Transcript
Speaker: Don't you ever. Never. Say those words in my ears. I cannot unhear it. And you just can't reproduce it like that.
Speaker: ah Anyway.
Speaker: I gotta show you. i get a show look at this Look, look, quick quick look. This is a cold open. What? I'm trying your choppy. Whoa! It's like fuzzy. is that what Are those like ah coconuts? Tomatoes?
Speaker: that's about... no tomatoes but no that's about but I don't know, maybe 150 balloons. Oh, balloons. Why? What are all those letters for? yeah this Well, it's you know it's a little bit of a it's a little bit of a grad party for a friend of ours.
Speaker: Oh. so yeah so yeah it's been So they were blowing up all those balloons. and we the um the The friends that we hang out with, that they you know there is not a balloon arch that they don't love. You know what i mean? I love a good balloon arch. and arch Lots of balloon arches. This is going to happen in the backyard.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. My backyard. ah Solo stove. Solo stove. It does. ah No, this is going to be a non-fire. Wonderful weather here. So it's fantastic. So we're, and we're enjoying all this thing. So yeah, I'm just going to, you know, going to make it happen.
Speaker: Good evening. Oh, it's fantastic. Philip, I tell you what. So I'm Joe. Nice to meet you. Good to meet you too. Yeah, we're like, we're happening here. i So and I was just talking to Rush was on there and he goes, I go, so who's Philip?
Speaker: what ah What are we doing? I mean, it really does prove the point of the podcast. So what why don't Rush, why don't you just, as we jump in, why don't you just tell me how how do you how did you connect with or know who Philip is? yeah in In South Africa, by the way.
Speaker: Yeah. Yes. Are you in South Africa currently? Yes. And it is evening and you may not be able to tell because I have a nice light in my, in the corner, but it is dark. It is seven o'clock at night, wintertime. So it gets dark quite early. Oh, wow.
Speaker: That's it. Let's see. Mystery already. fair You're a man of mystery. I love this. So, okay. So back to, sorry, I got distracted rush. big mystery how How did we all get here?
Speaker: So, Philip, it's good to see you again. so um Philip, ah I connected with Philip, Joe, on LinkedIn because I was trying to find, and I think I found through an article or something he had written, I was trying to find information about lifting weights, building muscle, and burning fat at the same time doing something like intermittent fasting or being fat adapted and all of that kind of thing. And so, Philip was great to respond to me. and Actually, I learned in our conversation that he's a bit of a yes man. He likes to say yes to things, and that's why he's here.
Speaker: Thank you, Philip. That's right. we need all the yeses we can get. All of a sudden, he's like, what what did I say yes to? What are we doing? I must have admit, it is actually quite pleasant to say yes to things that you have no idea what the outcome may be. Yes! This is one, i I'm vividly recalling a specific incident where I bought my wife a birthday gift.
Speaker: and and And she said to me, when I gave it to her the next morning, she said, I don't like it. And I was quite upset, but I took it back to the guy I bought it from i like a store. And I said to hey, man, I need to exchange this gift. It was a swing and a miss. And went, ah, I get you. No worries. And he exchanged the gift at no charge or whatever the case may be. But it's it's one of those things, right? You take a couple of swings, someone misses.
Speaker: Most of them aren't. um So, yeah. Yes, man, I think is a so really it's it's a really entertaining thing to do, to say yes to random things. no We're glad that you you said yes to us. and And Joe, I wanted to tell you, ah he lifts weights a lot, or at least he has, and he's done a lot of endurance stuff. And actually, Philip, Joe and I lift weights.
Speaker: We may not look like it, but we we lift weights. and um And so it was really great for you to spend that time and help me. It's really helped me a lot. So we're here today to just talk to you and hear more about the way that you see the world and the things that you love, what makes you happy.
Speaker: And that's what our podcast is all about. so So tell me, so why don't you give us some of the some of the kind of, what are the stats? So give give us a background of you, ah what what your world looks like, um and what are what's something that you're you're really like excited about right now?
Speaker: so that's that's it's it's quite an interesting for me. it's a very It's a random story. Let me say that. So basically, I grew up and in South Africa.
Speaker: i was born to an Afrikaans family. and So you might hear the accent. It's because natively i speak Afrikaans. Although I did grow up in an English part of South Africa for a part of my formative years.
Speaker: and So interesting experience. But Nothing out of the ordinary in in terms of the familial history or any of that. and But I've just ah you know moved around as a kid a little bit, i went to university in Pretoria, South Africa.
Speaker: ah i still live four houses down from the guy I went, made my best mate from primary school, pre-primary school actually, we met in the room with four. yeah He literally lives four houses down and we don't see each other as often anymore. But yeah, that's that's how small my world is um in that regard. And I just studied genetics um at university. I actually wanted to become a doctor, ah but I did not have the marks to get accepted into medicine.
Speaker: um My friend got accepted into medicine, which is how I met my wife. They studied together. And yeah, after after doing genetics, I did some postgraduate stuff.
Speaker: I didn't really know what I wanted to be. um i always had my heart set on being a doctor, which and must be very honest. I'm glad that didn't work out. ah Now, back then I wasn't so happy, but now i'm I'm quite happy about it. And then I just basically tried a bunch of different careers. I think I am now my third, going on my fourth career.
Speaker: Okay. Completely different career. Yes. stgraph in biology yeah completely You're just saying completely different. Yes, yes. what's your What's your current career and what was the very last one?
