Transcript
Speaker: There is more than enough room. Hold on, Kim. We are and we believe it.
Speaker: Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of Where's Your Humanity. I'm your host, Gail Fraser, and I am so excited to be joined by today's guest, Maddie O'Coin. She is a brand messaging strategist for service providers that need the strategy and language to talk about why they do what they do and why people should choose them instead of someone else in a world where there are a lot of cool and smart people. that constantly are saying like, trust me, I'm different. And Maddie helps provide them with brand strategy, messaging, and copy. And after six years as an entrepreneur, six plus years, she's an experienced educator, public speaker, podcast past guest, and loves nothing more than teaching you as a service provider how to stand out with your messaging and positioning. Welcome, Maddie. Thank you so much for having me. You did such a great job describing me.
Speaker: Well, ge you couldn't have said it better yourself. um I like to start every episode by giving you a chance to, obviously i just gave like your professional bio, but tell me a little bit more about the the real Maddie behind the scenes.
Speaker: You know what? One of my biggest compliments that I get is that I am very similar to what people see online. meet me in person. They feel like this is exactly who I've been following on social media, which I love. i don't have any pets. I do have one daughter. i consider myself not a regular mom, a cool mom, um which is the only time I will allow that phrase in any sort of messaging ah is if we're referencing the mean girls bit. But um I am also someone who loves reading. i love picking up, of course, obviously we love a good like fiction read, a good like fun read, and but I'm also really into learning more about the world and the systems that really uphold everything. And I did my master's degree in history. So I also love keeping up with
Speaker: that side as well, um just to kind of fuel that interest a little bit, even though it doesn't necessarily overlap with my business, but I still think it is so fun and interesting to learn about the world, what's going on in it, how have things worked before. And I think that can be so helpful to us as well while we are building businesses. So those kind of coexist. And then also, of course, as you know, from following me on social media, I'm very like fun girly. I love, you know, putting together fun outfits. I love the color pink. I love all of like the fun,
Speaker: girly stuff. So yeah, both of those like very two different sides can can coexist. And I love being the person who, you know, considers himself like the the very fun, easygoing person hang out with, but also like, will educate you about like things that are going on and also in business as well.
Speaker: We contain multitudes just because we like. There's not anything about our competence or the complex complexity that we contain as humans. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. That's something I really have struggled with for a lot of my life. i grew up in a very small town. um And whenever I say that, people are like, oh, you know, like, yeah, I also grew up in a small town. But ah my small town had 300 people. Now, it was smaller when I was growing up there. And there is so much to say about growing up in a small town. But I think especially as someone who has always had like a very outgoing, bubbly personality and loves to be girly and fun. Of course, like it's very difficult to kind of fit in there and to feel like you're not constantly having to like push those pieces apart. And then as well, after graduating from my undergrad and going into my master's degree, it felt like a very similar kind of vibe, you know, having to always kind of push aside that girliness, that desire to like show up and be bubbly and wear pink. And like, I love wearing dresses and I love wearing like earrings and jewelry and like, you know, all of that stuff.
Speaker: But it's so frustrating to try to exist in a world where, It's so binary and people are so focused on like, well, if you're serious, you have to dress and you have to look and you have to show up a certain way. yeah And so many people want you to just fit into that vision of like being serious versus being fun. And I, I love that there's an opportunity for us to get to do both and to inspire people to to do both because you're very much the same. Yeah.
Speaker: um Coming into this in my own brand is like a different path, but similar reason. i grew up with a stay at home dad. My dad worked in maintenance. Like, so i grew up with like a very tomboy personality and experience in the world. But I like always loved pink. Like in the 2000s, I was like the pink and orange and girly. sister was always the like blue and green. I always loved girly things, but I was always kind of taught in the way that we all are being, well,
Speaker: ultimately underneath the surface that being like a girl means that you're weak and incompetent. And the liking girly things also means that it's immature or it's unprofessional. And I'm like, well, why is it unprofessional if I wear a hot pink shirt instead of a white shirt to work? Like, why does it actually matter? doesn't change the brain that's in my head. it doesn't change who I am as a person, but it's like more fun.
Speaker: And so I might show up in my job like more energized and like fun. And I think now in my like when I did a rebrand, I went from kind of a white, green, neutral,
Speaker: calming energy and like, I'm a Taurus, like i vibe with a calming energy too. So it's not that that's not part of like my personality, but that's not how I show up or how I want to show up in my business. I'm like a pretty loud person. I'm pretty bubbly. i love talking to people. Also, I do something that people consider really boring or like really tedious.
