Transcript
Speaker: I've heard that the the important like mile marker of podcasting for success is 21 episodes, which we're going to go over that in these two seasons, which is pretty cool.
Speaker: I mean, success? Yeah, like the number of podcasts that actually reach 21 episodes is like 2%. two percent Most people don't last. They don't stay they don't stick to it. like Yeah, they don't stick to it. right Like us. Like two homeless guys on a street corner. We're like, the bus is going to come sooner or later.
Speaker: but i tell you what, that bus is going to your 80-minute rush. We'll be fine. Where you going? You're going nowhere. We are going nowhere. oh we are going somewhere. Upwards.
Speaker: Oh,
Speaker: okay. Did you get my birthday gift? Oh, open it. Yes, open it right now.
Speaker: from yeah rush from rush with from db club's home office oh geez you even wrapped it those was nice yeah i wrapped it when my family and my family members don't rather they just will drop out of operations i think i'm running no i'm a true friend true friends rap yes
Speaker: this ah This makes me happy. i don't I don't think I can remember the last time I opened a gift. Seriously. Wow. Yeah, well, glad to.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: For our listener, what does it say?
Speaker: hardic How to fix anything home repairs anyone can do. How to fix anything. Yeah. All right. That's the first part of your gift. This actually is very interesting. have to admit it.
Speaker: Thank you. Yeah, it's going to be interesting. Open the second part of your gift. Two boxes in the in the priority mail envelope.
Speaker: It's a gift that gives back to me, maybe. Listen, that's an old iPod from 2004. It doesn't work.
Speaker: And I'm going to need you to fix it.
Speaker: let's let's break it Let's break it down. Let's analyze it. Why is that such a funny gift? That's a funny gift because it doesn't matter what order you open it in. The second gift is the punchline.
Speaker: If you had opened it in the opposite order, it would have been just as funny.
Speaker: This is so good. It's like, fix this. Happy birthday. i I might need your iPod. Have you booted it up No, it doesn't come on. That's why I need you to fix it. i don't know what's on it. What do you mean it doesn't come on? like When you plug it in, it doesn't come on?
Speaker: Happy birthday. Thank you. Now fix it.
Speaker: Joe, listen. joe listen Hey, I got you something else for your birthday.
Speaker: I got you a lie. So I, all the times I was telling you that this was going to be the judge This is not the judge. And this is going to be so cool for both What are talking about? Are you being serious? What's happening? I give on your birthday the most interesting person in the world.
Speaker: Who? Bebo Norman. No, shut up! Bebo Norman. No way! No way! na ah way Bebo Norman!
Speaker: Holy smokes. Bebo, I was telling I was no kidding you. I was telling my friend Ryan. um We were... It was... ah Like my heart rate is... Look at the my heart rate. the ah that I was talking to my friend Ryan and we were talking about the podcast, whatever. And ah and I go, yeah, blah, blah, blah. And in man, I lost my mind. He goes, what? I go, yeah, this a he was in the small group. And what guess who's in the small group? And I said, Bebo Norman. And he lost his mind. it was so great. That's hilarious. That's funny. Yeah, because in my life.
Speaker: your music was a vibe that that that you came on the scene you came on the scene ah just in a very very memorable season in my life and ah your music your music was hitting a vibe that that was before it became a vibe. And I just like, and we just dug it a ton. So it's super cool to have you on the show. can't even, I can't even tell how happy that makes me.
Speaker: And the plan was not for me to be driving in my car right now, by the way. um I messed up the time zones. And so, Here I am. I'm calling at, you know, in central time. And so, yeah, I'm so, okay. So, okay. So tell me a little bit, tell me a little bit about what is, what does life look like for you right now? What, what's kind of the scope of it What does it feel like to be you?
Speaker: Well, it's totally different. um I mean, very, very different, but in beautiful ways. um I tell ah ah ah work now.
Speaker: I retired. You know, it's been, this is what's crazy. I retired from music. It's been almost 13 years ago now. Wow. When I retire from music. um Retired when my two boys were six and four, and they are now 19 and 17.
Speaker: Wow. And so my world, but when I retired from music, my plan was to do anything that didn't require going back to school. I what was going to take time off. I was going to have some some you know real estate stuff that I that i did.
Speaker: And long and short, i ended up going back to school, which is kind of funny. um And so I work as a PA in the medical world now. So I got my master's.
Speaker: and circled all the way back to medicine, which and never was my plan. But that's what I studied in college. I was planning to go to planning to go to medical school when I graduated from college, but I took a year off to mess around with music.
Speaker: And it turned into 20 years messing around with music. So, yeah, so kind of crazy. That is crazy, man. We are so glad that we were able to do this. As ah you know, we talked in the very first episode with Alan Levi.
Speaker: And there was this moment where your name comes up for some reason. and Joe and I have another, we have a million of these, but another... instant connection take us back to just really important ah times in our lives, our Christian lives. i mean, i I have people in my church now, young guys that have ah you know heard your music and it's having a similar kind of effect.
Speaker: And ah and as it has on on me. So I, we got to get the fan boy stuff out of the way. Cause we're really, it's about so much more than that. that yeah Yeah. Nice warm warmm hugs. suits Yeah. So tell me, I'm feeling all, I'm feeling all the warm hugs. I love it. So, yeah so tell me, tell me, um, kind of in, what is it, what are some of the things right now in your life that,
Speaker: that you would just say are, are bringing some real joy. And what are a couple, what are a couple right now that are just like, yeah, this is something that I'm thinking through or wrestling through, or what is what's in your head space right now?
