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Going in-house with Cliff Stevens
552 Plays2 years ago
Cliff Stevens is the VP and managing director of Copper Giants, the in-house agency for Liberty Mutual. We talked with Cliff about his years of experience in the agency world and how he brought that experience into Liberty Mutual to build a best in class agency within the larger organization. In house agencies have unique challenges and opportunities and we explore how Cliff's approach to Copper Giants applies to the work all of us content people do every day.
Check out Cliff on Linked in at https://www.linkedin.com/in/clifford-stevens-b9115112
Content People is produced by Brafton, a leading content marketing agency headquartered in Boston. For more information and free content, visit us at https://www.brafton.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to Content People Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Content People, a podcast where we talk to smart people about creative work, creative leadership, and their career journeys. This podcast is produced by Brafton. Brafton is a content marketing company powered by a global team of creative professionals and marketing experts. My name is Meredith Farley. I'm the COO at Brafton. I oversee our creative production and service teams, and I'm here with Ian Serbin. Hey, everybody.
00:00:33
Speaker
Ian's our creative director video who's producing this podcast. Ian, thank you so much for doing this. Absolutely. And I think we have another really standout episode with Cliff today. I'm super excited about this one.
00:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, I'm so glad that we got to talk to Cliff.
Meet Cliff Stevens of Copper Giants
00:00:49
Speaker
Cliff Stevens is the VP and Managing Director of Copper Giants, which is the in-house creative agency for Liberty Mutual Insurance. Cliff spoke with us about creating a best-in-class in-house agency, the unique challenges and opportunities of scaling and nurturing a creative team in
00:01:07
Speaker
that fast-paced and demanding environment and Cliff also just has such a Full robust like kind of traditional madmen style ad agency background. I feel like he was really really fun to talk to. Absolutely. Yeah What did you think about the conversation? Did anything about it surprise you?
In-House vs. Agency Work: Challenges and Opportunities
00:01:25
Speaker
Oh, I related a lot to just some of the challenges of working in-house. I've worked in-house before, and I've also worked with other in-house agencies. So I did a project a long time ago with Team Detroit, which is Ford's in-house agency. And you see some of those same things, those same challenges, but also the same opportunities and resources too. And so it's really interesting hearing an actual leader from an in-house agency talk about
00:01:52
Speaker
how they very intentionally built this thing, which it's really cool.
00:01:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think intentional build is like the right way to frame what he's done there. And yeah, I liked it a lot. I feel like also Cliff's been really creative. Like we dig into it more in the conversation, but traditionally in the creative world, I feel like there's always combos about agency versus in-house. And I feel like, you know, they've got the pros and cons agency. It's like a fire hose of experience, information, constant learning, constantly expanding your network and your portfolio.
00:02:26
Speaker
but also it's a lot and it can be really tiring. In-house is sometimes like deeper and more specific work, but over time people can start to say, oh, I'm a little bit bored or I feel like I'm not growing my experience. But he's done a really cool thing by running an in-house agency where he's also started to look for opportunities
00:02:46
Speaker
outside to bring in just so that his staff can get cool experience like the local brewery that he's working with seemed like a really cool project. I thought it was really interesting way to do that and try and keep his folks around for as long as he can.
Fostering Innovation in In-House Teams
00:02:58
Speaker
Yeah, I love it. He talked, I think, a lot about innovation, and I think as a concept, innovation sounds really cool, but it's so challenging to figure out how do you do innovation? How do you foster that? I think talking to him about some of those specific strategies was really useful.
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah, that was a great, really fun combo. So we are just starting this content people podcast journey. We hope that you guys enjoy it and stick with us and that you like our conversation with Cliff.
00:03:37
Speaker
Cliff, thank you so much for spending some time today. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. You're so nice. Excited. Excited to do this. Yeah, I'm excited too.
Role and Formation of Copper Giants
00:03:49
Speaker
So Cliff, can you explain to everybody listening kind of your current role now
00:03:57
Speaker
But I'd also, well, I'm also going to ask you about your career journey and how you got to where you are. But right now you're the head of Copper Giants. Can you kind of explain to folks who aren't familiar with it what that is and what you do? Sure. How do you do? So Cliff Stevens, I'm the VP Managing Director of Copper Giants.
00:04:18
Speaker
agency at Liberty Mutual Insurance. So big fortune 100 company a long time ago about four or five years ago six years ago they decided to make an investment in building the creative capabilities for Liberty so they could have options right can they work with external agencies could they work with their internal teams and so they made an investment to say look let's let's try and
00:04:42
Speaker
I got called in 2016-2017 to help create a new vision and a new shape for that. My current role is overseeing a small agency inside Liberty. We've got about 30 full-time employees. We average about four to six contractors in any given month. We also have a global onshore partner and a global offshore partner so that we can flex our work. We've got
00:05:07
Speaker
options to manage the capabilities for Liberty Mutual. And our team is made up similar to other agencies that you see out there. We've got a creative department headed by an executive creative director. So you've got writers and art directors and email specialists and illustrators. You've got a design studio design team with our associate design director leading the charge there. We've got project management and production. And then we've also got our operations.