Speaker: And I don't think it's boring or tedious. And that's why someone would hire me to do it. But I was like, I want to be fun. Like I want people to reach out to me like, oh, she seems approachable to me as a creative, because she doesn't seem stuffy and over professional. And I was just like, that's how I want to show up. And now I work mostly with wedding industry clients and creatives. So when I go to a networking event, Maybe I'm wearing like an outlandish gown or pink from head to toe and no one bats an eye. Like it's so normal. And it just brings me so much joy, even when sometimes it's a caricature of my personality, because it's like a fun caricature of my personality. Yes, 100%. And you touched on something really great. about, you know, having that like bigger personality and and wanting to bring that out, especially with the work that you do, talking about it being like, quote unquote, like boring. a lot of my clients kind of feed into that space where they do the work that is like the work that people typically consider boring or like not fun or stuffy. And I think it's so cool that we have an opportunity to
Speaker: diverge from what people believe is like the way that certain professionals should and have to show right? It's so cool that we get to work with clients who are doing things differently, not even just in the sense of like, hey, I saw this need in my industry for doing things doing things in a different way. It's like showing up differently, allowing... yourself to take up space and to show that being a professional doesn't have to look X, Y, and Z way. i think for so long, we've been conditioned that this idea of professionalism is so based on what you are wearing, how you look, how you talk. And for people who show up like us, and I know that this also really affects Black people, Brown people, Indigenous people, disabled people, queer people, especially, that the way that you show up, people want to put you in this box of professionalism. If like you're not showing up a certain way, looking a certain way, your hair isn't a certain way, you don't fit the mold, people want to write you off. And I think it is so cool that we are able to start businesses because,
Speaker: We don't want to be written off anymore. Like I am, you know, it's, it's just not a fun experience. I think we've all, you know, had these experiences where we show up places and, you know, i was reflecting recently, one of my friends works where I used to go to university. And so she was cleaning out her office. She found some notes from an interview that I had done like years and years before, like when I was like 18 or 19 interviewing for like some student jobs.
Speaker: And one of the things that was written at the top of someone's like review of my because it was like a panel um done by like peers who were older than me. And one of the things that was written like at the top of the application, she had sent me a picture was just in the capital letters loud with like under, you know, underlines. And so back then that probably would have like destroyed my confidence. But now as a professional, I'm like, that's so cool. Like, it's cool that, you know, I am able to hear that feedback about myself and think, you know what, there are people out there who probably are like, she's really loud. She wears what she wants. She, you know, shows up and takes up space, like that's intimidating. Like that's scary. Like I can't believe she does that. But there are also so many people who are like, wow, that's really cool that you're able to do that. and like, I wish I was able to take up that space and be that person and do that thing. So it's really cool that we have the opportunity, not only with ourselves, but with our clients to be like,
Speaker: hey, just because this person thinks this thing about you, that is not true, but they believe it's true because of what they've been taught their entire lives about professionalism. It's so cool and so fun that we get to dispel that with ourselves and with our clients as well.
Speaker: Yeah. What's your first piece of advice when you're meeting with a potential client who sees your brand and is like, oh, I want to feel that freedom and ability to show up as myself and loud and colorful and whatever. but has those teachings like in their head, like we all do and did What is your approach to showing them the light? It's hard. I will say that as someone, again, who has been a business owner for six years,
Speaker: and has shown up on social media and obviously have, as we all have, right? You're talking about like your brand being white and green and neutral. We've all had those periods where we have kind of forced ourselves to fit in a little bit more or, you know, to do what we think people want to see and what people think will take us seriously.
Speaker: and it's a practice it's a constant practice you're constantly having to make choices and to think i recently went through this phase of feeling like i really can't post like x y and z because i want to work with clients who are of a certain caliber and they do certain things and they have a certain client load and that you know all of those things and then i was like well wait a second like those clients are looking for someone like me they are not looking for someone to come in and like help them with messaging And with copy, someone who's like super rigid and inflexible and is going to make the process a lot of back and forth and it feels really difficult. No, they want someone who is different. They want someone who is going to help them.
Speaker: get a different result. And that's exactly why they're in business. So it's a lot of reminding yourself of that, which is so difficult. And I think something that we've talked about off of this podcast offline is just the fact that like everything and everyone is blending together. And so I think it can be so hard when you see so much of like the same repeated messaging, the same type of carousel, the same type of reel, the same type of email over and over.
Speaker: it's really hard to do something differently if no one else is doing that thing. Right. Or like very few people are doing that thing. So yeah, Just it's it's honestly just like a ah constant reminder of like being true to yourself.
Speaker: Would my ideal client want this? Do I want to work with people who get this? Yes, that I have to. I have to do this. I have to not do myself a disservice. I have to not do my future clients a disservice because if they don't see me showing up that way, they're not going to know that I am the person that they should work with.
Speaker: Right. The reason I chose my original branding, like the neutral branding, is because it appears professional and it seemed reflective of the type of work that I do, which is systems. It's like me at a desk with my laptop.
Speaker: Um, but then when I shifted my branding, it was about a year into business. So I had like some client experiences of people that I really liked working with and people that were great people, but like not really my ideal client. They didn't really have a need for me in what I can do best. And so what people miss with the show up authentically messaging is there is a way to both do that and also take on the attributes that not necessarily don't feel true to yourself, but feel ungodly.
Speaker: true to what you want to do in your business and who you want to attract. Like, I love the color pink. That's true about me. My water bottle is pink. My mic is pink. My mouse is pink. Same life. like i love I love the color pink, but then I take it to next level in my branding because i want to show up as fun and a little outrageous. And it's like,
Speaker: Fun and entertaining for me to do so. There's like a way to take on or dial up certain elements of your personality and your branding to attract the people that you actually want to work with. Like I don't really get inquiries from people that I wouldn't like working with.
Speaker: Same. It's a very, it's very clear to people who want to work with me, who I work with and if they would be a good fit, ah very safe similar to you. i am pretty much only getting inquiries people who are like, yeah, and I'm locked in. Like this is the person for me. i love getting feedback from clients that like, they're like, when we hopped on a call, like I just knew that like you were the person like right away. and That's such a compliment for me. The piece about just be yourself, I find that advice is so, it's so difficult. Like it's so hard, they' kind of similar to when like someone's like, oh, just tell me about yourself. And you're just like, oh, well, I don't, I don't, i don't know anything about but like, who am I? And I think too, part of it is of course, like a brand has to be strategic. Yes. Right. Like, are there parts of myself that I don't bring into my brand because they just a don't make sense and be, I'm not interested in having them be part of my brand, which is totally fair. And so instead of like asking yourself, what would i like to show up as? It's so helpful to instead reflect on like what you have already done.