Speaker: Well, that's a, that's a loaded question and in great ways. Um, but I love loaded questions, but, um, I would say the last, the,
Speaker: life in retirement for music has not been what I anticipated it to be. and there's a, there's a long list of reasons for that. Um, and in certain ways it has been richer and more beautiful than I could have imagined. And in others, it's been more heartbreaking than I ever could have imagined. It doesn't have to do with not being in music. It just has to do with life being life, you know? yeah And so i have experienced, um,
Speaker: great loss in the last 10 years that I never saw coming. um And I've experienced great joy in the last 10 years that I never saw coming. So to kind of answer your question,
Speaker: um i a little more specifically, i ah i think the joy that I find right now is in the simplicity of, and this will circle back to Alan Levi, honestly, but it is in the simplicity of longstanding,
Speaker: ah God-centered, beautiful people foundational life-changing relationships. I mean, truly. And and and and a a few. yeah you know i lived i lived a life in music where i I knew a lot of people for a long time i mean for in that career. and And that was not a bad thing. I did not leave music with a bad taste in my mouth at all.
Speaker: I left because I wanted to be with my boys yeah predominantly, among among others some other reasons. um But I have... have My life is so much smaller now go in the most beautiful ways i can I can even explain to you. I used to say so for example i used to say from stage a lot.
Speaker: I did i talk spoke on behalf of Compassion International for years and years and years. and And in the context of that and in the context of other things, I used to say from stage that um you know Jesus, the way he formed ministry was...
Speaker: most of his time spent with a very small handful of people. And then it kind of went in concentric circles outward from there. But the vast majority of his time was spent with a handful of people.
Speaker: um And the vast minority of his time was spent speaking to large crowds, right? And so I used to say from stage all the time that we we don't need a stage or a pulpit to do the work but ah jesus dos the work of Christ.
Speaker: we need a conversation, a relationship, whatever it is, um, a community. um and so Alan Levi, for example, embodies that and how he kind of lives his life. sure In my life, the thing that brings me the most joy right now are a few small, not simple, but beautiful relationships that,
Speaker: God has sustained in my life in ways that I could not have anticipated. Are those relationships that have long-term? These are people that you have been friends with for a long time that court sort of stayed with you through the through the losses, the ups and downs? Are they more small group that came along through those downs? Right. you know what are what's that so great It's a great question.
Speaker: For the most part, um they are long-standing relationships. where there's, there's, you know, the cream kind of rose to the top when life hit some hard bottoms for me. And so, um and they were life sustaining and ah they were comforting, but they also spoke truth. And, and so those relationships have been longstanding and they've been beautiful and have felt encircled by those, but there've been a few, a handful
Speaker: um not even a handful, less than a handful that have come out of this season of life. um And probably because of this season of life that have been really rich and life-giving too. So yeah, so both, but I would say predominantly longstanding relationships. So, so here's a question because having friends, um,
Speaker: having friends, the the richness of that. And to be honest with you, people, that the only reason why Rush and I do this podcast is because it's just an excuse for us to hang out and to meet people. So thanks for thanks for giving Rush and I a chance to as because i think about as I think about relationships a lot, actually,
Speaker: What would you say are the decision points that happen in somebody's heart when they're going to decide, you know what, I'm actually going to i'm actually going to invest and move move beyond in-depth in relationship with you versus you know taking whatever sort of reasonable...
Speaker: reasonable way to maybe disconnect over time. There there's there is something that happens in a person's heart that says, okay, I'm actually going to not ah not only move through, but I'm going to lean in and I'm actually going to make the commitment to this particular friendship. What is it what is it in your heart or as you as you've experienced that, that you feel like people, what are the decision points? What are the crossroads? Because not everybody makes that choice, right?
Speaker: Right, right. No, for sure not And I will say, to be to be fair, there is some practical sense to it, yeah to some degree, right? In the sense that life running in concentric circles and and things like that. However, um the predominance of, I've got a really great and small community here in Nashville,
Speaker: that um that has larger concentric circles too from my past, right? Which is great. And I run into people a lot at, you know, events or parties or dinners. And I see old friends from music that used to be very, we used to do life all the time together that we don't anymore. And so life is not, and we just haven't had that, that um yeah, hadn't been congruous like that or Congress like that. I think, um so there's some of that, the,
Speaker: and I've got a good core in Nashville, but the, I've got a good number of like pockets of relationships that are in different parts of the country, probably similar to you guys sure in the sense that ah we have lived life at certain seasons of life together in the same space.
Speaker: And then life took us in different directions and we have made, and and that's a, it's a really good question. I'm trying to think this through as I'm, as I'm speaking it, because,
Speaker: We have made a choice, a conscious choice, some of it just out of genuine affection, but some of it out of just pure selfishness because I need this person in my life to maintain certain relationships when others sort of naturally ran their course, right? And so um i think some of that too you know, as a 53 year old man now, right.
Speaker: i I, realized my, I have a certain level of capacity yeah and I can, I spent a lot of years and I still struggle with this to some degree, feeling pulled in a lot of different directions.