00:05:34
Speaker
So it's our strategic operations that really looks at our current state of our organization, what's our financial value, what's our tech stack that we're working with, and then how do we basically create all the work for the reading tool that we oversee within our scope.
Origin and Evolution of Copper Giants
00:05:50
Speaker
Man, thanks. Now, I realize one thing I'm actually not sure of is when you started
00:05:56
Speaker
Were you kind of creating copper giants from scratch? Was it like the startup within Liberty Mutual or was it already in existence in some form or another when you came into the picture?
00:06:08
Speaker
Great question. So it was already in existence in some form. It was the credit group. So a lot of in-house agencies over the past five to 10 years have really started to make that investment into their in-house teams. And so my predecessor was actually, I was fortunate to work with at a previous agency. So I got to know him and I knew a few of the folks that had joined him as part of this growth.
00:06:30
Speaker
Once they parted ways they said we needed someone with a business development and an account management based background to shape the operation and Copper Giants was born out of our five-year plan and that was the first task. They said look like there's some great people here We've got you know a good group of folks. We just need a new path and what it's new
00:06:50
Speaker
value could be at Liberty. So can you help us with that? And that's where, based on my agency experience, working at different companies and agencies and brands, try to figure out with my leadership team, what's the best thing that we could do here? And that was where we eventually basically created Copper Giants. And that's what we've been working on for the past almost five years now at this point. Got it. That makes sense.
00:07:11
Speaker
how did you come up with the name copper giants? I'm obsessed with it. I love it. You say it and I picture like enormous monumental statues. It's just so great. Thank you. And to be honest, I would say it's probably one of my favorite briefs I've ever had to help write for our agency when we were kind of starting out. But it was to create the identity, right? So one of the key stakes of our five year plan was, let's really make sure that we can create a good culture for our team. And
00:07:39
Speaker
How do we also create great relationships with our marketing partners so they want to work more closely with us? Mark and identity came along with that. We wanted to feel that we were this mighty group that could take on any type of creative challenge in front of us and we could do it with the right positive energy out there. The idea of Copper Giants was in a brief. We came up with hundreds of names, we narrowed it down, and we knew that we had
00:08:05
Speaker
you know, certain criteria. We wanted to make sure that it could stand the test of time, you know, as a name, as if you're going to name an agency, something that you want to have to rename in three to five years, but, you know, has some longevity. We want to make sure there was a connection to Liberty Mutual because we're built from Liberty. It couldn't be something that felt random or too cool for school, right? We wanted to make sure it was, you know, had that nice connectivity to the brand. You know, we wanted to have this idea of this magnetic culture. And so,
00:08:33
Speaker
that magnetic culture was really about the relationships we were building and creating it and also the energy that we provide as a group. So ultimately we bricked it in and Copper Giants is Lady Liberty's original nickname. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes, it's got a little bit of history there and it's a nice nod to that. So it really has been sort of the mark, the identity and sort of the rallying cry for our teams and we want people to be kind of proud of that badge.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah. Oh my God. That sounds like such a fun naming process. And I feel like you guys nailed it. It's so evocative. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Seeing, seeing, uh, you know, the team that created it win an award at like the, I half awards for like the name of the identity and having them go on stage. I think it was a highlight. I think one of the highlights of my career to see that group and you know, young people just creating the name of an agency and alone is probably one of the best creative opportunities you could provide. So love that they've had that.
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah, man, that's great.
Balancing Remote Work and Leadership
00:09:26
Speaker
All right, so what is your average day like? What's a day in Cliff's life? It's a great question. Personally, I wake up and I try and get a workout in and then I try and feed the kids before they get on the bus, especially now that we've all been remote for the past three years.
00:09:41
Speaker
And I like that time with my kids because I get a chance to see them grow up in this early age. But my professional side is a range. It can be a range of anything from connecting with some of our global markets about what we're doing in the United States and how we might be able to help support them with some of their initiatives.
00:10:01
Speaker
Meeting with my leadership team to do some of our planning and looking at our operations and how things have been running so far Throughout the first quarter in the second quarter It could be what's our new opportunities that we're planning for down the road and how our teams managing towards that It could be talent-based scenarios where we're looking at You know
00:10:19
Speaker
who is doing really well and who were the areas that we need to support certain people, both professionally and personally, especially in this day and age, where we want to make sure that people have really good balance at work. We want to make sure that we're looking out for our crew in a really good way. It's also a lot of leadership conversations with my peers and with my boss, General LaBelle, who's our CMO, and having good, rich conversations about where the work is, what's next, and how do we make sure that our team is
00:10:48
Speaker
So it literally is a huge range. It's operations, it's support for teams, it's meeting with different partners across the organization to understand what they're doing on the business so I can translate that back to the agency so they've got context on how the business is doing. So a lot of those kind of crucial components to make sure that our team is super efficient and knows what's happening across the org, but then can get their work done in the best way possible.
