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38 Rosie Wilby | Non-Fiction Author, Comedian and Podcaster
190 Plays4 years ago
Non-fiction author, comedian and podcaster, Rosie Wilby, the Breakup Queen herself, joins us to share her experience across many different mediums. We find out how her latest book, The Breakup Monologues, came out of her podcast of the same name and her first book, Is Monogamy Dead?, grew out of one of her stand up shows. Rosie tells us all about her storytelling philosophy, inspirations and her process of developing an idea across multiple platforms to fully realise it.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:02
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:03
Speaker
These are your notes about what we're going to say.
00:00:06
Speaker
What does it say?
00:00:06
Speaker
I thought it would be a good... I didn't even get the idea.
00:00:12
Speaker
Maybe I can just ask you the question.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going well.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going really well.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:24
Speaker
Well, welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:26
Speaker
It's been a while for me, hasn't it, Jamie?
00:00:29
Speaker
It has been a while.
00:00:30
Speaker
We've had, Naomi's been filling in.
00:00:32
Speaker
She's done a great job, but Emma's back.
00:00:34
Speaker
She did really well.
00:00:35
Speaker
I'm back.
00:00:36
Speaker
Jamie's here.
00:00:37
Speaker
He's back.
00:00:37
Speaker
He's always here.
00:00:38
Speaker
So that's nice.
00:00:40
Speaker
Can't get rid of me.
Rosie's Work on Breakups
00:00:41
Speaker
And in today's episode, very excited to be joined by comedian, podcaster, author, and...
00:00:49
Speaker
breakup royalty Rosie Wilby welcome to the show Rosie oh thank you very much are you referring to my nickname as the queen of breakups the queen of breakups herself here she is it's it's a strange kind of accolade isn't it like does it mean I'm really good at breakups or really bad at relationship choices in the first place well I feel like you should answer that question yourself really
00:01:14
Speaker
Well, yes, I think, well, it comes from the fact, of course, that I have been researching relationships and more particularly breakups for a number of years for my podcast, The Breakup Monologues, and my book, which now has the same title, and also the subtitle, The Unexpected Joy of Heartbreak.
00:01:34
Speaker
So we might get on to the sort of good aspect of a breakup if you can believe that there is one, but I
Narrative Non-Fiction and Science
00:01:41
Speaker
do think that there is.
00:01:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:42
Speaker
Definitely.
00:01:42
Speaker
I agree with you, Rosie.
00:01:43
Speaker
There definitely is.
00:01:44
Speaker
There's a positive in everything, I feel.
00:01:47
Speaker
And John, your book came out on the 27th of May this year.
00:01:50
Speaker
That's right.
00:01:52
Speaker
Which is basically an account of your relationship.
00:01:58
Speaker
some sort of observations.
00:02:01
Speaker
Yeah, no, what I've done with both of my books, because I had another book a few years ago called Is Monogamy Dead, which was also based on one of my comedy shows that I toured around the UK and taken to Edinburgh Fringe and around the world a little bit.
00:02:16
Speaker
But what I've done with both of my books is I would describe them as narrative nonfiction in they combine a personal story about my character
00:02:26
Speaker
journey, my arc of learning and personal growth.
00:02:30
Speaker
And they combine that with some real science and psychology and other people's stories, particularly, obviously, with the new book.
00:02:38
Speaker
There are lots of other people's breakup stories, funny stories, dramatic or bizarre stories that perhaps illustrate a point about how there could be a good side to breakups eventually once the dust has settled or
00:02:51
Speaker
about how awful we might feel in that initial kind of wave of grief and sadness after a breakup.
00:02:59
Speaker
So yeah, I really do like to put a very personal spin on the kind of science of how something works.
00:03:06
Speaker
For example,
00:03:08
Speaker
one of the early chapters in the new book sees me going off to visit a sex lab.
Sex Lab Experiment Experience
00:03:14
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:03:15
Speaker
A lab.
00:03:16
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:17
Speaker
So basically this was an experiment they were doing at the University of Essex.
00:03:22
Speaker
And so they were putting people into like a little sort of sealed booth and you are watching people
00:03:31
Speaker
erotic images shall we say and you are having your arousal measured and things like your pupil dilation as well and you're also reporting on your arousal but the funny thing about this experiment is that the control clip that you're shown in between the erotic images is a David Attenborough nature documentary well that's brilliant was that deemed the least erotic thing yeah that's supposed to calm you down apparently yeah
00:03:58
Speaker
That is so good.
