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Episode 368: Tyler Hooper
1.1k Plays2 years ago
Tyler Hooper (@thooper8) is the writer behind The Atavist Magazine piece "Titanic of the Pacific."
Social: @CNFPod
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
Substack: rageagainstthealgorithm.substack.com
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
AC and efforts.
Introduction to Adivist Magazine and CNF Pod
00:00:03
Speaker
It's the Adivistian time of the month. Your Adivist magazine bonus podcast. So, you know, spoiler alerts.
Writing Process Insights
00:00:11
Speaker
I think my first rough draft is my outline. That's kind of what I'm learning about myself. Like my first drafts are very rough.
00:00:23
Speaker
Oh hey, CN efforts at CNF Pod, that creative non-fiction podcast. Not that one, that one. The show where I speak to badass people about telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara, how's it going? Here we go again.
Nautical Disaster Stories
00:00:36
Speaker
I hope you're not tired of nautical disaster stories. For episode 366, a couple weeks ago.
00:00:42
Speaker
We welcome back David Gran for his book The Wager, you know him. And now we have Tyler Hooper, whose piece, The Titanic of the Pacific, is this month's feature for the Adivis magazine, A Tale of Disaster, Survival, and Ghosts. You'll find that at magazine.adivis.com. Go ahead, go and subscribe to them. No, I don't get any kickback, so you know my recommendation is true. We just love them. Love them.
00:01:09
Speaker
Tyler is at Ty Hooper on Twitter and you can learn more about his work at tylerhooperw.com.
00:01:18
Speaker
He blogs over at medium.com slash at Ty Hooper, but we'll hear more from him in a moment, okay? Just hang tight. Make sure you're heading over to BrendanOmera.com for show notes and to sign up for the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. It's now on Substack. Just click the lightning bolt on my website or visit rageagainstthealgorithm.substack.com. Still first of the month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it.
00:01:45
Speaker
If you dig this show, consider sharing it with your networks so we can grow the pie and get this CNFing thing into the brains of other CNFers who need the juice, man.
00:01:55
Speaker
You can also leave a kind review on Apple Podcasts. I mean, or a mean one, but why would you take the time to do a mean one if you're going to leave a review anyway? I don't think I'm that offensive. Am I? Am I? The wayward CNFer might see all those nice reviews and ratings that we have and go, shit, I'll give that a shot. Like many of the 132 as of this date, those ratings.
00:02:16
Speaker
A good chunk of them, I would say almost half are written reviews, which is bonkers when you think about it. So I just thank you for taking the time to do that. And it really helps validate the show. And if you want to go a step further, there's patreon.com slash cnfpod where you can consider dropping a few bucks in the hat if you glean some value from what we churn and burn here at CNF Pod HQ. She was free, but as you know, sure as hell ain't cheap.
Editorial Decision-Making in Publishing
00:02:45
Speaker
Alright, first things first, we're gonna hear from Jonah Ogles, the lead editor of this piece. He's back! It's great to have Jonah back into the fold. Probably nobody happier than Sayward Darby, who got a reprieve from having to speak to me this month. Jonah talks about how he can prune giant limbs off a story, and what questions he and Sayward bounce around when they're in pitch meetings.
00:03:08
Speaker
So why wait? Here is Jonah Ogles to lead things off risk.
00:03:24
Speaker
And Cassidy Randall had her piece on, you know, the woman who sailed, who tried to sail around the world, essentially. And then, you know, you had done Bill Donahue's piece where there's the kayak thing across the Bering Strait, and then there was Cassidy's piece, and now Tyler's got a shipwreck piece. It's like, you just get these seafaring pieces. They seem to really resonate with you, I think.
00:03:45
Speaker
I know they clearly do. I clearly have like a boat weakness in pitches. Maybe Avi Seyward and I were talking about this. And I do think there's something sort of like inherently, there's like an inherent tension to the act of being at sea. You're just like at the whims of huge forces. And I think you have to be like a little bit of a risk taker
00:04:12
Speaker
naturally, you know, to even like, I'm, I'm not buying a boat to sail across anywhere, you know, I don't, I don't want to sail across like, the little inland lake here in town, like, like, the shore is just fine for me. So yeah, there's certainly a lot of them. And they, but they, I mean, they've all been really good stories and really fun to work on.
00:04:37
Speaker
Yeah, there's something about a seafaring story that there's obviously there's motion and the principal figures are in motion and sometimes that can be really challenging to come across in narrative nonfiction storytelling where the
00:04:55
Speaker
where your principal figures even as you're telling the story omnisciently is like they are in action they are moving and they are at odds with the elements so it's uh there's a natural propulsion that i think that that comes across with uh you know water stories yeah totally and i mean one of the questions saver denied often ask and
00:05:17
Speaker
of writers who are pitching stories is like, okay, where does the story end? You know, where does it go and how does it end? And you're right, a sailing trip.
00:05:28
Speaker
has a natural start point at the very least. It's expedition stories in general. It was always a gift at outside, I felt like, to deal in topics where there was natural movement and natural propulsion to the narrative itself.
00:05:52
Speaker
So yeah, they're good ones to mine maybe for writers who are looking for stories, although probably harder and harder to get them assigned at the address, the more of them we do. But who knows? And maybe take us inside.
00:06:07
Speaker
a pitch meeting between you and Sayward when you might have a pile of them and you're trying to make those critical decisions of which ones you're going to run with because you've run 12 a year so the real estate is finite and you're making those decisions like what are those discussions like between the two of you? Yeah, I know. I've been
00:06:31
Speaker
This is a great question and I was trying to sort of explain some of this to a writer who was pitching recently because he had a good idea, you know, like it's that there's a story there. It's a good one. He has characters. He's done the reporting, but we didn't assign it, you know, and so and that's like
00:06:55
Speaker
Those are the conversations that are hardest for us to have and probably hardest for writers to hear about. Because the easy, there are some stories that come in and they're just home runs. Everything's there and for whatever reason, both Sabert and I are just naturally interested in it. That happens sometimes.
00:07:21
Speaker
But more often we're dealing with like a story where maybe it has just one of those elements that we're looking for. So that's kind of the first, if an idea has some meat to it, that's the first thing we start talking about.
00:07:37
Speaker
is okay, what things are we looking for that it doesn't have? Do we have more questions about source material and how rich it is and how the material itself will help the writer build out these really vivid, rich scenes that we like to have in our stories? That's a pretty common one. Another one is
00:07:59
Speaker
About the beginning middle and end like okay. I can see You know sort of the animating event that kicks everything off But what is like act two and act three look like for the story or like okay? There's a lot of good stuff happening in the story, but is there a particular character? you know we just don't feel attached to like an individual in the story and how do we
00:08:24
Speaker
get attached to someone and have sort of a guide to get us through the piece. So we're kicking those types of questions around and then going back to a writer and asking for more and seeing if we can sort of develop it. And I feel like for me,
00:08:47
Speaker
The difference in a story that we assign after asking those questions and don't assign is basically like, do I get more interested or more confident in the story as we're moving along? And if I do, like,
00:09:03
Speaker
That's what we want. I like when I get an answer that surprises me or makes me feel more assured that like, okay, not only does this writer know what they're doing, but pieces are there. Every time we turn to ask a question, there's an obvious answer. And then other times we just get less interested.
00:09:26
Speaker
And the story is as we ask questions, you know, and that's sort of, I think that's the tough thing for writers to hear because they're obviously very excited about it. And, you know, they have all this information at hand. So it's not as if they can't answer the questions, but sometimes as they answer them, I just think, oh, I'm just not surprised by this, you know, like it sort of
00:09:52
Speaker
moving in a direction that I could have predicted. And when we can only publish 12 stories a year, that can sometimes be enough to say like, no, we just, we don't want to wade into
Research and Story Development
00:10:02
Speaker
this.
