Transcript
Speaker: um Okay. So real quick, and then we can do our banter. Our cold open. this is This is the cold open right here. Cold open, yeah. Which let me let me tell you, it's super interesting to see you nervous about this book.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. No, letting you do the good stuff. Yeah. That's behind the curtain. Oh yeah. Cause you usually, usually play everything pretty cool. Yeah. then But then you throw up Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I just like, I go,
Speaker: It's usually the pattern. It's like, ah yeah of laughing and that I'm then crying. and they might just you might you might benefit in from a bucket. Do you have a vomit bucket? My kids have a vomit bucket. It's it's like a five-gallon bucket and it has usually a Walmart, plastic Walmart bag inside of it.
Speaker: So when they're sick, they put it by their bed. and when they have to get sick, they get sick. And then I have to take it out. It's disgusting. but you could have a bucket next to at all times. No, no. I moved away from the bucket and went straight to the double bag.
Speaker: the double The double trash bag. i've a whole trash bag? What? Like a whole kitchen trash bag? Yeah. But it's got to be double lined. They just put their mouth up to it? Oh, yeah. It's the best. Like a giant airplane barf bag? Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm telling you, think about it. Well, one, one it condenses a lot better, right? that It's...
Speaker: there and this is what i found is the splash factor so when when somebody's not feeling well and you got a bucket and you're going into it sometimes it just kind of doesn't do what it needs to do and so it's nice to have a nice wide entry gate and then here's the best quick and easy cleanup for the old man you know because i don't get to dump things out i don't have to wash it out i don't have to do anything like that you know what i mean so I can't even look at it.
Speaker: This is such a great way to start a podcast. talking about throwing up and where it goes and how it splashes in the bucket and how many bags you need. Well, that's the kind of that's the kind of high programming that we offer here. you know just help That kind of wisdom and insight is really what drives the content of this podcast is going, what kind receptacle should you use when your kids are sick and they need to throw up into something? We got you.
Speaker: Was that deep? Was that too deep for you?
Speaker: Yeah, man. I tell you what, it's like whether or not the guest comes or not, i just really enjoy it. I just enjoy just chit-chatting with you as matter of fact. And I hope that he does. i hope that he does. hear This guy's name is Alan Levi.
Speaker: This is the guy that wrote the novel Theo of Golden, which got a lot of attention recently. Theo of Golden? Theo of Golden. And I'm only like 10 pages into it.
Speaker: but i What's the main idea? Did you chat GPT it? Yeah. Well, i heard I heard a summary of it, but I don't know that I want to give a summary of don't want to spoil it for anybody. it's no no we're not No, we're not going to. Okay. it's basically So far, it's basically a guy who moves to a town called Golden.
Speaker: And he in a so shop somewhere, there are maybe like... almost a hundred portraits painted of different people from the town. Okay. And he wants to, I think, give each of the people their own portrait.
Speaker: So that's as far as I, that's as far as I have. So. All right. Well, but we can, but we can talk about it. Yeah. I mean, I don't know much about this guy, which I think is kind of part of the bit, right? Of course.
Speaker: Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. So excited. I actually got a little nervous. I have to admit. You it about what? This is when you freaked out earlier? even No, I'm just talking about it. I know that we've met all kinds of people, and it's really but every single time I still just get a little nervous. And I think that i think people feel that way, don't they? It's like when meet somebody new, there's always this sense of like, hey, is my breath? It's small, okay, but I mean- Totally new. You have no preparation. you have you You're going to talk to somebody who spent thousands of hours writing a book and you haven't even read the book.
Speaker: That's a, that's a thing. Alan here. There he is. you did it? This is so, this is so exciting, Alan. Thanks. Thanks so much for being, uh, being with us today.
Speaker: Hey, I was just saying, I was just saying, I'm so honored to be here. And there's nowhere else I'd rather be. Yeah. So it's, ah it's great to just to be able to kind of to understand and to get to know you a little bit. I, I am curious, can you, can you just kind of go, what, what does it feel like? What does it feel like to be you right now? Like, what is it?
Speaker: How would you describe what, what life feels like for you? Yeah. I mean, the the honest answer to that aside from blessed and grateful, and such overwhelmed right now. I've just got a lot on my plate.
Speaker: ah Most of it is good. I've got family stuff like everybody does. Family stuff for me means a 97 and a half year old father that lives with me. i I'm a single guy. So I'm kind of the the one that has the privilege and the responsibility of keeping my eye on him.
Speaker: ah We've got we're down to 700 acres that I have to kind of keep my eye on. a couple of hundred acres right around me require some time and energy. So that's another thing.
Speaker: I'm involved in things in the community that I really love. And I've got these stories rattling around in my head now. I mean, I've got residents in my brain that I just cannot get out of there.
Speaker: And so it means twenty four seven I've got something in my mind that I wish I could sit down and be writing about. So the bandwidth is totally consumed right now, but but I'm grateful for it.
Speaker: That's really great. Joe, I want to tell you one of the reasons why I thought that Alan would great to have a conversation with is ah when I ah saw him at the conference. And of course, Alan, you know, the only rule of the podcast is that ah whoever's on it has to be a stranger to us. And I think that that still applies. I mean, you and i had a you know a couple of minute conversation, yeah but it was just so clear, Joe. I mean, in ah in just a few minutes of just talking to you,
Speaker: you are so personable. ah You have a rare level of personability and that just makes for, you know, a great opportunity to talk to somebody. And so, uh, so we've been looking forward to to talking to you. I have started, Joe's going to start soon.
Speaker: Theo of golden. Okay. Nice. Thank you. the Book that you wrote. And, uh, and so far, you know, enjoying, enjoying that, but I'm not very far, far into it, but, uh, I think it would be great for Joe to hear. I did hear a little bit from that session at the conference, yeah just a little bit of your backstory yeah and the many different things, which is fascinating, the many different things that you've sort of done in your life. So maybe you could give a little backstory. Sure.
