Transcript
Speaker: This is the Out of the Wild Podcast with Ken Ilgunis.
Speaker: Hey folks, welcome back. It's been a three -month hiatus between my last podcast with Colossal Biosciences. My goal for this podcast is once every month, so this is not ideal, but I've been busy. I just finished up my second year of my graduate psychotherapy program. I've been working on a story for National Parks Magazine about this big hike I took across...
Speaker: big Cyprus national. Preserve. I wrote a feature for Adventure Journal. on depopulated Spain And I've been working on my book proposal for The Future Wild. I hope I have good news about that over the next couple months.
Speaker: So yeah, I've been busy but I'm happy to be back. My guest today is Gordon. Buchanan. um If you're listening from the US, you may not have heard of him, but if you're from the UK, you may know that he is a... national treasure. over here he's one of britain's best known wildlife filmmakers and even if you don't know the name you've probably seen some of his footage he's done work for planet Earth.
Speaker: Frozen Planet. He has um a series called... like Blank and me, like the polar bear family and me, wild horses and me. where he does some adventure ships and and captures footage of wild animals.
Speaker: If you don't have access to the BBC, check out some of his stuff on YouTube, such as when um a polar bear tried to eat him or when he captured some... rare footage of a tiger in Bhutan. You can see his his his passion, his composure, and just why he's so likable. to everybody. He wrote a book called
Speaker: In the Hide, How the Natural World Saved My Life, which published last year, and I had the great joy of chairing an event at the Borders Book Festival in southern Scotland last year. for Gordon.
Speaker: that's how we got to know each other and i asked him to come on the pod and here we are 14 months Later. He's from the Isle of Mull. He lives in Glasgow now. though we recorded this. remotely from our computers.
Speaker: You wouldn't believe what I watched. last night. Gordon. I watched The Talking Parcel. Oh, is that but of is there film? or ah There's a film. Really?
Speaker: Yeah, so the so the listeners, i should I should ask, and I often ask. My podcast. guess this because I think it's kind of a window into someone's psyche. And this is a bit confusing, the ones you gave me, but I asked your favorite.
Speaker: book, movie, and album from any point in your life. And you gave me a book from your childhood, presumably, called The Talking Parcel. You also gave me... The movie Toy Story.
Speaker: and the album bad and i was like oh what what's what's kind of like my unified theory on gordon based on these three and i could kind of see some uh relationship between Toy Story and The Talking Parcel because, you know, they're kind of...
Speaker: inanimate objects becoming... animated And there's just kind of a... enchantedness to them. But then you threw in Michael Jackson bad. I was like, I can't make any sense of this. Well, it's fine. I'm... i'm um A man that doesn't really have...
Speaker: favorites. I kind of really struggle. um to come up with okay what is why is she talking parcels maybe is the exception as my favorite book because it did have a real you know sort of it resonated with me back then but when it comes to sort of music and and film.
Speaker: You know what? What is my favourite in... yeah This moment might not be tomorrow, but I think when when you ask the question, I think how however you phrased it.
Speaker: I was like, well, kind of think back to. at a time when there was an album that was That had real... not just not meaning as such but was represented something i think that's kind of you know music does that it's not always the about the music it's it's you know what does it represent and i'm The reason I picked bad i suppose because it's sort of you know there's a lot to to dig into There.
Speaker: But... I went to see Michael Jackson in concert. During the BARD tour when I was 16, Three.
Speaker: like top one singles on that album. Smooth, criminal, bad, and there was something else as well. yeah But I mean, when you asked me what my favourite album was, I was like... Well, I'm definitely not going to see anything by...
Speaker: Michael Jackson. well then you know Oh, I got to say it. yeah it's sort of yeah it's sort of um Yeah, and... and the music. is as great as it always has been and people kind of you know it's almost like his crimes or you know it's a
Speaker: a kind of inconvenience because it's like well and and there was a period of time when you didn't hear michael jackson sort of popping up on sort of the radio and but it's like well kind of yeah just let's forget let's Let's put that in the the past. I think him dying probably helped massively, like sort of helped his his music. Because we could just... Appreciate the song for the song.
Speaker: And. disassociate it a little bit with Michael Jackson. the But then the concert in Paris was, I mean, truly... incredible And I think when you've when you've had a...
Speaker: a live experience like that. And that was not my first sort of concert, but it was one of the very first. And to be, you know, to have gone on this sort of crazy journey overnight and like slept on the way home in the bus and to have done something that, you know, in our school, people are like, God, again, they...
Speaker: They've gone too. They've gone to entry. to see michael jackson felt like we were doing something that was Yeah. Bold, transgressive. and And part of that is like, well, you know, we... kind of There's a little bit of cachet.
Speaker: from just... going there because i think certainly we must have been the only people in the whole of Argyle that was at the Michael Jackson concert. um but yeah um and then the sort of I'll sort of hear those you know, I wouldn't. I put it on last night just to kind of like listen back to it. And it's not something that it's not an album that I would come back to time and time again. But it is always...
Speaker: there and when you know i ever hear especially the kind of the intro to to bad catapults me back through the decades. to being there and actually not just listening to but actually feeling that music reverberate you.
Speaker: your body and yeah it was kind of very mu very memorable. experience and yeah the music was kind of yeah it wasn't there wasn't A lot of things don't live up to your expectations, but yeah, it was it was quite an incredible night. Let me find an awkward transition from Michael Jackson to Gordon Buchanan.
Speaker: And. I mean, if we're thinking of a superstar or celebrity back then, that's like a really... Polished. image by like teams of people they're working for. Whereas I think nowadays...
Speaker: it's okay to be a lot more transparent about like what's going on. in someone's interior life. And in your book, book in the hide. You're very transparent and open about...
Speaker: the things that are going on inside you. I mean, you describe yourself as colorblind. ah You said you have ADHD. Dyslexia.
Speaker: That you go through. depressive times. And you're a super. Recognizer. Is that everything? Am I am i leaving anything out there? And I don' have no allergies or intolerances. Oh, that you're lucky there. yeah So is it fair to call you neuro... Divergent. Is that a term you use to describe? No.
Speaker: Yeah, and we all are. That is... that is The Thing. It's sort of, you know, I'm not singling myself out. you know different because The... the Autism Spectrum is vast And I think that ADHD is...
