Transcript
Speaker: There more than enough room to be barring when you believe it. Listen, come and talk to a human.
Speaker: Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of Where's Your Humanity. i'm your host, Gail Fraser, and I am so excited to welcome this week's guest, Erin Kuster. She is a copywriter and content writer for Sex Positive Brands. businesses, and content creators. She specializes in helping businesses talk about taboo, sensitive, and often misunderstood topics with clarity, personality, and absolutely zero shame. She also has an unhealthy obsession with diet Pepsi and Dachshunds, which I can re relate to the latter for sure. Welcome, Erin. Yay. Thanks for having me.
Speaker: i would say if this was afternoon, i would have a Diet Pepsi with me. But because it's 10 a.m., m I have a coffee instead. We're starting the day, easing into the day. Diet Pepsi comes later.
Speaker: Yeah. Literally, as soon as I hit noon, I'm like, Diet Pepsi time. It's time. but Tell me a little bit about Erin behind the scenes. Ooh, okay. I feel like i never get to talk about my actual, like,
Speaker: background that led me to like sex positive copywriting. But I'm a language nerd and a grammar enthusiast. I have a master's degree in applied linguistics and I taught language and grammar, like English language and grammar for like 10 years, which informs...
Speaker: everything in my business as a previous like teacher. um I'm also a giant book nerd And like I said, a wiener dog enthusiast. I have my wiener dogs right here so they may start barking. um Obsessed with coffee and a knitting nerd also. And I know you're a knitting nerd too. And I have my knitting right here like next to me. i was like, oh, maybe I should knit while we're recording um because it's just a plain scarf. um It's not very exciting. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I think I'm a knit and yap kind of person myself as well. Yeah, i if I'm doing like a coffee chat with people, I am almost always like knitting like under my camera because it helps me focus, which probably also helps you as a fellow like ADHD knitting girly. Yes, a thousand percent, especially if I'm just on a call where I have to like listen and absorb knowledge and not necessarily participate or facilitate. Like without my knitting, nothing is being absorbed.
Speaker: Yeah, if I'm not in charge, then I'm knitting during yeah our conversation. I hear that 100%. Well, tell me a little bit about your background. I know you said you don't get to talk about this often, but kind of what took you from you know being this language nerd? What was your career journey like to get to where you are now?
Speaker: Ooh, okay. um I have to start in college because I've always been a school nerd, school enthusiast. I loved being in school. um like I'm just one of those horrible people who just like was obsessed with school and was teacher's pet and all of that.
Speaker: um So I studied anthropology in college and then realized, like what am I going to do with an anthropology degree? um I need to do something else. So I started teaching English as a second language at my college that I graduated from.
Speaker: And I had a certificate that I got through like a study abroad program. And then I realized, well, they're never going to hire me full time um without a master's degree. So I'm going to go get a master's degree. So I got a master's degree in applied linguistics and taught during that. And then I continued teaching at university.
Speaker: um So I was like a college professor of English as a second language for the first 10 years of my career, like literally straight out of college. And and Yeah, I spent that whole time teaching like reading skills, writing skills, studying skills, language skills.
Speaker: um But also the fun part was teaching like culture to students because I worked with international students who came to the US. And I feel like I still get to do a lot of that like kind of cultural stuff as a copywriter. Yeah.
Speaker: But then I burned out on teaching. Like all teachers I know, literally every single teacher I know is not teaching anymore um because we've all burned out, especially during COVID. So during COVID, I made a career pivot to instructional design, which is sort of the back end of teaching. It's designing curriculum, designing lessons, designing like learning experiences without actually having to facilitate the learning itself, which is still something I really, really, really love. I love creating learning experiences without actually having to deliver them myself. Because, yeah, I don't I would ever go back to a classroom and I would never teach again unless it was something like informal and fun, like a knitting class.