Speaker: Um, and I think what the last 10 years has done for me is, um, it has forced me to simplify and that has forced me to kind of,
Speaker: go, okay, who do i who do I need? Selfishly, who do I need? yeah And then completely outside of my own decision-making, God has managed to infiltrate a number of relationships, newer relationships in my life that I didn't know I needed, that I needed more than I ever yeah could have imagined.
Speaker: Yeah. It's interesting that you talk about newer relationships too, because I'm, I'm writing and thinking on just the skill, the skill and the need for making new friends. Yeah.
Speaker: that because i was there was a there's a dynamic where uh someone who was talking with said you know joe you talk about friendship and i had i had one friend and he died you know and so there's just this sense of like the the craft and the skill of enjoying enjoying and investing in long-term friendships, but then also keeping fresh in the dynamic of making making newer friends and the skill of that. And it's and it's interesting because you know when you're you know when you're in your 50s, the context isn't like you know that you're both on the same soccer team you know or you're the ground. Right, right.
Speaker: And so right for it not to be transactional, because there's so many transactional relationships that I have in my life, that the ability to develop transformational relationships that you're talking about is kind of a newer skill.
Speaker: Man, i love that you just used that word, transactional. um To be completely frank, that has been, that one in my experience has And it's going sound harsh. I don't mean it this way, but it has narrowed the playing field for me because i um I'm done with transactional relationships. Yep. You know, i'm really I really am. And I don't mean that. I'm sorry. I'll put my take my sunglasses off so I don't, you know, um look like I'm trying to be a rock star, right? No, that's okay. No, I just, I don't think that we, as we get older, have the space for, I don't have the space for that in my life. don't.
Speaker: By nature, there's going to be give and give and receive. That's going to happen. But when it becomes transactional, at its core or you realize it kind of is at its core.
Speaker: yeah um To me, i just don't have the, I don't have the space for that in my heart anymore. And, and those relationships, kind of broke my heart, to be honest with you. yeah And we're part of some of the hard seasons that I've been in, and, or hard things that I've gone through. And so, um, I love the idea of them being transformational and, and sometimes we, yeah, I think, I think maybe that's part of the process that you were asking about where you go, okay, well, how do you determine who is going to be, one of those few that, that you're in relationship with, but
Speaker: The idea of it being transformational as opposed to transactional would be a key part of that in my estimation. so It's interesting. I love to use that word. It's interesting. I think there there are very few kind of heartbreaking moments when you have a friend that you thought was a transformational friendship and you realize that in the end...
Speaker: that it was just you know transactional. There was something that I gave to them and i couldn't give that to them anymore or there was another thing. and so then you know it was It was different than that. and It's so amazing how God's made us as image bearers in relationship and how we can enjoy and even the pain and the hurt of that just reflects the fact that God has made us for relationships and so right that's why right when when Alan was talking about that he was investing in these friends and you know they were being really thoughtful and again Alan's very thoughtful about relationships too which I really enjoyed and then ah when he mentioned your name that's when I lost my mind.
Speaker: If you're going to say something I can tell you got that question face. Yeah, I keep raising my finger like this. I know, I know, i'm I know. This is your birthday. It's your birthday gift. I know, I know.
Speaker: is it Is it actually your birthday? My birthday is on Monday and I turn 53 on Monday. Hey! I know, I know, right? Come on. I mean, who who knew, right? I tell you, making 53 happen.
Speaker: Just a couple of three-year-olds hanging out with a young guy like me. yeah you know how now how old are you? 49. Oh, you are lot. I'm not that much younger. A mere babe. Just a mere babe.
Speaker: um Yeah, you know, and that's interesting too. like Just the dynamic of Like when I think about Alan and that group of guys, and and you mentioned something too. And sorry, Rush, I think I just, you had something to say. You held your finger up and then stole it again. It's fine. We are actively stealing your time as we speak.
Speaker: um i Alan, what he is so good at, and I think it goes towards what you were asking about with regard to making new friendships, new relationships.
Speaker: And I think this is true of that whole group of men of of each of us, but Alan probably embodies it. And certainly in in the book that Theo of Goldman, he wrote, yeah speaks to this tremendously. But i am I really mean this. And I'm not, I am profoundly interested in people's stories. And so when I meet a new person, um ah really am. i am anxious.
Speaker: I ask too many questions probably. um But I'm anxious to know. i want to know their story. And Alan, certainly, and certainly Theo in the book, is also anxious to to know people's stories. And so I think that's at the core of building new friendships is eagerness to know about the other as opposed to eagerness to tell about yourself. Absolutely. and when and And when that goes back and forth,
Speaker: where I'm eager to know and you're eager to know, then we begin to know each other. and we But we also realize, well, we're both self-giving, we're not but we're but we're receiving in that. And so it it's that's where it becomes transformational, not transactional.
Speaker: And so, um yeah, I love that. i really do. Well, Joe and I'd love to hear you say that because honestly, you you ah you probably don't know. I mean, that is beyond Joe and I spending time together on this podcast. That is what this whole thing is about. It's all about from the beginning has been an interest Yeah, sure. Anything.
