Transcript
Speaker: Aliens watching reality TV.
Speaker: Welcome back to Aliens watching reality TV.
Speaker: I'm Erica.
Speaker: And I'm Josh.
Speaker: And I am Casey.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: We have our first ever guest.
Speaker: That's pretty exciting.
Speaker: Casey, who are you?
Speaker: So my name is Casey Davis.
Speaker: I have a TikTok channel at Domestic Blisters.
Speaker: I wrote a book called How to Keep House While Drowning.
Speaker: And I'm just a neurodivergent lady about town.
Speaker: Yeah, so we ended up being connected.
Speaker: I had seen some of Casey's videos, but then Casey made a video about basically just sort of noticing, hey, there appear to be some neurodivergent-seeming people on these shows.
Speaker: And then a whole bunch of people tagged me in the comments, and they were like, yeah, I would actually be down to come on your podcast.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, my God, okay.
Speaker: So here we are.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And I have, I'm ready.
Speaker: I'm so excited.
Speaker: I have thoughts.
Speaker: I am like 100 million percent here to hear thoughts from another neurodivergent people because Eric, another neurodivergent person.
Speaker: And because Eric and I have just talked about this so much, like we are dying for new content and your thoughts are our content.
Speaker: Yeah, and I feel like it's important to acknowledge, like Josh and I don't have the only neurodivergent perspective.
Speaker: There isn't one neurodivergent perspective.
Speaker: Josh and I just happen to agree with each other a lot.
Speaker: Casey, can you tell us a little bit about like your personal neurodivergence?
Speaker: Do you have specific like ways that you identify or also specific diagnoses?
Speaker: Because they don't have to be the same in my mind.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I, my early alphabet soup, like as a kid, got diagnosed with auditory processing disorder, dyslexia, and dyscalculia, I think is the other one.
Speaker: Dyscalculia, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then as an adult, got a late ADHD diagnosis, which sort of made a lot of sense.
Speaker: I had some addiction issues as an early teen, which I think is pretty related to my ADHD.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so that's kind of my, my soup.
Speaker: And then I so and I'm not autistic.
Speaker: I know that I'm not.
Speaker: I do occasionally say some things that make people go, are you sure?
Speaker: And I am sure.
Speaker: But
Speaker: I agree.
Speaker: Not that my opinion matters, but there are just certain things that you said.
Speaker: I'm like, yeah, I agree.
Speaker: I don't know why people feel like you might be wrong on that.
Speaker: Like, I think it's just so rare for people who aren't autistic to actually understand autistic people, but you do.
Speaker: I think that there's certain and maybe and, you know, I don't know whether it's the overlap.
Speaker: And I think also, though, that a lot of people will say, like, you seem autistic to me because I relate to so much of this.
Speaker: And then there's people that will talk about like, ooh, ADHD and autism is the same spectrum.
Speaker: And they do that because of like their own experience.
Speaker: But I can tell you that like when I listen to autistic people talk about like the social spectrum,
Speaker: criteria part of the diagnosis, I have never related.
Speaker: I don't relate.
Speaker: Like it is so clearly outside of my realm of experience.
Speaker: Like I absolutely relate on some level to some sensory stuff, but not to the same degree.
Speaker: And I absolutely relate to some black and white thinking and some strong sense of justice stuff and some like
Speaker: Some people who really relate to like being really analytical.
Speaker: But I think sometimes people don't realize that maybe they have ADHD and autism.
Speaker: And that's why they think they're so similar because.
Speaker: And so many people with ADHD don't realize they are also autistic.
Speaker: So they ascribe everything to ADHD.
Speaker: And that blurs people's concept of it for sure.
Speaker: Yeah, I feel like when we think about the spectrum, we think of the 2D plane, but the spectrum is really sort of like a 3D sphere.
Speaker: There's a sphere and depending on where you are within the sphere, you could be more, I mean, you're autism, you could be closer to autism than, but also have ADHD.
Speaker: Or you could be closer to ADHD, but also have autism.
Speaker: It's like you could, the intensity, the level, there's so many things going on that it's hard to just say, oh, I am ADHD and there's nothing else going, nothing else can be or is going on.
Speaker: And so I personally, I don't really subscribe to the medical model.
Speaker: So I have a different opinion on it, but we do not have to get into all my opinions on it.
Speaker: But I do think there is a neurodivergent neurotype that's sort of like, it's the way you think.
Speaker: It's just sort of structures your brain.
Speaker: And people who are not autistic, you can think like that, but you can also think in a more neurotypical way.
Speaker: And I think that's exactly why you're able to make these like
Speaker: asking in elastic videos because you can you can see one of the ways of thinking with the other way of thinking if that makes sense yeah and like i also really have always hit hard on the pattern recognition part yeah um
Speaker: And like I, so my kids are, you know, I don't think probably any one of my family's neurotypical, but one of my kids is autistic.
Speaker: And in the process of that diagnosis and in learning about things and in listening to people, and I have a lot of autistic friends that are adults.
Speaker: And what happened was from being around so many friends and family members, I started like when I was like out in the wild, I'd have an interaction with someone and I'd be like, oh,
Speaker: And I try to be real careful here because it's it's I think it's easy to come off maybe arrogant to say like, oh, I can spot someone, whatever, whatever.
Speaker: I say that all the time.
Speaker: Don't worry.
Speaker: If anyone's going to come off arrogant, it's going to be me.
Speaker: But I mean, as someone who's not autistic, right, I don't like to presume any kind of expertise that doesn't belong to me.
Speaker: But somebody asked me one time, like, why did you like Paul, for example, like literally from the first scene that I saw Paul in, I was like, oh, he kind of reads autistic to me.
Speaker: And somebody asked me like,
Speaker: why and i i gave some example and they were like how did you even pick up on that i was like i think it's pattern recognition um can you remember what what that first sign was what the example was yes um this is gonna sound really interesting i picked up on paul's irregularities of eye contact when he was in the pod not looking at anyone interesting
Speaker: Um, he has a way of moving his eyeballs that to me read as, um, like when I think about the way that I make eye contact with people, everything about it is intuitive.
Speaker: I've never thought about where I'm looking, why I'm looking.
Speaker: If you asked me like, we're consciously making a decision of how to do it.
Speaker: Whereas for holistic intuitive.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And so there's this way in which, and it's obviously not all people who are autistic, but there's this way in which many of my autistic friends, the way that their eyeballs and their head movements are coordinating is not the same as neurotypical people.
Speaker: Like they might be looking around, making eye contact, looking away, making eye, like the steps to the dance, but it doesn't
Speaker: Like, you know, when you see sometimes those like first person fighter pilot, like video games.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And there's like a gyroscope.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And like when it when there's something about like the way that the the little like the lines and the gyroscope are like moving with the plane and they're not moving in the same direction, but they're like seamlessly coordinated.
Speaker: Yeah, that's the horizon line.
Speaker: It's interesting.
Speaker: I just I saw a TikTok was describing some recent research about like autistic people's pupils.
Speaker: So apparently for 90 percent of autistic people, they have found that like they can be identified by the way their pupils are.
Speaker: Because apparently our pupils are slower to react to light.
Speaker: So they just get bigger and smaller more slowly.
Speaker: And also our pupils don't get as small as holistic people.
Speaker: And so it's interesting to think about even like probably one way that we subconsciously recognize light.
Speaker: if people are autistic or not, is like, even though we don't know we're noticing those differences, we can notice those differences.
Speaker: And then that's probably also part of why even we would move our heads differently and stuff, because like, literally our eyes work a little differently.
Speaker: It's an interesting aspect to reality TV too because you know that producers are purposefully making sure that there are people that are considered kind of weird in the mix.
Speaker: I think on Love is Blind, it's inevitable because it's a weird concept.
Speaker: It attracts weirdos for sure.
Speaker: And like, it makes sense that if you really wanted a deep relationship, but you were really exhausted by general socialization that goes into dating, that that would appeal to you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What were you going to say, Josh?
Speaker: I was going to say, I mean, yeah, I mean, I definitely agree with that.
Speaker: I, um, we were talking yesterday about how, um,
Speaker: for neurodivergent people.
Speaker: We are the sort of people who believe in this kind of thing.
Speaker: We believe in... That you can fall in love and connect with somebody so quickly.
Speaker: Without even seeing them.
Speaker: And we also agreed that the neurotypical people will only go there to have fame.
Speaker: They have to see people.
Speaker: They cannot just...
Speaker: you know, bond over not before seeing them.
Speaker: And that's, yeah, and that's like, it's not an insult.
Speaker: Like most people go on reality TV in general because they want to be on TV.
Speaker: So of course, like some people go on Love is Blind for that reason.
Speaker: But yeah,
Speaker: There usually aren't reality shows where people go on just for the experience of the concept.
Speaker: You know, that's one reason that Love is Blind is so unusual.
Speaker: So I do think it's like you have people on Love is Blind who are like people you would see on other reality shows.