Speaker: Yeah, totally. That resonates with so many people that I know who have left teaching since COVID. My mother-in-law retired early in 2021 for that same reason. And just know so many people who have left teaching because it's kind of a thankless job in the U.S. The pay is bad and the hours are long. And I didn't even have to deal with like the K through 12 school system because I taught at colleges. And so I didn't have to deal with parents unless there were some very weird parents. I have had to deal with weird clingy parents who like follow their students to the United States. um
Speaker: Yeah, I never had to deal with like kind of government regulations on what I could or couldn't teach. So like I feel like even my life as a professor was a lot easier K-12 teachers experience every day. um but would never i don't understand how anyone can be a K-12 teacher. like It's so difficult. If you're listening to this and you have kids who are in the K-12 system, like please go out and buy your kid's teacher like a coffee like a Starbucks gift card or an energy drink or something because I don't know how they're holding it together.
Speaker: I have no idea how they're holding it together. i am like also a child-free woman and my sibling just had a child and most of our friends have kids. And I'm like, I have no idea how you do that.
Speaker: yeah But like, I'm so impressed people who are great with kids and like on a classroom level, great at managing lots of tiny littles. Like I don't have that in me and I never have. um,
Speaker: And i'm I'm so impressed by it. it is such a skill that I feel like you either have or you don't. It's like 100,000 skills wrapped into one. And I'm like, you can either teach or you can control the classroom. I don't know how you can do both. So yeah, even though I did burn out from like being a professor, I think it's still nothing compared to like K-12. education and burnout. That's so real. Yeah. College is just kind of a different animal and like higher education yeah system is also kind of ah a whole world in and of itself. So now are you still doing your instructional design? Is that your current nine to five? Because I know you work a nine to five in addition to after dark copy.
Speaker: Yeah. Instructional design is my nine to five job. Luckily, My company I work for is really great with like flexibility. Like my manager is not a micromanager. So like as long as we get our work done, they don't really care like our working hours or how long we're at our computer. um Because I think if I had a different work from home job, I definitely would not be able to make like.
Speaker: my business and my job work at the same time. Yeah. Shout out to managers who focus on whether or not you're doing good work and not whether or not you're online. Always green circle on in teams.
Speaker: Yeah. And i actually just got a new manager this year and my teammate like text messaged me when our old manager was like, hey, I'm leaving. um My teammate texted me and she's like, you either you have to apply to be our manager Like I cannot I cannot take like breaking in another manager and hoping that they're like cool and flexible and just like let us do our thing. um And I was like, I'm not going to be the manager, but I'm happy with my current manager. How long have you had after dark copy now? I feel like we started our businesses kind of around the same time.
Speaker: um So technically, After Dark has been in business for about a year. But before then, I did a couple years with my previous branding. So i was still doing copywriting, but under a different name and different identity. um And then even before that, I was doing like regular freelance writing. So being a college professor doesn't pay that much. um So I've always done freelance writing and editing on the side.
Speaker: um So, yeah, I think, yeah, I celebrated After Dark's like one year birthday this year in June um because I decided Pride was like going to be the best time to celebrate my one year birthday.
Speaker: Sounds like you've kind of juggled both for a long time now. What has been your experience having both the nine to five and whole business on the side. Running a business is a whole beast in and of itself.
Speaker: It's been a really steep learning curve, especially on the business side because I've had to learn about things like onboarding and creating like a client experience. And I just tell clients directly like, hey, I also work a full time job. So if you can't get a hold of me immediately, like at noon or something,
Speaker: it's because I'm in a meeting or like I'm not available. So I do tell people directly like, hey, I'm going to answer you before 8 a.m. or after 5 p.m. because I do have to protect my like corporate nine to five business hours as well. But yeah, i mean, thankfully, like my nine to five is like I'm really good at it. I'm good at what I do. And so therefore, it doesn't take up all of my day, if that makes sense. Like I can do things pretty quickly and then make time for after dark Yeah.
