Transcript
Speaker: Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of Where's Your Humanity. i am your host, Gail Fraser, and I am so excited to be joined by our guest today. Megan Upperman is the founder and CEO of Scratch for Growth. a marketing agency that provides really good small business marketing by people who really care about your business.
Speaker: And after a decade of leading teams at marketing agencies venture capital backed startups, she wanted to pursue work that made more of an impact in her community and now leads a top notch team that drives big results for businesses on tight budgets. Welcome, Megan. Thank you for having me. I am so excited to talk to you today and i would love for our listeners to get to know you a little bit more. Tell us more about the Megan behind the scenes.
Speaker: um Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, as far as like what goes on behind the scenes over here, like most working parents, it's absolute complete and total chaos. Yeah.
Speaker: i have I have a wonderful, super cool, smart, funny, interesting three and a half year old daughter. i have been married to my wife for almost 11 years this year, which is crazy. um I have, well, I have a cat, I have a dog. They're great. Hopefully they don't make any noise during this, but you know, realistically, the only interesting things about me, um,
Speaker: there's There's not like a big long list. I have a pretty narrow list of hobbies. I camp constantly all the time. Any way that I can do it, anything in or around Lake Superior is absolutely my jam. um Outside of that, I love a good book.
Speaker: I love a good snack. um i have celiac disease. So I have eaten some horrible gluten-free food in my life. And I am psyched to report that it has gotten a little bit better in the last couple of years as far as what's out there. um So, I mean, really, like, that has caused me to be, like, a super avid home cook because the commercially available food is often not good and barely safe anyways. So yes. And very limited. Yeah. Yes. And also super expensive. It's a little bit like childcare in that way, where it's like the absolute barely bare minimum of usable. And then like at an astronomical price point. Yes. Yeah. Like childcare and healthcare care in the U S exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: It's like barely alive, but it's worth capitalism. So fun for us. ah so fun for us. Well, we are both based here in the Twin Cities. we've met, I think, through networking. but one of the things that you talk about online that I really, really hooked me on to you and what you do is talking about the difference between capitalism and commerce. And I'd love for you to share a little bit more about your perspective on that for small business owners, because I think a lot of us are like, we know capitalism is like the big, bad, evil. um And we also want to run a business that we care about because we're passionate about what we do and we want to like make that our livelihood.
Speaker: and so I'd love for you to share a little bit about your perspective and we can dive into it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Thank you for asking. It is literally my favorite thing to talk about. um It's so funny. I started creating content about that topic because I feel like I give a lot of pep talks. Part of what you get, this is so what you get working with any kind of like long-term external partner to your business is like a little bit of free therapy, especially like from one small business owner to the other. And I have gotten into so many conversations with these wonderful people running these incredible businesses. And they're like, oh, I just, I don't know. I don't know if I can charge that. I don't know if that makes sense. I don't know if my market wants to pay that. Like, I, you know, I want to charge like the smallest amount possible to make this work. And I'm like, do you know what? There is a huge difference between commerce and capitalism. I mean, we've been doing commerce since the beginning of human history. We've been exchanging some goods and services for all of time.
Speaker: And when you think about, you know, the thing that I always want to remind small business owners in particular is like, first of all, a small business the way that you are running it, you are never going to become like a wealth hoarding billionaire overlord. Like that's simply not going to happen unless you make some crazy changes in your life, right?
Speaker: Most of that money is like an illusion. The way that they actually count up those billions and and how that really works It's incredibly complicated. and And I think that like, you know, when they're so concerned about like, how can I do this ethically? How can I do this supportively? How can I do everything right? I'm like, listen, by asking those questions,
Speaker: you're already in the right place. You know what I mean? Like this, like billionaires, just they're unethical without qualification. Wealth hoarding is the single biggest roadblock to solving almost every challenge we have as humans, right? So thinking about like how to encourage small business owners to even do something as simple as like raise their rates, I'm going through it myself trying to make a very small price increase. And i just want to get some raises in the team's pockets because as you have seen, the economy has been absolutely bonkers um and they deserve it. They do wonderful work. And yeah um thinking about how to go about that. I mean, I have the same kind of ick that many of my got my clients have over the same thing. And I just think like, raise your rate.
Speaker: Raise your rate because how we get off the capitalist hamster wheel is by maintaining livable small business lifestyles where you can afford to take time off. You can afford to treat people fairly. You can afford to do all of these things. And people who see the value in that, they don't mind paying a little bit more.
Speaker: You you're never going to win the race to the bottom. So you might as well win the race to being the best that you can be at what you do. And that means you have to make time for rest. You have to treat your team well and you have to make sure that they have time for rest. And all of that sadly costs money.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think that's such an important thing to remember because you you hear the like you can't pour from an empty cup thing. But like with your clients, it's like you need to have a base level of security. And in our world, in our capitalistic society, that requires money.
Speaker: And if you are helping make other businesses more profitable, helping other business owners become more stable, providing them a service that benefits them, it should also be mutually beneficial in a way that allows you security and stability in your own business so that you can do better work for everyone.