Managing Operational Challenges
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, no, it makes sense. I feel like one thing about, you know,
00:11:17
Speaker
big management roles like yours and everywhere is that at the start of the day, I feel like you never know what the day will truly bring because it could bring great news, but also it could bring potentially stressful, disruptive challenges that need immediate and urgent attention. And like one thing that I feel like I've noticed is that I think when people, like for example, managers on my teams who may be, when they move up to like a new level,
00:11:46
Speaker
the greater responsibility, the thing that's actually most stressful is there's a greater number of potential unknown unpredictable problems that could come at them at any point in the day. And like that can be stressful to like, get used to. How do you deal with that?
00:12:03
Speaker
I love this because this goes to that operational side of my brain that I connect with. Whether it's a catalyst of being at Liberty Mutual, which assesses risk on a regular basis, or just the nature of
00:12:17
Speaker
Like my experience before here is how do I make sure that I'm set up for any of those types of challenges? So that could be a talent challenge, right? Like if I have a talent challenge that says, hey, you know, a couple of years ago we had some tough conversations with some of our employees and we had to let some good people go. So, but being able to manage for that conversation, like we had prepared for that, right? Like, how do we make sure that we've got the right conversations? How do we get our teams ready to say, hey, this is what's happening in the business and this is why, and make sure that they still feel that value. So I think of it as like,
00:12:46
Speaker
How do I make sure that I'm always trying to stay ahead so that if I get a huge piece of work, I know how to plan for that, right? And how to manage that so we can prioritize it the right way. Or, hey, we know that we've got another team or another market that's looking to understand what copper giants does. Can you jump on a call to talk them through that? Or, you know, hey, during COVID.
00:13:06
Speaker
we needed to figure out how to build a customer auto relief fund, which was giving, I think it was around 250 to $300 million back to customers during that time, which a lot of insurance companies were. So we had to be ready to create a name in less than 48 hours and make sure that it could work for the insurance category. But the reality is that the system that we have set up can plan for that. And that's where I think the opportunity realizes that we can constantly think ahead of, not necessarily to be risk-averse, but to be a risk advantage.
00:13:34
Speaker
That for me is a true opportunity and it's a constant learning. Okay, what else could happen? And it's not that you're, you know, saying, Hey, this could be the worst thing happened. How would we plan for that? You just make sure your, your system and your groups and your people are empowered and, and running on all cylinders. And that way if something changes, we can adapt to it really well without it being emotional or, um, impactful. We can kind of plan for it, adapt, and then get back to like our day to day work without it kind of taking us over for lack of a better word.
Leadership and Empowerment in Teams
00:14:03
Speaker
Yeah, like in kind of like volatile environments, maybe like agencies, I think what you're saying is you need to be planning, you need your systems to not just support, but also kind of thrive in moments where there's a sudden but unexpected like input of some kind.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. I would say we look a lot regularly at our operating report for our team. How much work are we handling? What's working well? How can I help as the leader, you know, with situations that might be happening or, hey, we've got a team that is giving us an influx of work when they were planning
00:14:45
Speaker
there. And those for me at this point aren't difficult. They're just the net reality of the business as opposed to, oh my gosh, we just got overlooked with all this work. What are we going to do? It's like, no, we can handle that. And then it's about how do I translate that down with the teams and think about a different way. So they feel good that we're making the right decisions, we're making the right relationship calls, and we're prioritizing that work. And so we do have a pretty good rigorous prioritization model that's helped us
00:15:13
Speaker
work with us on that, and also understand what we can and can't do. And at the same time, if we can't do it, then we've got other options. We've got a global offshore partner that might be able to help us out with some work, or we've got a big freelancer network. So there's the works out of it. There's also new things that could come our way. And how do we take that on? And we get into that prioritization model and say, OK, what's the most important thing for Liberty? What's the most important thing for our employees? And we look at that on a pretty regular basis to balance it out, and we can make those calls pretty easily.
00:15:41
Speaker
Yeah, no, it makes sense. And I feel like a benefit to like time on job, you start to know and learn. You're like, okay, these are like the 18 problems that I can run into. They may be skinned in different ways, but like, these are the solutions. This is how we build to be able to handle them. And then I think the next challenge, which I think you're kind of referenced to is like, then
00:16:03
Speaker
training your folks on like, Hey guys, oh, you stay calm. This is what you do when this happens. This is how we're cheerful as opposed to stressful about it. Yeah. And the other side is that's where you got to bring some of the, I'll call it the hungry, you know, a younger town up into those real conversations.
00:16:19
Speaker
Like, that's something I think I've learned throughout my years when I was on the Exeter Lane stuff is I always wanted to know what the leadership was talking about, right? Like, how are you making those calls? What were those in the room moment types of situations? And if there's anything I can do now is, okay, who are the champions within my team that can help with that? And I got good feedback from that.
