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FC2O Episode 11 - Timothy Carroll
15 Plays5 years ago
In this episode we welcome Timothy Carroll, elite Performance Consultant who specialises in the "Inner Game". Join us to glean some insights into factors that may be holding you back from realising your own potential.
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Transcript
Personal Responsibility and Results
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, if you can, one of the big things that we work in in cognitive behavioral sciences is making, making, helping people get at cause for the results, rather than being at effect. And so, you know, some people listening might say, well, you know, it's unconscious. So, you know, who cares? And, and other people will be saying, you know, will be saying, well, you know,
00:00:26
Speaker
Well, that's controlling my communication, my behavior, my results. And I don't see the world, I see myself. So I better get clear about what's creating that. And if whatever is not working, then I better go inside and make changes so that it does work for me and improve my performance and results in life.
00:00:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's all about, you know, where are you on that scale? Are you at cause? Are you taking responsibility or are you at effect and blaming life and people and situations and circumstances? And that's the two sides of the coin.
Introduction to Timothy Carroll
00:01:33
Speaker
Welcome to FC2.0. Today we have Timothy Carroll joining us to help us find order amongst the chaos of everyday life. Timothy is an elite performance consultant. Starting our life as an elite athlete, Timothy went on to become a leading performance coach working with top athletes and sports teams, as well as moving into the corporate world to work with leaders in that field. As an holistic thinker, Timothy incorporates a huge array of tools and techniques to help people with their inner game, as he calls it, to realize their potential.
00:02:02
Speaker
Author of the book, The Evolutionary Leader, Timothy applies the wisdom and insights of many of the world's most revered teachers to facilitate optimal performance in leaders of all disciplines using a values-based business model. Thanks for joining us as we let Timothy lead us from chaos to order. Enjoy the show. Here we go.
Timothy's Journey in Barefoot Water Skiing
00:02:37
Speaker
Welcome to another edition of FC2.0 with me, Matt Walden, and my guest today, Timothy Carroll. Timothy, how are you doing? I'm great, mate. Excellent to be here. Excellent. Well, thank you for coming on. I've wanted to interview you for a little while because obviously we've known each other for a while and worked together for a long time.
00:02:55
Speaker
it's great to be able to share some of our shared experiences but also to understand more about your background and how you got to where you're at. So I really wanted to start out by asking you, because obviously I'm aware that you're quite an elite barefoot water skier as a kid, but tell me a bit more about your childhood and how you got into that barefoot water skiing.
00:03:17
Speaker
Mate, that was a lifetime ago. Yeah, so my father, yeah, he was, he was one of the founders of the New Zealand Barefoot Water Ski Club. And it's quite an interesting sport. So back in the 70s, he founded that with four, four other individuals. And I was really bored into the sport and learned to water ski when I was like eight. Yeah. Barefoot ski when I was, you know, in my 10, 11, around that age. Wow. And then, yeah, from there,
00:03:46
Speaker
It went basically from strength to strength. Yeah. Okay. And so, you know, I mean, how much were you doing it? Were you out like once a week or you out less than that or more than that? How did you get to the point where you sort of at that elite level? Yeah. So I was pretty.
00:04:03
Speaker
hungry at a young age. I was competing against a couple of other guys as a junior and we really started to accelerate our skills and so at a young age I was competing hard and then we graduated straight into the men's division and you know started all over again, started at the bottom and we're hungry too.
00:04:28
Speaker
you know, make our way to the top. But at the age of 16, I was picked as a reserve to go to South Africa. And so that was a, I would say was a life changing experience for me to go to South Africa and be part of a New Zealand team, even if as I was on the bench, it was, it was an amazing experience. And that just got me super hungry. And so the amount of training that goes on, you know, it's a lot of hours on the water, obviously. Yeah, you get quite wrinkly feet.
00:04:57
Speaker
Yeah, you get conditioned and like any anything, as you know, the way you use your body gets conditioned.
00:05:08
Speaker
Yeah, so it was a great thing for me because it developed me in so many different ways. Yeah, right. And so was that kind of the pinnacle getting South Africa or did you do anything? I mean, so what was that? Was that a World Championships or what was the event? South Africa at that time they were banned due to apartheid from competing in the World Championships and they
00:05:35
Speaker
You know Zealand was number three in the world at that point and this was in 1986 So they were they were hungry to compete against one of the top three And so they invited us over and and so we we sent a rebel team across him, right? Yeah, that was it was great. So it was two weeks and we got our asses kicked and I
00:06:01
Speaker
and had a blast at the same time, so it was great. Fantastic. I've seen you barefoot water skiing in real life when we went and we took the team barefoot water skiing, well in fact we were water skiing, you were barefoot water skiing, but in the Vibram Five Fingers, which we were distributing at the time, and I've still got some great shots of you going along on one foot with the Five Fingers up in the air just to show them off.
00:06:31
Speaker
I'm going to get some of those for my marketing. That'll be great. Yeah, I will. I'll send them to you. And I'll put them up in the show notes as well. If I can find them, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to dig one or two
Beliefs, Mindset, and Success
00:06:42
Speaker
out. But yeah, so how do you feel that those experiences really sort of teed you up going into your adult life? Yeah, I think sport is a great education.
00:07:01
Speaker
For me, I've always been athletic and grew up playing many different sports. But at the age of 16, I really blew my knee out playing rugby. And I made the decision then that I wasn't going to pursue cricket. I wasn't going to pursue rugby. I was just going to pursue barefoot water skiing. And three years later, or two years later, I was in the New Zealand team.
00:07:26
Speaker
at my first world championships. And I think to travel the world and see all of these amazing people and go to different competitions, that's life changing and it helps you to grow as a person. But I think what the sport teaches you is a lot about yourself and how to get the best out of yourself, what your limits are, how to conquer those limits.
00:07:54
Speaker
and how you work and how to perform. So hours and hours of training and competing, and you learn a lot about yourself. And then through that journey, you get to teach others. And so for me, it was a capitalist. I was teaching the junior team. It was a big kick for me to be able to help them achieve their goals.
00:08:22
Speaker
And really, that was the catalyst for me to start working as a consultant and as a coach and helping others, basically. Fantastic. Fantastic. And what was it? If there was one or two key lessons that you learned, what would you think they would be? What would you pass on to those junior Bedford water skiers or any aspiring athlete?
