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FC2O Episode 25 - Clive Standen
39 Plays4 years ago
The first half of this episode covers Clive's time at the British School of Osteopathy and so may be of particular interest to those who know of or went to that school. Beyond that we get into more philosophy and discussion around clinical practice which
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Transcript
Teaching Critical Thinking and Decision-Making
00:00:00
Speaker
When we went through the degree thing, we as a profession, we had to teach critical thinking and you have to say to students, well, you've got to find a way of questioning everything, but at the same time, you've got to hold on to something in order to actually take any kind of move forward. And I think that balancing act is quite hard. And I've seen students and practitioners
00:00:29
Speaker
not be able to keep that balancing act going and to give up and go and do other things because the ability to maintain a number of models of reality in your head while you deal with somebody and base your actions on initial outcomes can be quite challenging for people who are convinced there is a right and a wrong answer to the question.
00:00:58
Speaker
because that's not always the case when you deal with complex clinical realities, you know.
Clive Stanley's Journey in Osteopathy
00:01:33
Speaker
For anyone in the world of osteopathy, Clive Stanley doesn't need any introduction. If he hasn't already influenced your life directly, he will be indirectly through his proactive and prolific role in advancing the status of osteopathy in the UK, New Zealand and all over the world.
00:01:47
Speaker
If you're not in the world of osteopathy, Clive, as you'll hear, has a fascinating life journey taking him through not only osteopathic training and teaching, but into premiership in two of the world's most prodigious osteopathic training facilities. Clive now practices in Auckland in New Zealand and with his wife Anne runs holdmyhand.co.nz as a mentoring service for those in the healing arts who are looking for support on their journey.
00:02:10
Speaker
Sit back and enjoy the story of Clive and how he has helped to reshape the world we live in, especially in terms of how complementary and alternative medicines are perceived within the medical landscape. Enjoy the show. Here we go.
00:02:37
Speaker
Well, Clive Stanton, welcome to FC2O. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you. Good to be here. I'm very excited to have you on because I think I said in one of the early emails where we were setting this up, I don't think our paths have crossed much at all over the years. Obviously, I've been very aware of you because of your prominent role in the world of osteopathy.
00:03:02
Speaker
I missed you at the BSO because I ended up at the CNO as it was then. And then you went to New Zealand just as I was coming back from New Zealand because I spent a year out there. That's right. I think we crossed for an hour or something here, didn't we? Yeah, I think so.
00:03:21
Speaker
Why don't we start out, well actually one thing when I was doing a little bit of background research, I noticed that you went to school in Guildford, so I'm in Leatherhead sorry, so we're not that far away in terms of our origins, so you grew up in sorry? I grew up near Woking yeah, between Woking and Guildford and went to Guildford.
00:03:42
Speaker
and the two people I kind of vaguely knew, Bob Woolis, who sadly passed away a few weeks ago. I was a couple of years behind him, but I was in the same class as Jean-Jacques Bernal, who's
00:04:01
Speaker
the bass player with the Stranglers and we're still in touch. Fantastic. Fantastic. So how many were in your class at that time? It was about 90. The Royal Grammar School was a direct grant school at that stage. It wasn't a public school, would you?
00:04:23
Speaker
you know, a fee paying school, which it became later. And just before I arrived in the early 60s, Terry Jones, the Python had left. So, yeah, it's a very old, very, very old school. I think it goes back to 15, 50 something. And was there anything within your schooling that set you off on the path into osteopathy?
00:04:53
Speaker
Nothing at all. I was at a careers exhibition and I was thinking what am I going to do and bumped into the team from the BSO. I think it was possibly the first time
00:05:15
Speaker
They'd ever taken a stand at the careers exhibition. I think it was the Dirls Court. Right, right. And I remember talking to Colin Dove and David Lindy and maybe Tony Pusey was there as well. I think he was a student at the time.
00:05:30
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. OK. OK. And so obviously for people that don't know, BSO is the British School of Osteopathy. I know a lot of our listeners will know straight away what that is, but just for clarity. So did you go straight from school to the BSO? No, I worked as a. I worked for the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in a pathology laboratory for a while.
00:05:57
Speaker
And then I got a place at the BSO and I decided that the rules in those days, this shows you how long ago it was, was that if you had worked for three years and supported yourself, if you could show that you've been employed for three years, you no longer had to rely on parental contributions
00:06:23
Speaker
to pay your, or support you when you're a student. So I worked for another year. I worked for a charter airline actually in their accounts department up in the city. And because I lived, I was then living in London, I was
00:06:49
Speaker
I came under the Inner London Education Authority and they were one of the local authorities that paid fees for students attending the BSO. It was very patchy. They were called
00:07:05
Speaker
they were called discretionary fees. So some local authorities around the UK would fund students if they were resident in their area and others didn't. And it was just, it was just potluck, really. And I remember going to I remember going to County Hall, just across the river from Palace of Westminster for an interview. And
00:07:31
Speaker
So I got my fees paid and I got a kind of cost of living allowance. It's all really different now, isn't it? Yeah, of course. Yeah, that sounds a good way to do it. Excellent. So what was it that this careers event that really sort of sparked your interest
Challenges in Osteopathic Education and Accreditation
00:07:50
Speaker
in your stuff? Was it just the conversations you had? Yeah, and I think
00:07:57
Speaker
I say often to people now that there are very few professions or careers that involve intellectual rigor and physical skill. There are not many things that you can become involved in that are practical.
00:08:17
Speaker
and involve practical activity, taking practical action, as well as having some mental demands. There are plenty of professions increasingly so where people are, you know, using their brains, but not their hands. And certainly back in the 60s, 70s, there were lots of jobs you could do that were very physical, but were very limited in terms of the amount of
00:08:44
Speaker
mental effort required and that seemed very attractive. I think also many people are drawn to us obviously by the prospect of not being stuck in a hierarchical situation and having worked for the Ministry of Agriculture I knew what it was like to sit at the bottom of a very big mountain or food chain and I thought that really
00:09:14
Speaker
I knew I had worked out by then that that was something that really didn't appeal to me that I was not going to enjoy it if I got stuck in something like that. And the prospect of being able to carve out a way of doing things for myself. I think also in those days, you know, patients would tell us that
00:09:44
Speaker
doctors, GPs would say to them, you know, if you go and see an osteopath, you needn't bother coming here again, you can find yourself another doctor. So I started at the BSO in 1974.
00:10:01
Speaker
So it was still very much a kind of sort of beyond the pale kind of existence So I think I think There's something I talked to Lots of people about in those days in order to be In order to stick at it
00:10:30
Speaker
in the 50s, 60s, 70s, you had to be a little bit bloody minded and maybe slightly rebellious and opinionated. And certainly Phil Lacy used to remind me whenever he got the chance that I had made the observation that osteopaths are bloody minded and difficult.
00:10:57
Speaker
But I think quite a lot of those people had to be that way in order to make things work. So was the training back then, I know that you were involved in transitioning the training to become a degree status training at the BSO in the 90s.
00:11:17
Speaker
But did you have to make any big jumps? I mean, what would you say were the main differences between the kind of training you received in the 70s and how it morphed through into the 90s with the degree recognition? So when I went to the BSO, it was in 16 Buckingham Gate, which is, I don't know, it's opposite the location of the Wellington Barracks, although
00:11:47
Speaker
Back then the Wellington Barracks were still a big kind of hole in the ground after World War Two. So the new barracks hadn't been built and we were a few doors along from Buckingham Palace and it was a small building that the Osteopathic Education Foundation had financed the BSO buying. I think that was in the 50s or 60s anyway.
00:12:15
Speaker
So little John was the first principal, you know, he started it, then it was Weber. Yeah. And then it was Colin Dove. And Colin was the principal when I was there. Right, right. And I think in the 70s, just about the time that I was a student, Colin, particularly and maybe the management, but particularly Colin became aware that osteopathy was never going to be taken seriously.
00:12:44
Speaker
because there were a couple of small colleges, three, you know, there was the BSO, the ESO had really just started. Right, right. Around then I'd moved down to Maidstone and BCNO was up in Hampstead. But essentially his analysis was that
00:13:06
Speaker
all that was happening was that they were training enough people to replace the people who were leaving the profession at the end of their careers through retirement or death. And so he identified that the change of scale was needed if osteopathy was ever going to be taken seriously and that
00:13:34
Speaker
A way to do that was, and to achieve political recognition, was to stop producing graduates with self-approved qualifications. So each of the colleges produced people with a DO, but each of the DOs was approved by the board of the college as being good enough, so there was no external
00:14:01
Speaker
you know and the fact you know move and let's leave aside the fact that because they chose to call it a diploma of osteopathy that caused ongoing difficulties with the US profession yes yeah because it seemed to be copying the doctor of osteopathy in the states yeah anyway so Colin set about they persuaded the board to
00:14:28
Speaker
He stepped down as principal after about 10 years, I think it was, maybe more. They had increased the lengths of the course at the BSO from three years to four years. Principally or primarily under the
00:14:54
Speaker
direction and management of Colin and of Audrey Smith yes and so 74 June 74 was the graduation of the first group of four four-year students that was people like Tony Pusey I forget who else was in that year
00:15:20
Speaker
And they kind of realised fairly soon that that was not going to produce a magical change in the nature of graduates. It improved the teaching programme curriculum. But what they wanted was to
00:15:39
Speaker
to get objective external accreditation by somebody. And so Collins stepped down, they brought in a new principal who was the first non-osteopath to be principal of the BSO, a man called Stanley Bradford, who'd been involved in various further and higher education enterprises. Stanley was quite entrepreneurial and he persuaded the board
00:16:09
Speaker
highly controversially to sell the freehold of Buckingham Gate and take on a much bigger building.