Speaker: So the first one was a a scientist. So I studied biology, and genetics and and postgraduate biology. and and And I got an opportunity with the so science council of africa um also in coincidentally, through a blog I wrote as a very wise, just graduated individual, I wrote an opinion piece about how you can't clone dinosaurs and account of the genetic material, etc. It's long, wrong very smart, you know, opinionated story, probably wrong.
Speaker: And my then supervisor read the part and he's like, this guy sounds interesting. He knew himself, it's very interesting. Spent a number of years in Silicon Valley through different startups, etc. Relocated back to South Africa and he gave me a job. It was a very like...
Speaker: South Africa will have very interesting employment regulations. So getting a job in a government associated sector was quite challenging, especially as a male. um And anyway, so I've got a four month contract, I've worked there. I got exposed to engineering. I really liked that.
Speaker: And then, especially the data processing side of things. So I studied mathematics on the side programming on the side, became good at that. Met this guy on LinkedIn, like super weird, super smart dude. and We started a company. So then I became the CTO and the technology partner, founder of that company. Learned how to code.
Speaker: Built a company, got funding, moved to Amsterdam. We operated there for while. We eventually closed down the company. Then I went into insurance. And eventually I became a manager for sort of an actuarial function.
Speaker: ah and it's so natural role But role, but within an actual sort of team. ah Because people quit and it was COVID and it was just like a whole host of weird coincidences.
Speaker: And I was there for a couple of years and then I went back into the technology sector. And now i'm with I work for a company that does ah sort of integrations for financial services.
Speaker: And... Through a very long trying to do something, i found a CFA curriculum. And i just registered for the first exam, but first available exam.
Speaker: And yes, I wrote exam in May, beginning of May. And then... okay I'm waiting for my results. I don't deserve to pass. It didn't go so well. But I'll do that for the next couple of years and see if I can become a financial, chartered financial analyst.
Speaker: See how that will intersect with what I've already done in my career. You know what's so interesting, Philip, that as you describe it, that ah it it seems as though that you, and you had talked about that you have a you you have a ah curiosity about things that I think as you, whether it be, and just, I can see as you're nodding your head, it's just, you're like, yeah, but I'll explore that. What what is it?
Speaker: what is it about What is it about life that that you're most curious about? like what is it If you're looking at something, you go, huh, I'm curious about that. What is it about curiosity or what you're looking at that is intriguing to you or attractive to you?
Speaker: it's That's such an interesting question. um i have been obsessed with morality for a long time. and and And I'll give you the perspective. in The very first career ever wanted to be who was a scientist. The very first time someone asked me like, what do you want to be? I'm like, I want to be a scientist.
Speaker: Right now, I was a kid. i didn't know what it was. But the idea of, like, obsessing about over something and like and and truly understanding it and being able to think about. ah you know, in the context of what you have discovered, that is that the most remarkable thing, you know, because it's it's it's it's the process that's enjoyable, not necessarily the the outcome. is You can't, like, research or know everything, but the process of learning and understanding something new remarkable.
Speaker: and just some of it's It's just a rabbit hole I get stuck in. It doesn't matter. It's it's something I can be busy with one thing, and then I'm like, oh, I wonder how this works. And I would just like get into this rabbit hole.
Speaker: The first time I discovered Wikipedia, I spent like a week just reading articles. It was the most amazing thing ever. well do you remember that back in the day in the ninety s they had these ah encyclopedias like Encarta or something, i think it was called. and I thought you get on on the CD-ROM with the Windows 95 or something.
Speaker: I think I studied that in both discs like five times over. still remember some of the some of the encyclopedias we had as a kid. it just It's just, I guess it's my nature. But moral morality has been something that's been on my mind since I was, ah guess, late teens.
Speaker: And it's a recurring theme for me, specifically from the sort of the religious perspective, but not religious. not principally religion, more from an evolutionary perspective. Like, how does how does such a system become what forces, you know, if you if you if you took for a moment the science of it, um and irrespective your disposition with respect to religion, how does a system cultivate an environment where people
Speaker: are incentivized to be good on average rather than bad. And it's i don't know how this came to be, but throughout my genetics like undergraduate genetic studies, i had had to do i had to do a book review on Richard Dawkins' Selfish Gene book.
Speaker: And and i didn't read the book. I was lazy. But... I read the first couple of chapters and then I wrote a a book report, a very poor one.
Speaker: And then later I did actually read the book. And it's just the the whole mechanism and the process of it is just so fascinating because there's one particular aspect of it.
Speaker: that goes into game theory. And when you follow the trend from evolutionary biology into game theory, you start seeing really, like, things that you recognize, the prisoners' dilemma, you know, modern economics, etc. Then there's one particular gentleman called, i think it was John Maynard Smith, who wrote a concept called evolutionary stable strategies, which basically comes down to the idea that how do different individuals or individuals behave in a group setting so as to maximize their own, you know, utility in the long run. And from this process, you just get the most, it it becomes this extremely complex yet very simple, elegant process that delivers the most amazing, ah but at least the predictions or the results
Speaker: And it's a really good model for how, on a scientific basis, you can actually discover why, why make the argument, why would people be good in the absence of of of religion? And of course, if you if you put religion at the center of it, then it makes even the more sense. But I know you go, if you follow the the tangent of morality,
Speaker: um you become a father like I did a couple years ago. you start asking the question like, how do you create safety for your children? What is important in life? And it becomes like a first principles discovery of what the meaning of life is about your community, about your partner. And anyway, so that's a bit of a rabbit hole, but it's something that's been my mind for 20 years now.
