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Episode Three: IVF and recurrent pregnancy loss with Lauren Gocher and Carla Anderson
1.1k Plays1 year ago
On today’s episode, Sam and Stacey chat with SNDYS The Label Co-Founder and Director Lauren Gocher, a generous longtime supporter of Pink Elephants who has courageously shared her story around recurrent pregnancy loss and IVF.
We also hear from Carla Anderson, a Clincal Psychologist from Centre of Perinatal Psychology. Carla is passionate about supporting women and their families in all areas related to the perinatal period such as infertility and IVF issues, pregnancy related concerns, antenatal/postnatal depression, grief and loss, and adoption. Connect with Carla on LinkedIn.
If you would like to speak to a fertility specialist, connect with our National Partner, Genea
EARLY PREGNANCY LOSS SUPPORT
If you or someone you know has experienced miscarriage or early pregnancy loss, please know you are not alone.
- For crisis support, please call Lifeline - 13 11 14.
- Access all our support
- Join Online Communities
- Emotional Support Resources
- Follow @pinkelephantssupport
STACEY JUNE LEWIS
If you’d like to reach out to Stacey for counselling she is currently taking new clients. Find out more via her Website or Instagram.
You can also follow her personal Instagram account where she shares some of her lived experience.
JOIN THE MISCARRIAGE REBELLION
Pink Elephants believe everyone deserves support following the loss of their baby.
We have been providing support to many ten's of thousands of people for nearly 8 years, raising funds through generous donors. We now need ongoing Government support to empower our circle of support.
We are calling on the Government to provide us with $1.6million over 4 years to help bridge the gap. Sign our petition.
Early pregnancy loss is not just a private grief, but a national issue that requires collective empathy, awareness, and action. By recognising and addressing this, we can make meaningful change in the lives of 100,000+ women who experience early pregnancy loss every year.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pregnancy Loss Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to the Miss Coach Rebellion. I'm Sam Payne, CEO and co-founder of the Pink Elephant Support Network.
00:00:10
Speaker
And I'm Stacey June Lewis, counsellor, psychotherapist and broadcaster. This podcast is where we share stories of many Australians who have lost their babies to early pregnancy loss. With evidence and empathy, we unpack the shame, blame and stigma and the lack of support that many face. This is a loss that has been silenced for too long. We deserve better. We are here to normalise the conversation. And we're here to make lasting change.
Lauren's Fertility Journey Begins
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome to today's episode with Lauren, who's the founder and co-owner of Sundazer Label. Lauren's been connected to Pink elephants for many years, has held fundraisers for us, has access to power and has created awareness into the topic of fertility challenges and pregnancy loss. She shares her story with generous hope.
00:00:56
Speaker
Hope is definitely the theme that comes to here, and I'm really excited that we get to listen to this story, not one just of heartache, but one where a woman has managed to move forward with much, much resilience. It's incredible privilege to bring you Lauren and her story today.
00:01:13
Speaker
We're really grateful that you're here today with us to be able to talk about this topic of lost pregnancy after loss and all that's needed to be changed within this. If you could start by telling the listeners a little about your experience of pregnancy loss, that would be great. Okay. So we started trying for a baby in
00:01:42
Speaker
When did we get married? 2015. We basically started trying the months that we got married. We tried for about a year. Then my husband moved to Queensland to do a jump that he got offered. Then he moved to Melbourne. We started looking at
00:02:05
Speaker
Basically, we went to an IVF clinic because we needed help to figure out when I was ovulating because obviously being in another state, I would fly there.
Challenges and Breaks in IVF Process
00:02:20
Speaker
They would tell me everything and then I'd go and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, after a long time in that, it still wasn't working and we went down the IVF path.
00:02:35
Speaker
Our first round was horrible. I got barely any results. Um, I was almost so anxious that half the procedures that they would normally do awake, they'd put me to sleep because I just couldn't relax. Um, I get it done, which was hard in itself because like, you know, it's like having a lot of the procedures is like having a pats me or you should just be able to do it. And I just couldn't.
00:03:05
Speaker
Anyway, that round didn't work and I had a little bit of a break. It was really consuming, so I then took the break and then I started IVF again and I moved to clinics and had all these recommendations, saw a different doctor. After I couldn't tell you how many more transfers, I finally felt pregnant.
