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FC2O Episode 26 - Jator Pierre
72 Plays4 years ago
Jator Pierre is a highly accomplished Emotional & Lifestyle coach. Here we dive into some deep discussion around health, beliefs, the ego and how to get "unstuck"!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Uncertainty and Control
00:00:00
Speaker
It's also why, in my perspective, why so many of us, inclusive of myself, are control freaks around everything. Because that helps us have this illusion that we're in control. And that helps us feel more certain in the uncertain environment. And for me,
00:00:28
Speaker
I'm really sitting and cultivating and watering this perspective of, wow, how do I continue to notice that my next breath isn't guaranteed? My next heartbeat isn't guaranteed? My tomorrow isn't guaranteed?
00:00:52
Speaker
What is guaranteed as far as I can tell is I'm on this podcast with you at this moment and can I allow the grandeur and the beauty of that moment to really sink in and enjoy it as well as feel all of the feelings and emotions that come with it and
00:01:15
Speaker
to slowly practice getting myself comfortable with the idea that I'm not in control.
Meet Jator Pierre: Emotional Healing Coach
00:02:00
Speaker
Today we have Jator Pierre at your humble service. Jator has been a friend and colleague of mine for many years now as our paths crossed in training at the Czech Institute and then as fellow faculty members too. Jator is a highly skilled, competent and successful coach running his coaching business primarily online at explorethejator.com. As well as his training at the Czech Institute, Jator is a Cressa mentor with the Chris Cressa Institute and has done extensive training with John McMullan at Journeys of Wisdom.
00:02:27
Speaker
Jator's true passion is the exploration of emotional healing, which allows him to help his clients and students find the keys to unlock positive change in their lives. With regular rave reviews for his delivery of the Czech Institute's Holistic Lifestyle Coach programme, Jator is someone who has that rare combination of exceptional skill in sharing both his knowledge and his wisdom from his head and his heart. I'm feeling quite confident that you'll love imbibing the wisdom that spills out during this next FC2O dialogue.
00:02:55
Speaker
Enjoy the show. Here we go.
00:03:11
Speaker
I thought you were the last one of water there. Yeah. Brilliant. I hope you were chewing your water there. Were you chewing it? No, I only swallow my water. Do you? Okay. I typically chew my food, but my water, I either just swallow or spit out on people. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good. Well, fair enough. Fair enough. Each to their own.
00:03:35
Speaker
So Jator, you and I have known each other a few years now. I was actually just thinking earlier today because we met on the CP3, didn't we? So this is the third level, or actually it was the fourth level. It was a trick name. The check level three was actually level four. But anyway, we met there, was it 2012 or 2010? Somewhere in that kind of neck of the woods. It was your first CP3. It was. It was. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:04
Speaker
And I think my favorite part of the whole class outside of, wow, that class is intense. My favorite part is we, you had us go around and introduce ourselves and it got to me and I said, yeah, I'm not here for any of the assessments. I'm here to get to level four.
00:04:28
Speaker
Brilliant. It's a genius response. I couldn't memorize those 270 some odd assessments. Yeah, there's quite a few. It's quite a few. It is an intense course, but quite fun. A lot of camaraderie in that environment. I remember a lot of espresso being drunken. It was really fun and profound at classes. To sit in there and just experience that class.
00:04:55
Speaker
You know, in all honesty, I'd say that class was so amazing to tying so many things together and having a better understanding of the contextual organization of the human being. It's a profound class for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. So what was it that had got you into the checkerboard? Should we go back before your
00:05:22
Speaker
sort of journey through the check training. Where had you started out?
Czech Institute and Jator's Coaching Journey
00:05:27
Speaker
You know, what was it that led you there? Yeah, I started as a personal trainer at 24 Hour Fitness and my fitness manager was a checkie and that was my first introduction to the check work and at the time I wasn't really attracted to it. I was
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, I wasn't attracted to it to be honest and then went to school for kinesiology and nutrition at university and then I was sitting at work reading an article on some personal training website and Paul's articles. I believe they're called you are what you eat. I believe there's three of them popped up and
00:06:15
Speaker
Everything he was talking about was essentially the polar opposite of what I had just learned in university, specifically around nutrition. And I thought that's really interesting. And that started my dive into the Czech Institute. And after that,
00:06:40
Speaker
I was really drawn towards more so of the holistic lifestyle coaching side than I was the practitioner side. I grew up in a kind of a more Eastern philosophy home. So a lot of what Paul was speaking, I'd heard seeds of when I was a kid.
00:07:01
Speaker
spoke to me and was very attractive to me and after going to university and having CSCS and worked at the Raiders and all these high-level certifications and still noticing that there was a lot of
00:07:17
Speaker
Challenges that weren't being addressed even with that level of knowledge The kind of the underpinnings and we look at those six principles the one that Paul At the top there the thoughts That started to really spark my interest greatly right and right and then as I was continuing
00:07:42
Speaker
I'm a person that learns tremendously well by having a mentor. That's probably the easiest way for me to learn. And so I was looking at the Czech faculty and thinking at the time who kind of represented what I wanted to do as a Czech practitioner. And JP was that person.
00:08:04
Speaker
hired JP and through that process became extremely close friends with him and that deep dive in our friendship kind of blossomed what I do today and my work and perspective today and it continues to grow.
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah, and some of your cameo rose rolls in his in his video. Yeah, lots of cameos. Excellent. So you mentioned the six foundation health principles, which I know, obviously, the checkies that are listening will understand what that
Holistic Lifestyle and Health Principles
00:08:41
Speaker
that is. But for those that are unfamiliar, one of the things we teach in the holistic lifestyle coaching is that there's these six foundation health principles and
00:08:50
Speaker
first is to think right but then we've also got to drink right to sleep right to eat right to move right and breathe right yeah that's the six of them and so it's you know we kind of say healthy is super simple and in a way it's disease that's complex and I've always felt that you know when we teach the holistic lifestyle coaching that
00:09:15
Speaker
The simplicity that's inherent within that teaching but also within health itself is almost so simple. It's difficult to believe. But you can do a three-day training course and know so much about how to make someone or facilitate someone towards health. But it takes seven years to go to medical school and learn about disease, right? And I'm not saying that, you know,
00:09:43
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The medical training is obsolete or is unhelpful. It's just that disease is a massive topic. And of course, health is too. But there's a lot of simplicity there. And the challenge then is like, well, what is right? So what is eat right? What is think right?
00:10:06
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drink right, etc. And of course, that's what we we go into in the
Teaching Authenticity and Vulnerability
00:10:10
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training. But obviously, you are you are the past master at teaching all this stuff. So do you want to tell us about about how you how you got into the actual teaching? Because obviously, like we said, when when we met, it was on the check level three. So then you had another level of training to go there and and then go into your your your teaching. So so in the issue, you're working with JP as well, right? Yeah, working with JP and
00:10:36
Speaker
that like I stated kind of sprouted that friendship and then JP at the time he was I think I went to his first class that he ever taught in his own work and I remember sitting in that class and
00:10:57
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I was thinking, I don't know what the hell he's talking about, but I'm fascinated. And it felt a very strong pull to maybe my heart and my mind. And so I continued to go to J.P.'s classes and then
00:11:16
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our friendship started to grow into him coming to San Francisco and doing classes there. And then I thought going through some of his classes, starting to really look at underlying fears and underlying shame and also underlying kind of sense of not enough. And then that really sparked the thought of, wow, what might be
00:11:45
Speaker
one of my greatest challenges, at least in that moment, and one of my greatest challenges was public speaking. And so I thought, well, what's the best way to challenge that? Well, let me see if I can become a Czech faculty member. JP is a friend of mine. He was on Czech faculty and Rob Yang's a friend of mine. He was on Czech faculty and Janet's a friend of mine.
00:12:10
Speaker
So that was all very attractive to be able to work and hang out more often. And going through that process, I remember my first class was in San Francisco.
00:12:29
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I was extremely nervous, at least in part, and the slideshow broke down, the slide projector broke, and the people couldn't get into class for something going on at the front desk. I mean, it was a complete and utter meltdown of every possible thing that could go wrong on my first morning of my first class.
00:12:59
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, luckily enough, I have a lot of what I've learned from the Czech teachings and JP and John and all of those things I kind of use to feel all of those feelings, feel all of those emotions, and actually to turn all of that around into not discount it or to push it away, interestingly,
00:13:24
Speaker
But to use it as food for the class and I literally started that class off speaking about how I was feeling and what emotions were coming up right now in that class as that was happening in it. Something in that moment I think sparked deeply my teaching style and also
00:13:50
Speaker
uh, my sharing style and where I am today as a, as a practitioner, as a, as a teacher, as a human being. And there was a tremendous amount of vulnerability in that moment for me that that class then turned into this amazingly, uh, heartfelt and open and sharing classroom. And I thought, I, I caught that somehow. And I caught, hmm. Yeah. It's like a tool.