Speaker: Yeah, that's ah it's a fascinating it's a fascinating topic. I don't think that many people would say that they're you know so interested in ah the inner workings of morality. And keep in mind, Philip, you are ah obviously, in the 14 minutes we've been talking, infinitely smarter than the two idiots there sitting here with you. So keep that in mind when you answer this next question, maybe answer it like we're five-year-olds. What what conclusion, what big conclusion have you come to about... Where your morality has come from, what has made Philip's morality what it is?
Speaker: because i would yeah Because I would assume that on the that you would want to pursue on the good side of things, right? I hear the juxtaposition between what is it what is it that motivates others to do good versus doing evil,
Speaker: and and what is it about and the beauty of goodness or the dynamics of what's being created that that that is that that's something worthy of of pursuit what is it what is it for you that that sets those first principles what are those first principles that's a that's such a complex question but the the simple answer i would say is i grew up christian And when you step into the unknown and you encounter problems or challenges that you haven't been able to prepare for,
Speaker: you haven't ever encountered before, you revert to the things that are most familiar to you. And in that regard, i I basically believe that my Christian principles have given me the guidelines for a successful life. Now, whether I would label my life successful, just give me second. can Hey, who's in there?
Speaker: Hey, let's see. Go one. door one Who's saying hello? Who is this? Oh, who's that? Okay. Can I hear her voice?
Speaker: Okay. Can I say hello? Yes. Oh, who is Let us mute the microphone. This is my daughter, Elizabeth. Sarah, they speak English. Hi.
Speaker: Hi, Elizabeth. How are he Oh, yeah. Headphones. Hey, Elizabeth. How are you? Hi, Elizabeth. Um, how are you?
Speaker: Good. We're in America. I am very good. Elizabeth, how old are you? Five? Wow.
Speaker: are tall. you are you are so tall now you, Elizabeth, Yes. do you have red hair yes my daughter mabel also has red hair And it is very, it is, I have learned that it is very special.
Speaker: It is very special that you have red hair. So enjoy being a redhead.
Speaker: you a redhead too, Philip? Are you and her mother Wow.
Speaker: Yep. It's actually, it's very weird. So so mom's mom's on call this weekend. So she was off she was rushed out for an emergency but a couple hours ago. So we're home alone. And she said she no longer feels like being alone in the house. So she would now be behaving love you that and we love We love all families on the good old podcast. So that's wonderful. That's that's amazing. And I think maybe it's ah it's ah an exceptional addition to how sort of my whole model alignment came to be. Because when you become a father, Jordan Peterson said it really well. He said, you never really become an adult or mature unless you,
Speaker: learn I think unless you discover someone who's more important than you, you know, in your own emotional construct. And when I had to take responsibility for her education, happiness, her safety, safety not just at home, but safety when she goes out into the world and preparing her for the world and making sure that she has a good set of values to be able to confidently navigate, you know, life.
Speaker: formative years and a professional life, et cetera, you start searching for what, but I'm a very framework-driven person, so what framework gives the best success?
Speaker: And then you start thinking about, well, the Judeo-Christian world is probably the framework that has gifted us the most amazing a success, prosperity, happiness ah throughout history.
Speaker: And then if you start digging into the principles of what the lessons are, how how the Bible actually teaches you to be responsible, responsible adult, a responsible father, a good partner, and a good husband, why be a good husband?
Speaker: Because If you invest in your marriage, you create an environment for your kid to just see the world, right I think, in a very positive way.
Speaker: And then they go out into the world and they become more. They have more opportunity. They they just get gifted like a head start. purely because you invest in a family dynamic. and But philosophical philosophically, maybe not even important. Like the thing that scares me, I think, most in the world is if I manage to screw up my marriage through whatever means, right, be it neglect or infidelity or substance abuse or whatever, the thing I risk is not the relationship per se, is getting up every morning and being able to see my kid.
Speaker: going to bed at night and putting her to bed. Because if we're separated and we live in different houses or different premises, I don't get to see my child. and And one of my favorite things in the world is 12.30 every day, I drive down to a preschool and I pick her up And we have a conversation. Some days it's a bad conversation. Some days it's difficult. Some days she's tired.
Speaker: Some days she's happy because she got a donut just before she got into the car. And these these, like having that life is not compatible with not looking after my marriage.
Speaker: So from a very first principles objective, that's the thing I have to take care of the most because it is the thing that gives me access to the life I want. And now if you're tim thinking about, okay well, that's what I want.
Speaker: And my father-in-law is a very religious man and and and and a practicing Christian. and And every single time I find myself, you know, not knowing the answer to something, I would think to myself, well, well if I had to ask my father-in-law, and often I do, what would the answer be to this? He always cites scripture, and says, well, this is how you're supposed to conduct your life.
Speaker: And if you... If you don't look at religion through a rebellious lens, as I did for much of my youth, you find the wisdom and you find the findd extremely electric exceptional guidance because these i believe these lessons, these stories have survived as a function of the processes or the frameworks that just it produces really good results.
Speaker: And it's inarguable. So let me ask you this, Philip. This is um an interesting question on my mind. so So you noticed that earlier you were talking about yourself and that you referred to yourself as being raised Christian and that those principles have stayed with you. And then you've also referred to your father-in-law, I think, as being a practicing Christian. What is the role of... uh christianity in your life today i wonder if perhaps you're you're not a you're you know practicing christian as you would put it and then um with that if that's true i i would like to hear your thoughts on something that i have always found fascinating and that is that even for people who are not practicing christians or they might even refer to themselves as atheists
Speaker: that they still seem to borrow from the Christian worldview principles that they hold dearly to. And I'm just curious if that's true for you, what why do you think that that is? what Why is it that Christian worldview has such a place in the lives of people that would say they're not Christians? But of course, first, you know the question is kind of like, where where are you in this scheme of things?