Speaker: that we think man it would be really great just to hear the inner working of that person's life what does that person care about what are they and and even to you i mean i could go on and on i i do have some music questions later but really pretty sure anything I mean, that's a big part of your life, so I don't think that's ah something to shy away from. But I think that even in talking to you, the the idea, the interest ah from our conversation with Alan is not, oh, we love Bebo Neumann's music and we should talk to him, and but more like, I would love to know what the person
Speaker: ah Jeff, you know, it really, really stinks. And what is life is really like now? um So that's really what this whole thing has has been about is trying to get a better sense of how people work. What does it mean to show an interest in other people? So we really appreciate the way that you you think about that as well.
Speaker: ah Love that. Thank you. Thank you. and And Alan mentioned the same when he mentioned you guys to me right away. He said, we had a great, delightful, I think was the word he used, conversation. um And ah he said, but it was just funny that, and he used it he used used it as a springboard to give me encouragement. He just said, you know, i want you...
Speaker: I want you to realize that your music is still even all these, you know, more than a decade later, it is it's still impactful to people. And, and that, and that's, it's, it's really, I mean, this is just by random chance that this just happened, but I was just leaving my office to head home for our appointment. That's an hour from now. Right. um our podcast that Yeah, no, but, but I, um,
Speaker: ah Somebody left a note today. Someone called my office and this happens somewhat periodically. and it's just a special gift to me. Doesn't change the world.
Speaker: But someone called and said, hey, or today it was a note that someone had written and left saying, your music. played a role in my life. They're not even my patient.
Speaker: Um, but they, um, they just know I work at this practice and they left me a little note that just said this particular song had an impact in my life. Just wanted to say thank you to that. And it's just a sweet, sweet reminder. And so, news you know, y'all's conversation and the fact that my name happened to come up, uh, and, and was, was received.
Speaker: As a way to just encourage, it was was a way to encourage me because that's kind of what he does. That's good. yeah Okay. So, so since we're, since we're talking about the music stuff, so when you, you know, and you've talked about retiring a couple of times, when you, when you think back, when you think back and you reflect upon it or when people ask you, just go, what, what were your takeaways from from from that season of your life. So as you're journaling it and you're going, you know Lord, this is what, this is what you you've given to me. And this is what my takeaways were. What were, what were some of those for you after being done? Cause a lot of people don't, they go through and then they, they, um they keep going and to be able to have a season where it's marked. What were your takeaways for that season for you? like how did it, how did it change you? How did it impact you? Hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. um I mean, ah it impacted me in a myriad of ways. i mean, you know, obviously any career that we have does, that career in particular for me.
Speaker: um in so many ways, that career for me was a surprise. Like, I use this phrase often, and I think Alan and both use this phrase often, and I don't have to keep bringing him up, but he, but we...
Speaker: um I talked about being an accidental musician, you know, like, i mean, I purpose towards it for a year. That was kind of the goal. But the fact that it did what it did was so beyond what my expectations were. And I think the, the, what I, one of the things I took from that season was God's kindness in that season to me that was utterly undeserved um was,
Speaker: overwhelming and and and it just kind of kept happening and i because i i had so many friends who sort of started that music journey at the same time that i did who were infinitely more talented and i'm not saying that to be yeah like show some false humility infinitely more talented than me um ah they were better songwriters they were better musicians they were and they they fought and never quite it never quite happened you know and um and and they, so and some them are still doing it, right. They're still doing it 25, 30 years later. Um, but, uh, and, and so I just feel like I stumbled into this thing where God just said, you know what, here's what I want you for this next stretch of life. And, um, and, and in ways that was awesome, but in other ways,
Speaker: you know, where my brain can take that and where it affected me later in life was, um, I, I just thought that's the way it worked, right.
Speaker: That everything falls into place and it's just this nice, um, kind of, yeah, like my feet fell in, in pleasant places and and that was great. Um, and so I took away from that, but, but when I did leave that, that season,
Speaker: I kind of had this anticipation. Well, that's what the rest of life looks like too, right? It all just falls in place. And right, right. And so, um and it's not to say that there weren't really hard parts about playing music and and the difficulty of, you know, the life as a traveling musician and and those sorts of things.
Speaker: However, it just was rich. And I felt, I felt relationally. still to this, to this day, like when I run into some of those people that are in the, you know, the concentric, the circles that kind of widen out from my, my core at this point, it is sweetness when I run into them.
Speaker: I mean, it is, it's a reminder of these, like these, like just tarns along the way of relationship that, were just markers for me of, I can look back at them and go, God, look at that person in that season of my life, even if they're not one of the lifelongers, right? yeah um They played a instrumental role in how I was shaped and how I viewed myself, how I viewed God, how I viewed the world.
Speaker: And we, we both went our own separate ways, but the mark is still there. And if I can, if I can have a good enough memory to look back at it and see and remember um, God's, uh, provision in that season from that person.
Speaker: yeah um golly, it blows me away when that happens. And it happens pretty frequently here because I live in a town where I live in Nashville. I've known. yeah sure. Yeah. Right. now so So, so during that season, during that season, what, how would you say that you most changed and grew when you go, okay,
Speaker: boy When I started and by the time that I was done, looking back, saying, you know what, the Lord just gave me these moments of change, these moments of understanding that were maybe the highlights as you look back.
Speaker: Right. You know, I think, I mean, it feels like maybe a cop-out answer because we talked a little bit about it, but I think it's it's absolutely the first thing that I think of is that in all the...