00:16:21
Speaker
and so and at the same time they dramatically increased the size of intakes so they went from taking 20 to 25 a year to taking about 100 a year. And was there was the demand for that? Was that any sort of challenge getting that number of students in? No there seemed to be no challenge getting the students in but what
00:16:49
Speaker
What happened was, and I'm pretty sure that 1979 was the first big intake, September 1979. They had not at that stage identified a large building in which to relocate the BSO.
00:17:10
Speaker
The first intake did all their theory classes at Central Methodist Hall, Westminster, just off Parliament Square. Then they went to Buckingham Gate on a Monday or a Wednesday evening, I think it was, and were split into lots of small groups.
00:17:31
Speaker
and did their practical osteopathic technique and I was one of the people who helped teaching osteopathic technique and they would be in a big group in the largest classroom the BSO had and Audrey Smith would teach
00:17:51
Speaker
a large group, then they'd be split into small groups and spread around the building, practicing. And it was a pretty high risk strategy by Stanley and the then board of directors. And to cut a really long...
00:18:10
Speaker
Well, to cut a long story short, they ended up moving to Suffolk Street, the building in Suffolk Street, on the corner of the Haymarket. And they started that. We moved in there in sort of the summer of 1980. And it was both a blessing and a curse, that building.
00:18:39
Speaker
I don't know whether you ever visited it. Oh, yeah. I've been there quite a number of times actually. Yeah.
00:18:47
Speaker
It was, for people listening who didn't go, it was a former combined universities club. So it was very much a York stone exterior. And the first two floors were, or the ground in the first two floors were large rooms that had been club rooms for gentlemen. And then the top two floors was a warren of
00:19:19
Speaker
small rooms that had been accommodation for gentlemen wishing to stay over in London and the BSO took this on on a long lease from the Crown Estates and it was a blessing in that it had a combination of large rooms that could be used for teaching
00:19:42
Speaker
And it had small rooms that meant a very large clinic could be incorporated into the site. So the clinic was spread over the second and third floors, or first, second and third floors.
00:20:00
Speaker
and it had a whole load of treatment rooms and then right on the top floor there were a few offices and a flat for the caretaker. And it kind of accommodated what the BSO was trying to do fairly well.
00:20:22
Speaker
And when people were asked, you know, it provided instant status for an osteopathic institution, people would come to visit and would, you know, walk around the corner or get out of a cab and go, gosh, these guys are serious. And so it conveyed this sense of permanence and establishment. Yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
Stanley set about getting a degree course approved and I think he first went to the Polytechnic of Central London, sorry Westminster Poly, Martin Collins will know much more about this than I do. And the first attempt to get the course
00:21:10
Speaker
accredited as a degree had taken place I think while they were still at Buckingham Gate and it had received extremely short shrift you know the conversation was over in minutes or hours. Then we got to Suffolk Street and they tried again and it lasted a bit longer but the kind of
00:21:38
Speaker
It's the only way I can put it, the lack of educational maturity.
00:21:44
Speaker
kind of could not be compensated for. Let's put it that way. Yeah. So we were a profession that we're used to saying, this is what I do. You do it. Yeah, that's fine. So it was very much an apprenticeship model. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And a teaching of what to do in situations. And so that took us through the 80s, or into the 80s. And
00:22:15
Speaker
let's see we moved there in 1980 about 1983 yeah i think stan and i have to choose my words which people who know me will remember that i like to do um it became clear that stanley's strategy had um kind of been based on achieving degree recognition
00:22:41
Speaker
And the financial and academic progress of the school was, was a bit precarious. So Stanley left. Yeah. And one of the directors was a guy called Stuart Humphrey, who worked up in Harpenden. Very old school osteopath, you know, very nice man. Typical early osteopathic practice in a red brick house in a
00:23:11
Speaker
a nice suburb of a nice town in southern England. And one of his patients was Norman Lindop, who was then the director of Hatfield Polytechnic, and had chaired the Data Protection Report Committee, which produced the Lindop Report, which was Britain's first attempt at data protection. And he'd also chaired the
00:23:40
Speaker
the committee that ran Allied Health, so the committee that looked after physiotherapy and other professions. So Norman was a widely experienced person. And anyway, when he retired from Hatfield Poly, he came to run the BSO. And he introduced a lot more kind of
00:24:05
Speaker
more academic credibility and in an unfortunate chain of events, the strategic decision was taken to approach the Council for National Academic Awards, the CNAA, to approve the BSO's degree program.
00:24:27
Speaker
And by then I had been the head of the technique department. I took over or I was pointed to do that when Laurie Hartman stepped down. Yeah. And then I then I'd run the clinic at the BSO. And we then we started to get involved in dealing with the CNAA. But about that time the Minister for Education
00:24:54
Speaker
decided that he wanted a report on whether the CNAA had a long-term future. So he appointed a small but high-powered committee to investigate the CNAA. So I was leading the team that was writing this degree program with Derek Edwards who was
00:25:19
Speaker
and we became the two vice principals. He was the academic and I was professional vice principal. And about the time we got heavily engaged with the CNAA, this committee which Norman Lindop had chaired recommended that CNAA be abolished. So I found myself
00:25:41
Speaker
meeting delegations from the CNAA with Norman Lindop sitting next to me. And all these guys from the CNAA glaring at Norman. Because he was instrumental in eventually putting them out of a job. So we went through that and we had our degree approved by the CNAA. In what I later learned was a typical
00:26:10
Speaker
institutional visit, you know, they sent a team of people. And their team was led by Caroline Cox, Baroness Caroline Cox, who was one of Margaret Thatcher's darlings, who was this formidable, staunchly Christian peer who'd worked as a social work and sociology lecturer at the Polytechnic of North London and spoken out about the
00:26:39
Speaker
what she saw as the communist and Trotskyist cabal that was kind of holding North London Polly to account. And so she turned up with this team of people to put our degree program through the ringer, which they did over a day and a half, I think.
00:27:06
Speaker
And we got our degree approved. And that was, it was an eye opening experience for me. Norman Lindauk was an extremely interesting guy to work for. And we dealt with some really interesting people at sort of different polytechnics and universities. And so over that period from the kind of mid 70s to
00:27:33
Speaker
the early 90s. Yeah, there were a lot of changes. Yeah, yeah, right, right. A lot of changes. And it was a huge bearing in mind, one of the problems that we had to confront and address for the CNAA was that, as was traditional, the vast majority of faculty members taught for a day or maybe two days a week.
00:28:01
Speaker
And so they were very concerned about the collective nature of education and where institutional wisdom
00:28:10
Speaker
resided and how that worked. And could you really provide good academic and pastoral care for 100 students a year? Yes. If you were, you know, if the key people in your team were only there for 12 hours a week or 18 hours a week or whatever. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. I guess that's always been the challenge with osteopathy. Very much so. Yeah. Because you want people who
00:28:35
Speaker
You know, and our defense was, but these people are out in the workplace doing this every week. Exactly. Yeah. And therefore they're able to bring real world and real time experience to talk to students rather than employing a team of people who did it in the past, but don't do it now. Yeah. So so then what? And that that.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, go on. Well, I was gonna say, are we at the point now where you're about to sort of take over leadership of the BSO, your principal, as of 1990, weren't you? Yeah, Norman stepped down and I...
Leadership and Financial Management at BSO
00:29:11
Speaker
the board advertised the position and after a lot of discussion I applied. And it was very interesting to be, there was some feeling amongst a significant number of people that they wanted an osteopath to run the BSO again, for it not to be someone who was an entrepreneur or a member of the establishment as an administrator.
00:29:40
Speaker
And was that really because you'd seen issues and challenges with these people from the outside coming in, perhaps not understanding the profession as intimately as someone who's actually in the profession would do? I think what subsequently became clear to me and is still sometimes the case is that in places
00:30:10
Speaker
like the BSO, as in hospitals and education institutions, it's easy for attention to develop between the professional people and the managerial people. So in terms of meeting objectives and delivering financial targets,
00:30:40
Speaker
quite a lot of literature about who has the last say. And it's an ongoing thing, if you like, in public discourse today that should a treatment be available? Should the health professional have the last word on yes or no? Or should the person who is the managerial person have the last word? And so whichever of those people
00:31:11
Speaker
it appears to have the last word there will be connotations attached to it and so it's not unusual in large hospitals or universities for the professional group to feel that somebody in a suit quote-unquote has the last word and they don't really understand the issues that the professionals
00:31:39
Speaker
have to cope with. Yes. Yes. Because you have been in love with the hospital, haven't you? Yeah. Later on, after I left the BSO, I was appointed as a non-executive director of the trust hospital in the town where I lived. That was a really interesting experience. Sitting as a non-exec with doctors and managers and being on committees.
00:32:08
Speaker
I was on the Complaints Committee and the Capital Expenditure Committee, so looking at arguments and making final decisions. And so getting into those kind of situations, you understand that there's no perfect answer. If a health professional, for instance, becomes a senior manager,
00:32:35
Speaker
It's not unusual for the health professionals to feel that when they take a decision that the health professionals would not have taken
00:32:45
Speaker
the person concerned has gone over to the other side, the dark side and vice versa. I remember having a conversation with Ian Drysdale actually at one point because one of the things that I picked up even as a student was it's when you're principal, it's almost like you're the referee of a football match or something and you can't please all the people all the time. You're always going to be upsetting someone. It's like whatever decision you make, it's going to be annoying someone.