Speaker: So that Joe could catch up on that. Yeah, I'll be happy to. This will be the, uh, the 30,000 foot flyover, uh, born in South Alabama to a, um,
Speaker: Solidly middle class, but very hardworking mom and dad family, older sister, two younger sisters, a younger brother. We moved from South Alabama to Columbus, Georgia in the late 1950s.
Speaker: And that's where I grew up. I still consider in some ways Columbus my home. was a pretty good student. And as far as being personable, first of all, thank you for that. That's very kind of you.
Speaker: I think that's just the result of being around personable people and particularly good storytellers and as Wendell Berry might call them, good talkers. So I kind of grew up in that milieu.
Speaker: i was a pretty good student. um And I think my mom and dad realized early on that if I wanted to, I could probably pursue a profession. So I went to Mercer University for a year ah right out of high school, ah transferred to the University of Georgia, got a degree in English. From there, went to law school, graduated in 1980 from law school, went to Columbus and practiced for 10 years, very full-time.
Speaker: Took a couple of years off in the early 90s to go to Edinburgh, Scotland. I got a master's in Scottish fiction while I was there. Went back home to part-time law practice, meaning four or five hours a day.
Speaker: And at the same time, i was i was really becoming enamored of the possibility that I could could make a living as a musician. I was writing a lot of songs and playing a bit. So in the mid-90s, right before the Olympics came to Georgia,
Speaker: I left law practice to pursue music. My career plan was that I would do that for two years, go broke and return back to law practice. i really I thought it was way outside my yeah my league to be doing it, but it worked out really well. My career plan failed and and I did that for about 20 years. My brother got sick in 2011. He was my my closest friend, my mentor, my my hero, 13 months younger than me.
Speaker: But I shut down everything to care for my brother. He lived a year and passed away. After that, I didn't want to travel anymore. i was just tired of that. And I had enjoyed being home a lot.
Speaker: So I did a little bit of music after that, but I was approached about running for a judgeship. And I ran and was elected to be the probate judge of the county where I live. It's about 45,000 people, small county, or I should say large county, small population.
Speaker: And I did that and then left that office and um I didn't know what to do next. So I was in a coffee shop one day and I had an idea for a book and I sat down and started writing a book. And Theo of Golden is the end result of that. Let me let me just add this one footnote to and and this is not a footnote. This is kind of like a banner headline.
Speaker: ah When I was a senior at the University of Georgia, I had grown up in the church, but I was not a follower of Christ. ah i I think my mom and dad kind of raised us to do good, love mercy and you know that that thing, walk humbly with your God.
Speaker: But none of us were followers of Christ. And in 1978, when i was
Speaker: I began my walk with Christ, surrendered my life to Him. i was the first in my family to do so. My younger brother was next, my three sisters after that, and then lastly, my mother and father. And that has continued since then to define my life in in a very ah very bumpy ah you know pilgrimage with ah with Christ. But yeah, that's kind of the flyover. That's it. Okay. Now, do you, do you, i I mean, that's, and now, and now you're caring for your dad on 700 acres and, and talking to us, you know, i yeah as you look at the arc of things, that's a, you know, it's a, it's a, yeah, just remarkable to be with you. Now, let me, let me ask you this. You know, you had mentioned, you had mentioned being around personable people. Yeah.
Speaker: What is it as you think, because I can get a sense that you know that you have a mind you have a mind that both can think from a law perspective, very ah very detailed and ah the law is very binary, yeah whereas whereas art and creativity and design has has more margin and places to to kind of go How would you what a personable person ah what what a personable person is And how does that how has that impacted you on how you care for other people?
Speaker: Yeah, thank you. You know, ah rather than de define it, I think maybe what I would do is just give what seemed to me defining characteristics of a person who is personable. yeah there may There may be another word than personable for that. I would like to think that loving is a better word. And that is that is kind of the the rock bottom of what any of us, I think, aspire to in life.
Speaker: And it in some people, it turns out to be personability and some it turns to be contemplative sort of approach to life. But I think as far as characteristics of personable, as I would define the term, ah interest in others, a deep curiosity ah in the world around us and particularly in the stories of other people, I think a cultivated sense of wonder.
Speaker: And I say cultivated because, as you all know, ah life just sucks that out of us if we're not careful, and we have to be very deliberate about maintaining it. um For me, for me a a love for story and for words, I think, is a big part of it.
Speaker: um But I think really it's just trying to be who Jesus was, ah a passage that I love more than any in the Scripture, and and to me it's kind of the one that I would hang over my bed, says that that we are to be imitators of God as dearly loved children and live a life of love just as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Speaker: I think to imitate Christ is to be a personable, to be a person, you know, person or caring for person type of of man or woman. And so I think that that that makes me naturally outgoing when I'm with people. I am by nature an introvert, ah very much so. as As I define the term, my energy comes from being alone and I spend lots of time alone.
Speaker: but But I love being with people, especially one on one when I can have a conversation, ask questions, respond to questions. And as as for the, you know, bringing the the law world into the creative world, yeah I kind of wrestled to the mat years ago that really there is a symmetry there that that dispels the notion that my change is career-wise very drastic. As a lawyer. I'm so interested. Okay. So you're so you're telling me that you're telling me that both of those, both of those in your heart and mind, that there's ah that there's a parallel to it, that they connect, right? yeah Tell me more about that. Yeah, no doubt.
Speaker: so So as a lawyer, um my job was to tell stories. I was largely a litigator. And so I got to tell stories. ah My tool was words.
Speaker: And my goal was to persuade. Okay, when i when I switched over into music, I still was telling stories. I still was using words, and my hope was still to persuade people. Obviously, the goal of persuasion as a musician and now as an author it's is very different than what it was as a litigator.