Speaker: the things that happened that were um overwhelming to me and sweet in terms of career and music happening and playing in front of, you know, crowds that I, so I just never like to to show up and, and, and see a big crowd that, that paid money to come see you play a show.
Speaker: And then to get to share time with them that felt somehow intimate, it was all so rich and beautiful and traveling and seeing the world and, truly seeing the world countries and this country, you know, five times over.
Speaker: um i the takeaway as I walked away from music was I want life to be small. I want life to be simple.
Speaker: um And not just, I want, I think life is meant to be lived small. And I think life is meant to be lived simple. And it's not that there's not a space and a place for ah platform or a pulpit or crowds.
Speaker: But um i I yearned for it, longed for it. I had a song called Where the Trees Stand Still that I wrote ah long i mean in my when I was 24 years old um or 25, somewhere in that ballpark, ah about just as you're you know moving through life, moving as I traveled so much, everything's passing. I just wanted something then where something stood still. and And ultimately what that meant for me in my life was the simplification of community, the simplification of relationships.
Speaker: um And and it was that was what I longed for, and it's a large part of what I retired from music for. Well, let me ask you a question, Bebo, about a particular song that I have listened to a lot and I continue to listen to of yours, and it's the song Disappear.
Speaker: And there's a line in that song that resonates with me. And, ah you know, I mean, I would say, ah i'm I'm being completely honest with you. ah I have said to many people, i i don't know that there is a stronger collection of music overall from one person that is richer, better, more diverse than the collection of yours that I listen to on Spotify pretty frequently people in this song there's a line that says you become clear as I disappear it's a little bit like what you're describing in my becoming smaller me becoming smaller what I'm curious about is as you think about your life today and this is kind of blending memory and music
Speaker: Are there songs that you have written, lyrics like that, that messages from the past that that stay personally with you? i don't really know. I'm not a musician. I don't write lyrics. I don't know if that happens or if there's a separation between the two. Do you come back to songs and you you sort of counsel yourself, kind of sing to yourself in moments of a truth that was meaningful then? Hmm.
Speaker: um That is so is so funny that you asked that question because i would have said prior to retiring from music, um I would have said, no, I don't go back to, you know, because I was playing these songs every night and all that. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah It's really interesting. first time that happened, my older brother, who's four years older than me, um died about five years ago.
Speaker: And he had a heart failure suddenly. He was actually 52 when he died. So I'm 53 now. So I'm older than my older brother now. wow um And ah and i got the call that it had happened late in the evening.
Speaker: And I immediately got in my car and south to Georgia where I grew up and where where he lived. And um and i my brother was like,
Speaker: my biggest champion for music. I don't know why going to be emotional about that right now, but it, um, he from day one, was one of the first people that said, you need to, you need to play these songs for people.
Speaker: And, um, and so when I was driving down to ultimately down to his funeral, um, that I spoke at, um, I, I wanted to, I, for whatever reason i was compelled because several of the songs that and on early records of mine were written about him. I had a song called the healing song that was written about him. he had a crazy hard story, beautifully redemptive story, loved Jesus.
Speaker: Um, but had a lot of hard stuff that he walked his way through, um in life. And, uh, And so I listened chronologically to every single one of my records on that drive.
Speaker: Wow. um And had never done that before. um And I cried and I wept and i um found joy and um i was I was caught off guard. I was like, when and how and why did I write that song? It made me conjure where I was in life. And it it was like a chronicle for me um to go to relive where the song came from. And to be honest you, there some songs I can't remember where it came from. i don't know where the inspiration was. I don't know when I finished it, whatever it might be.
Speaker: um But when you ask me, you know, do i ever circle back and listen to things? I do sense them. whenever I make it a point that whenever someone mentions to me, hey, I heard this song the other day, it popped up, and um it made me think of whatever, one of my songs, I'll make myself go listen to it, just because I want to see if I can yeah find what what they kind of found in that moment.
Speaker: But one of the... One of the songs I go back to consistently, and this is, it's a newer song, at at least I say newer. It was on my last, last record called Lost Distant Cities.
Speaker: And record with my friend Gabe Scott and a guy named Ben Shive, who are like dear, dear, dear to me. um And so finishing, not knowing it was going to be my last record, but finishing that last record, it goes back to disappear to some degree.
Speaker: Because the the line the song is called At the End of Me. um And I had no idea that i when I wrote that song that I was going to be retiring from music, that I was going to be sort of ending one version of myself and to some degree and beginning a new version of of At Least Life.
Speaker: But it was At the End of Me is where you start. And and ah and it's just a song that for me... ah seen I seem to go back to it. there There are a handful of songs, especially on that last record, um that I go back to and realize that God allowed those songs to happen to minister to me 13 years later after they were written in a season of life that I never could have seen coming.
Speaker: and that I wasn't even writing the song about, you know, but maybe I was, and I just didn't know. And so that's kind of the mystery and beauty to me of songwriting. And probably the single thing I miss about playing music is that missed, cause I haven't written since then, really. I will, we can talk more about that, but i have ideas and it's kind of a random thing, but I never finish them. And, um,
Speaker: But that's probably the single thing I miss the most is the mystery of God meets a moment when a song is written in a way that attaches to a moment, maybe even in the future, that you had no idea would um would be choreographed in this in that way by that song at that particular time. So...