00:14:21
Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we just had a quick chat beforehand, but it's something that I've observed of you across the years is that you have this kind of radical honesty, you know, you're totally straight and open about so rather than paying lip service and
00:14:39
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someone says hi, how are you doing, you know, and you saying, oh, yeah, fine, everything's good. You're kind of like, well, you know, actually, today has been a bit shit, you know, or whatever it is, you know, or I'm having a challenge with this. And you know, it's not like you're being negative, you're just being straight. And
00:14:57
Speaker
I think somehow I see a lot of your social media posts and you're really talking about deep stuff that's affected you and I think people respond really well to that, don't they? Certainly that sounds like it's been your experience. Yeah, I appreciate that reflection. It honestly means a lot to me. It is very
00:15:21
Speaker
I'm going to be very honest. Once again, it's very challenging inside of here. When I say inside of here, I mean inside of me. And of course, I have joy and excitement and purpose and pleasure and the moments of huge smiles on my face. And I also have this these other sides that are dark and scary and
00:15:50
Speaker
painful and rage and the whole spectrum of human emotion I find inside of myself. And I think one of the gifts that I have is I've learned over time that keeping those things to myself, whether it's in an intimate relationship,
00:16:16
Speaker
or a family relationship or a friendship. I've learned over time that hiding that feels like a burden. It feels painful. And so being on social media now or being in front of classes or teaching my own classes, what I've learned in those environments is that
00:16:45
Speaker
When we're surrounded by many other human beings, for me, the vulnerability and intimacy can go through the roof if you're willing to open that up. And if you're willing to open that up in front of others, I guess maybe at first maybe one other and then as you become
00:17:11
Speaker
more comfortable with the process in front of many others and then now on a global stage.
Social Media and Genuine Vulnerability
00:17:19
Speaker
literally helps me dissolve the power that those secrets hold inside of me. And when I say the power, I mean the drain that they take on, interestingly, on my physiology, on my energy, on my emotion, on my heart, on my body. And so through noticing the
00:17:44
Speaker
polar opposite experience, the levity that I experience through sharing the aspects of me that I want to hide the most. And I want to be really clear when I'm saying this. I'm not promoting that everyone go do this.
00:18:03
Speaker
For me, this takes time and it took me time to get to that place and you can cause a tremendous amount of disruption in your life. If, you know, you just jump into this full board. I'm not saying that that disruption would be bad. I'm just saying that it's going to be something to handle. And for me and where I am at today,
00:18:32
Speaker
I feel a sense of heaviness if I'm not being as raw and authentic as I can consciously. Of course, there's subconscious agenda that I can't tap into and it's playing in the background. But from a conscious place, as much as I can, to be kind to myself, to be respectful to myself,
00:19:00
Speaker
uh, to be honest with myself and to be upfront with myself, the changes that I've experienced in my life from a relationship level to a physical level to a business. I'm doing, uh, air or bunny quotes or air quotes right now. Yes, bunny ears is what success quotes. Um,
00:19:27
Speaker
It's been profound, Matt. And who I've experienced myself to become as a human being over the years is a 180 degree change from who I was. And I'm not saying that who I was was bad or not good. I'm simply saying that the behaviors that I was kind of implementing at different points in my life were causative of
00:19:56
Speaker
Yeah, lots of pain. And at some point I had to ask myself a question, which was, is this still serving who you think you want to be? Right, right.
00:20:12
Speaker
sometimes those behaviors came back as yeah, and I'm gonna still roll with them. And then at other times, they, they came back with, yeah, it's, it's time to change this. And, and even, you know, our family, often are sometimes our biggest challenges and also our biggest gifts and
00:20:39
Speaker
I was talking with my mom last night and she's seen me go through this whole process and had her experience of me. And she's also had her experience of me becoming a health Jesus and self-righteous and arrogant. And I'm going to be really honest right now as many Czech practitioners do. Yeah. And then last night she said over the last
00:21:05
Speaker
five or six years, I've noticed this tremendous softness that's come over you and how you express things. And yeah, that came from, this thought jumped in last night. From the more proving and defended you need to be, my perspective is the more insecure you actually feel.
00:21:34
Speaker
Right. Yes. And you're hiding that insecurity with I know, and this is the way and also with the desire and need to prove and defend that you are right. And what I've noticed over the years, maybe is maybe my insecurities have lessened due to being extremely vulnerable. And
00:21:56
Speaker
And maybe now when I bump up against a different opinion or a different value or a different way of being or a different thought or a different, as you know, research paper or whatever it is, I'm much more curious about it than I am self-righteous about it. And for me, that's a sign that my insecurities have actually lessened. And that's cool for me.
00:22:26
Speaker
Because there's a quite an interesting balance there, isn't there, between vulnerability and self-esteem? Because you might think that being vulnerable means you have poor self-esteem. But in a way, this is a kind of empowered vulnerability, isn't it? It's actually because you have self-esteem, you're allowing yourself to be vulnerable. So that's quite an interesting kind of, almost a paradox, isn't it? Because when you say the word vulnerable, that person looks vulnerable.
00:22:55
Speaker
you kind of think they look like they could be picked on, they look like they are in danger maybe, or that they're in for a rough time. But this is almost switching it around to empower yourself as an individual. How do you see the dynamics of that kind of unfolding in your experience? Wow, I love that perspective. That's really cool.
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, for me, what I've noticed is that same kind of thought processes for a lot of my clients and a lot of people, even on social media, it's what I notice is, and again, this is my perspective and my experience of it, is that there still is that kind of dynamic
00:23:46
Speaker
hold on vulnerability being weakness. And social media, from my perspective, it shows up amazingly blatantly. And what I mean by that is, so far my experience of most social media, especially people who are more known, a lot of what's shared is
00:24:14
Speaker
is not struggle, is not pain, is not, I mean, as an example, how often do you see a post with maybe a couple and they're legitimately crying or yelling at each other and then there's a post about what we learn through our fight. It's always, you know, we're holding hands and skipping and we're at Disneyland and our life is so perfect and I make six figures and,
00:24:44
Speaker
For me, that is a tremendous mask that many of us wear all the time.
00:24:52
Speaker
Social media is a place where it accentuates There's a there's a fear in my business if if I am the teacher or I am the guru or I am The leader I can't show that my life isn't a struggle or is a struggle. I can't show that Sometimes I worry about
00:25:16
Speaker
You know, the next month, am I going to have the same clients the next month? I can't show that because for me there's a trick that our ego plays on us, which is that is coming from a place of fear and we're afraid that if we expose ourselves, people won't want to work with us or follow us or pay us money.
Authenticity and Personal Growth Challenges
00:25:40
Speaker
And why would I pay this person money if they're just as struggling as I am? And for me, I found so much freedom and my business has exploded from,
00:25:58
Speaker
I think from this place of being authentic with, I do have struggles and there are parts of me that are worried and rageful and ashamed and yeah, I make really good money and that's cool, but there's also a part of me that on the flip side that often wonders, hmm,
00:26:24
Speaker
How do I sustain that? When's it going to end? Is it going to end? And I find a lot of freedom in that expression and also a lot of compassion in that expression. Compassion for myself because, in my opinion,
00:26:46
Speaker
If I was on social media only sharing what I thought was good or positive experiences in my life, for me, I would be discounting parts of myself. I would be discounting other truths. I would be discounting, and I'm gonna, in a very literal way, I would be discounting other parts of Jator that need to be expressed. And I think for me,
00:27:15
Speaker
That discounting of self is one of the biggest blocks to financial gain, to intimate, like real intimate partnership, long lasting career, health and wellness, being in a body that is essentially pain free. I think a lot of our pain and how we experience our pain
00:27:43
Speaker
comes from this incessant need that the ego has to wear masks to feel some sense of control and to protect itself. And I think that's an illusion. And for me going at it the other way now, maybe for the last 12 years or so,
00:28:08
Speaker
I have found a tremendous amount of freedom and change in my life through empowering myself through being vulnerable and finding, you know, from what you said in that piece of vulnerability can look as weakness. Let's just say vulnerability could be in this dark side, this shadowy side.
00:28:33
Speaker
What I've found by going into those things that I deem as dark or shadowy or scary, ah, I've found my greatest light.
00:28:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the things that you said a moment ago, which reminded me of a quote from David White. I'm trying to think how you phrased it, but the quote from David White is that every courageous life is lived out in the grit and dirt of existence.
00:29:06
Speaker
And I think, you know, that's so easy. It was when we were talking about sort of the social media and Facebook kind of, you know, Disney World version that we see. And that is almost a, well, it is a disease in the sense that it creates disease for people, because we look at that and go, oh, well, they're doing well, or they seem to be having a good time.
00:29:29
Speaker
what is important to remember is that even those people that really are doing well and really are by whatever standards that we set as doing well with the rabbit ears, then those courageous or heroic lives that we see are still being lived out in the grits and dirt of existence. But it's just we don't see that because that's buried and kept swept under the rug or whatever.