Speaker: But the tools and and the purpose of my work tends to be the same. And now as an author, I'm still telling stories, using words, and trying to persuade people. In law, you're right, it is a very binary sort of of realm, but there's a lot of nuance in it.
Speaker: that's why That's why two people in a litigation situation looking at the same set of facts can come up with very divergent views of what happened and who was responsible and that sort of thing.
Speaker: so So I think that really the parallel between... The different paths that I had been on is is is stronger than most people would assume. I'm still doing now what I was doing back in the early 80s as a storytelling lawyer.
Speaker: That is so captivating. That is so captivating to me. You're right. that the That when you take when you take two people that are looking at the same the same artifacts, right but are coming to two different paths.
Speaker: conclusions on that and then to adjudicate to be able to say look this is this is how the law then would interpret both your vantage points and the artifacts to be able to then display wisdom which is that that idea of that it it works in the white space between between things that are written and things that are seen and being able to use wisdom in that way that the creativity of that the the knowledge of that and then the pursuit of that for the care for other people that there isn't there is a real continuity to those things. there There is. You know, and I would- I mean, am I am i tracking with you? Oh yeah, totally. No no doubt about it. I would hearken to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as the as the best example of four people looking at the exact same set of facts and and not coming up with different conclusions.
Speaker: but But approaching it with a different perspective because of who they they were and who we all are uniquely. And so litigation is that. And then as a songwriter, you know, I get to be kind of the only voice in the room. And and hopefully the things that I wrote as a musician ah reflected of a view of life and a view of the world and a view of of human community and a view of Jesus that resonates with with what the Scripture teaches.
Speaker: yeah That's very true. Alan, I would love to go back to something you said a minute ago and hear you talk a little bit more about it. A moment ago, you said that you are more of an introvert. yeah and ah What I'm going to say next is not empty flattery. It is actually ah something that I have observed a number of things. and you know One of the things that Joe and i ah have in common is we we do like very much to watch people and to see the way that they interact with others. That's why you stood out to me in our brief interaction. And as I was in that room at the conference, ah you know i I could see you interacting with other people. yeah And for someone who says he is introverted, you have a very extroverted way of engaging people. For instance, one you have a way of looking at someone with full attention. Yeah.
Speaker: And there is all of your personality. You have a kind of um Southern charm, the Georgia charm. I have some family from Georgia. They're like that. It is always captivating. The Southern charm. Out in California, we just don't know. It sounds too twangy. But I tell you what, that Southern dude, you could just be ordering a pancake and eggs. Absolutely. And it just sounds like i just like a warm blanket. Yeah.
Speaker: It's real. It's a real thing. It is a real thing. It really is. but' There's such a kindness in the way that you looked at people when you were talking. and these are strangers to you. yeah And so I'm just curious, ah you know what influences in your life ah do you think contributed to that? There were people that modeled for you love. And who were the most loving people that modeled that in your life that made you this way Yeah, I probably don't know many of them, honestly. I think it's just almost by osmosis that we pick that up.
Speaker: my My brother, Gary, was very much that way. He he loved people. He was probably more of an extrovert, ah very capable of being alone and and spending a lot of time you know thinking and reading and praying and whatnot.
Speaker: But his life was largely influential, more as an adult than as a child. um You know, I don't really know growing up who those people were ah because I don't feel like there was a point in life where I suddenly became what I am now. i think I've always been this way. And again, i take no credit for that. There's no self-congratulation in that. I just, this is the way that God wired me. I do think as an adult though,
Speaker: oh hearing the preaching of the gospel and trying to to to look into the life of Jesus, understanding what it was like. There's a phrase that I love by Eugene Peterson, and he's a writer who I really, really enjoy. um he he There's a phrase where he he talks about living with adorational attentiveness, adorational attentiveness. And I think we all want to be attentive to life around us if we if we really want to, you know,
Speaker: if we really want to enter into life in some full sort of way. But the the modifier there, adorational, I think adds a whole new dimension, especially to how we interact with people and and to to interact one-on-one, looking at a person adorationally, not necessarily because they're so adorable,
Speaker: But because they have the you know the image of God in them, ah it's just something that I think all of us are are called upon to do. You've got your hand up like you can't hear me or something. all them No, I can hear you. Nope.
Speaker: Nope. You're doing great. You're doing great. all sounds It all sounds good. No, i just I was just thinking as you said that about... about Eugene Peterson's words, that's actually it. That's the thing I'm observing in you when you are talking to other people. And it was amazing to see the way that people felt with you, free to just open up to you. And it is just it's just a beautiful thing. you know And so it was ah it was just a very cool thing cool thing to watch. yeah with now Okay, so I'm so interested in these these words that you're using to cultivate wonder yeah and the idea of this this adorational attentiveness that there's an intentionality. when you how is it
Speaker: how is it that you, that you cultivate wonder, right? Because you, you had mentioned that I think the world and there are a lot of things in it that just, that just fight against that, right? Right. The world, the flesh and the devil kind of work against those things. Right. Right. How is it, how is it as you've lived and you've experienced and the things that, that you have found to be true,
Speaker: How is it that you that you cultivate that wonder? Is it a habitual kind of a habit thing or is it mostly on the fly and then it comes and goes? Maybe help us to see the world the way that you do cultivating wonder.
Speaker: yeah What does that look like? Yeah. Thank you, Joe. it You know, it's a little bit of both. It's a little bit of intentionality. And some of it, I think, is just the way that that I've grown up. I've been out of doors a lot over the course of my life. My dad's a forester.
Speaker: And so I've spent a lot of time with him in his work, even as a little boy. We hunted, we fished, we were outdoors a lot. And I think that I've acquired a love for the creation that i might not have other had that I might not have had otherwise. So that's part of it, just being outside. And even now, I spend a lot of time outside and I try to do that with no noise in my ears.