Speaker: is is also a spectrum. and interesting since i've had this like a fairly recent diagnosis but since then the number of people That say I think I am two and we sort of dig into it a little bit you're like yeah you probably You probably are. So I think with ADHD.
Speaker: you There's always been people. like that and i sort of grew up with people like that in my class and probably more focused on this at a hyperactive end of it so that you you these clearly stood out as people that, you know. struggle with with focus and could be quite disruptive.
Speaker: But... It's just, it's been quite interesting for me because I think, you know, mine. what i thought you know my dyslexia I'm thinking, actually. Hmm.
Speaker: Maybe that's not dyslexia. Maybe that ties back to... Two. ADHD and I think certainly My... periods of depression over the years.
Speaker: that is I'm sure a cause. or a sort of a symptom. of. ADHD and not recognizing it and not knowing how to to handle or medicate for it. And I think that kind of there's lots of kind of facets to it. But I think just being easily overwhelmed.
Speaker: Hmm. is kind of that is I think that's something that I you know i i have always... have I always become obviously overwhelmed? I think maybe it's more as life has got more complicated and more responsibilities and there's more sort of pressures i think it's come to the before because i think back when i was a kid okay what sort of what outward signs of ADHD was I exhibiting? I think the one... strong thing was in school.
Speaker: completely tuning out sort of just being was daydreaming looking at the window and having to be snapped back into. to reality so i think and maybe in some ways i was finding you know even just a fairly simple class work finding that overwhelming or not you know having the level of focus required to just to understand it so I will be - I think as a kind of response to
Speaker: Realising I wasn't taking things in and I was failing. you know, in that moment, I was like, well, just tune out. going to... put your mind somewhere else and another couple of friends at school in our class that were bouncing off the walls and disruptive and couldn't sit sit down. and Whereas I sort of, you know, My way of... of dealing with it back then was just sort of just turn you know turn down all the sound just sort of tune tune out and you know so it's been a very helpful.
Speaker: learning, I think, to kind of understand Myself. better and you know at the age of what 54 to learn something. quite key.
Speaker: about yourself. some of my Behaviors some of my kind of of like... sometimes impulsivity, sometimes my weaknesses when it comes to sort of...
Speaker: Alcohol. and tense sort of hedonistic tendencies. um With this ADHD diagnosis, I'm like... Om. That kind of explains it because what is normal for me I kind of knew.
Speaker: wasn't normal for for everyone everyone else and i often found myself in sort of situations where I'd be like questioning my kind of decisions and And I think when it comes to my mood,
Speaker: there's never been particular not there's no consistency so real kind of extreme. So one day I could be really hyper. and excited and optimistic.
Speaker: But I... would always know as that well. You're going to wake up tomorrow And you may feel. or you wake up tomorrow And I will be. at the Bottom end of the... slide and that's sort of it.
Speaker: I think. That's really unsettling to just not have that sort of understanding of what what what is it that makes me... what makes me happy what puts me up and what puts me down and never really been able to put my My finger.
Speaker: on it and i think okay this is my kind of you know favorite topic at the moment because it is so so recent but it's like it it does explain a lot to me About me. You have self -awareness. You have a helpful label.
Speaker: with the whole history of of research and thought. behind it and you have a pill too right that solves all this Magic pill. Yeah. What is it?
Speaker: It's a pro. Maybe we could do a brand partnership with Elvance. It's called Elvance, but I can't remember what the active... sort of ingredient agent is but I...
Speaker: went on the medication sort of maybe sort of six weeks ago on a very low dose and i don't feel anything and then the consultant psychiatrist up the dose and i was like yeah i can this there's something but now i'm sort of kind of getting up towards the the maximum dosage and it has been It has been really transformative. It it just...
Speaker: Yeah. It just... Pause. oil on the waters like if it's if without it I wake up. and it is All there.
Speaker: all at once you know anything that's worrying me personally any anything that i have to do is work wise calls that i need to make emails after a pile of mail just if it's just a walk around and everything is just Trying to sort of...
Speaker: swamped me and drowned me and that's kind of you know, the... I often use a sort of... expression of but sort of you know keeping my head above the water. and i you know i feel that that's kind of almost physically that i'm shredding water and sometimes I'm sort of like sinking under and drowning under the weight of everything but then other times I'll have a moment when I'm you know my head's above the the surface and i can breathe whereas this sort of this little pill It's like, I'm kind of just.
Speaker: on the surface of the water here i'm not even sinking into my ankles. Nothing is. is overwhelming me but and it's not you're not kind of dulled to anything. It's just that... Eh.
Speaker: it's calm it is just kind of clarity and focus and calmness in sort of a pill. Form. And you the only anxiety that I have at the moment is like.
Speaker: Am I going to build up a resistance to this? or Yeah. or you know even when i was away on holiday And I had to sort of... A day. I'd run out and I thought, I won't run. the rest of the medications back at in in Glasgow and I thought, oh God, that's going to be a day of...
Speaker: of M. without. taking this and, you know, I feel worryingly dependent. On. this at the moment that's the And the other day.
Speaker: I woke up really early, like half three, and I couldn't sleep. I was up. staying at my dad's. And I thought, why it's going to be a nice day. And I thought. i tried to get back to sleep couldn't i thought i'm going to drive to Thank you. and just do some filming, or photography.
Speaker: And I got up and I thought, I'm not going to take my... this. tell in first thing because it's Today is going to be a good day because I'm going to go off and going to do something that I enjoy doing. half an hour into my drive and like it's almost as it was like an earth tremor it was like oh no worrying about things of there was no excitement about well you're going to go to this place because that's where you want to go and you're going to do something you love doing it was like everything just these little sort of so a meteor started
Speaker: beating off my brain and I was like, oh God. i thought you haven't taken your pill and i was like Don't take it. Just kind of sit just sit with this. feeling and then it got to sort of you know after another half hour like No, this this is ruining my day. I need to... and it was a reminder of the me of two months ago or even less than than that and then I sort of took the medication and within five minutes And it's like...