00:03:29
Speaker
And I was ecstatic. Like obviously, you know, I'd been trying for so long and I'd gone through so much and I was finally there. So, but I just, I had luck. I just didn't have, I had a gut feeling something wasn't right. And not from any other reason, but I just, it just didn't feel like things were how it was supposed to be.
00:03:55
Speaker
Anyway, I got to my first scan. I remember in the morning I had my, like my hairdresser came and I got my, um, color done and she said, Oh my God, I'm so excited for you. Like you'll get to hear the heartbeat. And I was like, Oh, what happens if there's no heartbeat? But like, I'm like, I just can't get past not having this heartbeat. You know what I mean? Should be fine. Like, of course you're just protecting yourself and you know, you've been through hell and whatever.
00:04:24
Speaker
Anyway, I got into the scan and then she, I can't, you know what you can tell? Like I can't even tell, right? Something wasn't right. And she was like, oh, well, look, there's the heartbeat. And I felt this like instant, like, it's there, I made it. Like, you know, I've got to the next step. You know, it just feels like with IVF and fertility, it's just like getting to this next part, right?
00:04:53
Speaker
And then she's like, oh, there it is. Yeah, it's not beating enough. And I was like, like, like, like, just not it. Is it okay? Like, it's there. You know, she didn't give me a lot. And she was like, yeah, you can come back in three days. I mean, she wasn't nasty, but she wasn't like, no, she's like, come back in three days and we'll just see.
00:05:21
Speaker
if it's got any better. I remember just walking out and I was like, how am I going to get to three days? You can't make me wait three days. I can't even think.
Public Persona vs. Private Grief
00:05:32
Speaker
Anyway, I left that and I had a
00:05:35
Speaker
the launch of a second label that my business was doing. I had all these people at this event and I walked in. I was just like, yet again, you just pretend like I was just like, everything's fine. Thanks for coming.
00:05:55
Speaker
I just didn't even like, I was just nothing. You know, I wanted to be happy. And like on the outside, everyone's like, Oh my God, it's your second label. This is such a achievement. And you're just going, I don't even care. I do not even care. Anyway, I rang my IBF clinic and I told them what happened. And they're like, IBF clinics are a lot more blunt. She was like, yeah, you're going to miscarriage. It's not viable.
00:06:22
Speaker
They basically just want you to come back in so there can be a zero heartbeat, so they can see it's dropped off. I was trying to be positive. I was like, there's no hope. I shouldn't even hold on to the smallest little bit of hope that everything's going to be all right. She was like, yeah, no. It's under what it needs to be. It's done. Basically, ride the wave. Get yourself to the next scan.
00:06:52
Speaker
will go from there. I did, and I went to the next scan. Obviously, when it's IBF as well, very wanted. When you have the scan, I could tell this next lady didn't want to say to me,
00:07:12
Speaker
It's not there. So she was scanning and scanning and scanning, which felt like forever. Because I knew they could pick up the heartbeat last time pretty much straight away. After a while, I just said, you can say it. It's odd, isn't it? And she's like, just let me get it. Let me just get someone else in. And this other lady came in and then she was like, yeah, we can't find it. It's gone.
00:07:44
Speaker
And then that was it. I was just like, God, talk about like being on this biggest high to like, and you can't help but think you're like, okay, it's going to be born in this month. And we're going to, you know, your head just goes like, so just.
00:08:00
Speaker
everywhere, right? Especially for those that have been, as you say, trying for some time. Ruined, like, oh, it's going to be a summer baby, a winter baby, and you can do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like the highest of highs and then boom. And you just think like, I mean, I was like, I shouldn't have got excited. People told me this would happen. And then at the same time, you're
Mental Health Struggles and Seeking Support
00:08:28
Speaker
like,
00:08:29
Speaker
I have always believed, and I say this to people, when you're pregnant, you're pregnant and you celebrate that you got there. Then you just deal with it day by day and ride the wave of the whole thing.
00:08:44
Speaker
That was my first loss and that was, it just felt like it came and it went, which realistically, so I found out right on four weeks and I had my scan at seven. So like three weeks, I was like, and it's hard because people go, you know, at least it happened early and you go, you don't know where my head went for three weeks. Then my husband were just like,
00:09:10
Speaker
after spending thousands of dollars, the tears, my body, everything, those three weeks were amazing. They were like, this is happening. Are we getting the family? Your head just goes to everywhere. How am I going to tell everyone? You just get so excited. Then just like that, it's
00:09:35
Speaker
It's gone, you know? And then the IVF clinic was like, okay, do you want to do another round? Do you want to do another transfer? And I was like, well, well, I guess like, you know, I'm being that feeling again. You know, I want to, I want to be back where I was 20 minutes ago, you know? And it's almost that feeling of going again and again and again, rather than the acceptance and absolutely no, I want a baby back. I look back and I know that.