Speaker: Well, absolutely. And I mean, if you think about it from a very real, true, factual standpoint, creating these businesses in a way that's sustainable. And I mean, we should all use them, shop with them, give them all the money that you can, but like, you know, The small business economy supports about half of the private sector, right? So when people think about these giants, these big these big companies who want to come in and say like, oh, we employ 100 people. Okay, well, that's really good. But like half of the people working in the private sector are working for like really small companies. And when you think about what kind of value that gives to our society, i mean,
Speaker: the rate at which small businesses are being created, it never slows down. slowed down during COVID. It didn't slow down through the ICE occupation. It never ceases because honestly, a lot of people create these businesses out of need because they simply can't accommodate working for one of these big capitalist giants, right? It just may not work for their lifestyle. Particularly, I mean, you find a lot of women um who can't do like what those jobs are demanding of them. They cannot give their whole life to that. I employ quite a few part-time people. And that's honestly like a really big piece of it is many small businesses are able to hire people and give them meaningful resources.
Speaker: awesome employment that makes use of all these incredible skills that people have and does it a little bit more on their terms. So not only does it employ half the private sector, but it also, you know, it's a wonderful place to play because whether you work at one Or you own it yourself.
Speaker: There's always going to be just a better quality of life attached to that because you have so much more dignity and so much more say. And it's, it's a little bit less like, okay, well, if you don't like it, you can leave. You know what I mean? Like, well, if you don't want to work for $9 an hour, then go get a different job.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think to like small businesses, like you said, like they make up such a large portion of commerce and of society. And they're such the cornerstone of communities.
Speaker: And so like, I know both of us live in the twin cities. and are very lucky to have, like i live in St. Paul, very fortunate to have a really strong local business community and to have that prioritized in our government and in our city zoning and in things like that, where i want to, I know I'll pay a little bit more to go to the local grocery store versus the Aldi, or I know that I'm paying you know, a little bit more to go get my coffee from the place down the street, but also it's feels so good to support my local businesses that I want to stay there. And i think that by being a small business owner who cares about what we do and cares about people and approaches work with that moral and ethical standpoint, we continue to say, no, it's actually a priority that we build strong communities and that we support one another. And that doesn't mean that I have to take no money from it. Like that doesn't mean that I can't profit or have a secure, stable lifestyle.
Speaker: It's so true. It's so true. And I mean, really, existing as a small business and existing in a way that you can maintain that long-term is the most service that you can give. for the community I mean, we all just lived through something absolutely wild this year. I mean, we survived COVID, right. But we also, you know, we also lived through this really intense time full of conflict, you know, when ICE was here and so actively present in our community. and it's It was truly the small businesses holding it down.
Speaker: yeah in every possible way you look around and all these corporations have absolutely nothing to say. Absolutely nothing. And some of them, I'm not gonna shout out any names, we won't afford a lawsuit, but um some of them actively working to enable and support ICE. right Even the ones that you might've predicted at the outset. And what that tells you is that like, no matter where, uh, like a, a major capitalist giant companies brand tries to explain them as being positioned as a function, they are the same.
Speaker: and They're, they're essentially the same. So, you know, We hate we Jeff Bezos. He sucks. But there's a lot of other people who deserve kind of the same place on the shelf. And and the small businesses truly are the ones holding it down for the community, supporting each other, bringing each other together. becoming more flexible, allowing people to get what they need in a different way. It's been, it's been so different. And these people just giving everything they have to support the other small businesses. I mean, it's wild. It's wild. And it's honestly, i have never been more pleased to see like a community response.
Speaker: Oh, a thousand percent because I feel so proud to be from here. Yeah. Same. And like, in In the Twin Cities, we have this sort of unspoken, we're all neighbors kind of energy. and I think a lot of that comes from like, we're we're shoveling driveways in the snow, we're helping people push their car out like in the winter. And whether we know someone or not, it's like, okay, I can help them out because I might as well. Like they're right here, they're my neighbor. And like that makes it gives me so much pride as and like that's a community and that's an energy that I want to continue to pour into and and continue to support both as a business owner and as a resident and as a neighbor. And I think what we saw here in the ICE occupation was
Speaker: that people and small business owners were really like, how can i be a hub for resource sharing, for fundraising, for donation gathering and distribution?
Speaker: And it's not the corporations. And I think of when you were talking about corporate entities, I think Target's such a good example of that, of because Target's based here in the Twin Cities yes and was up until a few years ago, beloved by by Minnesotans because had such a pride. So many people here work at Target. like And it was such ah a good, comp quote unquote, good company in the eyes of Minnesotans. Like it had a lot of respect. There's a lot of targets here. like And then when they made the choice to remove all of their DEI efforts, people here, we're a sanctuary state. Like we have... A lot of immigrants here, we are a really blue state. We care a lot about equality and equity. And when they removed that stance, it was like they lost a lot of their support here in Minnesota because we're like, well, that's not aligned with what we care about. now, yeah.
