Tristan Schinke is a first-year student of psychology in Maastricht. He is from the town of Gelnhausen, Germany. He was my partner on a 400-mile hiking and kayaking expedition across Montana’s American Prairie wildlife refuge.

22. Tristan Schinke on Montana, American Prairie, and Adventure

A chat with a Norwegian demographer and the director general of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health



Vegard Skirbekk [https://www.sv.uio.no/psi/english/people/academic/jarlevs/] is a social scientist studying how global demographic change is reshaping health, economies, and society. He is co-founder of the Centre for Fertility and Health and is a professor at the University of Oslo. He is the author of Decline and Prosper: Changing Global Birth Rates and the Advantages of Fewer Children [https://www.amazon.com/Decline-Prosper-Changing-Advantages-Children/dp/3030916103].

Guri Rørtveit [https://www4.uib.no/en/find-employees/guri.rortveit] is a physician and public health researcher, and director general of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health. She is a doctor and professor of family medicine at the University of Bergen.

We discuss:

 * Are we in the midst of a demographic emergency or a new phase of history we don’t yet understand?
 * Why do interventions to increase fertility rarely work?
 * Why Japan might do better with its old age dependency ratio compared to a country such as India.
 * Will the Norwegian population disappear around the year 3200?
 * We discuss some of the depopulation doomer anxieties: no more Einsteins to innovate, no more taxpayers to take care of elderly, reliance on immigration to steady population levels, etc.

21. The Future of Fertility and the Health of Men

Sebastian Junger [https://substack.com/profile/4194267-sebastian-junger] is the author of The Perfect Storm, War, Tribe, Freedom, and most recently In My Time of Dying: How I came face to face with the idea of an afterlife [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/].

We discuss…

* Sebastian’s literary heroes

* Sebastian’s literary motivations

* The state of Sebastian’s “tribal health.”

* The wealthier the neighborhood, the weaker the community?

* How big spaces pull us apart—as discussed in Sebastian’s recent essay, “The Great Abandonment [https://sebastianjunger.substack.com/p/the-great-abandonment].”

* The virtues of stoicism

* American Psychological Association [https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner] on traditional masculinity: “The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful.”

* What’s a definition of what manhood is (existentially speaking)?

* Sebastian’s viral Substack post: Young Men and How the Democrats Lost Them [https://sebastianjunger.substack.com/p/young-men-and-how-the-democrats-lost]

* Harvard Professor pushed out for using words like male and female. [https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/8/11/biology-lecturer-gender-comments-backlash/]

* Fighting words and uplifting voices from Democrats: Talarico on Colbert [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiTJ7Pz_59A] & Jon Ossoff [https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=hzQY53_hpWw&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Facornabbey.com%2F]

* Marie Gluesenkamp Perez on Ezra Klein [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/06/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-marie-gluesenkamp-perez.html]

* Voting, jury duty, and giving blood: symbolic gestures of national connection

* I propose some radical ideas to simulate tribal dynamics in a more populous, peacetime world.

* Sebastian’s NDE (Near Death Experience) which led him down a scientific journey to understand the un-understandable

* I turn on the hot lights and ask Sebastian: are NDE visions a product of biology or a consciousness that’s not entirely contained in the brain?

* How Sebastian explains death and the afterlife to his children.

* Sebatian recommends:

Out of the Wild with Ken Ilgunas is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

20. Sebastian Junger on stoicism, the Democrats' man problem, and what happens when we die

Sebastian Junger [https://open.substack.com/users/4194267-sebastian-junger?utm_source=mentions] is the author of The Perfect Storm [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/], [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/]War [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/], [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/]Tribe [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/], [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/]Freedom [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/], and most recently [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/]In My Time of Dying: How I came face to face with the idea of an afterlife [https://www.sebastianjunger.com/].

We discuss…

 * Sebastian’s literary heroes
 * Sebastian’s literary motivations
 * The state of Sebastian’s “tribal health.”
 * The wealthier the neighborhood, the weaker the community?
 * How big spaces pull us apart—as discussed in Sebastian’s recent essay, “The Great Abandonment [https://sebastianjunger.substack.com/p/the-great-abandonment].”