00:10:04
Speaker
they're a business and they're just like, what do you want to do? You know, where do you want to be? But I'm like, I don't know if it's the time to ask either. Like, okay, do you want to, do you want to be backing it straight? Like, anyway, whatever. I did it. And then I'm pretty sure that, that embryo that worked as my fourth transfer. And then I had a,
00:10:30
Speaker
I'm on my 13th now. My 10th was my first daughter. My 11th was my son. Then I've had a chemical pregnancy and now I'm pregnant with my son and brother. I guess the whole way through.
00:10:48
Speaker
The only thing that did help was I was quite vocal, so I didn't really shy away from what we were going through. I felt comfort in telling people because sometimes the reply would be, we're going through
00:11:07
Speaker
the same thing and then instantly like you can just talk right. I understand people don't always feel like that and don't feel like they can talk but I was very proactive. I remember going to my GP and saying like I need to go on a mental health plan, I need to go see a psychiatrist, I'm not okay.
00:11:30
Speaker
Like I don't know how to live my life and live this infertility life because it is so consuming and I just, I can't get out of it. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm just not a happy person anymore. Like it's, it's just not working. We're like, I need to do something. And I remember I went and saw this lady. So there was two people, one, the IVF clinic recommended.
00:11:57
Speaker
and one that I went through the GP and just found a local psychiatrist that I could talk to. The IVF Clinic lady said to me, I just want you to go into every round and think this is it. This is the round. And I said,
00:12:20
Speaker
It's been more years. At that time, I don't know what I was up to, let's say six or seven times. I was like, how do you do that? How do you keep going? You just have to go into every round and think, this is it. I was like, maybe I'm really negative.
00:12:44
Speaker
maybe at my first or second round, but like I'm four or four years into this. Like I just, I don't know how to, I don't know how to be that positive anymore, you know? And I never saw her again because I was like, just didn't like, and I, I believe that like, I believe in that type of therapy, but I also believe you need to click, right? You need to have someone that like gets it.
00:13:11
Speaker
Anyway, my GP recommended this lady. You'll love this. She said to me, if you've had all the checks, at this stage, nothing was coming up wrong with me. I was ticking, everything's fine. She goes, if you've had nothing wrong, have you ever thought you're just not ready for it? It's your body's way of telling you.
00:13:38
Speaker
No. I'll breathe out at that point, right? With anger. I'm like, Beth, try my tongue. You think I've spent $60,000 plus and deep down it's my body just going, you're not ready. I never saw her again either. It was at that point where I was like, I am proactive. I am trying.
00:14:06
Speaker
wanting help, you know, it's not like I'm, I'm shying away from the reality of my life. Like I'm trying to coexist with, with everything. And it wasn't until I did meet one other lady that someone recommended to me and she had gone through IVF. And that's when I was like, I spoke to her, I saw her one time, one time only. And I felt like in that hour,
00:14:32
Speaker
I walked out and I felt so validated. I felt everything that I was feeling was fine and normal and she gave me tips on how to deal with it. I just walked out thinking like,
00:14:52
Speaker
if only I saw you, you're like, yeah. And again, that was just from talking to someone saying, you know, I'm trying to get help, but I'm not getting in there. Um, yeah, it was, it took forever just to get someone to help, help me. And because I
Impact on Marriage and Identity
00:15:12
Speaker
didn't have like a lot of my friends, well, most of my friends have never gone through anything like this. So it's hard. You want someone, you know, that,
00:15:21
Speaker
can understand what you're going through and they can tell you, like I listened to a podcast the other day and everything she was saying, I was like, oh, been there, been like, you just, you, you get it, right? Like you get what they say. So anyway, it took a long time to get help and to, you know, understand like the repercussions too of what it had caused because like even with my husband,
00:15:48
Speaker
I used to say to him all the time, I'm like, what's changed for you? You're not stabbing yourself with injections. You're not like you just go into a room. And I know it's nasty, but the resentment I felt towards him because I was like, you know, every month I treat my body like I'm pregnant. I don't drink. I don't go to this party. I don't care.