Speaker: So yes, is the the long answer is what I just said. The short answer is yes, I do go back to those things now. Never thought I would, but I do. No, that was good answer. That's just the kindness. That's just the kindness of the Lord to be able to, even even as I look back on old old journals that I would write in to try and write myself clear or other ways in which that, whether it be a song or even, um,
Speaker: ah different different experiences in life that that I'm able to both, um and you're reminding me of this, is that you're able to go and to understand what happened in the past, but then also now how that means to you in the present. Yeah.
Speaker: And that those things, those things the the the transcendent beauty of how god how God communicates and reveals and uses things and people to help us to be present.
Speaker: And i just... yeah the the way in The way in which that you articulated that just ah really, really resonates. and And I hope too that our listeners get a sense that, man, that ability to both honor and to think about our past ah as a part of our present.
Speaker: it's that And that gives hope and even too for for the future, that that that activity of doing those things is ah is a beautiful thing that the Lord gives us.
Speaker: You know, you had mentioned... you'd mentioned about, and it was a throwaway comment that you meant ah that, that life is meant to be lived small. What, what are, if somebody, you know, somebody's going, what are you talking about? Man, I want, I want like, I was supposed to be like, what are you talking about? The life is supposed to be little small. Like what is, what is the beauty? What is the beauty of, of, of seeking a life that is, that is small?
Speaker: Hmm. But because, well, so the beauty in it to me is that if it's small, it's focused.
Speaker: And now i don't mean focused like in a driven way. I mean, folks like in a one-on-one conversation, right? Like if you are looking someone in the eye, face-to-face,
Speaker: and having a conversation with them, and you are staying where your feet are, right? That's my it's my mantra right now is be where my feet are, and let my head be where my feet are.
Speaker: Let my heart be where my feet are, because I can tend to, and this does not distract from what you were just describing about our past being a part of where we are.
Speaker: um But I feel like we live such distracted lives and we live lives where, where, what sort of quote unquote the world or our community, what, what we tell ourselves is that we're meant to always be on the look for the future, always trying to prepare, always trying to,
Speaker: um to broaden and spread out and, and have an impact and be an influencer and whatever it may be. um and I just, him I'm just, I'm more and more convinced that being, when I walk into a room to talk to a patient, if I can stay in that room in my head and actually listen to a story and then have the chance, if they want me to, to speak into that story,
Speaker: um whether it's from a healthcare standpoint or them, surprisingly enough, talking a lot about their own life story. um It's a victory and that is living small.
Speaker: And and the the key and the challenge is how do you do it without getting distracted into, oh God, i got to go to four other patients right now or I've got to go pick up groceries on my way home or you know whatever it might be.
Speaker: um And so living small to me, means walking into a patient room and seeing the patient, seeing the person, I should say. um Living small to me means keeping my community small and not letting myself be, and sometimes that's hard because sometimes you have to make some hard decisions that with regard to where you put your time and your focus. um But my goodness, it's,
Speaker: some of that has been forced on me because of life circumstances in the last 10 years and other parts of that has been, have become a choice and, and it's a conscious choice and a daily.
Speaker: If, if I'm, if I'm at my best, at my worst, i get distracted and anxious and look forwards and sideways and backwards and do not stay where I am.
Speaker: And so, yeah. But um on my better days, see people. Yeah, that that sense of being present. And again, Matthew 6 talks about that's like a that. that you can't do anything about the past. The future hasn't happened yet. So you're able to be present and to and to engage in that that the smallness of that and the focus of that.
Speaker: That there's there's beauty in both... in both enjoying as well as the comfort knowing that there is a God who is ever present and he is in all those places. well The ability to live small is because we serve a God who is incredibly big, right? Somebody reminded me the other day of Jim Elliott's words, which are, wherever you are, be all there. You've probably heard that before. Wherever you are, be all there, which is that kind of
Speaker: that kind of presence thinking about his life of course is it is a striking striking thing i'm curious people what what does it look like do you think ah in the next 10 years between 53 and 63 for you to live small to be all wherever you are you know what is that going to look like for you what's your vision for the next 10 years everything you've been through has brought you to this point
Speaker: That's a really good question. I think one of the things... Something like being asked difficult questions about interest. I need some help, people. I'm on your way. I'm right with you. love it. Listen, these young 40-somethings, you know what I mean? All these questions from these young 40-somethings. No, I don't...
Speaker: i'll tell I'll tell you what, like I honestly, um that's ah it's a, it really is a good question because i feel like, you know, I know we have to think forward. We have yeah to plan. It's not, it's unwise to not plan to some degree, right? Right. um but But even my brother's death being so sudden and the loss of him in my life and in in my family's life, um for one, his death my my family's always been close. I've got a, I'm one of four kids.
Speaker: We all have multiple kids. I mean, i have the least at two. Um, and they, uh, there's now lots of nieces and nephews and grandkids and now great grandkids for my parents.
Speaker: Um, and we've always been close, but my brother, Chris, his, his death sort of united our family in a, like, it was a weird thing. Like we all now are on this massive group text and, And I saw my, and and just this morning, my brother's grandchild that he never met um is four years old.
Speaker: And his name's Wyatt Christopher nor or Christopher Wyatt Norman um named after my brother. And, and he's starting, you know, K4 and he's on his first day of school ever.