Speaker: And you have people who you would never see on other reality shows.
Speaker: And you have them interacting with each other.
Speaker: And that's why it's so fascinating.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, not to mention, like, I don't know how many, like, if I couldn't, I don't know that I know off the top of my head, like, how many, like, neurodivergent, neurodivergent couples paired up.
Speaker: But there, at least in my experience, especially because, like, as someone with ADHD, like, I definitely have some, like, social interaction patterns that turn a lot of neurotypicals off.
Speaker: And I have learned over many, many, many, many years to be considerate of like the way that other people experience some of those traits and make sure that they're having also like having an enjoyable experience talking to me.
Speaker: But I also like when I get connected to someone who communicates the way that I do and there's this like, yes, this is amazing.
Speaker: Let it rip.
Speaker: And you just can flow.
Speaker: And for me, it's usually like interrupting consistently and talking really loud and having the kind of conversation that almost looks like arguing to other people.
Speaker: And there is like an electricity.
Speaker: And, you know, the times that that has happened with like a member of the opposite sex who often who is also attractive, it's like, is this my soulmate?
Speaker: I do think that is one of the things that will bring couples together on this show.
Speaker: It's just that that feeling of meeting another neurodivergent person, because, yeah, most neurodivergent people, even autistic people, we can adjust to other people's communication style.
Speaker: For to a certain extent, for a certain amount of time.
Speaker: But there's there's nothing like meeting somebody who you don't have to explain yourself to who you don't have to adjust how you present yourself and adjust it flows from there.
Speaker: And it's why you can see like Zack comes off so differently with Bliss than he did with Irina because he doesn't seem awkward with Bliss because it's he's not because he's able to just exist with her.
Speaker: Yeah, his like confidence level was so remarkably different and it changed his stature and it changed his behavior.
Speaker: And it even like as someone who was just looking at him, I think like changed my feelings of attraction towards him.
Speaker: I think that's really common, actually, because I like listening to other podcasts about Love is Blind.
Speaker: I mean, I try and keep up, honestly, with, like, every social media platform and just sort of knowing how everyone's feeling about it.
Speaker: Because that gives me a lot of information about how this is coming off to other people based off of, like...
Speaker: Based off of their neurotypes, basically.
Speaker: And Zach came off very poorly to most of the audience for most of the show.
Speaker: But there's been a huge change in how the audience perceives Zach.
Speaker: And he's like kind of a fan favorite at this point.
Speaker: And it's completely because now he's getting to just be himself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think we all have a little bit of an aversion to people who are not being themselves, who are insecure.
Speaker: And so, no, but I doubt that anybody was, like, really horny for Zack in those scenes with Arena, you know?
Speaker: Well, it's interesting to me because it makes me think like how many quote unquote traits do we as non-autistic people like think of as being autistic when in reality it's not the autism thing.
Speaker: It's just the reaction to being so rejected and being told you're so weird that you shrink.
Speaker: You get kind of awkward.
Speaker: You get, you know, some of those things, like the cringey.
Speaker: I think when people talk about like, ooh, cringe, ooh, cringe.
Speaker: And so I think that's a really fascinating thing to bring up because when you see the difference, I think some of that cringe isn't necessarily like, ooh, they didn't pick up on social cues or whatever.
Speaker: I think you can see it the opposite way because, you know, when a neurotypical person is in a situation where they have to adapt to a neurodivergent communication style or they're surrounded by neurodivergent people, they come off awkward.
Speaker: And I think you can see that when...
Speaker: Josh goes to Chelsea's birthday party because Josh is the weirdo.
Speaker: Because I think Josh is neurotypical.
Speaker: And I think most of the people at Chelsea's party are at least neurodivergent like, you know, they're kind of communicating that way.
Speaker: And that's how those friendships have been built.
Speaker: And now he's the odd one out.
Speaker: And he seems weird.
Speaker: He seems like he's not picking up on social cues.
Speaker: And I'm sure he seems totally normal most of the time, you know, when he's around people who are more like himself.
Speaker: And it is really just anytime you are judging somebody based off of the standards of something that they're not, they will always come up lacking.
Speaker: And that's really just unfair to do.
Speaker: So can I share my thoughts on Paul in the reunion?
Speaker: Please.
Speaker: Please do.
Speaker: So I'm sitting there and I'm listening to Paul and Paul is explaining like why he did not choose Micah.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And like what happened there with the relationship.
Speaker: And then Micah's sitting there so hurt or whatever.
Speaker: So I had so many thoughts running through my head.
Speaker: And my first one was, he seems so cold.
Speaker: And I would love to hear why you think that because that's a very common reaction.
Speaker: And he didn't seem that way to me at all.
Speaker: Like to me, I saw his feelings all over his face.
Speaker: But I know that like your reaction was a lot more common than mine.
Speaker: Well, so that was my, like, intuitive reaction.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Like, just kind of that intuitive response that I had.
Speaker: You know, I envision myself, like, if someone is speaking about that to me, I'm feeling dressed down.
Speaker: Is it his tone of voice or, like, facial affect or?
Speaker: Well, first let me say my second response was –
Speaker: Well, just because I want to make sure that I'm being clear.
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: I interrupt a lot.
Speaker: And so please ignore him and just keep talking.
Speaker: That's okay.
Speaker: Because he reads autistic to me and he had the whole season, I know not to put money on that feeling I have of he seems cold, like he doesn't care for her, like he thinks he's better than her.
Speaker: And so it was kind of just a fascinating experience because, like I said, I have a lot of autistic people in my life and we've had these kind of conversations where, you know, if you don't know someone is autistic.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: you experience their interactions very differently.
Speaker: And one of the things that I had brought up before on my TikTok even is like, I wish that there was more acknowledgement of like someone potentially being neurodivergent because it would change like some of the behavior here.
Speaker: And I got a lot of comments where it was like, you shouldn't need a diagnosis to treat someone like a human being.
Speaker: And yes, obviously, but there's a really big difference between treating someone like a human being and just a misunderstanding.
Speaker: Yeah, you can't correctly interpret somebody if you don't have some kind of idea of like who you're interpreting.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because if a neurotypical person was saying the exact same things and using the same tone of voice, it would mean something different.
Speaker: It does fundamentally change the interpretation.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And most neurotypical people in the audience, they don't have that knowledge that you have to take that second step and go, wait, but he doesn't think the way I do.
Speaker: So what does it mean coming from him?
Speaker: So they can only see, oh, he's cold.
Speaker: He has no feelings.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So to answer your question about like, what was it that made me feel that way?
Speaker: I think that it has to do with like, there is a distance at which he talks about the experience.
Speaker: where he is analyzing the experience, he's not being emotive about it.
Speaker: He's more being analytical about, you know, this happened and this happened and I did care for this person, but this, and then the truth is, it's like she kind of came up short.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, um, it seemed to me like, like if I'm Mike and I'm sitting there, what I'm hearing is just this very analytical, um, rundown of how I don't measure up.
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker: Like he doesn't love her anymore and that's why he's seeing her this way.
Speaker: Or maybe he never did.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Whereas like for us, that's just – it's just how – it's part of like our feelings is analyzing them.
Speaker: Like that's how our feelings work.
Speaker: The analysis is like included.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And also like just the literal facial expressions, right?
Speaker: Like I think that it was a really good point where – and I didn't quite say it, but when Zach basically said like, Micah, you're coming on here and basically painting yourself like the victim.
Speaker: Like he's being so mean to you and you haven't been mean to him or about him.
Speaker: And I thought that that was really a good point.
Speaker: And part of it is like if you look at Micah, she's doing things with her face and the small muscles in her face.
Speaker: That are communicating I'm in pain.
Speaker: And it really, really worked.
Speaker: I heard so many people say like, sure, I don't approve of like these things Mike had done before, but I felt so bad for her through that whole reunion.
Speaker: She looked so sad and sad.
Speaker: it it does just fundamentally change their thoughts about her and like so I asked Frida um who is like my personal ask an holistic person in my life I asked Frida like why doesn't it matter to people anymore like the things that they were mad about Micah doing just a few weeks ago we saw her bully people along with Irina but only Irina is getting criticized for that
Speaker: why doesn't that still matter to people?
Speaker: And she's like, because they feel bad for Micah.
Speaker: I'm like, but that doesn't erase the things that happened before.
Speaker: And Freda was like, yeah, it just kind of does.
Speaker: Cause now people feel bad for her.
Speaker: And that it clearly is also just, it's so different in how we react because I, even if I feel bad, even if I believed that she was genuinely sad, which I don't,
Speaker: That wouldn't, I would be like, I empathize with you in this situation, but I still criticize you for the previous ones, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that there's a lot of, like when it comes to compassion and who you feel bad for,
Speaker: I think for many people, it's not like a formula.
Speaker: It's not like, you know, I recognize you're human and so I extend this empathy to you.
Speaker: I think that it is a show.