Speaker: And what's wild is too, I mean, i feel like the the complexities of living in the Midwest really get passed over by a lot of people who are creating this thought leadership on, you know, major large business strategy, politics generally. i mean, i have been fortunate to sit down with some incredibly powerful people over drinks a few times in my life. And um what is always wild to me is how,
Speaker: much they can flatten the experience of those of us living in flyover country. And I feel like, you know, people can look at Minnesota and they say, okay, great. This is a reliably blue state. I love that. um I know exactly how to operate you guys. I know exactly how to persuade you of X, Y, and Z and get you to vote for this and get you to buy that. And, you know, that's all well and good, but realistically you You can't possibly, you can't possibly know what it's like to be in a place like this unless you've spent meaningful time here because, you know, sure, reliably blue. Yes, we have a couple major blue hubs, but even...
Speaker: in these really red areas, like, okay, Gail, I'm going go a little bit on a political tangent here. so If you think about, for example, you know, we're recording this on August 24th, you know, the primary just ended.
Speaker: um And I feel like what people can be so flat in their consideration of is even like the more conservative parts of the state. I personally am from the St. Cloud area. So that's where I grew up. And, you know, when I think about, you know, the conservatives local to that area, you know, I feel like the the more conservative political strategists, they really flatten and miss a lot of what's going on there, too. And I think they've struggled to properly activate.
Speaker: their base because seeing the results of the primary, you know, the party endorsed candidate didn't hold a candle. The presidential endorsed candidate did okay.
Speaker: But realistically, people rallied behind this totally other candidate because she just spoke more to their concerns and and they felt like she represented them better in the governor's race. And I think to myself often, I'm like,
Speaker: you know, there aren't a lot of conservative communities where a woman of color would be people's choice outright, even without a nomination, even without a meaningful endorsement. um It's truly wild. and And I feel like people, they miss the complexity of of what it is to live in a place like this, a place where people, I mean, we care so much about our natural resources across the spectrum completely. We care so much about each other, about being good neighbors, because you can't live in a place like this without someone physically assisting you at some point in your life. You know what I mean? Yeah, and my husband and I talk about this all the time because what we see a lot in this political climate right now is that the candidates are talking about like all the hot button issues and not really talking about like the things that are impacting people's lives.
Speaker: And I think that's where we see these things happen, right? Where it's like, oh, this candidate that like wasn't party endorsed, wasn't endorsed by the president, isn't necessarily, like I think someone who can speak to the actual realities that people are living through, not being able to afford groceries or go to the doctor or like afford daycare for their kids,
Speaker: the people who can speak to that can kind of cross party lines yeah because they're caring about people because they're showing like, I care less about the publicity. i care less about the controversy showing up as like righteous on one side or the other.
Speaker: I just care about the people. And I think that's why Like in our, in our area, like Ilhan continues to be someone who like wins the vote by like, I think 84% this time. and Can we give a hand to Peggy Flanagan? Yes. I And it's those people who show up and and all of them have their downfalls, right? Like no one is perfect. No politician's perfect. No business owner is perfect. No person is perfect.
Speaker: But this is a really realistic community. We're not expecting perfection of anyone. Frankly, we have an extreme distaste for virtue signaling. Some of the things that work in these coastal places where it's all about positioning. I mean, a lot of people grew up here with an incredible amount of privacy. Virtue signaling means nothing.
Speaker: yeah You know, and it's why someone like Tim Walls got so much praise here because he's just a man for the people like he's just like, here, here's an issue that I'm hearing about. Let's just do the right thing.
Speaker: It's so true. And I think it's one of the same reasons why. you know, the mayor of Minneapolis and the mayor of St. Paul have had so much negative feedback is because you can very much see and hear and feel them saying one thing and doing another. Saying something and then doing nothing. It is wild to see them try to live through that experience and to see what kind of feedback they get from the public. I mean, truly, i cannot stop feeling proud.
Speaker: to be from here. Oh, a thousand percent. And I think that like this political climate broadly beyond Minnesota is another example of how this shows up, because obviously when people are like, don't bring politics into this, we all know that politics is in this, whether you like it or not. yeah And especially now where we're kind of in this like critical point, where we're seeing that the people who are getting voted in the primaries, people like Zoran Mondani and like the other progressives who are getting a lot of traction.
Speaker: It's the same thing we were just talking about with like big corporations versus small businesses. It's the people who are showing up in the community being ingrained in the community and saying, I want to do right by you. This is what I'm hearing. And I want to make that better for you yeah and actually listening. And those are the people who people are like, yeah, I resonate with that in the same way that I'd prefer to go to the bakery up the street for coffee than like to Starbucks because i know they're part of my community. i know the people who work there live in my neighborhood. i want them to stick around. i want that business owner to be successful. And I think that we see those politicians that are showing up and saying like, hey, like I just I want to do right by you and I just want to make it better. i don't want to play the game. I just want to like make things better. yeah
Speaker: And people cling on to that because we all want our lives to be easier, better, more affordable, ah attainable for people. Well, yeah. And I mean, i think if you look at like, you know, the history of, you know, how like the LGBTQ rights movement has progressed over time, you can see like a little bit of a similar shift happening for a lot of other groups right now where, you know, a significant amount of effort went into simply being able to be tolerated.