00:10:02
Speaker
And in what ways did Tyler's story hear about the Valencia and the shipwreck and everything involved increase your confidence in the story and his ability to pull it off? Yeah. Well, he, I mean, it was a good pitch from the get go, you know, like it, it, it has, it, narratively speaking, like the story has the goods, you know, with Tyler,
00:10:28
Speaker
you know, he just, he knew so much about it. So that, that always makes us feel confident, you know, because sometimes we'll reach out and we'll say, well, you know, what is
00:10:40
Speaker
what does so-and-so say about this? And the writer will say, I don't know, I haven't talked to him. And that's sort of a red flag, at least a yellow flag. And when Tyler, he just, he so clearly had done the research that he always had an answer. So that was certainly confidence inspiring. And the story itself,
00:11:06
Speaker
I mean, I don't remember exactly, I should have reread the pitch. I don't remember exactly what questions I asked, but I know that the more I learned about the story, it just came into
00:11:19
Speaker
clearer and clearer focus as we talked, whether that was in the pitch stage or like actually in writing drafts and talking about how the story should move along. The characters were just there, you know, and there was rich source material that Tyler both knew and was able to find in the first place. So it was one of those stories where it just really didn't hit many hiccups, you know, just sort of moved along pretty steadily.
00:11:48
Speaker
I understand that when you were first having your conversations, I think he was wondering, you know, how much should I be writing? And I think you might have told him, be like, you know what, just throw it all in. Just write as much as you want. And then he took that leash and he ran with it and gave something like 40,000 words.
00:12:10
Speaker
And something of that nature might be off by a few thousand or two. But then, you know, he was, he loved how you essentially cut it in half, if not more. And he was like, oh, this is great. So when you read that giant chunk and started to whittle, not even whittle, like take off giant limbs to like, essentially deforest. Yeah.
00:12:34
Speaker
the piece. Yeah, how did you go about doing that so you kept what made the story special for the Adivus without totally, you know, I guess like, you know, gutting.
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I mean, I credit Tyler with being open to being edited in that way, you know, because it's not every writer's preferred method of working. And sometimes it's, you know, depending on the writer, you know, sometimes it's not actually that helpful, you know, for me to do that type of cutting. But, you know, in this particular story,
00:13:19
Speaker
I mean, Tyler just has so, he did so much research, you know, like he easily has a book length story about the Valencia in him, you know, if that's something he wants to do. And so for me, really all I did was focus it on
00:13:39
Speaker
this particular incident in the Valencia's life and the characters that were on it. And so anything that didn't pertain to this one trip sort of just went by the wayside.
00:14:00
Speaker
I don't know if I'm unique in this, I suspect not. I suspect there are editors who don't mind cutting and there are editors who probably struggle with doing it, but I can be brutal. I have no problem just running in with a running chainsaw and just hacking a story to bits, but not because the quality of the writing is bad or anything, but just like we got to pare this down.
00:14:28
Speaker
so i do in my in my cutting i keep every line that i cut you know if it's like a couple paragraphs or less i just drop it in a comment a comment in the document and if it's a section or two sections i just pull it into its own document and leave a note for myself like this is where this cut goes because so i basically put it out of my head like how is this all going to read and i just
00:14:57
Speaker
empty the piece of words you know i just remove words as fast as i can and then i read it through again and say like oh crap i need a transition here or like oh that section that i cut actually did have some information that i want to work back in so between those couple stages it ends up it actually doesn't take me much time and and in this case like
00:15:23
Speaker
Sometimes you have to do a lot of, like, massaging between one section to the next when you've really hacked at it. But because what I ended up cutting from this piece was interesting, you know, Frank Bunker as a character we meet. Okay, so we have other good stuff about Frank Bunker in his life, but it just doesn't really matter here. But we're still talking about Frank Bunker in the piece, you know? So I didn't have to transition or introduce a new character or his wife or anything. You know, it was all sort of there.
00:15:53
Speaker
I'm just removing the second and third paragraphs about him and leaving the first, you know?
00:15:58
Speaker
And what I like about something when I get drafts early enough in the process, I've been getting some of the ones that are heavily cited and footnoted, which gets stripped away in the final product. But I love seeing that because it is just a testament to how much effort and research and organization goes in on the writer's behalf. And in the case of Tyler's piece here with
00:16:24
Speaker
courtroom testimony and other kind of testimonies that help fill in that narrative. You see just how much went into it. So for, you know, for the purposes of fact checking and also just keeping things straight, you know, what can a writer do, you know, modeling what Tyler did to, as they're writing to just keep, keep things straight in the kind of site as you write. Is that something you might recommend?
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think there are writers who feel like, like, oh, I'm just not, you know, I'm not like a footnotes person. That's not how my brain works. And I think like, for like 95% of those writers, I would say, like, do it anyway. Like, you're just wrong. Like, it will improve
00:17:17
Speaker
it will improve the writing, it will improve the process. Because when you're that focused on details, it's all just building this richer world in your head. To be able to know where you got this particular thing and what else was around it is only better for the writing, I think. And you're right, certainly it's easier for
00:17:43
Speaker
fact checkers and the writer during the fact check process to be able to go back and say, that's not how I remember reading that. Let me make sure I'm not missing something else. That's proven helpful countless times.
00:17:59
Speaker
But for me, when I get a piece and I open it up and there, Tyler's piece had like 300 or 400 footnotes or something like that. I just, I go, okay, I'm in good hands. Because if I have a question, especially historical pieces, an editor might have a question like, are we sure he slipped on a piece of lettuce that feels oddly specific? Was he concussed?
00:18:26
Speaker
And if you've got the footnotes there, the writer can go back and say, okay, I know where that came from. I reread everything I have about it and here are the answers. And writers who don't do that, sometimes you'll ask them like the same question and they say, I don't know, let me look into it. And like three days later, they're like,
00:18:45
Speaker
I can't even find where I had that originally. I read it somewhere, but it's gone. What a terrible feeling as a writer because you're going to lose that fact if you can't find where he originally slipped.
Historical Narratives and Challenges
00:19:02
Speaker
Well, so long slipping, you know, like it's out of the picture. So yeah, it's worth getting in the habit of doing it. Even if it's not like, as you actively write, you know, it should be something writers return to regularly to just sort of beef the piece up.
00:19:24
Speaker
Awesome stuff as always. Love getting the editor side of the table. It's what's really unique and cool about these Atavistian pods. Now we're gonna have Tyler Hooper. He's a writer, podcaster, and storyteller living on Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada. He has a master's degree in history, formal training as a journalist, and over at his Medium page, he wrote a little blog post about the process of writing this Titanic of the Pacific piece about the Valencia.
00:19:53
Speaker
and you know what influenced him some of his struggles you know go follow that go read that i'll link up to it in the show notes of course and as luck would have it like i said he talks about a lot of the stuff in that medium post on the in this in this podcast this one right here right now like right now
00:20:15
Speaker
Now I understand you've got a master's degree in history, and this story is something of a historical in nature, so what's the allure for you with going back in history and trying to troll out those kind of narratives?
00:20:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely a huge draw for me when I'm looking for a story is that like nerdiness of history to me that you know, having that background and I love doing research. So honestly, when I find something like this story that there's like thousands and thousands of pages of research,
00:20:49
Speaker
Um, you know, I think a lot of people might find that daunting and I still definitely did and do, but, uh, there was definitely a lure to that alone, like just sifting through pages of the past and reconstructing people who used to be and did amazing things that aren't around to tell it anymore. Like that's something that I really, really enjoyed, especially about this story. And, uh, I mean, he really comes down to like, who doesn't like a good historical shipwreck story? I mean, it's
00:21:15
Speaker
They're everywhere. They're so interesting. And so to find this one that was like, I think a little bit lesser known, but like, really, like really rich in details and like basically had a built in narrative in a lot of ways. Like, yeah, I kind of felt like hitting the jackpot a little bit. So and then that mixed obviously with like the historical context of the time, you know, steamships and what's going on in the West Coast. It just, yeah, I couldn't put it away. There was there was no way.