00:16:37
Speaker
That was great feedback, saying, hey, we want to make sure that there isn't as much of a gap between you and the, call it our front lines of the day-to-day work. How do we fix that? And now we've got more integrated leadership meetings where we hear from our project managers and our leaders there to say, hey, how are the conversations going with our partners? Anything I can help with? And so it becomes a much more fluid conversation rather than situation, swap team it, figure it out. It's like, OK, how do we just consistently optimize what we're doing? And can we do something better next quarter? Could we do a post-mortem on how that works?
00:17:10
Speaker
this continuous improvement mindset. But it really is like, how do you be transparent with those folks? I think that's part of that has really helped me at least for copper giants is to say, look, this is the reality of where we're at. And so building that trust with my folks and the people there so they can be like, okay, I kind of know where we're going with all this and I can understand the decision making on it. Or I can just reach out to Cliff and ask, right, like instead of time. So being accessible for that. Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. And I feel like probably,
00:17:38
Speaker
in a role like yours, like the fact that you come up through the ranks through different, in different roles at different spots really helps to empathize and understand and communicate effectively with, with your whole
Cliff Stevens' Career Journey
00:17:51
Speaker
team. So actually I'm really interested. It would be great for you to walk through, like, what is your career journey thus far? How did you get to this spot?
00:17:58
Speaker
Good call. I'll try and make this quick as I'm a talker as you know But I started in New York as like a young assistant accounting executive at LGBT I was working on Listerine pocket pack strips is my first account
00:18:11
Speaker
you know, I need little about the, you know, the advertising industry, but I really started to understand the impact of marketing creative and also learning the linear process. And so I worked on Listerine, Benadryl, there was Pocket Mist as well. So like consumer product, consumer packaged goods based products within sort of the Pfizer healthcare world. And then moved over to Domino's Pizza. So I was working on QSR, right?
00:18:35
Speaker
High-speed volume of production lots of work there made a move over to draft FCB in New York Still in the account management track working on Gerber and craft This initial hundred calorie packs and then get an opportunity to go down to Crispin in Miami to work at a hop creative shop back in the you know mid 2000s and so to see
00:18:54
Speaker
But Guskey and his crew there how they would create works. I was working on BW After Miami and when I went down to Miami I had this five-year plan to basically say I'm gonna go down to Miami for about a year year and a half and then make my move out West to kind of learn and see what the You know the good bees the Venables the McCann's out there we're doing and see if there was sort of a different point of view from a West Coast perspective and also just to live there because
00:19:15
Speaker
is the beauty of advertising. So I moved out to McCann and worked at McCann from 2007 to 2009 on the Microsoft business. So learning more a little bit on the B2B side, the IT director.
00:19:28
Speaker
after McCann, moved back to Boston, worked at Hill Holiday for seven years, which was, you know, as I've said to others, like where I grew up. That was that moment where I finally got a chance to really help shape work for Bank of America, worked in new business, helped win new business, worked on Cadillac and ran the Cadillac account, working with partners in Detroit and different teams, moved over to Duncan. And then after a few years on Duncan, which was an amazing account to work on,
00:19:56
Speaker
I got a great opportunity to go out to McGarry Bowen in San Francisco to run their San Francisco office. And I had a managing director based in New York, but it was really about that group there and how to shape that team and scale it and its value.
00:20:07
Speaker
And when I was out there, I was working with two awesome clients. I was working with Intel as our major client. And I was working with Clorox with two of their brands. And I was watching both of these organizations build their in-house creative capabilities in front of me. So as an external agency team, I'm seeing Theresa Hurd, who's amazing, build a 90-person shop in two years. And she's creating this amazing digital creative content and a very turnkey-based production approach to basically going and capturing that content and scaling that value for Intel.
00:20:36
Speaker
And the flip side of that was watching Clorox build a very systematic based in-house agency with very good, easy systems so that they weren't really leaning into their developers or engineers as much. They actually had a cross for consumer advantage goods. So I had kind of two different versions of in-house agencies and I wasn't going to be able to really grow a lot of scope within those scenarios. So I was like, okay, this
00:21:02
Speaker
And I had enough of an idea of well, I've got two great partners here that I can learn from and then could I do something differently at Liberty where I can use that external agency world and then what I'm seeing from the in-house agency trends that are out there and create this group that we've done with copper giants.
00:21:18
Speaker
So that was the fastest I've ever done. So it can go on for quite a little bit. So thanks for asking. No, I mean, it's like an exhaustive roster of like impressive moves and moments though. And whenever you've talked about your background, I picture you in like a Mad Men vibe. Like I'm thinking you're in a suit. It's the sixties. You're going out west to see what's happening at McCann. Like it's so, it's so cool. I feel like you have to have a really good book in you about your career thus far.