Speaker: Yes. in ah In a group setting. You know, when I'm doing this, this striving for tolerance and all this time, you know, they've been waiting and fighting and doing all these amazing things. And, you know, when the time for that ends,
Speaker: And it's time to set your sights on a little bit higher of a goal. You know, now you really want to be in a place where you feel like you belong, a place where you feel like properly respected and integrated and included. and and even dare I say, ah you know, informing the foundations of how we move as a society. And I feel like you can see in the results of these primaries and, and who is getting the chance to be elected.
Speaker: You know, the the people have spoken, you know, they don't, they don't want to be tolerated. Like the more progressive wings of these parties, they don't they don't want to be tolerated. They want to be heard. They want to be neutralized. They want to be of service. and they're doing such a good job. You know, the time is gone where you get a vote simply for being a member of the queer community.
Speaker: There's so much more in asking for so much more from our representatives and from our, you know, our business community and everything else in asking for more from them. You know, the standards change of what it is that that we're looking for in the way that we're screening these people. You can't just be a member of the community. You have to do so much more.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think that shows up is showing up a lot in every business community, but especially the small business community. And I'd love to hear your perspective of the way that consumers are really choosing which businesses they put their money into based on their values.
Speaker: Oh, it's so true. I mean, you know, I feel like. Minnesota was a little ahead of the curve in that way. And I think, you know, Target's Fall From Grace has been like a really good example of how truly you need to take advantage of the opportunity you have to meet people on a values level because we care so much. We have such informed, conscious consumers. I mean,
Speaker: Gosh, there's everything from you know caring and and and everyone has their their issues that are absolute deal breakers for them. you know Exploitive prison labor, for example, being one of like the the ones that people have been thinking about for so long. But even beyond that, how employees are treated, um the way that you plug into your community, the way that you do or don't decide to give back to people. I mean, people have really had this this really interesting awakening. And i find that like people are making these really clear choices even beyond the product level. Let me give you an example, you know, Evergreen Collective on Grand Avenue, Taylor, such a sweetie. She is the absolute best. If you haven't been in that store, you absolutely must go. But, you know, she carries products that are also available at Target. They're also available at some other places like the Mississippi market, for example, a store that I am just obsessed with. um
Speaker: We laugh about this all the time, but my wife and I both have t-shirts from there and we wear them all the time. And we're so excited about it If you're not from Minnesota, the Mississippi market's a local like grocery co-op here. And so they're,
Speaker: great. We love the co-op. They're wonderful. We love them. And when you think about you know these products that you can get at multiple places, you know people are so willing to make this extra step to support this specific establishment because we're not even just thinking about what products is it that we really want to plug into our lifestyle. We're thinking a level beyond that of who we want to get those from.
Speaker: you know Where do we want that money to go? How do we want it to stay here? Who do we want it to support and employ? and And what else comes with it? There's even like the layers of, you know, there are individual products you can buy at both the Mississippi market and at Evergreen Collective, both of those being wonderful local establishments. But Evergreen Collective is different in a sense because they're curating this really extensive selection of of super well curated, extremely sustainable goods that That's really trying to push ah push a whole movement forward and supply the community with a whole host of goods where, you know, myself and many other people, we maybe could get it at Target. We're certainly not going to get it there.
Speaker: We maybe could get it at the Mississippi market. We might get it there, but we're certainly much more apt to travel across town and to visit a store like Evergreen because we know when we buy that individual item there, it also funds the operation that puts all of these other pieces into our community on this specific category of items, you know? Yeah.
Speaker: I think that it's really wonderful to see how deeply considered so many people's purchases are. Yeah. And I think there's this strong misconception that as people feel like they have less money right now, like from a corporate perspective, as people see their dollar going not as far as it used to, that they're holding tight to their dollar and making really informed purchases. And I think from the corporate lens, they're like, That means that they're going to shop fast fashion, that they're going to try to buy the cheapest thing. And we see things like private equity, just like tanking the quality of goods that you've relied on or like Everlane being bought by Sheehan and things like that, where it's these organizations that had quality products that now are like trying to reduce that to make their profit margins larger, but also to make their products cheaper so that it's like, because people will buy it if it's cheap. Yep.
Speaker: And I think we're seeing really a portion of the population who have a little bit more flexible spending still, or they're like, okay, but now I'm choosing to make an ethical choice with this money. yeah Like if I'm going to have less to spend, I'm going to make sure that that dollar goes into something that I value and that is aligned with what I care about.
Speaker: Exactly. You'd think that the, you know, your dollar's not stretching as far as they once did. would cause people to really start like participating and accelerating this race to the bottom. And at least here locally, the people that I'm speaking with, that's not necessarily the case. I mean, when they really take a strong focus on considering every dollar that goes into and out of their household, there are so many people who will simply just buy less.
Speaker: They'll just, they'll just some of these kind of discretionary purchases, they'll just skip them. You know mean? There are so many people who are just like, you know what? um I could get X, Y, and Z if I want to buy it from here, but I don't really want to buy it from there. So I'm just going to get X.