00:21:42
Speaker
What about the west coast and the Pacific Ocean makes it so harrowing and dangerous for the seafarer? It's a great question. It's really, really rugged. Especially in the time of the Valencia in the early 20th century, there's hardly any life-saving devices. So if something goes wrong at sea, and there's lots that can go wrong, there's huge, especially in the winter,
00:22:08
Speaker
huge waves, you know, really strong currents and tides, really horrible weather. And it's still to this day, like it rains, it's foggy, there's storms, particularly in the winter here in the Pacific Northwest. And so, you know, the wind like any van can blow a ship off course, and push it towards a reef or a rock or the shore. And, you know, if you're looking for refuge,
00:22:29
Speaker
you're not really going to find it, especially, you know, in 1906, when you're on a steamship. So there's not a lot of room for error. And it's really precarious. And I think that's why, you know, the the moniker graveyard of the Pacific for that stretch of ocean Pacific Ocean from like, you know, roughly, I guess, like,
00:22:48
Speaker
Oregon and up to northern Vancouver Island is really apt because there's been hundreds and hundreds of lives lost to shipwrecks and just as many ships. So it really is a perilous part of the globe and still is. I mean, obviously modern navigation equipment and that sort of thing has made it a lot safer. But yeah, I think it's just where it is. It's the geography, the topography. It's really perilous.
00:23:15
Speaker
Is that something that you do when you're reconstructing these things too, where you seek out the maps and then you get a real sort of top-down sense of what these people are dealing with?
00:23:26
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I found a few nautical maps that you know, had depths and, and you know, it's tough. There's not in terms of the actual Valencia and its route, there's not a lot of, you know, primary sources that I could find, you know, maps like the crew would have been using necessarily, but it's pretty easy to piece together like how how difficult it would be. And I mean, all you really have to do is look at all the shipwrecks before the Valencia that were like just horrific, like I'm thinking off the top of my head, like the Pacific and
00:23:54
Speaker
I think it's 1875, or a couple hundred lives are lost, just basically in a very similar area. And what makes that straight, that Wanda Fuca straight that you were talking about, so perilous then especially is that if you miss it, like you have to make a sharp right.
00:24:10
Speaker
turn to get in there just past the Cape, Cape flattery. And if you don't get that, you're going right into the side of Vancouver Island. And it's going to be a rocky, horrible death, much like what happens with the Valencia. So and back then, you know, you're using very primitive ways of navigation, especially if you're lost, you know, like things like dead reckoning, and, you know,
00:24:31
Speaker
charts and maps and things like that and and to some extent probably a little bit intuition you know i think after a while captains and masters would get used to doing that route and know when that turn is and know what to look for yeah if you miss that you're in a lot of trouble cuz you're heading into really rough water and you're heading into a real an area that is so sparse of people or civilization like
00:24:51
Speaker
Even today, the west coast of Vancouver Island is a wonder, but it's also really, really rugged. You don't want to miss that. You don't want to miss that turn. Unfortunately, in the Valencia's case, that's what happens. As we know, it doesn't end well. How did this story get on your radar?
00:25:12
Speaker
So, oh gosh, this is, this is like a long time coming. So back in like, so I moved to the west coast. I'm originally from Ontario, Canada. I moved to the west coast back in 2013, individual journalism program after doing my master of history, master of arts in history. I heard about it in like 2014, 2015.
00:25:31
Speaker
I don't remember from it was like someone I was working with they had like I don't know if they had dove the wreck or had been near the wreck but they mentioned it and it sounded really intriguing and so I hopped online and right away you know there there are there have been things written about it you know it's not like I'm the first person to do it there's been lots of book chapters there's been one local history book written
00:25:49
Speaker
about it so there was a lot of secondary material at first to kind of sift through and the more I read about it the more I was kind of like I feel like there's more here like it was just kind of like an instinct I was like I don't feel like the whole story has been told and so yeah and I just started you know with local archives here in Victoria and on Vancouver Island and then
00:26:09
Speaker
That turned into going to Seattle and finding the physical testimony and it's like 1,200 pages and going through every page and photographing it and just starting to pull a wide net of primary material and secondary material.
00:26:25
Speaker
And I ended up with like, 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of pages. And so, yeah, it was a several year long journey. Like it was, you know, I think it took until like 2018 19 when I seriously started to consider doing something with it in that time previous from when I found out about it in 2014 or 15, like
00:26:44
Speaker
It was just researching and just pulling stuff together and making notes and trying to figure out how to tell this story because I'd never, never had dug into something of his magnitude. Like it was totally new and overwhelming to me. So, um, but yeah, going back to how I, how I found out about it, it was just like a whim. One of those things in your gut tells you like there's more here and I gotta, I gotta dig into this.
00:27:04
Speaker
You mentioned a second ago about it being somewhat overwhelming. How did you start to get your head around the titanic, nautical pun, I guess, amount of information that you were dealing with so that you could start to see the story start to emerge from all those documents?
00:27:24
Speaker
Well, at first, I just stacked it all in a corner of my apartment and didn't look at it. Just ignore it. Yeah, exactly. Occasionally, I would pick up a few sheets and then I would just get overwhelmed. I had other things going on in my life. I still, to this day, have a day job and this is something that I have to do on the side of my desk at night and evenings on the weekends. For a while, I didn't know what to do.
00:27:50
Speaker
I don't remember, I think I just kept pulling me back. There was just this energy and then I'd see that pile and the testimony especially sitting there. I think going to Seattle honestly and actually being in the National Archives there and picking up the testimony and having done that trip.
00:28:06
Speaker
and took in the time like two days to photograph all the pages and then come back and print them all. That's when I was like, hey, this is some sort of commitment. And so really what started was I started getting up early every morning before work and just reading the testimony and making notes. And I did that, I think, for I was trying to think today. It must have been close to four or five months. It was a while. And then I ended up with kind of an abridged
00:28:33
Speaker
version of the testimony. And that was kind of the first step. I think once I went through that, and I found stuff that I hadn't seen published elsewhere, I was like, okay, there's something to build off of here. And this is going to be the key to it, you know, key to not just telling the story, but telling it the way I want to tell it, because I didn't want to do, I wasn't gonna write like a history book, like I didn't, I didn't want to do that. It had to be a narrative, like I wanted to do nonfiction narrative, like it had to have creative and literary elements, or I wasn't going to do it. Like, that was just something that I was like,
00:29:02
Speaker
Otherwise, I'm just going to leave this alone because someone else has already done it. Really, it was getting that testimony and then realizing how rich it was and then going online and going through the newspapers and seeing all the little details about the people involved and the characters and what happened to them and what their lives were like before. That's when I was like, okay, I think I have enough here to do something with it.
00:29:24
Speaker
Yeah, and some of the research that I'm doing on a book, it's like there are certain things that I didn't know happen. I've just been going to newspapers.com just basically going state by state, county by county within states and many of the articles I'm coming across are repetitive, but then occasionally you come across other ones that are kind of like the diamonds in the rough and then over the course of
00:29:47
Speaker
cataloging hundreds and hundreds of articles, you start to see a narrative topography start to form, these tentpole moments. You're like, you didn't see coming, but you're like, they're reported so extensively. You're like, oh, okay, that's a moment in the story. And for you, like, when you were approaching this, what were some of those moments that might have emerged through your research as like a tentpole moment that might have surprised you? You're like, oh, wow, that's great. That's the Jews right there.