00:33:16
Speaker
That's absolutely right and Norman Lindop, Norman and I had some conversations about those sorts of things and also once you're the principal and I know Ian and I talked about this, you can be in the pub with five other people that you've known for a long time and you may think you're just one of the people chatting and enjoying a beer but they never forget that you're the principal
00:33:47
Speaker
You can walk into a room and people stop talking, which they wouldn't have done.
00:33:56
Speaker
I think it kind of goes with the sitting in the chair or whatever. Do you want to say? Yeah, I remember listening to an audio. There's a guy called David White too I like to listen to. He's actually a corporate poet of all things, which is very unusual in this day and age. But he goes into big corporations and uses poetry to help them understand the underlying dynamics around what might be going on in the workplace. And so he uses his own poetry, but also Shakespeare and various other sort of classic poets. But he tells a story about how
00:34:26
Speaker
You know, some young hotshot was being promoted to the board and one of the wise old men on the board said to him, you know, this is a great day, but it's also the last day that your colleagues will tell you the truth. That's, yeah, there's a lot in that. And, you know, we, at the BSO, we went through
00:34:54
Speaker
problems. One of the issues that I had to deal with was that when we had our degree approved, shortly after that the undergraduate funding rules changed. And there was a lot of
00:35:19
Speaker
acrimony about the fact that people were suddenly finding themselves faced with very high costs to study and recruiting people became difficult and there was a number of, I recall having telephone conversations with a number of angry parents who somehow felt that it was
00:35:49
Speaker
it was the BSO's fault and therefore my fault that this was happening and that there would be something that I could do. And I actually had, I remember being at a thing at the CNAA in Grey's Inn Road, which Kenneth Clark was the guest and the speaker and he did his little chat and he was Secretary of State for Education and I managed to,
00:36:16
Speaker
I managed to kind of work my way towards him while he was eating a sausage roll or a mini quiche or whatever it was. And we all had badges on, but everybody knew who he was. And as I moved towards him, he clocked my badge with my name and institution on it, and I could see this, oh Christ, look past across his face.
00:36:44
Speaker
And I said to him, you know, funding, you know, and he said, well, here's the thing, you know, there are two lists, there's a list of institutions that are funded and there's a list of institutions that are not.
00:36:56
Speaker
and this one is in this drawer of my desk, and this list is in this other drawer, and you're on this list over here. How do we get across to the other list? Well, you don't. And he said, you know, that's just how it is. It's just those are the two groups of institutions. And so it got, and we kind of worked our way
00:37:22
Speaker
round it and through it. But that was a problem. And then we had big cash flow issues. And we found that there were problems with VAT about should we be charging VAT to our patients at the clinic. And because the BSO clinic is large, that involved a lot of people and a lot of transactions. So it was a very large sum of money.
00:37:51
Speaker
There are other things, you know, which your listeners probably won't be interested in. Although some of them will have experienced this is when is someone who works in your business self-employed and when are they employed? And the inland revenue saying, well, we have concluded that all those people who come and teach part-time,
00:38:17
Speaker
our employees and that you should have been deducting PAY and you owe us this much money. And the number in the letter is an eye watering number. And then it shows on your accounts as a liability and it makes life even more difficult. And again, as we're speaking,
00:38:44
Speaker
interest rates from banks are in low single digits or even below zero. But back in 1990, that was not the case. And because the BSO was running an overdraft for a significant amount of the time, we were paying as much to the bank in interest as I was paying to people to teach. So it was quite hard.
00:39:13
Speaker
I'd have meetings with staff and students over the years and my preference has always been in those situations to either tell the truth or to say, that's something I can't tell you at this time. And I remember saying to students once, look, you have to understand that
00:39:37
Speaker
the situation as it is may not represent the way I would like it to be. This is just the best we can do at the moment. And Ian and I had that conversation, you know, this is what we do. This is the curriculum. And you must assume that I, you may assume that I think it's perfect. When in fact I would really like to change it, but we're doing the best that we can under the circumstances. And so those kinds of things,
00:40:06
Speaker
I don't think until you find yourself pinned to the wall by a pitchfork with a lot of angry people, carrying torches, trying to burn your castle down, you don't appreciate that some of the job is defending a situation that you would really rather not.
00:40:27
Speaker
Obtained and but you at the moment you can't change. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty tough And you're quite young as well. So you in your late 30s when you come over? Yeah, I was in my late. I was in my late 30s at that point. Yeah, that's amazing Did you had any ambition to be involved at that level or did you just kind of evolved? No, it just kind of turned out that way and
00:40:54
Speaker
One of the things that I don't know whether it's widely known when the BSO now, UCO obviously was and I think remains a strange hybrid organization. It's a registered charity.
00:41:17
Speaker
and therefore bound by all the contents of the Charities Act and so on and so on. But it's also a limited company. And when they set up the limited company, I think in the late 40s, when Little John died, they created 500 shares, A shares, and they created some B shares.
00:41:42
Speaker
and the B shares were held by somebody who was considered to be absolutely rock solid trustworthy and they would always be able to outvote any kind of move by other shareholders to sell up the institution or incorporate something in the curriculum that really was not osteopathic.
00:42:07
Speaker
And what we worked out soon after I became principal, the first thing was that up to and including Norman Lindop's time, the principal was the secretary to the board. The principal did not vote at board meetings, and the principal was not really accountable in terms of being a director of the company. Right, right.
00:42:36
Speaker
And we had a couple of external directors who said, well, that's going to change. And promptly got the Charities Commission to approve the fact that one member of the board could be paid. And so I became effectively a managing director and chief executive and a member of the board.
00:43:00
Speaker
So that that changed. And then we went from having an osteopath as chair of the board to having an external chair. Yeah. And so we made that change, which is a good thing, because I then had chairs of the board who had massive experience of the world beyond osteopathy. And
00:43:30
Speaker
The people who were on the BSO board were tremendous people. They gave their time and they were totally dedicated, but many of them didn't have the experience or the skills to run or to be accountable for.
00:43:47
Speaker
running in the governance of an organization with million pound turnovers and big issues to deal with. And so I then had a chair of the board who was Sir William Stavely, who'd been first sealord. And his CV was that he'd entered the Navy as a midshipman and he finished as Admiral of the fleet. And he, by definition, was a big picture person.
00:44:15
Speaker
It was a fantastic chair to have. But we worked out that the BSO shares were no longer being sold to graduates and the rule was that only graduates could buy a share and they could only buy one share.
00:44:35
Speaker
And when we looked, we found that we were up into the high 400s, so there were no shares left to sell. And so the involvement of graduates in the strategy and the direction of the BSO of turning up to annual general meetings and being able to ask questions was severely compromised. So we went through the process and issued another 5,000 shares.
00:45:05
Speaker
I think it was, it may have been a thousand, I don't know, but it was a lot. And we put the price up from a pound to 10 pounds. But it meant that we got a lot of buy in, suddenly graduates started buying a share and turning up to annual general meetings and saying, what are you doing? Which I think
00:45:27
Speaker
is essential. I was going to say, was that an effective strategy? Because I can imagine it could be very effective, but also it could be disastrous in terms of making it so complex, so many different opinions. I think it worked well because Sir William was a chair, then we had another chair who'd been the chief executive of building society and responsible for multi-million pound organizations. And they were very good at
00:45:59
Speaker
guiding the the fact that shareholders are entitled to turn up and say we think the direction of the school needs to be this or we think that your strategy to try to resolve fees issues or whatever or the what are we going to do now that we have an act what are the implications for the school how should we
00:46:21
Speaker
move forward, bearing in mind that we are one day going to have statute of regulation. But they were very good at saying, yes, that's fine and the management team will take that away and look at it.
00:46:34
Speaker
the AGM is not a management group. It does not make management day-to-day operational decisions. That's the job of the chief executive and the team who run the place on a day-to-day basis. But I do think it's a useful thing to have to show up and
00:46:54
Speaker
explain you know have you made have you met your financial targets have you done this and I was really fortunate I had a really good team of people and we did meet our financial targets we we had a lovely meeting with the inland revenue at which they explained their situation about self-employed status and we explained what we did and we
00:47:20
Speaker
we kind of haggled with them a bit or I haggled with them a bit and they said well look how about this and we you know and we shook hands and we said yep so people this side of this criterion they're self-employed anybody over this side will be employed and
00:47:39
Speaker
And suddenly that meant that the big liability of you owe us this much going back 10 years was lifted. And then we got a legal opinion and went to court and dealt with Her Majesty's customs and excise. And we won that and we got a huge repayment of VAT that we'd been forced to charge to patients.
00:48:05
Speaker
So we got that money back. And that made a big difference. So on that basis, that was good. And then in 1992, we had the first class graduate with a degree rather than a diploma.
00:48:26
Speaker
So that was a BSc. Yeah, that's right. Excellent. And so, while that was all going on, you were doing your own degree, you were doing a master's degree in philosophy and healthcare, right? Yeah, I did that at University of Wales, University College Swansea with Stephen Tynman and Bevis Nathan, and I all did that.