Speaker: Maybe why next time. And that's, I mean, it's wonderful in so many ways. First of all, because that has so much more community impact, the number, the amount of money that stays in your community and doesn't end up in some billionaire's bonus check when you make those choices.
Speaker: It's for the long-term health of us all. And then beyond that, if you think about how heavily considered so many of these purchases are, you know, if you're skipping an impulse buy that's gonna end up in a landfill anyways, um maybe that's good.
Speaker: Yeah, I think this is so important because like you said, We want to be putting that money into our local community. And also for those of us who are able to make that choice of saying, I'm going to just not buy this thing. I'm going to spend a little bit more to buy from my local grocery store. We also, are advocating with our dollar for the people who don't have that choice because of where they're at financially and have to choose the cheapest option. We're speaking with our dollar for those people as well.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely. And if you think too about, you know, the broader impact, there is so much that we all can do to subsidize what so the people who are really, really focused on that budget who might not be able to afford to buy everything from a small business right now, you know, the more that the rest of us are able to frequent these small businesses, the more competitive their pricing can be. And the more we can help subsidize that cost for the community at large. So I think, you know, it's very much like a multiplying effect, the more that we can all try to push and tip those scales in that direction.
Speaker: And I think too, you know, There's so much to be said for everything the small business community does really well. But one thing we always have to remind ourselves, and this is this is so much in the vein of you know commerce being so different from capitalism and and and those two things really being separate functionalities. The other thing that's really important to note is that like you know these businesses, we are so used to struggling and grinding and doing it all ourselves and Googling in until we figure it out that I think we sometimes wait too long to get the help that we need. And I feel like, you know, okay, I own ah a marketing agency specifically built for small businesses. So I'm a little bit biased in this regard, but you know, when I decided kind of what I wanted to do with this business and who I really wanted to help,
Speaker: there are a lot of layers to how we designed our services and who we designed them for. And one of the things I'm specifically focused on is making sure that we can get help in the hands of people who need it. Because right now, at this time in history, everyone, everyone is reconsidering how they're making their purchases, whatever your budget, whatever your political party, wherever you live, all these things, everyone is really reconsidering their habits right now.
Speaker: And like, this is the time to invest in your marketing. This is the time to go out there and find those people who are really trying to find a smaller operation that they can buy these basic necessities from, a smaller operation to provide their services, something that's even more local, even more close to home so that they keep their money where they live. And when you think about what that does for us all to think about it on that level, you know,
Speaker: it's It's revolutionary. If you think about the way that we can all sort of change our habits on these individual small decisions to add up to something really spectacular that totally decentralizes where wealth is being kept. You know what I mean? Like right now, going through all these traditional channels, focusing on all these big box stores and all these large brands, it's great. But I mean...
Speaker: God, you really, all of that money just gets funneled up to this small group of people and they're hoarding all of it, right? And when you keep all of that money local and spread as much of it as you can here specifically, you know, we all,
Speaker: get benefit from that. Even the people who can't afford to shop always at a small business. So it does it does so much for the community. And I think, you know, helping people by recommending your favorite small business, even if you can't always afford to shop there, leave them a nice review.
Speaker: tag them in a post, you know share something that you love. um It's so important to do that, to give them the free help that they can get. But also, you know I would just love to see more people raising their hands and asking for help. you know Without even considering it like a truly capitalist pursuit, if we think about it purely from a commerce perspective, there's so much demand waiting to be served.
Speaker: There's so much return on investment for marketing yourself to the people that really want to find you. And so many people are looking right now. there This is a golden opportunity for small businesses to to reach out and find those people.
Speaker: Yeah, I see that a ton in my own business of most of the people who find me go, I didn't know someone like you existed. yes. yes And whether you're in ah an area like marketing where it's like all business owners know that they need marketing, whereas like all business owners might not know that there's like a systems person who can help them build their systems. um But it's so valuable to speak not only on behalf of your services, but also on behalf of your values. And I would be curious to hear from you. What would you recommend to a business owner who is still in that, like, I am not sure if I should be toeing the line or speaking out about really what I care about on my social media?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, gosh, that is such a good question. And honestly, i still get nervous. Sometimes i I say something that I feel like, this could be a little controversial or there might be some people who are not really excited about this. I mean...
Speaker: In the beginning of the ICE occupation, we had a few posts that people considered a little spicy for their Midwestern tolerance. And we lost, I mean, half of our following during that time. But it mattered not.
Speaker: One thing that I always try to remind people, social media is, you know, a personal tool for us all to stay connected. But beyond that, from a business perspective, it's not a popularity contest.
Speaker: It's a business tool. So like, you know, even just on Friday, I was talking to someone, ah a small local business that's a service provider. And I said, you know, here's something really interesting is through all these algorithmic updates and all these changes that have been made the last couple months, our views are like a good solid 20, 25% down from the the few months prior to that. But you know what?
Speaker: The number of new customers you've acquired with social media as a part of their purchase journey is more than doubled. So who cares about the vanity metrics? You know what mean? um i I wish I could attribute this quote to whoever it was who said this.