Speaker: There's something kind of innate about like a show of vulnerability where it's like, I'm mad at you.
Speaker: I think you do bad things.
Speaker: And then they have this almost moment of like, you know, like when dogs are fighting and one like rolls over and shows their belly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And there's almost this automatic like, okay, that was all I needed.
Speaker: Like, I don't really want to bite you, but that's all I needed.
Speaker: Can I add something here?
Speaker: I feel like the issue became so big, partly, not partly, but mostly because of Vanessa Lachey.
Speaker: Vanessa Lachey seemed to be the one who was obsessed with babies and motherhood on the show.
Speaker: And I mean, to the point of, we could come back to this later, but to the point of making everyone very uncomfortable,
Speaker: And so the audience cringe.
Speaker: I feel like it was her to her.
Speaker: It meant a lot more even than Micah and Micah immediately was like, oh, this seems to be, you know, touching a nerve.
Speaker: Maybe.
Speaker: And the interviewer says the tone.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And and one of the things that I mean, there are definitely people who are neurodivergent who are watched the show and did feel bad about Micah.
Speaker: But I feel like a lot of neurotypical people and just people in general who identified with the sort of way that Micah conducted herself on the show, they needed an excuse to defend, to jump in and defend Micah.
Speaker: So there's a bunch of people who are doing that as well.
Speaker: Keep that in mind.
Speaker: Well, I think anybody who felt bad for Micah got plenty of justification with just what happened at the wedding.
Speaker: Because I think that did a lot for people where they started seeing her as this really the aggrieved party.
Speaker: Casey, did you watch season three of Love is Wine?
Speaker: I've watched them all.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So Josh hasn't seen it yet.
Speaker: I love the way.
Speaker: I just want to stop for a second and appreciate the way that Casey said, I've watched them all.
Speaker: Me too.
Speaker: And we'll get Josh there.
Speaker: But so there was a similar situation that happened in the reunion of season three with Cole, where Cole was set up as the villain and Vanessa laid into him and really spent a long time tearing him a new asshole.
Speaker: And it had a, it had a,
Speaker: a clearly damaging effect on his mental health.
Speaker: Like when we saw Cole after the show, he was a different person.
Speaker: He was, he was completely like, I mean, he was broken.
Speaker: He was destroyed.
Speaker: And so Vanessa has done this before where she has like specifically singled out one person who, and so for me, it is important that,
Speaker: It's pretty clear to me both of these guys are neurodivergent and that that is like a big reason why she doesn't like them.
Speaker: But even if we don't look at it that way, just the fact that she's singled out somebody before and it has basically caused them a mental health crisis.
Speaker: To do that again knowingly is really horrifying to me.
Speaker: And this is a show, by the way.
Speaker: With Paul specifically, though, like it was interesting because he resisted that.
Speaker: Like he was like to say that is just flat ridiculous.
Speaker: And I think that's another topic, right, which is like people read that as cocky when he was just being factual.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I thought it was ridiculous.
Speaker: Josh and I actually had an argument about it.
Speaker: I mean, one of the things, no, like there's this thing in, I mean, I'm from Afghanistan and we are huge lovers of Persian poetry.
Speaker: And there's this amazing poem in Persian, which says, if you, and I'm translating this, if you put the first, you know,
Speaker: if you put this foundation stone of a wall bent, no matter how far the wall goes, like no matter how long you build it, no matter how tall, it will always go bent because the foundation is bent.
Speaker: And so like,
Speaker: Micah, by just saying, I'm going to just defer to Paul over there and see what he says.
Speaker: Like, that's it.
Speaker: From that point on, you're the villain.
Speaker: You can't save yourself.
Speaker: Like you, you can turn it around.
Speaker: Yeah, you can, you can portray yourself as a, you know, as the aggrieved party, but you proved that you didn't really care enough for Paul to just immediately say yes.
Speaker: Like you should have seen Chelsea's face when she said yes.
Speaker: Like it was about to explode into like these butterflies and rainbows as she said yes.
Speaker: Well, and their stories didn't match up because she was saying like, I love him.
Speaker: I'm in love with him, but I'm not sure that he feels the same.
Speaker: And he was saying the same thing.
Speaker: I love her.
Speaker: I know that I'm in love with her, but she's not showing it to me back.
Speaker: And the reason why when I saw him sitting there and like, I really understand at a deep level what it's like to feel this, like you're blubbering, you're falling apart, you're demonstrating that you're in a lot of pain and
Speaker: And what you're looking for is for the person in front of you to demonstrate that they are affected by your pain.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And there's specific things that they think demonstrate that.
Speaker: And so when you don't see that, when you see, when you don't see that, you feel like that person is looking at you in pain and going, I feel nothing.
Speaker: And so the things that he did, though,
Speaker: Like when he said no, first of all, when he when he talked about like I was up till 2 a.m.
Speaker: going back and forth and back and forth, there's that like very analytical back and forth.
Speaker: Like if he didn't care, he wouldn't have done that.
Speaker: And then the second thing was at the altar, like after he says that and he follows her back.
Speaker: And he stands there and he has that like, you know, I'm not grabbing you.
Speaker: I'm not holding you.
Speaker: I'm not, but I'm here and I'm here and I'm here.
Speaker: And it just really resonated with so many interactions that I've had with people in my life where it's like, I'm not sure what you're looking for from me, but I'm here.
Speaker: I'm here.
Speaker: I may not be.
Speaker: I may not be blubbering.
Speaker: I may not be holding you.
Speaker: I may not be doing the things that you're looking for because I'm not even really sure what you're looking for, but I am here.
Speaker: I so identify with that.
Speaker: I 100% identify with that feeling of, hey, I don't exactly know what you need because you haven't communicated it to me, but I am here for you to communicate something so I could do it.
Speaker: Like, what do you need me to do?
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: And a lot of times neurotypical people, they think, but I already am communicating it to you.
Speaker: Or if you really loved me, you would already know.
Speaker: And that's based off of this idea that the neurotypical way of doing things is just the way that is right and makes sense.
Speaker: And also that subtext is something that is so real everyone should naturally pick it up.
Speaker: So she probably – what?
Speaker: Yeah, so I'm sorry to cut you off, Casey.
Speaker: I want you to continue after Erica's done.
Speaker: Oh, no worries.
Speaker: I'm an interrupter, so it never bothers me.
Speaker: Yeah, we are too.
Speaker: Because like, I'm always going to get my point and I'm not worried about it, right?
Speaker: You can interrupt.
Speaker: I'll circle back.
Speaker: But truly, like I had already and that's why because I read him as autistic, like when I was getting that feeling of like, man, I would experience this as cold.
Speaker: I would experience this as unfeeling.
Speaker: I would experience this as almost maybe even purposefully being not emotional so that you can see how little I care about you.
Speaker: But because I read him as autistic, I was filtering that then through the lens of
Speaker: Here's the way that he that I have seen him demonstrate in the way that he demonstrates that he did care.
Speaker: He did think hard.
Speaker: He did do what he thought was the right thing for her and for him both.
Speaker: And then I made a really good point just now that I want to just kind of highlight the idea that you might even interpret it as he's purposefully showing me how much he doesn't love me anymore by being this cold.
Speaker: That's really interesting because that's sort of that next step into understanding holistic thinking that like I can't always do.
Speaker: But like I'm glad you mentioned that because that probably is a way that a lot of people interpret it and why he comes off so bad.
Speaker: And that's something that I wouldn't even think of and I'm sure Paul wouldn't even think of.
Speaker: That idea that like I'm showing you I don't care on purpose.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It's a really common thing that happens in abusive dynamics.
Speaker: Like somebody doing something really hurtful to you and then you expressing pain and then them being like, I'm not moved by that.
Speaker: Like purposefully giving you like a stonewalling sort of like.
Speaker: And just the fact that he's coming off analytical seems like maybe that's the same thing.
Speaker: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker: That's really interesting.
Speaker: I'm glad you said that.
Speaker: There's also the fact that she, like, we found out about her ending things with Paul.
Speaker: So Paul was also talking from a place of, you know, having gone through that hurt.
Speaker: The thing is, I read Paul as devastated and sad.
Speaker: But that's also because I...
Speaker: Well, I think I experienced my emotions and thoughts in a very similar way that he does.
Speaker: So I look at his face and it doesn't look like a stone face to me.
Speaker: It looks like somebody in a lot of pain.
Speaker: But I understand that like this is something with tons of research behind it.
Speaker: We are humans in general are pretty good at interpreting the facial expressions and subtext of people of our same neurotype.
Speaker: And we're really bad at it across neurotype.
Speaker: So it makes sense that I interpret him that way, but a neurotypical person is not going to interpret him that way.
Speaker: So let me ask you this.
Speaker: How did you interpret his comments about not seeing her as a mother?
Speaker: Well, so...
Speaker: My first thought is that, like, of course, I know that, like, a lot of the things he said about his reasons for saying no are things that you just, like, shouldn't really say.