00:48:51
Speaker
And I started doing that before I was appointed as the principal. And there was a while there, kind of around 1991, where I found myself grappling with, I was doing clinical work one day a week and running the BSO four days a week. And then I would sit trying to write a master's thesis. In your spare time. In my spare time with,
00:49:19
Speaker
with three small children. And without word processes, you know, it was pretty, yeah, it was pretty basic in those days. Yeah, lots of trips to the British Library. And then we had the Ostia Pass Act. And because we were at the other end of Whitehall from the Palace of Westminster,
00:49:51
Speaker
I had a lot to do with Simon Fielding who was the kind of principal architect and we it was easy for him to
00:50:02
Speaker
to bring people along to the BSO to have a look around and say, well, you know, this is what osteopathy is about. This is what we do. And they'd come in and we'd have a chat and a cup of coffee or occasionally go for a glass of wine. Yes. So I got to know Simon quite well. And Malcolm Moss was the MP who
00:50:24
Speaker
chose the osteopaths act or the bill as a private members bill when he won the private members lottery and Simon took him out for lunch with
00:50:39
Speaker
the two civil servants who were responsible for dealing with osteopaths. And I went with them and we went out for lunch. I just remember we were in a restaurant in St. Martin's Lane, when a bomb went off in a pub, about 100 yards up the road. And we found us, we had to evacuate the restaurant. And I have this image of standing in St. Martin's Lane with
00:51:09
Speaker
Malcolm Moss and these two civil servants and Simon Fielding and Malcolm Moss very sensibly insisted that he take the bottle of wine with him and we all stood there with our glasses chatting away about what was going to happen with the Ostypast Act. Yeah very surreal. It was and it was interesting, it was another facet of running a building
00:51:33
Speaker
in that part of London at that time that, you know, my services manager would put his head into my office and say, the police have been on the phone, there's a bomb threat. Right, right. You know, there's a bomb somewhere in SW1. So when are they coming to search the building? They're not we have to search our own building. And so we had to we had to develop ways of things to do in the event of
00:52:03
Speaker
You know, and it's interesting, you can't really, it's difficult to ask people to go and look, particularly when you've got a library that is open to the public. Yes, yes. Was that always a thing? The library was a public library.
00:52:19
Speaker
in the sense that it was open access, not for borrowing rights, but people could go in there. So that was a decision that I think Stanley Bradford
00:52:37
Speaker
began that certainly Norman Lindott was very, very strongly of the opinion that, you know, knowledge was something that was important and that people should have open access to it so that it was it was driven that way. Yeah, right. Right. Which was good. And librarians, of course, have this strange
00:52:57
Speaker
kind of cosmic frequency that they operate on. So they all talk to each other. And the librarian at the BSO would obviously talk to the librarians at the BCNO and ESO and other people. And they all collaborate and get on, which I think is tremendous. We had some good librarians and great librarians still do. Excellent. So what was the connection with Princess Anne? When did that connection with the BSO start?
00:53:28
Speaker
I have, that started when Norman Lindott was the principal, if I remember rightly. I'm not sure now how it came about. It would have been that someone connected with the board knew someone. The BSO had some really interesting people on its board.
00:53:54
Speaker
I should mention Margo Gore, who was chair of the board for a while, who used to practice in Buckinghamshire, who was a charming woman. It was quite widely known to her contemporaries, but later came out that she spent the war ferrying planes around. She was one of a group of female pilots who
00:54:23
Speaker
used to deliver aircraft for the RAF. And so she had this background before she did us, obviously, and went to the BSO of being a pilot who'd fly bombers and fighters around.
00:54:38
Speaker
deliver them to the RAF. And so yeah, that group of people who were the kind of career change people that went into osteopathy in the 40s and 50s had some really interesting connections. And one of them, I think, had some connection with the Princess Royal. And so she was invited to be the patron and she
00:55:04
Speaker
Very happily, I think, agreed. And she's always been a fantastic ambassador for the institution. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So how long did you stay as principal at the BSO?
00:55:17
Speaker
It was about seven and a half, nearly eight years. I suppose the three things that I was heavily involved in, one was getting the degree program, the second was getting the finances healthy again, and the third was relocating from Suffolk Street to Borough High Street.
00:55:43
Speaker
What we found out was that the Suffolk Street building was owned by the Crown Estate and a lease had been signed by the BSO when they took on the building which committed them to
00:56:05
Speaker
I think it was five yearly rent reviews, but there was in the contract, it said, and these are upward only. The rent can only ever go up or stay the same, I guess. But in the event of a property crash and rents all over London going down, the Crown was under no obligation ever to put the rent down.
00:56:33
Speaker
And it became clear that the rent was ever only going to go up and would become a bigger and bigger proportion of operating costs. And by the mid 90s, London was getting busier. There's a bus stop in
00:56:56
Speaker
on the corner of Trafalgar Square, they're just at the end of Pall Mall. So people using the lecture room on the ground floor would regularly have to put up with route master buses, stopping and pulling away. And up in the upper floors, it was a bit of a labyrinth, the heating system was ancient.
00:57:19
Speaker
It needed several million pounds spending on it to bring it up to standard, to make it a good place in which to run a degree program. And people gave us advice, we sought professional advice, we looked at what it would cost. And then out of the blue, we were approached by the University of Notre Dame, if you're English or Notre Dame, if you're American.
00:57:47
Speaker
in Indiana and they were looking for a European headquarters building. Right, right. And to cut a long story short, we went through various machinations of them approaching us to take on the building and one of the exciting elements of that was that we got some surveyors in to give us advice and they said
00:58:16
Speaker
The lease requires you to hand the building over in good condition. And what you do is you have a schedule of condition of what it was like when you moved in. And you were required to hand it back to the landlord in that condition. But no schedule of condition was ever undertaken. And so the liability to the BSO
00:58:43
Speaker
was enormous. We would have had to have spent a considerable amount of money just to get out of the building. Right. So it's a stroke of luck. Well, the university said, well, we'll waive that. I spent quite a bit of time dealing with
00:59:08
Speaker
the guy who was heading the project, who was a lovely Catholic priest named Timothy Scully. And he was a kind of academic priest, broad Irish-American guy, lovely man. And he said, look, we're not bothered about that. We really like the building. We've researched the origins of the building. And the whole process became tortuous.
00:59:37
Speaker
We thought we had a building and we got it all ready. We got the agreement ready to go. And then the people selling the building changed their minds and sold it to somebody else. The one that the BSO was going to take on. And we were working to deadlines and I phoned Timothy Scully in the States and said, you know, I've got bad news. This has happened so we can no longer go ahead. And he said, well, what are you going to do? And I said, we'll start.
01:00:06
Speaker
looking again for a new location. And he said, well, we'll give you time to do that. Which was extremely kind of him to do that. And a lot of people who were associated with the BSO were not happy at the idea of moving from the location. Because it was a lovely address and the corner of Trafalgar Square, you could go to galleries and you could go to all kinds of lovely places.
01:00:34
Speaker
A number of times I said to my colleagues, look, to really upgrade the building would cost ยฃ5 million, and if we had ยฃ5 million, we would be mad
01:00:47
Speaker
to spend it on a building that will never belong to us. If we had five million, we wouldn't stay. And because we haven't got five million, we shouldn't stay. And so we found, I spent ages looking at buildings, and we found that building in Borough High Street.
01:01:12
Speaker
and we put together a finance deal and our bankers were Barclays bank who were across the road from us at the time at the bottom of the hay market. And we put this complex package together and our bank manager set off into the hierarchy of Barclays bank and he got back to me and said it's been approved and it's
01:01:37
Speaker
it's gone all the way to a Barclay and they've looked at what you're proposing to do and they've proved it. Which was a kind of way of saying this is a really close decision. Nobody felt able to make it. They kept passing it up and up and up.
01:01:58
Speaker
you know, we were fortunate to be able to find a building with an equity lease. So the BSO bought the remaining lease, I think, of 60 something years on the building in Borough. And so the lease became an asset rather than a liability. And that made life much easier. And also by then, the act was 93 and
01:02:26
Speaker
as I was leaving the BSO, that GEOSC had been formed and was beginning to look at how it was going to put some policies together. So I had a few meetings and we formed the, I felt it was really important that the institutions providing educational programs get together. So Derek Edwards, I think was still at the BSO then, but we pushed,
01:02:55
Speaker
We tried to get the other institutions together and we formed COE, you know, the Council of Osteopathic Education. Yes. Okay. Institution. Yeah. It would have been good to call it the Council of Osteopathic Colleges, but Coq would not be a good.
01:03:10
Speaker
Good foresight there, good foresight. Would not have been a good acronym. So we went with COE and I think it was important that the colleges had a forum in which they could discuss things and provide
01:03:26
Speaker
an opportunity to exchange ideas and then go to the general, the G-O-S-C as a group, you know, instead of being dealt with purely on an individual basis, which of course continue to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Okay, so you
Clive's Transition to New Zealand and Global Influence
01:03:43
Speaker
What was it that led to you deciding it was time to wrap up at the BSO? Was the opportunity in New Zealand on the horizon at that point, or was that still not featuring? No. I'd been running the BSO for seven years, and we'd gone through a huge financial amount of turmoil.
01:04:13
Speaker
And the day after the, I remember really well, the day after the 1992 election, when John Major got back into power. That Friday, I was in London, and our bank manager, our bank manager took my finance director and I out to lunch. And it was a turning point.
01:04:43
Speaker
think it was the first time in my life I'd had a bank manager who was younger than me. That's concerning. Which is, it is concerning, it's the start of a steady glide past down from that point. And he took, my finance director was a lovely woman called Kate Stuart Smith. He took the two of us out to lunch
01:05:04
Speaker
And there was a very strange atmosphere in London that day. It was like everybody had woken up to a situation they didn't expect. It was kind of spooky and he sat down and we had lunch and he said, well done. I didn't think you were going to do it. And we said, what? And he said, we would have closed you down. We would have shut the BSO down if you didn't solve the finance problems. We were ready to
01:05:28
Speaker
call in the liquidators and you would have you'd have come in and found the doors chained so it was that that kind of that was like a you know glass of water down the back of your neck I think we knew we knew it was a real we knew it was real but nobody had ever actually said nobody had ever uttered the words yes exactly so we'd done that and we'd moved to school and
01:05:58
Speaker
getting through that and dealing with putting together this deal in which the people we bought the lease from agreed to take staged payments and we had to pay compensation to the University of Notre Dame to allow them to make good the problems with the Suffolk Street building. But everybody agreed to take staged payments rather than us having to come up with this big check
01:06:27
Speaker
on day one and that was very very complex to do and I by that stage I'd been the principal for seven plus years and I said to people that I've been at the BSO for half my life as a student and then teaching and then as principal you know and I'd been involved pretty much non-stop for
01:06:55
Speaker
nearly 24 years, which was a long time. And I just felt that in order to get the BSO through the next phase of its evolution, which was to carry out the financial plan, make good all of the commitments, get used to working in a new location, you really had to sign on for four or five years to do that.