Speaker: I heard this on a podcast like 10 years ago. um I wish I could remember which one. I know it was something that Bitch Media produced. and The quote was something along the lines of, just make your art and your people will find you.
Speaker: And it's so true. Just say what you want to say. Say what you want to say. say what Say what feels true. Say what's important to you. There's no need to hop on a bandwagon, right? Just because everyone's talking about this topic and it's something that aligns with your values. If you don't have something to add, you don't have to add anything.
Speaker: But if you have something you want to say, something that makes sense, something that people need to know, something that you can speak to uniquely, I mean, you owe it to us all to say it. We need to hear it.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think to your point about the vanity metrics and like maybe your views are lower, but you're still getting the same amount or more inquiries than you were. The right people find you. And in that like posting about the ICE occupation or when i went publicly as like an anti-AI systems expert, I lost a lot of people, but I gained like double.
Speaker: like And people started to find me because they were like, great, I wanted somebody who's not just going to be like, AI is the solution to everything. So you're weeding out the people that aren't for you. You are.
Speaker: And with this small budget for these small businesses, I mean, if you hear only one thing from everything that I have to say today, stop trying to convert people who are never going to buy from you. Stop.
Speaker: Just let them go. Let them disqualify themselves. That's one thing that is always so hard for small business owners to do because, you know, we're all guilty of operating out of a scarcity mentality so often. And when I think about, you know, what we can do to help each other,
Speaker: and how we can you know create these really like profitable marketing systems that people can afford to run that are continuing to generate more and more revenue down the road to keep these businesses afloat with lighter and lighter touch over time. you know Just let people disqualify.
Speaker: Stop spending your money trying to convert people who don't resonate with your message. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There are so many people who will, but it's not everybody. Let everyone go. Yeah. I say this all the time. You don't like everyone and you're going to be the person that somebody doesn't like. And that's okay because it's just net neutral. And that's not indicative of who you are or what you have to offer.
Speaker: It's so true. It's so true. And do you know what else? I mean, I think the other thing that is so powerful about being a small business owner and working for a small business is I have faced so many negative repercussions over the course of my career, working in venture capital spaces, working in these big brand agencies. you know, reporting to only men, being around all men all the time, you are so heavily punished for not being likable enough, for not trying hard enough with your attitude and trying to placate and lift up these people around you that like when you step into your own space, when you become a part of the small business community, whether you work for one or own one, you know, it's such a liberating experience.
Speaker: I had dinner with someone recently who you know i haven't spent a ton of time with since my daughter was born. And not that this is always an advisable choice or a good choice for everyone, but I i started this business after my daughter was born because I was head of marketing at a software company, working only with male executives. And when I tried to go back to work, i i couldn't do it.
Speaker: I was so tired. i was making myself sick trying to navigate you know the pathetic... partial kind of sort of six to eight weeks of part-time-ish leave and having a newborn baby and doing all this other stuff. I mean, i simply couldn't make it work.
Speaker: And, you know, when I liberated myself from that and went to go do my own thing and make my own choices and be responsible for myself, I mean, it's changed me so much as a person. I've always been pretty outspoken, but it's liberated me to really be the person I want to be and to let other people be who they want to and need to be and show up as their full selves. I mean, at least half of my team is neurodivergent, myself included. ah My gosh, most of us are queer. um i have so i mean, it's such a wonderful, diverse group of people. And we really all get to show up and be the people that we are. Really authentically, deeply, and truly in a way that you simply can't working in some of these more corporate environments because you're just so heavily punished for that.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think you speak to something that a lot of business owners resonate with of, the like starting my business because I can't do that anymore. I was often the youngest person in the room, the only woman in the room, the youngest woman in the room, and it waters down your expertise. And I think I got to this place where beyond the annoyance of it, of being like, yeah, i really wish that people took me seriously and all of that stuff. It was a self-awareness of, I know exactly what I'm good at. And you guys aren't letting me do that.
Speaker: Oh my God, it's so true. And I look at like my chief of operations, um Cassie Berkey, guys, you should all be a big fan of hers. She's wonderful. But if you think about, you know, some of the things that we, we worked together many years ago at an agency and she, you know, stayed, stayed much longer than I did. And I went off to kind of pursue other things and, and, and try some in-house roles and all this other stuff. And, you know, when I think about both of our career journeys, whether you decide to stay put in one place for a long time, or hop around trying to find what's going to work for you, you're you're just left as a woman in your career working for other people, you're left with this this, just this nagging question of like, what could I do without all these limitations? What could I do if I really was the one calling the shots? If if I was able to just
Speaker: do it the way I know it should be done. What could I possibly achieve? And you know Cassie and I talk about this all the time, getting to be you know reunited so many years later and work together again. you know we We look at this and we think like, my God, if they knew what could be done, if they had just gotten out of our way, can you imagine all the revenue they left on the table? yu you know All the possibilities that they didn't achieve, those are ours now.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's so powerful and so many women and people just need to hear that because so many of us start our business out of a like, no, you don't appreciate me. And I'm, I'm just going to do my own thing now.