Speaker: But I also just because I worked in reality TV before –
Speaker: I think he's probably being asked these questions and that it's not like he just said that, said it out of nowhere is my guess.
Speaker: Um, because when you think about like, well, why would he say that?
Speaker: We're not seeing all the questions he's being asked by the producer.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But I also like to me, it makes sense that if you want to get married and have kids with somebody and you can't imagine actually having kids with that person or you don't think they would be a good parent, that would be a really big factor.
Speaker: And whether you would decide to marry them or not.
Speaker: And to me,
Speaker: I don't think she displayed a lot of nurturing traits.
Speaker: You know, I don't.
Speaker: She doesn't seem like she would.
Speaker: She certainly doesn't seem like she would be a good mother to a kid who is autistic, to a kid who would be like the kid Paul was.
Speaker: Maybe to a neurotypical child.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I don't really know neurotypical children.
Speaker: But, like, I think he was...
Speaker: justified.
Speaker: And I think also he was trying to say it in the nicest way possible.
Speaker: And Vanessa just kept asking him more and more questions.
Speaker: And he's at that point, like he's trying not to be mean.
Speaker: And I when people criticize the fact that he hadn't ever talked to her about that,
Speaker: I feel like, what are you supposed to say?
Speaker: I think you don't seem like you would be a good mother.
Speaker: Like, that's, it's not something you say to somebody.
Speaker: You just don't marry them, you know?
Speaker: So, like, I think he was actually doing the right thing.
Speaker: That is such a fascinating take.
Speaker: Like, I really appreciate hearing that because it's completely different than mine.
Speaker: Oh, cool.
Speaker: Because of course it seems so like, duh, to me.
Speaker: So what's, well, why, why is that a fascinating take to you?
Speaker: How does it seem to you?
Speaker: Well, I didn't think about the, the aspect of like being asked a question, right?
Speaker: So that if I pondered on that, it might change this answer, but I, I experienced him as being mean on purpose.
Speaker: And I think a lot of people did.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think that that's one of those things that's like kind of a dagger to the heart to tell a woman that wants children that she just doesn't seem like she'd be a very nurturing mother.
Speaker: And one of the reasons I think it's such an interesting case study is that
Speaker: I think that there's a lot there, like I mentioned, where it's like, hey, he's not being X. That's just, you know, he's autistic.
Speaker: Like you can't expect him to have a tone different than his natural tone.
Speaker: You can't.
Speaker: But what's interesting is I think sometimes in these conversations, it goes too far into like you can't hold an autistic person accountable for being mean.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker: Because there's always this like ace of spades of like, well, he just did.
Speaker: And to me, I thought, especially when they pushed him on it and he was giving like this explanation of, well, I didn't mean that she wasn't in herself a good mother, but I didn't bring that out of her.
Speaker: I was like, bullshit.
Speaker: That doesn't make sense.
Speaker: It is not logical.
Speaker: There is no part of that that makes sense with the language that he uses.
Speaker: And he uses language intentionally.
Speaker: In every other aspect, he's extremely descriptive.
Speaker: He's extremely specific.
Speaker: He knows what words mean and he uses them in the right context.
Speaker: I agree.
Speaker: I think that was kind of bullshit because he's trying to soften it.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And so he's doing this like –
Speaker: No, because I think that that's what he would have said when they asked.
Speaker: Like, I think he would have said, ultimately, I just don't think, like, I couldn't see us being parents.
Speaker: But he didn't.
Speaker: He specifically said she would not be nurturing as a mother.
Speaker: I mean, I don't think she would.
Speaker: I think she's mean.
Speaker: And, like, to me, it made a huge impact on my perception of her.
Speaker: the way that she acted when she introduced him to her friends and they were mean to him and she just threw him under the bus.
Speaker: And so like, although I wouldn't, of course, just say, I know like you're not supposed to say those things about people.
Speaker: I don't think he's wrong to think that.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: I don't think he's wrong to think that either.
Speaker: So, but in that moment where he's being asked to like explain why he said that,
Speaker: What is he supposed to do besides kind of try and soften it?
Speaker: Because how I interpret it was like, because I was like, what the fuck do they want from him?
Speaker: And then I thought, oh, they want him to take it back.
Speaker: They want him to say, no, she would be a great mother.
Speaker: But he can't do that because it's not true.
Speaker: Oh, I thought, I think what they wanted him to do was to go, you know what?
Speaker: That was shitty of me to say.
Speaker: But he did.
Speaker: I was heated.
Speaker: I was upset.
Speaker: But he said that.
Speaker: He said I shouldn't have said it in that way because that's not how I meant it.
Speaker: And I just am of the opinion.
Speaker: I think he I think it was a cheap jab.
Speaker: And because like, here's the thing.
Speaker: He said so many things in the reunion that were that like if that's what he meant, I think he would have said that.
Speaker: And if if he if he knows that it would be hurtful to say to her personally.
Speaker: But then he said it on national television and.
Speaker: in front of everyone that was going to hear him say, I have judged her.
Speaker: And, and she has come up as I've judged her as going to be a bad mother.
Speaker: To me, those aren't congruent.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: Yeah, I wanted to talk about that comment.
Speaker: And I honestly, we live in a culture where we're all constantly being boiled down to our most essential purpose, not purpose, but like we're boiled down to some essentials which are imposed on us, which is men are supposed to be, you know, creating like
Speaker: being like having the ability to make babies and women having the ability to you know create babies those are the two genders this is how all this works out blah blah blah we are working to like change that but we still have those two things essentialized like and they are essentialized the way that you can use them as an insult like telling a man that he's not quote unquote man enough is basically saying you are unable to like
Speaker: fertile quote unquote fertilize because you are just you're not able to do that and that is like the worst insult and so yeah we saw with marshall and jackie it was like yeah the absence of their conflict yeah yeah and which they did not they did not talk enough about how like what a shitty way that she treated him by saying stuff like that
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think Vanessa was team Jackie and it was like weirdly obvious.
Speaker: Yeah, it was weird.
Speaker: Yeah, I feel like Vanessa was definitely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So here I feel like Paul could have said it a lot better.
Speaker: He could have just said, I just didn't see us having kids together or I felt like.
Speaker: I wanted to have babies immediately or I didn't feel like she was ready to have kids.
Speaker: Things like that as opposed to just flat out saying this person is just in that category and the most important thing that the culture tells us that someone is, this person fails.
Speaker: Do we account for the fact that he's like
Speaker: just speaking off the cuff and then on an like emotional day and not like he thought about how am I going to answer this question?
Speaker: I can't.
Speaker: That's not what I can answer.
Speaker: What I can answer is under normal circumstances, this is not something that you should be saying to people in this way.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: I think most people agree.
Speaker: Like it's not very nice.
Speaker: I guess for me, I just thought also like –
Speaker: We all phrase things in a way that is like not the nicest way to say it when we're just talking and things are running out of your brain, you know?
Speaker: When I read him, actually, he's very emotional in that moment.
Speaker: For sure, yeah.
Speaker: And whether or not this is an autistic thing or not, I think this is an analytical people thing, like people who tend to intellectualize things a lot and think really deeply from an analytical standpoint, which I identify with that aspect of.
Speaker: I think sometimes we tend to, like when we're being reactive because we're having feelings, yeah.
Speaker: we almost kind of deny to ourselves that that's what we're doing.
Speaker: And we go, well, no, I'm just speaking about what I see, or I'm just observing, or I just this, or I just that.
Speaker: And that was an interesting experience for me with Paul, where it was like, okay, here are places where I'm having an emotional reaction to him, where I'm thinking, no, hold back, Casey.
Speaker: Like you're not, like you're not using the right translator to interpret that behavior.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And if I switch over to like assuming that he's autistic.
Speaker: OK, well, now that behavior, I'm reading it differently.
Speaker: I think we see that with Marshall several times because like Marshall tends to be careful in how he talks and he tends to be quite kind.
Speaker: But then a few times when he gets emotional, he says things that are mean.
Speaker: Yeah, I think the difference is that he does all of the neurotypical signaling for I am emotional right now.
Speaker: Yeah, he has a very expressive face for sure.
Speaker: I feel like I'm 100% with you on this.
Speaker: The signaling was really, really bad.
Speaker: And Maiko just signaled perfectly in response.
Speaker: She's really good at it because like even the fact that they played a video of Micah and Irina together being mean and then Irina, nobody like bought her show of contrition.
Speaker: People laughed when she was like, I need a minute and kind of like was pretending to cry or maybe pretending to cry.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then Micah just like, I think she's a better actress.
Speaker: I think she's like, she knows what to do with her face and her voice.
Speaker: And so to the point that like, I don't feel confident always declaring whether I believe her or not, because like, I don't know.
Speaker: I must have been the only person in the country that bought Irina's reaction.
Speaker: And I'm not saying that she's like, oh my God, she's like a, she's a different person now.