Speaker: The waters are calm and I'm like, God, this... This is kind of... doing the job i mean i think when it comes to medication and adhd diagnosis i think a lot of people do struggle with the medication and don't get on particularly well with it and i think there's lots of different types it's just that I managed to kind of sort of i think hit gold or the sort of doctor prescribed one that you know struck gold straight away and it it kind of worked for
Speaker: for my brain. so And I think... Now at the moment, I just have a real... kind of excitement and optimism. about each day like not even about the future but just sort of getting up and just a complete you know I'm sort of a a real spring in my step that I kind of probably have never Never had.
Speaker: before, because I think to sort of be it this Life stage. When. you know a lot of I suppose my kind of ambitions or career aspirations. I've done that and I'm still doing it you know as far as sort of you know other kind of life aspirations sort of him. mm -hmm meeting someone, having a family, you know. finding a nice house to live in i've i've sort of done that so those all of those
Speaker: the things that were kind of somewhere on the horizon i kind of know there I've kind of reached I'm kind of I've reached this of the top of the mountain. And it's like, well, Yeah, just. Enjoy then. enjoy the view it's not quite that my work is is done but you know i think i've never really been one for sort of enjoying the moment because it was always something that I needed to kind of work.
Speaker: on a work. towards. But yeah, I think there's a ah lot to be said for just sort of. ah It just... enjoying Being.
Speaker: and And just kind of giving yourself a... Giving yourself a break. until I'm 54 and that is sort of... i'm kind of feeling This is the best.
Speaker: Age. To be, I've got a lot. you know. Less pressure on myself, kind of many of the things that I kind of wanted to do in life or achieve. i've i've done and as you see i've still i've still got my my health. So it's like, right, okay, I'm probably beyond the halfway point. And yeah, kind of the realization.
Speaker: that. I have lived. more than half my life. So just... yeah kind of what is it you know Who am I now? Emerging sort of This is Adam. 50s and kind of get, you know,
Speaker: finding out who i am which you know i think will make sense to anyone that, you know. is of maybe post. Child rearing, our kids are sort of 21, 22. And that's obviously such a kind of intense Pressured and very lovely and rewarding.
Speaker: But you kind of come out of it. kind of... kind of forgetting who who you are because Food. 22 years you've Well, I know that I'm lawless.
Speaker: Dad, Harris's dad, and that's kind of what... defines me and i think at 54 now That. You know. that the kids aren't sort of as dependent.
Speaker: on me it's that it's kind of time it's time for For me, and I suppose the interesting thing is, like look well I don't really... I'm not sure. and Well, I'm kind of still getting to.
Speaker: to know myself which you know That's quite interesting. Is it is it jarring? is it Is it freeing to kind of go through that transition from... full -time parent to something else.
Speaker: I think is... i mean it's it's freeing i think when you think how long that sort of you know, sort of Period spans from, you know, I was 30. when Lola was born.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, I was expecting Lola. yeah i think sort of you come out this side and it's just sort of well there's a kind of not an not and Not an emptiness, that when both when both kids went off, you know weren't in the house, you're like, well, hang on, what do we what do we do now?
Speaker: But I think I'm feeling, I'm kind of... Yeah, I suppose getting back in touch with the me of. of all because i kind of haven't really changed that much fundamentally so it's kind of like yes it ah It's funny, I've actually... met up with a lot of old friends that I haven't seen. since pre 3. kids. and so i'm kind of getting to know friends and sort of rekindling those
Speaker: friendships and i think i'm kind of rekindling My... relationship with with myself. And yeah, there's something kind of. Yeah, and I think I'm... and um' content, I think that's the thing. like that life has worked out you know with all of the lumps and bumps life has worked out really well for me and I've got to this sort of age and I'm still really excited about.
Speaker: what I'm going to do. Next. I've worked exclusively sort of with the BBC, not staff, but just of I've worked exclusively for them for you know the last...
Speaker: 20. 20 years. And I've always thought there will come a day when maybe the you know myself star starts to kind of lore on the horizon starts to fall but that's only to be expected because that's what happens with you know most people that work in sort of tv or particularly in front of in front of the camera But that kind of never happened. And I was like, oh, that's good because I've gone from sort of, I started off, you know, my kind of on.
Speaker: on -screen I started off you know at the start of my presenting journey as as the young as the young guy it was sort of you know that was sort of the producer that they encouraged me to do so sort of to be in front of the cameras like well it's like Everyone in in wildlife films, they're all kind of older guys. You could be this sort of, you know, you' the the young guy and And that young guy is now...
Speaker: An old. ay But the audience is still there. So I think it's kind of... of Yeah, maybe a few years ago, I was probably thinking like some young upstart is going to kind of sneak in and so of you sort of... sort of knocked me off my little spot. but I've kind of grown with the...
Speaker: the audience and you do but you build up a sort of a trust with the the audience and now you know being older and visibly older. you know that's not somebody can't just sort of yeah step out of their bungalow or care home and sort of like knocked me off the spot so I'm not kind of I'm not looking over my my shoulder at anyone I've managed to kind of just sort of ride that that wave and sort of.
Speaker: continually work with really good people that only you know that that have just kind of kept me kind of Maybe relevance is not the right word. but you kept making popular programs that people still still come to so I'm writing an article at the moment for the Hidden Scotland magazine and just to sit down and do that it's like really exciting because I don't do that all the all the time so I'd rather be sitting doing that article
Speaker: at home, on my laptop. then going out. and sort of filming something because it's sort of i've done a lot of I've done a lot of that over the years and sort of it's just... kind of, I suppose.
Speaker: maybe kind of sharpening those other kind of... skills as as well it's quite that's really rewarding and and Not that my... Yeah, so maybe in some ways my sort of filmmaking, you know,
Speaker: sort of plateaus of that you get to a level where I know... what it takes to make a kind of... Agreed nature documentary. So that's what I'm kind of trying to work. towards and a lot of it is quite kind of formulate, especially when it comes to actually filming, you know, once you've got all the key skills and you know about. composition and and lighting. it's of a kind of can be a bit painting by numbers because and it takes the
Speaker: Maybe the creativity. out of it because I'll film something and think okay that's as good as it can be given you know given this of the what is in front of me.