00:03:59
Speaker
That is supposed to calm you down after all of the excitement.
00:04:05
Speaker
What unit do they measure arousal in?
00:04:09
Speaker
Actually, yeah, that's a good point.
00:04:13
Speaker
I was shown some little graphs of my arousal.
00:04:16
Speaker
When I say little, I do mean little because he had to zoom in.
00:04:20
Speaker
I'm not necessarily that aroused by sitting in a strange little cramped booth watching weird erotic images of complete strangers.
00:04:30
Speaker
What?
00:04:31
Speaker
You mean you're not?
00:04:33
Speaker
No.
00:04:33
Speaker
Everyone's got their kink, you know.
00:04:36
Speaker
I know, exactly.
00:04:37
Speaker
I don't know.
00:04:38
Speaker
I was more kind of concerned about, you know, the fact that there was a guitar leaning against the window in the corner of the shot, you know.
00:04:46
Speaker
I thought, oh, you know, that looks like a nice guitar and it looks a bit precariously leaning.
00:04:53
Speaker
That's exciting.
00:04:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:56
Speaker
So basically I put myself into some of these experiments so that you don't have to.
00:05:01
Speaker
You can learn from my participating in very weird experiences.
00:05:07
Speaker
And in the first book as well, I do some experiments at...
00:05:12
Speaker
with a researcher that I know based at King's College London, looking into the origins of our sexual orientation.
Podcast Variety and Modern Breakup Terms
00:05:19
Speaker
And we do all these tests in sort of map reading and memory and word fluency and all of these kind of things, which is really, really interesting because it does seem that gay people and straight people have certain different aptitudes and there's some kind of suggestion about whether
00:05:41
Speaker
the parts of the brain that shape our sexual orientation might start to develop in our early stages of development in the womb.
00:05:49
Speaker
That's so interesting.
00:05:51
Speaker
That is really interesting.
00:05:53
Speaker
And so obviously a lot of, quite a lot of research went in to you, not only writing your book, but to start your podcast as well.
00:06:02
Speaker
Oh, definitely.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:03
Speaker
I mean, it's a real mix because obviously there are lots of episodes of the podcast that are myself with fellow comedians just having a really good time and having a good laugh.
00:06:11
Speaker
But then there are episodes that have a lot of kind of science content and psychology and relationship therapists and academics and really thinking about the evolutionary anthropology behind how we conduct our relationships.
00:06:26
Speaker
But, you know, I like to combine that with a bit of fun.
00:06:29
Speaker
I mean, I always say that I...
00:06:31
Speaker
started researching breakups when I got dumped by email and I did feel a bit better once I corrected her spelling.
00:06:42
Speaker
Oh, no, that's not okay.
00:06:45
Speaker
No.
00:06:45
Speaker
Well, the thing is, you know, now we have this whole culture of ghosting, breadcrumbing, submarining.
00:06:51
Speaker
There's this whole new lexicon of breakups.
00:06:52
Speaker
I've not even heard of some of those.
00:06:53
Speaker
And there's a whole chapter of the book unpacking these terms.
Transition from Musician to Writer
00:06:58
Speaker
And so, yeah, there's all these kind of new behaviours, which is so interesting.
00:07:02
Speaker
My favourite one is, and this does have a slight literary twist, it's marleying, which is a variation on ghosting, but you just pop up again at Christmas.
00:07:12
Speaker
What?
00:07:12
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:07:15
Speaker
That is ridiculous.
00:07:16
Speaker
I actually haven't heard a lot of these things either.
00:07:19
Speaker
I have heard breadcrumbing and ghosting though.
00:07:22
Speaker
I feel like dating apps are really kind of inducive towards ghosting, right?
00:07:29
Speaker
Just kind of the way they're set up and the situation that they set up with people.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's right.
00:07:34
Speaker
It really facilitates that kind of behaviour.
00:07:37
Speaker
And a lot of kind of dating experts talk about the gamification of love and dating, where it's become like a game, essentially.
00:07:47
Speaker
No, definitely.
00:07:48
Speaker
And what do you think sparked you wanting to put this all down into words, really, from the podcast?
00:07:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:59
Speaker
I think I've always enjoyed writing and words.
00:08:03
Speaker
I have done many, many things in my life.
00:08:05
Speaker
But before I turned to comedy, I was a musician.