01:07:24
Speaker
And I just didn't think I had the energy or the stamina to do another five years and I thought it would be better
01:07:34
Speaker
to step aside and let them identify somebody else to do that rather than to get a year or two into the process and throw in the towel. So I did that and it was soon after that that I got the hospital
01:07:57
Speaker
appointment and I was just enjoying doing that. Where was that again? That was in Kettering in Northamptonshire where I used to live. So I was working in the clinic that I was running there and that was going well and I was doing some overseas teaching and other stuff and then this opportunity came up in New Zealand where
01:08:27
Speaker
there had been a small part time school for some years. But the majority of osteopaths here were overseas trained some had been in Australia, some had been trained in the UK. And they found an institution to take on providing a program in osteopathy. And they recruited an American
01:08:56
Speaker
guy who was a sort of retired DO educator, a guy called David Patrick win. Okay, who'd actually been a military osteopath. You know, some of your listeners will be aware that the American profession has a very strong and rightly proud tradition of Dios serving in the military. Oh, I didn't know that. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. So there are, there's a whole sub branch of American Dios who've
01:09:25
Speaker
served in lots of theatres of war. And some of the US armed forces, most senior medical people have been DOs. But as is often the case, it's often not mentioned that they're a DO rather than MD.
01:09:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, one of the stories I was about to mention is the guy who I've done a lot of training with at a postgraduate level is a chap called Paul Cheque, and he was in the 82nd Airborne Division. And his kind of background was he got involved with the army boxing team. He was a boxer himself. He became the trainers to the boxing team. But the head of the medical team was an osteopathic doctor. And so I think right early in his career, he had quite a strong osteopathic influence.
01:10:17
Speaker
And that's very much reflected in his teachings now. So yeah, you mentioning that sort of all adds up. Yeah, that's right. So some senior figures in the osteopathic profession were DOs. And David Patrickwin was recruited by Unitec to come here and set up the program and they
01:10:46
Speaker
decided they would go with the model that was in place over the Tasman in Australia and they went for a three-year bachelor's with a two-year master's degree and David was here for a year designing the bachelor's degree
01:11:06
Speaker
before there were any students, which anyone who's done a lot of teaching will think that would just be a blissful existence. And then he took on the first cohort and taught them the first year of that program. And then he came to the end of his two year contract and went back to the States. I think he was from Vermont. He went back there.
01:11:33
Speaker
And Unitec had a little go at recruiting somebody to work there, but decided they would carry on with local osteopaths. David had recruited a whole load of local people who came in mostly on a volunteer basis. They had a couple of people they were employing to do some teaching. So they
01:12:01
Speaker
They taught the second year of the program for the first time and they repeated the first year. And as they got through the end of the first semester, they realized that they did not have the resources, human resources needed to go through the third year of the cycle, which would involve teaching the third year of the bachelor's degree.
01:12:26
Speaker
and writing and getting approval for a master's degree. And so anybody who's been involved knows that the first time that you go through the delivery of what looked good on paper is quite a challenge because you've got to write the stuff and deliver it. And you should also be polishing the previous years
01:12:51
Speaker
And so for an institution that hadn't delivered an osteopathic program before, they went very heavily on the people on the other floors of the building who were doing medical imaging degrees and nursing degrees and sports medicine, sports science. And there was also some veterinary medicine, veterinary nursing degrees. So there was a bit of
01:13:19
Speaker
bit of crossover with them as well. But they decided they needed somebody with the experience of writing degree programs and running teaching clinics and teaching and clinical practice. So they asked me to come and originally I was going to come for three years. Right. And so my wife and I are now youngest
01:13:45
Speaker
of our three children came. He was 14 at the time. So the first year, 2001, we arrived in January, which as we're speaking was a week ago today. And the first year was
01:14:06
Speaker
breathless, you know, you arrive in a new country, there's a container full of furniture somewhere between Harwich and Auckland. You've got to get ready to deal with a group of students who had not been very happy the year before, which is an understatement. You've got to recruit and you've got to decide how the third year of program is going to be delivered for the first time.
01:14:36
Speaker
and set up the team to teach that. At the same time, I said, so this master's degree, yes. When does it need to be ready? Oh, by September. And then what? Oh, then we have to go through a formal approval process. Ah, good. So the first year was really full on and we got the master's program
01:15:00
Speaker
written and the formal approval process by the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, they sent a team of people to go through one of those accreditation processes which are always such fun. And I remember saying to the institution that the chief executive of the institution at that time was a
01:15:27
Speaker
a guy called John Webster who was from the west of Scotland and he had one of those lovely west of Scotland accents and spoke very quietly in a sing-song voice and if I had any issues I could go straight down the corridor and find his office and talk to him although I talked to my own head of department and dean but I got quite used to talking to him and then I said to somebody so this clinic we need for next year yes
01:15:56
Speaker
Where is it going to be? Well, we thought about this building here and that's not going to be big enough. And so all those kind of things, they were enjoyable and soluble. But then for the next two years, then we were teaching a master's degree and the weakness of
01:16:16
Speaker
You know, I've said this many times in many places, I'm quite happy to say it again. It's very difficult asking students to complete a master's level thesis when they've had no experience of the workplace. You know, and so people would make the leap across from a bachelor's degree to a master's degree.
01:16:43
Speaker
And they had in this country, they would be starting the master's degree in February. And they would need to in order to graduate at the end of the following year. So let's say November. So you're looking at 21 months. So you're giving people 21 months to touch a real patient for the first time.
01:17:10
Speaker
because there was no act here at the time so anybody could practice and so the profession when they designed the bachelor's degree had not wanted any clinical work in the bachelor's degree because there was there's a concern that people would then go off and do osteopathy without a proper qualification. So you go from no clinical experience to clinical competence in 21 months
01:17:36
Speaker
at the same time as acquiring all these skills and writing a dissertation, which has to be externally marked and meet international master's standards. And to say to somebody, you know, we want you to be a competent clinician,
01:18:00
Speaker
and to do all this other stuff. And you've got less than two years to do it. And your research has to be comparable to any other master's level research. So a physiotherapist or a radiographer, medical imaging technician doing a master's level degree would probably go back into master's level study after two or three years of workplace experience. And they would have formulated questions or areas of interest
01:18:30
Speaker
in that time and have had a chance to say, yeah, that's something I'm interested in. And if you're not interested in your research, actually buckling down and doing it is really, really hard, you know? Yeah, yeah, of course. So I'm trying to understand the structure. So basically the structure was that they start out with a bachelor's degree. Yeah. Of course, how many years? Three years? Three years full time, yeah.
01:18:57
Speaker
three years full time and then they do another 21 months to get the mark. Well it's another four, another four semesters but one of the problems, so in the UK you and I, I did a four-year diploma, did you do a diploma or bachelor's? I did the bachelor's. Right yeah but so between the second and third year you do a summer clinic session
01:19:25
Speaker
That's right. And so you spend a number of weeks doing full time clinical practice. So you arrive in your third year, you've already done some clinical work and you do some full time clinical experience as a genius student, then you do your third year, then you do another clinical placement in the summer of your third year. And so you arrive in your final year.
01:19:51
Speaker
with well over a year of clinical experience and two summers worth of doing nothing but treating people, doing a nine to five clinical shift. Down here, people complete their bachelor's degree
01:20:08
Speaker
let's say in the summer of 2001, and they graduate from the bachelor's degree, they don't enroll in the master's degree until the beginning of 2002, so they're no longer students. They can't do clinical work because they're not registered as students. Furthermore, in the Southern Hemisphere,
01:20:33
Speaker
there is a big shutdown from just before Christmas until around the 5th or 6th of January. Nobody, you know, institutions are closed. So the summer, the summer workload is very different here to a summer in London, you know, in London at the BSO, UCO, BCOMM,
01:20:55
Speaker
It's open every week during the summer. There'll be different people there. They come and go. But in the universities down here, the place shuts down for two weeks or three weeks.
01:21:10
Speaker
And so doing that summer placement thing is a completely different challenge, different prospect. Right. Yeah. We don't have Christmas in the middle of summer here. No, you don't. And people can do clinical placements during the Easter vacation and the Christmas vacation. Yeah. So getting people, getting students
01:21:33
Speaker
up to speed with clinical experience and competence is a really tough call in these configurations. And it all, the first university or the first state funded program here was at the Philip Institute in Melbourne. And somebody who taught me Peter Hawkins was recruited by the Philip Institute to help them get that up and running.
01:22:03
Speaker
And they did a four-year program for a while and then they worked out that they could not get everything into the curriculum that they wanted to in the four years. And so they upped it to five years and so early graduates from the Philip Institute, which was then absorbed into Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, RMIT,
01:22:30
Speaker
They did a four-year program, then they did a five-year program. But the university solved the problem of what qualification to award by awarding them two degrees. They got two bachelor's degrees at the end of five years. And the first time I went to RMIT, I said, so which degree do they do first? And they said, well, they don't.