Speaker: She'll never do it again.
Speaker: I do to a certain extent, but I think, I think she definitely feels like shit.
Speaker: But I think a lot of that is because having that negative of a reaction to you from so many people would just feel really, really bad.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But what I've seen from just like, I guess, personal experiences and just like as a therapist, like there's so many emotionally immature people that I've interacted with.
Speaker: And there's this thing that she did where she didn't try to justify her behavior.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: She showed that she was experiencing pain from everyone hating her.
Speaker: And the fact that she was just literally able to tolerate how horrible that felt without lashing out or without being defensive or without sort of doing some like game playing.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Like, and again, I'm not saying that I would trust her to like, I wouldn't be a friend.
Speaker: I wouldn't trust her.
Speaker: I don't think she's a miraculously different person.
Speaker: You will not let her babysit your kids.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But I actually thought, you know what?
Speaker: That's probably the best you can expect someone to show up.
Speaker: Like if that's their behavior.
Speaker: I believe her more than Micah for sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because I also thought it was interesting that like, and this didn't seem to bother most people, that everybody else besides Micah,
Speaker: gave some kind of credit to the other person when discussing, like, the conflict that they had.
Speaker: And so Irina said a lot of kind things about Zack and Bliss and sort of, like, saw and defended their perspective somewhat.
Speaker: And Micah's the only one that, like, she gave Paul nothing.
Speaker: It was never, like...
Speaker: There was no admission that maybe what he is saying has any kind of value.
Speaker: And I thought that was interesting because everybody else did that.
Speaker: Even like Chelsea gave Micah way, way, way too much credit in my opinion.
Speaker: And Michael was just like, great.
Speaker: I'm running with this.
Speaker: I'm the victim and a good person.
Speaker: And people were like, yes, I agree.
Speaker: I buy this because she's good at like doing the right things with her face and her voice.
Speaker: And it drives me nuts.
Speaker: She's such an interesting character because she seemed like, like at first it seemed like she was someone who maybe was like,
Speaker: that like arena just brought out the worst in her you know what i mean like oh she just like shouldn't click up with that person but now when i look back at the whole season i really have the opinion that like arena is a mean girl from a place of um pain pain and i think that micah is a mean girl from a place of entitlement yeah i'm with you on the entitlement part yeah
Speaker: 100%.
Speaker: I personally, like, and Micah has seemed to me this way through the whole season.
Speaker: I think she's manipulative and enjoys playing with other people's feelings.
Speaker: And I think she wants to win socially, you know?
Speaker: And I think, like,
Speaker: Like the way she strung along Kwame when she didn't really want him.
Speaker: She just wanted him to keep wanting her.
Speaker: And like they acted like the only thing she did wrong was like make that one joke at the pool.
Speaker: And I thought like she I think part of why Irina got so much more criticism than Micah is just because Chelsea wants to.
Speaker: that conflict to be over.
Speaker: And so she did not press Micah.
Speaker: Whereas like Zach and Bliss still had things they wanted to talk about with Irina.
Speaker: Because like, if I was Chelsea, I'd be like, well, what about when you put your hand on Kwame's chin to move his face closer to you?
Speaker: She never took accountability for how obviously in that moment, she was like, I should have picked Kwame.
Speaker: Yeah, she's unbelievably inappropriate.
Speaker: And she does it again at Chelsea's birthday.
Speaker: And they didn't make her talk about any of that.
Speaker: And I get why Chelsea, like Chelsea chose to marry Kwame.
Speaker: She wants to stay married to Kwame.
Speaker: She does not want to be upset about these things that happened in the past.
Speaker: I think like I kind of understand why Chelsea and Kwame are rewriting history a little bit for themselves.
Speaker: And I'm like, go ahead.
Speaker: I'll let you do it.
Speaker: Because like you're already married.
Speaker: Why stay upset about these things?
Speaker: But like I don't think it's fair to then let Micah off the hook for all that or to not just keep that in mind when we look at her as a person because she has a pattern of
Speaker: of manipulating people, of playing with their emotions.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And I think they must have edited – Of like pretending to feel one way and then acting another way when people aren't there.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: And I think they must have edited some of like Chelsea and Kwame's story to tell a narrative because I genuinely – For sure.
Speaker: Did not think he was into her until he said yes at the altar.
Speaker: And I don't mean that him saying yes made me think that.
Speaker: I mean the way he said yes and the way he was behaving right after he said yes.
Speaker: I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker: He really loved her.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've seen that a lot from like most – I think the more typical response to them was that like people were shocked that he said yes and they thought he wasn't into Chelsea at all.
Speaker: And that's not how Josh and I saw it.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Like we weren't surprised that he said yes, but most people were.
Speaker: The second his sister came in, I was like, oh, this is happening.
Speaker: This is 100% happening.
Speaker: You will not – a Ghanaian man is not going to like embarrass his sister like that.
Speaker: Like, it's just not happening.
Speaker: And I don't even know that it was.
Speaker: I think I was biased towards seeing him that way because my initial impression of her was that at the last second she was just like, oh, no, I'm not going to be on the show.
Speaker: Who can I grab on to before I get cut?
Speaker: And maybe I always read her as like madly in love with Kwame.
Speaker: Yeah, I read her as like, I just want someone and I love being loved and I love that I am in a relationship.
Speaker: Hooray.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I didn't feel that way.
Speaker: No, I felt like she was really definitely 100% into Kwame.
Speaker: She was at points.
Speaker: I think they kept trying to, like you said, I 100% agree with you and Erica and I have talked about this.
Speaker: They tried to make it look like he was not into Chelsea with strategic cuts.
Speaker: Like she would ask him a question about, do you love me?
Speaker: And he would give the sheepish smile and then cut.
Speaker: And they could have edited the smile from any other point in the conversation.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: It felt like it was completely fake, unrelated to what was happening.
Speaker: But he... The way that she was expressing herself was very... It was beautiful to see.
Speaker: I really loved the way that we were doing this.
Speaker: It's very interesting.
Speaker: I wonder if that's just like... We're seeing the same things as far as vocal tone and eye contact.
Speaker: And it's like...
Speaker: None of us can be right or wrong because like we're interpreting something based off of like how it intuitively comes off to us, not based off like any sort of verifiable facts.
Speaker: Yeah, because I just read it as incongruent.
Speaker: And again, like, and I think they made a good point where it's like you literally see 1% of like how we experience this experiment.
Speaker: So what they showed to us of their interactions was,
Speaker: I read as like, it doesn't seem like those type of legitimate feelings could have developed from what they just showed us.
Speaker: And so her, and it doesn't seem like they're matched in intensity.
Speaker: And so I read it as incongruent.
Speaker: And so I read it as someone who is just so excited to be in a relationship that it really kind of could have been anybody.
Speaker: That is really interesting because, yeah, she came off completely different to me.
Speaker: And, like, I didn't like Chelsea right at the very beginning of the show just because I thought she was, like, kind of basic and boring.
Speaker: And I'm like, eh, whatever, Chelsea.
Speaker: But, like, I liked how much she was into Kwame.
Speaker: Like, that was what I ended up liking about her.
Speaker: And I guess that's one of those things that just, like, trying to interpret
Speaker: if someone's feelings are genuine or not is one of those things that I, I think we should always keep in mind that we can't know for sure.
Speaker: Um, but it is interesting that like, there is such a difference there and just whether that feels genuine.
Speaker: Cause to me, her feelings for Kwame seem totally genuine, but I know a lot of people agree with you.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Also, the way she looked at him.
Speaker: How did you feel about that?
Speaker: Because a lot of people thought it was very weird, the way she looks at him.
Speaker: I felt like I understand that.
Speaker: That's just when you're so in love with somebody that you're staring at, you can't stop looking at them.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So here's what I think happened there.
Speaker: So I will say this.
Speaker: The way that he acted at the altar, the way he acted at the reunion, I was like, this isn't even the same person I felt like I was watching, which is what led me to believe that it was edited in such a way to make – that's what they wanted you to think, that you could have a surprise at the altar.
Speaker: Because frankly, it's boring when you know what everyone's going to do.
Speaker: It's the will they want they edit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: However, I think the reason why everyone read her that way is because, yes, staring at someone like that is indicative of how much you love them.
Speaker: But the thing is, is that they did not give us very many scenes of him staring at her that way.
Speaker: So it looks like this.
Speaker: And in fact, I think a lot of us have had an experience of being with someone that is
Speaker: super into us in such a fast way that internally we have some alarm bells going off because we feel like, uh, they couldn't be into me that quickly.
Speaker: Like, are they just looking for something else?
Speaker: Are they just wanting someone and, or somebody that kind of falls in love with you so fast that you're like, Whoa, Whoa, do you even know me?
Speaker: Or are you just looking for someone to fill this slot?
Speaker: And so I think that they always showed him.
Speaker: And again, also maybe this is cultural, right?