00:08:09
Speaker
I was a singer-songwriter.
00:08:10
Speaker
And so writing lyrics was always really important and expressing something through the lyrics and what I wanted or needed.
00:08:17
Speaker
needed even to say and to express and put out there into the world.
00:08:22
Speaker
And I think, you know, there's always a hope if you write in one form or another that you're going to connect with some audience, some people out there who see things and feel things the way that you do.
00:08:34
Speaker
I think it's very human to feel like we're...
00:08:39
Speaker
alone or different or weird.
00:08:42
Speaker
So I think there's something comforting about connecting with people who feel some similar things.
00:08:46
Speaker
And I think that's similarly why I've been interested in writing about breakups, because I think it's comforting to share our stories and feel that other people are responding to things in the same way.
00:08:57
Speaker
kind of a way but also when I was a musician which is going back a good few years now I was also a music journalist for some magazines like Time Out I did I did quite a lot of work for right at the end of the 90s and the early noughties so yeah when I was kind of a young 20 something in London I
00:09:19
Speaker
I was writing a lot of music reviews and journalism and interviews with kind of Britpop bands
Publishing Challenges and Book Structure
00:09:25
Speaker
and so on.
00:09:25
Speaker
So yeah, writing's always been a bit in my blood and it just made sense because I think the frustrating thing about being a comedian, much as there are lots of wonderful things that it can be amazing when you've really connected with an audience and everyone's laughing and having a great time, which is the result you hope for.
00:09:45
Speaker
It doesn't always happen like that.
00:09:48
Speaker
But the frustrating thing about it is even the best gig, even if you've been filming it or recording it in some way, it's sort of gone.
00:09:56
Speaker
It's happened.
00:09:57
Speaker
The moment has passed.
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:59
Speaker
Whereas if you document something in a book, that is an artifact that stays, however people consume it, whether it's an e-book or an actual lovely physical book, or they might listen to the audio book, which I've narrated.
00:10:13
Speaker
But it is something fixed that stays there.
00:10:16
Speaker
It's kind of a constant...
00:10:19
Speaker
performance of it or a expression of something so I think there's something comforting about that as opposed to the sort of very ephemeral nature of a great comedy show or comedy performance where you've you know thought of some really spontaneous ad libs they're sort of just gone in the moment and you think oh you know if I said that again it probably wouldn't it wouldn't be the same yeah yeah no that is so true it doesn't like
00:10:45
Speaker
I think comedy is so quick lived, isn't it?
00:10:47
Speaker
It's just, it's very instant.
00:10:50
Speaker
Whereas I think writing is a lot more lasting, I think sometimes.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, definitely.
00:10:55
Speaker
I mean, a book, you know, books are timeless in many ways, unless society changes and cancels you.
00:11:02
Speaker
Other than that, they're pretty timeless.
00:11:04
Speaker
But that's not going to happen, Rosie, so it's fine.
00:11:09
Speaker
What I was going to ask was, so your stand-up is a lot about relationships and breakups as well.
00:11:19
Speaker
Both your books is Monogamally Dead and The Breakup Monologues, based off a show and the podcast.
00:11:26
Speaker
Would you ever think about writing something that exists in its own space?
00:11:35
Speaker
Possibly, although I do think that writing things across different mediums is a really fun way of going about something.
00:11:43
Speaker
And also it kind of establishes, if you like, I mean, I don't know whether I like using this word, but an inverted commas brand.
00:11:52
Speaker
You know, so when you go to a publisher, you can say, well, look, I've already got an audience for this.
00:11:57
Speaker
I've already got interest in this because I've got this podcast and it's got all these listeners all around the world and it's had these reviews and these ratings.
00:12:07
Speaker
And, you know, so I think you can sort of...
00:12:11
Speaker
go to a publisher with some ammunition.
00:12:15
Speaker
Whereas if you just go with a proposal and an idea and there's no demonstrative way of saying, this is going to be great.
00:12:24
Speaker
You know, people are definitely, I have a marketing plan.
00:12:26
Speaker
People are definitely going to
00:12:28
Speaker
buy it and consume it.
00:12:31
Speaker
I think it's harder.
00:12:32
Speaker
I think even if you have a little bit of a profile as a comedian, as I do, it's still hard to convince publishers to give you an advance and give you a deal for writing a book.
00:12:45
Speaker
So it's really tricky times.