01:22:55
Speaker
What do you mean? Well, they just study for five years and they get two bachelor's degrees at the end. It's kind of an academic points type system. It was a strange solution. The problem with the solution became clear that they were confined to undergraduate funding models.
01:23:26
Speaker
The osteopathy program was in the same building as the chiropractic program at RMIT. And for many years, the whole department was run by a chiropractor guy called Andre Kleinhans. And I'm not clear why, but
01:23:50
Speaker
The proportion of chiropractic students to osteopathic students was always something like 80-20. The funding was not great.
01:24:07
Speaker
was pretty tricky time for them. And yeah, as a result, a breakaway group went to Victoria University in Melbourne. And they came up with the three plus two model and students did the three years of the bachelor's and automatically transitioned into the master's degree, which was, which was funded on a very different model. So the university found that they could generate the funds they needed to do a lot of research and a lot of clinical
01:24:37
Speaker
Okay, content. And so the three plus two model became the standard model. But the problems that I outlined before, we're always there, you know, you're asking near fight people to come up with
01:24:53
Speaker
masters level research and if you're in a big research driven university you may well have the research program going on that students can buy into. The problem at Unitec was that it was an institute of technology, a polytechnic with no
01:25:10
Speaker
no great research momentum in that area. And so it was really difficult for students to identify a topic. And over the years, over the last 15 years, there's been a substantial move away from the five year three plus two model. And I've also been quite clear in public that the
01:25:36
Speaker
around the world this is it's been the case that the profession has said we need research in order to validate osteopathy we need research and so we'll do that by making students do good research and I think it is
01:25:51
Speaker
I think it's a profoundly flawed strategy to say that the profession needs saving by underpinning with research outcomes and we're going to get undergraduates to do that. It's simply not going to work. So one of the things we did when I was at the BSO, we tried to invest long term in research.
01:26:20
Speaker
had a good relationship with Brian Cleager at the AECC, Anglo-European College of Chiropractic in Bournemouth. We funded people like I.L. Lederman to do a PhD and we put money into other research people, people like Steve Vogel.
01:26:48
Speaker
And what I think we saw was that it takes a really long time to grow that research culture. It does happen. But it's a tremendously long-term process. And you take on those things and you think, yeah, we'll do this. And it does bear fruit. Yes. And there is a genuine, and I think highly
01:27:14
Speaker
worthy community of osteopathic researchers now. It's 30 years since I took on the BSO position and we started putting money into
01:27:29
Speaker
that kind of activity and it's arguably only, it took 15 to 20 years for it to really start gathering momentum and it's going well now. Yeah, yeah, interesting. I guess looking back it, you know, because you saw the whole process unfolds, it must have seemed quite slow at the time but looking back now it probably is quite exciting to see where you've got to, where the profession's got to.
01:27:55
Speaker
I think it's great, yeah, and I think osteopathy, the nature of clinical osteopathy has changed. Everything's changed, hasn't it? The world. It has, for sure. The world we look at.
01:28:11
Speaker
Well, I was interested in the way that your practice has changed as well because obviously you've been right at that kind of cutting edge of seeing the trends come and go and the knowledge obviously increase and become more amalgamated with other disciplines. The whole debate around the philosophy is being important, that kind of thing. So I was quite intrigued as to where you're at in your own practice and philosophy philosophy.
01:28:44
Speaker
Yeah, that's something I think about a lot.
01:28:52
Speaker
It's a couple of years since I got involved with the Osteopathic International Alliance in its early days. And through working on the board of the OIA, I met Johannes Mayer, who is a German doctor osteopath. And after we'd worked together on the OIA board for a while, he said that he and a colleague were planning to produce a textbook.
01:29:20
Speaker
And they would really like an English language editor to work with them. And so we agreed we would do this. And then after a while, the other guy in Matthias worked out he didn't have the time to do it. And so Johannes and I spent several years producing this textbook of osteopathic medicine.
01:29:43
Speaker
German edition, now English edition. I contributed a chapter as you probably recall. Correct. I have to say I wasn't quite as heavily involved as my co-writer but it's the first textbook that I've been involved with where I don't understand what I actually wrote because I don't have an English copy yet. Do you not? Leave that with me and I'll see if I can get them to send you one. It was really interesting reading
01:30:13
Speaker
reading several times, all of the contributions to that. And a phrase I've been playing with for the last few days is that it's a combination of belief and disbelief, really. And maybe when I started, it was heavily weighted towards the belief end.
01:30:42
Speaker
That's not to say that people like Colin Dove and Audrey Smith were not assiduous in being rational and looking at science. And Colin was instrumental in bringing Kim Kaur to the BSO several times. Also known as Irving Kaur for those people that aren't aware of that. Yeah, that's right. And he was a lovely guy.
01:31:11
Speaker
And I remember talking to him and he said to me, you know, one of my students said to me, if you could get everybody you ever taught in a room together and do one last presentation, what would you do? And Kim said, he said, I'd apologize for all the crap I told them when I didn't know any better.
01:31:39
Speaker
which is a remarkably humble thing from somebody like him. I was interested to read Shilton Webster Jones' speech to the
01:31:57
Speaker
the dinner the BSO held to celebrate its Diamond Jubilee in 1977. And he talked about the fact that when he took over from Little John,
01:32:10
Speaker
and a new group of people became teachers, they had to confront the fact that some of the stuff they had been taught and were teaching didn't actually work. And it wasn't actually like that. And I think when we went through the degree thing, we as a profession, you know, we had to teach critical thinking and, you know, you have to say to students, well, you've got to find a way of
01:32:40
Speaker
of questioning everything but at the same time you've got to hold on to something in order to actually take any kind of move forward. And I think that balancing act is quite hard and I've seen students and practitioners not be able to keep that balancing act going and to give up and go and do other things because the ability to maintain a number of
01:33:09
Speaker
models of reality in your head while you deal with somebody and base your actions on initial outcomes can be quite challenging for people who are convinced there is a right and a wrong answer to the question. Because that's not always the case when you deal with complex clinical realities. I think the two biggest things I see
Evolving Models and Philosophies in Osteopathic Practice
01:33:38
Speaker
The first thing is the world we live in, you know, the stuff that we sat and listened to people telling us and wrote down, you can now stand at the bus stop and get any kind of document from anywhere on your smartphone. And so the exclusivity of knowledge and quote unquote, experiences is, you know, people can sit on a bus and look at a YouTube video of me or you. Yeah, yeah.
01:34:04
Speaker
they don't have to sign up for four years of their lives to do all that stuff. And so what it is we're trying to do when we put an educational program together has had to be completely rethought. But I think the value of being in a room with an experienced person who can watch what you do
01:34:30
Speaker
and observe your interaction with the patient and provide meaningful feedback is still essential. And I've said to a few people, patients lately, you know, when I, I think I put my first, first put my hands on a patient in 1975, at the end of my second year at the BSO.
01:34:55
Speaker
And I would have dealt with people who were born in the 19th century. So the 75, 80 year olds I dealt with then, they were really 80. They'd lived through two world wars.
01:35:11
Speaker
They'd seen the motor car arrive, the radio, the television. Domestic life had changed. People weren't shopping every day. They walked to work, they biked to work, or they took the bus. And so for the first half of my clinical career, I was dealing with people who'd led physically very demanding lives. And so well over half of the people we dealt with when I was a student and a new
01:35:41
Speaker
practitioner, there was a lot of mechanical low back problem from people who'd abused and overused their backs. Now, the number of people who are involved in really physically demanding work is very small. All of the builders I see use battery pack, power tools, hardly anybody uses a hand saw.
01:36:08
Speaker
all of the gear is delivered on pallets by people with high abs. About the only guys who are doing it the old way are the scaffolding people. And the vast majority of patients, or a significant majority, maybe not a vast majority, but so many stress-induced problems, people with mismatches between their
01:36:35
Speaker
physical workload and their adrenal, neuroendocrinological arousal levels, people spending immense amounts of time sitting, staring at screens, smartphones, driving, and the mismatch between physical and
01:36:58
Speaker
mental emotional workloads is astonishing. And is that because I've noticed when I looked you up that one of the things that you've got on a bio somewhere is that since 2013 you've successfully applied your experience in the areas of Chinese medicine and naturopathy. So is that something that's a kind of a latter development? I worked, after I left Unitec I went to work in the College of Chinese Medicine for a while. That was
01:37:29
Speaker
That was a really interesting experience. It's a small college of Chinese medicine here in Auckland and they were having difficulties with the qualifications authority and they needed somebody to help them reframe the way they were running their teaching clinic and their degree. So I helped them iron out some problems they were having with compliance issues in the way they were running their teaching clinic and
01:37:59
Speaker
the way they were running their course, I helped them redesign their course. So there was that. And then I went to work in a college of natural empathy and did some institutional research and development for them and help them do similar kinds of stuff. Right, right. Yeah, so it's interesting looking at the commonalities between osteopathic practice and other non orthodox medical practices.
01:38:30
Speaker
You know, my experience was that we, as a profession, spent a long time putting things in our curriculum to act as a defense against the charge that we were unsafe and that we shouldn't be treating people because we would miss pathology. Yes, yes.
01:39:00
Speaker
I've likened the osteopathic curriculum to the turkey that Baldrick works on in that famous episode of Blackadder when he just keeps shoving more and more stuff in the turkey.