00:08:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think the number one is, is what you believe is what you achieve. Right. And so, you know, you, you are your, your internal programming, so to speak, yeah, creates your results. And it really doesn't matter how much physical or technical or tactical training you do.
00:09:08
Speaker
you know, if you have limiting beliefs running, or if you have internal programming that is contrary to what you want to achieve, you're going to be doing it tough. So I think, you know, that's the first one, your internal programming is you need to discover that and work on it. And then the second, the second one is really that
00:09:33
Speaker
that top performance happens when there's no mind, when you have this no mind experience, when there is stillness. And then all of that training gets executed, basically. So how do you do that? How do you learn to switch the mind off and become super present?
00:10:00
Speaker
and allow all of that training to happen because that's when you perform literally out of your mind. Yes, right, right. That's interesting. Yeah, because I know how to be doing no mind.
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I remember you gave me a book, which I forget the exact title, but something like getting into the zone or the zone or something like that. And that was all about that exact sort of pursuit of getting into that space where, you know, you're in the zone and you're not thinking and you're letting your body do what you've, as you say, what you've conditioned it and trained it to do.
00:10:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I know that in our interactions over the years, because we must have known each other for about, I don't know, 15 years now, something like that. And, you know, one of the phrases that I know often comes up is talking about the inner game. And, you know, the
00:11:01
Speaker
The inner game, as you've just alluded to, is really where you've gone with your career, isn't it? Do you want to tell us about how you've migrated from your sport into your career pathway? Sure.
Career Shift to Personal Development
00:11:18
Speaker
As you're going through school and
00:11:21
Speaker
I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. And I think that's true for a lot of people when they're leaving, leaving school at the age of 17, 18. And I picked my best subjects. And then and really, you know, I was quite miserable. I wasn't really enjoying enjoying the journey. And, and so, you know, I think, because of the pain,
00:11:46
Speaker
that I was in, I really decided to quit that path. And for me, it was like, you know, it was like having a midlife crisis, but in my early 20s. And, you know, to be honest, it was very challenging because, you know, I quit quit my job.
00:12:07
Speaker
as an architectural draftsman. And my dream was to have, you know, 2.2 kids and a dog and a Volvo and a house by the time I was 30. And that was my idea of success. And so I had to discover what is success, what is happiness. And I was forced to do that at a young age and reinvent myself, basically, or reinvent my idea of what success was.
00:12:36
Speaker
And so, you know, I worked for Make a Wish Foundation, raising money for terminally ill children. I backpacked around the world for 18 months and went away to find myself a bit. And I worked out that in the end, you know, I just started to really focus on, you know, why am I here? What are my talents? And
00:13:00
Speaker
What do I love to do and how can I combine that to help others? And so I went back to, well, I really loved how people achieve their goals. I really loved sport. I really loved coaching and just dived into that. And I ended up working for Australia's number one personal development company who brought over
00:13:30
Speaker
Tony Robbins and Dr. Deepak Chopra and Stephen Covey and all of the amazing authors and lecturers. And over that three year period was exposed to some of these great men and women and really found out that, hey, this is what I want to do. And my philosophy was,
00:14:00
Speaker
if you want to be the best, go and hang out with the best. And yeah, definitely. So that's what I did. And, and then, um, dived into, uh, cognitive behavioral sciences and, and learning that. And I think, you know, Tony Robbins back in 1998, 99, when, when I was in Sydney was, uh, you know, doing really well and, and, uh, I attended his unleash the power within training.
00:14:28
Speaker
And in the three days that I was in the audience, we were promoting them as a company, but I was there in the audience to experience it. And in those three days, I had more personal change than I had in
00:14:44
Speaker
you know, several months of working with a sports psychologist. So I thought, well, I'm not going to do sports psychology. I'm going to, I'm going to learn what this guy's learned. So I turned to positive behavioral sciences and, and that's, uh, and self-actualizing psychology and, and, uh, took that path basically.
Overcoming Sports Injury and Finding Purpose
00:15:01
Speaker
Right, right, yeah, wow. Because I've always wondered what it's like for elite sports people who are so focused on a given target to either achieve that target and then kind of go, what's next? Or to actually feel that their body can't achieve the target or it's reached a point where it can't go on. I've always thought that's got to be a tremendous psychological impact because of the
00:15:28
Speaker
you know, the sheer amount of energy and time that goes into forging that identity and the single mindedness that has to be involved in that level of accomplishment. So, you know, what was your, did you, you know, looking back on it, did you feel like with retrospect, you went into sort of period of depression of some sort? So I think at that point, when it was over,
00:15:57
Speaker
I knew it was over and it was ended for me by an injury. And pretty much coming to the peak of my career at that point, I've been competing for 16 years.
00:16:19
Speaker
I think I had more of a down and a low time when my bubble burst around my idea of success.
00:16:29
Speaker
in the early 90s. And at that point, I went through this crisis and I actually went and saw a psychologist, a professor at the University of Auckland and worked on myself to get support to reinvent my identity, basically. And took a two year break from competing. But when it was over, it was kind of,
00:16:58
Speaker
obvious and I had a purpose and I was working for the companies in Australia, the personal development company, facilitating and promoting and training with these wonderful
00:17:15
Speaker
men and women. And so I really had a purpose. And my career was on. And after the water skiing ended, it kind of naturally moved into me starting my own business. And I kind of
00:17:34
Speaker
facilitated the ending of my water skiing career, facilitated the beginning of my career, being self-employed. Yeah, so the classic kind of one, but we'll close this as another one. Yeah, self-employed. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was fantastic. It reminds me a little bit of
00:17:56
Speaker
Go for it. Sorry, I interrupted you. It reminds me a little bit of a guy that we were taught by at osteopathic college. He was our psychosomatic lecturer and he was a psychiatrist and an osteopath. And his name is Dr. Randall with amazing kind of orator. You could just sit and listen to him for days. He was just such an amazing speaker. But I remember catching him on a break one time and saying to him, you know, he was probably 21 at the time. And I said, you know,
00:18:23
Speaker
You know, I kind of like your advice because I don't feel like I have any psychological issues per se, but would you recommend that you go to see a psychiatrist prophylactically, you know, preventatively? And he said, well, you know, how old are you now? I said, well, I'm 21. He said, well, you know, I'll give it a few years, go down, you know, a few years into your career path. And he said that, you know, what you got to recognize, Matthew, is that none of us live in a utopia. So, you know, we all have
00:18:52
Speaker
various challenges, whether they be, you know, major sort of the classic major life traumas, such as, you know, bereavements or, you know, job losses, house moves, those kinds of things which which create a lot of stress and are well known to create stress for people psychologically, divorces, etc. You know, so we don't have this kind of utopia experience. So there's always things that
00:19:16
Speaker
can be worked on from the inner perspective. Does that represent what you've seen in your career? Yeah, I think it's been a gift actually that for me it was
00:19:32
Speaker
you know, a great gift to be able to have that experience in my early twenties of having that midlife crisis because it really forced me to turn inwards and my whole life had been focused outwards. And so there have been critical phases in my life when I've been forced to turn inwards and examine my emotions and my thinking.