Speaker: So I, would like up come until very recently, I would have leveled myself atheist comfortably, even as ah as a badge of honor, maybe even as a, you know, maybe from even a perspective position of, of poor self-confidence as a badge of, you know, resistance and maybe triumph of sorts. would love myself an atheist.
Speaker: And practically speaking, that's still true, and but there's a very specific nuance. But I, more recently, as recently as about a year ago, started referring to myself as Christian.
Speaker: and Now,
Speaker: am culturally Christian. i observe all the Christian values. I have an extremely deep appreciation for the decorum of the Afrikaans culture, which is firmly rooted in the Christian principles.
Speaker: And my culture to me is extremely important because I believe that's the heritage and the framework you give your children that will allow them to achieve success or at least a higher probability of success.
Speaker: So I would lower myself Christian, but the... The one thing ive I've never experienced was any emotional connection to to to to to to a God, or God, if you will.
Speaker: and And I've come to the conclusion that i my framework of the world doesn't actually require God to exist. I think...
Speaker: You know, you could you could borrow from the lens and say, well, you should be behave in a particular way because that's God's will. And to me, it feels sometimes...
Speaker: ah perhaps because I'm really scientifically educated or just scientifically minded, it feels empty. Like that can't be enough. Like there has to be more than God's will.
Speaker: There has to be like, if you examine it on a continuum of how people behave amongst one another, there has to be an advantage. There has to be some value to conducting yourself in a way that that that advantages other people or at least, you know, creates opportunity for other people or happiness around you.
Speaker: And for for the longest time, I didn't really have an answer to that. and The only thing i knew was that um ah that there has to be some construct that explains with or without the presence of God itself.
Speaker: why and how people behave in a positive way on the majority you know for the majority of people. And let's let's speak about the Western world, I think more specifically the Judeo-Christian world where I believe happiness a is is disproportionately achieved ah compared to other frameworks and religions.
Speaker: um And I'm not speaking about the the the big religions, I'm also speaking about ah cultural religions in South Africa, for example, I believe there's more prosperity to be to be ah to be achieved through the to the Judeo-Christian framework.
Speaker: and And if you see ah people behave, for example, a you know you think about the nuclear family, you think about husband, wife, children, and you think about a dedicated husband and a dedicated wife,
Speaker: what environment they create for their child versus someone who isn't dedicated and just has an unhappy marriage ah versus then someone who is separated or divorced and how a child must experience the world given the safety or the erosion of safety, you know, from having a happy family or to not having a nuclear family. And if you extend that then to beyond that, for example, just the nuclear family to the community or the inter inter-family community,
Speaker: Why would you invest in someone else's happiness if in the short term you would always gain a benefit from not investing elsewhere but taking benefit if it's offered? And you see with people's behavior, they don't partake.
Speaker: Kids are the simplest. They don't play with kids who only ever want to be the princess. Sometimes you get to be the princess and sometimes you have to be not the princess. And everyone gets a turn.
Speaker: And in allowing that someone else to be the princess, you contribute to their experience and their happiness. But everyone has to partake this dynamic, otherwise it doesn't work. And the kids who always just want to have it their way, they end up not having as many friends as the kids who figure out how to play together.
Speaker: And from a community level, if you invest, you know, sort of and altruistically in your neighbor's happiness, then I believe these societies become more successful and the people represent these principles become more numerous and the world evolves in that sort of way.
Speaker: And you always get, the nice thing about the evolutionary principles, you always get those who take from, you know, let's say just plainly criminals,
Speaker: But statistically speaking, there will always be more good people than there will be bad people because if everyone is bad, then the good people will isolate themselves and the bad people can't steal from one another if there's nothing to steal. They will collaborate and become good because it's in their nature to collaborate in order to survive.
Speaker: um Anyway, that's, I suppose, my working lens for the moment. Yeah. Do you find do you find that the that the world is getting evolutionarily more good?
Speaker: Or is it or is the the the law of thermodynamics applied to morality as well? he don't Don't try to dismarce it.
Speaker: No, actually, did that the very first thing i ever tried to, like the smartest thing i ever tried to do was figure out how the second law of thermodynamics gives rise to the organization of life. Because it's so like it's it's still confusing.
Speaker: That's what you were asking about, right? Was that the part that kind of directs with him? Because I'm so captivated. actually started talking about thermodynamics. You've got to let that pass. It was evolutionarily, wasn't it? Yeah.
Speaker: You try. It It was a fantastic effort to be smart. I'm sorry. just said thermodynamics. Wonderful. But Phillip was very kind. He was like, you know, I tried to be smart too very early on, you know?
Speaker: brought up thermodynamics. And then he actually started talking intelligently about thermodynamics.
Speaker: That the part where I showed cards. Well, the part where i showed my cards ah ah most you saying evolutionarily.
Speaker: on behalf of on behalf of those you know those on the other side of the spectrum may just want to you know just but for what it's worth you've drawn me in evolutionarily i guess but yeah i think so that we have been need right specific But I'll show you one anecdote. I was studying with the shower once and there was this worm crawling up in the corner and the water from showerhead was sort of broken. It was just like it was squirting right onto this worm and this worm was still crawling up.
Speaker: And I thought to myself, like, why? Like, if you think about just thermodynamics, why on earth would it climb up? Like, wouldn't it be more energy efficient to just, like, wash down the drain? Like, why would it spend...
Speaker: the Earth's energy or, you know, ah why would it, but with why would why? And was stuck with that thought for years, actually.