Speaker: I try not to keep a phone with me when I'm outdoors working. And that's usually hours every day. And I always keep a pad and a pen with me. So it could be that I'm working on a song in the morning and I'm chopping firewood in the afternoon, but kind of writing during my work breaks or when something comes to me.
Speaker: so so So part of it is just the rhythm of life for me. it's It's not an intentional thing, but there are things when I feel my soul kind of sagging. Okay. Yeah. yeah Let's talk about that. Yeah, i sit I sit still a lot outside, often with a book in hand.
Speaker: um Sometimes I sketch, but anything to make me look closely at things around me. um There's a lot of stillness. yeah'all I'm sure you all are for familiar with John Mark Comer and and the way that he encourages us to the disciplines of Jesus, silence, solitude, stillness, simplicity, and and Sabbath.
Speaker: And in some way, all of those are a part of my life. And when I read his book about the ruthless elimination of hurry, it resonated with me because I realized those are parts of my my my rhythm these days.
Speaker: And I think that contributes to a sense of wonder. But I think too ah to pray for it God, give me give it to me You know, i think we can try to conjure it up, but I really do believe that it's just a ah gift that God gives us. We have to be available.
Speaker: We have to be cooperative. We have to be willing to be still, ah you know, and for delivery. and And God very graciously has given it to me. As far as a sense of wonder about people, and this goes back rush to the to the introvert thing, I make myself be with people and I love it. Okay, so on a typical Monday, Wednesday, Friday in our community, I go to our local high school.
Speaker: from 7 to 8 o'clock. I've been doing this for 25 years now. And I open the back door and I hold it for kids as they're getting off the bus and coming into school. We have one high school in our community, 1,700 kids.
Speaker: And you know i know a few hundred of them by name. And just to engage with with young people for 30 seconds, 10 seconds, just as just a good good morning each day,
Speaker: ah I don't know how that how that promotes a sense of wonder in the people around me, but it just does. I just have a real affection and a sense of, of of gosh, I don't even know the word blessing when I'm with them.
Speaker: I read to school kids. I love their sense of wonder. um And I think that maybe some of that is contagious. I think as older people, all of us might be well served to spend time with little people.
Speaker: I know that you you guys might have families with children and it's a little easier, but even beyond just your your inner circle. just to be around little people who have a lot of energy and who still have a sense of wonder and who are fearless when it comes to conversation, you know, that sort of thing.
Speaker: But um so it's it's a cultivated thing. It's a gift thing. And then it's just, I think it's just the way that God wired me and raised me up in the circumstances I grew up in.
Speaker: And I'm thankful. I'm extremely, extremely thankful. I'll add this to that. As a songwriter, I knew um my, you know, I couldn't play a guitar well. I couldn't sing terribly well.
Speaker: In fact, I could not sing well at all. And as a writer, you know maybe i could I was okay, but I did have at least moderate levels of all of those skill sets.
Speaker: ah But every day when I was a songwriter, and this was for, like, say for 20 years, I woke up asking myself, where is the song today? and and And it was not unusual in a typical year for me to write 200 or 300 songs. Most of them had a shelf life. Hold second. Hold on a second. Hold a second. Did you say 200 or 300 songs? Yes. In a year?
Speaker: yeah Yeah, I did that. Holy moly. Wow. Yeah. That's a lot of songs. Joe, don't be impressed. The the number does not. it is and like It is impressive. You can't say something like that and then say, don't be impressed. I mean, I do, I do sing, I do sing some songs when I like, when I eat a good meal, you know, I'll sing a song to the meal, you know, I just like, I think that's the way that I celebrate meals and sing, you know but man, writing songs, that's amazing. Yeah. But so, so the, the number says nothing about the quality of them, but yeah,
Speaker: and So i will I will give you an example. Like if I'm flying out to Kansas City to play a gig tonight, my piano player and I would travel together and I would write a song on the plane about that particular day or some particular thought. But in order to do that, I had to find something to kind of hang my hat on.
Speaker: And so I think that every day that pursuit of the song became an exercise in wonder. yeah Because i i'll sure I wanted to find something in the airport, on the ride, in a thought, in a conversation that I could then attach music and lyric to. And it it typically ended up being something metaphorical.
Speaker: But I think that that was a great discipline. If I were an English professor, I think I would require that of my students if it was a creative writing course. every day come in with either a song idea, a poem, a yeah a paragraph, but you've got to come up with something that's imaginative.
Speaker: ah Maybe that is anthropomorphic where you give a voice to a bird or a voice to a shoe or a voice to a fork. And and yeah I tell you, it just it just it just breaks the world open with possibility for where God speaks to us. And I am just convinced that, as as Doug McKelvey says in his book, every moment is holy.
Speaker: And and everything everything is a liturgy of one kind of or another. And i think that that kind of keeps the wonder muscle ah you know well exercised. Yeah. what And what you're describing is this this this very this attentiveness. There's an attentiveness, an observation, an intentionality to make observations of the world that you're in and to be able to then relate that to who you are and who your God is. And making those connections. Where am I in this space? What am I seeing? What am I observing?
Speaker: How does that reveal and give me a sense of who my God is and where I'm placed in this? And then how do I then communicate that or make observations or tell that story or celebrate it or lament it Am I tracking with you?
Speaker: Perfect. the ors i did I don't write songs, but i but i i those are those are moments that are very life-giving to to me as well, where you're able to see that. As a matter of fact, my kids make fun of me about it all the time. You know, go, hey, did you see that? Or, hey, let's look at this. are like yeah the other day I was my kids, and my my my son literally turns to me and goes, dad,
Speaker: you know, you don't have to say something about everything you see. Can you know just be quiet for a minute? And i go, okay, fine. I'll just keep those as inside thoughts. But but it is it is that that wonder. And it's interesting that you share it through music. Yeah.