00:20:00
Speaker
For example, when I lost my brother or when I was working with a sports psychologist in my
00:20:10
Speaker
water skiing because it didn't matter how much technical training I was doing, I just wasn't getting any better. So I went to see a sports psych about that and I think that's a metaphor for life.
Inner Perceptions and External Results
00:20:23
Speaker
It's like if you want to improve the results that you're getting outside of yourself, then you've got to turn inwards and look at what's going on inside because what we know
00:20:36
Speaker
is that everything that's going on outside is just a reflection of your own consciousness. So you don't see the world, you see yourself. And so perception is projection. And what that means really is, what I've just said is that we create our results and we create it from our
00:21:00
Speaker
thoughts and our feelings and then that influences our communication and behavior and then that creates the results that we get in life. So I think not everyone understands the secrets of success and how life really works.
00:21:15
Speaker
But in psychology and in cognitive behavioral sciences, that's one of the things that we have learned. And one of the key factors and principles that helps us to get great results with clients is that principle.
00:21:33
Speaker
the you're in a game is critical. If you don't know you're in a game, then you're at a disadvantage. And so, you know, it helps to make everything that's unconscious conscious and and deal with it. Yeah.
00:21:50
Speaker
Right, right. Because I know when you're coaching me, obviously when I was running the Vibram business, you gave me some business coaching and we exchanged some time. I remember one of the processes you took me through was the disowned self process or disowned selves process by Stone & Stone in there, but partnering, which is a fantastic
00:22:14
Speaker
way to shine a light on some of the shadow behaviors that you don't even realize that you're holding within you. What's been your experience of working with that sort of clients? The shadow is, or the disowned self is, and for listeners I think it's important to perhaps frame that up a little bit, is that as we are developing
00:22:38
Speaker
from children into young adults and to full mature adults. The unconscious goes through this process of deciding what works basically in regards to picking character traits. And so, you know, the unconscious might learn that arrogance doesn't work and humility does. And that, you know, confidence works and being, you know, having low confidence doesn't work.
00:23:07
Speaker
And so what it does is it builds up this primary self, which is the self that you show the world.
00:23:14
Speaker
And then the disowned self is all of those character traits or parts of you that you've decided that don't work in a nutshell. And so you push them into the background. And what happens is that your unconscious or subconscious mind is wanting to become whole. And so it works unconsciously towards
00:23:42
Speaker
becoming whole and healthy and healed and happy and complete. And so it attracts people, situations, and circumstances to reflect back to you your disowned selves. And those... Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I quite...
00:24:05
Speaker
Well, I was going to say, I quite like the term disowned selves. I know it's more or less synonymous with shadow, with our shadow aspects and so on. But shadow sounds a bit kind of shadowy and negative and bad, doesn't it? But I like the disowned selves concept. And I remember when I did the process with you,
00:24:25
Speaker
You said this phrase to me, you know, we'd kind of gone through this whole process of uncovering these disowned selves and working out what value they had for me and why they had or how they had served me or served other people in my life. And you said, you know, because you've got to remember, Matt, what you don't own, owns you.
00:24:44
Speaker
And it was a real moment. I thought, yeah, that really makes a lot of sense because it's operating in the background without your awareness. So you're behaving in a certain way or a number of different ways off the back of these disowned selves, as it were. And it's only when you shine the light on them that you start to become, like you said, you raise them to consciousness. So it must be when you think about how
00:25:10
Speaker
few people probably get to experience the process that you took me through or something equivalent. These are things that are really sort of holding people back in life, aren't they? I mean, they must be really compromising the life experience for many people. Yeah, they're so deep in the unconscious that we're not even aware of it. And you know, I remember
00:25:30
Speaker
working in Sweden as a mental coach for the Swedish Golf Federation and we had a conference up there in Stockholm where they brought all of the mental coaches from around the country together and every year we had a conference and the program was headed up by Torsten Hansen and Torsten was Henrik Stenson you know
00:25:58
Speaker
a major winner and one of the best golfers on the planet was his mental coach. And so we were working there and Torsten's a military guy. And he said to us, he says, what we do when we go into before every competition is we try to make everything unknown known.
00:26:25
Speaker
And so we go in and we case out the joints and we send in the scouts and we get everything clear because we don't want any surprises. And that's like a metaphor for these disowned selves. If you don't know them and you don't own them, they're going to come up and slap you outside the face and own you. And I think that's, come back to that principle that we want to make
00:26:55
Speaker
everything that's unconscious conscious and own it and make whatever anything that's unknown known so that we can deal with it. And that's, that's the principle that you're alluding to that.
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah yeah and is it I mean my my guess is that to make everything that's unknown known is you know a lifelong process and an ongoing process and it's kind of peeling back the onion layers as opposed to something you do on a Saturday afternoon and then then you're free of all your shadow behaviors or did disown selves right because that is that true? One of the big things that we work in in cognitive behavioral sciences is making
00:27:37
Speaker
helping people get a cause for the results rather than being at effect. And so, you know, some people listening might say, well, you know, it's unconscious. So, you know, who cares? What the fuck? And other people will be saying, you know, that's controlling my communication, my behavior, my results. And I don't see the world, I see myself. So I better get clear about what's creating that.
00:28:06
Speaker
And if whatever is not working, then I better go inside and make changes so that it does work for me and improve my performance and results in life. So yeah, it's all about, where are you on that scale? Are you at cause? Are you taking responsibility or are you at effect and blaming life and people and situations and circumstances? That's the two sides of the flip side of the coin, basically.