Speaker: um But it it it resolves in ah in ah in a very long tangent, which I don't think is particularly interesting. ah Maybe it is to me, but it's not not for for for everyone else.
Speaker: um And maybe that also that's part of something I haven't quite resolved just yet. but I did write to a guy from Harvard who published something about the origin of life and the second law of thermodynamics.
Speaker: And wrote back um very kindly. um It's actually something I've been doing like... since was a kid. like i You didn't find like a band you really like, and I would just write them fan mail or write to different people.
Speaker: And once every 10 times, they write back. huh and that is that's ah That's always really... Some people are not very helpful. They they'll never respond in the way I would have responded if they'd written to me.
Speaker: um but But sometimes they do. oh Which is quite cool. ah So let me take an attempt at an actual, actually smart question, two-parter.
Speaker: Here's the first. yeah thank why Why are there worms in your shower, one? and number Because that's not a thing that I have ever had. here And number two, more important question.
Speaker: ah And this is where I think, Philip, we could talk. And I hope that maybe we can, after this is over, like maybe we can do a Zoom call again sometime. I certainly don't want to monopolize your time. Yeah, no, I honestly- i really enjoy talking with you.
Speaker: Really? And in your talking with you opens up a lot of avenues for us to talk about things that are very meaningful to us and interesting to us, Joe and I. But anyway, i wanted the second question after the worm answer is, ah so what do you think is the nature – I know I'm opening a huge question here.
Speaker: What do you think is the nature of happiness? Ooh. like what what is What does it mean to be happy? Because on the one hand, you've talked about God's will, doing God's will, and that sounds to me like it is very binary, obey or disobey.
Speaker: The principles of the Judeo-Christian worldview… produce a kind of society where something like happiness can flourish.
Speaker: I'll front load, Philip. i don't I don't think that there is a difference between happiness and joy as things. I think that those are the same thing. But what is the nature of those things for you? How how are you made happy?
Speaker: Yeah. So on the rooms question, there was a room. um And it was the season and one called into the shower. That was a small one, like a really small, thin one.
Speaker: I'd be happy to take you up on the future Zoom call. I think maybe that's something I've been exploring and I've been investing quite a bit of time in that the principles of morality and be open to having more conversations.
Speaker: The nature of happiness. ah So i suppose the best... and It's a paraphrase. I learned this from someone else. Mitchell Hooper, who is a Canadian strongman, one more strongman in 2023, I think, came second last year and third this year.
Speaker: he him he made a distinction that stuck with me quite vividly. He said, like, like being happy or doing the things that make you happy in the short term, and which maybe I would equate with joy, ah doesn't produce happiness. it It doesn't create fulfillment. It doesn't create long lasting drive and and meaning.
Speaker: So I have always been at my very happiest when I have attempted something new, something that is completely disconnected from something I've done before.
Speaker: Or something I ought not to be doing because it's taboo, like, you know, playing in a band because I'm at 40 or whatever the case may be. And and they and it when you just start investing time in it, you're like really bad. Like playing guitar in the beginning, you're quite bad. Or going to the gym in the beginning, you' quite bad. Or running, you're quite bad in the beginning. And then you persevere through that initial part.
Speaker: And then it becomes not so bad. And then you start getting better at a substantial, like a really, really fast rate. Like the fastest improvement you get is like when you just get over that hump of the difficulty and you start improving, you start seeing results.
Speaker: And then every single time you do this thing, you get better at it. And that initial phase of something new, I think is where happiness is for me. And I want to, I think, make that comment on behalf of everyone.
Speaker: But I think people who pursue, who change, who ah who who find new things to to to achieve, i think it's in the struggle for achieving that thing where happiness is created.
Speaker: and For example, I said to my brother-in-law the other day that children children are the long game of happiness. Because not every day with your kid is, every interaction with your child is particularly even just meaningful.
Speaker: Sometimes they're just annoying. And sometimes they're just kids. and they they just And they're boring sometimes. They say the same things and...
Speaker: but but And sometimes it's it's difficult. Sometimes they're sick. Sometimes you're worried. And you worry a lot going ahead. But the sacrifice that goes into achieving this goal, in my opinion, for me, is what creates happiness.
Speaker: it's in the It's in the process. It's not at the end. So let me see if I can translate that for Joe. Joe, here's what I think he's saying. yeah I think what he's saying is... is the Yes, go ahead.
Speaker: I think he's saying that happiness comes from ah making meaning of your life and world and the process by which you make that meaning.
Speaker: But I would also ask him then... Does that mean that your happiness is limited by your ability to make meaning of things?
Speaker: So that your your happiness is is really dependent, Philip, on your ability to make sense of the world. And what if you can't make sense of the world?
Speaker: The world doesn't need to make sense. I just need to attempt to make sense. for it to make sense. And it's in the persistent iteration of ideas and concepts and frameworks and throwing away frameworks that no longer serve me and and going, well, okay, well, that one didn't work.
Speaker: um Atheism, as smart as I thought I was, clearly wasn't the way to raise a kid. because it it gives you absolutely no tangible values. Now now we we embark on a different journey.
Speaker: We do Christianity 2.0, the one where I don't have an emotional connection to God, but I fairly strongly am drawn to the principles.
Speaker: And being really good at living these principles is is a pursuit, is a challenge. It
Speaker: it doesn't come easy. and And it cannot be purchased. It cannot be gifted. It can only be received through sacrifice, by sacrificing things that will drive pleasure in the short term for things that will produce meaning in the long term.
Speaker: And that that process, once you start seeing small little ah you know improvements or increments in chain of change, I think it gets really addictive.