00:29:55
Speaker
So yeah, that's... Can I say something? Go for it. On that note, I think for me it's important to state that yes, Osho Media is kind of this accentuate expression because it's so big and there's so many people expressing on there and let's say that's the more macro and at the more micro
00:30:21
Speaker
that's happening every day within ourselves in our relationships. The way social media for me is just a blatant picture of this. And it's also happening in our homes. It's happening at school. I mean, we just passed the Christmas and New Year's. And my perspective is one of the reasons that so many people have
00:30:50
Speaker
such struggle around, let's just say Christmas for an example, is not so much the typical stories that we hear, ah, I gotta go to my parents, I gotta get this, okay, those are all parts of it. But one of the underlying stories to why that's so painful for so many people is those environments in which we go into, let's say going to
00:31:18
Speaker
a family member's house that we don't really like and we don't really like our family, et cetera. And we go into those environments, most people shut down that truth. So that time of year could represent for a lot of people, it's time to put on an extra thick mask and hide myself even more and give my ass away even more and not be true to who I really think I am and not be true to my values.
00:31:48
Speaker
man, I'm going to bump against all of these other people's values. And I don't know how to represent myself within those places. So I got to hide even deeper. And this just builds more and more stress. And so you see people interestingly enough from a research perspective, you see, at least in the United States at this time of year, I believe it's Thanksgiving to New Year's Day.
00:32:13
Speaker
As a general theme, most people gain most of their body fat at that time of year. I find that fascinating that it might not just be about people are eating and drinking more. Okay. True.
00:32:28
Speaker
But maybe it's also about people are eating and drinking more because they're in such tremendous pain in the environments in which they find themselves or allow themselves to be in without representing who they really are. And so they have to eat and drink to absorb or to deflect from the amount of pain that they're feeling in those environments instead of expressing it. And that speaks back to this piece for me, which is,
00:32:57
Speaker
Ah, I've had that experience. And over the years now, people that have interestingly remained in my life because I've had to cut off a lot of fat. People who have remained in my life and choose to accept how I show up.
00:33:22
Speaker
and choose to be my friend or a partnership with me or an intimate relationship with me. Those people know that I am going to be upfront. I'm going to be real and I'm going to be myself and be true to what feels like my values in those moments. And I will say when I say cut off the fat, that's not a criticism to people who are not in my life anymore. It's simply that.
00:33:51
Speaker
I couldn't carry that around anymore, not them, but I couldn't carry around my own self burden of being who I think I need to be around these people. Can you imagine the amount of tension and pain that most people are in?
00:34:10
Speaker
walking on eggshells in every environment they step into. It ties in a bit with what I've heard Paul talk about in the past. I know you're using a mix of metaphor and kind of
00:34:30
Speaker
I guess, reality when you're talking about fat and people putting on weight, but also cutting the fat and cutting the sort of challenges. Double entendre, man. Exactly. Exactly. One of those. But Paul talks about this idea of a barrier dysfunction in people that either put on excessive muscle or put on excessive weight.
Body as a Barrier: Internal vs External World
00:34:51
Speaker
And the idea being that you're trying to create a greater barrier between you and the outside world or you and other people.
00:34:58
Speaker
And that's a physical manifestation of an emotional or psychological challenge that people are facing. Can you speak to that at all? Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, I would definitely agree with that being one of the threads. What's so fascinating to me about any of these topics is that
00:35:26
Speaker
If that was a sweater, that's one potential threat of that sweater. And for me, yeah. Putting on body fat as a way to protect myself from what I perceive to be the outside world. Yeah, makes sense.
00:35:44
Speaker
or putting on a tremendous amount of musculature to protect myself from what I perceive to be the outside world. Yeah, that makes sense. What is fascinating to me around a lot of these topics is from a human being's perspective, at least my own, it seems
00:36:09
Speaker
Like we're protecting ourselves from the outside world. Ah, I'm creating a barrier from myself in the outside world by carrying excess body fat or, or lots of muscle or, uh, in, in the Bay area, we say looking hard. So like having that, that mean mug, um, you know, F with me kind of look, um, the fascinating thing for me is.
00:36:33
Speaker
For me, that is an illusion. The illusion is we're protecting ourselves from the outside world. That's kind of one level of it. Let's scrape that a little deeper. What if we're protecting ourselves from the inside world? What if that extra fat or that extra muscle or that mean mug is actually an expression?
00:36:58
Speaker
of us doing the same thing internally and, interestingly, protecting ourselves from ourselves. What if we're creating a barrier from ourselves? And the illusion is it's the outside world I'm trying to protect myself from, but the truth is
00:37:19
Speaker
It's the opposite of vulnerability and intimacy because we're creating a disruption or a block to our inside world and pushing away aspects of self. And that is for me, that is where the route, one of the main routes or main threads of the sweater is, is as far as I'm aware, one of the most frightening
00:37:50
Speaker
and deeply fearful aspects of a human being for most of us is intimacy. And if you break that word down into me, I see. And many of us, from my perspective, walk around with the illusion that I'm protecting myself from the outside world. I don't make money because this and the other.
00:38:17
Speaker
the kind of projection of responsibility to the external environment, not being fully self responsible. And for me being fully self responsible is taking ownership of
00:38:33
Speaker
Hmm. What's going on on the inside is what I project outwardly. And it's also what I manifest on my physical body. It's also how I show up in relationship. It's also how I communicate.
Communication and Self-Dialogue
00:38:51
Speaker
If you look at this, these protective mechanisms, if you look at how you communicate
00:39:01
Speaker
Uh, when you're most negatively, emotionally charged, I'm doing the air quotes again, negative. When you, if you look at your communication in that space with the outside world, significant other, or business partnership or whatever.
00:39:18
Speaker
that expression or how you express or how you criticize or how you negatively judge or how you come to that conversation is exactly the way that you talk to yourself in your head. We just don't notice it. And it's such a powerful way to learn
00:39:44
Speaker
about yourself is to notice how you interact with yourself about what the outside world represents to you. And so back to what Paul is saying, I completely agree. This these barriers that we create from ourselves that show up and look like barriers that we create with the outside world.
00:40:09
Speaker
It's interesting, you know, a lot of the language that we're using, I'm quite familiar with having been in this field for a while, but I remember one of the first times I was exposed to this kind of way of thinking was reading The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. I'm not sure, I'm not sure. I'm not mad either. I just call him E.T.
00:40:38
Speaker
He tells the whole story of when he was in his 20s and was feeling very, very low and suicidal. And he realized, he was thinking to himself, I can't live with myself anymore. And that very phrase made him think, hang on a second, if I can't live with myself, then there's two of me.
00:40:54
Speaker
Easy. Perfect.
00:41:06
Speaker
There's the I that's observing, and then there's the self, right? And I thought, and this was, for me, this was the first sort of exposure that I had to that kind of way of thinking. You've got this almost higher consciousness, or some people might call that the soul consciousness. There's lots of different terminologies for it that I think different traditions and different thinkers have used. But there's that higher observer, and then there's the person that's kind of caught in the show, as it were.
00:41:36
Speaker
And it seems to me that what we're talking here about is, when we're referring to the ego, we're often talking about the person that's caught in a show in the drama of life. And sometimes to be able to step back or to step outside of that can be beneficial. And with the whole sort of border barrier,
00:42:00
Speaker
issue that we've been talking about in terms of potentially putting on weight or putting on muscle mass, that kind of thing. That almost is an exact kind of reflection of the whole notion of the ego and individuation because it is your body or barrier which keeps you distinct and discernible from everything else.
00:42:22
Speaker
So again, you know, just kind of wondering if that resonates with what we're saying and hopefully also if it provides some clarity to listeners that aren't so familiar with this idea of talking about parts of the self or, you know, like a kind of ego self versus perhaps some other level of observation. Yeah, I think first piece is
00:42:50
Speaker
I love aliens. So ET is always welcome. Yes, absolutely. And yeah, I think that on that note, what I started to notice, and this was I was 25 years old, and I started to do my dad's been into
00:43:17
Speaker
Vipassana meditation since I was I think 12 years old and right I went to some Vipassana 10-day sit starting when I was about 24 and well and I Was that one I came home and kind of inserting myself back into this matrix and I
00:43:40
Speaker
I was walking into the closet and I had a walk-in closet and I said, what are we going to wear today? And I completely froze in my tracks. And I thought, what the hell? Who is we?
00:44:05
Speaker
Yeah, you're like Gollum. Yeah. And it was a seed. I didn't really, nothing really sprouted other than the seed was planted. And as I started to learn this, the language of a part of me or parts of self, it really started to open up my awareness to the perspective of
00:44:32
Speaker
In any given moment, in any given decision, I typically am feeling a sense of many different perspectives. I'll give you a very easy example. I have a lot of respect for what you represent to me, and I think that
00:44:57
Speaker
You're somebody that if I had some challenges on some certain topics, you would be someone. There's not many people that I would reach out to. You would be someone that I would reach out to. And so what's fascinating to me about that perspective is.