Ishmael and Queequeg together in bed, as sketched by Rockwell Kent, 1930
 * The virtues of stoicism
 * American Psychological Association [https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner] on traditional masculinity: “The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful.”
 * What’s a definition of what manhood is (existentially speaking)?
 * Sebastian’s viral Substack post: Young Men and How the Democrats Lost Them [https://sebastianjunger.substack.com/p/young-men-and-how-the-democrats-lost]
 * Harvard Professor pushed out for using words like male and female. [https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/8/11/biology-lecturer-gender-comments-backlash/]
 * Fighting words and uplifting voices from Democrats: Talarico on Colbert [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiTJ7Pz_59A] & Jon Ossoff  [https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=hzQY53_hpWw&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Facornabbey.com%2F]
 * Marie Gluesenkamp Perez on Ezra Klein [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/06/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-marie-gluesenkamp-perez.html]

Gluesenkamp for president
 * Voting, jury duty, and giving blood: symbolic gestures of national connection
 * I propose some radical ideas to simulate tribal dynamics in a more populous, peacetime world.
 * Sebastian’s NDE (Near Death Experience) which led him down a scientific journey to understand the un-understandable
 * I turn on the hot lights and ask Sebastian: are NDE visions a product of biology or a consciousness that’s not entirely contained in the brain?
 * How Sebastian explains death and the afterlife to his children.
 * 

Sebastian Junger on stoicism, the Democrats' man problem, and what happens when we die

Jacob Savage [https://open.substack.com/users/276898-jacob-savage?utm_source=mentions] is a former screenwriter, a freelance writer, and a ticket scalper based in Los Angeles. His essay, “The Lost Generation [https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-lost-generation/],” about the systematic discrimination of white millennial men in the industries of academia, media, and publishing, was one of the most talked about essays of 2025.

19. Jacob Savage on (bad) millennial art, being good but not great, & the future of boys and men

Roman Dial [https://www.instagram.com/dialroman/?hl=en]is a scientist, adventurer, and author based in Alaska. His scientific work has appeared in journals like Science [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38386760/] and Nature [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05093-2]. He’s a pioneer of packrafting [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Packrafting-Introduction-Guide-First-Paperback/dp/0974818836]— using lightweight boats to explore remote rivers and landscapes that were previously unreachable. And he’s the author of The Adventurer’s Son [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-adventurers-son-roman-dial?variant=32128674955298], a memoir about the love of exploration, the bond between parent and child, and his two-year search for his son.

Roman Dial on Werner Herzog, protégés, sons, and masculinity as force of nature

Nancy Rommelmann is a journalist and an author of many books [https://www.amazon.com/Bridge-True-Story-Motherhood-Murder-ebook/dp/B073FCH41F/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3CRGU3DWCNGDT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.v2ODV0ImnVea3kWOvvOXNTKOhyCDm_Ha0cly4-Lp9UFxAi5fSy9wJRTW8r2XdVYMOTqASPXmh7KfF2OjJ42vnOikjo8CtZ1Oor_2mS0BcRYPWN58J8cziQ2S80tVydxTIOp4QunlS5SXDYofrOB5bgpAiN5y-Gq8APGMz7pQ827UBtANJicpLphR3ebwvxzeHuIrY9Lm5zRUdp1wVlwEEIXHHd7hWNAKlIoxlkD9OUA.DSp-GkQtN3bU140PnBQA2zxwtAoYReD4nh3tKynsJ_s&dib_tag=se&keywords=to+the+bridge+nancy+rommelmann&qid=1768070589&sprefix=to+the+bridge%2Caps%2C236&sr=8-1], including her latest, Forty Bucks and a Dream [https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Bucks-Dream-Stories-Angeles/dp/B0DGGC2JMN/ref=sr_1_1?crid=20LPCNJ3NDX3H&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.vYqDr8-z8FdPbn7zNxVlZxVRtcQqnRGaaIiZxmgSRbQSYlgITdVaZEERPyJhjiUfg70vCQDL5IUx9k5-4-cu3Jg6xYukMHFVRpKl_j5Vd9AO7oxN7yQ8BeERwdsPULn17QyvwlM3iPZC8_LdGpC85g.ztjpuhkTJ56k1K3t9LpeaTKhfQjnlzUj3qdPV3TDwAo&dib_tag=se&keywords=Forty+Bucks+and+a+Dream&qid=1768070694&sprefix=forty+bucks+and+a+dream%2Caps%2C386&sr=8-1]: a collection of nonfiction pieces about her time in Los Angeles. She is also the co-host of one of my favorite podcasts—Smoke 'Em If You Got 'Em.