Speaker: What have been your biggest unexpected challenges? i know you said juggling the business side is new and challenging, but like what have been the biggest surprises or the biggest things you're just like, whoa, I am in over my head. i think client experiences is something new because previously as a freelancer,
Speaker: like client experience is not something I would do because people would onboard me onto their team. Like they had something they were working on. So they're like, here's our workflow. Here's information we need from you. We need you to put together an invoice. um So now – When clients are coming to me and I'm in charge of like their experience, I'm like, oh I need a questionnaire. I need I want to have my branding available. Like I want things to look nice. I want things to be automated so they're not like waiting around for me forever for certain things. So I started using Dubsado this year, and that has been a really steep like learning curve. It's just figuring out all the different functionalities and like a client relationship management system. what it can do, what i want it to do, what my systems will look like. So yeah, I know you're systems person, but definitely systems has been like the biggest issue that I've had to figure out this year.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think that so many entrepreneurs, especially in creative fields, struggle with that as well. Like that's going to be a biggest challenge for a lot of people when they start their business is that like you've never used a tool like a CRM before. And so it's normal to... Be like, wait, how do I do this? What should I be doing? What are other people doing? and making those tweaks as you're also learning how to use the tool in and of itself and also doing client work and nine to five and the balance of it all can just be really challenging for people. And, you know, that's why I do what I do to help alleviate some creatives when they're just like, i don't have time for this.
Speaker: Yeah. The figure how to like actually run the business aspect has been the most difficult because like the writing is easy. Like I can do the writing in a week for a web website, but doing like the invoicing, the follow-up, the emailing, the onboarding, um like responding to inquiry forms. and like, that's all been a whole new thing.
Speaker: Yeah. Like I said, super normal coming into your like, I know my creative stuff. I know what I'm doing. i know how to do this job. And that's what most people struggle with is the like, but how do I do the business part of it and the systems part of it?
Speaker: Because I have to do that to get paid and for people to recommend me and like their experience working with me and all those good things. Yeah. And then if you want to get paid more and you raise your prices, you have to like have the client experience to match that. So that's like what I've been working on this year is raising prices and then also raising like the experience.
Speaker: Hell yeah. Tell me a little bit more about how you fell into your current niche of working with sex positive brands. Yeah. It was kind of a journey from my old branding to my After Dark branding. So my old branding for copywriting was just Erin Kuster Creative, which is the most uncreative, uninteresting name ever.
Speaker: um And I had like branding that really reflected me at the time. It was really cutesy. It was really feminine. It was like pink and orange and like light green. And I found that I was getting a lot of wrong fit clients with that branding. um clients that I didn't want to work with, clients where our values didn't really align, or I didn't kind of like love their business model or something like that. And then plus my dad and my grandmother followed my Instagram account. They were like so interested in my business, but I'm like, I can't give my actual spicy takes. Like when they follow me, I can't say what I actually want to say.
Speaker: So I felt like my branding was holding me back from the clients that I wanted to work with And from like fully expressing myself in the voice that I wanted to use. So I really sat down and was like, okay, I need to rebrand, but I don't know, you know, what I want to do with that. Everyone has a niche. Everyone has like a specific type of client they work with. So I kind of sat down and thought about what types of clients I wanted to work with.
Speaker: And no offense to other copywriters and professionals, but every like type of client I thought about sounded so incredibly boring to me. I'm like, Do I want to work with one specific type of business like photographers or wedding professionals or accountants? And like no offense to anyone who works with those businesses, but they just weren't for me. I'm like, I'm totally uninterested in working with those types of clients. And I sat down and thought about my ideal client. and i was like, i want to work with escorts.
Speaker: I think that'd be so fun and interesting to write like copy for escorts. I was like, why not? I'm going to just do that. So I did some research. There aren't that many other like sex positive copywriters. I only know one other one and we're friends. So like it's all good.
Speaker: But i was like, yeah, there seems to be a need for people who can write about like sex and uncomfortable topics kind of openly because there are tons of sex businesses and someone has to write for them without like making it weird.
Speaker: so i was like, you know what? I'm going to be a sex copywriter. So I just kind of decided that was going to be my thing and just made it my thing. and then move forward with like doing my rebrand, doing my website and just going all in on like the sex positive clients.
Speaker: What has your experience been like now that you've found your niche and started working with clients now for a little over a year in that industry? um So I actually, i would say my clients are mostly non like spicy clients. Like I work with a lot of sort of regular businesses and But they have a spicy attitude is how I describe them.
Speaker: So even if I'm not working with just like sex workers or just sex positive clients, I'm still working with people who now I know they align with my values. They're like sex work is real work.