Speaker: This is the best that I can do with what nature has sort of served. served up to me so it's there's not much It doesn't feel like there's much. Creativity. there where he's writing something or engaging an audience if it's in a theater that sort of there's kind of creativity about. to that and that i find quite exciting so it's more sort of fresh challenges I think are the things that kind of.
Speaker: Do excite me. more Speaking of Hidden Scotland, I was wondering, like, let's say... I have a week. with Gordon Buchanan. to show me where to go in Scotland? like where Where would you take me that's kind of unexpected?
Speaker: In Scotland. What I kind of realized Well, I've always known this, but just the other day. Three days ago, I was zapping.
Speaker: Glencoe and Glencoe is Incredibly. busy All of these sort of car parks and lay -bys that we're Emptiness, I'm gonna... broken down or someone was meeting their mistress and a sort of like a disused glory.
Speaker: Nobody stopped. And now, especially at this time of year... in this the summer as we are at the moment. There's thousands and thousands of people at these viewpoints. But what I realized was I thought I was.
Speaker: camping i wanted to go camping like well i'm not gonna Fuck any piece. Yeah. yeah And what I realized is like. people are so you know the kind of herd mentality it's like well This is where everybody stops.
Speaker: So. we'll just stop with everyone everyone else it's sort of yeah it's like These kind of decoy ducks that you know you put out to bring other ducks in. You put a plastic duck in a pond and other ducks will see it and say, oh, we'll go where that guy is. what I realized was sort of like, these overrun car parks and beauty spots.
Speaker: All you have to do is sort of walk another couple of hundred meters. and no one's there no one kind of like walks off the you know the path so that one area is kind of like you've had tens of thousands, if not millions of of you know feet treading over it. and then just down the road somewhere that is just as as beautiful or more beautiful because of the absence of of people. Heya, you're the only -
Speaker: only person there so i think i'd probably kind of go to I take you to... familiar places but just go off the beaten Right.
Speaker: and sort of leave all of this of the Tooters. chaos behind but there's i keep going back you glencoe And. is somewhere that I really love. It's just staggeringly.
Speaker: Beautiful. and the majority of those of tens of thousands of tourists. Don't even leave the car park. They they stop. take the photo and move on to the the next beauty spot whereas the use of the mountains around Glenn, cool.
Speaker: stunningly beautiful but i kind of it tickles me the thought is like Well, all you have to do is sort of you know hike. up. that mountain and you're looking down on this you know you bump into other other people but you just kind of feel that you're in a special place and you're doing something special and just getting the most out of that landscape. I think that's it, you know, stopping in a car park and taking a couple of shots.
Speaker: isn't really about experience. and that you know The landscape, it's sort of, it's kind of taking, you know, taking a box or it's sort of a kind of bucket. I never, I'd never liked the term. bucket list but it's like okay i've seen glencoe let's go to ben nevis will take a photo of of that and for me it's sort of It's not about showing somebody on your phone places that you've been. It's about. your personal experience. with that.
Speaker: that place and getting the most. the most out of it. But yeah, scotland there's so much of Scotland that kind of I've yet to... explore myself. You know, I grew up on Mull and there's There's parts of Mull that I... You know, I really want to.
Speaker: to explore. So if it's going to take you away somewhere... I'd probably pick somewhere that that was new to you. And to me, and where most people don't. Don't go.
Speaker: Gotcha. And Glencoe in so many places in Scotland, it has such... topographical grandeur I mean, the topography is just... Amazing. Sometimes the biodiversity around these places isn't quite as impressive. And I'm a... i'm a confessed. Wilderness snob. you know. i've I've lived in the... Brooks Range of Alaska, I've seen kind of an intact. pristine.
Speaker: wilderness. So when I moved to Scotland, going on walks with my wife i just must have been the most annoying walkers like oh this is this isn't nature this isn't wilderness but over time i feel like i'm I don't know, evolving in some way. I'm maturing. I'm like, okay, maybe it's not the best, but I'm going to enjoy it for what it is. A butterfly kind of goes past. I'm like, okay, i can I can appreciate that in ways that I couldn't. before, what is it like for you to kind of go to some of the richest
Speaker: Spots. on the world and then to come back. to Scotland where we're like... we're one of the lowest for kind of biological intactness in the world Yeah, I think... and Glencoe is a good example because I think when I first sort of laid eyes on you know that that part of Scotland and I was impressed by those incredible mountains. I didn't know what Scotland had.
Speaker: had lost as far as it sort of... You know, it's it's... woodlands and forests and and it's Hmm. So... by diversity. Bye. So for a long time, I just found those sort of empty glens really depressing, these sort of ecological...
Speaker: deserts because I know maybe more than a lot of people is that what what this place once looked like and this the life that it supported and you know that it how barren They are. So I kind of lost a lot of the...
Speaker: beauty. It was just looking at a kind of completely degraded. of... Yeah. Stripped. landscape. But I think it's kind of...
Speaker: Time has gone on. I'm like thinking, well, it's not. Hopefully, it's not always going to look. like that and the whole kind of sort of rewilding movement or process.
Speaker: is I think, well... Nature does. bounce back. Nature is incredibly resilient, and often You don't even have to give it a hand. you just have to leave it alone you have to kind of you know keep heal its wounds. you Relieve grazing pressure and it will just sort of those natural mechanisms will sort of kick back in so I kind of think okay this is what Ranagh Moor looks like this.
Speaker: uh The moment. But... 50 years from now hopefully it's going to look a lot more like it did. a thousand years ago than it than it has done for my my life so does that impact your present day relationship with such a place knowing that it might or very likely will be improved in the future. yeah i definitely think there's more sort of there's kind of there's there's hope there i think that's kind of in when it comes to sort of
Speaker: the natural world. in conservation. you know hope in itself is not Enough. you You can't just sit back and... and hope. um hope that everything's going to get better sort of this it's it's more hands -on than that you know people have to do stuff to sort of actually to kind of
Speaker: Create. the world that we want to to live in and to sort of you know heal the wounds that we've inflicted on the planet that takes a lot of a lot of work and and in some places there's a huge amount of work that has been being done and places are kind of you know life is is returning to those those places so yeah i think the only kind of shame is that it's like well i would love to Yeah.