00:30:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's a that's a really, really good question. Well, the nice thing to start was that like, story like this rooted in history, usually there's like a chronological element that you can start with, which is really nice. Like, that's a nice way to like, make a basic outline and, you know, sequence of events. So I mean, that had already been done in a lot of the secondary material to some extent pretty accurately. So
00:30:35
Speaker
Some of the work was already done for me, but really it was, there was a few things. I mean, finding out about, this was kind of later on too, but like finding out about like John or Joe Segalos, depending on how you spell it, there's various ways and different sources. One of the Greek crew on board, just finding out about what happened to him after the wreck and how like, you know, he had been awarded all these things for bravery and trying to swim to shore and then how his life like,
00:31:00
Speaker
You know basically became destitute and he ended up dying poor and alone and it was it was like little things like that that I was like oh wow like this is like this reads out of like a Dickens novel or something like it's just so almost unbelievable and then of course like the character Frank bunker who was you know a real person just like
00:31:18
Speaker
him alone. There's something so alluring about him. I don't know what it is. Like, I just think he's such a fascinating person. And so when I started to dig into his life and find out about like his life leading up to getting on on the Valencia and reading about like his wife, like I found the clipping of the day him and his wife got married, and then knowing that she doesn't make it. And I just became so emotionally attached to some of the characters that finding out that new information was like gave me
00:31:42
Speaker
kind of not so much tent poles of the plot but tent poles for characters that I was like they'll be really strong in the story and people it'll resonate with people beyond it being you know obviously a survival disaster narrative and so that's kind of for me what really made me feel like okay I've got something beyond what's been done and these are these are new goals these are new markers or tent poles that I can work
00:32:03
Speaker
over the course of your writing and research. Granted, this takes place more than 100 years ago, but these were real people. Real people passed away. Real people lost wives and children in there.
00:32:19
Speaker
Do you ever come across, and I know this is the case with me, you start thinking, oh, you almost have to think about, oh, I gotta honor these people in a sense, because they were real.
Collaboration and Editing Process
00:32:31
Speaker
They're not just figments of my imagination, and I have to handle those stories, even though it took place a century ago, but you still need to handle it delicately.
00:32:41
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, there's definitely less pressure than when you're writing about people who are still very much alive. You know, it was actually one of the reasons I, you know, as both a journalist and I'm not gonna say historian, but like, someone who, you know, understands the mechanics of history and how to kind of write about it a little bit. It was it's like a little easier because it's like, yeah, well, if I don't,
00:33:02
Speaker
do this writer, if I do get something wrong, the consequences aren't going to be as grave of if the person you know, is alive and reading it. That said, I still held myself to that standard, very much so. You know, and that's why like, I don't think it's going to make it so much into the article. But like, my plan is to eventually do a book about this. And you know, Frank Bunker for as much of a protagonist he is in the story, like, there are some things about him that I found that aren't aren't so great. And I think that's what makes him a really interesting character, you know, that, you know, we're not all
00:33:29
Speaker
perfect, you know, he was very fallible in a lot of ways. And I think so, both before and after the sinking. So I was really conscientious of how I was telling it and what I was saying about those people. And then the thing that really for me, I mean, there's so the one thing with the newspapers calm and having all these clippings and the testimony is that there's so many people that to pick and choose a few is like your main kind of characters.
00:33:53
Speaker
It was tough because I'm like there's so many fascinating people here that I think people should read about but you only have so much space and time and so I'm hoping again like if I can make this into a book project one day I can incorporate as much as possible because there are so many people that did amazing things and some of them survived some of them didn't that yeah I think the public should know about it and know about those feats and it was a I think a seminal moment in West Coast maritime history as well.
00:34:18
Speaker
There is a great amount of tension in the story too. I talked to David Graham about the wager a few weeks ago. There are moments of testimony and logs and stuff where you know certain characters.
00:34:34
Speaker
make it. You know they survive and yet he's still able to cultivate a great amount of attention. And same thing with you, you use a lot of these, a lot of testimony. So you know some of these characters or these people live and yet despite knowing that it still feels very suspenseful and like you wonder what's gonna happen.
00:34:54
Speaker
you know what's gonna happen. So for you what becomes the challenge of keeping tension even though you know like some of these seminal characters like they make it but you're never quite sure as you're reading it you know as as the story unfolds. The initial draft I sent him that was something that I struggled with I mean the he told me you know when this got accepted and you know I was over the moon and then you know we had our preliminary chat he's like just write like
00:35:18
Speaker
He's like, write as many words as you want. He's like, try and keep it around 20,000, but just write. It's easier to trim back and keep the story tighter than it is to expand on it. I think the draft I gave him was like 38,000 words. It was huge. It was basically a nonfiction novella. It was 50 pages. It was funny because for me, when I... I'm going to get to your question. I'm just trying to get some context.
00:35:47
Speaker
found out that Jonah was interested in stuff, I was like, well, I'm just gonna give them everything that I have, because I've put so much into this. And you know, if it all if it doesn't all make it into the article, that's fine, like, there's gonna be hopefully a book one day, like, I can use it then. And that was kind of my, my thought. And so when Jonah came back with his edits, that's when I saw and he had, you know, he basically halved what I had written, like, I think it ended up being even more than half.
00:36:10
Speaker
that he took out and and I actually I was completely fine with it because what I realized after reading my draft and then his draft was like the flow of it was was like riveting like I was like who wrote like I couldn't believe I'd written this like but Jonah had just moved it around in a masterful way
00:36:26
Speaker
that it now kept that tension throughout. It didn't meander and get lost in these historical nuances, which I was infatuated with and done a lot of work to find, but weren't maybe going to necessarily be that interesting to the general public. I think the key to keeping that tension and keeping the reader engaged in the story is keeping especially the second and third act really moving.
00:36:51
Speaker
Like these people are in a harrowing situation. They're doing incredible things under like the worst circumstances. So let's just keep the action going so that the reader just wants to find out what happens next. And in that process, you know, maybe they forget that not all these people are going to survive.
00:37:06
Speaker
and that some of them will and some of them won't. And I think that's kind of the key to lose the reader in the moment of the story rather than them have to think about, oh, well, we know where this goes. Because then you're not really doing a great job of moving the story along. You're kind of just putting filler in there till the end. So I definitely have to give a lot of credit to Jonah because he really showed me how to do that with this piece. And yeah, I think it's like reading so well. So yeah, big props to him on that for sure.
00:37:35
Speaker
And part of what when I usually get a hold of these out of a straps are usually right before they they're usually right before they go to the fact checker. So and so it's annotated pretty well. And so I had the benefit of seeing the Titanic amount of sourcing that that you put into this.
00:37:55
Speaker
at the bottom, some of the citations take up almost half a page in terms of the footnote. And it's always, it's just wild the amount of the attention to detail that you have to put in. If you're gonna write something, you gotta truly make sure that you're saying where you got this information from. So as you're writing and putting that together, are you, piecemeal, go through, you'll write a little scene and you're like, all right, annotate right away so you don't lose it?
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah, very much. So like, I think I annotated in my initial draft. Well, I so I started, I think in the I wrote, my process was a little strange. Like, I again, I'd never done anything like this before. So I was like, very overwhelmed. And I was like, Hey, how am I going to do this? And I was like, Hey, let's just break it down by act. And so I wrote each act sequentially started with the first one, and then made my way to the fourth. And I just kind of wrote them in separate documents. And then yeah, I footnoted basically,
00:38:50
Speaker
I think I started with every sentence, but that was getting like, so ridiculous. And then I so I started to do like, well, if you know, I'm pulling for one paragraph, the same two sources, let's just put them both at the end. And that was kind of how I, I ended up doing it. But yeah, it was an absurd amount of footnotes. But but Jonah did say like, ahead of time, like, for the sake of a fact checker, and you when we get to that point, the more annotation, the better. And so I was happy to oblige. And it was nice not to have to like, stick to a rigid format, like he said, like, don't make it
00:39:19
Speaker
indecipherable, but it doesn't have to be, you know, like APA or Chicago style to the T. So that made it pretty quick and easy to do. And so yeah, for in terms of keeping track of where I got things from. Yeah, I did it as much as I could because otherwise, like, it still happened. Like, we're, you know, during the fact checking process, I'm still like, like late last night, I was like, Where did I get this from and couldn't find it. And it took me, you know, an hour and a half. And I was like, Ah, there it is. You know, so
00:39:43
Speaker
So as much as I tried, I still, I guess, missed some gaps and missed some sources or some areas. But yeah, I just went within when I'm in doubt to cite it again. Like, why not, right? When you're setting down to write and everything, are you much of an outliner and sort of a preplanner to kind of grease the skids ahead of time? So traditionally, no.