Speaker: You know, this reminds me of a thing. It's it's actually a nice adage. There's a poster in multiple startup companies in the world, but this one, I posted it on X and it said, we're doing this ah not because it is easy, but because we thought it would be easy.
Speaker: oh And that stuck with me because, you know, often you think, oh, wish it will just take a couple of minutes and it becomes like a two-year obsession. um or whatever the case. But that's that to me is it's the pursuit. It's the persistent.
Speaker: You cannot improve yourself without going through something tough, sacrificing mentally or physically, financially. <unk> It's an investment.
Speaker: And then once you start seeing incremental returns on that investment, that's where the like the like it gets really addictive. Not the part of the end where you now have to like, and like reap the rewards.
Speaker: i I've never been particularly interested in that part, yeah you know, from ah its a, let's say, financial perspective or from a career perspective. But I'd rather make a change and do something else and enjoy the process of becoming, you know, like starting from nowhere and becoming proficient um or even above average. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So can you can you say some more about what you are getting at along the lines of happiness? Sorry, he mentioned above average, and I just wanted to highlight. That's that's essentially my goal in this podcast, these just to be at least just a little just a little above average. I just thought I'd make a note there.
Speaker: In the process of this podcast, I am changing and trying to do it. How would you evaluate yourself? In the midst of my struggle, I'm seeking to improve as well.
Speaker: Back to you, Josh. Philip, do you think that Joe is being above average? No, no, I thought you wanted him to comment on that. Thank you. I hear that. Okay, ask your question.
Speaker: ah So i but I was just saying, ah you had said that you know happiness cannot be given or gifted because it requires sacrifice.
Speaker: And my understanding of the Christian worldview is that happiness is gifted by sacrifice because of the person and work of Jesus who lived, died, and rose again.
Speaker: for the very purpose of making people happy.
Speaker: And I wonder what you think about that, given your ah you know your ah walking out life in the Christian worldviews or in the in Christian principles, and and whether... your views reach into that more theological area of the Christian worldview beyond the principles of maybe the, maybe the rules or the values that, you know, make someone quote Christian or Christian-like, you know what mean?
Speaker: Hmm. So I, I find that the, the poetry the, and the the spiritual experience of Christianity and the Word of God quite beautiful.
Speaker: i I'm not... I'm infinitely drawn to poetry and to music um and to vivid concepts and constructs and that create beauty. And I think it is not...
Speaker: it's not an accidental byproduct. I think the ability to feel good about the messaging, about the concepts, about the the purity of ah of of the person or the entity that has gifted life to you, um it's it's ah it's a wonderful idea. It's a wonderful image. And it's something to you know to in my opinion, that people well will be drawn to because of the beauty of the concept.
Speaker: As to the the the say the implications of whether or not happiness comes from God and is gifted by God, i don't have a firm perspective.
Speaker: um I'm very open to the idea that that may very well be true. i i have no concern about the objective fact or the reality, if you will, of this, because I don't think it's particularly important.
Speaker: What I do think is is valuable is that even in the Christian worldview, you have to forgive yourself.
Speaker: You have to ah repent. You have to ask for forgiveness from God. And in the process of of of going through this ritual and and and and engaging in this in this in this practice. You learn to accept yourself. You learn to accept others. You learn to accept the things that you cannot change and take responsibility for the things that you can.
Speaker: And in making changes, um the whole concept of sacrifice and only being able to really have something that's deeply meaningful through sacrifice is is not novel on my my and my behalf. it's It's something that every Christian or every, you know, not every Christian, but since sincerely the majority of Christians will appreciate, you know, as is a director from the Bible.
Speaker: And i've I've unfortunately had to learn many lessons where the answer was gifted to me, and I couldn't accept the answer until I experienced emotionally why that feels true or is true.
Speaker: And I suppose maybe this is just my way of reinventing the wheel. I certainly don't advocate this journey for for anyone else. You know, if you if you want the answer, practice Christianity.
Speaker: You will be happy. You will be substantially happier. if you and if you submit yourself to the Christian ways and find a way to engage with with the Word of God and with with with the Lord, if you will.
Speaker: haven't been able to do that um from an emotional perspective. But practically speaking, I still believe I get the value because...
Speaker: um manwe i don't know. it's ah Certainly, I'm i'm i'm having... ah a really, really good time as a husband, as a father, as a member of my community. I'm really, really happy.
Speaker: um And I cannot help but think that it coincided with my with my move back to Christianity. So I don't know. Perhaps you have a better answer.
Speaker: So maybe maybe one more question then with that, um in the time that we have, what was it that moved you back? Melissa, I missed you so saying that earlier. What what was it um that that kind of nudged you out of a kind of ah ah robust atheistic, at least a front? Well, there was a very particular incident that sort of i kicked off this direction, or kicked off this journey. It was I won't go into detail, but um um
Speaker: ah an acquaintance, let's say, um divorced single mother of two ah hadard ru she has a daughter and she also has ah had a boyfriend and they were even guests in our home and and later on we found out that the boyfriend had you know abused the the her ah daughter of who at the time was five years old and I won't go into the details but what I heard and the details of that incident that really like really horrified me
Speaker: and because it's ah really it's close to home. It's someone we know, and we know quite well. And and also, it's i have a daughter. And the first question that jumped into my mind was, how do i prevent that happening to my child?
Speaker: Like, what do i have to do to not ensure, but to substantially improve the odds that this will not occur ah willll will reduce the odds of it happening to my kid?
Speaker: And and this this is this this became like a really black, like, so almost like a melancholy period where I contemplated, like, how do you take control, not control, but how do you take responsibility and how do you improve her environment such that she has the best opportunity and the lowest risk?