Speaker: If in the future, if, yeah, I don't believe in an afterlife, but if there is an afterlife and I get to come back. as a ghost. I wouldn't be visiting people and rattling about in someone's attic and in their in their basement. I was just like, what does Scotland look like now? I'm going to just kind of like wander those moors and hope that they're not moors anymore, that they're they're woodlands and hope that there's kind of all these creatures. are at least.
Speaker: Some of them that have been wiped out have. have made it. a return so yeah and it's it's like it's a It's a slow process. But it's kind of... you know there's In some areas, we are moving in.
Speaker: The Rites the right direction. And just the other day, I kind of... because i spent a whole sort of almost 24 hours up in that area and you know there's sort of The trees.
Speaker: popping back out kind of where you know there's just i think there's a bit of grazing pressure has been relieved there are It is that where... just open moorland with just with heather on them that now have been.
Speaker: either fenced or they've kind of taken sheep off and and kind of hammered the deer numbers and no planting going on but the forests are are returning. Yeah, returning to those places. And I find that really inspiring because if it can happen in in you know in one three square miles of a glen, it can happen.
Speaker: anywhere but we've got to kind of work towards that and realize I suppose the value of. of nature. And I think with everything, especially this year with you know with wildfires, I think it's bringing people's You know.
Speaker: Elevating there. concern But. Not just thinking climate change means that you can go to... the beach more days of the year i think sort of this is year with a lot a lot of people are. much more worried about. what's happening to the the planet.
Speaker: And I think... restoring wild places. is... in. Good for so many. reasons but it's not just like well wouldn't it be nice to have you know this whole glen forested and to reintroduce wolves and and bears and lynx and I was like, well, actually.
Speaker: Nature. has always looked after us that sort of that is you know we need nature for everything that we need in our in our lives it's just that we generally don't.
Speaker: value it or we're so removed from nature. We. We just don't realize how dependent on it we are. we are and i think with this year with sort of you know fires all over and in the Highlands of Scotland and the massive fire. up in the Cairngorms. um people are kind of thinking well you know if there was more vegetation. If there were more...
Speaker: beavers, you know, it just sort of this this wouldn't happen to the same. the same extent so i think you know these healthy healthy ecosystems Uh...
Speaker: are are resilient i think that's sort of you know, something that people are realizing in cat in California. They'd be doing this beaver. reintroduction is to to to mitigate. sort of fire risk and it's sort of really fascinating because people probably be like all right so hang on an outskirts of la why why why are you putting beaver there and it's like well you know,
Speaker: They will build dams and they will not just canoe. create these bodies of water they'll saturate the land about that so when these fire events happen Not everything is. is going to to burn so it's like yeah well Let's get. Let's get more beavers out there. The going to save my house from burning down. Let's let's get them out and enlisted.
Speaker: It's a really interesting. time we're in, because as you say, there's these climate... cataclysms these emergencies you know forest fires here in scotland spain France, California. But there's all these wonderful stories too, like the one you just mentioned with the beavers. And there's got to be at least, you know, a hundred different rewilding projects just happening.
Speaker: in Scotland. alone And since we spoke last June, Gordon, I've been working on... a book i'm calling it the the future wild uh a rewilded world a resurrected bestiary and nature's next big comeback so this stuff is all very kind of close to mind i'm wondering if you could have you know your pick And let's give you 500 years, five.
Speaker: optimistic, hopeful years. what might be existing say in scotland what would you add to the the bestiary here Well, I think... sort of Rewilding is not a particularly...
Speaker: helpful. term because it implies we're just sort of returning to how it once was and I think Cool. the way it should be or maybe it's sort of not rewilding it's just sort of repurposing So repurposing. wild land so that it benefits not just mammals, birds, trees.
Speaker: insects because it benefits. people so that's my kind of view you know 500 years from now that you have community human communities and animal communities kind of sharing the same sharing the same space. So you could find, you know, walk through one area where you have some wild.
Speaker: woodland where there's sort of... birds and the bees and the beasts of... scurry and and flat but alongside that you've got polytunnels or you've got a wind farm or you've got somebody kind of you know just that it's got a an office in a cabin and there's, you know,
Speaker: working online from from home so i think it's actually sort of you know with such limited space and our our planet getting smaller and and wild places is getting smaller we have to kind of find a way to you know too.
Speaker: put them to to best. use to for maximum maximum benefit you know benefits for for people but also benefits for for species. So I think i would i i really do believe that 500 years from now We will have.
Speaker: Wolves Bears. links, I think all of those animals I think will be returned to Scotland. If that's the timescale, 500 years. I think that will happen. get at the sort of chaos and calamity aside um because you can if you're trying to kind of Repair.
Speaker: an ecosystem. All of those animals are part of that. ecosystem and if there's sort of one piece of the puzzle is missing we're always going to have to sort of meddle with it to kind of just sort of tweak things to put it you know to put it right so yeah i i I definitely don't think there would be bears in my lifetime but if i live you know Yeah, if I could make it to my kind of late 80s.
Speaker: I think we will see wolves. Back in... in Scotland. There will be. many more people. that would shout me down and say well that's never going to happen or it's maybe not particularly helpful.
Speaker: saying things like that because all it does is kind of fuel an already kind of quite heated. heated debate But... there are ways that technology can can actually make that possible I mean, the habitat is...
Speaker: is is there you know if you were to have an area in Scotland where there were wolves living wild and free. they would...
Speaker: Yeah. bring huge benefits to this of to the ecosystem But obviously you don't want wolves to sort of, because as you know, wolves will.
Speaker: prosper and spread out if there's no hunting pressure on them and they will do what wolves do which is be one of the most successful mammals on the on the planet But in somewhere like Scotland, where an island... There's no sort of...
Speaker: you know. an abundance of places that they can live and we've got roads and we've got towns and cities. but Wolves will fit. into this sort of, but even the current pick, we don't have to do.
Speaker: Anything. to landscape it's just opinions that have to that have to change before that would. that would happen but i think with technology You know, you could have one wolf pack that you heavily manage. It's like, okay, well, let's let's let's take the Cairngorms, for example. Let's have a wolf.
Speaker: pack there, let them do what they do. but sort of geofence them. N. and Manage their numbers. Don't let them kind of, you know, get out of control. Don't let them cause conflict with you know human.