00:16:11
Speaker
you know, ride the bike or like, I don't take any risks because I'm always like, might be pregnant, might be, and nothing changes for you. And that lady was the first lady that changed my opinion on him, got me out of the resentment that I felt towards him. It was really big. By the end of it, I was just like, my whole world's changed in these five years.
00:16:34
Speaker
My body's changed. My mind's changed. I can't think straight. I've gone from being so switched on to having to write things down because I'm just so scattered that I can't remember things. I used to look at him and think, what have you done? You don't do anything. I feel bad saying that now looking bad, but at the time,
00:17:01
Speaker
It was just my life and the reality of my life. I remember saying to my best friend, I was to die tomorrow. I'd feel so unfulfilled with my life, like how I've lived because it's been so consuming now for so long that I can't see happiness. I can't see how it feels. I don't think you
00:17:29
Speaker
I don't think you forget that. Even now that I've got two children and one on the way, it's still very real. I still remember just waking up going, how do you just keep going with this? You know what I mean? There's still no answer. At this stage, I didn't have an answer. It just felt relentless. Before I had my daughter, it was five very long
00:17:57
Speaker
Yes. I'm just being very, very tired and very exhausted and just no answers. And the no answers for me is what...
00:18:09
Speaker
It kills you the most because even in my job, I'm the problem solver. I'm the one that's like, okay, what can we do? Let's do this. Let's get in, let's fix it. I've just constantly been getting roadblock and not knowing how to fix things. It's hard. My personality, it was really, really difficult just to be able to keep going without any idea of, is there something wrong? Do I need a new doctor? Do I need to talk to someone else?
00:18:37
Speaker
It was just really difficult. Anyway, I've spoken a lot, but it was a very long answer. It's a very big story. That's why it takes a long time to talk about it because it's a long story, but I'm so sorry.
00:18:52
Speaker
Particularly, I feel very called to apologize for those experiences with those mental health practitioners too because, as you say, when you feel like you're really putting yourself out there and being proactive and to be met with, you know, what it sounds like extra isolation on top of the isolation that you potentially were already feeling.
00:19:12
Speaker
and just incredibly sorry and just want to acknowledge how long and big all of that is. I want to talk a little bit about what happens when we are now living this life for years and years on end and how you felt that that started to infiltrate into other parts of your life just from the sheer fact that it was almost like your full-time job or almost like your chosen other career.
00:19:44
Speaker
I think the hardest part, and I look back at it now, and I think what comes with being very open about it.
00:19:54
Speaker
is my opinions of other people and be like, you know, even like my girlfriends, sometimes I think, God, there would have been so many times where you've had your babies and you wouldn't have even wanted to like, wanted to talk to me about things because, you know, it would have been too hurtful or, um,
00:20:18
Speaker
you would have thought it would impact me, like how many things I probably missed because you didn't want to share those milestones with me. That hurts me to think that my best friends and my business partner have had babies that you probably just didn't share stuff with. It's hard because you try to find the balance of being open because I believe
00:20:48
Speaker
I truly believe that this will be fixed if people talk about it because it will get rid of the silence and it won't be this, like, I'm going through this alone, it will just become very common. Because it is common, yeah? Yes. But at the same time, I hated people feeling sorry for me. Like, I hate when people would see me and look at me and go, how are you? How's things going?
00:21:13
Speaker
I don't want you to feel sorry for me. I haven't told you so you can sit there and pat my back every time you see me. I'm open about it. I don't actually know what I want, but I don't want sorrow. I don't want you to look at me and feel sympathy. I just want you to... And I'm like that now. When I know someone's going through it, I'm like, where are you going? Where are you up to? Do you need a chat? Happy to leave it. I'm very just much like, no, I'm here.
00:21:43
Speaker
I leave it at that, you know what I mean? It's hard because I'm sure my relationships were affected with people because they just didn't straight out want to make me feel sad. In my fertility years, my best friend had three babies. Three times she probably didn't.
00:22:11
Speaker
want to talk that much about it. Like she's not going to sit there and be like, Oh my God, such and such has walked while I'm injecting myself trying to get eggs. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and I think as well, another hard part that comes from it is, which I didn't ever think would be a thing is silence. People avoid you. They avoid asking how you are or they avoid, they just avoid you. And I think,
00:22:42
Speaker
I'm not like that. If something's happened to someone, I'm very much acknowledging what they're going through. If I wasn't 100% like that before, I'm 100% like that now because I felt how it felt for people to distance from me because they just flat out just didn't know what to say. A part of me gets that.