Speaker: what you are doing and how you have shown up in the past. I did this thing. Did I like doing this thing? Did I like how I spoke here? Did I like how I showed up here? Vibe check? No? Yes? Okay. Those are signals to to move on. And I think too, especially in an era where our businesses are so online and there's so much social media and we're constantly getting emails from people and seeing people's posts,
Speaker: I think a lot of people think that they're being themselves, but actually are taking on characteristics and like pieces of other people's personalities and things who are successful and getting that confused with like just being themselves when they're actually like,
Speaker: Not even consciously, I think, like subconsciously picking up up pieces of like other people's identities and things and, you know, those kinds of values that they hold true. It's very interesting, very interesting watching other people express themselves through their businesses. And like, is that a true expression of you or is that something that is actually just you mirroring what someone else is doing because it makes them successful?
Speaker: Yeah. And that leads to two things when you're doing that too much in your business, because we all are learning from each other in the online space, especially if you're an online business owner. But even if you're boutique owner, you're going into other stores and you're like, oh I kind of like how they did that. And we interact with each other enough to be like, I like that they're doing this or I liked this messaging or... x y I wish I could do that, you know? And I think that like, that's a good and normal part of interacting and growing as an entrepreneur.
Speaker: But if you're leaning on that too much, it leads to like what we're seeing, especially now with AI, the just flattening where you just are no longer differentiated from the other people because you are copy and pasting their personality. But also that leads to some of the mistrust that we're seeing, especially with online service providers, because there are the people who are extremely successful because they're extremely good at what they do and extremely knowledgeable. and have really good systems that make their programs work really well.
Speaker: And then there are people who talk like them who don't have that knowledge or experience to back it up. And that leads to mistrust. Clients who hire this person who doesn't have the experience and assumes that everyone is that way or feels scammed, And I'm seeing so much of that in the online space of like, how do I know what I'm getting? It's heightened in my mind. Like I even have a client right now where I'm working in a new tool to meme. She knows that. But I've had to pivot, like as I've learned about the tool. I was like, this actually doesn't do everything that we need it to do. And now we have to pivot. And knowing how much mistrust there is in the online space, I feel like I almost have to like over explain like, why I'm making this decision.
Speaker: Because I don't want you to think that I'm just like, I lied to you. So you think that taking too many things from other people, not only is it not true to yourself, like authentic to your brand, it leads to a lot of the general mistrust that we're seeing in the ether of people feeling scammed by service providers.
Speaker: Yeah, one thing actually, and I'm wondering if you've seen this, especially since we are both people who are on threads. One thing that's been very interesting to see is someone will talk about a tool or a system and they're like, actually you should not use this thing. And then so many people get like riled up and they're like, Oh my gosh, like I need to switch. I need to switch. I'm going to be doing this thing. Oh no. Like what do I, and so often we are outsourcing our authority and things that we don't even necessarily need to be thinking about in our businesses. Right? Like if you weren't thinking about switching from that tool, and it's not causing a problem in your business, why are you taking advice from a person on social media who's like, hey, i you should switch, you should do this thing, right? And so I think it's so interesting how social media for business, you used to just be able to like post a picture and be like, buy my thing. And now it's like a whole thing. And if you're not careful, you're going to get sucked into taking on other people's opinions in business. or other people's approaches, even though it's like not even a thing you even thought that you wanted to do or like thought that you needed. um and so many people are like getting sucked in by that. And so, yeah, it's been really interesting to kind of watch this change on social media where there is so much mistrust, I think, because of what is happening on social media with so many service providers. know, it's really easy to look
Speaker: polished and put together and like you are an authority and to be putting out content that's like, oh my gosh, you should do this. You should do this. You should do this. But it's also so easy for us as people who are using social media for our businesses to consume that and be like, oh my gosh, like you're so right. I should be doing this and not this. And then you start changing things and then you wonder why you start feeling confused and tired and like nothing is working and like you're doing all these things. And It's just become so easy for social media to play such a role in in really how we're working and how we're understanding what we should be doing. And so much of it is like just, it's all it's all made up. Like it's all- And it's um all marketing. Like it's all influencing, right? Not all of it is paid influencing. There's another systems person, Systems Over Stress, who's also an ADHD systems person on threads. I have a ton of respect for her and her brand.
Speaker: She loves a tool called Moxie that's a CRM that's really affordable. I hate it. Like I go in there and I'm just like, this makes no sense. But like if someone has hated the tools that I work in most often, like Dubsado or HoneyBook, then I think are really intuitive and make a lot of sense to me and that I recommend them to my clients for that reason. If they hated those tools and they're like, I'm looking at Moxie, I'm like, go talk to her because she's the expert in it and it makes sense to her brain. And you should have somebody who gets your brain and can talk to you about it.
Speaker: That's why you can't get sucked into being like, oh, well, this but tool is better than this tool because literally all of our brains work differently. i see this as like a ClickUp person with Notion. Like Notion and ClickUp are...
Speaker: the the opposite tool yeah in my brain. Like they're structured literally the reverse of each other and ClickUp's really bright and Notion's very like clean and I aesthetically really like Notion. It just doesn't do what I want it to do.