Speaker: interests i think sort of we' we're always for as long as we Live. as part of nature we're always going to have to manage it because we're just that selfish species that thinks well it's kind of it's a shared planet but really it's ours it belongs to kind of man and women womankind and it's kind of down to us to just keep things keep on top of. of things but you know i think with you know a wolf pack running around the highlands of of Scotland.
Speaker: and being controlled in some way, or their movement being controlled and keep you know have them in a way that there wasn't. the there wasn't your sort of limiting kind of conflict. I would i'd be surprised if that...
Speaker: didn't. happen. sort of 50 years from from now we'll just think about the potential for something like eco robotics i could imagine in a hundred years like uh Like a drone shepherd that comes and shoots rubber bullets at a wolf or a bear to protect. livestock thereby making you know agriculture and wilderness kind of yeah live together.
Speaker: Well, I'm... ah i'm i'm All four. that and using sort of technology for you know to help. Yeah, to help.
Speaker: And I think, you know... it's a That kind of exists. That is probably a company like DJI. You could say to them, can you design as a drone that...
Speaker: can fly a boat automatic flights, can identify wolves day or night using thermal imaging and if it happens to go towards sort of this you know farmers.
Speaker: Cattle field is like, you just. ping a couple of rubber bullets at it or harangue it out of the area it's sort of that's you could they could design that within a month.
Speaker: So I think. Yeah, there's there's definitely... ways that nature sort of can you know, can be can prosper but can be managed and I think at the moment it's sort of there's there's It's just people on different sides of the...
Speaker: defense and they're they're just ah sort of arguing over the you know across the of this sort of divide. and often these sort of extreme views You just need to meet. And I think it's just meeting in the.
Speaker: in the middle it's like pull down the fence and everybody actually kind of you know sort of work towards a shared a shared vision and i think that is definitely you know it's definitely Changing.
Speaker: But you know, there's still people running farms that are my parents. generation and they're sort of values are more aligned with the kind of you know the victorian era. but these people won't be around for forever and it's happened a lot with you know with farms and other rural businesses and it big estates that they're being passed down to a younger generation who've been brought up in a very different world and do have
Speaker: It'll be very interesting to see. If they come, how they come. Will it be kind of a governmental -led thing? Will it be some rogue rewilders? Or will they just swim across the channel? and and learn how to do it. that way i mean who knows but but we're talking about rewilding or repurposing, whatever phrase we want to use. with with with nature. And I'm wondering...
Speaker: Rewilding. people I mean, you've been... all over the world. You've seen tons of different communities. And I want to read you a a text you sent me a while back. I don't think you'll mind me reading this off. but we you said...
Speaker: We should still be out throwing spears together. and avoiding being nod and eaten. I forget the context. of that but you're speaking of a kind of like wistfulness for wanting to live a more.
Speaker: <unk> event adventurous, enchanted. boots on the ground. life. Coming across... all these communities. Did you ever come across a community like, oh, they've nailed it? you know It's just just the right amount of... domesticity and wilderness, just enough of adventure. and homeliness Did you get ever really envious looking at one of these communities?
Speaker: It's a couple of communities spring to mind. so theres the Warani. tribe in ecuador so these of rainforest dwelling. tribe and that one community that i spent time with.
Speaker: I think because of of... of technology and you know being sort of hooked up to the rest of the world. a lot of these communities that probably would be like okay i'm going to leave this behind this i want to go out and you know see the nuoks maybe see the rest of the world but want to kind of you know go to the cities or sort of just sort of live as part of a different world.
Speaker: I'm in that one community that I was at. I think they saw, they could see through the internet what was out there and actually didn't. find it appealing at all and i think they had a sort of a value for the way that they lived in there communities. and some people had left.
Speaker: and come back and... And reported, wow. not that great out there. And another place that I've spent time was in in the Solomon Islands and live with the community for just a few weeks. uh and it's such a i mean it's a paradise it's stunningly beautiful it looks like desert islands of pamphlet white beaches you know,
Speaker: this little community were very laid back. They sort of... the they had Each family would have a garden.
Speaker: Everything was sort of, they've got no, so they don't have a cash. economy. So everything locally is kind of bought and sold. are or is bartered and and traded so the the fisherman will swap his fish for vegetables and vice versa so and the the kids there
Speaker: you know, spend their days, the end of every day sort of, you know. swimming and playing. in the the surf and they're being looked after by each other and you've got kids from the smallest kids to sort of you know it's teenage kids all hanging. hanging out and every one of them i've got all these photos of of in that community and Whenever I've shown people photos of this, say they all look so happy and healthy. And I was like, yeah, and that's because they they're happy and they're healthy. They've got... We've got lots of...
Speaker: fish to eat they've got lots of fresh fruit and vegetables and they have each other and they're living kind of like in in a very beautiful a very beautiful place with a very just just living very simply and I think simplicity is is key in that sort of, you know, we are.
Speaker: We are a simple A species... with simple requirements. but we have made life. very complicated for ourselves and that's why you know you have a mental health epidemic that's why you know sort of someone with adhd suddenly it's like well this is causing me problems you know In a community like Auriga Island in the South Pacific,
Speaker: Yeah, these... neuro spicy folk are are there, but they fit, they fit. in because they're sort of yeah there's always there's there's a role for them and they're part of a kind of a wider a wider community. so I think any community where...
Speaker: that there's extended families or ah oh or, you know, that. kind of takes a village to raise a child that type of thing anyway where that actually happens. I'm very envious because I think that's the way.
Speaker: Should be. we We're not... you We haven't been built. to raise children just with a mum. and dad or sometimes just with a mum that's sort of that's a fucking tough job And...
Speaker: and to do it on your your own with no no help that's why there's sort of you know so much sort of I think... it's stress and depression because that's sort of you know even something as natural as you know,
Speaker: having children and raising them. We're doing it against our nature, which is of doing it on our own rather than doing it with. our community and our extended family and you know when times get tough you know for example Him.
Speaker: let's say it's a single parent, a mum on her own with... two or three kids. and No one to fall. back on you know if she's tired and hasn't slept well, or one of her kids is is ill and keeping her up.
Speaker: you know, that's going to impact on. Our next day. it's going to impact on her sort of mental health and that's just going to sort of permeate through her whole family so subsequently there'll be you know be less harmony within her family and that's sort of you know that's not have it.