00:12:48
Speaker
And I was really conscious I wanted to get a deal with a
00:12:53
Speaker
If I could, with a major publisher this time, that was a bit of an ambition because with my first book, it was out with a small indie who sadly were in quite some financial distress and eventually got bought out.
00:13:05
Speaker
But there was a lot of...
00:13:10
Speaker
kind of drama and rollercoaster times when they were kind of when a lot of really lovely helpful staff were being made redundant you know people I'd sort of formed a bond and connection and relationship with and we were all set to market the book and then they were no longer there so
00:13:28
Speaker
I mean, the interesting thing then, of course, is that, you know, I signed a deal with a major publisher and then the world kind of almost ended and there's no certainty about anything.
00:13:39
Speaker
You know, you wonder if bookshops are going to survive and all of this kind of stuff.
00:13:44
Speaker
But it does seem bookshops, you know, even some of the smaller indie ones do seem to have survived and done okay because people have still been reading books.
00:13:51
Speaker
Thank goodness.
00:13:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:52
Speaker
I feel like there's sort of been an uptick as well.
00:13:55
Speaker
Book talk has become a big thing.
00:13:57
Speaker
Book talk.
00:13:58
Speaker
Book talk.
00:13:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:00
Speaker
But in terms of, so talking about your first book, talking about your new book, we'll get onto the business stuff later, but how did you find writing the breakup monologues book in the wake of, not in the wake of, but having written one book, how was it writing the second one for you?
00:14:18
Speaker
Well, I sort of had a bit of a template for, as I say, writing narrative nonfiction with science embedded in that.
00:14:27
Speaker
So I had a bit of a sense.
00:14:28
Speaker
I also quite like to play around with timelines.
00:14:32
Speaker
The first book has kind of flashbacks.
00:14:36
Speaker
in it.
00:14:37
Speaker
And the second book has a, what I call a butterfly painting structure, because the prologue is called The Butterfly Painting.
00:14:45
Speaker
And that sets out this idea that if we could view our relationships as palindromes, we might be able to sort of learn things by looking backwards and then take those on board when we kind of travel forwards again.
00:14:56
Speaker
And it's this sense that an ending is always also a beginning of something new.
00:15:02
Speaker
So perhaps we shouldn't always feel like it's the end of the world.
00:15:06
Speaker
Definitely.
00:15:07
Speaker
Beautifully.
00:15:08
Speaker
Beautifully said.
00:15:10
Speaker
Yes, literally.
00:15:12
Speaker
We've also only ever had one other stand-up comedian on the show.
00:15:19
Speaker
Who were they?
00:15:23
Speaker
It was the lovely Andy Osho.
00:15:27
Speaker
So we were really interested to hear about your process when it comes to, I guess, writing a set and whether you...
00:15:36
Speaker
attack it differently to you do, you know, your book or your podcast.
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:15:42
Speaker
I think when you write comedy, it can be a mistake to think about it too much as a word for word script, because you might deliver it in a sort of monologue-y fashion.
00:15:54
Speaker
Whereas I tend to write live comedy in a more bullet point kind of a way.
00:15:59
Speaker
In fact, I remember once I had my set list written on the back of my hand, which is a bit of a trope among new comics, that you just have that little prompt there just in case you forget what you're doing.
00:16:12
Speaker
And in fact, no, I didn't have my set list written on my hand because I decided I would never do that because I thought I might become reliant on it.
00:16:18
Speaker
I had my shopping list written on my hand.
00:16:22
Speaker
And some people in the front row were really confused and looking at that and going, well, she hasn't even done a joke about hummus.
00:16:30
Speaker
How dare she?
00:16:33
Speaker
That's brilliant.
00:16:34
Speaker
I mean, did you find you were able to...
00:16:37
Speaker
So I guess a lot of the skills, did you think that everything was transferable from podcasts to books to everything else?
00:16:43
Speaker
I mean, largely speaking, yes.
00:16:45
Speaker
And I'd say the most useful transferable skill that really equips you well as a writer is that you're able to perform your work if you are going to narrate your audio book or if you're going to perform at a literary festival or literary event or night.
Narrating Audiobooks
00:17:01
Speaker
You know to sort of look up from your book and connect with the audience and deliver it.
00:17:08
Speaker
And also you feel comfortable having conversations like this.
00:17:13
Speaker
because you're used to sort of talking to people in a fairly public forum.
00:17:18
Speaker
Whereas I know a lot of very introverted writers who've sort of been shut away writing their book.