00:40:11
Speaker
I've never really before this written anything like over four or five thousand words. And so, you know, I'd always kind of start an outline, but then get bored with it and be like, I just want to write the story. And then so I kind of just jump into it, kind of keep and keep in mind an outline, but, you know, kind of get out a first like, I think my first rough draft.
00:40:28
Speaker
is my outline. That's kind of what I'm learning about myself. Like my first drafts are very rough. Like it's literally just like a dump from my head of like what I want to say, how I want to say it, how I think it should be structured. And so that's kind of how I approached this article, but I did it pretty methodically. So, you know, when I knew I was going to be writing this and it was going to be potentially tens of thousands of words, I was like, okay, well,
00:40:54
Speaker
let's set like word goals. So I think I had it where I was, I had like six months to write it again, because I was doing it in the mornings and the evenings. And so I just kind of mapped it out that I would write X amount of words for each act. And I would basically work on like I mentioned earlier, like one act at a time, and I would do like, I think for the first act, I did like six drafts.
00:41:14
Speaker
Uh, and that was crazy. It did not need to be six drafts, but I really just like spent the first three just like trying to even figure out how to start the story. Like I did like three different versions and I was like, Hey, what works? Like I did, I didn't even did a prologue, which was so silly looking back because I was like, this is an article. Like why would you put a.
00:41:31
Speaker
you know, 700 word prologue, but I was just trying to figure out like, what was going to get me into it. And then once I kind of by the fourth or fifth draft of that first act, I was like, okay, I see how this is going to work. And so that kind of became the process. And then to be honest, like, the second and third act were like, really eat much easier to write, because that's when the action and like, the crux of the narrative is really taking off. And so I was getting
00:41:56
Speaker
really into it and having a lot of fun writing it but that first one was was really tough I mean I was also really overwhelmed and nervous like I was like I don't even know if I can do this like I was like you know I've you know I've pitched it and I've sold it but I'm like how am I gonna pull this off and so like I said that's why I stuck to like a really disciplined
00:42:14
Speaker
methodical approach of like getting up early every morning with a plan of like, Hey, what am I writing today? And then that evening, if I wasn't doing any more writing, it's like, Hey, what are we doing tomorrow morning? And just trying not to think about anything else, like just taking it day by day until I had 1000 words, 2000 words. And then when I would get to the end of an act, I would kind of go back and well, I would actually leave it for a while and start the next one. And then at some point, I would go back to that one. And usually, you know, having now been away from it for a while,
00:42:41
Speaker
give it a read and then give it another edit and that kind of process carried through for for all four acts and I had a schedule and I ended up luckily staying ahead of schedule most for the most part like I never felt like I was too far behind so that was good and once I kind of knew that I took some of the pressure off because I was like okay I'm gonna get this done in time it's just a matter of do it right and you know don't don't rush like you've got the time so that was kind of my
00:43:04
Speaker
I call it like an orderly chaotic process because that's kind of how I operate. It was very much a feeling of process because I again never done anything of this scope.
Writing Discipline and Insights
00:43:14
Speaker
I was like what works for me and it was sticking by that schedule and just thinking about getting those words out per day and that was it and then not worrying about if I was going to have to do another draft. It's like let's just get this material in there because once the facts are in there,
00:43:27
Speaker
It's easy to move things around and rewrite them once they're already sourced and footnoted. Like that's, you know, they're there. It's the getting that historical information from the material into the actual draft that is like kind of like, you know, pulling, you know, you got to pull the weeds, like what needs to go in here, what doesn't. So that was kind of the most excruciating part of each act was kind of that first one where it's like, hey, well, what are the sources and what are the actual facts we need in here? And then how do we spin that into a narrative?
00:43:55
Speaker
Was there a particular moment, be it over the course of your research or over the course of your writing, where you started to feel like that anxiety start to dip a bit as you were sort of synthesizing this?
00:44:11
Speaker
That's a Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't think it ever dipped completely. It was very much a fluid thing. I mean, I was like, I was up to the point where I remember the first mornings of getting up to write, and just being like, staring at the screen and just being so overwhelmed and being like, holy, you know, like, what did I panic? Yeah, complete panic. And so that's why I was like, hey, let's just break this down week by week, you know, and let's just set goals and kind of like, let's just get into it. Because I knew once I got into it,
00:44:42
Speaker
I would kind of like, you know, you find a rhythm and I mean, I have all the research. It's not like I don't have enough to tell the story. It's the problem. It's the opposite problem. It's like, Hey, what am I going to use for this article and what am I going to leave out? And so
00:44:54
Speaker
I would say, I think after I finished the second act, and I was getting into the third, I remember times like, oh, this is because I remember there were times like I'm not very high on my own writing, like I'm pretty hard on myself. And so I remember there were times right in the second act where I was like, that
00:45:11
Speaker
That's a pretty good sequence like that actually reads pretty well. And I remember once that started. Yeah, I was having mornings where I was like really excited like waking up before my alarm to to get to it because I was like, Yeah, I'm really feeling it. But it also came back because then I remember when I finished it, I was like, What is this? Like I just was like, I think Jonah's gonna hate this. Like this is like, this is a manuscript. Like I just remember
00:45:35
Speaker
being so yeah just like going back and forth between like this is pretty good and it's got some good stuff and being like is this just like a crazy person's like telling of a shipwreck like I don't know it's it's it was really really hard to tell so but yeah there were definitely those moments around act two and three that I think I was like
00:45:52
Speaker
Okay, there there's something in here and there's some good stuff. But they were they were few and far between. There's much more panic and just general anxiety than there was like, oh, this is really good. Even now, like just doing the final iterations. Like last night, I was like, I got to get away from this. Like I can't I'm torturing myself by reading this again. So it's yeah, maybe when it's done, but even then I'll find something to wind myself up about it. So yeah.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah, the thinking about the anxiety part of it, too, like even in the even in research, because, you know, here's something that it's not like like you were saying earlier, it's not like it's never been written about before. So you're like, all right, well, how am I gonna differentiate my piece from what's been done in the past? And, you know, and
00:46:43
Speaker
asking or answering those questions like, you know, why is this important? Why tell it now? How am I the best person to write it? And, you know, what new can be said that hasn't already been said? And it's like you're always on the hunt for those either be in an interview or finding something in the archives that elevates it above anything that's been done in the past. And it's like until you get like that really that nugget that you've never seen before and you know, no one else has, it's like,
00:47:07
Speaker
Okay, now I start to feel good like I've got something special here. Otherwise you're just regurgitating stuff and that that leads to its own kind of panic.
00:47:15
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And that was the last thing I wanted to do. I wasn't going to do it. I think that's why it took me so long to to like pitch it or do anything with it. I mean, I did a couple of presentations at local, you know, historical societies or like maritime museums, like, you know, about it just to kind of stay present and on top of it. But I yeah, I went when I was a maybe it'll be a podcast and I was like, well, how the heck would I do that? And it was like it was just like I was really struggling with how to to make it my own and to make that apparent when I when I wrote it. So
00:47:42
Speaker
Yeah, that was something I grappled with for a long time. And then I think once I, you know, I took like two and a half months to write the pitch for the out of this. And so like, I really thought it out. And I was like, Hey, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it my way and with my voice. And so I actually didn't read a lot about it from secondary sources for a while, just so that when I wrote the pitch, it felt like it was coming from me and not from something else. So I think that helped and honestly, like, I don't know if anyone has obsessed
00:48:11
Speaker
this many years in a row and researched it like I have like I just feel like that would be so surprising and I'd love to meet that person but it's like yeah it's it's astounding how many like gigs of research and papers I have in my office like to the point where it's like I know there's still more out there like that's the thing I know I'm not done like there there are definitely other holes that I could look in but
00:48:33
Speaker
I think that was what really kind of motivated me and everyone I talked to said the same thing. They're like, dude, I don't think anyone's obsessed as you, so I don't think you have to worry. So that was kind of, I guess, reassuring and maybe a little worrisome at the same time.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, as part of these Adivis conversations, it's usually a time where I get to dive into how the writer formulates a pitch and makes it seducing enough where, say, we're in Jonah, like, oh, yeah, let's take a flyer on this. And you said it took you two and a half months to really turn the screws on it. So what was the unique challenges to you as you were looking to really hone up a solid pitch that they would say yes to?