Speaker: And I'm going to find the people who do appreciate me um, it's a big reason why when I did my rebrand, I was like, I went from like my professional photos, like sitting in front of a computer because I'm a systems person to being like all hot pink and orange and whatever, because I was like,
Speaker: I just want to have fun. I had a lot of that, like, don't be like a girl because that's weak kind of ingrained in my system. And when I started my own business, it wasn't right away. It was like after some of the building and after some of the trying and meeting new clients, I was like,
Speaker: no, I just want to like be girly. Because it's fun freeing. You have the freedom to do that without being freeing devalued and judged for it. Yeah. Held to some arcane standard. I love that for you because, I mean, really?
Speaker: We have had such a, I love your branding, by the way. You're gorgeous. I love it. It's so memorable. It's so eye-catching. It's so scroll stopping. Oh, I just love everything about your brand and your messaging. It is so delightful. um You're so welcome. I feel like we've got to do a better job of calling each other out more for all the amazing things we do. um But I feel like, you know, with our branding, you know, Cassie and I went through a rebrand and we leaned super hard into essentially a version of a sticker I found on like a childhood notebook that I had in a box from many years ago. As ah as a girl of the early ninety s I... um
Speaker: Man, those, the smiley face icon, the sticker. Yes. The vibe of that everywhere and the checkered background. It is, it felt so cool and fun and like authentic and like not overly serious and like just the right, just the right vibe for us to include both of those as like really like cornerstones of our visual branding. And it felt so good to be like, yeah, this really feels like me.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And your business should, I talk about this probably on every single episode of like, your business should feel like you and should allow you to be yourself. Cause that's why you're starting it.
Speaker: And like, it should be something that you can kind of like experience play and fun with because to my point before it's like other people may devalue me for being really girly or wearing hot pink to the office or whatever.
Speaker: But at the end of the day, it doesn't devalue me. No, like it doesn't devalue my work. It doesn't change the brain that's in here. It doesn't change my personality or who I am wearing a hot pink from head to toe does not change any of that Yep. Let old people disqualify. if they don't like that, if that's not their thing, that's fine. on. I'm not the person for you. Yeah. And as a result, you find the people who are like, yes, I get this. Like this is it i love whether it's it it sparks joy for them where they're like, this is funny or fun or like, oh, look at that. I didn't even think that was possible. Yeah. Your marketing and your business and brand should feel like a really strong representative of who you are. And that speaks to all the elements that we've talked about of like speaking to your values. If that's something that you really want, like if you're like, I feel like I need to share this and I don't know if I can, you probably can. like and you probably should. Yeah. i really Like people probably need to hear it.
Speaker: Yeah. And they probably want to hear it. they They might be, especially think back to the ICE occupation here. It's like businesses were getting money. They were getting more customers if they were the ones speaking out, if they were the ones actively supporting the community, running fundraisers, doing donations, whatever. Like the businesses that did speak out about issues that their community cares about, those are the ones that are getting people's dollar when they're being choosy about where to put that.
Speaker: It's so true. It's so true. And guys, people are being so choosy about where they're putting their dollars right now. Can I just say it again? There has never been a better time to say what you really want to say because people are looking for you. Like they are waiting to hear you say it. It is glorious to see so many people in the find out stage of the fuck around and chill out movement. I mean, it is incredible to watch us all, you know, being these people that we've all come out of all these traumatic events, you know, different and and and in many ways better.
Speaker: And there's so much left to do. There's so much left to excavate. There's so much left to work on. There are so many systems left. to update, but, you know, ah to see the progress and the change in people's values and the way they look at their money and their community and, and like the scarcity mentality is so different.
Speaker: It's so different than it was. I mean, i live in the same neighborhood that I lived in, you know, pre-COVID and it's been, the it's, it's come a long way. It's changed so much. It's a wild neighborhood with an incredible history, but like to see how everyone has taken our our community identity and really let it blossom into something so specific and, and coordinated and, and like value oriented. It's so different. It's so different than it once was.
Speaker: Yeah. What's the first step that you would tell somebody if they're like, I want to be the catalyst for that in my own community. I want my business to be a catalyst for people to say, oh they really show up in their community and they encourage other people to do that.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, speaking of things that are totally antithetical to capitalism, um you know, I would say get out there and try to give some shit away for free.
Speaker: Find out, you know, what you have to offer that's unique and start giving a little bit away for free. Really, when you start to give shit away for free, you find so many people that you can establish these really meaningful connections with that turn into these wonderful opportunities. And I found for me, like, you know, a lot of the clients... that we work with are places that I shop and and services that I've received that I'm like, well, you guys are different. You're special. And I don't know why you don't have a line around the block. And this is going to be terrible for me to make you guys so busy. And I'm going have to start waiting in line, but um you deserve it.
Speaker: You really ought to have it. And so, you know, when I started, you know, really trying to grow my business actively I found so many ways to just go out and like ask people how they're doing.
Speaker: Go find a business owner, walk into their store, buy something, ask them how they're doing, ask them what challenges they're up against. And honestly, I've given out a lot of free advice. And more than advice, I've given out a lot of free, just like small business to small business, like therapy moments.