01:39:15
Speaker
an osteopathic curricula around the world, to me have looked like that poor bird. And I said to students, you know, everybody wants to put stuff in a curriculum, very few people are happy to see their stuff taken out. And so that was one of the issues, you know, when I was starting out. Yeah, we put this in here, not because we're going to diagnose this, but because we have to reassure
01:39:46
Speaker
whoever it is that we're not going to miss it. Yeah, of course. And that preoccupation remains. Things are still being designed to reassure onlookers that we are not dangerous rather than to ensure that we're really, really competent. Yes, for sure. Do you see...
01:40:10
Speaker
I was going to say, do you see, obviously you were just alluding to the idea that the sort of psychoneuroimmunology side of things has become an increasing part of what we need and awareness of in the 21st century. I mean, do you feel that the naturopathy and the Chinese medicine have
01:40:33
Speaker
additional tools that can be helpful in that. Is that part of the way your thinking has gone or not necessarily? I suppose so. I mean, those were kind of institutional jobs, really. But you kind of learn by hanging around with Chinese medical practitioners, traditional Chinese medicine, not Western medical acupuncture. You kind of begin to see a little bit how they're
01:41:00
Speaker
paradigm words. I think the other thing that increasingly strikes me is that, particularly the last three and a half years, we live in a very fear driven society. A lot of people make a lot of money out of
01:41:29
Speaker
generating anxiety in the general population. And I see part of my role as a clinician is to reassure people that actually they do have a lot of control over their lives that there are things you can do. The osteopathy that I picked up at the BSO was very much about
01:41:59
Speaker
you know, remaining active. There's a, there's a cartoon somewhere in one of the old BSO documents about somebody asking, little john, you know, is rest a good treatment for this and little john saying rest is for the dead. And the BSO people that I was taught by, you know,
01:42:24
Speaker
It was very, very much, no, don't, don't rest, you know, doing nothing is not a good therapeutic option, you know, stay even a little bit active. And that sense of control, that sense of purpose of achievement is fundamental to people regaining ownership of their lives. Yeah, yeah.
01:42:53
Speaker
And touch is a really important part. And I think, you know, I've worked or dealt with people who are clear that, and there's a, you know, the wonderful, greatly missed Steven Tyman. And I would, you know, talk about the fact that touch somehow for a while became demeaned, a lot of medical
01:43:23
Speaker
a lot of medical technology, you know, it's often said that the stethoscope was the beginning of the slippery slope away from medical practitioners touching their patients. And somehow osteopaths, I think, there is a temptation for some osteopaths to still apologize for touching people.
01:43:46
Speaker
And one of the people I greatly enjoyed working with over the years was Phil Lady, who I don't think gets enough credit for the perspective he brought to bear on osteopathy. And Phil would say, and he and I, I remember not arguing with him, but teasing out the notion that touching people is a part of it, talking to people is part of it.
01:44:16
Speaker
Talking to people while they're being touched is hugely symbolic and very powerful. And so the conversations we have with our patients while we're working on them are really important. And the insights they gain are often quite profound. And it's not because we're the source of profound insights, it's somehow
01:44:45
Speaker
while their brain is working in a particular way and they're being worked on in a touch-based mode. That has a quite different effect. Yes, definitely.
01:45:02
Speaker
One of the guys I quite like to listen to is a guy called Daniel Siegel, who's a psychiatrist, but also heavily into neurobiology. And he defines the mind as an embodied process which regulates the flow of energy and information.
01:45:20
Speaker
And, you know, the interesting thing about that definition is that it's not just his definition, but it's a think tank of psychiatrists and sociologists and anthropologists and people from all kinds of different disciplines who have, you know, looked at one definition of mind and said, well, that doesn't work for my discipline. And together across, you know, a period of years, they've honed to refine this definition of mind to be this embodied process
01:45:47
Speaker
which regulates the flow of energy and information. And if you think of what that means as an osteopath, well, we are engaging directly with that embodiment. And we're talking to them at the same time. So it's a kind of energy and information exchange. And I don't know Phil Leite personally, but I saw a number of his papers in the early Journal of Body Work and Movement Therapies
01:46:12
Speaker
issues and so I'm aware of his approach but you know I imagine that that definition would sit quite neatly with the way he thinks about things. Yeah through Phil we had a guy at the BSO called Peter Randall who was a psychiatrist and left psychiatry and
01:46:39
Speaker
I had the pleasure of teaching Peter when he was doing the BSO course. He was one of the students and that was a memorable experience and so to get my own back I then employed him as a tutor and he once said
01:47:04
Speaker
something which struck me as very profound, which is probably why I remember it. And he said loads of stuff that I've forgotten. But he said, you know, you, and he would always say you or see pass on it. I think he struggled to include himself, but he said, you, you touch people in a way that nobody has touched them since their mother touched him. He said, it's not sexual. It's not possessive. It's not aggressive.
01:47:32
Speaker
it's a caring, nurturing touch. And he said, you do not realize how profound that is. And people, you know, certainly people have told me things that I know they've never disclosed to anyone else. And that's not, that experience is not exclusive to me. And Peter's absolutely right. And so I'm sure he would
01:47:58
Speaker
he would probably want to challenge the definition. He'd want to change it because he's that kind of guy. But it's interesting that the point in the puzzle where psychiatry rubs up against osteopathy, it's a really interesting area. And that's what Phil was exploring in his book, The Muscular Manifesto. And in those papers that he wrote, which I think I often
01:48:25
Speaker
when I do postgraduate workshops, I often say to people, you know, you should go and get fill ladies stuff and read it because there's some really
01:48:36
Speaker
some really good content in there. So now also my exploration of Clive's standard on the internet looking you up. I found that the two sort of groups of patients you're particularly interested in are at either end of the age spectrum. So you've got a strong interest in infants and babies and children and then at the other end with elderly patients as well.
01:49:05
Speaker
How did those interests develop for you? I just found that for some reason, I was reminded by somebody who used to teach with me that a long time ago, she stopped teaching to have children and brought the first one back.
01:49:35
Speaker
as you do, you know, you go back and see your colleagues. She came to the BSO when we were on a break during a first year technique class, which she had, she taught with myself and Adrian Barnes and David Tatton. And we, she got this child with her and it was only years later, she said, do you remember what happened? And I said, no. And she said, well,
01:50:02
Speaker
He was a really grumpy, grouchy baby and he started crying while we were all having coffee. So she said, you have him. I think I'd got a two year old or something at the time. And I wandered around with this child who went off to sleep and she came back a week or two later and said, what did you do? And I said, what do you mean? He said, he's been better.
01:50:27
Speaker
Since you since you worked on him or since you and I and I I Apart from dealing with my own children. I tried to avoid contact with babies as a fairly tall scary person I didn't You know dealing with small children didn't necessarily fit easily with me. Yeah, then I then I Just just found that
01:50:55
Speaker
I didn't find it too difficult working with small children. And it just became something that I got interested in. I don't do so much of it now. I do still do it occasionally. And I've had some really interesting experiences working with small children. I think elderly people, as I mentioned before, some of the quote unquote old people I met
01:51:25
Speaker
when I was quite young. I remember talking to people who fought in the trenches or people who'd had experiences right at the beginning of the last century in the early 1900s. And so I kind of found that
01:51:47
Speaker
they often add some very interesting things to talk about. I think also I've dealt with elderly people who a recurring comment has been
01:52:05
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening to me. And I think listening skills are one of the most important things an osteopath can develop. But I think it's in the nature of our society, elderly people, it's a bit of a truism, but I think it is its actual
01:52:26
Speaker
it's a reasonable thing to say that elderly people are often not listened to. Yes, you lost that kind of elders phenomenon which you would find in more indigenous cultures where the elders are the wise people and they seem to be more discarded, retired, passed the cell by date is the kind of sentiment that seems to be more prevalent in our society.
Osteopathy's Role in Unconventional Treatment
01:52:50
Speaker
And interestingly another element of things that has changed is
01:52:56
Speaker
when I started, we would often see people in the 70s who said I've been everywhere else and nobody wants to do anything, you're my last resort, you osteopaths, not you, really personally. So there was a willingness in those days to
01:53:20
Speaker
to tackle quite weird things, you would take things on, because every other people would say, no, there's nothing we can do. Yeah. And then that that faded away a bit for a while. But it strangely, it's come back again. It's like in in an algorithm based society, people who don't fit an algorithm
01:53:47
Speaker
rock up to see the osteopath and say, well, I've got this and this and this. Who have you been to? I've been here, here, here, and here. None of them, they all say they can't do anything. Yeah, yeah. So as an outlying profession, we end up seeing outlying patients. I think my experience is that that's happened more again. And talking to colleagues in England,
01:54:17
Speaker
I frequently now encounter people, you know, I've got this problem and this problem. Who have you been to? And what did they say? They say they can't treat it. And have they given you any suggestions about what to do? No. And the lack of, one of my friends over there calls it clinical curiosity. You know, this is a weird problem. What do you think it is? I don't know.
01:54:45
Speaker
Well, what do you think I should do? I don't know. Oh, okay then. That's $200. Thanks very much, goodbye. Yes, yes, yes. Patients say to me, they find it intensely frustrating that they go through a little roster of specialists and come out at the other end poorer and no better. And so I think osteopaths,
01:55:14
Speaker
with a pragmatic problem-solving empirical approach can help people to get through their activities of daily living better. An elderly lady said to me a long time ago, I said, how are you doing?
01:55:36
Speaker
it's still there, but I can get to the bus stop now and I can go into town and I can meet my old workmates for coffee and I can get the bus home and that's a huge improvement. And that was quite an eye opener. I thought, okay, so what you really, you know, and it's
01:55:54
Speaker
as Basil thought he would say, it's bleeding obvious, isn't it? What people want is not to be totally pain-free. They would like that. But the first thing they want is to be able to do what they want to do. Yeah, of course. And so I think with elderly people, one of the things I enjoy is saying, well, look, if you want to go for a walk, go for a walk. And that can be quite transformational. Yeah, definitely.