00:28:35
Speaker
Right. It's interesting. One of the recent podcasts I did was with a guy who's a specialist in pain neuroscience and persistent pain. And he was explaining that when a patient, if a patient comes into you and the language that they're using
00:28:50
Speaker
has elements of blame in it, then it's like a little red flag to say, just be cautious with this client, they may need to have professional psychological support. If they're coming in and saying, I've got terrible pain, it's been going on for years, but I feel that with the right advice, I'll be able to come around and I'll be able to get back to
00:29:11
Speaker
playing my sport or back to a pain-free system so whatever it might be then that's good because they're taking some responsibility they seem positive about the future there's hope etc but when people come in say oh I can't believe what happened at work this person you know ran over my foot and fractured it in five places and
00:29:29
Speaker
I'm going to sue them and I'm not sure it's ever going to get better. I blame the company for not providing me with the right insurance at the right time. You listen to that kind of case history and it's like straight away a little red flag should go off to say, this person, as you say, is at effect as opposed to at cause. Very interesting. Absolutely.
00:29:54
Speaker
One of the areas that I think you've done training in, because certainly it seems to me that with some of the approaches that you used in coaching me were sort of NLP based. Now, is that something that you've actually trained in NLP or was it that really Tony Robbins and other people you've trained with used NLP style principles? Yeah, I think NLP is definitely something that I've been exposed to. And it is part of a larger field called cognitive behavioral sciences.
00:30:24
Speaker
you know, having trained in that science or art and science, it's one of the many tools in the toolbar that I've studied over the years.
00:30:39
Speaker
Yeah, so that that is one of the tools for sure. Sure, sure. Because one of the things that we teach in the check system is we teach something called zone exercises where you know, we give people exercise and the idea of a zone exercise is that it's working in rather than working out. And so the idea is that you're
00:30:56
Speaker
building energy, you're calming the nervous system, you're relaxing the person's physiology as opposed to sort of increasing that stress. But you're kind of pumping the system gently, relaxing them, moving them. And the reason it's called zone exercise is because it's based on the Ayurvedic system of chakras, which I know you've got a bit of an awareness of the chakra system. And so
00:31:19
Speaker
You know, but of course, the moment you mentioned chakra, and this is this is why we call them zones, actually, of course, it can turn people off. Some people, especially, you know, those perhaps with a more scientific background, I guess chakras are, you know, poppycock kind of thing. And so but you know, what I explain when I'm teaching about the zone exercises is that, you know, whether you want to acknowledge because there's a lot of research actually into into chakras and energy fields and so on. So it's certainly not, you know,
00:31:49
Speaker
If you look into the science behind it, there is plenty of science to support it. But nevertheless, it's not mainstream science. And so there will be resistance to those kinds of concepts. And what I explain to the students when I'm teaching them about the zone exercises is that
00:32:08
Speaker
you know what we teach is let's say someone's got an issue with feeling financially insecure or unstable and so that would be you know in the IFX system that would be the root chakra so and the root chakra happens to be in the legs and you know the pelvis kind of area and so
00:32:28
Speaker
the zone exercise you would do would be, you know, something that stimulates the muscles in that area and that gives the client a sense of stability, right? So you're giving them a kind of lived experience of stability. But also what you're doing is you're encouraging them to focus into that area to feel the stability that their legs offer them and also to use an affirmation.
00:32:52
Speaker
Um, and the affirmation obviously has to be, you know, a kind of positive affirmation, which is kind of what affirmation means. Um, but you know, rather than saying, I don't want to be in debt, you say, you know, I am, uh, abundant or I am financially secure or something like that. Um, something that's believable to them in, in a certain way or context. But the point being that they are.
00:33:14
Speaker
doing that movement, they're relaxing their nervous system, they're taking themselves down to an almost meditative state because of the repetitive nature of it and it's done slowly in time with the breathing. And by repeating an affirmation to themselves that they feel comfortable with, you know, we always say it's important for the client themselves to come up with the affirmation so it sounds like the language they would use.
00:33:39
Speaker
But they are then essentially embodying that idea into their physiology. And isn't that something that you do? I recall you doing something similar to that with me. I know it's not necessarily his own exercise kind of exact parallel, but you use that kind of technique as well of sort of embodiment of a given idea or concept or feeling.
00:34:04
Speaker
Yeah, yes. So yeah, so there is patterns in in cognitive behavioral sciences. And, you know, these these patterns are designed to create neurological change. And, you know, one of the patterns is called the mind to muscle pattern. And so, you know, there's, there's, it's well known that there is this
00:34:30
Speaker
knowing to doing gap that people know what's right or what's good for them, but they don't necessarily do it. And so how do you bridge that gap? And this particular pattern called the mind muscle pattern takes a specific principle or, um, you know, belief system or, um,
00:34:52
Speaker
thought and makes it real in the muscles themselves so that you embody it. Yeah. Because if it doesn't become part of muscle memory, or part of the neurology embedded in the neurology, then it's not going to get embodied. And that's the principle. Well, that's the result of this, this particular pattern. So yeah, I think
00:35:19
Speaker
You know, unless you create neurological change, people are not going to change. If nothing changes, mate, nothing changes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's very interesting because, you know, one of the definitions of mind, which Dan Siegel, who is a psychologist or psychiatrist, clinical psychiatrist and
00:35:38
Speaker
You know works with with an array of different specialists he and his kind of think tank of specialists Defined mind as an embodied process that regulates the flow of energy and information and so that's kind of what you're saying there isn't it is that the
00:35:54
Speaker
New concept has to be embodied. You can't just think it. It can't be, as he would say, it can't just be end sculpt, right? It can't just be in your head because mind works throughout the body and it's a flow of energy and information. And that's where these kinds of, you know, embodiment processes can be very effective.
00:36:13
Speaker
Yeah, totally. As we talked about earlier, what you believe is what you achieve. So that's a thought that you've been thinking, a belief system essentially is a thought that you've been saying yes to and affirming and reaffirming until it solidifies from a thought into a belief. Right.
00:36:37
Speaker
And so when you say yes, yes, yes to that thought, yes to that thought, then you create a belief system. And that's an embodiment process, right? Through confirmation and affirmation of thought over a period of time. So yeah, man, that's right on.