00:45:13
Speaker
Hi, before we jump on the podcast, a part of me felt a little apprehensive. A part of me felt, will I be enough for Matt's podcast? A part of me felt, will I know enough? A part of me felt fear. A part of me felt a sense of shame. A part of me also felt, on the flip side of that, yeah, you'll get on and knock it out in the park. And the reason why I bring that up is because
00:45:42
Speaker
For me, that happens in shades of gray all the time. So in other podcasts, let's say that I've been on, and let's just say that I don't know the person, or let's just say I don't have them up on a pedestal in some regard or another. Ah, my anxiety level is gonna be much less for those parts of me, or my fear is gonna be much less for those parts of me. So as I start to notice this ebb and flow happening inside of me with many different perspectives,
00:46:12
Speaker
It actually became extremely helpful to my navigation of myself, my navigation of communication, and my understanding of myself. And interestingly, it accentuated the amount of compassion that I had toward myself because
00:46:41
Speaker
For me, from my perspective, what is happening as I start to speak like that or notice that, even if it's in my head or outwardly, it's acknowledging
00:46:55
Speaker
that there's a lot going on inside of me rather than discounting that a lot's going on inside of me. And to the original starting of this kind of topic that we jumped into, it's literally being intimate and vulnerable with myself, which is scary AF. And as I've
00:47:22
Speaker
dove into that more and more and more and more and more and lots of practice, right? Practice is, I think, a beautiful notion that's completely underrated, but practice, real-time experience and practice of doing it, not just learning the theoretical models of it or the teachings or the philosophy, putting it into practice and trying it and experiencing it.
00:47:47
Speaker
there has been this huge sense of relief over my, well, my entire consciousness. And so yes, that language, and I think that perspective, I love how human beings, I love this about human beings, and it's also slightly triggering to me about human beings is,
00:48:17
Speaker
the idea of consciousness or the idea of the ego and ego parts and parts of self and all of that cool stuff. I find it so fascinating how we need to compartmentalize it.
00:48:32
Speaker
And for me, it's another trick. We need to compartmentalize it so we can understand it, so we can believe that we control it and because we understand it, we can control it so we feel less stressed about it because the ego feels stressed when we're not.
Balancing Certainty and Uncertainty
00:48:49
Speaker
And I am such a fan of mystery and I'm such a fan of
00:48:57
Speaker
as you and I have chatted about before of contextual understanding. And when I look at contextual understanding and start to consider, well, I'll never know everything on this topic. That changes the context too. And it changes things from the perspective of this is a knowing into this is a theory.
00:49:18
Speaker
which helps me be more open to always considering new perspective and change in what I'm experiencing and being less defended as a human being and moving into a place of.
00:49:33
Speaker
For me more of a childlike perspective of imagination and curiosity and fascination and yeah, it's why I can I can walk into a room and quotes teach a class and there can be all kinds of challenges that happen in that environment and
00:49:51
Speaker
I don't need to, uh, prove and defend and protect because of that back to this insecurity thing has been lessened. I can hear, acknowledge and understand that that is a different person's experience and maybe.
00:50:12
Speaker
maybe that person's experience is true. And maybe even that truce is actually showing up in their physiology. And if we did objective tests, we could look at right nutrition, right? Vegan versus carnivorous diet. And everyone's argue about it. And so we're all arguing about who's right. And at the end of the day, for me, what's fascinating is back this contextualization of ideas is that if this person
00:50:42
Speaker
is having that experience. Even if that experience goes against all of the research, and then that is actually showing up in their physiology, I don't understand the argument. I just don't understand it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Let's go. For me, there's nothing here to argue about. There's things to be explored together. Yeah. And as you know very well,
00:51:12
Speaker
are we asking the right questions as part of context? And our questions are always based on what we currently know. Yeah. And it's really interesting, you know, one of the, go on, go on, go on. No, no, go, go, go. One of the fields that I've been particularly interested in over the last couple of years is looking at persistent pain and all the sort of pain neuroscience that's coming out. And I think it's a, it's a,
00:51:38
Speaker
really intriguing rabbit hole to dive down. But one of the things I saw just recently was a paper which was talking about how uncertainty is such a big driver for people with persistent pain. And it makes you think, well, okay, so is the answer to that to give them more certainty?
00:52:01
Speaker
which is, from what you were just saying, is probably not the case, it's probably more the case that they need to... I say need to, I have to be careful about my language. It might be more helpful to them to actually become more comfortable with uncertainty.
00:52:18
Speaker
and to have less resistance to uncertainty. And perhaps it's that resistance, the uncertainty that keeps the tension in the system and keeps the sensitization of the nervous system higher because of that sense of vulnerability and threats. Maybe we need to get more comfortable with the idea that we can cope in spite of the vulnerability and in spite of the threat. Well said, I love that.
00:52:45
Speaker
For me, it's dead on. And I think also kind of another kind of side note or branch off of that is maybe for some people when they're in that uncertainty place, maybe kind of like corrective exercise, maybe there is a place to create some more certainty.
00:53:14
Speaker
And then to then move into learning how to navigate uncertainty. Because when we look at the idea of balance and that being a dynamic state, there's different ways to dynamically balance at different moments. So someone like me who experiences, at least for the most part,
00:53:41
Speaker
some comfort with discomfort or I know that my life is unpredictably predictable. I might need a different balance than someone who's already an extreme uncertainty and fear about that. They may need some safety.
00:54:03
Speaker
some bridges to create some certainty to allow the space to create consciousness or awareness or safety around the uncertainty. And we look at the threats or what causes a human being and a tremendous amount of stress as a general theme is the novelty of event, the unpredictability of the event, the threat to body or ego and a sense of loss of control.
00:54:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And those all speak to exactly what you were saying around this uncertainty. And it's also why
00:54:40
Speaker
in my perspective, why so many of us, inclusive of myself, are control freaks around everything because that helps us have this illusion that we're in control and that helps us feel more certain in the uncertain environment. Yes. And for me,
00:55:06
Speaker
I'm really sitting and cultivating and watering this perspective of, wow, how do I continue to notice that my next breath isn't guaranteed? My next heartbeat isn't guaranteed? My tomorrow isn't guaranteed?
00:55:29
Speaker
that what is guaranteed, as far as I can tell, is I'm on this podcast with you at this moment, and can I allow the grandeur and the beauty of that moment to really sink in and enjoy it, as well as feel all of the feelings and emotions that come with it, and to slowly
00:55:56
Speaker
practice to slowly practice getting myself comfortable with the idea that I'm not in control. And so one of the two of the things that I kind of keep in my mind when I wake up
00:56:15
Speaker
I do my best to do this. It often slips my mind until I remember to say it just like I'm remembering it right now. I try to start my day with a thought which is, can I notice what I typically don't notice? And the other thought that seems a little bit easier to kind of keep around in my back pocket is, may the universe surprise me
00:56:45
Speaker
And if I can prepare myself for surprise, ah, yep, I'm going to be surprised today. Interestingly, I'm less surprised when the uncertainty shows up. Yeah, yeah, right. I'm more prepared that there's going to be surprises today. Thank you to Tor for reminding yourself that you're going to have surprises.
00:57:08
Speaker
Yeah, it feels a little bit like when I'm talking about time and time perspective, I always try to explain there's a yin and a yang to time management. And the yang is what we know of time management, which is the idea that you plan your day, it's very sequential linear in the diary, doing this at this time, that at that time. And then there's the surprises, right, which come up and that's the yin, that's the yin of time management, which is that you have to have the fluidity
00:57:35
Speaker
the flexibility to go with the flow, to roll with the punches, be like water, you know, and to adjust to these challenges that come in. I think if you're too yang with your time management, it is setting you up for, you know, heart attack or, you know, massive stress in your life, let's put it that way, you know, high blood pressure and all that. But if you can have the balance of the yin and the yang, then you can both get stuff done, but be flexible and ready to essentially roll with the punches when you need to do that.
00:58:05
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. I think I really love the concept of the yin and yang and I also I think what came up for me while you were sharing kind of in that same housing is You said it earlier the observer The observer aspect of self or what flows through us or higher self, etc and the participant and so for me
00:58:34
Speaker
maybe the observe is the more yin aspect and the participant is the more yang aspect and guess and to allow ourselves both and that feels very important to me as I've gone through my journey is I know that I found this place at a point where I deeply got into this
00:58:59
Speaker
The observer and and I'm not my feelings. I'm not my body. I'm not this I'm not that and I appreciate that perspective and I I get it and what I noticed through it though is I I started to Actually discount the participant of life I started discount my feelings I started to discount my emotions. I started to discount my sensations. I started to discount my body and
00:59:28
Speaker
And for me, I don't think that I would have the awareness of both unless the design team designed me to have it. And I want to be able to cultivate a friendly relationship between my observer as well as between, maybe said in another way, my humanness, my emotion and my emotional spectrum.
00:59:54
Speaker
And rather than saying they're not a part of me, for me, my language has changed to saying they're a part of me. It's not all of me, but it's a part of me. My emotions are a part of my experience. They're a part of me. My body is a part of my experience. It's a part of me. And that feels more... Well, honestly, it feels softer. It feels less young to me. It feels...