Speaker: And I do find that my joy is is complete when I make an observation or I'm connected with something and then I'm able to then share that with another person. Right. And if that other person...
Speaker: sees or engages with it, that I find that that's a connectedness for relatability and friendship and belonging, especially for those who are Christ followers where they're going, wow, we we see and experience the same things because we worship and and know the same God.
Speaker: Yeah. Hey, that's great. And Joe, let me just say this. keep keep Keep saying all of that ridiculous stuff around your kids. It gets in. Okay. I'm going to have to listen to this because I'm going to tell you, listen, mr Allen said that yeah we got to keep talking about it. Yeah, it it it gets it gets in somehow. And you know I would say, too, that maybe a fringe benefit of of having that sort of vision about life is that it protects us from boredom.
Speaker: and And I do get asked from time to time, given that I don't have a family and I live in a small town in the middle of Georgia, don't you get bored living out there? There's no theater, there's no stores, there's no grocery store.
Speaker: i mean, you live in ah every kind of desert there is. And I say, no, i don't i my life is filled with inexhaustible wonder. And I think that going through life with our eyes open to kind of make the connections between heaven and earth It just makes it this gloriously interesting place.
Speaker: And so if nobody ever gets to hear the things that you or Rush and I see, or the connections that we make, we get to see it. And hopefully it itt you know it enriches our lives and draws us closer to ah to to God.
Speaker: Making those connections between heaven and earth yeah for our joy, for God's glory. And if we get to, we can share it with others too.
Speaker: Touche. And you know, guys, it was making me think as we were talking about this, the way that that sense of wonder and making those observations makes our life make sense. Alan, you you missed an important moment earlier before you came on. You missed getting to see Joe throw up in his mouth a little bit when he realized that we are- What we we are we doing? No, no, no. This is important. wait What are we talking about? We we are way behind, Alan, on a book project.
Speaker: ah And when he realized that this was another one of the things in his you know swelling life of good things, yeah he he expressed how hard it is to to get all of that to come together. yeah you know Because it seems like it's you know there's all these moving pieces. i he saw He saw me in a moment. i was a little overwhelmed. It was a great moment. and rush And Rush was like, man, I don't normally see you overwhelmed.
Speaker: yeah But but i want to I want to shift from that back to your story, Alan, and ask you another aspect of it that I'm interested to know about. And it is that when I hear your story, I'm struck by major, what Joe and I call...
Speaker: called hard pivots. There are major moments where you've chosen to make an enormous change. And while a sense of wonder is central to that, there's also a sense of bravery.
Speaker: And i think it's very important. I try to you know encourage my kids and to to do hard things and to be willing to take chances and to step out there. And you've done that a number of times. And so I would love to hear you talk about what that experience has been like for you To make such big jumps that take bravery, I mean, I'm imagining you you you decide to change your sort of profession. Now I'm going to be a songwriter. And there's a lot of risk involved in that. So I wonder how that had played out for you.
Speaker: Yeah, a couple of things I would say. First of all, they were big jumps, but they were not sudden jumps. Okay, so they were the kinds of things that incubated for long time before I ever finally stepped off the cliff.
Speaker: And then with regards to the risk element of it, the risk was only to me. If I had had a wife and children, I'm sure that I would have viewed things very differently. But at each juncture, at each of those pivot points, ah they weren't decisions that I made all by myself. I've been really blessed to have wise people in my life, people who I trust much more than I trust myself.
Speaker: And whenever it came you know to the point that I'm thinking, okay, maybe this is what I should be doing, I would always go to those people and say, hey, Let me run this by you. How does it sound to you? And you know typically, they were very affirming. But I'll tell you a recent example of where it's become a bit of a rub. It's it's kind of a hard thing, but I'm thankful for it.
Speaker: So I'm working on a sequel now to the book that that I wrote a couple of years ago, Theo of Golden. And I'm 420 pages into it. And parts of it feel really good. Parts of it, I've got some questions about.
Speaker: But I've got a little inner circle of guys we meet every year for a long weekend. And they were the ones that that encouraged me ah to put Theo of Golden out. But I sent them the manuscript of the new book, and the response has been very muted.
Speaker: And I think that we have agreed this is not this is not something you ought to publish until until you've done a lot of work. And that lot of work thing, Joe, to your overcrowded life, that's when I throw up my food in my mouth. Look, redoing two or 250 pages a book. I mean, how long would it take to throw that up in my I trust these guys. And my dad, who is still very, very clear thinking, he's ah he's a wise man.
Speaker: I go to him. I've got some other family members whose judgment I trust a lot. And I know they love me enough to be honest with me. So Rush, to your question, you know, these these pivots, I usually did it with the wind at my back. And I had some people who were kind of holding me up. and and And then there was a lot of prayer before I ever made them such that when I did make them, there was never any second guessing about them. and i never I never looked back and said, God, that was a huge mistake.
Speaker: everything on so Everything I've done so far, I feel like God has said, this is good. So so maybe maybe one more question along those lines. what What was the most exhilarating shift for you? Because they are incredible. Some are in service through ah through your work in law and some songwriting and now novel writing. Which was the most exhilarating to you?
Speaker: i guess I guess the one that was most immediately exhilarating, and this is a mixed bag, was when I left law practice to do music. Law practice was hard. It is hard work. It's extremely demanding. It's stressful.
Speaker: I was with a ah firm. I had... depending on the time, 10 to 15 partners. We were all accountable to one another. And it was really hard for a lot of reasons. I enjoyed the work probably as much or more than the average lawyer does, but it was hard. And so when I stepped out of that into music, I go into my studio, which is newly built,
Speaker: And I'm sitting there and I was exhilarated to think, gosh, I don't have to fight with people anymore unless I choose to. and And really, I felt a lot of guilt, if anything, along with the exhilaration.