Diverse Clientele and Techniques
00:36:53
Speaker
Yeah fantastic fantastic so let's talk a bit more about how you're actually working these days and the kinds of people that you work with because you obviously mentioned that you worked in elite golf. I know you did you work with William Truebridge the diver or was he just a friend of yours I can't remember you did actual sort of consulting with him.
00:37:12
Speaker
Yes, so back in 2008, William invited me to the Long Island in the Bahamas and he had an elite group of freedivers that he was training there. And so I spent a week on the island teaching them about how to turn that mind off so that they can go deep.
00:37:30
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of find it interesting that the idea of mindfulness, which is actually also very kind of, it's becoming very popular in pain neuroscience as actually a key way to deal with persistent pain, people that really are struggling to get out of pain. One of the few things that has been found to be
00:37:52
Speaker
consistently effective is mindfulness. But I think the term mindfulness, as you explained earlier, when you're talking about high performance, is almost the exact inverse of what it is. It should be mindlessness, really, shouldn't it? Mind emptiness. Mind emptiness, yeah, absolutely. No mindness.
00:38:14
Speaker
Yes, yeah for sure. So tell us a bit more, who else have you worked with and who are you working with or what kinds of people are you working with today?
00:38:24
Speaker
So who I've worked with, I think my career now has nearly spanned 20 years. It's amazing where the time has gone. And over that time, I've worked with hundreds of individuals, helping them with breakthroughs through to moving into elite sport and elite sporting teams, and then into the corporate world.
00:38:52
Speaker
and startup world. So, you know, from corporate leaders running countries, for example, Schneider Electric is a big client of mine, and I'm currently working with them in the Nordic region. Right. And, you know, we also have a contract to work with the Bahamas Olympic Committee teaching their coaches about the mental game, which is something they're not strong on, and they want to improve that.
00:39:18
Speaker
you know, through to, you know, athletes like a Swedish equestrian rider who is aiming for the Olympics. So, yeah, it's all good and it crosses it cross crosses so business
00:39:35
Speaker
can gain a lot from learning from professional athletes and those athletes can also gain a lot from learning from professional business leaders because I work with both of them.
00:39:49
Speaker
you know there's a lot of cross-collaboration there in coaching those people or training them or consulting them. Have you got any particular standout cases where you kind of look back and think that was just an amazing turnaround or you know we really achieve what that person wanted to achieve or more than that person wanted to achieve. Can you think of any examples that you'd point to?
00:40:13
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. You know, there was early on, you know, when when there was a lady who came to me who just hated flying. Right. And so she hadn't been to see her son in Spain. He was living in Spain. She was living in Sweden at the time.
00:40:33
Speaker
And so she came and she had this terrible phobia of flying and we spent like a couple of sessions and in two hours we completely blew out her phobia.
00:40:45
Speaker
Wow. And she was like, I'm going to go test this because we tested it. We tested it so hard in the room, right? In the room. But then, right, I'm confident to go get on a plane. And I got a postcard from Spain. Oh, wow. Yes, she was there. And I was like, wow. And so to have an experience like that where you can really increase the quality of someone's life.
00:41:11
Speaker
That was very memorable for me because that was early in my career. And then in the context of business, helping someone to move from being a transactional leader where they're used to being an authoritarian and not so people focused into totally turning that around and becoming a transformational leader.
00:41:35
Speaker
where they become more of a people person, more of an expert in leading people and understanding how people work and helping them to become a practical psychologist basically so that they and then learning how to get shit done through people basically rather than them having to
00:41:56
Speaker
feel like it's all up to them. And that was also a massive quality of life because a change for them meant that this person could spend more time with their family, could spend more time, have more time. And to me, that's the definition of wealth.
00:42:13
Speaker
Yes. Discretionary time. Isn't that Alan Weiss? Alan Weiss. Alan Weiss. Yeah. Love him. So, you know, Alan has been a mentor of mine and I took that principle on. I was like, right. So, hear that, you know. Yeah.
Ethics and Value in Consulting
00:42:29
Speaker
What does he say? Wealth is discretionary time or something like that. Is that a phrase? Yeah, really. Free time. Free time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was discretionary time? You can create the wealthier you get and definitely that's Alan's quote.
00:42:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we crossed paths, like I say, probably about 15 years ago, but you had come across the Czech training at some point, hadn't you? Were you in Sweden at the time when you first heard about Paul? Yeah, okay. So what was the deal there? Yeah, so I was working
00:43:01
Speaker
I had two companies, one was a coaching company and the other one was a Q-Link, which was a pendant to that, you know, world-class golfers were using to help them stay present and, you know, switch off their minds and, you know, it was a tool that people would wear to help them. Yeah. And a lot of elite athletes were wearing them.
00:43:30
Speaker
So I started up Q-Link Sweden and I was up at the weightlifting company in Aleko. I was up in Aleko and I think you were holding a training there.
00:43:51
Speaker
I was going to ask, because I remember Sven Gore and Ericsson having one of those Q-links and it being in the press, and who got that to him, do you know? Probably us, I have no idea. Yeah, I was going to say, because you know, you're in Sweden, right? He's Swedish.
00:44:08
Speaker
He was living in the UK at the time. I think he was manager of England. He was, yeah. He probably bought it in the UK or I'm not sure, but we ran with that in the marketing for sure. We took that and ran with it.
00:44:26
Speaker
Yeah, so how did you end up in the UK? Well, what was it? So you're in Sweden, you're running the Q-Link and you're coaching business. Obviously, we crossed paths at LACO and you became aware of Paul Chek's work. Correct. Then you ended up in England. How did that happen? Yeah, so that was a paradigm shift that I went through in my life. You could say one chapter ended and another chapter started.
00:44:50
Speaker
And it was after doing some serious work on myself, you know, I had created relationships in my life that weren't working. And I got to the end of that and I said, yeah, I'm done with this. So I at that point went into a week long workshop in Holland and worked deeply on my inner game. And two weeks later,
00:45:20
Speaker
I met my wife. Wow. Wow. Amazing. Amazing. So you created the inner shift and the outer shift. That's right. And so 10 years later we're happily married and I moved to the UK and then five years later we moved to the Bahamas. So I've been living in the Bahamas for five years and
00:45:43
Speaker
Is it five years now? Wow, that's incredible. But so it just so happened that you moved to your wife's house, which was within a mile or two where I was working. That was bizarre, wasn't it? It was. I moved to the UK. I had no idea. And I thought, I need to find out. I need to find Matt for some reason. So I'm in dorking.