01:56:22
Speaker
So how about your hold my hand business? Is that something that you're still, because I think the website is still active, but you set that up in 2012. It's still there. It was really something to do. And I kind of liked the idea. I never really pushed it anywhere. But I do like the image that what people want is, you know, just like
01:56:49
Speaker
a small child will say, I don't want to do that. And you say to them, well, I'll come with you, I'll hold your hand. Yeah. And, and the notion, the image of somebody being a hand holder, quietly in the background, I still like. I think just after I set that up, I started doing the Chinese medicine thing, right? And then the naturopathy thing, and it kind of
01:57:12
Speaker
it faded away and in fact one of the things I need to do is to renew the website. I saw you had your wife was involved as well, what's her background? Yeah, she was at that time she was a gynecology nurse, she was working as a
01:57:36
Speaker
She worked for the local health board. She was running an early pregnancy clinic. So she was dealing with people having miscarriages and pregnancy problems. And again, one of her interests was
01:57:59
Speaker
people who are medicalised. And Stephen Timon, many years ago now, pointed me to the videos online of Kieran Sweeney. It's on the BMJ website, I think Kieran Sweeney was
01:58:24
Speaker
I think he was a professor of general practice at the Peninsula Medical School down in the southwest of England. And he was a GP. And there's a very moving interview with him online, in which he describes being diagnosed with mesothelioma. And he talks about the fact that none of his colleagues could look him in the eye and nobody really
01:58:51
Speaker
dealt with him and he used this phrase of being somebody at the edge of the human predicament and he said all of the care, all of the treatment I received was technically first class but as a person he felt
01:59:10
Speaker
I think he does use the word abandoned. He had to go through what he went through and how hard it was. Both my wife and I are aware that people go through things like miscarriages and they drop off the conveyor belt.
01:59:37
Speaker
having received very good technical treatment, but somehow not having felt cared for. Yeah, yeah.
01:59:46
Speaker
And we live in an increasingly target-driven society where people have to do so many transactions a day to meet their targets for whichever organization they work for. Yes, yes. And so it can become hugely problematic for the patient who still wants their
02:00:17
Speaker
still wants their story to be heard and to be able to make sense of it for themselves. And so I think that's what the Hold My Hand thing was about, that you may just want somebody to bounce this off and help you make sense of it, not to make sense of it for you or to tell you what it is or whatever. And I think that
02:00:46
Speaker
It's a strange thing. We live in a hugely connected world in which it's much easier to communicate. But those problems are ongoing. Yes.
02:00:59
Speaker
I think osteopaths have a lot to do, a lot to contribute. Yeah, definitely. So what does the future hold for you now?
Balancing Professional and Personal Life
02:01:11
Speaker
Are you winding the practice down or are you still going for all the glazing? No, I work for two other people.
02:01:20
Speaker
I do a Monday and a Friday and one clinic and I'm sort of a short Wednesday and another one. And I do stuff. We have a system people come into New Zealand from the UK. It's called a confident authority pathway and they work under the kind of distant guidance of a preceptor they have to go through.
02:01:50
Speaker
a set process to make sure they understand the law here and that they practice in a way that is consistent with what the council requires. So I do some of that and I do other bits and pieces of online consultancy for people. People talk to me sometimes about curriculum design or those sorts of things. I heard a guy in the radio,
02:02:20
Speaker
saying that he was trying to manage his retirement by doing two days of earning, two days of learning and keeping three days for himself. And that that seemed to me to be a really good kind of guideline. You spend some time some time making a bit of money. Yeah.
02:02:44
Speaker
sometimes doing something that makes your brain work and then then doing stuff like walking the dog which I need to be doing soon yes yes I was going to say yeah absolutely your young puppy is crossing his legs yeah um he's asleep under the chair um but yeah I
02:03:05
Speaker
I think it's not necessarily a smart thing to stop working abruptly. And I think it's, like I said to you right at the beginning, osteopathy is a peculiar combination of mental and physical activity. And that's why I think it's a good thing to keep doing, not indefinitely, but
02:03:32
Speaker
all the wild people come and say, you know, I feel really, I feel really good since that treatment. We just keep going a little bit longer. Absolutely. Yeah. Fantastic. So Clive, if you had any advice for a young person, perhaps considering a career in osteopathy or perhaps they've started their career, they're doing their training, what advice would you
02:03:52
Speaker
offer them because if you recall the the podcast is called From Chaos to Order so we're trying to make some sense of all the confusion that's out there what would be your kind of simplicity that you would offer them? I think it's trying to find people who will talk honestly with you
02:04:19
Speaker
I just before we started talking, I caught the end of BBC World Service programme about the nature of argument and the guy the guy was saying one of his pieces of advice for how to
02:04:47
Speaker
argue as in kind of explore something was don't assume you know what someone else means. And so to try to find people who you can talk to who won't assume you're an idiot if you say you don't know. I think saying you don't know is really important.
02:05:15
Speaker
don't want to be controversial. But osteopathy is a profession in which it's, it's too easy to bluff. Yeah, yeah. And so I think if you're a young person starting out, find a find somebody with more experience who is not gonna bullshit with, oh, well, you'll understand that after another 10 years, yes, somebody who's prepared to be
02:05:44
Speaker
to put time in to listen to you and that you can listen to them. You know, Phil later used to say, when he was working in Notting Hill, prior to his departure for Australia, he used to, in the morning he used to see what he would
02:06:08
Speaker
describe as the basic bread and butter osteopathic patients. And he'd do four hours of that, and then he'd have a long lunch break. And he would see them for 20 or 30 minutes. So he'd do a normal list. And then in the afternoon, he'd book difficult patients for an hour each.
02:06:37
Speaker
so that he could really spend time talking to them and listening to them, talking with them and spend time dealing with them. When I did a cranial course with Roland Becker, I did two cranial courses with Roland Becker, but he said to people, don't abandon everything you've been taught. Just choose one or two patients a day to try things with and talk to them about what you're doing.
02:07:06
Speaker
And so that kind of good communication, I think it's a crucial thing, which is why things like good podcasts are really useful. Finding people that you can talk to who will share, like I said, I'm repeating myself now, people will honestly share experiences and listen. That would be the thing.
02:07:37
Speaker
You know, like I said before, just have a go. Really have a go and make good notes. That's the other thing. Make good notes. And if you have a really... Even if you just put something in the notes that said had meaningful conversation with patient, you don't have to write down what it was. Yeah, yeah.
02:08:05
Speaker
It can be really useful to, if you do ever have to go back and look at your notes, to remember that there was something in the interaction that was significant. Yes, yeah, yeah. Sure. Excellent. Yeah. Well, so if people want to get hold of you, Clive, where would be best to do that? Should they look you up online or should we share? Yeah, that's the best thing. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Excellent. Email's good.
02:08:34
Speaker
Brilliant. And I'm really happy to, I do get people from different countries contacting me to say, what do you think about this or what do you think about that? Yeah, yeah. Which is nice, very flattering when that happens. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I think the whole my hand thing, I know you said that you didn't push it, but I think it's such a fantastic offering that's there. Would you still be willing to offer that kind of mentorship? Absolutely, yeah. And I really, I will talk to my web guy and we'll go and have a look at
02:09:03
Speaker
reinvigorating it, I think. And in fact, it's probably in terms of FaceTime and Zencaster and all the other software, is it easier to do it now than it would have been when I started? Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic, isn't it? Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much for your time. I was going to finish off with a quote, which I don't know if you know this, but the first time I saw Kim Kaur, as you mentioned Kim Kaur or Evan Kaur,
02:09:28
Speaker
earlier in the discussion. And the first time I saw him speak, he actually opened with this. And he said, what do an osteopath and a proctologist have in common? I don't know if you know the answer to that. Do you know the answer? I've heard him say that, yeah. Well, I'll remind you, he says that they both see the body as a whole. That's right. There you go. It's a good conclusion, though.
02:09:58
Speaker
You know the story about, he was a very good violinist. You know that story? I don't know that one, no. Brian Dagenhart tells this story about when he was at Princeton. He played in a string quartet and he played first violin. And the guy who played second violin was a physicist who was at Princeton at the same time, a guy called Einstein. And so Brian likes to say that Einstein played second fiddle to core.
02:10:29
Speaker
Brilliant. I love that. That's very good. I'm sure cool like that as well.
02:10:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I think so. Yeah. And if you if you ever met Kim Kaur, and shook hands with him, it means you're just one handshake away from Einstein. Yeah, amazing. Good stuff. Fantastic. All right. Well, thanks so much for your time again. And yeah, hopefully our paths will cross soon. I'm out with you, or at least in your neck of the woods in March. So so fingers crossed, we will cross. Yeah, fantastic.
02:11:05
Speaker
So there was an in-depth journey through the life of Clive and his experiences in shaping the osteopathic profession here in the UK and around the world.
02:11:13
Speaker
Whenever you meet with someone with so much experience in this field, you inevitably meet with much wisdom, which I hope you enjoyed. In the next episode, we have my Czech colleague, Jator Pierre, where we dive deep into an array of topics, as those of you who know Jator will not be surprised by. From his work with the Czech Institute, with Chris Krasa, and his own inimitable, raw, honesty approach to emotional coaching, there's plenty of juice, philosophy, and sustenance there for the most inquiring of minds. Thanks for joining us again today. See you on the next show.