Speaker: Like everyone deserves basic human rights. So even if they're not like spicy clients, they're still aligned to like people that I actually want to work with. Totally. And I think you hit on something that a lot of people listening are probably thinking about when it comes to sex positive work is that this is a really like socially taboo topic and the humanity is so often stripped from sex workers. And I'm really curious, your clients are coming to you because they know that you're just like sex positive there for them, able to write that copy and excited about it. But how are you thinking about it when it comes to making that more human and more real for people?
Speaker: Yeah. So, I mean, i think a lot of people don't really understand like sex work as an industry um and kind of like what it looks like. And all of my clients that I work with are just people doing their jobs. So they have the same concerns as everyone else when they're hiring a copywriter. Like you're hiring someone to do marketing for your business. And most of the clients I've worked with run their like escorting business or sex work business as a business. So they have like a stage name or like like a business name that they use. They have a branding identity. they
Speaker: just want support with like creating a brand voice and getting discovered like in search engine results. They all have like the same concerns that everyone else has when it comes to marketing. I just got an inquiry this morning and I was reading through it and they were saying like, oh my gosh, I hired someone to do my website, but they keep falling behind. And I'm like, I'm losing my mind. i'm like losing money because my website isn't like up and running. And I'm like, yeah, that's the same concern.
Speaker: Everyone has, whether you are like a sex work business or just a regular business. They're just I think you hit on something good there, too, which is like they're just people running a business.
Speaker: And they also have a brand identity in the same way that we both do. Any other business is going to. And I think what gets misconstrued a lot is, and this happens to regular business owners, but not to the same degree, but gets misconstrued a lot as like, this is their entire personality and this is their entire life and the only thing they think about and whatever. And it's so unfair and annoying because... is
Speaker: they're running a brand like they're intentionally putting out a certain type of content that fits into the container of their brand that's for a specific audience just like anyone else would.
Speaker: Yeah. And they're also like they've got full time lives, too. Like I've had clients who are like do this on the side as they like are building up their own type of business. I had one who was like a part time student. They're like, you know, I'm going to school, but then I'm also doing escorting to like make money to pay for school.
Speaker: A lot of them have partners and kids. So like they're just trying to run their business alongside like living their actual life. So same thing where we don't do our business all the time, like they also don't do their business all the time. They're trying to like automate things and make things easier so they can run their business.
Speaker: They can market online without having to like put as much effort into it. I think people would be surprised to find out that writing escort copy isn't actually that sexy. Like I do a lot of research into competitors. I do a lot of research into their brand voice. And a lot of the writing I do is logistics.
Speaker: Thinking about like you as a systems person or someone who is a photographer or someone who runs whatever kind of creative service, they have to tell their clients how to get in touch. How does payment work?
Speaker: How long is your timeline? I have to write all the same things for escorts. So like how to pay a deposit, what it looks like when they're traveling, what different rates they offer, things like that. It's very non-sexy. It's just all logistics so that they can get paid to do what they're doing.
Speaker: How does it work with ah SEO? Because I know that a lot of search engines, the algorithm in general, censors lot of sex positive copy. Like even the word sex is usually censored in like TikTok, Instagram, et cetera, where a lot of these, especially if they're a content creator to market their business, like get censored out. How do you have to change your approach to get them visible to the audiences that want to see them?
Speaker: Yeah, SEO is really difficult. It's a lot easier when I work with like sex positive businesses that aren't escorts in particular. It's like a whole different thing for escorts and sex workers because there are different um like directory websites and there are different SEO um businesses that focus on like escorts in particular. So like we're never going to beat like someone who's got a bigger budget and can actually hire like an SEO like management firm, totally I guess. But I do put in a lot of research into keywords. We make sure we focus on their location because location is super important.
Speaker: because they're a location-based business. But yeah, SEO is difficult in that like escorting is kind of a saturated business. Like if you are looking for an escort in a major city like London or New York, you're going to get pages and pages and pages of...