00:46:07
Speaker
And I look you up and you're in dorking. And I'm like, what the fuck? And I just couldn't believe it. So, you know, sometimes life has interesting.
00:46:19
Speaker
creation like that. Yeah, twists and turns. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And then obviously, so we've worked together on a number of different clients. And, you know, so tell me a bit more about the value that you see in that kind of interaction between what we what I do and what you do. Yeah, so, you know,
00:46:42
Speaker
What we do together, the collaboration between you and I is when working with executives at the top level or founders and startups, we are deeply assessing the person before creating a development plan for them.
00:47:05
Speaker
And part of that, and I really believe strongly in this, is that the health of that person affects their performance. And I've worked with you for years. You've been my personal health consultant for years. And so through that, I've learned a lot about myself and my health and how to get the best out of myself physically.
00:47:27
Speaker
And so we use your services obviously to assess their health and make sure that we bring that to their awareness and this is what's going on that you may not be aware of. You might have these symptoms but here's the causes of those symptoms and then we add that into the development plan for them to take responsibility for that and bring it into balance.
00:47:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So one of the things I think that is fairly unique about the Czech approach, which is obviously how I practice, is that it assesses physiological load or the overall stress, physiological stress on the system. And, you know, to me, where our work fits really neatly is that people kind of need a bit of space and a bit of energy to be able to make transformations.
00:48:22
Speaker
And when they're bored, it is the idea is, you know, does your cup runneth over? Because if you've got too much to do, too much on, you don't just don't have the energy and the time. How do you fit in the space to make the changes and do the work? Because a lot of your work is quite, you know, in depth, isn't it? People have questioners to fill in and they have, you know, homework to do and various drills to work through and so on and to contemplate.
00:48:48
Speaker
I think when people are so tired that they don't have the energy for that, then they can get caught, can't they? And so the thing is that if we can work to unload the system by just tweaking the diet, just getting a bit more sunlight, getting a bit more sleep, whatever it might be, working with nutrition and lifestyle factors, then that gives them a bit more space to work on, as you say, the inner game and the energy to sort of follow through on it.
00:49:19
Speaker
Have you noticed if there's, have you had people that have kind of had a bit of a shift by transforming the way that they live in terms of diet and lifestyle, that kind of thing? Totally. So one of the biggest challenges that we have with executives in the corporate world or founders of startups is their well-being.
00:49:43
Speaker
and founders and startups fail because leaders fail to take care of their wellbeing. And if the leader is wellbeing is compromised, then the company is compromised. And that doesn't matter if you're running a country for a multinational or if you're starting up your own business and one year into it. So your health and wellbeing has to become
00:50:11
Speaker
number one, and so stress, the impact of negative stress on the system, and I've seen it all from people being burnt out and hitting the wall in hospital to people with different conditions, health conditions brought on by stress over many years.
00:50:37
Speaker
Yeah, you've got to help those leaders to take responsibility for their health and their wellbeing and that's the key, I think, too.
00:50:52
Speaker
on the physical side, because, you know, the way that we work is, you know, working physically, mentally, you know, technically, tactically, and socially, like working with a professional athlete, we there's no difference in working with a professional leader, compared to working with a professional athlete, they're, they're all it's all about performance. And yeah, yeah, the physical side is super important.
00:51:21
Speaker
Yeah, because one of the things that attracted me into the Czech system, because of course I trained as an osteopath and a naturopath originally, and I love the training and I love working in that way, but when I saw Paul Czech speak, what really struck me straight away is that
00:51:38
Speaker
What the check system really does is it gives the client the tools to get themselves better as opposed to it being that they become dependent on you as their therapist or their treatment provider. And so, again, you're kind of working at cause rather than at effect.
00:51:54
Speaker
you're getting right to the core of it and preventing health challenges as opposed to waiting for someone to break down and then trying to fix them up. So it just strikes me that that's very congruent with the way that you're working and that's why it gels so nicely together. I think you're right there. It's about, we say it in a similar way, coaching yourself out of a job.
00:52:24
Speaker
So you're not creating a dependent relationship. You're creating an independent relationship where you're empowering the person. And so the work that you're going to do with that person has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And at that time, you set them free to go off and be an example of what they've learned and created.
00:52:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. But I think that's quite a serious point. I know it's kind of tongue in cheek where you said coaching yourself out of a job. But I think some people do have, whether it be a conscious concern or perhaps an unconscious concern, that if I give this person the tools and they don't need to come back and see me, I'm losing my client base. But that's really not how it works, is it? So how have you kind of framed that for yourself in your own way? Well, I spent time
00:53:21
Speaker
You know with the principle of you if you want to be the best then go and hang out with the best and so you know having studied cognitive behavioral sciences and self actualizing psychology and then Taking that and studying coaching
Training and Business Model Evolution
00:53:37
Speaker
meta coaching, which is, which is coaching, created by two of the top cognitive behavioral scientists in the field. And, and so, you know, it was a very rigorous, rigorous coaching program.
00:53:53
Speaker
And then from there I decided, well, I really want to learn more about consulting. So I looked up Ellen White's and studied value-based fees and switched my business model from an hourly rate and a daily rate to a value-based rate.
00:54:14
Speaker
And yeah, this is fascinating. Yeah, go and tell us more about that. Yeah. And so that was a paradigm shift in in the in my business because I you know, I doubled my income in that first year. Right, right. And the the principle around it is, is it's all about ethics, because as a consultant, if you are charging an hourly rate,
00:54:40
Speaker
then you're really, everything is designed to charge more out. Right, yeah, you see that in law cases, don't you, that kind of thing the whole time that they can string it out longer, they get paid more. Correct. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, ethically, it's not ethical really to charge an hourly rate to a client.