We discuss….

 * Nancy’s favorite books [https://x.com/NancyRomm/status/1768272841386955032?s=20].
 * Nobody “snows you” like your kids.
 * What percent sociopath are you?
 * If you got a voucher for a free strip-o-gram, would you take it?

Would you?
 * Team Sarah (yes to love life writing) vs Team Nancy (not as much so)

A book I recommended to Nancy
 * I ask why and how “Sarah and Nancy work as a podcasting duo.”
 * Smoke Em Dramas:
   Sarah and Nancy debating “negging.”
   [https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/p/214-the-trouble-with-writing-about]Nancy and Walter Kirn debating [https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/p/121-walter-kirn-everybodys-learned]Viktor Orbán.
   Sarah’s botched introduction to Michael Tracey.  [https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/p/222-michael-tracey-on-kirk-epstein]
 * Nancy writing about the Ristretto Roasters saga [https://quillette.com/2019/02/18/the-internet-locusts-descend-on-ristretto-roasters/].
 * Where the “Hot for Due Process [https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/p/21-the-destruction-of-others]” swag idea was borne.
 * The art of not falling apart: having something important and unselfish to do?
 * The first of the Musings of the Night Nurse [https://nancyrommelmann.substack.com/p/musings-of-the-night-nurse] series.



Music by Duncan Barrett, who you can follow and listen to, here [https://duncanbarrett.bandcamp.com/] and here [https://www.instagram.com/duncan.e.barrett/].

Nancy Rommelmann on podcasting, getting cancelled, and sympathizing with straight white guys 

Sean Gerrity is the co-founder and former CEO of American Prairie [https://americanprairie.org/]—a giant wildlife refuge in the making in Montana, which I hiked and kayaked this past August. Sean is the host of The Answers Are Out There [https://www.theanswersareouttherepodcast.net/] podcast in which he interviews leaders who’ve taken on bold conservation projects. He’s the author of Wild on Purpose: The American Prairie Story and the Art of Thinking Bigger [https://www.torreyhouse.org/wild-on-purpose].

 * Some of Sean’s favorite things: musician Ry Cooder, Sapiens by Yoval Noah Hariri, Travels with Charley, East of Eden, A Short Walk In the Hindu Kush by Eric Newby, Decisive by Chip and Dan Heath, and…
 * Sean’s podcast interview [https://www.theanswersareouttherepodcast.net/podcast/episode11] with Violet Sage Walker — a Northern Chumash Tribal Leader — celebrating America’s Newest Large-Scale Marine Sanctuary.
 * Are we in a rewilding renaissance?
 * How well known is American Prairie? Is it’s under-knownness due to the noise of the modern day information flow?
 * Is today the best of times (lots of exciting conservation opportunities) and the worst of times (the overwhelming negativity funneled into our brains).
 * 192 out of 196 countries signing up to achieve vision of 30% of the world saved for nature by 2030. [https://www.nature.org/en-us/what-we-do/our-priorities/protect-water-and-land/land-and-water-stories/committing-to-30x30/]
 * The big four things for helping the environment:    
   * Stabilize global human population
   * Accelerate transition to green energy
   * Rewild
   * Redo how we do agriculture
   
    