00:49:13
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there were a few I mean, one was like, brevity, like, I just feel like the best pitches I've ever written have been short and sweet and to the point. And the problem with this story is that like, there's so much to tell. And I knew like, so when I when I was, I was like, I think was during the pandemic. Yeah, I was in 2020. When I decided like, I'm gonna
00:49:30
Speaker
gonna pitch this thing. And I think I took most of the year to coming mull it over. And then 2021 was when I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And I did it later in the year. And I made a list of publications. And I remember looking at that initial list and being like, none of these publications do features over 4000 words. And I'm like, I'm not again, I was like, I'm not doing that, like, I'm not going to do a retelling of the story that some other people have done in 4000 words, like, I'm going to do this, I'm going to dig into it, and really tell it. And I'd actually written a really shoddy book proposal for this during the pandemic.
00:50:00
Speaker
And I kind of came out of that. I think that's what I did in 2020. And I kind of realized like, oh, I'm not there yet. I don't know what this looks like enough for a book. So then I was like, well, let's do an article. And so after I made that shortlist and realized, well, I'm going to need a publication that can do more than the traditional four, five, 6,000 words even.
00:50:20
Speaker
I was already a huge fan of The Atavist and so I made a new list and they were at the very top and then I had a couple other publications after it and I went, you know, I'll just start with number one, you know, shoot high and then work your way down. And so I really, the pitch itself was easy to write because I knew what parts of the story would be interesting, especially in the Atavist case, having read a bunch of their stories already. But the problem was I just
00:50:43
Speaker
I think I just got in my head about it. Like I pruned it. I think I spent a month writing it and then like literally a month and a half, almost another two months just pruning it. And really what saved me was I finally, I'm very secretive. Like I don't like to show, you know, colleagues or friends like my work until it's done. Like even pitches, like, I don't know. It's just like probably a lot of writers feel like that, but I just don't like to show it. Like I don't much want to keep it to myself. And so I kind of like,
00:51:10
Speaker
I don't know what it was, but I had this old journalism instructor, Gary Ross, who's incredible. And he taught me future writing at the college I went to for journalism. And so I thought, you know what, I'm going to send this to him because I was like, I need I need some feedback from someone. And I figured he would, you know, at least at the very least tell me it's good or bad or, you know, it's way too long. Like, just give me something to go off of. Because at the time, I didn't think it was like,
00:51:34
Speaker
early in 2022. And so I, I sent it to him and he wrote back and he's like, he just had nothing but amazing things to say about it. He's like, this is one of the best pitches I've ever read. And he just said, this is like all this. He's so thought out and like, so that was like when I was like, Oh, okay. Like it's okay to like have this, you know, almost thousand word pitch or whatever it was. Like it was super long, like, cause it's good and everything in it, it needs to be there. So that was the moment that I decided, okay,
00:52:04
Speaker
I'm gonna send it off and I kind of took away those worries about it being too long or maybe meandering and not having enough of a focus and You know sure enough it it worked and yeah on my first shot I landed it so it was it was it was amazing and definitely Oh Gary some thanks for that because I don't think if I had showed it to him I don't know what I would have done I probably would have sat on it for another few months and kept
00:52:26
Speaker
tinkering with it but you know sometimes things are just ready to go and so i took a shot and it worked or how have you developed a you know a system by which you can organize your research so you can best take advantage of of when it's time time to write so you're not in scramble mode
00:52:47
Speaker
That's a good question because I think I definitely for the article that's one thing I learned. My research is so poorly organized. I don't know what it is about me. It's like I start to organize things and then I stop and I started to realize when I was writing this going through my folders on my drive that
00:53:07
Speaker
I had multiple different folders for newspaper clippings, and then I had multiple folders for photos. There were a few folders that were pretty well organized, but honestly, it's a really chaotic system. I had to be using the search function most of the time, because I had read so much of the material so many times.
00:53:27
Speaker
like I generally knew what I was looking for, depending on what I was writing. So I would just use the search function and like nine times out of 10, I would find what I'm looking for, at least the right folder. But like, you know, in my office, there's no filing system. There's just there's piles of papers. I mean, at one point, I did kind of, you know, take all the clippings and hard copies of things that I had and like group them by like, acts or like, you know, this is about this character. And like, I tried to do that a little bit. And it just got so much that
00:53:55
Speaker
And then once you start pulling those things out and using them, like they just get lost in the shuffle and things start to spill over. And yeah, it's something that if if a book happens one day, I'm going to have to write because that was definitely a challenge for me was like trying to even find things sometimes. I was just like, where is this? Like, I know it's somewhere in this stack of crap that I have on my my my desk, but it's just not coming at me right now. So I don't have a good answer for that. Like, I definitely wish I had
00:54:22
Speaker
better system going into it. I think I had enough of one bit especially on my on my hard drive of like digital stuff and things I've taken photos of that it made it easy enough to navigate but it's definitely a lesson I learned doing this like you got to stay organized because it's it also just cuts into the time and energy you spend on these pieces right like if you can't find something you can't move on and get to the next section so yeah definitely a lesson I'm gonna take away from this big time.
00:54:48
Speaker
Have you be organized with your research like don't don't let it founder and sit like file it
00:54:53
Speaker
like make it purposeful and like put something on it so that you can find it later. Yeah. It's almost like if you keep a dream journal or something, you wake up, you're like, wow, what a dream that was. I'll remember it later and write it down. And invariably, you forget the dream. You're like, damn it, I can't remember what that was. It's like the same thing when you're doing research. You're like, I've been cataloging certain names in the newspaper. I'm like, oh, that'll be a good person to keep in touch with.
00:55:19
Speaker
And then if I don't write down, like say 1972, you know, ran for Milwaukee High School in Milwaukee, Oregon, like ran in the two mile in this race or, or whatever. If I don't make those little notes, like I don't remember in the moment, but it, it might be like three weeks before I like get up the courage to call, look up this person and call this person and be like, ah, shit, like who, who are you?
00:55:43
Speaker
Where did you run? Damn it. Now I might have to call this person and be like, tell me who you are, because I don't remember anymore.
00:55:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think like for me not to make excuses, but because like I was doing a lot of the online research late at night, like after work, tired, exhausted, like, I would get it and I would save it all and then I'd go to bed and I just I just didn't, it was almost like I didn't just have the time to properly organize it. And then, you know, I'd move on to researching something else. And so that just be kind of came a trend. Like if I was able to do it all day, I think I definitely would have had like a more clear system and
00:56:17
Speaker
you know, I can't count how many times I put it on my to do list like organized research, organized research and like, I would start and then I would have to actually do more research and then it would just kind of I couldn't keep up with it. And so, you know, again, not making excuses. But I think if I had more time, like I probably could have, you know, done a better job of keeping things in line because it is it is at the best chaotic. Yeah.
00:56:39
Speaker
What were some of the back and forth that you shared with Jonah as you were trying to make this the best possible piece it could be? That dynamic that you guys had?