Speaker: And throughout this process, the first thing I realized was, well, the the the person in question was divorced through no fault of her own, um, but divorced nonetheless and a single mother. So what happens? She's a single mother and she doesn't want to be a single mother, so she invites possible suitors into a home.
Speaker: She wants to court a man. She wants to be partnered and married. Now, she happened to be taken advantage of by a predator, but the the reality is that children, that's where I realized, children are meant to be brought up in the nuclear family. They're meant to be brought up.
Speaker: in an environment where mother and father take responsibility for their happiness and their safety. So that gave me a lot of sort of just respite. I felt calm and I said, okay, well, I am looking after my marriage. We have been working on ourselves and our marriage for many years. we were both in therapy, are going on a decade and almost almost almost a decade each, taking responsibility for our lives so that we can Maintain a happy and strong marriage um ah You know for for a long period of time which i I am very proud to say that I think we are doing a really good job um of that so I've got comfort that 80% of the things that I have to worry about probably doesn't have to exist. The second part is well how do create safety for her when she goes up that outside of my house? Well, I have to curate her
Speaker: environment Well, how do I do that? I curate environment by a choosing which schools you attend, etc. Now, Afrikaans, and Afrikaans, Afrikaans people are a minority, and there are a couple of locations where Afrikaans people still have, like, really core Afrikaans, like, schools and and and towns, etc. And we stay in the heart of Pretoria, the most Afrikaans city in the world.
Speaker: ah Probably every other African city will say the same. But anyway, so we stay here and I see them, okay, well, I send it to school. ah all of the All of our classmates, they go to church. So does that give comfort that their parents are for the most part married, they come from Judeo-Christian background? And yes, it did. gave me comfort that probably because she spends time with a family or like a community of Christians,
Speaker: on probability, she's probably safer than if we went into a substantially more secular environment where we don't know which principles are being enforced and which weren't. Now, that gave me comfort again. Like, now I'm taking another step in introducing and creating safety.
Speaker: And it's from there where the were the sort of nucleus of the idea, well, how crucial am I really if I am drawn to and ah not almost seduced by how how perfect, not perfect and perfect in in the sense, but how perfect the framework is.
Speaker: And then I just started reading bit more and thinking about a bit more deeply, and then I discovered, oh, well, you know what? i I have never left Christianity. have always observed it in my marriage, in my family values,
Speaker: and And basically, they say, welcome back. You know, it's always been here. It's absolutely fascinating, Philip, what you're saying. It's fascinating to me, ah in part because ah what you i think in our what you're saying is, in a way, lining up with the way that I see the world and the way that I see God, because you're saying that ah happiness comes from control
Speaker: If I am in control of my life, if I can be in a way, let's use the word sovereign over my world and the and the world of my children, and if I can ensure that my will is done, then i am happy. And that is the definition of happiness.
Speaker: And therefore, what that means is that the God of the Christian worldview according to the Bible, is the happiest being in the universe.
Speaker: Yes. Because he has absolute sovereign control to do what he wants, when he wants, by the very nature of being who he is. And therefore, he is the only one who can give me happiness, not through my control, but by my submission to his control and his will in my life.
Speaker: Am I making sense? Yes, i I do. I do see what you are saying. Yes. It's an interesting thought. Yeah, paraphrase that for Joe.
Speaker: Well, maybe just from my my my my understanding is that in submitting to God's will, you get access to his that is happiness. You you you get a lens into what the world is like.
Speaker: when you engage and and submit to the will and the principles of the teachings of God. And i bar the packaging or the narrative of it, I don't see what you have described as substantially different from what I have described, and in the sense that it's about submitting to the principles, the framework,
Speaker: and and really understanding how if you invest more in things that you don't immediately understand has value.
Speaker: like Like teachings like turn the other cheek. it's It's not about the other person. Turn the other cheek means, or at least in my interpretation, is is like accept that you cannot control this.
Speaker: Don't change the individual. Take whatever medicine they want to dish out and move on. And don't be angry. Don't seek vengeance because forgiveness is is is is is gifted, not received.
Speaker: You forgive and you feel better. That's why the the Bible doesn't teach you to go out and and make others forgive you, which incidentally what people do. Have you ever noticed when someone is late to a party? It's very subtle, but they'll call, like the function starts at seven, they'll call at 15 past seven and they say, hey, I'm sorry I'm late.
Speaker: Well, I already know you're late because it's quarter past seven and you're not here. So why are you calling? You're calling so that I can give you my forgiveness, which is very weird because forgiveness is something that you gift and then you feel better and you don't carry the resentment and the anger and the whatever else.
Speaker: It's not something if to be placated with so you feel better about having done something wrong. Anyway, so these things, i think... Materially, if you step if you stop asking the question, why or how does this particular teaching or this particular message, how does it benefit me?
Speaker: And just give over to the idea that if you practice it, you will find out. And for me, that was or is still a bit of ah ah ah a friction point.
Speaker: Like to just take at face value that if you if you just submit to the way that you will get more in return, which emotionally, I think, is similar to what you have described with achieving happiness through ah through you know giving God control of your life.
Speaker: Yeah. I think that um the difference, I understand what you mean. i think that the difference between what you're describing and what I'm describing is a bit of um happiness in ones in one in one way is being found by me manipulating the the the the principles of my life, trying to control the structures of my world.
Speaker: And I do that by making sure that my manipulations are Christian. And my my view would be different in that happiness is not found by personally.