Speaker: I mean, who am I to leave that that world where ministry is a pretty easy easy path? It's easy to be light in that world. And then to go from that into something that was was all about making people happy and enjoying my work. I had to pray through that. Lord, is this guilt from you or is this guilt from me? But when I finally started sharing songs and seeing the power that they have to work with people, and this was usually and in front of small audiences in lots of different settings, that was really, really exhilarating.
Speaker: and and it And it was pretty immediate. I do think this, though, writing, I've just done the one novel, so I don't really have much credibility here. but But I will say this, the thought of people picking up a book and spending 10 or 15 hours of their life with it,
Speaker: That has has been very humbling, but the feedback has been exhilarating. And it's been an affirmation that I never expected because I never expected to publish the book. so But I will say this, that that all of the changes have have by and large been really, really positive and enjoyable.
Speaker: speaking of Speaking of different seasons of life and different moments, i um i've I'd love to hear a little bit more. You've you've mentioned mentioned two ways in which that you've cared for your family, the way in which you cared for your brother and was a caregiver and then also ah caring for your father now. Uh-huh.
Speaker: i wrote it it It seems as though that I'm i'm in a certain season of life now to where the the families that the family said I'm around, that they're that they're in a stage where they're caring for they're caring for their aging parents, they're caring for their aging family members. yeah And one story is alike.
Speaker: and and not one not one um story is alike that they're all different. They all have different needs or opportunities or responsibilities. There are different burdens in there.
Speaker: um But there are there are certain things that I just, i'm I'm listening for of how to be of encouragement to them, how to listen to them, how to be a good friend. I'm not in a place yet. Like I'm in the early stages of where Heidi and I, my wife, we we were going, okay, well, here's where our folks are.
Speaker: we How do we start to prepare now yeah to begin to think about and to make provision for how to be ah honorable to our parents and our family? what are some What are some things that have been of personal help to you practically?
Speaker: um And personally, as you think about the good days and bad days and everything in between of caring for your family members. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, just thank you. And let me commend you and your wife for giving some thought in advance to when that season will arrive. It will, you know, most likely for all of us arrive.
Speaker: And my my peer group, I mean, this is kind of the conversation that we all have these days. yeah I'm not alone. and and let us Let us listen in on that conversation. you know what? No, you probably don't want to hear it. You probably don't want to hear that. cut There's a lot of frustration that comes with it.
Speaker: ah for For me, so just recently, ah my dad surrendered his his keys, his his truck keys, which means that I'm now the driver. yeah And ah I don't get to travel anymore. you know i'm I'm thankful that writing doesn't require me to travel. I can do my work here but comfortably. And there are still things in the community to do to keep life purposeful. But ah But, you know, it's confining. And I think that to prepare in advance is is really a wise move to make. So I'm looking at my dad at 97 and I'm thinking, what can I do now to prepare myself for 97?
Speaker: And I think maybe, you know, when we're 40s and 50s, we might think, OK, what can I do to prepare myself for when mom and dad need more of my attention? um Joe, I don't have a clear answer for that. Pray. Pray.
Speaker: And just ask ask God for the patience that it takes, because at least that seems to be the theme. It takes a lot of patience. And my first prayer almost every day, honestly, almost every day is, God, please let me be a blessing to my dad.
Speaker: I think that like caring for my brother, which was a team effort. It was me, my parents, my sisters were around a good bit then. um I think that prepared me somewhat to just realize, okay, this really is a ah season of sacrifice.
Speaker: i doesn't you know You still got a lot of freedom, a lot of autonomy, and and I can still do things. But at the end of the day, I just have to be willing to say, okay, today, dad needs me to do this. And that's more important than writing another page in the book sort of thing.
Speaker: But um I wish I could i wish i could weigh on weigh in on that with any authority, but I'm still learning it as I go, believe me. it's It's interesting. it It seems to me that um that every day every day and every season when you're caring for your aging parents is um yeah is is a new application. It doesn't seem like that there's a there's a particular um framework or guidelines or checklist. And it's interesting. Tell me tell me if this resonates.
Speaker: the same the same muscle that connects heaven and earth in a sense of wonder, that that skill of saying, okay, this is who I know my God to be. This is the reality of which I'm seeing. yeah And to be able to make that connection sacrificially and lovingly, um that that that essential skill set is what I'm hearing from my friends and I'm hearing from you yeah is what helps to go, okay.
Speaker: That's right. here's I'm going to engage in this. and i'm going to engage that with a sense of adoration even even in the midst of my suffering or challenges or sense of loss and also in the midst of that that there's an honoring and a joy that comes on the back side of that right um am i am i in the ballpark does any of that language resonate with you yeah how would you how would you add to that yeah well said i would go back to uh the question on personability
Speaker: ah live a life of love just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. You know, sometimes what we what we offer up as a sacrifice is our attention to the flower that is at our feet.
Speaker: And it's easy and it's you know it's it's effortless maybe. It's beautiful. But you know saying, okay, I can't write this morning. I got to take my dad grocery shopping or something of that sort.
Speaker: That is to imitate Christ and and the fact that he gave himself for us. And we all know that none of these circumstances come to us accidentally. mean god I mean, I think God orchestrates them for us.
Speaker: And watching a sunset, he can teach us one thing. And You know, dealing with a parent that's a little bit difficult at times. And let me be very quick to say that if there is a party that is suffering through my learning process as a caregiver with an elderly parent, it is my dad. he I'm sure he deals with a lot more frustration coming from my direction than I do coming from giving me. That's just full disclosure. i'm sure thats I hear that. That's humble. but um the So give me they give me that a little bit of a window here with our last few moments. um i i I also have a friends that i that I have a long weekend with once a year. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And we're intentional about that. What are some of the dynamics that, uh, that you look forward to with them and are there particular things that you guys do? I'm always looking for, uh, new ideas or different ways in which to spend ah that intentional time. What are some things that are memories of that weekend for you?