00:56:51
Speaker
It was, Jonah is like so easy and such a pleasure to work with. Like, I was pretty nervous, like pitching to the out of this because not only was I, you know, a big fan of it, but you know, I've worked with other editors before some good, some that you clash with, and I wasn't really sure what to expect. I didn't know Jonah previously, actually funny story. And I don't know if he remembers this, but he actually, the only other interaction I ever have with Jonah was I pitched an article to outside when he was
00:57:15
Speaker
And he rejected me and it was like one of the nicest reject rejections I've ever gotten and so I knew he was an editor there, but I also knew there was you know, say word and I wasn't sure if there are others so when I Yeah, when when we started going back and forth like he was so reassuring he was you know, he said he's just like just write it He's like me. He's like said put all the good stuff in there and he's like we'll figure out through the editing process like
00:57:39
Speaker
you know, what's the meat? What's the fat? What's the meat for this piece? And how do we, you know, how do we find that? And so even when he again, when even when he came back with, you know, slashing more than half of my original draft, like, you know, he was so nice as it don't take this, you know, like as a bad thing, he's like, it's just we need to keep this tighter. You know, this is like the Hollywood eyes version of this story. That's what we want to do. And I was like, Yeah, absolutely. And so it's been great. I mean, you know, there's we're still, you know, going back and forth and
00:58:06
Speaker
I mean, I guess, you know, we're there's little things that I'm fighting for, you know, like little, little, little things that I want to keep in. And, you know, but it's he's just so nice and understanding. And, you know, even if he decides he's not keeping something like usually his reason for it is much better than why I want to keep it. So I just, you know, acquiesce because
00:58:24
Speaker
Yeah, he's just been such a pleasure to work with. I mean, the dynamic has been easy. And yeah, I don't know how else to describe it. It's just been a pleasure. I'm pleasantly surprised. And honestly, he's taught me a lot about just editing my own stuff, like how to trim back and how to scale back because I tend to just go and starting to see that like, yeah, you got to get to the point sometimes. You can't include every cool historical fact you find. Yeah, yeah.
00:58:53
Speaker
Yeah, and given that prior to this, a lot of your experience with longer features was in that sort of mid-thousands range of four or five thousand. And then, you know, this one draft I have is around eleven, twelve thousand ish. And like you said, it was three times as long before. So as you were looking to really stretch your legs in terms of the endurance of writing a longer story, what were some unique challenges that you faced as you started to stretch beyond what was your previous comfort zone?
00:59:23
Speaker
The challenges of going long, I mean, that's the one thing, and I think this is credit to Jonah, like, because he told me to go for it, he just said, you know, he said, like, I've had writer's hand in 60,000 words. He's like, just, he didn't really seem that concerned about it. It honestly wasn't a huge anxiety for me. Like, I, it kind of became one a little bit, I think, as the piece kind of was morphing. And I was like, I was thinking in my head, you know, 20,000 words for the first draft sounds good. And even if we go with 15 or less, like, that's great. And then once I got over the 25,
00:59:51
Speaker
1000 marker and I was like, I'm not kind of close to finishing this. I was like, I got I started to get worried. But but honestly, there because there's so much research and there's like, I found so much about this. It was a challenge of like, what don't I include? Like, what is going to put Jonah to sleep? And I'm sure I still put in lots that made him just like, what, like, why is this paragraph in here about
01:00:13
Speaker
you know, the steamship evolution and the, you know, 20th and 19th century. But there was just, you know, that's what the challenge really was for me. It's like, what do I include? And honestly, like, I cut a lot of things from that huge draft. And that's, you know, that's what's reassuring to me in the long term that this could be a, you know, a book or a bigger project, because there is still lots left to tell. And I think Jonah has kind of said the same thing to me, like, you know, this is this is actually good, because now you have, you know, a lot already written, and we're only using like, you know, like you said, a third of it. So
01:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't really have that. Like that wasn't an anxiety. That was like the only way it didn't make me anxious was how long it was going to be. It was more, it was more just getting everything in there and not missing something really cool and unique that I'd found. Like that was kind of the thing. It's like, and even now, like when I'm reading it, I mean, some stuff got cut, but, um,
01:00:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's just the way it is. But I was lucky, like I said, if someone had told me, hey, you got 10,000 words, that would have been a whole different story, like complete panic mode on top of panic, like that would have been really, really difficult to do as a first draft. So very lucky that I was able to just kind of go. And then, you know, you know, we obviously pared it back quite a bit.
01:01:17
Speaker
Given this story took place early 1900s, world building becomes pretty important to transport us somewhere.
World-Building in Historical Narratives
01:01:28
Speaker
Where did world building and the idea of really sculpting the time period, where did that fall on a list of priorities for you as you were synthesizing this piece?
01:01:41
Speaker
Yeah, it was a big priority. Like I really wanted this to be immersive. And so with history, you have to make the period like you have to make the reader feel like they're there. And I mean, the master of that in my opinion is Eric Larson, like every book that he's written that I've read, you feel like you're there. And you know, you can speak
01:01:58
Speaker
it's like the senses you know you can feel you can smell you can see things like that's kind of what i what i really tried to do and luckily there's a lot of photos out there so like photos was huge like looking at photos and getting a sense of you know what a place would have looked like then or around then you know was really really helpful um
01:02:15
Speaker
you know, it was it was massive. And then, you know, to like, I got to hike half the West Coast Trail was part of this and see, you know, kind of like, obviously, it's a modern hiking trail now, but I got to see the path and the geography of like, not only where the ship sank, but like, where the bunker party and those people like would have, you know, been trekking on shore. And so that alone, like, was really, really helpful in understanding, you know, what these people would have went through and trying to again,
01:02:41
Speaker
take the take the reader there, you know, and knowing how cold the water is here in the winter and, and all those sorts of things. I mean, I could have done more of it, you know, I really would have loved to have taken a boat on the whole, you know, the whole journey, but that just wasn't wasn't feasible. So yeah, I mean, it was it was something I was very, very conscious of, because I knew I was like, that's only going to add to the immersiveness. And again, going back to that, like keeping the reader in the moment and them not even thinking about, oh, well, we know how this ends already. It's like, no, I want you to be there with
01:03:10
Speaker
with these people as they're trying to survive and maybe not knowing or forgetting, you know, who's going to live and who's going to die and what's going to happen to them. So yeah, it's it was super important. And honestly, you know, maybe being hard on myself, but I could probably going forward, do a little bit better of a job with it. I mean, there's probably a lot of historical details that would provide a nuance that I could have added or kept in. But, you know, there is a fine balance to not get too lost in that time period because you want to keep the story moving because
01:03:40
Speaker
There's a lot of interesting things that were happening in the early 20th century, especially in the west coast of America and Canada. It was something that was very important to me and something I kept in my mind constantly as I was writing.
01:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, and nowadays, especially post pandemic times, I think it might be challenging to actually get your get either get face to face with people or in the case with you like actually actually go out and and hike the landscape and actually
01:04:12
Speaker
put yourself, immerse yourself where these people were and then try to get into that headspace as much as possible. So just as a skill to do more boots on the ground, how important was it for you to really get there to get on the scene?
01:04:34
Speaker
Yeah, it was really important. And you know, and there's like, I think the big part for me is I really wanted to get to where the sinking happened. Because everything else like, you know, I went to Seattle and I didn't make it to San Francisco, maybe for the book, but I didn't make it to San Francisco. But you know, I trolled their archives online and spoke to the people in San Francisco and got all the info from them and lots of photographs. And so I was able to piece together that part pretty good, like the early journey, just from photographs and online information. But I really thought like,
01:05:03
Speaker
for the sinking and the survival aspect, I need to get out there. And so that was, you know, what I did. You know, I did it the like, actually, it was in September of last year, we did it. So it was like close to when I was finishing the the draft, which was it was it was a good time to go because I needed a break needed a little bit of a break from the writing. And yeah, it was, again, it was crazy, because even to this day, the West Coast Trail is like a super challenging hike. And like my partner and I are not
01:05:30
Speaker
We're not the most outdoorsy types of people. Like we do day hikes and stuff, but this was the first time we did like a multi-night, you know, bring all your stuff, no cell phone service kind of hike. And so it was super daunting. And I remember every time I felt nervous, I was like, well, could you imagine being shipwrecked in 1906 with none of the modern amenities you have in your backpack right now? Like you're fine. You're going to be okay. Like I have an emergency device if I break my ankle and need to get evacuated off the trail. Like none of these people had that and none of them were planning to go on a hike or
01:05:59
Speaker
to survive in the woods. They were, you know, thinking they were going to wake up in their, their staterooms and be in Victoria or Seattle. So that was like, it was really good to have that experience and to kind of see what they went through. Because honestly, it's incredible. Like it's the terrain out there is unlike anything I've ever seen. And even on parts of the trail that are maintained
01:06:18
Speaker
to this day are super rough and rugged and dangerous. So it's quite shocking. Like I literally couldn't almost believe that the bunker party survived the way they did like given what they what they had to go through and the condition they did it and it's
01:06:32
Speaker
It gave me a whole new perspective, and I hope some of that comes into the piece as well. I really tried to think about that as I was writing those scenes. This would have been horrible. This would have been your worst, worst nightmare. No one would want to scale an 80-foot cliff on the side of a rocky ocean in the winter while it's raining and there's snow on the ground. It almost doesn't even seem real. I just don't understand what I've been able to survive and do it, but they did it, and that's what's incredible.