Speaker: But they always showed him like she would stare at him and he would be like, smile and then like look away.
Speaker: Almost like this intensity makes me uncomfortable.
Speaker: I never assumed that he probably stares at her that much too.
Speaker: Like I'm with you on that.
Speaker: I do think probably she looks at him that way a lot more than he looks at her.
Speaker: But I didn't necessarily read those like in the same way you did because I did feel like he had
Speaker: genuine feelings for her.
Speaker: Um, but yeah, not everybody like, just not everybody like looks at people that way, even less not to like put my mom on blast, but like my mom will look at me that way.
Speaker: And wait, I don't look at her that way.
Speaker: She was, cause I'm a baby.
Speaker: She'll just be like, I'd love you so much.
Speaker: And I'm like, hi mom.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Um, but like, they, they, they were, they were each other's second choice.
Speaker: Well, who did Chelsea want before Kwame?
Speaker: I can't remember.
Speaker: I don't remember her being interested in anybody else.
Speaker: I feel like she was Kwame right off the bat.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't think Chelsea was interested in anyone else.
Speaker: Maybe that's what it was then.
Speaker: Like, I felt like his first pick was Micah.
Speaker: And then he didn't get it.
Speaker: But then Chelsea was there.
Speaker: And Chelsea was, like, adoring.
Speaker: And he was like, well, this girl likes me.
Speaker: And so, like, that's kind of how I read it.
Speaker: And then I also –
Speaker: I think that they showed us so many conversations of her talking about how in love they were that I kind of got a like, me thinks the lady doth protest too much sort of like feel about it.
Speaker: Like she was really trying to convince us and her.
Speaker: But I think I was wrong.
Speaker: I think that they edited it in a way to give a completely different narrative.
Speaker: How did they come off to you in the reunion?
Speaker: He came off as...
Speaker: I, as someone who, like they said, like I'm a grown man who would never be trapped by something like this.
Speaker: Like I love this woman.
Speaker: I respect this woman.
Speaker: I have an equal power dynamic to this woman.
Speaker: Like I think they tried to edit Chelsea to be kind of a nag, like an overpowering, I have a stick up my butt.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, and I'm kind of,
Speaker: I'm overpowering him just energy wise and he's kind of going along and he doesn't want to have marriage.
Speaker: And did we talk about that scene where Micah and Chelsea supposedly talk about, I mean, they talk about the issue with about Kwame and we were never shown this scene.
Speaker: Like the show literally withheld this from us until the reunion.
Speaker: Yeah, when they talk.
Speaker: When Chelsea and Micah talk.
Speaker: To me, that meant it just didn't mean anything because they only really talked about Micah making that joke.
Speaker: And like that is one tiny fraction of the stuff that was a problem.
Speaker: And so I was like, good for them that they decided that that was a resolution.
Speaker: But like I don't think that that accounted for like Micah's part of it.
Speaker: That had the producer made me go over there and talk to her about this written all over it, I think.
Speaker: yeah um i personally as as a viewer would like to uh ask the network well netflix to never do this again please that was that was really shitty oh they always will they always will because that's the thing i think people underestimate sort of like how fucked up reality tv can be um because like
Speaker: I, so I used to work in reality TV.
Speaker: I was a transcriber.
Speaker: So I made, uh, zero like choices.
Speaker: I had no input, but I got to watch all of the footage, all the raw unedited footage, including, I would see a lot of times like producers would say, don't worry, the cameras are off.
Speaker: It's just you and me talking.
Speaker: And then there's me like, Ooh, in my apartment and typing all of this really uncomfortable.
Speaker: Um, and so they do, they manipulate the storylines a lot.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: Love is Blind is not alone in that at all.
Speaker: And so that's why I noticed a lot of editing tricks, especially as the relationship went on between Kwame and Chelsea, it got to a point where every time...
Speaker: They were cut – we were seeing, like, an awkward face from Kwame.
Speaker: It was, like, a single shot cut that was, like, well, he could have made that face at any time.
Speaker: He didn't necessarily make that face right after she said that, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so got to a point where I was, like, I just don't know what's actually happening between them because I don't think we can know one way or the other.
Speaker: Well, and that's the whole conversation, too, about, like, if some of these contestants are autistic –
Speaker: Walking into a scenario where they are going to be, everyone is going to be manipulated by the producers because their job is to tell an interesting story that has drama.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that, you know, knowing that going in,
Speaker: is important.
Speaker: And as a person, I would rather... As a viewer, it's important to remember that too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I would rather, like if I was on the show, I would rather the producers sit us down and be like, listen, here's the deal.
Speaker: We're going to tell your love story, but please be aware.
Speaker: This is reality TV.
Speaker: Our job is to show a story that sells.
Speaker: And so like you guys need to take like the mental health steps appropriate to know that like the character you end up getting cast as is going to affect the way you're treated by people.
Speaker: And like you just need to be you need to get in a place where you know how to cope with that.
Speaker: Yeah, but instead they're going to pretend to be their best friend so that it will open up more.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so I think that there's a real ethical issue with that with anyone, but especially if you are bringing on contestants that are autistic, that might have a more difficult time picking up on some of the signaling that somebody is not doing something with your best interest.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that that has happened every season.
Speaker: And I mean, it's a reason why I wanted to talk about all of this, because every season I feel like I have seen neurodivergent people being villainized.
Speaker: And both by people like other cast members on the show and just the way that they're then presented by the producers and the way they're seen by the audience.
Speaker: And I think it's important to like point out what else could be happening.
Speaker: And it's interesting how I guess I can't even really put my mind in like the perspective of somebody who doesn't know anything about how reality TV works because I just always have known that.
Speaker: But like I because I was listening to one podcast that when they were talking about, I guess it was still the first episode when Tiffany fell asleep and they were like, well, wouldn't the producers like tell him?
Speaker: I'm like, no, of course not.
Speaker: Of course not.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The producers know she fell asleep.
Speaker: They're not going to tell him that.
Speaker: If anything, he might, because, you know, they actually communicate with like microphones and speakers.
Speaker: They can't just hear each other through the wall.
Speaker: So he might have asked, like, did the technology fail or something?
Speaker: And they'll tell him it didn't fail because that makes it worse.
Speaker: That makes him more stressed.
Speaker: They're never going to tell him the thing that is true and comforting because, you
Speaker: That isn't how you create the most drama.
Speaker: And I think I really wish that like viewers knew that and would keep it in mind when they're interpreting people.
Speaker: I also think that's true of just like talking about this show in general.
Speaker: Like I, you know, I'm not someone who thinks that just because you're a public figure that like every part of your life is fair game to like speculate and talk about this and that and the other.
Speaker: But like there's a difference between saying, oh, I am an actor or I make TikTok content about this subject and like feeling as though people shouldn't comment on your marriage or your relationship.
Speaker: Like I think that's valid.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: If you get married because of Love is Blind, people do get to comment on you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, I think they were a little too, like, you guys just shouldn't, you know, have so many opinions.
Speaker: It was a year ago.
Speaker: It's not about it anymore.
Speaker: Just let it go.
Speaker: And I'm like, oh, I don't know.
Speaker: I think maybe, like, your relationship is fair game a little bit because, like, that's literally what the reality show you signed up for.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so, and in my head, it's like, they're real people.
Speaker: So I don't want to say anything dehumanizing about them.
Speaker: I don't go to their like personal social pages and like tell them my opinion on them.
Speaker: But I also, I think,
Speaker: maybe recognize and hold that like we're kind of talking about fictional characters because like yes we don't actually know who these people really are and i'm like comfortable with that like i think the part of the entertainment is that you're supposed to have thoughts and feelings and hot takes and i think um the way that like
Speaker: You can get, you can put up a TikTok and it gets 60 positive comments and one negative comment.
Speaker: And a lot of people will only focus on that one negative comment.
Speaker: And then they'll even make videos responding to that one negative comment.
Speaker: And sometimes like it'll...
Speaker: make me think like, hey, can you stop focusing on that one person?
Speaker: Like all of us made time to watch your video and tell us what we thought.
Speaker: And like, but people do tend to focus on the worst thing, even if it's a small minority of the responses that they've gotten.
Speaker: So I think too, probably the cast members on Love is Blind are getting some feedback
Speaker: reactions and some things that are happening that are so far beyond what most people are doing.
Speaker: So that's kind of what they're reacting to.
Speaker: Like some of them are probably getting like harassed, their moms are getting harassed or getting like, and so that's what they're talking about.
Speaker: And we feel like they're talking about us because they're not keeping in mind that like most of us are not doing those really over the line things.
Speaker: And we're probably not necessarily even talking about the same thing.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Well, and then especially when you talk about like the TikTok reply videos where it's like, why do they harp on this one thing?
Speaker: I think that there's also this assumption of like...
Speaker: um you have to also think about like well some creators are doing it because they're aware that that is what gains the most traction so it isn't even like oh they're they're not paying attention to all the positive comments they're only thinking about the it's more like or they know how the business runs
Speaker: right?