Speaker: options like you're not going to lack options but also people will google anything so there is data on like what keywords are going to work best for like escorts or sex workers or sex positive businesses like even just looking at my own seo data like my google search console keywords i'm like oh yeah people will google literally anything Oh, yeah. um like Yeah. So I've seen everything when it comes to like Google keywords that people are actually using to find actual like service providers.
Speaker: Totally. And it's those are the same things that we're doing for all of our ah SEO as well in any business is like, OK, what are people looking for when they're trying to find someone like me? Yeah. i always think of like escorts as kind of like photography and that both markets are really saturated and it's hard to break through an SEO um and that you have to have a really specific niche or like so a specific aspect that people are searching for. So no one's searching for just photographer. It's like family portrait photographer or elopement photographer. The same thing with escorts. It's not just like escort. People are searching for a specific type. Yeah, I do all all kinds of like SEO research and it's kind of eye opening just to see what people are like Googling as far as like sex work.
Speaker: No, I can of only imagine the different types of things that you're seeing and being surprised by in your industry too. Yeah. And I'm learning a lot about like different kinks that people have and stuff. I'm like, I didn't know this was a thing until I work with like an escort who specializes in that specific kink. And I'm like, okay, well, I've learned a lot today, which is great because I like learning, but I am still surprised by some of the things I find out. I'm not judgmental. I'm just like, oh, okay. Like,
Speaker: Yeah, I had no idea this was a thing people enjoyed, but if they enjoy it and they want to buy it from you, fine. Great. Then I'll make sure they can find you. Yeah. Yeah. Just important to remember that these people are running a business. They want to get found for what they have expertise in.
Speaker: And there's an industry and there's demand for it in the same way that there are demand for both of our businesses, there are demand for accountants. there like There's demand in this industry. Otherwise, it wouldn't exist. Oh, yeah. Huge demand. And I think one of the things that people get most surprised by when I talk to like non-business owners about what I do, like I go to a knitting group every Saturday and they're like, oh, Erin, what do you do for work? And I'm like, I write about sex.
Speaker: um And they're like, OK, cool. Like people are always surprised to find out that there are sex workers in their town. Oh, yeah. They're like, no, that's only a thing in like big cities. I'm like, no, there are definitely sex workers in that like little small town you live in There are sex workers in the college town I live in Like they're everywhere. um Like people are just surprised to find that out because they don't really think about it.
Speaker: Or they have like this weird sort of detached view of sex work as like a thing that happens elsewhere. Like it doesn't happen. That's for other people and other cities and where it's almost like an ignorance of it existing. Yeah. Or they think about it in like a purely hypothetical manner because they just haven't thought about the realities of like people actually doing sex work to make money. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it's always an interesting conversation that I have with people. they're like kind of shocked to find out that people do sex work. And that they need someone to write about it Yeah. I want to kind of pivot our conversation too, because i know you've worked with a lot of different types of businesses and done a lot of different copywriting for websites and for content.
Speaker: A lot of business owners are going to be listening to this from different creative industries. What are things that people might not be thinking about when it comes to their copy that they should absolutely be thinking about when it comes to their copy? Yeah.
Speaker: Ooh, it's a good question because there are as many opinions on that as there are copywriters. Like we're all going to have a different opinion on what you should or shouldn't be doing in your copy. But I always tell people that your copy could be meaner.
Speaker: Like I think it could be cuntier. Like I just think a lot of copy is really like soft and boring. Like I say that one of my specialties is hard to market businesses. So that includes other businesses outside of like sex workers. um But I wrote a website for a dementia care facility.
Speaker: And we very specifically said, like me and the web designer, we're like absolutely like no soft copy, like nothing that's kind of like sweet and like kind of like condescending almost. I think some copy leans too far into like being nice and that ends up being like kind of condescending and boring. It's too soft. Like, yeah you know sorry folks, like your copy I think needs to be meaner. It needs to tell people directly what you do, how you do it and who you do it for.
Speaker: And yeah, I think you could add a lot more cuntiness to your copy. Yeah. i love that take so much. I think the dementia care facility is such an interesting one for me because that's so true. Like when you said that, I immediately was like, yeah all of them are like, we're going to take such good care of your like of your grandma. And we have the best facility and we have whatever.