Speaker: Was, that's not... we know how we we created. We... when we we have we Let me say that again. human beings.
Speaker: were always is a reliance on on each other. was it was is what may has made us such ah successful. species we are you know clearly one of the most sociable. animals on there.
Speaker: on the planet and we're particularly good at collaborating. and working with other people. and and trusting each each other you know sort of trust is that kind of the hidden architecture of of humanity. And there's ah not much trust about or apparent lack of trust in the world. But when it comes back to it.
Speaker: we We use trust every single day. We sort of, you know, crossing the road, just trust that guy's not going to knock me down or that person's not going to... ripped me off i mean you've but you've got to be part of a sort of part of that human.
Speaker: community to actually, you know, feel those those benefits and and kind of realize that you know you you aren't alone so i think a lot of that sort of people just being overwhelmed. and people not being able to cope with the the way that we live in the the modern world is because
Speaker: Yeah, we're not. wired to to do it that's not you know that's not the human way we kind of tackle problems together and we overcome hardships. as you know not as individuals. So yeah, I think that's kind of any community that has retained that.
Speaker: real community and very... I'm very envious of because it works and that you see, you know. harmony and and happiness. at kind of a peak you know you think well people just can't get any happier than this they might want to one day travel to a city or or go and sort of you know work in a town or do something different with their their lives. but you know there's very real and apparent
Speaker: Happiness and harmony in in a lot of those communities that live very, very simple. simple lives so i think that's kind of key is about keeping yeah keeping life as simple as as as possible that's my kind of current current mantra i don't want an easy life i just kind of want i want it to be as simple as it can be It's interesting.
Speaker: Because... You can get like an A plus for the. values you have. And I think my wife and I. We're that like we want screen free kids. We want.
Speaker: Free range kids, you know. Lots of family time. good community. But the reality is... If the infrastructure crew is not there, if you don't if you're not surrounded by an appropriate amount of...
Speaker: of nature. If other parents aren't on board, if you don't have... you know, grandparents local it's kind of impossible to live up to those a plus values so like my daughter she's on like a
Speaker: A four day a week. tv diet she only gets it four days a week which is completely not ideal But you kind of have to compromise with the world that's been... given yeah you And it's interesting, you set up kind of a dichotomy there between this Solomon. islands community and then maybe more of a Scottish like single mom with their three kids. It sounds... Based on what I know about you, you've kind of had... Both. of that is that Fair to say, because you probably had a mom that was. A single mom that was...
Speaker: overstressed over strain but you also had this wilderness of of mole and probably a loving and safe community as well, where you could do all those things outside.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, definitely my mum was... over Stretch. She wasn't... Yeah, and given that she was raising four kids on a...
Speaker: on her own with no support or money from ah from my dad. She... Yeah. shoo she was just overworked she wasn't She wasn't over. overstressed But, you know, she didn't.
Speaker: would not have had Enough. Time. for for all of us, you know to to just sort of, you know she was out. working instead of three or four jobs that kind of when when we were really young And...
Speaker: you know, so even You're checking in with us as kids and sort of finding out what we did in our day and what we did at school she just didn't have time for that she'd come home from work she'd be knackered so it's like you know Feed us.
Speaker: Get us to bed. and then just do all all over again but what i found was like growing up in in a small... island community.
Speaker: You do have... that I didn't value it as a... as a kid I probably didn't even notice it it was just that's where that's where I lived and you knew everybody you know not just everybody on your street but you knew every single person in that town and you knew pretty much most people on the the whole island and then when i got to my set of teens i was like god this place is just so claustrophobic. I want to, you know. Just.
Speaker: couldn't envisage. Ever. spending the rest of my life there it was like i need to get This is... too small and I kind of lost the the value in in that community and I suppose it's only now that when I go back to Mull and i realized god this is a really special place there's something incredibly special about being and in a little town where you know most of the people and you can walk along the main street and and you know.
Speaker: bump into somebody and just say hello or stop and chat or think okay I know that you're your mum's in hospital i know that you you know your sister passed away so just kind of like being connected and i think this connection for me is is key is finding a way to connect.
Speaker: with people that sort of a realize this is something that kind of just drives. drives me. I like human connection. and whether that's with a baby in a pram and i want to make that baby smile at me or whether it's an old lady that i bump into the us into the street because I kind of get something out of...
Speaker: that I do get a warm fuzzy feeling when I'm actually engaging with with people. and Noticing them. or trying to make That minute.
Speaker: nicer for them or make them laugh. or ask about them and just kind of like let them know that well actually i'm Thank you. We might not know each other. particularly well but i do care about you i sort of a know you know you may be going through stuff and just sort of i think that you know way.
Speaker: so many tribal communities. They live communally, especially in South America. They're living in one dwelling. The whole village is just in one effectively. and in one house And that is a change that I've noticed.
Speaker: En mal is that people are living more behind closed. doors than they ever. used to and then the community does take a hit on that because there's there's less Community.
Speaker: Events. You could go to Mull now and think, oh, this is amazing to be part of the community. And there's all these sort of things that that are put on for the community and people take part in. But when I was growing up there, it was. you know if there was a dance on a There was a coffee evening. or some event Everybody took.
Speaker: took part in it. These were real community events and more and more people i think are just kind of yeah hiding. hiding away and behind closed doors. I'm not sure why that.
Speaker: why that is maybe it's just kind of born out of people are the more dissatisfied people so the more dissatisfied people become the more they want to hide away from the the world and the more they want the the less they want to to engage.
Speaker: but I kind of have I think at the moment have the best of both worlds because I live in in Glasgow so I can sort of you know have access to everything that the the city offers. But I can go back up to Mal and most of my family. still live there and I can just tap. back into that and just think this is this is amazing to have a place that still feels like Like home. to me that I still feel a safe.
Speaker: and as welcome and as part of that community. ah as I... as I always have done despite the fact you know I've i've you know i haven't lived there for since i was in my early 20s when i properly.
Speaker: properly left but i still get locals discounted in all of the kind of restaurants wow yeah so i'm like that's good let's let's let's stick with that but yeah is that a locals discount or a celebrity discount locals discount yeah okay Yeah, well, we I think we are very... fortunate to be living in.