Speaker: Just getting out there, bring somebody a cup of coffee, buy something, ask them how they're doing, ask what challenges they're coming up against. And if you have information that could benefit them, just start giving it away.
Speaker: It's crazy how much a gesture of goodwill can can come back because there are so many people, you know, who have referred other people to me, even if they didn't come back and and and weren't ready to work with us. Or, you know, maybe they found another way that they wanted to move forward. But we operate so heavily on this kind of like referral club basis because, you know, when someone comes to work with us and all of a sudden they realize how it can be done.
Speaker: the things you can take off your plate. And marketing doesn't have to be the last thing on your to-do list that is always getting pushed out for another day and always getting shortchanged with the energy you have to give it.
Speaker: You know, if this is the engine that you use to grow your business and to give yourself a better lifestyle and a bigger paycheck, you know, take it seriously, look at it, listen to it, figure out what you can learn there. and and realistically, you know, the people we've been able to help I am devastated to tell you that most of them, if they were getting any help at all before they worked with us, they were getting scammed, like straight up scammed. I'm telling you, Gail, I have two clients right now who were sold an identical website saying it was, for those of you listening only, you can't see my air quotes right now, but I'm doing them.
Speaker: SEO built right in to this website. Identical websites with the logo and colors swapped out. Unbelievable, the amount of scamming that's happening. ah And even just like the amount of like the the access to information. Some of these really scammy service providers that are putting out services that you know small businesses can afford to use, um you know I am happy to to rag on them a bit because it's such a scam operation. They're doing such low quality work and they're leaving business owners with questions like, um you know
Speaker: what did I spend on my advertising? How many people came to my site? How many people left immediately without doing something else? the The questions that people don't have answers to from some of these scammy service providers, I'm like,
Speaker: you're purposefully pushing these questions off and leaving these people in the dark because you're ashamed to answer. Yeah. It's horrible. And I love, you know, I love to see people, you know, kind of blossoming into a space where they're ready to let somebody else open up the hood and see what's going on in there and really get help because there's so much shame around like, well, I know I'm not doing it the way I should. Like I know better than this, our own social media channel, I'll tell you as a perfect example of this actually have a,
Speaker: A new hire starting tomorrow who is actually for the first time really going to give us dedicated help for our own social media. Because I'll tell you right now, even as the marketer in the room who said everything that I just said to you, um I haven't posted it on our social media in like two weeks because it keeps pulling off my to-do list.
Speaker: I think I even have a half finished reel sitting, waiting to be published. And that is just the worst thing you can possibly do. We're fortunate right now that we're flushed with referrals. So, you know, I'm not super actively trying to outbound market because at this stage in the game, we haven't had to do a ton of that. um But to show up and to be there and to show everyone who we are and to give them the encouragement they deserve,
Speaker: to continue to do that for themselves, we really want to be out there. That's part of like the actual business goal for me is it's it's not just about how many new clients did we get. And I know for many people, that's really, really important, the dollars and cents of that piece. Most of our customers, that's how we operate their social media. But for us, because we are so like, so fortunate to have all these wonderful clients who have sent so many wonderful people to us, like All I have to do there is show up and and make a bunch of noise and show other people what they can do and what they can say and what they can get away with and still manage to to flourish anyhow. And yeah, I'm really, really looking forward to getting actual professional help and treating us like a client of Scratch is going to be wonderful in that way because whatever the goal is, really getting specific with it and using all of these incredible tools that you have at your disposal to to accomplish it, I mean, that
Speaker: That's it. That's marketing in a nutshell. That's all you got to do. Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being here, Megan. This is such a lovely conversation and I can't wait for people to hear it. For people who are interested by this conversation and like, I think I need Megan in my business and scratch for growth. Where can they find you?
Speaker: Oh my gosh, great question. um You can find us on Instagram at Scratch for Growth. It's a very informal place. Feel free to drop us a DM. um i As of now, I am responding to most of the DMs myself, so you can reach me there. We also, you know, scratchforgrowth.com, send us a contact inquiry there. That goes right to my inbox. And really, truly, i would say like, even if you are just feeling stressed and you want to have a coffee and talk to somebody who kind of gets what you're going through, even if you're not ready to get help or you just want to, I mean, i feel like one of the most helpful things I can offer people is just the information.
Speaker: If you just want to get information about what's possible, understand what it would cost to get there and think about it as you're planning your 2027, which I can't believe we're already headed into the fourth quarter. But, um you know, even if that's where you're at, oh my God, come talk to me. Let us help.
Speaker: I would love, love to make sure that people get that information. I love that so much. And you know, I love sending people your way as well. So is that yes, thank you so much for being on and for being here. oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me, Gail. This was so fun. Thanks so much for listening. I'm your host, Gail Fraser. And for more information about Where's Your Humanity, you can check out at where's your humanity pod on Instagram. And for more information about me and the work that I do, you can go to my website, worksimple.io. which is also my Instagram and threads handle. Our lovely theme music is brought to you Emily Bjorki and you can go check out her album. Are you going to heaven or hell anywhere you listen to music?
Speaker: Thanks for being here and I'll talk to you later.