Speaker: And because I'm used to ClickUp. And so... There are two different versions of that. And one isn't better than the other. Like I have reasons that I recommend ClickUp over Notion to my clients because those things are important to me. And I think that they are valuable to my clients. But like other people get so much benefit out of Notion because ClickUp doesn't work for their brain. That's the piece of it where it's like, okay, this is all influencing,
Speaker: to show authority of like, I know what I'm talking about, but there's so much nuance, just like there is to everything else, just like we were talking about with just be yourself. We contain multitudes, but social media kind of forces you to be in a box, to meet meet the algorithm's needs.
Speaker: And so we have to be careful about what we're, like, to your point, careful about what we're consuming and taking as like truth versus what is just I'm performing a little bit for the algorithm to be seen as an authority. 100%. It's been interesting, too. I've seen a lot of content recently.
Speaker: about like showing the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes, I guess you would call it. That sounds really like matrixy, but we see on social media, like a couple second video of like you doing something. Maybe it's like your, for example, like your morning routine. I was talking about this um with someone yesterday about like, it seems like the only way to be successful as a business owner is you see people on social media waking up at five in the morning and then they're doing their red light therapy and then they're going to Pilates and then they're drinking their cream and just like all of these things where you might see that and be like, oh my gosh, like all of these people are doing this thing that must mean that I have to do this thing in order to be successful or because My morning routine is not aesthetic enough. My morning routine does not look like that. For me personally, I roll out of bed. My husband and my daughter are typically already up. They're watching TV. I'm going rot on the couch and I'm going watch whatever show my kid is watching for like an hour while we like lazily get ready. Like that is my morning routine before I actually start getting ready for the day. Is that aesthetic? No. Can I post it on social media?
Speaker: I don't want to. I'm not interested in that, but It is so interesting how in the quest to get people to buy our services and to get people to like us on social media, that we have gone this route of like showing all of the things that we're not even actually doing slash like would only do on like the most ideal version of ourselves. Like you cannot, you cannot tell me these people aren't doing this every day. And if you are, that's amazing. And I'm really jealous. How are you doing this? And also how are you affording this? Like How are you?
Speaker: How are you living in this life? And do you ever sleep? um But it's it's so interesting how, yeah, in the quest to like promote ourselves and our services is gone from like, yeah, just being able to put up a post or be able to put up a flyer or be able to, you know, do something so simple. it is now turned into a whole performance. There is like this like delicate balance of being vulnerable, but not too How do I say this? For example, let's say that you are posting on social media and you're like, oh my gosh, my business sucks. I'm having trouble getting work back to clients. Like I'm feeling really splendid, really overwhelmed. Obviously as a potential client, I don't want to hear that you're having trouble getting like work back to your current clients, right? Like I feel like that is like a little bit of a level of vulnerability where I'm like, that is definitely a trust breaker. Like, will you get what I need to do done? And like, is it going to be high quality? and Is it going to be what I want?
Speaker: you can We can also be vulnerable while still you know maintaining some set of boundaries and like professionalism, I will say, which is really difficult because, again, like what is professionalism? And on social media, it's so interesting when building our businesses and trying to have to consider this. And what I will say is that what I kind of view is this like...
Speaker: kind of like balancing vulnerability and professionalism. I view professionalism now, instead of it being like what were talking about earlier, what you wear, how you show up, what you're doing. I'm viewing it now more a days as like, are you returning my emails? Are you keeping me in the loop?
Speaker: Are you speaking to me in a nice way instead of like, you know, i don't know, being mean to me, please don't be mean to me. um But like those sorts of things where it's like, it's just the basic human courtesies that I think we all need and deserve, but have gone very out the window with all of the things that we're doing on the internet these days.
Speaker: There are a lot of pressures coming to business owners from all sides, whether it's like, you should be using this tool or you should be doing this thing, or you should have this morning or routine. But I, at least for myself, I like to think of my brand as a container. Like these are the things that I do in my brand. And these are the things that I don't do in my brand. And that doesn't mean that like I, as a person can't live outside that container. But it's it's a helpful practice for me to kind of set that boundary of like the types of things that I share about. I'm very vocal about local politics and national politics because those are things that I care about and I want my clients to be. aligned with.