00:55:03
Speaker
and say that basically it's in the consultant's best interest to charge an hourly rate, not in the client's best interest. Recharging project-based fees and having an agreement of what the investment costs and then
00:55:24
Speaker
working out the investment on a return, return on investment of one to 10. Then, you know, which is a great return on investment. You're basically coming to an agreement with your client that this is a fair, fair win-win. And, and it's ethical. And then you work as a consultant
00:55:44
Speaker
Based on hitting the objectives hitting the targets with that client as quickly as you can So that they get a great return on investment and and and they don't have to worry about hours or counting hours it's all becomes focused on how do we hit these goals and And basically I work with a client until those goals are hit
00:56:05
Speaker
and we have measures that we create together to tick those goals off. And that's a win-win-win for everyone and then basically it's the responsibility of the consultant to then hit those objectives which you agree on together and the measures which measure how we know that the objectives have been achieved and the faster those objectives are achieved the better it is for everyone. And so it's an ethical way of working with clients and
00:56:33
Speaker
and the client doesn't ever have to come and say, you know, the client doesn't have to pay more hours and everything's
00:56:44
Speaker
There's no hours being counted, basically. It can be budgeted for, etc. Yeah, that's fantastic. And also, you know, it puts the onus on you a fair bit, doesn't it? I mean, you can't be Billy Bullshit. You've got to actually, you know, be confident that you can deliver. That's correct.
00:57:04
Speaker
And so, you know, how did you feel going into that way of working? Because I imagine I would be a bit nervous going into that. But did you feel confident going straight in or did you, you know, did you hit any challenges as you went into that way of working?
00:57:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think failure is a good way to learn. But when you're being walked through it with a mentor who essentially created that system and has been working in that way for 20, 30 years and has written the book on the subject.
00:57:39
Speaker
Uh, then it supports you in, uh, you know, getting the skills and feeling more confident and, um, understanding the principles and the theory around it. Um, yeah, you know, there is, there was challenges and teething, uh, teething pains at the start, but you know, now, now I'm quite confident actually. Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:03
Speaker
Fantastic, fantastic. So other than the value based fees, are there any other kind of ways that you would delineate yourself from the sort of standard performance coach? Do you have techniques or an array of different skills that are somewhat different?
00:58:20
Speaker
Yeah, so I think first and foremost, I would call myself more of a consultant nowadays and then have in there the tools of training, having been trained as a trainer's trainer. So being a qualified trainer,
00:58:40
Speaker
in cognitive behavioral sciences, and then also being a qualified, certified coach in in cognitive behavioral sciences. So, and then we have the health, the health, all the health knowledge that that I've learned from you and bringing you in there. Yeah, we're working
00:58:59
Speaker
on a number of factors. And then I think the cognitive behavioral sciences is complemented with mind versus no mind. And so I think that's a unique perspective that I bring to coaching is how do we know that in elite sport when you hit that zone or that place where everything just flows, that peak performance is achieved. And so how do we bring that into the business world?
00:59:26
Speaker
And how do you flow and how do you hit the zone and how do you self-actualize, not just in sport, but in life and in your career. And I think that's definitely a unique aspect. And then the tools we bring in to assess our clients are critical.
00:59:49
Speaker
you know there's a tool called fingerprint for success that we use and there's been a study some studies completed by fingerprint for success as part of a master's degree which now proves as part of this the founder's degree that there is a correlation between mindset and success in business right and so this tool measures 48
01:00:18
Speaker
of your attitudes and motivations that in the context of your career and then benchmarks it against world's best practice of people who have started businesses and exited up to $1 billion or who have scaled the business over 10 to 15 years and built that into a multi-million even billion dollar business. So the study was completed on those
01:00:48
Speaker
the benchmarking was completed on those and you can compare your mindset to best practice mindset whether you're a founder or a co-founder or a leader of a multi-national. And then see what are your strengths mentally and what are your blind spots mentally and then how can you leverage your strengths for greater performance and how can you bridge those gaps. I think there's a number of unique things that we're doing.
01:01:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And then you haven't, you've also done training with Alberto Veoldo, who's, is he a psychologist or a psychiatrist? I forget what his background is. An anthropologist. An anthropologist. Okay, okay. But so, you know, he,
01:01:35
Speaker
is an interesting character. I've read a number of his books and they're fascinating and it kind of links back into what we were talking about with the chakra system earlier because he works with that, doesn't he? And a lot of kind of more indigenous practices, but he integrates them with modern day psychology as well, from what I understand from what I've read of him. But you've done some training with him and
01:01:55
Speaker
I remember you telling me a story about Disney and how he went in and worked with Disney and combined the different approaches that he utilizes to really create a shift in an organization like that. Definitely.
Holistic Consulting Approach
01:02:15
Speaker
There's different phases in my development that I've been through and I noticed that I was attracted
01:02:23
Speaker
You could say that I'm in my career that I've developed from being a scientist into more of a philosopher. You could say that there's two parts of
01:02:40
Speaker
There's two sides of myself that I work with. One is the mind and one is no mind. One is science and one is philosophy or spirituality. So those two dynamics, the yin and the yang, are dancing with each other.
01:03:01
Speaker
And it's all about results. But basically, in my journey, I'm interested in getting results. And so I've gone and sourced the people that get results. And after learning and becoming skilled in one field, then I
01:03:22
Speaker
Was looking for what what what next really? Yes, Alberto, you know was it came into my life in 2008 just before I went to the Olympics in Hong Kong I was working with a Swedish equestrian rider at that time. Yeah. Yeah and You know, he he was
01:03:46
Speaker
He was an anthropologist or is an anthropologist who spent time in South America and then learned quite a bit about shamanism from spending time with the native tribes down there. And so he brought back some of that information and created
01:04:04
Speaker
with permission, a training system with his company called the Four Winds. And so I trained with him in some of his top trainers, like Jeanette Mantel, who lives in Stockholm in Sweden, and Chris, who lives here in the UK. What's Chris's last name again? Walter. Yes, Chris Waters. And so this tool
01:04:33
Speaker
works with the energetic system very much like with the chakra system like we've been talking about and it's an amazing tool for healing and for helping create change in people's lives and it's not something I bring into the business world
01:04:54
Speaker
working with business leaders because not everyone is open to that but it's there and it's a tool in the toolbox and when needed it comes out to be applied in the right time, the right place to get results basically.
01:05:12
Speaker
For sure, for sure. I mean, it reminds me of a quote that I put in a paper from Houston, Houston Smith, who is one of the sort of great world theologians. And he, he explains that, you know, he says our mistake was expecting science to provide us with a worldview, where we now see it only provides us with half the world, its physical, calculable, testable, significantly controllable half.