00:23:05
Speaker
because it's not easy, but a part of me is like, life isn't easy. I still remember when we first were pregnant, my husband saying to me, very naive, just a blow, yeah? And he said to me, oh my God, we're going to tell him that. And I was like, oh, we have to wait for 12 weeks. And he was like, oh, why? And I was like, this is in case of a miscarriage. And he goes, but what do we want?
00:23:35
Speaker
Like, people around if you miscarry, like, why would we want to go through it silently? And I'm not saying shout it out to the universe and social media or whatever, but to not tell your best friends or your close family or whatever your support system is in pure fear. Like, if you miscarry your, like, it's like, I don't
00:24:02
Speaker
I don't know, people get ashamed or whether it's like, for me it wasn't an ashamed feeling. I think because I've had people go through these characters around me, and I remember saying to them when they'd say, I feel like a failure or whatever, I remember saying,
Importance of Support Systems
00:24:19
Speaker
whoosh, it just wasn't meant to be, or the embryo was this. I then never felt
00:24:29
Speaker
After all, saying that to everyone that I was going to turn around to myself and say, this is my fault. Do you know what I mean?
00:24:39
Speaker
I understand the stigma and I get the taboo thing. Well, I don't get it because I don't understand why you wouldn't want support. Because to me, support is everything. Not just with futility, with everything in life. You have a bad day, you've been two friends. You fall over, you want to cuddle. Everything is about having a support system around you. It's what makes everything easier. For me, in my head,
00:25:06
Speaker
The only way, like with this pregnancy, it was IVF again, and I found out at four weeks, and at four weeks I was like, I'm pregnant. Because I had a chemical pregnancy the month before, and I had so many messages and so much support. And when this was happy, I was like, well, I'm not going to give you the shit and not give you
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah. Good. You know what I mean? It was beautiful. To be honest, if I miscarried, obviously, it would be horrible, but I felt so supported. I felt like I had these people around me everywhere that I could turn to anyone and just speak to a random person because I just had talked about it. I feel sorry for the people. When I look back at what I was saying about people that had gone for help,
00:26:06
Speaker
So there would have been a lot of people that would have gone the first time, got that answer that they got and just gone, never doing that again, that was horrible. I could only imagine, I'm lucky enough that I kept pushing. But I know not everyone has that personality to keep trying. They would have been so nervous to reach out and then reached out, got that answer and just been like,
00:26:35
Speaker
Imagine saying to someone, maybe you're just not ready. How do you come back from that? Do you know what I mean? You can't. I think that's also where that intersection of peer support is so important and coming back to that lived experience again.
00:26:51
Speaker
it took someone who'd been there to challenge what mental health professionals had said so awfully, so wrongly, and so dismissively of your experience. It actually took someone with lived experience to offer just what we know as empathy, right? And to say a completely different version of it and offer you that hope forward and give you some real ways that you move forward in things that maybe she'd done as well in her journey. That's what we see definitely all the time in our online communities, all of that.
00:27:19
Speaker
Unfortunately too, when you do speak to someone that hasn't gone through it, 99% of the time your advice is go on a holiday, just relax, bring too much pressure on yourself. So to have someone be like, oh my God, I'm being through IVF, I understand how, like, what did you do this? What did you do that? Like, you're just like, oh.
00:27:41
Speaker
You haven't taught me to relax. It's great, you know? So, yeah, I understand the importance. I think it's a really interesting conversation when people of any type of topic, even health professionals, start to feel almost inadequate or unsure of how to move, then the things that come out of people's mouths are often the last thing they may have done in a scenario where they're more prepared or feel like they're a little bit more in their
00:28:11
Speaker
comfort zone. I actually remember a fertility nurse saying to me when it was on holidays, she said, you never know, you'll go off on a holiday and you never know your luck. And my husband has prostate cancer. His sperm is literally in a freezer. So the medical file is sitting in her hands. She has full capacity to knowing that that is actually medically not possible.