00:17:23
Speaker
And then, you know, I chat to them in the, in the green room when we're at a literary festival and they're,
00:17:29
Speaker
really really scared about going on stage to read from their work so I think being able to perform your work and connect with an audience does help um and that that's a bit of a head start I think but actually the writing process um
00:17:45
Speaker
I don't know.
00:17:46
Speaker
I think it is slightly different because you just have to write so much when you write a next book.
00:17:54
Speaker
You know, and it's like several kind of one hour Edinburgh Fringe shows.
00:18:00
Speaker
You know, 70,000 words is a lot.
00:18:03
Speaker
And that's not even a crazy long book, really, is it?
00:18:06
Speaker
No, not.
00:18:08
Speaker
Well, it depends on the genre, but not generally, no.
00:18:12
Speaker
Was it always the plan that you were going to narrate the audiobook for the breakup monologues?
00:18:19
Speaker
Yes.
00:18:20
Speaker
I mean, I think that was pretty much always the plan.
00:18:23
Speaker
Interestingly, I narrated the first book for Audible.
00:18:27
Speaker
And before you narrate your audiobook for Audible, you have to go and do something called a voice test, where you just go in and read a bit and they go...
00:18:37
Speaker
Oh, yeah, you sound fine.
00:18:41
Speaker
Well, yeah, I suppose it's checking that you just are able to just sit there and do it because it actually drives you a bit mad just sitting in the studio for hours on end.
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:51
Speaker
Reading your workout.
00:18:52
Speaker
It is a strange thing.
00:18:53
Speaker
experience and there are professionals who you know know how to do that but I've done a lot of podcasting and radio so it's it's not too bad but yeah I must say it's quite a long stint yeah how long like obviously it takes longer than the audiobook actually is because you probably do multiple takes and and things like that how long do you reckon it is actually in the studio um
00:19:19
Speaker
I think with this one, I asked if I could break it into half-day sessions because I just think that's more manageable.
00:19:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:26
Speaker
And also, particularly if you've got other things going on, like gigs in the evening or you're doing other work, other projects.
00:19:33
Speaker
But the half-day session was actually quite short.
00:19:36
Speaker
It was quite packed.
00:19:38
Speaker
I think it was like a three-hour session, like two till five or something like that.
00:19:42
Speaker
And we did it, I think, in four of those for a seven-hour audiobook.
00:19:48
Speaker
That's pretty good.
00:19:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:49
Speaker
One take wonders all the way.
00:19:50
Speaker
Because you do obviously have a little tea break and you need to kind of have a moment to go to the loo or, you know, just get a breath of fresh air for five minutes or, yeah, but it's quite intense.
00:20:06
Speaker
Okay.
00:20:06
Speaker
Okay.
Publishing Insights
00:20:07
Speaker
And going back to the business side of things, you touched on this earlier and you mentioned that, because at this podcast, we're very interested in the journey that people take in their sort of careers.
00:20:18
Speaker
So you were saying that you signed your first book, Is Monogamy Dead?, with an indie publisher.
00:20:26
Speaker
Did you submit that yourself?
00:20:28
Speaker
And did you go through a sort of submission process that
00:20:35
Speaker
Both times I have had an agent.
00:20:38
Speaker
Right.
00:20:39
Speaker
The same agent?
00:20:40
Speaker
No, no.
00:20:41
Speaker
Different agent.
00:20:41
Speaker
A different agent.
00:20:43
Speaker
So the first agent I had was a friend of mine who knew my work.
00:20:50
Speaker
Okay.
00:20:51
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, actually a sad part of the sort of stressful situation that arose when the publisher was going bust is that we –
00:21:01
Speaker
ended up not working together anymore because we don't see eye to eye or didn't then about how publishing works in terms of how writers are rewarded and we just had real big ethical differences differences of opinion and principles about that so we stopped working together but that was really difficult and in fact that's one of the breakups that I've written about in the breakup monologues I've written about professional breakups because you know they're
00:21:29
Speaker
they're important too and friendship breakups and these different types of ending yeah I really like yeah I love that you touched on those two aspects a bit because I think it's so important to acknowledge that a breakup isn't just um through a sexual experience you know and that it's you know romantic yeah exactly so and that it can it can be really important to break up with a friend and professionally as well and it can be as hard which is
00:21:57
Speaker
you know, I think is very important to touch on.