 * Fundraising: is it as unpleasant as it sounds?
 * The art of risk-taking—analyze the risk so deeply the risk is no longer a risk?
 * Do our schools need to teach “risk analysis” in their curriculums?
 * MT. Gov. Greg Gianforte’s letter [https://gov.mt.gov/_docs/governor/20250905MontanaLettertoSecretaryBurgum.pdf] to the BLM opposing American Prairie’s use of bison.
 * I pitch a book idea to Sean.
 * American Prairie’s “Wild Sky” program [https://americanprairie.org/project/wild-sky/], which involves paying landowners for photographic evidence of wildlife on their property, plus some wildlife friendly fencing [https://americanprairie.org/project/habitat-connectivity/].
 * How there could be 30-40 more American Prairie-like projects, just across the American West.
 * Chumash National Marine Sanctuary [https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/chumash-heritage/]—4500 square miles of protecting marine habitat.
 * Klamath River Dam Removal—over 400 miles of river protected.
 * On how originality is overrated.
 * Wallis Annenberg Wildlife Crossing:
 * George Catlin proposing a park way back in the 1830s [https://www.thoughtco.com/proposed-creation-of-national-parks-1773620].
 * The Tarras Valley Nature Reserve [https://www.tarrasvalleynaturereserve.org/] project. Here’s Sean’s podcast interview [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-answers-are-out-there-podcast/id1740043700?i=1000662725494]with them.
 * Will American Prairie need to evolve into more like a multi-entity committee in the future?
 * I get Sean’s thoughts on de-extinction.

16. Sean Gerrity on the rewilding renaissance

Melanie Kaplan’ [https://melaniedgkaplan.com/]s work has appeared in The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and National Parks magazine. She’s a former Knight Science Journalism fellow at MIT. Her new book, Lab Dog [https://melaniedgkaplan.com/book.html], tells the story of Hammy — a beagle rescued from a research lab — and follows Melanie’s journey to uncover what really happens to the thousands of dogs used in biomedical and consumer testing in the United States.

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We discuss…

 * The first non-humans we fell in love with.
 * What have we gotten from testing lab animals?

Charles Herbert Best (left) und Frederick Grant Banting [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666970621000494#fig0001] (right) with one of their experimental dogs (probably summer 1921).
 * Trump admin [https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-announces-plan-phase-out-animal-testing-requirement-monoclonal-antibodies-and-other-drugs]. moving us away from animal research?
 * What products are still being used on lab dogs? (Bug spray)
 * How to write a book about hard things (animal torture) and make it readable.

 * What’s so special about beagles?
 * I share my own non-human love stories.
 * How my parents didn’t curate my boyhood media consumption, leading to scenes like this one being forever burned into my memory:

Melanie recommends
 * Should there be a memorial for all the lab animals?
 * 
 * Ken wonders if Melanie has a long roster of correspondents, thereby possibly rendering their penpalship insignificant.
 * Who would Melanie be penpals with, living or dead, if she had the choice?
 * Who is the grand-mommy of book blurbers?
 * What is the real America (grocery stores vs. newsfeeds)?
 * Marc Maron’s final podcast with Barack Obama [https://www.wtfpod.com/podcast/episode-1686-barack-obama].
 * What’s in a “Canadiano?”

15. Melanie D.G. Kaplan on lab animals, non-human friends, & penpals

Louis Dalton Hall [https://www.louisdhall.com/about] is the author of In Green: Two Horses, Two Strangers, a Journey to an end of the Land [https://www.duckworthbooks.co.uk/book/in-green/?srsltid=AfmBOorqBn7imzzJWHngRkQ3bWeWrjZZ1KGeQ8viCD1wSTFddvKS-B65]. He is also the founder of Big Hoof [https://www.thebighoof.com/], an organization that organizes horseback rides and raises money for charity. We discuss:

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 * The Great Plains Trail [https://www.greatplainstrail.org/gpt-map/]. (Here’s my old Backpacker article on the GPT [https://www.backpacker.com/trips/great-plains-trail/].)
 * What sets Fifers apart from the rest of the Scottish?

Dunfermline Abbey, in Fife
 * Louis’s travel writing inspirations: Black Spring by Henry Miller; As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning by Laurie Lee; Sophy Roberts [https://www.sophyroberts.com/]; Jan Brokken [https://www.janbrokken.nl/biografie/]; Bruce Chatwin.
 * Is Don Quixote still readable?
 * What is our relationship with the horse? Masters/parents/friends?
 * I ask Louis some intrusive questions like: What do you think about the shape your life is taking? Do you have a rich uncle?
 * The difficulty of writing about a romantic experience.
 * Guilt as a motivational force.
 * Louis’s next adventure. (Mules and possibly America.)



15. Louis Dalton Hall on horses, writing, and travel 

Out of the Wild is a podcast hosted by writer Ken Ilgunas. We discuss nature, adventure, simple living, culture, history, and politics. 

https://kenilgunas.substack.com