01:00:23
Speaker
celebratory of I can observe and watch self and use that perspective often, and I do, and I can also participate and get deeply into, ooh wee, I'm excited right now, or I'm fired up right now, or I'm heated right now, and feel that and enjoy it rather than kind of trying to contain it or not let it be there. If it's true,
01:00:53
Speaker
I like to question everything. If it's true that when we're not in these bodies, we are all one and all in source and there is no relative experience.
Embracing Life's Challenges and Pleasures
01:01:06
Speaker
If that is true,
01:01:08
Speaker
then I am here to have a relative experience, which includes my feelings, my emotions, my sensations. I'm here to do that. To party. Yeah, and to experience and to touch and taste and to communicate and to pleasure and to do it right, you know, do it all. Yeah, which is Osho's whole thrust of things, isn't it, where he's kind of saying that, you know, rather than
01:01:35
Speaker
being here to sit on the mountain type and meditate. You're here to experience the fruits of life and the challenges of life and so on. So get out and get your hands dirty kind of thing. Or if you want to sit on the mountain type and experience that, well, amen to you. That's not what I wanted to do. But what you were saying there, actually, I was thinking about, because you talk about the observer and the participant.
01:02:04
Speaker
When my father was radio, he died from cancer back in 2006. And in that last few days when he was in a hospice and had been in a lot of pain, I went in to visit him. And I remember just hugging him. And he was kind of in and out of consciousness. And I remember saying,
01:02:27
Speaker
and he said, what, what? And I said, the pain that you've been experiencing. And he said, what? And I said, the pain, all this pain. He said, yeah, yeah. And I said, it's a lesson. It's to teach you that you are not your body. The pain is in your body. And you can observe it from a different position. And he was like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. And then he went back to sleep.
01:02:57
Speaker
But I didn't really go in with the intention of saying that. It just kind of came to me. It suddenly struck me as I was hugging him and just with him. And he did die shortly after that. And I do think sometimes those experiences and this idea of the pain teacher is to help people to recognize that they are not just their body and that there's another element to themselves. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah.
01:03:26
Speaker
wholeheartedly agree with that too. When I asked myself this question, where have I learned more in my pleasure or in my pain? In my suffering or in my joy? I've learned more about myself when things perceptually aren't going my way.
01:03:54
Speaker
it brings up so much food for curiosity about self when my ego parts feel some sense of, this isn't going the way that I want it to. The universe or source or great spirit or Jehovah or whatever you wanna call it has a different plan than what I planned.
01:04:22
Speaker
And that brings up so many different experiences at 42 it brings up. Okay, interesting. What is this moment in time that I'm experiencing in this situation?
01:04:40
Speaker
What does it represent to me? Not from a literal perspective. Ah, the literal is, yeah, I'm having this disruption in my life. The more symbolic story of what does this mean to me? What am I feeling? What emotions are here?
01:04:58
Speaker
What is this in quotes pain or suffering here to show me, not literally, but symbolically. And what I've often found for me is that within that symbolism, there is a tremendous amount of tie back or threads
01:05:20
Speaker
back to my past and experiences that I had maybe as a child, maybe as a teenager, different experiences in my life that this moment is the pain of that moment or the suffering of that moment is literally inviting me to my past to help me to acknowledge, to investigate, as well as to eventually
Healing Childhood Emotions
01:05:50
Speaker
heal and when I say heal, heal the perception that I had of the past to help me change the lens in which I look at through today.
01:06:02
Speaker
And that, for some of us that are listening, that might sound a little confusing, so I'll give a slight story maybe that can ground it. In my partnership that I'm in right now, there's been some interesting challenges that have come up around family and breakup and
01:06:31
Speaker
Well, let's just say in some regard, not everything meeting my needs. And it's been challenging. And lucky enough, I have a partner in my life that's willing to chat about everything and be honest and raw and authentic and challenge me, which I also appreciate. And so in one of these situations,
01:06:57
Speaker
Interestingly, what came up for me through this present situation was my experience of my parents' divorce. And all of the feelings that I was having about the current day situation were being accentuated by my experience at that age when I was seven years old.
01:07:21
Speaker
within that space and chatting with her as we're talking about kind of present day challenge, also then talking about, Hey, babe. Yeah. Wow. This is really bringing up a moment for my childhood with my parents being divorced and what that meant to me. And all of the same feelings that I had at that time, I'm noticing them flush into me now. And
01:07:48
Speaker
Hey, can you remind me later today that my seven-year-old really needs my attention? And then literally going back later that day and spending time with seven-year-old Jator and as his father, not my dad that I experienced, not my mom that I experienced.
01:08:10
Speaker
As the 42 year old, uh, who's done a lot of self exploration that's worked on this communication that has become much more compassionate and understanding to go back with that version of me and to have deep heartfelt acknowledgement and conversation with my seven year old. And what's fascinating about, for me, about doing that type of work.
01:08:33
Speaker
or play is that if my feelings about the present situation were a nine out of 10 or a 10 out of 10 in terms of accentuate, after kind of doing this exploration and connecting with those parts, ah, they dropped down to a two or three. They're still there, but they're not pushing me into this very reactive space. They're allowing me to be in this very responsive space with myself
01:09:03
Speaker
with my parts of self and with my partner, which is a beautiful way to create a tremendous amount of intimacy within our relationship.
01:09:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's lovely. Great stuff. I remember Caroline Mays talking about the idea of, you know, conceptually of having sort of energy circuits in your, in your, in your brain, I think was the way she described it. And that, you know, you can have one energy circuit on your parents divorce and one energy circuit on the stress at work. And, you know, but you've only got a finite number of energy circuits. And the idea, again, you know, whether it's literal or metaphorical, that if you can address
01:09:45
Speaker
One of those energy circuits to turn it down a little bit or even potentially to turn it off But what it then does is it gives you more energy and more? capability to focus on the task in hand or or to direct your energies in a in a direction that's going to be I Guess fulfilling and optimal for you Yeah, it sounds a little bit like that. That was what you're experiencing there Yeah, I've noticed that exact experience over the years of
01:10:16
Speaker
there's less siphoning off of energy and there's more direction of energy. I feel I have a sense of a higher ability to direct my energy and with it, with it, less of it being drawn off into other areas. And of course there's, there's more branches to be explored. And each one of these branches branches that I explore,
01:10:47
Speaker
as that is kind of addressed, then more of that water flows down the river that I'm...
01:10:56
Speaker
I'm going down in my little row boat. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Row, row, row your boat. Yeah. That's it. That's it. Dan Siegel's definition of mind, which I know Paul talks about a lot and I talk about the fair bit, is this idea that it's an embodied process which regulates the flow of energy and information.
01:11:20
Speaker
you know, of course, there's a lot of background to that quote and how it was developed. But if you can just take it at face value, it really helps, I think, to understand how when we're holding emotions in the system, or thoughts or ideas, or prejudices, that they are
01:11:38
Speaker
essentially energetic in nature, they have to be because they're a thing, they're something that you hold, that you hold in mind, right? But the mind is, as Dan Siegel says, it's not embodied, sorry, it's not in skull that's embodied, you know, it's not just in the head. It's actually a flow of energy and information that we hold throughout the whole system, which is why, you know, the whole system feels depressed when we're feeling down and the whole system feels anxious when it's not just our heads that feel anxious, or whatever.
01:12:08
Speaker
But again, just tying back into what you're saying. So then if mind really is an embodied process which regulates the flow of energy and information, then when we've got elements of mind, memories, experiences,
01:12:23
Speaker
that perhaps aren't serving us or drawing energy and information away from the task at hand, then of course it's going to be of detriment to that performance or that capability at that moment in time. I think we're living in quite an exciting time really because there's so many different
01:12:44
Speaker
thought leaders from different fields that have very similar concepts with lots of overlap. It's a little bit like with Caroline Messer who I just mentioned, she's talked about the idea of woundology for years. I remember her talking about that in the 90s.
01:13:02
Speaker
The concept there of course is that you get a currency through telling people about your wounds, like I was bereaved, my parents divorced, I got divorced, someone cheated on me, I broke my leg, whatever it is, you hold
01:13:20
Speaker
you hold that story as a kind of woundology and you compare notes with with each other almost to show who is the most wounded you know and I'm quite interested in where again that line is between
Vulnerability vs Sympathy in Sharing Wounds
01:13:36
Speaker
what Caroline Mase is alluding to there as woundology being a kind of negative trait that we can all exhibit at times versus vulnerability because they're very close aren't they? They're very close you know because I could walk into a room and tell you all about the tough things I've been through and you might tell me some tough stuff you've been through and I try and
01:13:59
Speaker
up your game slightly by telling you another thing that I've been involved in or had happened to me. And we have this almost, it's almost like a competition. So are we being vulnerable there or are we being, you know, point scoring? I love it. I mean, there's so much that you just said that I think first piece that came up for me that I think is fun to kind of give voice to is
01:14:29
Speaker
the Dan Siegel quote on the embodiment. And I love how if that's true and this flow through the body and you can kind of easily just ground that into some perspectives that maybe some people could buy into, which is, there's four things that mainly disrupt our hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal thyroid, good and all axis. And one of those main things, one of the four is perception.