Speaker: But the reality is like my grandma had dementia and was in a care facility. and the realities of it is like it's so much work for the caretaker. It's so many big emotions that they're navigating with like their parent or beloved family member or whoever that they're putting in this facility. It's scary. It's expensive. It's overwhelming. and This person is changing and behaving differently than they're used to. And there are a lot of big emotions that come with that. And I think that you're so right that like healthcare industries in general do such a disservice to themselves by just being like, we just would take such good care of you, yeah such good care of your grandma. Like,
Speaker: Yeah, like i do need someone to take care of this person, but that's not what's like filling my mind all the time. Yeah. One of the messaging pillars that we worked on with like this was like a white label process. So I worked with a web designer who had already done like the messaging for them. And one of the messaging tenants was just like, hey, I know you're finding this website at 2 a.m. when you're spiraling out about like your dad's care and like we're here for you, but we understand it's not fun like trying to find a dementia care facility. And we approached it very like matter of fact. We didn't beat around the bush. We said, hey, we offer post-death care as well. like We make sure we clean up your loved one. We make sure we prepare them to be sent to like the funeral home.
Speaker: and I'm like, yeah, like dementia care is expensive. It's not fun. The people doing it may love what they're doing, but it's a harsh reality. And I'm like, people don't want to be spoken down to when they're researching dementia care for their loved one. Like you don't need to beat around the bush when you're telling them how much it's going to cost. They just want to know how much it's going to cost. So i was like, yeah, love it. They want to know what their experience is going to be like too because so much of the copy that like I can imagine and think of, of like it's so focused on like what the the patient or the client is going to experience rather than – Like if you have a loved one with dementia and you're looking for a care facility, they're not the ones doing the looking like you're the one doing the looking and you're the one making medical decisions most of the time. you You know, like you want to make sure that you're going to have a good experience, too, and not just be like in a whole runaround.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm like, I know exactly who this client is for the dementia care facility. And it's not the patient. It's the oldest daughter in the family. I'm like, I know her because I'm the oldest daughter. And I know exactly what she's thinking. And she doesn't want bullshit on the website. She just wants to know the information and know what the next steps are.
Speaker: So it sounds a little weird to be like, oh, a dementia care facility was one of my favorite projects to work on. But it really was because I got a chance to sort of like break out of the typical voice for the health care industry and be like, no, we're going to make this country as as country as you can make like dementia care.
Speaker: Tell me about your process, because as a copywriter, you kind of have to get into their brain and understand how they think, how they talk, what they would be talking about, who their client is. What's your process as a writer to get into their persona to share their message?
Speaker: I mean, I have a really, really long onboarding form that's like really in depth, which I'm sure all copywriters have. But I like to ask some like little like oddball questions, I guess. One of my questions is like, if your brand was at a party, like who would they be? Like what role do they have? Like at a house party or something? I ask clients to create like a playlist for me. I'm like, give me three or four songs that kind of like represent your brand.
Speaker: brand. I used to ask people if their brand was like a cocktail or a mocktail, like what would it be? But I don't ask anymore because most of my clients don't drink, which is something that people are also surprised to find out about like the sex work industry that most of my clients are sober. So I stopped asking that. But oh gosh, how do I get into their minds? Just like talking to people and kind of understanding the way that they speak about their business and what they do. So I can kind of make sure I'm putting their real voice into their copy because I don't want people to read their website and then be surprised that a client
Speaker: is like different than what their copy says about them, if that makes sense. Absolutely. And I also, one of the things that I love doing is not just creating like messaging pillars for clients, but adding symbols for those messaging pillars. So I don't just say like, oh, here are the three like messaging pillars for your website and your copy. I create like little symbols for them so they can kind of like visualize that throughout their copy. So for a client that I just worked on, one of her symbols was lightning because she was like,
Speaker: So electric, like the way that she talked, she was so passionate. Her like brand vibe is not just bold. It was like electric. So I'm like, we need to find little moments in your copy to add electricity to what we're saying.