00:28:41
Speaker
yet and that's her specialty. It just came out because it's Christmas and she's thinking of her holiday and she's just trying to keep the Christmas her own Christmas cheer. So I think it really is an interesting conversation around showcasing what discomfort does to people and how much people really
00:29:08
Speaker
say or blurt out the first thing that kind of comes out of their mouths, even when they have been trained as a counselor, as a nurse, a better friend for someone else. It is a really, and it's not excusing, but it is a really interesting situation that then people like yourself, people like us that have all been through it, then have to experience that time
00:29:32
Speaker
and time and time again. And I wanted to ask you a little further about that, Lauren, as well, with the length of your experience. I have listened to a couple of podcasts and different things that you'd spoken about around your story.
00:29:50
Speaker
And I really wanted to bring up that idea of the testing freak and the kind of this particular personality that can often become of a woman or a person.
00:30:05
Speaker
predominantly my experience from what I've seen and what I am, a woman that is a test freak or goes really hectic into tracking or starts to figure out due dates like the second there is and then it might be a chemical. Then you're speaking to friends who, as what I heard on one of the conversations, might not have even been aware of what a chemical pregnancy is because there's a period that happens and it's just not the language or the experience.
00:30:34
Speaker
I wanted to know, yeah, how you went identifying with that person or how maybe even that part of your life became your personality and how you manage that in terms of your own identity. Because I know even just as a societal issue, you know, the loud one, the bossy one, that there's so much stuff that women have to already deal with when you're a certain type of personality type. And then in the fertility world, there's a certain type of personality type too. I was interested to
00:31:04
Speaker
to hear your take on that because yeah, I think it'd be really relatable for a lot of people that are in it in the long haul. So I started, obviously when you start your fertility journey, I hate the word journey, but journey, you, I had no idea. Like I didn't know anything about IVF.
00:31:28
Speaker
haven't met anyone that had done every earth. I didn't know anything. So basically what the doctor said to me was gospel and I didn't doubt anything. I didn't question anything. I was basically waiting for phone calls and what they said went because who was I? I'm not a doctor. So pre, you know, this Lauren and Lauren
00:31:55
Speaker
six years ago or however many years ago it was. Eight years ago. Very different, right? So I remember so many things that I look back at now and just think, oh my God, how did I not question this? Or how did I not know this? And when I spoke on my Best Friends podcast, you're talking to a girl that's
00:32:25
Speaker
confident because she has come out the other side and she has gone through 13 rounds of IVF. I know what I'm talking about. I know what to question. I know when to question it. It's hard because
00:32:45
Speaker
The main reason I did the podcast with her was because I know I wanted to start, I just, I'm like, yeah, I just want to start the conversation. I want to normalize it, right? I want to normalize that I test 15,000 times a day and that I wait for phone calls and I'm like, I know what I'm talking about, but I wasn't that person back then, you know? So back then anyone could say anything to me. I'm like, okay, like with my last, um,
00:33:14
Speaker
IVF round that was just before this one that didn't work. I knew it was a chemical pregnancy, right? I know now. I knew that I'd seen the surge and then I'd seen it drop off. When I spoke to my IVF clinic, she realized she was just like, you're not pregnant. That was all she gave me. Then I remember thinking, I saw what I saw. I know what to look for.
00:33:42
Speaker
Then I remember with this pregnancy, I couldn't move past it. I remember seeing my OB and telling him, he's like, how many rounds you have to do, blah, blah. I was like, oh, I did this, but my H2D was this. He's like, oh, you have a chemical. I was like, yes. Yes. Thank you for validating that this just wasn't like. I get the thing with chemicals because I remember when I had an ectopic pregnancy,
00:34:12
Speaker
I saw my GP, a random GP, because I needed someone to talk to, so I just looked to see a GP, right? He was like, you're pregnant. Your HCGs, whatever it was, she's like, you're pregnant. I was like, but my IVF clinic's saying that I'm not. She's like, oh, you're 100% pregnant. I go, okay. Then my IVF clinic was like,
00:34:39
Speaker
Yeah, but your progesterone is so low, you're going to miscarry, right? What I understand and what I was trying to say in that thing is, I understand why people don't get it because no one talks about chemical pregnancies. A GP is telling me he's convinced I'm pregnant and my IVF clinic's like,
00:35:05
Speaker
He wouldn't even have looked at my progesterone GP. I think if you don't even know, how is my friends going to know? How are my friends going to even understand what I'm going through if you can't? The thing with the chemical, obviously, again, because it is so early, it's like, well, you're pregnant for a minute. You're like, again, I saw those two lines. I saw it happen. Then the next morning,
00:35:36
Speaker
they were gone. I honestly think that from all of this, I started suffering from
00:35:47
Speaker
Am I, is my mind playing tricks on me? Because that was definitely there. And it's not until like you send the test results to your IVF friends or your fertility friend, infertility friends, they're like, yep, a hundred percent. Yep. Seeing it. And you're on the same page. Yeah. So they, they really understand what you're going through, but your average person wouldn't even look, probably wouldn't even look at a chemical pregnancy as
00:36:15
Speaker
I'm always like, it happened, but it stopped. They're like, is that a pregnancy? It's just like the ectopic thing. So are you pregnant or you're not? Well, yeah. This is not where it's supposed to be. Do you know what I mean? It's the way that we minimize experiences based on gestation. It's a way that we minimize even a failed embryo transfer. We don't validate it as a loss.