01:14:57
Speaker
And if that axis affects every cell in the body, well, then those two tie together beautifully. I mean, that's a perfect tie-in. I think there's the super-casmatic nuclei that it doesn't affect. And I think there's some other group, but outside of those cells, every cell is affected. So that is a beautiful tie-in to kind of pull that right into current research on physiology and how when that system is disruptive, that causes a
01:15:27
Speaker
potential disruption at the cellular level as well as the genetic level as well as the epigenetic expression as well as the internal environment and external environment.
01:15:40
Speaker
etc. So I think that's super cool. And then the Carolyn Miss piece. Yeah, I love that too. It's, of course, I think for me very simply said there is a light and a shadow to everything for me. And
01:16:02
Speaker
can we use our wounding interestingly to create more wounding? Yeah. Can we use our wounding to compete and compare with who's the most wounded? Yeah. And for me, maybe the fine line, which interestingly is going to be held within the person in terms of
01:16:27
Speaker
Their ability to see this because I can't I can project on to them what I see and then maybe that's true. Maybe it's not Is that If they're going into those wounded conversations with this compete and compare, let's just say right For me then underlying that compete and compare there's a level of fear and or shame and
01:16:53
Speaker
And then they're going into it, interestingly, to create more fear and shame to solidify that story even deeper.
01:17:04
Speaker
If you go into those stories with less fear and shame, and maybe if it's driven by another emotion, which is courage, if it's going into that with the courage to look in your shadows, to find the light that you have within you, to slowly change your wounded stories, it's a very different energy. And I think for the most part,
01:17:34
Speaker
As you we become more skilled at observing self as well as observing others I see this in my practice all the time. It's it's what I do for a living so I Can't notice almost immediately The clients who are I call it spinning spinning their wheels of wounded behavior Regurgitating
01:18:03
Speaker
And I'm gonna say this really, this might be very strange. Regurgitating these stories and they're self-hypnotized. If you can do this in person and you watch someone talk about their wounding, many people will literally check out, you know, that kind of glazed look that people get in their eyes, you know, they're not present. For me, that would be a sign
01:18:33
Speaker
that that person is regurgitating the story unconsciously. It's actually their subconscious mind showing up and creating more wounding and driving it deeper. If the person's actually present with self and then using language like, ah, I'm noticing that I'm spinning the same story that I usually spin and I wonder,
01:19:02
Speaker
if this story is still true for me. I wonder, it hasn't changed, but can it change? I haven't changed it, but will I be able to change it? If there's consciousness around it, and you can see this, it's almost
01:19:25
Speaker
I'm going to pick on a group real quick and I'll probably get in trouble for it. So here we go. There as a group of us that really enjoy external processing. We really like to put our thoughts out so we can hear ourselves so that we can kind of figure ourselves out.
01:19:47
Speaker
often what I notice at times with some external processors, it's more overt. This is why I'm using it. The expression is more overt, so it's easier to see. If they are an external processor that gains benefit by sharing their wounding,
01:20:05
Speaker
They are always going to talk about it. And you're always going to hear about it. And it's going to be typically not a minute long story. It's going to be a 12 minute long story where everyone checks out. It's no longer paying attention. Right. And so that for me would be the fine line is.
01:20:26
Speaker
really observing self back to some of this ET stuff. Observing self, are you observing what you're actually saying? If we really talked about how often people are present,
01:20:42
Speaker
I experienced myself to generally be a pretty present guy. And I would put myself in the category of I'm present maybe 0.00001% of the time. And so if you really start to observe yourself and observe when others are speaking, I find it fascinating how most people don't even know what the hell they just said.
01:21:11
Speaker
It's been such a beautiful gift of being a coach because it has grown a skill set within me that is hyper observant of what people's words are, voice inflection, body language, eyes looking, and what they're saying.
01:21:35
Speaker
because I use a lot of reflection in my practice. This is what I heard you say. So I have to be tremendously present with every one of their words and be able to kind of record what they're saying. And it is a question I'll often ask to the person, what did you just hear yourself say?
01:21:57
Speaker
Right. And many people have no clue, and that's my clue to, ah, okay, they're lost in that story, and it's kind of self-hypnosis, and how do we help them break out of that?
01:22:13
Speaker
Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? Super. I mean, this is fascinating. I mean, I love this stuff, man. I mean, this lights me up like a firecracker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing, amazing. So I know you were talking about, you put a post up on Instagram and you were saying about how hidden emotional trauma can impact on genetic expression. Yeah. And you just did touch on that briefly. But have you got anything
01:22:41
Speaker
additional that you wanted to share there. Because I've seen stuff about your thoughts affecting telomere expression and that kind of thing. But I don't have any specific data I can recall off the top of my head. But did you have anything along those lines that you've read about or experienced?
01:22:58
Speaker
Yeah, I have some stuff to share that I've read about, and also I think from a, I'm no geneticist, so let's all go. Yeah, yeah. Me neither. And so, you know, back to this idea that I think is extremely fascinating to me still of perception, and perception being
01:23:24
Speaker
uh, one of the main drivers that affects, uh, directly affects the HPA access. And the other ones being, uh, blood sugar, um, uh, inflammatory processes in the body and circadian rhythm, those being kind of the four main ones. And those each are umbrellas that break down into many other, you know, smaller details. Um, but as those are the big themes and.
01:23:53
Speaker
And so you look at perception and you look at, well, of course perception affects blood sugar. That's, I guess, it's not obvious, but for those of us who understand how the physiology works, that's pretty obvious. And then of course, perceptual effect, circadian rhythm and sleep and how we go to sleep and how we feel about sleep and what our sleeping habits are and our sleeping environments are. Okay. If that makes sense.
01:24:21
Speaker
Okay, all those things stream into when those things are out of balance, potentially we're going to have more low grade chronic inflammation going on in the body and that makes sense, okay? So, you know, we have these kind of global things that are now streaming down into the body. And so then you look at this concept that I really appreciate, which is the exposome and the exposome is a concept which it houses all
01:24:50
Speaker
non-genetic influence since the moment of conception. And that's inclusive of in utero, that's inclusive of your mother's experience, your father's experiences, that's inclusive of the birth experience, birth canal or cesarean, that's inclusive of the hospital that you were birthed in and the bacteria and pioneer bacteria around.
01:25:19
Speaker
and on and on and on and on. And so when you look at that concept of the exposome, often, I think one level kind of deeper than that, that I don't often hear kind of talked about is that, yeah, okay, so we got this exposome and it's all non-genetic influence. So part of non-genetic influence then is also back to that perception, is our perception.
01:25:47
Speaker
Because our perception can then be the driver to blood sugar and inflammation and choice and lifestyle and movement and all of the drivers in which we choose the environments in which we place ourselves.
01:26:04
Speaker
Then we took it one step further and we look at, okay, all the environments we have placed ourselves and now there's a greater understanding that our underlying genetics are driven by the environment and the environment that creates our epigenetic expression.
01:26:20
Speaker
And so our underlying genes then are influenced by the environments in which we place ourselves inclusive of our internal environment, which is our perception of self. And then you look at, okay, well, it's why we can look at it as a theme.
01:26:46
Speaker
Well, Jator, cancer runs in my family. Well, Jator, I got the fat gene and it runs in my family. Well, Jator, okay, cool. When we start to look at this perspective, and as you know, current research is, depending on what researcher read, 10% of disease is, in quotes, genetic and 90% environmental. Okay, so we got that.
01:27:15
Speaker
And then we look at, okay, these kinds of things that show up in people's families and run through generationally.
Family Influence on Genetic Expression
01:27:21
Speaker
Wow. Run through generationally. What else runs through generationally? Mostly is family's values. So if family values typically run through generationally because most people don't individuate,
01:27:44
Speaker
then of course you're going to see the same underlying genetic expression within those environments with the same gene pool. Yeah, yeah, of course. So of course you'll see it where it expresses in one family as obesity. And of course you'll see it in another family where it expresses as thyroid disease. Of course you'll see it in another family that expresses as some autoimmune disease. I mean, that is fascinating and part of that is driven by
01:28:11
Speaker
family values, our perception of them, and our attachment to being who we've always thought we should be within the family structure and the fear about leaving the family structure and individuating because of what that means to the ego. I mean, that is mind-blowing shit.
01:28:30
Speaker
It is, it is, it's really, it's so exciting in some ways as well, isn't it? Because, you know, what you were talking about there reminds me a bit of Mark Wolin's book on Core Languages, called It Didn't Start With You. And he, what he's really talking about is the idea that he's not, he's not so much describing it to values, but he's talking about the language that the family use, which of course, very much ties in ultimately with their values and their perception of life.
01:28:58
Speaker
and how that gets passed down generation to generation and then affects epigenetic expression and so on and so forth. And that there's some pretty strong science to show that and how the epigenetic expression will affect up to four generations down. So there's that side to it.