00:21:59
Speaker
Definitely.
00:22:00
Speaker
So how did you come about meeting your second agent?
00:22:06
Speaker
That was through the podcast, actually, which is why I do think I do.
00:22:09
Speaker
I'm a believer in if you have an idea for a book, it's worth exploring it through some other medium, whether that is a podcast or a blog or some other way of putting your ideas out there and just getting a bit of a taster and a bit of feedback.
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:26
Speaker
So, yes, I'm now signed to Catherine Summerhays at Curtis Brown.
00:22:32
Speaker
And she was the agent.
00:22:34
Speaker
Well, she's the agent for lots of people, actually.
00:22:36
Speaker
But I noticed a couple of years ago she was agenting Katie Brand.
00:22:41
Speaker
And she was going to be guesting on my podcast at Port Elliott Festival, which is something that the lovely people at the festival had been.
00:22:48
Speaker
set up and they'd connected us.
00:22:50
Speaker
But I didn't have direct contact with Katie and I wanted to ask her about what she was happy to chat about or not on the podcast because I didn't want to get on stage in front of a couple of hundred people and ask her about a breakup she didn't want to talk about.
00:23:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:04
Speaker
As it turned out, she was very, very open and it's a lovely episode.
00:23:08
Speaker
Do check it out.
00:23:09
Speaker
But yes, but I dropped Catherine an email and said, would it be possible for you to link me up with Katie just because I'd like to have a chat before this podcast and just a kind of cheeky little, I am thinking about turning this podcast into a nonfiction book.
00:23:28
Speaker
Would you be interested to see a proposal?
00:23:30
Speaker
Just in the PS at the end.
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:34
Speaker
But obviously, it's lucky that she was like, yeah, I'd love to see it.
00:23:39
Speaker
And then when we did send it to her, she was like, oh, I think it's interesting and it's got potential, but I need to see a bit more.
00:23:46
Speaker
And so we did kind of stay...
00:23:48
Speaker
In contact.
00:23:49
Speaker
I mean, that said, the actual deal I ended up getting was through a contact of mine I had at Bloomsbury anyway.
00:23:56
Speaker
So sometimes, you know, but I think agents help the wheels along and help put things in process and help you have a bit of...
00:24:06
Speaker
you know, a presence in the sort of negotiation and all of that kind of thing.
00:24:11
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker
But, yeah, it was interesting how there was a contact I'd made through Twitter with actually the science imprint at Bloomsbury, which I was sort of gunning for that.
00:24:21
Speaker
And he thought there maybe wasn't enough science, but he passed it on to the health and well-being imprint who are called Green Tree, and it's with them.
00:24:30
Speaker
Oh, amazing.
00:24:31
Speaker
Your agent, um, does she help you editorially with the, with the book at all?
00:24:37
Speaker
No, that's why, you know, you're assigned an editor through your publisher.
00:24:41
Speaker
Um,
00:24:43
Speaker
Sure.
00:24:44
Speaker
You know, so to be honest, a lot of it is down to the writer themselves.
00:24:47
Speaker
I don't know how involved different editors are and what different relationships are in place.
00:24:53
Speaker
Maybe some writers have a very, very collaborative relationship with an editor they've worked with several times.
00:24:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:00
Speaker
But...
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think perhaps because of the pandemic, I didn't really, you know, see anybody.
00:25:08
Speaker
But we had obviously email notes back and forth and that kind of thing.
00:25:13
Speaker
And then there's quite a long kind of editing process, which is quite...
00:25:21
Speaker
quite challenging yes you know especially when it gets to the more nitty-gritty of little detail and proofing and kind of little weird grammatical errors that creep in sort of when it gets typeset and you're like oh hang on that you've suddenly changed this word to something that doesn't make sense gremlins creep in and often you're the one to notice these things um
00:25:46
Speaker
You know, even though, you know, everyone is kind of doing a great job, sometimes it's the writer themselves who, it's so important to you that you are the one checking everything, like last thing at night, you know, on the day before it goes to the printers.
00:26:01
Speaker
I mean, with my first book, it had been all proofed and everything like that.
00:26:05
Speaker
And I noticed that there was this weird big white splodge on one of the pages that obscured several words.
00:26:11
Speaker
Oh, no.
00:26:11
Speaker
No.
00:26:12
Speaker
And I was like, oh, no.
00:26:15
Speaker
So they did fix it.