00:36:40
Speaker
There are so many hopes and dreams that go into that point. And it's not about almost the amount of time, right? It's about what's going into that. And we've got a psychologist that speaks really beautifully about this gestation in mind. And that can start with couples who even when they decide to try and be parents before they've even tried to conceive.
00:37:06
Speaker
People don't talk about it, but it's happening behind closed doors, hidden behind smiling faces. There are so many people suffering in silence right now, unable to access the support that they need and deserve, simply because they don't even know that there is support available.
00:37:30
Speaker
The pink elephants community is made up of people from all over Australia. Some come from the big smoke, others from the bush. Some of us have heaps of friends and family around, others have none.
00:37:46
Speaker
Some have lost babies at five weeks. Some had ectopic pregnancies. Some had multiple ultrasounds. Others only ever saw the two red lines on a positive pregnancy test.
00:38:02
Speaker
but we all have something in common. We have all lost a baby. We are all bereaved parents.
Call to Action: Supporting Bereaved Parents
00:38:11
Speaker
There are estimated to be over 100,000 of us across Australia every single year. Please help us connect with these people to give them the support that they deserve. No one should have to lose a baby and be left on their own to navigate their grief.
00:38:32
Speaker
Help Pink Elephant support more brave parents. Visit pinkelephants.org.au
00:38:44
Speaker
Today we welcome on Carla Anderson, who's a psychologist and a mother to three teenage daughters and three stepchildren. She's an experienced psychologist with many years of training and specialties under her belt, but she has a passion for supporting women during the perinatal period through struggles such as infertility, IVF issues, pregnancy-related concerns, antenatal depression, grief and loss, and adoption.
00:39:08
Speaker
as well as supporting families with a transition to parenthood and the day-to-day juggling of family life. She's the perfect fit for this episode. Welcome, Carla.
00:39:18
Speaker
It's one of those theoretical approaches that it just helps explain, I guess when we're thinking about no matter how many weeks gestation somebody is, why their grief is still valid. And that has to do with how the parent has gestated their baby in mind. So when we think about gestation of pregnancy, we usually think about physical gestation. So, you know,
00:39:43
Speaker
What are the physical changes or the physical growth that's happened in that way? But we also know that we have psychological gestation or gestation in mind where parents start to imagine their baby. They start to imagine themselves as parents. They start to imagine what life is going to look like after baby comes along and all the changes that are going to come from that. And so when we think about that grief that is experienced in the perinatal period,
00:40:11
Speaker
All of that weighs in on there. And so if somebody is very early in their pregnancy, they may have already done a lot of gestating in mind. And so a lot of grief comes from that. Pink Elephant Support is available no matter where you are on your journey. Whether you lost your baby recently or many years ago, we are here for you.
00:40:40
Speaker
We know pregnancy after loss can be a particularly challenging period. That's why we have a dedicated online community for you to connect with other women who are going through a pregnancy after loss. To connect with us, visit pinkelephants.org.au. Now let's get back to today's episode and hear more from Lauren.
00:41:07
Speaker
We all do it differently and that can then obviously the way that we have that loss impact us can be part of that as well in that experience. You've shared so beautifully about the fertility, the ups and downs, the challenges there. I just want to, if you're open to it, hear a little bit more about how you manage pregnancy after loss because we know from personal experience and the thousands that we support and I know from my own experience how challenging that can be.