01:29:19
Speaker
Also the whole family values thing is what I think is very interesting is that the behavioral programming that we get as young children
01:29:32
Speaker
occurs primarily, of course, it occurs throughout life, but we are at our most influenceable in that first seven or so years, six or seven years of life where we are very much in this theta and delta brainwave states a lot of times, we're in this hypnagogic trance essentially.
01:29:49
Speaker
And so, you know, what I find fascinating about that is that first up, if you were to look to Ayurveda and principles of what is it called, trying to think what Madame Blavatsky called her system.
01:30:06
Speaker
essentially looking at the energetics and the idea of learning about different life aspects in seven-year blocks, this idea of septenaries and so the first seven years is really about tribe and family and so on and so forth and so essentially
01:30:24
Speaker
The tribe's mind at that stage of your life is your mind. You don't have a mind of your own yet, right? You're still developing your own mind. And so the tribe's mind is essentially filtering in to become your mind unconsciously largely because you're in this hypnagogic state most of the time.
01:30:41
Speaker
And then of course you start to move beyond that into your second septenary where different elements of consciousness come online and you start to be able to rationalize a little bit and to actually question whether some of the stuff that you were taught.
01:30:57
Speaker
was accurate and to see if it fits with your life experience. But the interesting thing is that, of course, that's only the conscious part of your mind that can do that. And the conscious part of your mind is such a small component of your overall functioning, right? It's like, again, the research says somewhere between eight and one percent of your overall cognitive function is conscious and the rest is unconscious. So you've got somewhere between 92 and 99 percent that is just replaying those patterns that your tribe
01:31:27
Speaker
that engendered into you in those first seven years. So isn't that just also fascinating?
Exploring the Unconscious Mind
01:31:34
Speaker
I mean, Matt, you know, you and I talk often behind the scenes and when we have the conversations, I mean, yeah, this is like a...
01:31:44
Speaker
I'm sexually turned on right now, Matt. He's the greatest. No, but I mean, that's the amount of juice that I have right now. It's so beautiful and it's so cool and it's so fascinating and it's so mysterious.
01:32:04
Speaker
I'm a big fan of James Hollis' work and I think he's a deep cat in my experience and his take on the subconscious and conscious mind is he essentially says that your conscious mind is like an Italian cookie wafer.
01:32:27
Speaker
And your unconscious mind is the entire ocean on the planet. What's it in the perspective, man? And it creates so much exploration then for me. I don't see that as
01:32:48
Speaker
I think maybe a lot of people might experience that as this back to this uncertainty thing. And maybe I've created or worked on getting comfortable with uncertainty that
01:33:00
Speaker
that sounds amazingly fun to me that sounds what you mean i have this whole ocean inside of me to go and explore and to question and that there's no end to it there's no end that there's no line to cross it means that i can learn in
01:33:23
Speaker
every single moment of my life inclusive of these moments right now, or at the grocery store, you know, checking out and that I have opportunity to learn and experience so many things and to find so many hidden threads. I feel like I'm a treasure hunter. And that's become I think many people find hobbies. My hobby is is is exploring all of that because
01:33:54
Speaker
I'm not sailing the seas. Maybe I'm sailing the seas inside of me because I want to be a first person that comes up as like a Christopher Columbus minus going and killing everybody. I want to go and explore my inner world and it's endless.
01:34:18
Speaker
I think back to this idea of genetics and epigenetics and physiology and how that expresses in the body and the embodiment from Dan Siegel. When we don't explore that, I think that's where a lot of our pain is because then a lot of that subconscious programming is
01:34:46
Speaker
unconsciously regurgitating in our lives. And I heard a beautiful quote. I don't remember who said it, but it has been such a poignant reminder to why I explore myself, which is if you want to know your future, all you have to do is look to your past because your past will
01:35:13
Speaker
recycle itself without conscious intervention. So unless you're willing to look into the sea of unconsciousness and start to look at
01:35:24
Speaker
and find and play with what are the drivers of my behavior? Where did I learn this? What does this symbolize to me? Why do I do this? Why am I afraid in these situations? Why do I hide myself around my family? Why do I get triggered around Christmas? Why am I always in emotionally destructive relationships? Why am I always, and why am I always, why am I always, why am I always? If you can start to,
01:35:46
Speaker
search into that. And you're freeing yourself from your own cages that you have co created over the years, all the way back to like you were saying zero to seven. And super curious to consider how much of this is also energetic programming in utero. And absorbing our mom's energy, our father's energy and what they were experiencing at those times and
01:36:16
Speaker
Yeah. There's just so much to be explored. And I think if you, if you, this is, this is interesting for me. If you, if you don't want to explore because you want to remain naive, then you won't. And for me, if you want to explore because you want to find your innocence, then you're free and naivety for me.
01:36:46
Speaker
represents some moment in your life where you were exploring and you got shamed for it. And then you said, nope, I never wanna look again, inclusive of looking inside. And innocence for me is, yeah, I'll keep exploring, yep, and I'll get hurt, and yep, I'll get scared, and I'll keep doing it.
01:37:11
Speaker
But naivety is like, ooh, I'm never going back there again. So one of our greatest blocks that I've seen within my clients and within myself is noticing and questioning and guessing into when did I first feel a sense of fear and or shame about exploring and imagination and curiosity and playfulness.
01:37:39
Speaker
If you can find those keys, those keys will help open you up out of naivety and back into innocence to start to dive into your ocean with courage rather than accentuating more shame and fear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I guess people can, because obviously we're talking in some ways at quite a high level, you know,
01:38:08
Speaker
not giving the detail of how people can actually do this, but this is what you go into in your coaching and also presumably in your courses as well, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So we're talking, you know, we're talking like it's me and you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, there's steps, there's methodology, there's things to be done,
01:38:36
Speaker
But one of the main things I think that's often, I think is shared quite frequently and what I noticed with the rational mind is immediately like what's next is allowing yourself to sit in some of these places, ask some of these questions and see what comes in and allow that to grow your sense of awareness of self.
01:39:05
Speaker
And as you're growing your sense of awareness, the feelings, the emotions and sensations rather than moving through those and looking to what's next. My invitation to more of us is to allow yourself to really sit and feel and really let yourself feel what comes up with your new awareness is what emotions come up
01:39:34
Speaker
what body sensations come up. I mean, if you ask, if we went around you and I on the streets here in Denmark or in the UK and we stop people and say, when's the last time you let yourself just really feel your sadness? I mean, most of them are like, I don't know.
01:39:56
Speaker
Not today, I'm busy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When's the last time you really let yourself feel your anger? And I don't mean like taking it, going out and you know, taking, I mean like just sitting and just allowing yourself to be with it. We're going to get probably less than 1% of the population saying, Oh yeah, I'm deeply into letting myself and allowing myself to feel on a daily basis.
01:40:25
Speaker
And I think that's something that's really missed and is such a big key to our kind of compassionate process to self that is often overlooked. I use myself as an example for getting on this podcast and feeling some sense of
01:40:49
Speaker
uh, anxiousness. And I really, I just sat, I didn't go and meditate. And I just said, you know what, I'm going to sit here and feel what it's like to be anxious, not as a bad or a good thing. I'm like, wow. Wow. And, and close my eyes and let myself feel that. And then I thought, wow, how old do I feel right now? And then all kinds of thoughts and ideas and, and perspectives started to sprout up and.
01:41:19
Speaker
It was really helpful then because then I found this beautiful age of seven and I said, um, before you and I hopped on, I said to my seven year old as Jator, 42 year old Jator today, I said, you're okay. And it's okay that you feel anxious and I'm here to protect you and let's do this together. Yeah. For me, that's.
01:41:48
Speaker
Extremely powerful healing stuff, man. Definitely, definitely. Fantastic stuff. We're getting on for the two hour mark now, so I know we probably can't keep going for too much longer, but you haven't just done your work with JP, and you mentioned John, and I assume you're referring to John McMullen there, is that right?
01:42:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And obviously, you know, you mentioned James Hollis and studying his work. I don't know if that's formal or informal, but but yeah, you know, I agree that that guy is amazing. It's fantastic. But you've also spent a lot of time with Chris Cresser as well. So you've done a lot of training with Chris Cresser, which is a different kind of string to your bow. But I imagine some overlap again, you know,
01:42:32
Speaker
Yeah, so tell us briefly about that, and then I think we might have to do another one. I mean, I love talking with you. It's so much fun. Yeah, likewise, likewise. Yeah, you know, I think, of course, my parents being huge influences, of course. Outside of my parents,
01:42:59
Speaker
you know, my time, of course, the Czech Institute, hugely influential and learned so much and from all the different instructors. And it's not only Paul I've learned from. The Czech Institute kind of, for me, has been really kind of, it's like a
01:43:21
Speaker
It's like a central cog. It's a central cog that helps me kind of place things. And I've always really appreciated that. And that is a huge respect to my time there and working there and what I've learned there. I would say, if I was to sum up one lesson that stuck with me from Paul,
01:43:47
Speaker
is when I was getting ready to teach my first class and we were chatting and he said, he said, just remember Jator that you are the farmer of yourself, that you have the experience of all of this and that's all you need. That has stuck with me so brightly as I'm,
01:44:13
Speaker
Yeah. It's a huge teaching tool to really honor and respect myself and to acknowledge my perspective and my opinion. And it's OK that there's other ones. And to really just, yeah, I farmed myself. And I'm farming myself. And so I wanted to say that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, it's amazing.