Speaker: reaching out with my hands horizontally, but by the God of the Bible, reaching his hand into my world and ensuring that even if I don't manipulate the levers, even if I don't get the principles right by grace, not not by merit.
Speaker: He is making a commitment to give me his happiness. yeah and We could put it in really stark terms, right? And ah so I want to be sensitive, you know, saying it this way, that even if, even if I can't protect my children and my children die, can I be happy?
Speaker: can I find happiness? If it is about me manipulating those things in order to make happiness possible, I cannot. But if it is about the happiest being in the universe, reaching into my world and ensuring that even if my children die, i can be satisfied in him then Absolutely.
Speaker: happiness is super transcendent. i i I don't share your perspective, but I like your version better. And if I could choose a truth, that's the one I would want to be true. And I i would have to say that maybe that is absolutely the reality of it.
Speaker: And, ah you know, from when i was a kid, I've always wondered, I've always sort of like been really sort of um like like amazed at people who can truly ah you know, let go and give themselves over to the Lord. and And I tried a bunch of, you know, ways to do that. It's it's just, this look, I mean, there's a lot of themes in my therapy about control and control issues and some OCD and above whole a whole host of other things that I think make my mistake my personality particularly resistant to relinquishing control.
Speaker: which maybe even the concept of linguaging control is just scary enough for me to just go, no you know what no, I don't want to approach the topic or whatever the case may be. But I i do envy the the clarity and dare I say the piece with which you speak um on this topic. and it is That is remarkable.
Speaker: It scares me. I'm not going to lie, but it is attractive as a
Speaker: ah as a construct. So, yeah, I'm happy to accept your version events. I tell you what, I just, hi, I'm Joe. I've been, I was the guy who made the comment about the guitars earlier. For whatever it's worth. For whatever it's worth. Phillip, I just, I've been, just, I've so enjoyed, mean, deeply enjoyed this conversation today.
Speaker: ah just and And my heart is filled with immense gratitude, um Philip, that you said yes to this conversation today. That the curiosity ah that um that that brings joy to you, my my hope is today, is that in part in part, that you've experienced some level of joy ah today to engage in this conversation and to give us the opportunity to share some time with you. It's just ah it's just been a remarkable time. So ah so thank you for um ah for your time and for being here. And certainly if you have opportunity for us to connect further, I would love to be able to do that too. Thank you.
Speaker: Absolutely, and thank you to both of you for hosting me and also allowing me to speak at length and freely. It's so enjoyable.
Speaker: It's so enjoyable. But it is's it's interesting, you know, coming coming into this conversation, and just I just thought about these things and maybe it was the great platform and the great audience with the two of you.
Speaker: to have conversation. indeed For me, it's been really enjoyable. ah Wonderful. Well, it has been it has been for us as well. And thank you for and ah sharing and entrusting to us just the way in which that you think. It's really been enjoyable. and And I hope, yeah, that we get the opportunity to do it again. So thanks so much for being with us today.
Speaker: And yeah, we pray that your pursuit of happiness would really come to full completion in every way. You're exactly the the kind of reason that we do this. And that's, you've made us think about some important things and we're better better for it, Philip.
Speaker: Thank you. All right. rush Joe, thank you very much. Have a good
Speaker: I thought that was pretty wild, actually. I don't know that we have been that deep in... Dude....in conversation with someone any episode. I mean, all the episodes are great. It's all great. No, yeah, yeah. They all have different... Dude. That was wild. His willingness and his curiosity to allow explore line of thinking
Speaker: to to allow to explore a line of thinking yeah that then at the end where he said you know here it's like man i actually just again i i think he affirmed and just really even modeled the way that he thinks which is like man that exploration even though even though i disagree I can see the beauty in what you're talking about.
Speaker: And that was just a, and it's very rare that you hear somebody speak with, with that level of, um, safe candor. Yeah. That was, um, that was really enjoyable to be a part of and to contribute to. Right. I mean, I feel like, you know, if I,
Speaker: come
Speaker: 100%. This will go down in so many ways. That's probably my most embarrassing conversation that I've had on this podcast. It should not be. Why? Why?
Speaker: what do and what do you What do you have to be embarrassed about? Are you kidding me? Oh, my gosh. Evolutionarily? i'm gonna journal about that one tonight i'm gonna journal about that one but yeah but but not only is it that is it that but but then at the same time it was also just again every single episode i don't understand it but each one is just getting more and more interesting yeah just fascinating and this one i'm telling you was just it was it was captivating to me yeah it it also
Speaker: It also the illustrated, i think as well, that sometimes a good conversationalist allows for one conversation to really develop.
Speaker: Yeah. Instead of, you know, always trying to like, that that being a part of a conversation doesn't mean that you always have to speak. And so there there is that moment there is that moment where i was watching this happen, where the two you just were really just enjoying the beauty of conversation.
Speaker: and um and it just was it was really this. really needat to be a part of and And it also proved that when I tried to be a part, I clearly was not making an contribution. I'm still glad you were there for it, Joe. Thank you. You're still an important part.
Speaker: Everybody, yeah thank you yeah had part. We all can't be an eye rush. We all can't be an eye. That's right. i will that was That was something else. And we didn't even we didn't even get to talk about the, I mean, like, you know, the connectable with health and fitness and all that, which was the entry gate. He's so focused on, man he's so focused on, I mean, how many people sit around and think about the nature and inner workings of morality and how it evolutionarily comes to be in a thermodynamic world?
Speaker: ah Just you and Philip, really. Man, at least we're on brand. You know what i mean? Oh, yeah. Always keeping it on brand. I'll see I'll see you the next thing. ah All right. We'll see you