Speaker: Yeah. let me Let me say, first of all, it is one of the it is one of the highlights of my life. These are five guys. We know each other well. We trust one another. And again, it's just a long weekend. And everybody is pretty, they're pretty stressed out, pretty running fast. Their lives are really crowded.
Speaker: Less so now as as they get closer to retirement and things are slowing down a bit for most of them. One of them, y'all might know, a fellow named Bebo Norman. He was a musician back in the day. do know Bebo Norman. Well, I don't know him. Bebo Norman? Are you kidding? Dude, I brought Bebo Norman out for a concert.
Speaker: I heard his album tracked him down and brought him out for a small concert at at a ministry that I was associated with. I haven't heard that name in quite a while. I haven't either, but I listened to him on Spotify quite a bit, even recently. Yeah. So let me connect the dots there. Bebo grew up in Columbus, Georgia.
Speaker: His mom and dad had been friends of mine forever. No kidding. And when Bebo was a young teenager, he would come up here to my farm and we would play the guitar together. So great. so But he's one of them.
Speaker: Yeah, got it. but But to answer your question, Joe, we really have no agenda. The only thing that's an expectation is that we're going to eat a lot. And everyone has to report honestly about the past year.
Speaker: And so we have been through some really hard things, some really pleasant things. um We know each other well. And so it's just it's just a time when things are working right that that everybody lets their guard down and says, this is where I'm struggling. This is where things are going good. Here's married life. Here's parenting. Here's work life. this is And we're at the season where we're caring for parents now.
Speaker: That's a big part of our conversation. um but But that's really the only expectation. we're going to walk some, we're going to eat a lot, we're going to sit around and we're going to talk for hours and hours and hours. And ah most every year, there is a very generous share of laughter involved. We we love each other and we can speak unguardedly, you know, say things we probably wouldn't say to anybody else or in any other setting. but Yeah, it it was pretty great. Actually, it got it it got inaugurated by...
Speaker: by a by a friend. Yeah. And again, we don't live in the same spot, but we kind of are in the same circles. And he came up to me one time. He said, hey, I really want to invest in our friendship.
Speaker: yeah And would you want to be a part of a small group of people that we just commit yeah that every year we're going to spend time together for what you've just described? Yeah. And as a, yeah, absolutely. It's gold. And to be able to develop that. It's, I would hope that even our listeners maybe would be inspired that, man, who are, who are those people that you could say, hey, listen, um we're going to commit to really invest in, to develop and invest a level of candor, trustworthiness, right honesty, one anothering.
Speaker: And and it's it really is incredibly, c incredibly refreshing. Especially if Bebo Norman's there. Yeah, my God. So am I right am i right that Norman is a doctor now?
Speaker: He is a physician's assistant. He might as well. he yeah it yeah Yes. Like white coat. I think, I think you tell him, you you tell him there are some, there are some old college cats from the, you know, from the late nineties that really like we're into, into Bebo Norman. lesson i tell You tell them that they're the good old guys at the, you know, the podcast. russian joe we're we're fair sure And I think that I messaged him.
Speaker: to try to get him to do a conversation like this. Oh, no kidding. Because, you know, we find people around like, that person be interesting to talk to. I've been with Normandy. This is from the past, you know, so. And it's so sweet that to you, it's the he's your friend. Yeah.
Speaker: And it's, and it's really, it's really fun to be able to Alan in some ways to have a, and that's how relationships is, right? It's like, go Oh, look, here's a connecting point. And ah that, that, that we're sharing with you even through, through different means. So that's, you know, I will say this, that that whether he, whether he likes it or not, Bebo has now become the resident physician. So this last time we were together, it was kind of like, Hey Bebo, would you look at this?
Speaker: Absolutely. my wife hates My wife hates it when I do that too. Doctors at church. I don't have any problem. great oh yeah everybody has it i'm sure I'm sure that he commits mile practice every time we get together. Hey, we'll talk about that, Rush. maybe Maybe y'all could get people to come talk with you about man it. Man, that would be amazing. We would love that. We would really love that. We would enjoy Yeah, we would love that. Hey, can I say something before we go any farther? Sure. just want to make sure I get this in.
Speaker: So Rush, i've I finished Die Hard Sins. Oh, yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yes. And ah so we were talking about wonder a minute ago and personability and things of that sort. ah There's a lot of that in your book. i would And I would think that that people who read it or people that you have counseled with or you know you've been a part of their life, I would think that they've probably come away with your encounters saying, it is wonderful to have someone who can take me where I am, who can empathize with me.
Speaker: and Absolutely. and lead me to a good place. So thank you for what you've done. And i encourage you to keep up the good work. Oh, that's right. I'm sure you're this the same could be said of you, but conversations like this, I hope would encourage all of us to stay the course.
Speaker: Absolutely. and you And you know what? I tell you what, it's... um It's been such a joy to just spend just a few moments with you. And ah as your as your life is full and you have different things that are happening for you to be kind to us and to express that by spending some time And to be honest with you, on it's just been so enriching to be able just to spend time with you, to think and to explore ah wonder together yeah in how God has moved and has ah kind of brought together different aspects of your life and the way that you think. So genuinely. resonated and resonated with the heartbeats of russian i so i can see now why when rush engaged with you he gave me a call and he's like he's like joe man i just met aad he's just i really a joke i think man could we invite him to go hang out on the podcast because i think
Speaker: i think the way that the i think is you'd be a really interesting person to talk to and i think we would be encouraged and and and enjoy time with him. And I'm telling you what, that certainly has been true. So thanks so much for spending time with us. You're welcome. Let me say too that I think that after Rush and I met, I placed a very similar call to my niece who was somehow in in the loop there, Rush.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. and and And told her how much I enjoyed what little time we spent together there. Maybe maybe we end with this thought here. Thomas Carlyle once wrote that wonder, since that seems to be part of our conversation here, wonder is the basis of worship.