Speaker: Like their job is to create videos that get the most engagement and they know.
Speaker: I guess I'm mostly actually thinking about people that like, I kind of know who they don't.
Speaker: I, I, I, you're absolutely right.
Speaker: And I know what you're talking about.
Speaker: You're talking about the, when you like spin out.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just like normal people, like people who are friends of mine and stuff.
Speaker: And then they will be, yeah, absolutely focusing on the one mean thing somebody said to them.
Speaker: And like, it's,
Speaker: destroying their like their week they're thinking about it all week long i've done both like i've done the very calculated like i'm not bothered by this but this will be good engagement and i've done the like i need someone to remove this app off my phone for a day because i cannot stop perseverating on this one thing this person said um
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And sometimes we'll take it to heart and then like, am I really annoying?
Speaker: And like one person said you were annoying and 300 people told you that they were so glad you said that and they love you.
Speaker: You know, like maybe let's not take the meanest thing to heart.
Speaker: And so –
Speaker: I do wonder if that's kind of part of it.
Speaker: And I think too, like we had a pretty neurodivergent cast this season, which maybe is partly because of where they were.
Speaker: Like Seattle has like a big tech industry and it seems reasonable to me that it might just like attract neurodivergent people there.
Speaker: And neurodivergent people do tend to be a little more
Speaker: Well, I mean, just naive about the ways that some people are going to behave and act.
Speaker: And I don't mean that as an insult because obviously I have been and am that way too.
Speaker: And we just tend to like kind of that literal thinking.
Speaker: They're like, okay, I'm going on a show to find love.
Speaker: And they just sort of only think about like that part of it and not necessarily all of the other things that are going to come along with it.
Speaker: And that that also includes maybe you will be edited to look like you have a completely different personality than you do.
Speaker: And then people are going to take that seriously and then interact with you forever based off of that.
Speaker: Like they're just not taking all of that into account.
Speaker: Whereas somebody who...
Speaker: is going on to the show just because they want to be on TV.
Speaker: They want to be a public figure.
Speaker: They want that sort of, they want to build an audience.
Speaker: They are taking that stuff into account somewhat.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And this is totally off topic, but I just wanted to go back to something I said because I thought about it.
Speaker: Please do.
Speaker: So in the clinical literature about autism, we reference irregularities in eye contact.
Speaker: And so I used that language just because I'm so used to hearing it.
Speaker: And I thought about it during the show.
Speaker: And I think I wish I would have just said differences in eye contact because I really don't like language that implies that there's like a right way and a wrong way.
Speaker: And the truth is it's not regular eye contact and irregular eye contact.
Speaker: It's just differences in eye contact.
Speaker: And it's not that
Speaker: one is normal and one's not.
Speaker: I think what it is that I pick up on is that there's an intuitive way that neurotypical people make eye contact and there's an intuitive way that many autistic people make eye contact.
Speaker: And I can sometimes notice when an autistic person is attempting to mimic what is not intuitive to them.
Speaker: And it's hard because we sort of come across the same thing sometimes.
Speaker: We're like, the only language that we have to describe these phenomena is a language about... Deficit.
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: And that is frustrating because sometimes it's like you have to use the language that people...
Speaker: know, even though it doesn't, it has connotations that you don't really mean.
Speaker: And this plays into this idea too, that like, it's unacceptable to ever point out that somebody like in this show or just somebody you don't know seems to be neurodivergent or is using a neurodivergent communication style to notice those things and call them what you know them to be.
Speaker: will make people mad, like, because we've been given only one framework to look at them, which is, this is a medical thing, and it's a disorder.
Speaker: And like, that is, I mean, it's something that I just don't agree with.
Speaker: But it's also, I think it's, it's really problematic, because then we can't, we can't acknowledge that, like,
Speaker: There are just different ways to be a person and not exactly like this is something that is a difference.
Speaker: But if we can only talk about it in this disorder framing, then like we're just adding to that idea that like people who are like this are wrong and shouldn't be that way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think you can recognize those traits in someone.
Speaker: And like, I don't even think that anyone is saying, oh, he is or he isn't autistic or they are, they aren't autistic or divergent.
Speaker: It's just that like that in fact is a trait we commonly see in autistic people.
Speaker: and the experience that this person seems to be having, oh God, can I relate to that?
Speaker: And here's why.
Speaker: And here are the times that I've had this experience.
Speaker: And this is a really great illustration of why we need to be aware of these things.
Speaker: And I mean, I think that you guys do that beautifully.
Speaker: But I've seen that people get really bent out of shape about like armchair diagnosing.
Speaker: And it's like, no, just observations and conversation.
Speaker: And I want to add something about the eye movement in that
Speaker: There's the only reason that I was not diagnosed as autistic clinically is because I was told that I make eye contact.
Speaker: that if I was truly autistic, I would not make eye contact.
Speaker: And I was like, are you like serious?
Speaker: Is this really the thing?
Speaker: And they were like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Literally one of the things, one of the ways to, like one of the criteria that you have to fulfill in order to be diagnosed as autistic was that you don't make eye contact.
Speaker: Which is ridiculous because it's not.
Speaker: Like the DSM criteria for autism, like there's three main categories and it is the deficits in social communication or social communication, repetitive and restrictive interests, behaviors, and patterns.
Speaker: And I've blanked on the third one and I don't want to be wrong about it.
Speaker: But the point is, is that when you read the one about what they refer to as deficits in social stuff, nowhere in there does it say that.
Speaker: Like that not making eye contact is criteria.
Speaker: They list it as an example that may or may not be present, but it's like a long list of examples.
Speaker: And so it makes me really upset when people, when I hear people's experiences like that, where a professional told them, well, you can't be autistic.
Speaker: She make eye contact.
Speaker: Oh, she can't.
Speaker: She can't be autistic.
Speaker: She's so loving and cuddly and she makes eye contact.
Speaker: She's so affectionate.
Speaker: It's like, okay.
Speaker: Show me in the DSM where it says that not that being not liking affection is a criteria.
Speaker: It's really a huge problem.
Speaker: I mean, I've heard from so because I talk a lot about like I personally am not a proponent of getting a medical diagnosis of autism unless you have you are in a specific situation where like there are accommodations that you need for.
Speaker: and will get from that diagnosis.
Speaker: I think it causes way more problems than it solves.
Speaker: And I also just personally, I don't think that like neurotypical people have the right to define us and to tell us who we are.
Speaker: I just like, I, I'm not willing to give over that agency.
Speaker: I do.
Speaker: And I don't, I don't think that like,
Speaker: being autistic is something that is inherently a diagnosis.
Speaker: Like I see it as an identification thing, you know?
Speaker: So like personally I say, I am self-identified as autistic, not self-diagnosed unless people don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker: And then I'll have to explain that it's like self-diagnosed.
Speaker: Um, but, uh,
Speaker: I forgot what I was going to say.
Speaker: Honestly, I forgot where I was going with that.
Speaker: I'm picking up what you're putting down.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's just like because there's only this one view of what kind of – even though we already know.
Speaker: And even doctors know.
Speaker: It's well known within the medical community that
Speaker: there is a disparity in like who is actually getting diagnosed with autism and that it's like, it's a way too biased towards white people and people signed mail at birth and like, and then other people that either just don't get diagnosed with anything or they'll get diagnosed with something like oppositional defiance disorder, you know, because there's a lot of times it's like white professionals see the exact same behavior and
Speaker: in a black kid and they see that as, um, as something like oppositional defiance, which, uh, is really honestly a very pretty horrifying way to see a child.
Speaker: Um, and because we're not even allowed to acknowledge like all the people around you all the time who are autistic, all the other ways that being autistic can present, um,
Speaker: then that just reinforces this stereotype.
Speaker: And it also reinforces the idea that autistic people are...
Speaker: are incapable of just like being part of the world that people like the fact that there is a show the good doctor which is like what if an autistic person was a doctor i'm like i dare you to find a hospital without an autistic doctor you fucking kidding me it will be like a den of psychopaths if you took out the autistic people i would be more like find me a neurotypical doctor
Speaker: Yeah, it's like when it comes to care, caregiving stuff, it's almost all autistic people.
Speaker: I mean, there are a lot of industries that just like it's more of us than it's not.
Speaker: And so but part of the issue is like, oh, I remember what I was going to say when I said I forgot what I was going to say.
Speaker: Because of that, like, we don't know how to read facial expressions and all of that for people of a neurotype different from us.
Speaker: That
Speaker: means that like false impressions that a neurotypical person gets from attempting to read the facial expressions of an autistic person, that ends up becoming a conclusion that that's then part of the description of autism.
Speaker: So like, that's why a lot of people think that autistic people don't have empathy, even though
Speaker: There's a ton of research that shows that's not true, but it's because of exactly what we've been talking about with like, you look at Paul in the reunion show and if you're not autistic, he looks like he doesn't have any feelings.