Speaker: And my whole family are sending pictures. My nephew, my brother's son sending pictures. um And so, sorry, it's a a little sideways in terms of the the question you asked, but um the the smallness, what happened when my brother died is it drew people into a small space together to mourn with each other, to care for each other, to love each other. And my sister-in-law, Lisa, who's a widow now, and myself have had these conversations of, well,
Speaker: she, she was like every trajectory I had myself on changed the minute my brother died. Um, or her husband died. Yeah. And, um, and she has found her feet, uh, in really beautiful ways and mourned and mourned and mourned and will probably mourn every day the loss of her husband. Um, but,
Speaker: I think I hesitate to get too forward, honestly. So when I think about 10 years from now, um yeah honestly, i really do think i am at this particular moment and this could change.
Speaker: lord Lord knows mom we all sort of ebb and flow through different seasons. But right now i am living so fervently in, Hey, I want to be, i want to see the people that are with me in front of me today.
Speaker: um I want to try to be loved and love today. um I don't know that I think much past that right now. Um, because I, you know, yeah, because life looks very different to me right now than I anticipated it would look.
Speaker: Um, and yet, There has been this crazy beauty in it that I would not have anticipated. So, so yeah, great great question. But i I think right now, at least where I am right now, um I'm waiting to make that decision on what the next 10 years looks like. um Because i I think I'm just going to make the decision on what today looks like.
Speaker: um as best i can again on my bed a ton of wisdom ton of wisdom bebo you just you're giving us such a gift to allow us to just wander through your your heart and thinking and i just for whatever it's worth just just want to say thanks for that i just i really know your ability your ability and the ease by which you've invited us to be able to listen in how you process things is uh has just been a real gift to us i i do want to and with that in mind and because we you know we gotta we gotta land the plane and uh let you get on yeah let on lets you get on to other things today but i i wanted to hear could you describe for me um your voice
Speaker: My boys. Yeah. Could you describe Describe them to me. but i want to i want to meet them I want to meet them through their father. So tell me a little bit about your boys.
Speaker: They are... the joy. I mean, they are the joy of my life. They, i mean, and, and I, they know this, I'm going to get emotional talking about They know their dad's a crier, um, for one. Um, and they, and they, and they mock me for it pretty consistently. Um, which is fantastic.
Speaker: Um, okay. Let me describe them to you. They are, um, my oldest Smith is 19. He's a rising sophomore at university of Tennessee in Knoxville.
Speaker: which it pains me to pay money to the University of Tennessee as a lifelong Georgia fan. um But i have i' have grown to love, I've grown to love, not i do love Knoxville and I love that school and it's a great place for him.
Speaker: um Smith is smart. um He is engaging. outgoing. He he is a lover of people. He loves to laugh.
Speaker: Um, he engages with people in a beautiful way. He also seems to have ah and i prayed for this for both of my boys and they both have it.
Speaker: He has this sweet, small community of people that have loved him well and that he gets to love well. Um, and he uh,
Speaker: I hate to say words like this, a self-starter. He's motivated. like he's um The thing that strikes me the most about Smith is um he is he's aware. like he His eyes are open.
Speaker: And and he he can be very pragmatic, um but he pays attention, which I love. um so And my son Miller, who is just turned 17, he's a rising junior in high school,
Speaker: ah here in Franklin, Tennessee, where I live. um Miller and Smith could not be, they're very different. Miller's less, well, I say that, he's changings he's also changing, right?
Speaker: Miller is less on the surface outgoing and engaging. But when I say that he feels things, he feels things. He feels things at his core. He's also crazy intelligence.
Speaker: He loves space. um He loves, he wants to be an astrophysicist. um Smith wants to go to medical school. I don't know if I mentioned that. um And so, yeah, these these are crazy things. And I don't know. yeah Right, right. I don't know if these things will happen, but they're but they're both smart boys. yeah but but But as an example, um we have our lake house down a little lake cabin, actually, down in Georgia where I grew up. We've had it since i was four years old.
Speaker: And um it's now passed by myself and and my sister-in-law, Lisa. And I took Miller every year. When I say, what do you want to do for your birthday? He says, I want to go to the river. We call it the river.
Speaker: um and he's and And he takes a group took three of his buddies. And Smith went down and his girlfriend, Lindsay, went down. And so me and six teenagers.
Speaker: um And it is a work trip. for me in a lot of ways. I'm the chef and I'm the house cleaner and the driver, you know, all the things. But it is, i come back exhausted and full um from that trip. And we've done it every year since they were in eighth grade and Smith did it with his buddies.
Speaker: And my point in that is that when when when I think about like the busyness of their life and the crazy stuff and like Miller's intelligence and his kindness and he's, he's reserved and he's,
Speaker: less likely to jump out on the page like Smith will just jump out and, you know present and Miller sneaks up from behind, you know, and, um, but they both, when they get to you, however they get to you, um, they, they, they love, they are lovers of people and they love to laugh and watching the two of those boys laugh together as different as they are and how much they really genuinely love each other.
Speaker: um that part of their more so than my relationship with each of them and their relationship with each other is the is a joy one of the great joys of my life for sure and so got getting to see that at the lake just last weekend um ah i mean it's just life-giving so yeah like Thank you for asking about my boys, by the way. Listen, our time with you, honestly, has been life-giving to us. Just almost reminds us of just the just the joy of being able to connect, to be to live small, to be present.