Speaker: But then like when it comes to business stuff, I'm mostly just like talking about what I do, good experiences with my clients. One example is i have a client who she had never hired outside of her family before and hired me and a team. So like me and a team of contractors that I put together and she messaged me like a month in and she goes, I feel like you guys are my sisters and that i you're so easy to talk to and work with. And like that's the highest compliment you could receive from somebody who's only worked with their family. That you feel like family to them. And I was like, this is so sweet. And like, those are the kinds of things that I share on threads about like my experiences with my clients outside of like work, because that's ultimately what I want people to know about working with me is that like,
Speaker: this is the person that you're getting. And here's how I make my clients feel because this is how I want my clients to feel. And I want people to feel like I'm there for them and I'm supporting them and I'm easy to talk to and I understand their business and their chaos and their whatever. Yeah, I they view it very much as like, here's a container of boundaries, but I don't need to talk about the things that I'm stressed about in my business. That's for the group chat. That's for like talking to my partner, talking to my other business friends like IRL. um
Speaker: Because for me, I'm like, it honestly stresses me out to put that out there. Because i I'm like, you don't need to know because we're inevitably going to be stressed out about stuff as business owners. There are inevitably going to be times where we feel like a failure or that we're not doing good enough or x y and Z. Like we're human. We're going to feel that way. But putting it out there doesn't do anything for my client's trust or knowledge of what it's going to be like to work with me or who I am as a person. A hundred percent. And I think too, so much has shifted. We've talked about this a little bit already, but the way that social media has shifted, I feel like when, I don't know how long you have been on social media as a business owner specifically, but I have been on social media as a business owner since 2020 and things were very different back then where it felt a lot more common for business owners to like be a little bit more chaotic, you know, but I think in a good way, I think things have
Speaker: changed and shifted. And I think especially with the ways that I want people, the things that I want people to know about me and remember about me is not that I am on. So it showed up on social media talking about how stressed I am and how overwhelming things are, which like, of course, yes, things are stressful. Things are overwhelming. And sometimes you do need a community to help you out. Like I've seen a lot of posts of small businesses who are really struggling with tariffs and with, of course, like the pandemic. And sometimes that stuff is so helpful to get that business continuing to to go. But I think there's such a difference between like, you know, talking all the time about how stressful being a business owner is. And, you know, like there there is definitely a difference. And I don't want people to think of me as a, I don't want people to think of me as like the person who, if you're my client and you do something that I don't like, I'm going to post about it on social media, like about how stressful my business is, how stressful my clients are. Because that's going to make people feel bad or like wonder like, is this, is this about me? Like, is this about us? So I don't clients to think that. But I think the other thing too, is like people will remember how you made them feel. Not even just like in your content. Obviously i love when people are like, oh, I love your content. Like it makes me think about things a different way. you Like you're so positive. Like it always makes me happy and excited to like consume or like watch what you're doing.
Speaker: But even if it's not something that like I remember doing or like making someone feel, it's so cool. I have this client, for example, who we ended needing switch her package around a little bit. We had originally agreed on because she had things come up and i kind of just like forgot that it was a thing that we had done. But the number of times that she's mentioned, like, I'm so grateful you were so flexible and you were willing and able to to move things around. And like, that meant a lot to me. And so I think we often underestimate how much even like those bits of like,
Speaker: humanness really impacts the people who we're working with, especially when we're all online and we're all meeting via zoom and like talking to each other through social media. It can be really hard to remember that the other side of the screen is just people. Like we're all people. We all want to talk to other people. We all want to feel seen and understood. And it's so important as a business owner to just Even if it's it's not necessarily even something that you're you know consciously like, oh, I'm going to do this thing because it's going to be really nice. And so someone's going remember it. Right. It's just treating people the way that you would want to be treated as a client, as a person. and seeing your clients as people. You're not just a dollar sign to me.
Speaker: You are a person. You might be stressed about the financials in your business. You might be stressed. Like there are realities to hiring somebody for not a small amount of money to help you in your business because you're stressed or you're overwhelmed or you're doing too many things. When we can empathize with people as people, it doesn't mean that we're devaluing ourselves. And I've been talking about this more and more because I see so much stuff about like, oh, but if you're like a good empathetic person, then you can't be profitable as a business owner. because then you're giving your services away for free. And I'm like, no, there's a way to be a good and empathetic person and be profitable and value yourself. In fact, personally biased, I think it's the way to be a profitable business owner is to also be a good person. But like there are ways that you can address the realities and the stresses that your client's having without devaluing yourself.
Speaker: 100%. I think it's been really interesting recently. i'm working a lot of my clients experience, which like we love that. I've been thinking a lot about the ways in which I have felt valued and seen as a customer or client recently. and It's so interesting because so much of our customer service that we're receiving, especially with like the rise in like ai chatbots for, my I'm just like, I'm getting the worst customer service. I'm paying more than I ever have. no one can help me. no one is empathizing. And like, obviously i also empathize for, the humans who are on the other side of these like massive corporations who are having to do this, they're probably dealing with so much, but like the companies who I am like hearing about and enjoying, for example, like Chewy, i don't have any pets. So the only interactions I have with this company
Speaker: are people posting about them on social media and the amazing things that they do for their clients, which like, they're not doing it for the club. Like they're not doing it so that people will post them. I mean, probably like it is really helpful. And like, they're probably like, Oh, we do hope people post when like, we'll reimburse people if they ordered a bag of dog food and their dog has died and they don't need that. And they'll send flowers. for people when they' when their cat or their dog or their animal dies. And I think that is just so freaking cool. And I hear that and I'm like, I i want to become a customer. If I ever have a pet, I'm going to encourage people to become a customer. Because like that level of care and that level of like, I see you as a human and I know what you're going through, like this must be so hard, is so valuable and we don't get it. And another great example, I went to a co-working space recently that I've been to for a couple of events, but I'd never like actually co-worked there. And I had gotten a day pass to, to go there and to do the thing. And I've done that a lot in a lot of local co-working spaces, but it's my first time there. And the experience and the way that they treated me was just absolutely incredible. Like just as someone who was just visiting there for the day, not buying a month long or like a year long membership, just the way that they
Speaker: remembered my name, the way that they checked in about things, the way that they like worked really hard to make things right. Those experiences just made me feel so seen. And especially in the context of all of these like bad customer service experiences that we're having. And two, with like the mistrust in the online space, it feels like every day i'm talking to someone who's like, I made a bad hire and it is impacted me so much financially, mentally, emotionally, whatever.