00:21:48
Speaker
I'd imagine. You know, like that would be fun to write. That's the best part about advertising and marketing is the people you meet, the stories you have. Like I still reminisce with so many of the great creatives and teams that you go through the trenches with and certain, you know, accounts that you
00:22:03
Speaker
the road trips that you do to leave New York and you're in like a rental car trying to make it home because all the flights are done like these like that that just like well I'll take with me forever and I love that and I still reconnect with all those folks. I still try and make sure that I can reach back out to folks I worked with early in my career that had an impact on me or folks that I've worked with in the last few years just to reconnect and see where they're at in life because everyone's being everyone's taking different journeys and I love learning from that and I love the reconnection with different people on
00:22:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's been fun. I would say I can't say I don't love my job on this for sure. No, I get it. And I mean, well, you've had such a super, in some ways, really, you've hit the traditional stops along the way of some really big name agencies. And I think probably worked on some pretty cutting edge, edgy projects.
Innovation in the Insurance Industry
00:22:58
Speaker
And one question I have is that,
00:23:01
Speaker
I think, so I don't mean this as shade at all against insurance companies, but when I think insurance companies, I don't necessarily think like agile, creative disruptors, like kicking the doors in and pushing boundaries. But I feel like the work you like to do is, is very, um, you know, thoughtful and not necessarily like, um, just following prototype. So what is it like to be trying to create something new and maybe a little edgy in an environment
00:23:30
Speaker
like an insurance agency? Sure, great question. So I would say two parts. I get a lot of credit to the leaders that hired me and asked me to come. So like Emily Fink and Jenna Lavelle were awesome. They're great now. They've got a great perspective on the brand and what they wanted to create. And then it was like, hey, we need your experience to help shape this thing. You know there's something here. We know there's something great. And that was really where we set that five-year plan.
00:23:57
Speaker
So that alone gave me a little bit of the autonomy to build that year over year, right? Like what are we going to do year one and create a copper giant so we add additional value? What's the additional value you're going to build year two? And so I'd say the flip of it is like the operation helped us create two things.
00:24:16
Speaker
a really efficient operation that had value to the organization by saving the company millions of dollars every year by doing this work at house. And so that was a good bottom line of trust and value that the organization was like, okay, well, now can you do the work? And it's like, yeah, we can do the work, right? So now it's about like, what's that talent that you can then attract? And that's where this sort of, I wouldn't say give and take, but just the parallel nature of like, let's make sure this really works for liberty, but let's make sure that we're always bringing great talent and can we attract and retain that talent.
00:24:44
Speaker
And do they buy into this idea of moving in-house and you know, what is that opportunity for them? And so that vision was part of it. I'd say the flip of that is like, you know, hitting really more on the like agile and the creative side and how do you create great work? There is a ton of that actually at Liberty that people probably aren't even aware of.
00:25:01
Speaker
I have a peer who runs a UX design-based group that is all about the unique experiences and modernizing them for Liberty Mutual. And that is a very big focus, as most companies are, of whether you're going through a digital transformation, you're going through a CX transformation, you're going through modernizing your product portfolio. There's an entire team of analysts, researchers, POs, Scrum Master squads that is all focused on modernizing
00:25:27
Speaker
physical experience for that. And then for us, as we look at that consumer facing media, how do we champion that? How do we create new work that creates entertainment value for our people? And what's the evolution of that work? How do we make the Statue of Liberty work, for example? That's been out for over eight years.
00:25:46
Speaker
ideas with new creatives that can have a good look at it. And that's where we hired great talent to be able to do that. We hired a guy named Bill Girard out of Arnold's after 22 and a half years there to say, Hey, you worked on progressive for a little while. Like what else could you add his value to this work? And I knew right off the bat that this is an area that he could absolutely add to that. And how do you create that environment?
00:26:06
Speaker
That was, it's been interesting. Like I would say that the disruption is really about more of like the evolution for us. And how do we constantly think about how we make this thing better? Because we're not a challenge brand. And that's the flip is like, if we were a smaller brand and we were trying to do that, I'd say we'd probably have a slightly different strategy. Now it's about how do you play with the guy goes to progress of the state farms to garner more
00:26:32
Speaker
operations and great creative talent that actually can scale that value and has enough experience to say this is what can happen next. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. That's really interesting.
Retaining Creative Talent
00:26:42
Speaker
I like what you said to you about like, you're not really disrupting, but it's a continued evolution of a successful and established company. But like the talent that you're touching on, like everybody is in a talent war.
00:26:57
Speaker
It's crazy right now for managers, leaders, businesses who are trying to find the right people and then keep those folks around with them and satisfied and energized and not feeling curious about other options and or burned out. What do you think creative leaders need to focus on right now to try and keep their best people around?
00:27:21
Speaker
You know, I have a soapbox and it's called like vision and like five-year chapter. And I believe in that inherently. I've had some great conversations with some leaders recently and I think the best thing that we ever did was that original ask from Emily and Jenna, can you build us a five-year plan? And to kind of, I keep hitting on that in this conversation with you and I'm probably dancing around it a little bit, but the reality is that five-year plan needed in True North. And the True North was like, let's become a best-in-class agency and how do we define what that is?
00:27:49
Speaker
And the reality is that what have we got so good that we could not only work on just Liberty Mutual work, but we could work on external brands.