Speaker: And you've given us that today to be able to wander that too. So thanks so much, Rush, for this little birthday gift for me. a Happy birthday. I'm so you're grateful but to spend some time with you and ah and that we we hope someday we'll be out walking around the walk around the streets of Nashville and maybe bump into you again sometime.
Speaker: I would love it. That'd be awesome. Maybe me and Alan will be walking around up here and bumping you all together. That'd be fun, right? Thanks so much. Thank y'all. Hey, we're grateful. Thank y'all for having me. It's been a joy, for real.
Speaker: The shadows are long. The tea is sweet. And the grass is a carpet beneath our feet. That was something else.
Speaker: That was, listen, that was probably my top five best birthday lies ever.
Speaker: You were, that was, cause you thought that judge was coming in here. Yeah. yeah Yeah. And boom. i was like, Oh, Norman. That was so cool, dude.
Speaker: but You know what? That was, that was really, really, really cool. Thanks. Thanks man. That was a, that was a real, that was a real gift.
Speaker: And I just, yeah, I loved every bit of it. I loved every bit of it. Who would have thought Ian, and my mind's blown that we're, I mean, we're actually, we're the same age. I know.
Speaker: I know. Think about all the things he's done. That's wild. Yeah, yeah. Think about all the wonderful life he's had, Joe. All the amazing things he's done around the world. All the lives he's impacted in his 53 years. Look at all the things he's had. And look at what you haven't done. Whatever, dude. I make a good plate of nachos, buddy.
Speaker: Good plate of nachos.
Speaker: oh gosh i did you know what though like like there are a couple like massive walkways from that from that conversation that i'm really going to reflect on is one of them was and i i'm really going to think about this that there's a way that the lord uses this yeah that um that let's say let's say you go to a particular place you know that you've been before And when you go back, you're reminded of that place, that time. Yes, exactly. also But then you also are interpreting that through the lens of the present.
Speaker: So the way that you the way that you remember is actually subjective. how you remember. Yes. And that's, that's why. um Yeah. So, so for him to be able to do that, but, but for the kind of the, the conduit of that is lyric.
Speaker: which also unites truth and the emotions together. And for him to be able to to listen through um a lyric and a melody that was meaningful in a moment that he can remember. That's his. and yeah Yes. And for that to then be able to speak to his present in a new way.
Speaker: Right. In a new way. that And in some ways that he didn't even intend that now he's listening to that lyric and what that means to him and how it speaks to him today. From his own mind and heart, that is a crazy it is crazy expression of how humanity, the capacity that humanity can do those kinds of things. I just think is a reflection on again, our image bearing of course design where you go, man, how amazing it is ah that the Lord gives us the opportunity to think and to reflect and his kindness and his kindness for our own words in that way.
Speaker: yeah that was a that was ah that was a really That was a really big moment. And then obviously the the living small moment. Living Small that we double clicked on too. Yeah.
Speaker: It was... ah Man, i would just I was like, I so desperately wanted to just go, ah can you just like tell me some tour stories. like I want to you know already hear the owner hear the fun stuff. But again, it's like, it's just it's not about all that stuff. It's not it's not's not about the glitz. It's not about that. It's about him. like right like The op opportunity to actually go, oh man, hear how you think.
Speaker: Yeah, and I was thinking when we were talking to him, it was crossing my mind that i will you know we'll we'll never listen to Bebo Norman's music the same way again. no way. Because it's not just music on what was a CD. you know What's on Spotify from 2004? By the way, the iPod I gave you for your birthday is from 2004. Yeah.
Speaker: But it's not it's not just that. It's now you have the context of this person that has written those lyrics, that has lived those lyrics in ways and has shared his living of those lyrics with us today. And it just it just gives a whole other dimension too what what it means to listen to it and draw from it as we have been.
Speaker: You know what else I really enjoyed was ah was just um watching him just ah enjoy in a right in a right way.
Speaker: ah Just the blessing that that he would have over time when somebody would reach out to him or or know who he is and the music that he's made to say, hey, I just get a chance to express that this lyric or this song really meant something to me. And just in the ordinary every day of his life and and how that isn't like old hat for him, but that that's just a precious kindness to love the Lord to him. And I really appreciate it too when you when you shared um when you shared that lyric and to to do that. I thought that was a really, like I got to see that happen in real space, like watching yeah watching him genuinely be blessed by
Speaker: to bless by what the Lord had done with, with a lyric, you know, that, you know, 20 years ago. And then now, and then now here in time that yeah that's been a blessing. I thought that that's really, that's really cool. How, you know, whether you be a Mormon or whether it's the, the almighty, you know, oh podcast.
Speaker: Hey, that's great. He's back. Sorry. I'm back. He's back. That is cool. so okay so i just Sorry. Is that what we're doing? i'm I'm just checking to see if it was doing. It just said join, so I clicked join. I didn't know y'all would still be here at all. We're debriefing about how great our conversation with you was. We're debriefing how much enjoyed talking with you. And then all of a sudden, like, hey, there it is again. Look at that. Well, hey, what's up? What do you guys want to go eat?
Speaker: Yeah, it'd be perfect. The shadows are long. The tea is sweet and the grass is a carpet beneath our feet.
Speaker: Pass the guitar, lean back in your chair. There's a soft kind of magic in the evening air.