Speaker: Scotland, because even outside of the Hebrides. You can find some of that. just wonderful culture of friendliness and cheerfulness and those everyday little bumping into. I find that just really wonderful. But let me... let me Wind us down, Gordon.
Speaker: I'd like to do a little... semi -rapid -fire segment. in which I pitch you. So I'm documentary ideas. If I steal these ideas I apologize in advance. You can have them. You can have them. These are half -baked half serious, so I hope you take them in a half serious way.
Speaker: Okay, number one. is the dire wolf family in me. As you probably know, three... Uh, uh. three you know dire wolves have been created from genetic edits done to a gray wolf so you would embed with Remus Romulus.
Speaker: and Khaleesi and get to know one of the first de -extinct animals what do you think of that one yeah yeah that's good that's top does. Top of my... Yeah. Top idea. I'd be up for i'd be up for that. and And the thing is, I'm running out of sort of animals to to focus on. I think when it comes to the family and me...
Speaker: Sort of. Brand, if you want to call it that. I've done all the big, I've kind of done, so we need to invent some more big animals or bring back some more big. animals so yeah that would be right up my street I mean, the Wooly Mammoth and Me series, that would...
Speaker: uh keep you and the bbc's good standing for the rest of your life but okay i'm glad that wouldn't you like that one take Number two. The 100 -Year Hide.
Speaker: So this is where... you so You started off and... you can't do the whole thing but other documentarians will kind of... come in your you're after you. So maybe you're kind of like looking at a Scottish ecosystem in the state of like ecological succession.
Speaker: You can move cameras around. You don't have to stay in the hide for the whole hundred years. But you can't publish anything. for a hundred years. And I want it to be just like a two hour.
Speaker: documentary. at the end i want to see 100 years unfold in two hours with the bbc Be up for something like that. Well... There was a project that I did called Our Changing Planet. is like We're going to be filming this over the next seven years. And we send Gordon here, Steve Baxhill here, Liz Bonin here, and we just check back in with these different...
Speaker: ecosystems or different national parks or wild areas. And then we got to year two. and they ran out of money so they If they can't do it for seven years... uh not sure the bbc necessarily but but for youtube definitely that's sort of the future the future of tv is is is youtube Okay.
Speaker: Number three is... fully baked. It's not half baked. It's fully baked. This is a blank in me. So we got to fill in the blank. ah semicolon or a colon.
Speaker: Time travel series. ah So I'm going to give you... A time machine. And we got four and a half. billion years of earth i want you to pick one year of those four and a half billion years. where you could be a wildlife documentarian. And.
Speaker: and go so what year would that be it could be the jurassic it could be the pleistocene this really excites me because that is one of my little private. fantasies that I have that i would have a time machine. And I would sort of like hop forward to see, you know,
Speaker: See what the future... looks like or maybe i wouldn't want to maybe i wouldn't do that yeah Maybe best not. But I would probably... i mean How long have I got? You've got one year. You've got one year. somewhere.
Speaker: I would. Jump in the time machine. Right here. And I would go back. to maybe 12 ,000 years ago?
Speaker: Whenever the first People arrived. in the British Isles. Before they started the impacting on. nature. I'd want to go back to that That year when...
Speaker: people first reached Scotland so obviously after the kind of you know the ice age retreated and then Scotland was kind of Wild it. back then with with trees and species moved in. I'd like to. And then people came along and then.
Speaker: de -wilded it. I'd like to Goodbye. and just go to familiar places i'd like to see what the river clyde look like i'd love to go up to the highlands and see Rannoch Muir when there were bears. and links and a a few people and just sort of because the bone you know the skeleton the bones of the you know, the our country is.
Speaker: is there, it's just, that of yeah, it's the flesh. has has gone so I'd like to see a Scotland when it was Peak wild. so that was probably maybe like maybe 10 000 years ago i'm not going to quite sure on when but people first kind of like arrived this far far north.
Speaker: Can you imagine the meat eating then? you know like It'd probably be easy. Easy meals too, because they're not really... they haven't really figured humans out. Oh, it would be a wonderful carnivorous. diet yeah and and there would have you know I went to the Galapagos of...
Speaker: In 2018, and eighteen and The abundance of... of life. there is phenomenal so if you just look over the the harbour wall and you don't even have to look over harbour wall because there's there's sea lions up sleeping on the park.
Speaker: benches and you look over and there's like 15 baby sharks and sort of 12 turtles and stingrays it looks as if somebody just tipped. an aquarium into you know okay we don't have enough room for the and and that's what the world was you know once looked like you would have you know walked along you know up the shoreline of of scotland and
Speaker: picked out the biggest lobsters that you've ever seen out of out of rock pools you would have seen whales and dolphins of you know you would have seen fish you know when you as soon as you look into the you know any river So, yeah, I think. finding enough to eat wouldn't be.
Speaker: wouldn't be a problem. i think I think if I were to kind of ask a secondary question, like where would you actually want to live if you kind of had a a choice, like what time? That 12 ,000, 15 ,000 year area sounds wonderful. But anyways, let me let me move on to number four here. This one's called the Eco Robots and Me. We already kind of touched upon this with the drone. So you're going to hang out.
Speaker: with all kinds of different eco -robots. Hey, folks, there's another 25 minutes or so of the podcast for paid subscribers. If you want to become a paid subscriber. Go to my sub stack and join up. That'll give you access to all my essays and full podcasts. Gordon and I, we... ah
Speaker: cover my eco robot idea and i present another one where it's just kind of focused a documentary about gordon and himself i don't know if he liked that one ah We talk about... Um...
Speaker: The stuff he's consuming. He offers a so ah Scottish. book, which guess gets us on like a side topic of... homosexuality in the hebrides i wasn't expecting to go there but he talks about
Speaker: His own experience is observing homophobia. and stuff on mall and some of those other small islands and um what that means and how quickly things change over the course of one person's lifetime. So yeah, feel free to have a listen, but I hope you enjoyed.
Speaker: what you've heard already. Thanks.
Speaker: This was the Out of the Wild podcast. Original music. by Duncan Barrett. for more episodes. Subscribe to my sub stack.