00:27:56
Speaker
And people were like, wait, what? You're an in-house agency. Why would they let you do that? And the reality was it was this pinnacle moment that we have now reached after being here for five years. But it helped us scale the capabilities, the value, the talent, the teams. And we've been able to retain the majority of our talent for about four or five years because they wanted to build this best-in-class agency. Because at the end of the day, once we met that moment,
00:28:23
Speaker
They now would have an opportunity to work on more than just liberty mutual right so we're working currently right now with harpoon brewery and it's an awesome partnership where teams have a stretch assignment it's not a big project but it's a great project for us to help out a local based brand we all know and love especially the boston area and create some good social content.
00:28:41
Speaker
And then the teams can also take that energy and put it back into the Liberty Mutual work, right? So there's this give and take, and that's where we're going to start to scale that project-based work over the next year, two years, and then figure out where it can actually go at that point. So that's something that's unique in category that we didn't see in other areas. I think other folks have thought about their talent model, but that helps me attract talent, helps me keep it.
00:29:04
Speaker
And now we're hiring, like I said, some amazing talent like a Bill Girard from Arnold. And we just hired Josh Tetreault, who's the former global creative director for Kuma, who was at Arnold for a number of years of that helping tape flow out of the superstore. And so these are great talent that are something like, oh.
00:29:21
Speaker
What's copper giants doing? And it's like, hey, do you want to get a chance to work on Liberty Moots one? I'll shake this brand for the future and also hey, by the way when you need a breather you need a side project I want to see that here because it's a great development opportunity for you and you know can be part of our plans here
Plans for Staff Growth and Retention
00:29:37
Speaker
Got it. No, I mean, I think it's so smart So let me try and say this back because I think what you're saying is that you were you're like, okay here's the five-year plan for copper giants but as part of this and
00:29:49
Speaker
both from a talent, interest, and retention perspective, and also probably I'd imagine maybe from a commercial perspective, you wanted to scale an in-house agency that could take on external clients. So you give your staff and teams the opportunity to build out their resumes while they're with you, focusing on Liberty Mutual, but also trying out interesting projects.
00:30:11
Speaker
they're maybe a little more enticed than they would be otherwise to stay with Liberty Mutual or just any one brand for a while because they're kind of getting best of both worlds, in-house agency, and then some really cool side projects.
00:30:23
Speaker
You just articulated that way better than I have. No, but the reality is exactly that, right? Because we look a lot, going back to that operation, we look at our cycles of where our work's coming from, right? Like just like any in-house agency or external agency, you're going to have certain periods where you've got people maxed out and they're, you know, burn them at night at home. We try not to do that, obviously, at Liberty Mutual because we want the work-life balance, but they might be working a 40 or 50 hour work week or maybe a little bit more.
00:30:49
Speaker
And then there's other times where projects are a little bit lighter because we're in a planning mode for the company. And so at that moment where maybe people aren't max and they're like 60% or 70% usage, we want to fill that bucket so that they can actually have something that inspires them while they're doing the rest of their day-to-day work. So if we can kind of keep that nice equilibrium throughout the year with folks, that's a nice sweet spot. It creates good balance for the person. It creates good growth for them. They get to work at Liberty, which has an amazing amount of benefits of working in a big company, a Fortune 100 company.
00:31:19
Speaker
And also, to your point, we can actually have talent that gets excited about, hey, look at all this work I made. It's not just Liberty, which is awesome, but I've also got some great social content for Harpoon, or maybe it's another type of brand that they've had a passion for, or maybe it's just a channel that they never had an opportunity to work on. Hey, I've never built a landing page or website. Is that something you can all do? Yeah, I'd love to help you with that.
00:31:39
Speaker
Right. So it does help a ton. And it's been one of those things where people, you know, like our team has been amazing about that. And that also helps them create advocacy for not just themselves, but for the group as well and to create different things. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. Like one thing I feel like you're touching on that I think is really interesting is that I think sometimes as managers, it can be that some managers might feel
00:32:08
Speaker
It's uncomfortable or worrisome to be having like consistently open conversations with their teams about what do you want to do next? And how do I help you build your resume here? It feels like threatening, but I actually feel like it's imperative. Um, cause just because you don't talk about it, it doesn't mean it's not like a present and real force in everyone's life. Um, so it seems like you take a really open approach where you're like, Hey, look, I want to keep you around what brands do you want to work on? How do we keep you energized for as long as we can hear?
00:32:38
Speaker
And you're kind of having like really collaborative, thoughtful, directed, and open conversations and plans with your individual team members. Is that kind of right? 100%. I would say that level of transparency and also the advocacy for those folks, like I'm going to get them to as much as I can for them at Liberty Mutual, right? So if you're a junior and you've come in, let's figure out what that path looks like over the next.
00:33:01
Speaker
4-5 years and how do we kind of champion that and that is a reciprocal relationship because then they have goals and they're clear and they know how to like where they can work and then you can transfer our conversations when things are working well when they're not working well. I'd say for a lot of those folks that are trying to figure out like in mid-year in their careers like what's next
00:33:19
Speaker
I'll map out those five years with them. I'll sit down with them. Hey, hey, like what do you want to be when you grow up? Like kind of like what we said with the agency, but from an individual. Hey, if you're a project manager, do you want to go be a product owner on the Liberty side or do you want to go be head of project management and external agency?