00:26:16
Speaker
But, you know, I just think no one would have noticed because everyone's so frantically busy.
00:26:22
Speaker
That's what I found with publishers is, you know, we have this kind of romantic notion that we're going to really have our hand held by everything.
00:26:30
Speaker
you know, all these people who are going to guide us through the process and advise us at every stage.
00:26:35
Speaker
And, you know, I would say that all of these people I've worked with are really excellent at their jobs, but they're doing their jobs with a zillion other writers as well.
00:26:44
Speaker
So you only have a very short window when you have the time and attention.
00:26:47
Speaker
So it's, I think, a good idea to learn as much as possible about publishing and the whole process as you can.
00:26:54
Speaker
So when they talk about
00:26:56
Speaker
I don't know, advanced proofs or, you know, ARCs or all of these kind of things or different typesetting terminologies, you know, you can, you know what they're talking about and when they talk about royalties and, you know, when you're talking about purchasing your own copies for resale, you know,
00:27:18
Speaker
what is kind of typical in terms of discounts, author discounts for that.
00:27:23
Speaker
There was a big mistake with my first book, which was, yeah, not great because I'd been told I had a 60% discount when I had a 40% discount, which makes a big difference.
00:27:37
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:27:38
Speaker
A big difference.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yes.
00:27:41
Speaker
At least you got all this stuff out the way with the first book.
00:27:43
Speaker
I know, exactly.
00:27:43
Speaker
This one can be smooth sailing.
00:27:45
Speaker
Exactly.
00:27:46
Speaker
I mean, this time I have a 50% author discount, which is fairly typical.
00:27:51
Speaker
But it just means if you want to buy a few copies yourself to then sell...
00:27:57
Speaker
at smaller events where there's no official bookstall, you can do that and potentially you can make a little profit on those.
00:28:04
Speaker
But the really interesting thing that, again, I wasn't told with the first book is those copies do not count towards official sales, which is really important.
00:28:13
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:28:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's important to know.
00:28:16
Speaker
That is very important to know.
00:28:17
Speaker
I didn't know that.
New Podcast Project
00:28:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:19
Speaker
I didn't know that.
00:28:19
Speaker
Because that affects advances and things.
00:28:22
Speaker
Exactly that.
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:26
Speaker
So I was listening to your podcast today, actually.
00:28:29
Speaker
And the most recent episode on the Breakup On Logs was something a bit slightly different.
00:28:37
Speaker
I want you to tell us a little bit about the new project that you're working on at the moment.
00:28:41
Speaker
Well, yeah, I've just put out a pilot on the Breakup Monologues feed and it is something completely different.
00:28:47
Speaker
I had a small grant from a podcast production company called Content is Queen.
00:28:51
Speaker
They were fab, shout out to them.
00:28:54
Speaker
And yeah, I've developed this pilot for an idea called Looking for My Sister, which is about kind of siblings that we wish we had or siblings we sort of feel we might have had, even though we know we don't.
00:29:07
Speaker
Don't have them, if you know what I mean.
00:29:09
Speaker
And I'm investigating the weird metaphysical, spiritual ideas of past lives or vanishing twins syndrome and all of this kind of stuff.
00:29:19
Speaker
So there's a lot in there and there's definitely potential for maybe a longer series, which I would like to sort of pitch around and see if I can...
00:29:28
Speaker
you know, get development money or get a producer or production company to work with me to make a longer season of that.
00:29:36
Speaker
And then, you know, maybe that would be my next book
Reflecting on Life and Advice to Younger Self
00:29:40
Speaker
idea.
00:29:40
Speaker
Exactly.
00:29:43
Speaker
We see where you're going with this one, Rosie.
00:29:47
Speaker
I like the strategy.
00:29:48
Speaker
I like the way you sort of act out in real life your plan for your book and then write the book.
00:29:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:56
Speaker
Well, you can almost get really meta about it because you can write about your journey towards writing the book in the book, which sort of appears a bit in my breakup monologues book.
00:30:08
Speaker
Alongside obviously talking about breakups and my relationship journey and sort of staying together in my relationship finally, I also talk about the challenges of being a creative and trying to make a living.
00:30:20
Speaker
And as I say, talking about professional breakups,
00:30:24
Speaker
And sort of also my experience at Edinburgh Fringe and my decision to break up with Edinburgh Fringe because of the finances of that.