Speaker: And that isn't true, but.
Speaker: It looks that way.
Speaker: And so we're just we're categorizing people, identifying them based off of the perspective of one kind of person, not like an objective truth.
Speaker: Casey, do you feel like this was a more neurodivergent heavy cast possibly this season than what we've seen on Love is Blind before or what we see on reality TV in general?
Speaker: You know, it was interesting because I watched this season of Love is Blind.
Speaker: I was on a trip with a friend and we watched this season.
Speaker: We like binged it.
Speaker: And then we ran out and we were like, let's watch something else.
Speaker: So we turned on Married at First Sight.
Speaker: And I can't remember what season it was, but it was like, it felt like
Speaker: There was like six people that read to both me and my friend as autistic.
Speaker: And we were like, what is going on?
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I actually just watched that same season.
Speaker: So I'm trying to remember what it is, like 12 or 14 or something.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: One with Bennett.
Speaker: Yeah, I definitely...
Speaker: You know, and I mean, people who are neurodivergent show up in so many different ways.
Speaker: So I don't want to say that like there's more or less.
Speaker: I will.
Speaker: I do want to say that like I haven't had a season before where I felt like there people were reading autistic to me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which isn't to say there wasn't just in like, you know, things that I noticed.
Speaker: And I noticed it were like a few different people.
Speaker: Yeah, I would say there have been previous seasons of Love is Blind where I'm like, I am sure that this person is neurodivergent.
Speaker: I'm like, maybe autistic, but I don't know.
Speaker: And then this is the first season where I'm like, I don't care how inappropriate it is.
Speaker: I will just like Paul and Zach.
Speaker: I know, I know.
Speaker: Because also they've just said enough, has revealed enough of their, like, the way they think and how their feelings work and stuff.
Speaker: And just specific things that I, specific words and phrases even that I have heard over and over and over again from autistic people and only autistic people.
Speaker: And that's the first time I would say I've, like, felt that way with Love is Blind.
Speaker: Because, like, I definitely thought that...
Speaker: Cole was neurodivergent and that was a big reason why like he was so villainized last season but I can't say more than that you know I don't know and I think the same thing about Shane I think honestly a lot of times sadly if you just look at like
Speaker: Who has been the bad guy?
Speaker: I do think this show has a habit or a history of villainizing people specifically based off of neurodivergent traits and neurodivergent communication styles.
Speaker: And that is really, that's too bad.
Speaker: But also it's like, there's so much that we can learn from that if we acknowledge it.
Speaker: And then we can, because that happens to neurodivergent people all the time, just in our lives.
Speaker: And like Shane has talked publicly about having ADHD and he was really horrified and really hurt by the way that people like,
Speaker: made fun of him about things that like he he knows are specifically because he has adhd like he said um and a lot of people they you're like oh he's on drugs and whatever and like i don't know he says he's not it's also like i'm not down to shame people for drugs either but he made a really good point where he's like you take somebody with adhd and you put them in like a small room
Speaker: And there's nothing even really to focus on or do.
Speaker: And then you have to be in there for eight hours.
Speaker: Like, that's just not natural for me.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I'm going to, like, pace around.
Speaker: And I don't understand why people thought it was okay to make fun of me for that.
Speaker: I think it was particularly...
Speaker: Interesting that, you know, the people that ended up being villainized tended to have neurodivergent traits and they got focused on.
Speaker: And the reason why the part that was so like shitty about it was that it always happened when there was another cast member who was far more malicious.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: And it was like, wait a minute, this person over here is like the real villain of the story.
Speaker: But it's just easier from a societal perspective to point to the person that is weird or odd or cold or any number of traits that they would sort of point to.
Speaker: Well, I think it's like there is an aspect of if somebody is like more openly malicious, but they are of your neurotype, they are still just more.
Speaker: You understand them more.
Speaker: They're more comprehensible to you than this other person who is just like weird and you don't understand why they do what they do.
Speaker: So like, yeah, there, if somebody was being malicious, but in a way that is like fairly normalized within, um, neurotypical society, then, uh, that person didn't really get focused on.
Speaker: Um, but like, uh, that would probably be true.
Speaker: Like I would probably, let's say also it's quite possible.
Speaker: Like maybe Paul was being mean on purpose.
Speaker: Like maybe your interpretation is correct.
Speaker: But I understand him, so I am defending him and not seeing him as the villain.
Speaker: It's quite possible that that's not like, oh, neurotypicals will defend a villain just because they're neurotypical.
Speaker: Maybe we all would do that.
Speaker: I don't really know.
Speaker: I think this has been so fucking interesting.
Speaker: And I... I don't know.
Speaker: I just... I love that we kind of get to, like, hear a perspective.
Speaker: I also... I love hearing, like, why...
Speaker: My own perspective might be weird or make no sense because it makes so much sense to me.
Speaker: So I appreciate you telling your reaction.
Speaker: Yeah, I was fascinated by that.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: We had been talking about this for so long that I really needed someone, an opinion that just wasn't me or Erica.
Speaker: And your insights are fascinating.
Speaker: It's been a blast.
Speaker: I love to talk about stuff like this.
Speaker: And I'm glad you're an interrupter, too, because right as we were beginning, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't stop interrupting.
Speaker: But as Frida has told me before, I only interrupt when I'm having a good time.
Speaker: So I'm polite when I'm having a bad time.
Speaker: So that means I had a great time.
Speaker: Um, where can people find you, uh, on the internet and hear more of your perspectives, Casey?
Speaker: So I'm on Tik TOK at domestic blisters.
Speaker: I post there the most regularly.
Speaker: Um, I've got a website called struggle care.com where you can get all sorts of resources on mental health and things like cleaning your house when you are neurodivergent.
Speaker: Um, and I have a book that's called how to keep house while drowning and a podcast called struggle care.
Speaker: Why is it blisters?
Speaker: It's a pun on domestic bliss.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: I thought that.
Speaker: And I mean, I was wondering.
Speaker: And yeah, now it makes sense.
Speaker: Well, no, I never thought I was always like, what does that mean?
Speaker: Now I'm embarrassed.
Speaker: Like my pun skills are bad.
Speaker: Domestic bliss, but it's kind of chafey.
Speaker: Yeah, I was just like, well, because I know you talk about house cares, like maybe you get blisters while you're, oh, there's that autistic literal thinking.
Speaker: I always think like, nah, I'm not like that.
Speaker: I don't take things literally.
Speaker: Here I am.
Speaker: And Josh, where do we find you on the internet?
Speaker: I am Jay Shariar on Twitter, and I do have a TikTok, but I don't really post on it much.
Speaker: I was just going to ask you, what are the chances we can get you on TikTok?
Speaker: I am on TikTok.
Speaker: Okay, what are the chances we can get you to actually post?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Come on.
Speaker: I might.
Speaker: I might.
Speaker: I might post.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: If anybody wants to write in messages, Bully and Josh into posting on TikTok, I will send them their way.
Speaker: And you can find me at Erica Heidewald.
Speaker: TikTok, Twitter, pretty much everything.
Speaker: And we have gotten some messages from...
Speaker: the listeners, which I've asked for and been thrilled to receive.
Speaker: So we're going to record.
Speaker: We're not done talking about what is going on season four because we can't let it go yet.
Speaker: So we're going to record another episode tomorrow where we sort of talk about like the news that's come out since the season has ended and read the
Speaker: listener perspectives so feel free to send me a message if you would like your message read on the podcast and or you can use the hashtag aliens watching reality tv uh so yeah we will be back soon thank you so much for listening give us a five star rating if you haven't yet because it makes me happy and also maybe leave a comment that also makes me happy
Speaker: Yeah, I guess Josh's happiness matters too.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, come on.
Speaker: Think about me.
Speaker: I get it.
Speaker: We did get one review that said that we were a good example of a healthy neurodivergent friendship, even...
Speaker: Even if we talk to each other in like a quote unquote direct way, which I just thought was funny because sometimes I do listen to our podcast.
Speaker: I'm like, we are so, we would come off so rude if you, if you don't know how to interpret us.
Speaker: We're constantly just interrupting each other and being, yeah.
Speaker: Thank God that we're both autistic.
Speaker: I'm so grateful that you came on our pod.
Speaker: I mean, I say pod.
Speaker: Well, it is a pod, but it's a podcast, not a pod in Love the Blind.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: I'm just so grateful y'all wanted me.
Speaker: It was a lot of fun.
Speaker: Oh, this was super fun.
Speaker: And I feel like as soon as it's over, I'm going to think of like 10 more questions I wish I'd asked you and just be full of regrets.
Speaker: But that's what TikTok is for, I guess.
Speaker: Yay.
Speaker: So, all right.
Speaker: Thank you everyone for listening and till death do us part.
Speaker: Yay.
Speaker: Till death do us part.
Speaker: Yay.