Speaker: And conversations like this, I hope, facilitate that in all of us. And for anyone who listens, that you know that sense of wonder would lead us closer to the heaven that we're all in. Indeed it has. Indeed it has. Indeed.
Speaker: You're very kind.
Speaker: I'm telling you this podcast, the excuse of just engaging with people yeah and the ways in which that you can find and engage with people.
Speaker: in a way that has interest in them, that I'm telling you, it is just so enriching. i mean, what he said about, Hey, I don't have, don't have a movie theater. I don't have other things around me whatever, but my life is full yeah because, because I am engaged in and considering the things that are around me and allowing the beauty and the challenge and the enrichment from that, making a connection between who he is what he's observing and who his God is. And then for us to be able to engage in that,
Speaker: ah with with others on on this podcast. And this one, I tell you this was like all gold stars. And you wonder why, though, is that we have found every once in a while, because we we are willing to and enjoy engaging with all different kinds of people. Like you don't have to be a Christ follower in order to be on this show. And and the show isn't isn't necessarily designed in a way um to, you know, to... to be able to promote or to talk about particular themes related to who God is and his word, but it, but it is the activity of being human.
Speaker: And when you are able to connect that curiosity with someone who has new life in them because of what Christ has done, the,
Speaker: the ability to make those levels of connection is, is so visibly supernatural and so visibly real in terms of what it means to be human, to make connections between heaven and earth and to do that together relationally.
Speaker: Like that's what, that's what Alan gave me today he gave me some more language to that. He gave me an illustration of that. He gave me the, ah honestly, honestly, just the inspiration and the encouragement to lean in on that. To be, yeah. not to distracted by other things and not to be overwhelmed by other things. To be intentional was a big thing that, you know, I don't think that he mentioned this in the conversation, but I heard him before say that he doesn't own a TV. Yeah.
Speaker: and so And he's never owned a TV. And so just that small fact, that doesn't change everything for somebody, but that small fact that his life is, is cleared out from a lot of the things that make it hard to be intentional and not just intentional, like, Oh, I got to go, you know. have conversations with people or whatever, but a kind of cheerful intentionality. Like that like the the thing that he was talking about going, what was it? Like three days a week, he goes and stands while the kids come out of the bus or- Yeah, for an hour. Right? and and just And just to look at them and just greet them. I mean, that's the kind of intentionality that-
Speaker: we get we get lost we you know We lose because of just the classic things. They're easy targets, like the scrolling and the JV and the streaming and all that stuff. but it didn be But it is he really is interesting.
Speaker: Yeah, it is interesting that I just, I think that, don't know, just for you and me, I mean, I think that this project that we we're working on and that we're continuing to do is, is the intentional effort. Cause it does, right. I mean, it takes a lot of time to like, does get the things together and to work it all out. But, but that, that level of that level of um thoughtfulness and work has at its core to continue to keep sharp on engaging with people to be able to discover, um,
Speaker: how humanity how humanity is really so interesting to know and to understand and then to be able to engage in it a way that's also reciprocal. yeah And certainly, certainly.
Speaker: And that's authentic. And the Bebo Norman closer. Man, I have not heard the name Bebo Norman So it's like, golly, maybe 2003. And that's one of those things. That's one of those things where we like say something and we don't, I don't think, I don't know that anybody else, I think, does anybody else even know who that is? i mean, I'm sure they do, but I do. i mean, not today's generation, but there is, mean, yeah you know what it is? It was, um you know who he's got, um he's got vibes of is I think he was the original Andrew Peterson.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. A lot like that for sure. You know what mean? Yeah. Like it was like, he was, ah I just like his vibe, it was like pre-jack johnson pre you know, it was like, and his vibe, his vibe was, ah I mean, again, it was different because you got to remember during that time. I mean, that was like, that was like,
Speaker: DC Talk Jesus Freak. That was like, like that kind thing. It's like Newsboys. i suppose it was He was definitely deeper you know to Christian music at a time when I really when i really needed that. and I know. I know. it just It was like this, like, oh, wait a minute. There's a way of reflection and and how he did that. I'm sorry. I lost my mind. I literally lost my mind.
Speaker: was like, man. It was like, it was like those moments. are That's so funny. Rush, that's another thing. It is another thing. That's so funny. We were just like, we were just, I mean, for the, our listeners and maybe are listening in on this is like,
Speaker: It's like, Rush and I actually like a part of this project is actually our continued friendship and the enjoyment of each other. We we continue to find these like these like bizarre these bi bizarre connecting points that we really were kind of living parallel lives. And Bebo Norman. i know. Bebo Norman. Yet another one, Rush. Maybe he'll get on here with us Put it in the bucket. You think he get we can get him on here with us?
Speaker: gosh. I think we can. But we can't talk about throwing up in our mouths with Bebo Norman. But you can't with Alan, though. Dude, all I'm saying is that's why he's so authentic. Like a guy that can come on the conversation and talk about something so normal as thrown up in your mouth because you feel overwhelmed.
Speaker: Oh, gosh. And all I'm saying is that that is that you did that, you did that, and then that's going to make our pre the pre part of the show like our vant of the vant. That just like that runs all the way through, and I hate you and love you for it.
Speaker: If you enjoyed Alan Levi as much as we did, you're going to love the rest of season two. So be sure to subscribe and don't miss a minute of our interesting conversations with complete strangers.
Speaker: And don't forget to check the show notes for a link to get your copy of Alan Levi's incredible novel, Theo of Golden. And we'll see you next time on The Most Interesting Person in the World.