00:30:33
Speaker
So, you know, I do think it's quite interesting to sort of talk about
00:30:38
Speaker
you know, the development of your creative work as well within that, because I think that's all part of your story if you're a creative artist.
00:30:45
Speaker
So, so yeah, there's certainly a chapter set on a boating holiday where I talk about, you know, I'm supposed to be writing a book proposal.
00:30:54
Speaker
And then there's a footnote going, yes, the proposal for this book.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:59
Speaker
I love that.
00:31:01
Speaker
Taking all of that, uh, all of your experience and, and, and the things that you share through your books, through your podcast, through your, through your shows, uh, what advice would you give to your younger self?
00:31:12
Speaker
If you could go back in time before any of this started, what advice would you give yourself?
Desert Island Book Choice
00:31:18
Speaker
I don't know, I guess believe in yourself, continue to be authentic and keep saying the things that you want to say and putting your work out there.
00:31:31
Speaker
But I don't know, I would just say have more confidence in what you're doing because I've ebbed and flowed in terms of my confidence.
00:31:39
Speaker
And sometimes, well, as you will read about in my book, sometimes I've been distracted by
00:31:45
Speaker
relationships and love and feeling like I'm failing at love if relationships end and that kind of thing.
00:31:51
Speaker
And so I think sometimes your own personal drama can impact your creative and professional confidence and work.
00:32:00
Speaker
I mean, sometimes ultimately in good ways, like you can have this real creative spurt after a breakup.
00:32:06
Speaker
But I think sometimes you can really get enmeshed in complex relationships that are
00:32:13
Speaker
you know um kind of eroding your confidence and you know i think i see that most clearly in you know what was happening to my sort of performances on stage and how i was not kind of feeling completely 100 authentic and kind of clear and confident what my path was and what i needed or wanted to say yeah we're all right there with you ebbs and flows ups and downs
00:32:40
Speaker
Definitely.
00:32:40
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for your advice.
00:32:42
Speaker
And we've come to, you know, the dreaded last question now, which is a bit of a weird question.
00:32:50
Speaker
I was thinking about this, Jamie, because we're asking you to say if you were to be marooned on a desert island, however, if someone was going to have the conversation with you to tell you beforehand that you were going to be marooned so that you could pack a book, what would that be?
00:33:08
Speaker
What would the book be?
00:33:10
Speaker
And why?
00:33:11
Speaker
Well, you know, initially I thought I should probably pack a how to survive on a desert island book, you know.
00:33:20
Speaker
Wise.
00:33:21
Speaker
Like sometimes it's called Guide to what you can eat from kind of natural sources on the island.
00:33:28
Speaker
But if we are being more kind of literary and thinking about what book nourishes us more spiritually, then
00:33:38
Speaker
I mean, there are so many to choose and it's very difficult.
00:33:41
Speaker
But one that sprang to mind is Armistead Maupin's Tales of the City because I love his work and his kind of sense of creating community.
00:33:51
Speaker
And I think if you were reading Armistead's books, you would feel that you were surrounded by friends.
00:33:58
Speaker
Even if you were sort of alone on a desert island, you would feel some kind of comfort from the sense of community that he evokes.
00:34:06
Speaker
He talks about logical family as opposed to biological family, which is something that I've explored a lot in my work as well.
00:34:13
Speaker
This idea that those conventional structures of family aren't always what apply to us.
00:34:21
Speaker
If we have smaller biological families, we might feel that friends are our real family.
Episode Conclusion
00:34:26
Speaker
Well, that's a lovely sentiment to not be alone, to surround yourself with your logical family whilst stranded alone on the desert island.
00:34:36
Speaker
But it's a lovely choice.
00:34:37
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:34:39
Speaker
Thank you so much, Rosie.
00:34:41
Speaker
For everyone listening, to stay up to date with Rosie's latest adventures, follow her on Twitter at Rosie Wilby and also check out the Breakup Monologues book and podcast.
00:34:52
Speaker
You can follow them on Instagram at Breakup Monologues.
00:34:57
Speaker
And don't forget to follow us on Twitter at Right and Wrong UK and on Instagram at Right and Wrong Podcast.
00:35:06
Speaker
in us today.
00:35:08
Speaker
Thank you.
00:35:08
Speaker
It's been really, really lovely to speak to you.
00:35:10
Speaker
And yeah, thanks for listening guys and we will see you in the next one.
00:35:14
Speaker
Goodbye.
00:35:14
Speaker
Bye.