00:33:34
Speaker
And so I want career paths that people are inspired by and then say, look, do this with us for the next two to three years. I had a thought when I first got here because I noticed the cycles of turnovers at external agencies was something that was challenging, right? Like when you're in an agency, you're there for like a CMO sometimes you're there for like 18 months to three years. And so I had a goal is like, if I can keep people
00:33:54
Speaker
for four years, that's more productive, I'm not onboarding, I'm not training, I'm not recruiting, like all of those components that can take away from the day-to-day work and development that can reduce that, then I can actually make the work incrementally better every single year. So that takes more effort for me and my leadership team to lean in and say, okay, so how do we help shape your next, not like year,
00:34:15
Speaker
But like, what's your next two to three years? And so some of them are having just the year conversations, which are good. And that keeps people motivated. And some people are having conversations that are about, hey, in two or three years, let's figure out whether we can do something here for you at Liberty Mutual. And if not, then I'll help network my butt off for you outside because you've put in all this effort and energy into our team to shape who we are. And so that's those conversations that I love having with folks in our teams.
00:34:39
Speaker
And then at the end of the day, they hopefully appreciate it. Or if they do leave, then at least they leave with good thoughts about copper giants. And it was a badge of honor rather than like, I'm out of here. Free. Finally free. Yeah. So I want people to say, this was a tough call. And I got a great opportunity to step in my game. That's the best moment for me in my career is when I see someone kind of grow, shape. And then all of a sudden, you say those comments, I'm going to work for you someday. And they actually mean it.
00:35:08
Speaker
um yeah so it's uh it's i think those are those key things is like how do you kind of build up those chapters in your life and what does that look like and they said i got that from some good advice from someone recently and i just was like oh you know what i always think in five-year plans what the chapters is some of us kind of get a nice nuance to it that hopefully i can pass it on to the next generation too yeah i like i like that idea of chapters i think it's nice and i think it's um i think
00:35:35
Speaker
Kind of the advice that I understand you're giving managers who want to keep their folks around is like, you need
Advice for Young Creatives
00:35:42
Speaker
to be open. You need to be serving them. You need to be listening to what they want. Thinking creatively about anything you can do to keep them around in any capacity. And then if that's not going to work, like how do you help them? Not, not. Yeah. Right. I think that really resonates. So like, I know you don't have too much time left, but I'm curious.
00:36:01
Speaker
to like a young person right now who's coming into this kind of like unique moment, I think, in the creative world workforce. Like when I graduated in 09, I was like, I'm never ever going to be employed. You know, there's such a such a hunger for talented people. Like, what do you what advice would you give to someone who's like maybe a year or two into their first job in
00:36:31
Speaker
creative or marketing and they're trying to figure out what is for me, like what do I do? What would you suggest they think about or consider? I love this. I just actually did a talk on this about two weeks ago at BU. Oh yeah, yeah.
00:36:49
Speaker
And I've done a couple conversations with Suffolk where I'm on the marketing advisory board there as well. Great group over there. And I'll do this with almost any college that'll call me. And to be honest, because I believe in that next generation, I believe like it's on us as leaders to give that back and to get that next group fired up. And also to relieve the overwhelming and daunting nature of this world, right? Because if I had had what I was trying to give this BU group back in my day, like there's, it's just clarity, right?
00:37:18
Speaker
on what the paths could be and clarity about the opportunity to be and you know it's um so to answer your question i'd say the best thing i can say to that next group is to like understand the landscape of opportunities out there right like do your homework to say basic things like where do you want to live yeah you can work remotely but if there's a place where you wanted to go learn in person from someone and not that you shouldn't you should be able to do that flexibly for what your environment is but if you wanted to do that like where would you want to live to live your best life and whether that's
00:37:46
Speaker
Personally, or if you want to be near certain agencies or certain hubs or certain areas and then focus in on those areas, right? Like what are those agencies? What are those corporations? What are those market price? What are those brands? How do you assess those and part of my talk at BU is showing the fact that in-house agencies have a lot of look and feels similar to External agencies and so that value is to say look it doesn't matter where you start because there's now a much easier
00:38:12
Speaker
And I love that fluidity. The other side was that there's also so many more different types of marketing and advertising opportunities out there. There's ad tech companies, there's martech companies, there's production studios that are adding project management and strategy to their companies. There's the consultancies. There's the Deloitte's and the Accenture's out there that have marketing capabilities now physically part of their infrastructure.
00:38:38
Speaker
Really, it's about how do you assess those situations. The advice I give to all the folks there at BU were, one,
00:38:45
Speaker
It's a communications-based business. Make sure that you are actively networking, communicating, understanding what people are doing here in their story, 10 minutes here. You gotta stay on that. It's one of those things that's absolutely necessary. The second thing was, look at the values. Be transparent, be authentic. And I had a phrase there, which I wasn't sure if it was appropriate for the college, but it was like, W-Y-A-O, which is work your ass off. That's something for me that I think passes on generationally that should be there.