01:05:40
Speaker
And I think, you know, that's kind of important to understand in as much as, I think, especially in business and, you know, in fields which are considered rational, then
01:05:57
Speaker
as Smith is saying, you know, it's a mistake to see it as purely objective because the other half of the coin, the other side of the coin is the subjective, right? And that's kind of what you're saying, I think, with the mind and the no mind and, you know, with, you know, perhaps the conscious and the unconscious. And it feels to me like if we want to
01:06:20
Speaker
only work with double-blind randomized controlled trials, then we're only working with a very small fraction, certainly no more than half of what we can work with. And, you know, as I think you've alluded to, a lot of what creates change in people is their emotions and it's the subjective things, the things that bring them alive as opposed to the figures on the spreadsheet. Yeah, totally.
01:06:47
Speaker
Does that make sense to you? Absolutely. And in cognitive behavioral sciences, as it's clearly understood in psychology that there is a conscious mind and there is a subconscious or unconscious mind, and then there is the super conscious mind. And this is the three selves that are part of us.
01:07:16
Speaker
you know, really, you know, the conscious mind is like the parent. Yeah. Running the, you know, giving instructions to the unconscious mind, which is really the doing mind. So you've got the thinking mind, the conscious mind, the doing mind, yet is the unconscious mind in charge of all learning change and behavior.
01:07:39
Speaker
And the child will do what the parent says, basically. It is there to, you know, perform behaviors and get results. And then you've got the super conscious mind, which is kind of like the observer. The presence.
01:08:03
Speaker
presence. Yeah. Yeah. And so in psychology, you know, you've got those, but you know, in religion, you have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Yes. Yes. And so, you know, ultimately, you know, in religion, what they're talking about is what correlates to in psychology is as the three cells or the Holy Trinity. Yeah. In religion. So
01:08:28
Speaker
I'm just being straight up with you right here that we have these three selves and the relationship between the three will determine a lot about the results that you get in your life. We work with the whole self and there's no buts or qualms about it. These three selves exist and we do our best to work with the whole self, not just
01:08:55
Speaker
the individual conscious or subconscious. Yeah, right, right, right. And so, yeah, that sounds, I mean, I've not fully studied transactional analysis, but that is essentially the transactional analysis model, I take it, is already slightly different.
01:09:12
Speaker
I don't know, mate. Yeah, that's right. So the transactional analysis model is, you know, is the idea that you've got the parent, the child, and then the adult, right. And so the adult is the one that kind of takes the responsibility, the parent is the one, as you say, making the rules, and the child is at the parent's command. And, you know, one of the things I've written about in some of my papers and talks about is the notion that
01:09:40
Speaker
The medical system is very much based on the parent-child relationship. So you've got the doctor or the surgeon or the specialist who's the parent and the patient who's the child. And so I make the point, if we want people to behave like adults,
01:09:56
Speaker
then we better not talk to them like children, right? Otherwise they're going to behave like children, right? I mean, if you tell people what to do and you kind of instruct them as opposed to coaching them, then you're going to dig yourself or dig them into a hole. And so then if you look at that motif, because it's the same kind of motif that obviously you're using with your conscious, unconscious and super conscious.
01:10:25
Speaker
What you see is that the whole of society, particularly a society like the UK or the European societies that have for a couple of thousand years had
01:10:42
Speaker
a Christian belief system underpinning it. And so essentially a monotheistic motif, again, or belief structure. And so what that does is it puts the parent into the sky. As you just said, the father, God's the father, he's in the sky. He's outside of you. He's someone else. He's got power over you. And he tells you what to do. He's got his 10 commandments. But the problem is that if that's
01:11:10
Speaker
the underlying motif that is playing in people's unconscious, then that's how they tend to behave in their lives. And so they behave in a disempowered way, they don't believe that they can make change. And, you know, I feel that that's a really kind of key aspect of this blockage that people have between knowing and doing, as you alluded to earlier. Yeah, excellent.
01:11:37
Speaker
Yeah. Fantastic. Well, look, I know it's getting late at night and I know that you're busy moving house, so thank you for taking the time out to do the interview with me. Really, really appreciate that. So, I'm going to let you go to bed.
01:11:52
Speaker
But before you do that, before you do that, I want you to just let people know where they can find out more about you. Because actually one thing we didn't mention is your book. Do you want to mention the book briefly? Oh, yes, sure. So The Evolutionary Leader, Five Steps to Dramatically Develop People and Performance. That's on Amazon.
01:12:11
Speaker
Yeah, and you can find it there and of course I'm I'm personally on LinkedIn and Timothy Carroll and then of course we have a website which is carolconsultancy.com and a newsletter that goes out every Thursday called Timothy's thought for Thursday, which you can sign up on When you join your website When you see that so we're there and be lovely to see you
01:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, brilliant. Well, I put all these links on the show notes so people will be able to access them if they want to find out more. So that's at MattWarden.com. You'll see the podcast tab and the show notes tab there. So yeah, just if you want to get a direct link to those and all the spellings correct, then it will be there on the website. But Timothy, thank you so much for your time. I would love to dive in deeper with you at some point, again, down the line or in the future.
01:13:09
Speaker
So let's do it again. And yeah, I'm looking forward to next time our paths cross. Thanks mate. Look forward to it too. Thanks for the opportunity. That's a pleasure. All right. Take care buddy. Bye-bye buddy. Bye-bye.
01:13:24
Speaker
Thanks for joining us again on FC2O. Well, I hope you enjoyed Timothy's insights as much as I did. If you loved it and you know someone who would enjoy it too, please do drop them a line and tell them where to find us. To find Timothy, head over to his website at carolconsultancy.com, where you can also subscribe to his excellent newsletter, which has lots of great weekly tips. Or you can also get a copy of his book, The Evolutionary Leader, on Amazon.
01:13:53
Speaker
Next week, I'm interviewing one of my biggest inspirations and mentors, the deeply wise and always insightful Phil Beach, osteopath, acupuncturist and author of the amazing book, Muscles and Meridian's The Manipulation of Shape. If you want to keep informed of upcoming podcasts, then sure you subscribe or follow us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Stitcher. Thanks for listening to the show.