Speaker: and I'm just like, there has got to be a way that we can tap into just being more human with our clients, with our customers, with people, not so much as in like, I need to do this to self-serve, to grow my business. Of course it is going to help by proxy grow your business, right? People will talk about you, but like, how can make people feel so good and so seen and so encouraged and heard and just so good in a world where we're so used to receiving feedback?
Speaker: people getting angry at us over everything, negative threads, everything just feels hard and bad. And how can we turn all of that into something that people feel like they're talking and they're working with a human? Like that is such a a cool thing that we get to do as business owners. And I wanna do more of it. I want other people to do more of it too.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think it goes both ways. Like as a client or as a customer, I am a very active in my local business community, as in I love going to the coffee shops and supporting them with my money and getting yummy coffee and baked goods. And the coffee shops that I go back to the most often, i live in the city, so I can walk to a bunch of stuff. They're not even the ones that I like walk to most often. There's one that's like an 11 minute drive bike ride
Speaker: And I love that one because it's like a community hub that people ask me about what I'm working on. It's like half people co-working and half people meeting with other people. The locals all go there. The baristas know the people's names. They have their regular dogs. And like, even if I'm just sitting there by myself for like six hours, I'm like, this is the kind of place that I want to be supporting because it's like, I love being in that environment where even if I'm somewhat anonymous because I just have my headphones in and I'm sitting at a table by myself, I know that they care.
Speaker: And this is a place that supports people. And similarly, one of the coffee shops that I can walk to, terrible coffee. My husband and I walk there like we used to go there like once a week, even though he likes the coffee. I think it's bad. But we walk there because in our neighborhood, very much the community hub, like it has regulars who are there. It's not really like a co-working spot for most people. It's really just like a gathering space and similar. Baristas know everyone's names. And I came from a food service background, so I also know on the other side what it feels like to have regulars and to like know your customers' names. And it's fulfilling for you, too, as a service provider.
Speaker: And so it's like those are the experiences that are memorable when you're a customer. is, oh this person really cared about me or I saw this person caring about other people and i know i just noticed that and that makes me want to support this person or this place more. ah Then that's something that we want to bake into, like you said, your client experience.
Speaker: of how can I make my client feel that way? And I like that you brought up the AI support because, oh my gosh, if I have to talk to another like AI chatbot, I'm going to lose my damn mind. And with what I do in automation, a lot of people are afraid that they will lose their high touch customer experience by automating out some of their onboarding or offboarding process. And I'm like, yes, if you're like using ai to write your emails, 100 percent, you're losing that high touch experience because people are going to feel that and it's going to feel impersonal.
Speaker: But like if you're automating an email that you have in your head, like templated already because it's what you send to every inquiry. or it's the email that you're afraid to send after like a month being like, hey, I'd love it if you left me a review or you that you might not send because you feel weird about it. Then like those are great things to automate out your clients getting that experience and that touch point from you. And it's your voice and it's your words and it's how you would actually talk to them. but
Speaker: It's not dependent on whether you have time today or if you had to take your dog to the vet or like whatever. It's not dependent on your schedule to give them that experience.
Speaker: A hundred percent. I've actually seen you talking a lot on threads recently about collecting testimonials and people feel so weird about that. and I totally agree. Automate that because people feel weird. So many service providers tell me they're like, I don't have many or any, or I don't have any updated ones, which are so important when we are doing any sort of strategy, any sort of messaging, any sort of copy, we need very specific feedback from the clients you have loved working with. And i think it is so, so, so, so valuable more so than, you know, i think for a long time, a lot of people were, you know, naturally, of course, pulling up AI and asking things about their target audience and getting that feedback and getting those things. But the easiest thing that you can do to know what to post about, to know what to say to your target audience, to know what they need to hear, to know what they want to buy from you. is to actually talk to the people who have already purchased from you. They want to tell you about their experience, what they loved. They want to tell you about, you know, the ways that you made them feel special. They want to tell you what would they buy from you in the future? What, why would they continue working with you? What would they tell a friend? People want to tell you that stuff. And I think that we do ourselves such a disservice when we're not asking for those things. But I also recognize that like it is it is hard as a person to be like, hey, can you give me some, like can you say nice things about me? like No pressure, but like please fill out this form and say nice things. So if we can automate and we can get that, great. But we really, really, really need to like rely on what we're hearing from the people that we are working with. And i think we are also at the same time, if we're not allowing people to give feedback, we're also doing a disservice because they want to talk about
Speaker: what we are doing well for them. Right. And I think too, you know, a lot of people are afraid of negative feedback or like getting constructive criticism. I have learned to, you know, I'm very sensitive person. Like as a kid, I was the kid who like cried over everything and I still am the adult who cries over everything, but it is that such a tool to become comfortable with like getting feedback from other people. i think it's easy probably to get like feedback or reassurance from AI because it's going to like soften the blow. But getting feedback from actual people who are the ones consuming your service or considering purchasing it or are those trusted people in the group chat who you go to and you're like, hey, I have this sales page. I have this you know offer I'm thinking about. What do you guys think about that?
Speaker: That human feedback, we feedback. that challenge and that little bit of friction to ask for the testimonial, to ask for the feedback, to get other people's thoughts and feelings and opinions. Because if we're only considering our own and then getting it validated by the robots, I mean, like we're we're miss completely missing the whole part of like, why are you trying to sell things to other humans if you're not going to involve humans in any part of the process? That doesn't make any sense. not going to figure out what they want. Right?