01:44:40
Speaker
I'll get to JP last. Chris Kresser. I've known Chris for maybe 12 years. Huge influence on me. I think
01:44:57
Speaker
And my experience of him, I think he's probably the most up-to-date person that I know of on the planet in terms of current research. And I want to be really careful when I say that. A lot of people just say current research, as you know. He's exquisitely well-versed in research methodology. And that's, you know, that's his,
01:45:24
Speaker
his joy as far as I'm aware in part. And something that's always struck me about Chris outside of his, I experienced him to be very humble, at least in our personal interaction.
01:45:41
Speaker
is that because he's on a global stage and really well known and respected, I've heard him at times say I was wrong about something at the time, and I've changed my opinion on it, and here's my new take. For me, anyone that's willing to do that, I will be a student of that perspective to me. That's science.
01:46:11
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure. That's real science for me. I'm not staying stuck that it, you know, we'll be laughing. Well, maybe we'll be dead in 50 years, but in 50, 50 years, we'll be laughing at it in 50 years. You know, the ideas of today will be hilarious. And and that's so humbling and beautiful to me. So I love that. Yeah. And then, yeah, John McMullen and journeys of wisdom.
01:46:43
Speaker
I would say that my experience in John, as a person, as a teacher, I experience him to be one of the most profound people I've ever met in my entire life. That dude is, JP and I call him the wizard. And JP and I, I experienced JP to be exquisitely deep.
01:47:11
Speaker
I toot my own horn. I think I'm a pretty deep cat as well. And JP and I will laugh at times and look at each other and shake our head. But John though. John is a different brand of mustard. Yeah. All of these guys are my friends and he's a good friend. And obviously there's some
01:47:37
Speaker
a metaphoric father there for sure. And I really appreciate him and his perspective. I've learned a tremendous amount from him. And actually, how would you encapsulate what he does to someone who's never heard of him before? He's very intuitive, isn't he? But also very
Influences and Mentorship in Personal Growth
01:47:57
Speaker
well read. And I'm not actually sure what his qualifications are or how he puts himself forward to the world.
01:48:04
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he has all kinds of, he's got a PhD and all kinds of stuff. And what's really fascinating to me about John and Paul is both of their backgrounds have a lot to do with electronics. I mean, they're both in the military. They both had this background in electronics. They're both genius in their own right. I mean,
01:48:31
Speaker
John is exquisitely intuitive like I think all human beings are. I think the difference between John and a lot of people as a general theme is John has over the years taught his ego not to feel shame and fear about how intuitive he is. And so
01:48:57
Speaker
Yeah, his work, really, if I was to sum it up, from my experience, is that most of our pain and struggle is driven by fear and shame, typically hidden fear and shame. And that our journey in part here, the healing journey in part, is to learn how to repair ourselves if I was to sum it up.
01:49:26
Speaker
as concisely as I could. He's a profound cat. And then I think, lastly, JP. And I don't know that anyone else in my life has had as a great influence on me as JP has. I've been friends with JP again for, I think, 12 years now.
01:49:53
Speaker
First as a student, then as a friend, and then now as a brother. And most of that learning wasn't so much in classes, but it was more so in conversations like this. This is what JP and I always chat about.
01:50:12
Speaker
yeah on the deepest of levels as well as do crazy videos and have fun and act like you know complete five-year-olds which is so beautiful yeah yes fantastic and um
01:50:27
Speaker
All of these kind of schools have really, for me, back to this kind of contextual idea, for me it's just given me a very broad context to understand myself and understand human beings, at least to where I'm at now, and of course to keep exploring.
01:50:53
Speaker
You know, the JP and John pieces have been so helpful in kind of tying into my Chris and Paul pieces, which is when I'm in Chris and Paul-ish space, right? Nutrition and movement and change, et cetera. With John and JP's work, it helps me when people get stuck.
01:51:19
Speaker
I have the tools to explore, help them explore why they're stuck. And that has been integral to my work. And in my practice has just completely changed now to, I don't do really anything physical. And yeah, I do some nutrition, et cetera, but most of what I do is,
01:51:44
Speaker
mental and emotional exploration and working with people on what their perceived blocks are. And even the people who come to me, let's say for gut health or maybe some performance stuff, they often come with that perspective and then often leave with
01:52:05
Speaker
Wow, there's some really deep threads to underlying stuff here that are that are probably the drivers of why this is showing up in my life. And I did that and do these other things. Yeah. It's it's so much fun for me. And I'm so
01:52:24
Speaker
I am so humbled and so grateful that I had the opportunity to know Paul personally, to know John personally, to know Chris personally, and to know JP personally. That is a tremendous gift. Yeah, for sure.
01:52:44
Speaker
I'd say lucky, but I believe in destiny. So yeah, I feel like a beautiful part of my destiny. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Excellent.
Podcast's Purpose: Order from Chaos
01:52:55
Speaker
So the podcast is called FC2O, which is from chaos to order. And part of what we're
01:53:02
Speaker
part of the objective is to uh oh do you need to get that or are you good um i'm not gonna get that i don't know who it is okay so part of the objective of the uh the podcast is to help the listeners to find order from the chaos of
01:53:21
Speaker
all the information that's out there, all of these disparate points of view and so on. Because that's part of the challenge, I believe, of this information age, is that you can find so many different opinions and so much divergent research, like you mentioned earlier about, vegan versus carnivore diet, that kind of thing. So have you got any nuggets of wisdom that you might share to help people make
01:53:49
Speaker
sense of that or make order from that chaos. It's so it's so fascinating when you're saying that because there's a part of me that all I want to do is make more chaos. Yeah, no one knows what the fuck they're talking about. So learn to listen.
01:54:10
Speaker
Ah, that's a bit of wisdom right there, isn't it? Nice bit of simplicity. Yeah, I think, you know, to kind of play off that stream of thought is, wow, something that I have learned in my own journey through all of this, and especially around all of this information,
01:54:39
Speaker
is if you're a person that notices and observe yourself, always searching out information, always chasing the next course, always reading the next book. My very simple invitation for many of us
01:55:07
Speaker
is to take what you have right now and allow yourself to fully experience it. That constant search for me is often driven by Pax Hall at the beginning, by the sense of insecurity of not being enough. And one day, if I carry enough information
01:55:36
Speaker
my mommy and my daddy will finally see me. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, you know, as you, as we're both check faculty and many people often ask me to tour, what's your dream? And my answer for the last two or three years has been, uh, to enjoy where I'm at.
01:56:02
Speaker
Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah, that's great. I love that. Love that. And I resonate with much of what you said as well. In fact, I resonate with all of it. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for today. I really enjoyed the chat. And like I said, we could keep going for hours, if not days.
01:56:27
Speaker
So if people want to find out more about your work, I know your business is called WeHLC, so W-E, and then HLC.
Wrap-Up and Introduction to Next Guest
01:56:36
Speaker
But where do they go to to find you? Yeah, so I'm on Instagram, as Explorer was Jator. YouTube, Explorer, Jator. And Facebook, Jator Pierre. And
01:56:55
Speaker
I'd really love to plug my program, which is Restore 60, which is a program diving into your heart, into your mind, into healing your gut and that HPA access with all of what we talked about today with perception and nutrition.
01:57:14
Speaker
and movement and really diving before getting into nutrition, really diving into the background of what's driving what's driving it. And if you've experienced yourself to in quotes fail or have blocks, we dive into that first before we start diving into any information. Yeah. And that's kind of the point of the program. And it's really cool. We start March 16th.
01:57:45
Speaker
And there'll be more on social media about that. Excellent. Yeah. Sounds amazing. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, I'll put those links in the show notes so people can access those directly at mattwarden.com on the show notes section. And yeah, thanks again so much for your insights, your expertise, your vulnerability, and your love. That was beautiful. Hey, Matt. Thank you.
01:58:15
Speaker
It's an honor to be on and I have a lot of appreciation for you and what you bring to the world. And thank you for being my friend and my brother too. Yeah, likewise. All right, take care. We'll speak again soon, no doubt. All right, brother. Cheers to talk. Bye bye.
01:58:34
Speaker
Thank you for joining us again here on FC2O. If you're enjoying it, please share it with anyone you think would like it. If you'd like to find out more about Jator or indeed to explore with Jator, please head over to explorewithjator.com where you can find out more about his online coaching packages and workshops. Next time we have my colleague Karl Todd who is an osteopath and presenter and has worked for well over a decade at the very top level in professional sports, including being the go-to osteopath for the England men's football team.
01:59:04
Speaker
Thanks for joining us again. Hope you enjoyed listening in. See you at the next show.