Speaker: So, yeah, it's not just plain old boring messaging pillars, but I'm like, oh, here's where we can add some electricity. Here's where we can add some like chrysalis energy. Chrysalis was another like symbol I just worked on earlier this summer. yeah I don't know if that actually answers the question because it is really hard to get into people's brains as a copywriter. But I feel like I do a pretty good job of it. I'm always so impressed by copywriters because i I'm a talker. I'm not really a writer. i have such a hard time putting what I do into words that are meaningful to people. And I worked with a copywriter for my website. Yeah. Exactly to your point. People compliment me all the time. I'm like, I read your website and then I met you and it was exactly what I was expecting.
Speaker: Or they, you know, see my social media. I had a brand designer design my brand. Obviously, i helped inform that because I'm like, here's what I want it to feel like. Yeah. i'm so just impressed by people who can, like, I read my copy and I was like, this sounds way better and way more like me than if I'd written it myself. Oh my gosh, yeah.
Speaker: I'm the opposite. I'm, i like, I am a talker, but I don't like talking as my main medium because I can go back and, like, change things in writing. So as I'm talking, if I feel like I'm saying something dumb or can't figure out what I want to say, I'm like, let me write this down because then I can go back and edit it to say what I actually want to say. So part of my process like as a copywriter is what I call just like word vomiting, where i just write everything I want a client's like reader to know. and it's just like, it doesn't make sense. It's just notes. It's a word vomit. um And then I go back and clean it up to make it actually like sound nice and sell what they're selling and be like SEO friendly. but yeah, the first draft is rough. it's I would never show it to anyone.
Speaker: And I think that's like the best way to even for myself when I'm writing a blog or an email or whatever, I'm just like, I just have to get the thoughts out. As ADHD-er, my brain is just a swirl of thoughts, feelings, emotions, things that I'm trying to remember and not forget.
Speaker: And in order to like get them out, I have to write them. Otherwise, they're just all swirling together and nonsensical. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And being able to just like write it out and say, here's here's what we think and then go back and pick through it and be like, OK, yeah, here's the bit work.
Speaker: What's this actual vision? Yeah, I keep a note on my phone for all of my clients because I'll just be like in the grocery store or on my walking pad or reading a book and just randomly think of something for them, for their website and be like, I got to write this down like immediately. And I'll usually just like dictate it into my phone. So I leave myself like a little voice breadcrumbs that I then incorporate later into like their actual website copy, which is why I can never, ever offer like an hourly rate for clients because how am I supposed to bill for like
Speaker: three minutes while I'm on my walking pad and thinking about your website. would just be impossible. But yeah, just like constantly I'm like randomly like writing down ideas for clients.
Speaker: No, I resonate with that so much. And I do the same thing with my systems or an email template that they think they should have or their proposal or what we should be doing of like you have so many of those random thoughts that you're in the shower or you're on your walk or places where you can think and process outside of looking at screen. and I really don't recommend to any ADHD or to Bill Hourly because I don't think it makes any sense for how our brains work and just becomes like complicated and unfair to either you or the client or both.
Speaker: Yeah, like let me just bill you for the 15 minutes where I was thinking about your brand before falling asleep at night. Like, yeah, like how do I bill for that? I don't think I can. As we kind of come to the end of our episode.
Speaker: I want to give you a chance to stand on your soapbox and share your humanity hot take. Does it have to be like business related? It can be anything. Okay. It can be anything.
Speaker: My humanity hot take is that I think people are performing whimsy instead of like actually enjoying whimsical moments in their life. Say more.
Speaker: Yeah. I spent a lot of time on TikTok, which is probably not great for my brain, but there's been like a trend of whimsy lately. I don't know you make whimsy into a trend, but people are like whimsy max thing. People are monetizing it. If there's a buzzword, people will monetize it.
Speaker: They're like, here's how I add whimsy to my life. Like they're making content about it. And I think making content about whimsy antithetical to actual whimsy itself. Like I don't think they go together.
Speaker: Because I think whimsy has an essence of spontaneity to it. i don't think you can plan whimsy. So yeah, I think people are performatively doing whimsical things without actually enjoying like the whimsy in their life.
Speaker: I ah well, I was going to say I 100 percent agree. I agree like 80 percent. i think that you can plan whimsy as an ADHD year where I'm like, I have this crazy, chaotic idea and I'm going to do it right now.