Speaker: the robots don't know what the humans want. Like they don't know. They can only know if like every person types their hopes and dreams, like what they wanted for the future into like Google and like Google had it. I don't know how that would work, but like they can't know like your people, like you can know your people. And it just, I think again, like just as we've said so many times, like it's such a privilege to be able to get to know people in your business. And it's such a privilege to be able to get that feedback from them, to get those those thoughts, those feelings, and to have such a cool experience getting to know someone else. And like i know it has been so... how do I say what I want to say? it has been, i think, made really...
Speaker: not as much of a big deal as it actually is for someone who does work like you and I do, where someone is handing you like thousands of dollars. That is a big f freaking deal.
Speaker: That's a big freaking deal. And yeah, it's become so normalized because, you know, everyone's, you know, doing the thing, everyone's charging the the big bucks. But like, if you are giving me that money, I'm going to give you my whole human self for that in exchange for that.
Speaker: Obviously, like, yeah, you've talked about this before, like having boundaries and stuff like that, obviously. um But like, you're, you're paying for that piece of me, like you're paying for that piece of my brain. And that piece of my best work. And that's what you should be getting. egg Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah, I think, too, about my clients who are taking on or documenting or planning someone's one of the biggest events of their life, if not the biggest event of their life, if they enjoyed their wedding day.
Speaker: at all. They're going to be, unless you really didn't give your best, unless you are a scammer, which there are those in the wedding industry, people are going to be so you're like on a high after your wedding. You're going to be so excited to be like, oh my gosh, working with this photographer was the best thing ever. They did such a great job. I'm so excited to see like the sneak peeks they sent me were so great. Or ah My gallery came out so great. I can't wait to print these photos.
Speaker: Or like, I didn't have to worry about anything. They really took care of it. People want to say those things about you, whether you believe that in your head or not. If you're doing good work, if you're a business owner that's been successful because a lot of people have hired you or you get a lot of referrals or whatever, you have to believe that people want to say nice things about you.
Speaker: Like your clients, not the strangers on the Internet, not AI that's going to tell you that you're great no matter what your idea is. But like the people that you have worked with already, the people that are working with you currently, they want to tell you about what they appreciate And I'm someone that has a really hard time not internalizing negative feedback. But like you said, I have to do that too. And I think you can kind of strategically set yourself up for success. Like I switched CRMs recently.
Speaker: i am technically kind of in the middle of a CRM switch and I don't have my workflows, the stuff that I do for other people, like super ironed out right now because There are things that I wanted to change from the way that I used to do things. I've been really busy with client work in the same way that like most service providers are the worst at doing what they do for their own business. it's It's just not built out in the way that I want it to be yet. And so for me, I'm like, I know this is something that I have to do. It's on my to do list.
Speaker: I'm not asking for feedback right now, but once I have the things in place the way that I want them, then that's also time for me to like put in a feedback form in that last email or say, hey, I'd love any feedback on your experience throughout the process. It's not that they're not getting a good experience now. It's just that it's a lot more manual than I'd like it to be right now. And so I know that things aren't in as much lockstep as they will be in a month.
Speaker: And so you can kind of set yourself up for success of like, okay, I did this the way that I think is best. Now let me like get feedback from other people so that I can incorporate it.
Speaker: And if you have to read it and then like step away and go for a walk, that's okay too. It's okay for the feedback to make you feel a certain way. Like that is very normal. I don't know that I will ever be able to read like constructive criticism, even though i've asked for it.
Speaker: And it will ever feel like I'm not getting the worst news of my life. yeah It is such an important skill. I know that as a business owner, I don't know everything. or sometimes there's just like a thing that I didn't even think about that like would be helpful for my clients. But I can't know that unless I am willing to ask and willing to be a little bit uncomfortable and be willing to continue.
Speaker: to grow and learn and evolve and get better. Because I mean, like, what's the point of working with clients if I think that my way is the only way that everything I do is the best? Like, I'm never going to grow as a service provider. what like What's the point? You're just going to stay stagnant.
Speaker: Yeah. And but you're showing your clients that you care about them by asking that and that you care about like their experience as a client, And that you're willing to change.
Speaker: And I think, too, if you struggle with receiving that feedback, take the the CBT approach of like, OK, how can I reframe this in a positive way? not in I did everything is perfect and everything I do is right and this client is just wrong. Not in that way, but what's my approach for improvement? Like what's an actionable step that I can take to make this better? Because I want my client experience to be amazing and i want people to think that they're getting all of these things. And this person just gave me the opportunity to kind of peek into their mind and make my next client's experience even better.
Speaker: that mindset, I try to do that and I still sometimes feel like I've been shot in the chest when I receive... Like the most minor critique of my work because you care about it so much. But practicing that is a helpful way to be like, okay, we can, we can grow and it can still be hard, but we're going to try.
Speaker: Yeah, it's interesting to how I don't know about you, but my first jump in my brain is always defensiveness, not one like not towards anyone. But I think it's so helpful once you're able to take a step back. for it Like, for example, one of the things that said, like top of mind, like piece of feedback that I got was a client was like, Oh, it would have been nice to receive a final copy of this document that you hear us. And I was like,
Speaker: But I did do that. Like I i did do that. I know I 100% did that. But instead of emailing client and be like, I did this thing, like, why did you not appreciate it? It's like, oh, I did the thing. But like, could I have done this in a way that would be easier for me and the client to like know 100% sure that they feel good, they feel secure. So like, if that wasn't even like a thing of like, you suck, you didn't do this. It was just like, oh, the client just genuinely was not aware. And what can I take into that? into my workflows, into the way I approach working with clients in the future to make sure that they feel secure and they feel really good. Because yeah, again, like they are paying me a lot of money, frankly, to be able to work with me. And that is a privilege. And so if it means that, you know, sometimes my ego gets hurt, that's okay. It is going to help me genuinely improve for the future. yeah.