01:07:01
Speaker
such a powerful story yeah can you start when you really want to like when i was reading this at least i'm trying to put myself in the kind of a tiny life boat and how turbulent the ocean is and you're getting hit with 40 degree ocean water you're soaked to the bone you might have lost your shoes
01:07:21
Speaker
someone might have died and drowned already and you get to shore and then the the real work begins and you're like oh my god like this is truly hell like it's totally to your to your skill and to your delivery like truly immersive and like you you bring the hell to life
01:07:38
Speaker
Oh, thank you. And, and you know, to like losing like, you know, bunker and Campbell both lose their family, like in the lifeboat. So when they get to shore, their moments earlier, they're with their kids and their wives, and then the boats flip and they're gone forever. Like it's just and then for them to just band together with, you know, eight or nine other guys and to be like,
01:07:59
Speaker
You know, we're going to survive together and for bunker, you know, he becomes the leader and it shows like just kind of what kind of person he was, you know, he took charge despite having this horrible personal tragedy just happened. And I don't know if it was shock, adrenaline, a little bit of both, like not having a choice in that situation, but it's incredible what the human spirit can do. Like when it's put under like
01:08:20
Speaker
extreme and horrible circumstances. Some people really do prevail while others don't. Thank you for saying that because I think it is hell. I think what they went through was absolute hell. I couldn't imagine a worse scenario. It's amazing.
01:08:37
Speaker
Very nice. Well, Tyler, as I bring these conversations down for a landing, as you know, I like to ask the guests for a recommendation for some kind for the listeners out there. And it can be just anything that's exciting you these days that you want to share. So I'd extend that to you. What might you recommend for the listeners out there?
01:08:53
Speaker
This was the hardest question to prep for, by the way, because I was like, what, what do you recommend? So my crazy brain decided, I was like, Hey, you know, we're talking about shipwrecks. We're taught, well, you know, there's, there's a lot of your listeners, I'm assuming who are writers and readers and love narrative nonfiction. So I was like, I'm going to recommend a couple of nautical disaster narrative nonfiction books because I was like, I think it's on cue and, and they are really great books. And I want to preface this by saying neither of these authors need, needs me to do this. They're,
01:09:18
Speaker
complete bestsellers in their incredible books. But they also kind of tie into the piece a little bit and acted as like some inspirations. So the first wreck is a book called Madhouse at the End of the Earth by Julian Sancton. And it's about a it's I won't give a whole synopsis, but basically, it's like a ship called the Belgica Belgium ship that in 1897, an aristocrat wants to go and be the first to reach the reach the magnetic south pole. But the whole crew ends up getting trapped in the ice down there. And it's this
01:09:48
Speaker
horrific maddening story of what happens to these men while they're stuck for a prolonged period of time. And, you know, I think a lot of us have read Shackleton's endurance, and I've read that as well. And honestly, like, to me, this caps it like it's
01:10:01
Speaker
It's the writing is riveting. The story is incredible. And it literally is like one of the most horrific accounts of a shipwreck that I've ever read. And the fact that it's so well researched and written as well just makes it incredible. And it was the book I actually read right before I started writing the piece was going on a trip. It actually just happens that after I
01:10:18
Speaker
sold the pitch to out of this before I was going to start writing I was going on a trip and so I don't know about you but I have to bring like you know a small library with me to have choices of books to read from while I'm relaxing and so I was walking to the bookstore and the title and the cover just drew me in and I was like oh this is perfect and I read it finished it on vacation and it was probably the best book
01:10:39
Speaker
to read before jumping into my own nautical disaster narrative so that's my first wreck and then my my other wreck is uh and again this is probably so well known but dead wake by eric larson the sinking of lucitania uh it's probably one of my favorite books it is certainly my favorite nautical disaster book when i wrote this i was like trying to be eric larson in scenes i was like how do i get these details how do i find out what this person did
01:11:02
Speaker
And I kept it on my desk and on my nightstand throughout the entire process. And whenever I was feeling demoralized or stuck or inspired, I'd pick it up and just read passages sometimes to be inspired, sometimes to be demoralized even more because I'm like, I'm never going to be able to tell history like this. But yeah, so those are my two wrecks. And I thought I would tie in nicely and cap this episode off. So if anyone out there is looking for a really good nautical disaster, check out either of those books, for sure.
01:11:32
Speaker
Well, I think that's great in a sense. I love talking about how books can be like a mentor text as you're synthesizing your main thing. I imagine musicians going into the studio, if they feel stuck, they'll go and pull down a Judas Priest or Black Sabbath album and be like, alright, I'm going to get that.
01:11:53
Speaker
that riff and that backbeat into my bones, and then go back to composing music or noodling around. And same thing can be true with books. If you're writing a long article or something, pull down Best American Sports Writing or something, and like Glenn Stout says, shotgun some leads. How are these guys, how are they getting into it? Or you just mainline some of these passages like you did with Dead Wake. I think that's so important. The answers are kind of there.
01:12:22
Speaker
And you can pull that down for inspiration, not for plagiarism, but for inspiration.
01:12:26
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And that's the thing, like, that's why it's, you know, you go to them when you need them. But you know, again, it's more for inspiration. And, you know, you've mentioned the wager twice, which it's funny, I actually really want to read that book. And I just looked up my local bookstore is sold out of it already. So I'm gonna have to wait. And I was thinking, I'm like, you know, I'm gonna save that book for right before I start to rewrite the book proposals. I'm like, that'll be a perfect book to read. And then to get into doing my own proposal. And so, yeah, it's to me, it's always an inspiration. I don't get
01:12:53
Speaker
any greater it's got to be from you know other authors that's that's where mostly where it comes from and so yeah I mean I could wreck a whole bunch of books and shows shows are great too but you know I thought in this case books would be more appropriate so yeah I'm jealous you've read The Wager though I can't I can't wait to read it
01:13:10
Speaker
Oh, yeah, it's a good one. And it's pretty lean too, you know, it's I mean, it was super impressed by just how how tight it is. It doesn't read too thin, but it doesn't read very long either. It's you know, it's really a real really tight. And yeah, Grant, Grant seems to like know how to do that really, really well. Like even his first book, I was impressed by how much he took all that info. And, you know, it could have been a much longer book, Killers of the Flower Moon. So yeah, yeah, it's it's incredible.
01:13:39
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure we could talk books all day.
Conclusion and Future Episode Preview
01:13:41
Speaker
Oh, yeah. No kidding, man. Well, this is awesome. Well, thanks so much for the work. And I'm so glad we were able to touch base here and talk about how you went about composing, composing this piece on the Valencia. So this was this was awesome, man. Thanks for coming on the show and talking shop. Oh, it was it was an honor. So thank you so much for having me, Brendan. I really appreciate it.
01:14:02
Speaker
Oh, did we do it? Did we do it again? Did we make it to the end? Thanks for listening, CNFers. Thanks to Jonah. Thanks to Tyler. Great stuff. If you dig the show, consider sharing it with your people. You can always tag the show on social at cnfpod on Twitter at Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram. No parting shot this episode. I know you're bummed.
01:14:26
Speaker
But there will be one come Friday when I speak to cartoonist and illustrator Akeem S. Roberts, the mastermind behind the cartoon. That won me the New Yorker caption contest. So that'll be fun. That's a good one. In any case, until then, a few days. That's it. And I'll be right here again. So stay wild. See you in efforts. And if you can't do interview, see.