Speaker: In my head, that's planning because that's how my brain works, where I'm just like, I had this thought and now that's a plan. Well, I think ADHDers are like inherently spontaneous anyway. They're inherently whimsical. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I see a lot of people like on TikTok kind of like planning out whimsy. Like I spend a lot of time on BookTok because I have a BookTok account and people are really like, here's my fall like whimsical book reading list.
Speaker: And I'm like, I don't – for me personally, that doesn't seem fun to like pre-plan a whimsical book reading list. Yeah. Versus if you like go to a bookstore and a bookseller is like, oh my God, I love this book so much. You should read it. And then you buy it and go to the coffee shop next door and you get yourself a nice little treat. I'm like, that's more whimsical because you're just doing it in the moment. You're like, yeah, I'll buy this random book and then go get a little sweet treat and a coffee. Yeah, I think people are documenting their whimsy too much. And consumerizing absolutely.
Speaker: of like, here I bought these 50 things for my house yeah that are going to end in a landfill in 30 days to make my life more whimsical.
Speaker: Yeah, I think true whimsy, especially when it comes to your house, is just like random crap that ends up in your house but has a story behind it. Yeah. Like people are trying to recreate the sort of like whims like whimsy goth from like the 90s or just like like whimsy from pre-internet and those things are whimsical because they're random stuff that ended up in your house like your kid had a friend over who like left this weird action figure inside of your plant and then you never got rid of it so 20 years later you have like this gi joe that just like lives in your plant and you're like where did this come from so weird because it just happened like
Speaker: Yeah. i don't know. I'm very pro-whimsy, but like anti-documenting whimsy, if that makes sense. I think it totally makes sense. Have you had any memorable whimsical moments lately in your life?
Speaker: I mean, yeah. I just went on vacation a couple weeks ago, and I think I picked up my phone like three times maybe on vacation. Oh, yeah. And just enjoyed being on vacation. We rented a beach house and we had these neighbors that were like a riot. Like they were so weird and so funny and like so interesting. And we just enjoyed our time with like our random weird neighbors. And now they'll be in our stories when we tell our vacation stories. Be like, yeah, remember that weird family from New Jersey that was like our neighbor? And then
Speaker: My husband and i we were driving around on vacation and we found this like little cottage that was a bookstore and had all these like flowers. And then you could go walk in the garden behind the cottage. I'm like, this is so cute. And I just enjoyed it without like taking pictures or video of it. I'm like, I'm just going to enjoy this weird little random cottage book bookstore.
Speaker: vacation such like a great way for us chronically online slash have to be online for our business people because it is a time where you've kind of mentally offloaded your online presence for a week or three days or however long you're gone that you get to experience life in such a life in such a non-online way which I also contributes to whimsy in a big way Yeah, there are also a couple times this summer where we were traveling and we just like happened upon street festivals.
Speaker: Like we didn't know they were happening, but we just went and enjoyed them. But I feel like people would probably make like TikToks about them. Like, hey, look at this random street festival we happened on.
Speaker: And I was like, no, going to put my phone away and just like enjoy this weird neighborhood tradition that we just happened to stumble upon. That's so fun. Well, Erin, thank you so much for being here and for sharing all of your hot takes.
Speaker: Where can people find you and learn more about your work? You can find me on my website, which is afterdarkcopy.com. You can also find me on threads saying any old random nonsense. There is no filter between my brain and what I put on threads. um That is also afterdarkcopy. And you can find me on Instagram for slightly more edited hot takes. um Also afterdarkcopy.
Speaker: Love it. Well, thanks for being here. er Yeah, thank you Thank you so much for listening. You can find this episode and more wherever you listen to podcasts. And you can follow us on Instagram at Where Is Your Humanity Pod.
Speaker: Our lovely theme music is created by Emily Bjorki. And you can listen to her new single No Angel out now and her upcoming album Are You Going to Heaven or Hell out on October fifteen For more information about me, Gail, and the work that I do, you can go to worksimple.io, my website, or you can follow me on all the platforms, Instagram, TikTok, threads, also at worksimple.io. See you next time.