Speaker: And I think there can be a misconception that if you are changing the way that you do things based on your client's feedback, that that's like changing who you are and not being true to yourself or authentic or whatever. That's the ego speaking, unless it's like a client that was clearly really dissatisfied and leaving you like a negative review, dragging you whatever. You can, you know, say, wow, that's like really out of line or I understand why they feel that way. And this sucks to hear this. But taking that feedback and saying, OK, this is an opportunity. This person clearly wants me to improve.
Speaker: Unless they're saying like really mean things about you, they just want it to be better. They just want you to succeed. And you started your business if you're a service provider because you like helping people do the specific thing that you provide and you want your client experience to be great.
Speaker: And your clients want it to be great, too. And this doesn't mean redoing my entire business structure or like changing the entire way I do things. It might just be like, oh, for wedding providers, they know so much about the wedding industry, but people who come to them know virtually nothing. It's usually their first time doing this and will be their only time. Like they're learning everything right. for the first time.
Speaker: And so there's frustration where it's like, ah, why didn't the client know this? Or like they should have known or why why is it my job to educate them or whatever? And I'm like, no, it by nature of your industry, it is your job to educate them.
Speaker: And that's just that's not changing how you run your business. That's changing how you write a few emails or like changing what information you include on your services page. or on like a document that you send out to them or the proposal. like it's not They're not asking you to fully like reconfigure your entire business structure, even in your case with the, oh, I didn't receive that document. And you're like, yes, you did. okay well, maybe that's just a, hey, here's that final version of the document and then like link that out. It's a one line of communication change to make that more clear. And what you learned from that is that it just wasn't clear to the client that that had happened. So that's why I think a lot of people get in their head about like, well, if I'm taking all this feedback, then I'm just changing like who I am and how I do my business for to please other people. And people pleasing is like a triggering topic for especially women and marginalized groups of all kinds. But it's a lot of the time, it's just like, okay, but if I changed one line in this email, that would actually solve the problem.
Speaker: And that's not changing who I am. Exactly. Well, as we come to the end, I like to ask, what is your humanity hot take right now? I feel like we all need to calm down a little bit online.
Speaker: just feel like everyone I can understand why. i think Everyone is so like the tensions are so heightened. Like everyone is so quick to assume like the worst of the worst when they see, for example, like a threads post saying whatever. I feel like I could pull up my phone and just come up with like three examples right off the bat. But A, we need to remember that there's a person on the other side of the screen, right? We are all human. And I think social media and like technology has done such a great job of bringing us together, but also such a great job of bringing us together.
Speaker: apart and helping us forget that we are all actually like really similar and we're all people. and We all just want to be liked and appreciated and seen. And I think that there is so much going on on social media right now that just feels the world feels really bad and really like dark and everyone Feels like they're just being so mean to each other. But I think that, again, like that is such a function of capitalism and how it really wants to divide us and like make us be individuals who are sitting on our phones, like arguing with each other instead of, you know, like going to the coffee shop in person. And like the briefs is like, OK, like, how's it going? And like there's regulars, you know. So I feel like honestly, like if even like a couple of people took a second, like we all just took a hot second to like put our phones down.
Speaker: and thought before we like rage responded to someone or told someone that they were being dumb or like whatever response we want to, I think that things would just improve.
Speaker: so, so, so much. We're all just so like angry at each other and so frustrated at everyone and everything. But like the problem is typically not like one other person, like that random person on road or that random person who cut you off in traffic. Like we all need to come together instead of being individuals who are just so frustrated with everything. Like we could, we could all make it better together. We just gotta, we just gotta work together instead of leaving mean threads about each other.
Speaker: Yes, I totally agree. And i also like to throw in the reminder that you control your algorithm, too. If you are getting fed a lot of content that's really triggering to you, you're probably engaging in a lot of content that's really triggering to you, whether you're... commenting on it or reading it for a long time or watching the video that pisses you off or looking at the comments like all of those things inform how your algorithm sends you information. And so if you're like, I'm getting fed a lot of triggering content like search for something neutral or that you want to be seeing. And then like only engage with the stuff that you like.
Speaker: You have permission to do that, too. Like you don't have to argue with people online. and the less you do it, the less you'll see it. Exactly. i love that take.
Speaker: Maddie, thanks for being here. it was so lovely to chat in person. Where can people find you? This was so fun. You can find me over on Instagram is where I am most often by Maddie O'Coin. You can also find me on threads ah trying to find all the the good, happy things instead of the sad, depressing, angry things. um But yeah, that's typically where I'm hanging out these days.
Speaker: Well, thanks, Maddie. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. You can find this episode and more wherever you listen to podcasts. And you can follow us on Instagram at whereisyourhumanitypod.
Speaker: Our lovely theme music is created by Emily Bjorki. And you can listen to her new single, No Angel, out now. And her upcoming album, Are You Going to Heaven or Hell, out on October 15th.
Speaker: For more information about me, Gail, and the work that I do you can go to worksimple.io, my website. or you can follow me on all the platforms, Instagram, TikTok, threads, also at worksimple.io. See you next time.
