counsel sit down with this guy? I don't know if counsel has it in him.
00:57:55
Speaker
to do the things that would be necessary to get rid of Chief McPhee. And honestly, that would probably provoke a pretty big reaction from the province who, as we have seen, loved to meddle in this shit. But it seems untenable, and that the relationship between City Council and Chief McPhee is pretty broken.
00:58:19
Speaker
And I don't have a nice way to wrap this up, but do you have any kind of comments or rifts on that or anything else before we get out of here, Rob? I would just with the caveat that one of the last actions of the previous city council was to provide an extension to his contract.
00:58:40
Speaker
I think it's another four years, three or four years or something to that effect. So that's something that this council has also inherited. But I think in general, we're seeing a movement and a conversation at Alberta, at least around questioning the actions and the history of people. A fantastic resource has gone live, the police misconduct database, the Alberta police misconduct database, which
00:59:09
Speaker
People of the public can go on there and search complaints and court documents and court processes to see how officers behave, some of the complaints that have been brought forward, how flawed the complaint system is around dealing with some of these violations and then judge for themselves. But I think hopefully this conversation continues into the fall.
00:59:36
Speaker
And when we're talking about dollars and cents and how much of an impact some of these increases are going to have, maybe council will do some reconsideration and maybe it's also an opportunity to put in some actual metrics and things founded on performance as opposed just to an ever escalating pile of money, which it was before. I will not comment on.
01:00:05
Speaker
the chief in particular. Um, so I have no comment on him as an individual. No worries. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Rob. Uh, what's the best way for people to follow along with, uh, what you're saying, what you're doing. I'm still on Twitter. I'm, uh, I'm there tweeting. I think I have about 1400 followers now. Um, I am very much in touch with what's happening in empty. I try to keep up to base with that.
01:00:34
Speaker
I'm also still working with the Yellowhead Institute. I am also still dabbling in some law stuff because I am in law school right now, but Twitter is the best place to follow me and find out what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. Hey Rob, we'll put that in the show notes in the show description. Rob, thanks so much for coming on folks. Just a quick note at the end here. Thanks for getting all the way to the end of this. I always appreciate the people who listen to the end.
01:01:04
Speaker
The, uh, you know, if you get to hear, you know, what we're doing, we're going to, we're going to ask you for money. And just a quick note on money. Uh, we did put out a call for donors recently recurring monthly donors, which are the kind of best way to support us and the work that we do. Um, you know, we were blown away by the support that we got. And. You know, it does mean that it looks very likely that Jim and I will be back to full-time hours and full-time work, hopefully soon. Uh,
01:01:33
Speaker
But we're not quite there yet. And so if you've been sitting on the fence or if you've heard these calls and you have not yet, uh, you know, become a recurring monthly donor, please, there's a link in the show notes. Uh, if you just go to the progress report.ca, there's a very slash patrons on the top and the level navigation bar, join the now more than 500 people who help keep this independent media project going, doing work that no other organization does. We are scrappy. We are weird. We have our flaws, but I think that.
01:02:03
Speaker
progress report feels very important. Niche does work that no one else will do. So thank you to the people who have donated. If you are considering it, please do so. If you need to get a hold of me, I'm very easy to get a hold of. Also, if you want to donate another way, you can donate by e-transfer.
01:02:22
Speaker
mail and stuff. You can just contact me and I can give you those details. I am on email. You can reach me via email at Duncan K at progress, Alberta.ca. You can reach my Twitter at at Duncan Kinney. Thanks so much to Jim Story for editing this podcast. Thank you to Cosmic Family Communist for our theme. Thank you for listening and goodbye.