00:39:15
Speaker
No task is too small to learn from something to help something out, right? So it will lead to other opportunities as we show like a hyper level of effort because you're hungry for this business and people want that, right? They want to invest in people that will give to them as much as they're going to manage you in that case. So I said, be that. And then the last thing was like, be a sponsor.
00:39:36
Speaker
Be interesting. You could be totally wrong. Don't be worried about that. But if you use your analytical skills, your left brain, right brain to formulate points of view on marketing or creative or what a brand can do based on what you learn in college or your internships and try and at least piece some things together.
00:39:53
Speaker
The thought there is just, oh, this person's got some brain power, not are they right or wrong. So I think just starting out in that will then open up opportunities for internships that lead into assistant accounting, executive jobs or project manager, creative based roles. If you're a creative, I built your book, right? Like really hone in on that, like latch on to creative leaders that are out there and learn from them. And then the other side would just be, don't think that that first job is the end all deal.
00:40:22
Speaker
They're gonna have like 40 jobs before they retire or whatever the data is, right? But it's when I was there I
00:40:31
Speaker
depending on what my life looks like, there could be more. So I think that's the reality is that think about what you're getting in that value there and hone in on it. Work your butt off during those first two years at an agency, internal, external, and say, okay, what am I learning from this? I'm learning the process, I'm learning the leadership styles, I'm learning the brands, and then translate that into what's next for you and what other skill sets do you need to build that next five years of your life?
00:40:55
Speaker
Yeah, totally. No. And as you're talking to, it's reminding me of something I feel like we talked about a little while ago. The idea that like, almost no job is going to be perfect, but you need to make sure that there's something good to focus on that's going to get you to the next level. And like, you know, kind of, it's temporary, potentially, and like accept, it's not perfect, but make sure that you're learning and growing the way you want to.
Adapting to Evolving Marketing Trends
00:41:18
Speaker
Give that back to the folks that just hired you. They just invested in you. Show them your full capability. Show them that you'll put in the extra work. That'll have benefits for you. That'll have benefits for your own work ethic and also benefits for your value. Then if it's not the right environment, then you'll know. If you held on to your values in that good place and you've really done everything, it'll lead to other opportunities down the road rather than saying,
00:41:43
Speaker
I'm not sure if this is it for me and I might want to say we're learn enough about it And then apply that skill to the next thing that would be like, oh, you know what? I really want to be on the analytics side as opposed to all right Well, what did you learn it? How did you garner enough information to make that translation over? So I think there's a ton of opportunity out there and that's sort of my optimistic nature is to say look like it's an awesome business to be a part of you'll have way more interesting conversations and dynamics in your life both personally and professionally and There's it just keeps evolving and that's what I love about it the most
00:42:13
Speaker
like whether it's technology, the data, the operations, the creative, there's so many different avenues that you can get hungry about at different parts of your career. And right now I'm in that sort of operational nature of it all, but there's a time when I love the work more than anything else. And I do love it now too, but I also love like making sure that I can tee up that work right the best way possible.
00:42:32
Speaker
Yeah, you're in your operational chapter. Yeah. Very much so. All right. Well, I know you got a go clip, but thank you so much. I feel like this was a wall of wisdom. Like if people want to follow you, get in touch with you, ask you to speak at their school, like how do they, how do they reach out to you?
00:42:47
Speaker
LinkedIn. So I'm a huge LinkedIn guy. I'm not like a big, Instagram and Facebook are like personal more than they announced and Twitter. I'm not a big Twitter person, but LinkedIn, I'm all over it just because I love the, you know, the, the newsfeed, the inspiration, the connections. So shoot me a note. And I usually take a lot of calls, you know, as much as possible, help people with their own opportunities or if they want a perspective or if they just want to talk about the future state of marketing and advertising. I love those conversations too. So that's where
00:43:13
Speaker
You and I obviously connect a lot on this. What's the future state look like and how do we build some of those things?
00:43:19
Speaker
All right, everyone. We hope you enjoyed our chat with Cliff. We'll be coming to you next week with an interview with Lisa Marchiano. Lisa is a young man analyst who recently released a book called Motherhood, Facing and Finding Yourself, which is deep dive into the emotional and symbolic journey of motherhood through the lens of and drawing from her practice as a young man analyst. We promise it relates back to content people. It's really interesting and talks a lot about the unconscious mind and art types and keep your eyes peeled for that one.
00:43:49
Speaker
We will also plug some of Brapton's other content here. If you are not among the almost 100,000 marketers who subscribe to our newsletter, you are definitely missing out. And if you'd like, you should subscribe for more content and more information about content marketing. And we'll have a link in the show notes for you to subscribe. And that's it, folks. Thank you for listening. You can rate and review us on iTunes. And if you want to get in touch, shoot us an email at contentpeople at brapton.com.