00:41:38
Speaker
If you're open to speaking about that now, totally okay if you're not as well. I think, um, I don't think you get over it. Like I honestly don't think, like sometimes like in my daughter will walk in my room and she's like, mommy. And I'm like.
00:41:59
Speaker
you're there. Like you're a few men, you just called me mummy. And she's almost three. And I still say to my husband, I can't believe she's real. Like her more so than my son because she obviously felt she was the first to come after so many years. But like I look at her and I just, I can't even, I can't even fathom that she's like alive, you know? And
00:42:31
Speaker
I genuinely just stare it up because I can't believe it. I can't believe after so long that we got there. It doesn't feel real to me. I think when you hear someone going through it, it just comes back. I just want to take pain away because I know that pain. I just want to wrap you up and just be like, and I don't want to say to people,
00:43:00
Speaker
keep trying, but I want to say it to them because I got there. I remember someone saying to me once, if you want it bad enough, you'll keep going. I was like, how long do you go for? How long do I have to keep feeling like this where I'm just going and going and going and going and not getting anywhere? Almost when my daughter came out,
00:43:28
Speaker
It was like, it was just the most surreal experience. I was convinced she was a boy. I never found out what I was having. And this midwife said to me, like, they were getting my sister in and they were getting me already. And she's like, oh, I saw that this is an IVF pregnancy. Congratulations. Like, if you don't mind me asking, how long, blah, blah, and I went through it with her.
00:43:54
Speaker
And then she goes, Oh, I, um, I just missed Carrie last week. So this really gives me hope. Right. And like, I was just about to have a baby, but I just looked at her and thought, how are you doing this job? You know, like, how are you here delivering my baby when you're just gone?
00:44:21
Speaker
Anyway, she's like, thank you. She's like, thank you for talking to me. I feel like I can keep going and whatever. She's like, do you know what you're having? I was like, no. She has a few names. I'm like, yeah. Anyway, I was lying there and they brought the baby out and whoever said it's a girl was like, it's a girl. She's like, what are you calling it? I was like,
00:44:47
Speaker
Hope. I'm calling her Hope. And she's like, she is blessed. She is. I'm blessed. She is. Oh my God. I was supposed to meet you and you were supposed to meet my daughter. Like you were supposed to be here and this was not a coincidence. And
00:45:10
Speaker
Like I'm so grateful she told me that so she could ask me so I could tell her and she could have a moment that maybe, just maybe she got a bit of hope from it. I don't know. And my way, I don't think, I don't think you ever get over it, but I think you go down different paths. Some people just like, I was talking to someone and she just almost blocks it. Like it's like it didn't even,
00:45:39
Speaker
happen. My thing is education, because when I get a message saying, from a random person on Instagram, and she tells me she's struggling, then she comes back to me six months later, and she says, hey, I'm pregnant, that's me now. My way of dealing with it now is I say to anyone, I'm here, I know you don't know me,
00:46:07
Speaker
but I needed that support. If you don't feel comfortable going to your friends, at least let me be that person. My way of dealing with it is helping other people because I feel like maybe I went through it. I've said it before, maybe I went through it for a reason. Maybe this was something
00:46:35
Speaker
I had to go through and I find peace in knowing that I can help people by talking and just saying my daughter's name sometimes. I'll say to people, whenever you doubt, just think of my daughter because she was so wanted and she took so many years.
00:46:58
Speaker
And I look at her and just think, God, you're so worth it. And I'm so glad I made to that because anyone that ever is suffering from it and sees her, it's like a reminder that I don't want to say that you'll get there because I know people don't get there. But you need to have hope because if you don't have hope, you've got nothing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
00:47:24
Speaker
I don't even know if that's the right thing to do. For me, it's just being there for other people now. I've had my turn. I've had my kids. I've had the help. I just want other people to not feel alone because I remember laying in bed every night and I remember how it felt waking up every morning. I remember how it felt going to baby showers.
00:47:47
Speaker
Going first birthdays and like pregnancy announcements, I remember it so, so well. It does not lead you. So if I can do anything to be that person that someone was to me, then that's what I want.
00:48:02
Speaker
I love that. I love the full circle of that. I just think it shows so much beauty in yourself as well as a person. And I thank you for that because I know how much that helps people. I'm going to shift gears a little bit. That touched me so much. I am going to shift gears just because of time and mindful. So the miscarriage rebellion, it is an intentional podcast. We are telling these stories because it does foster a sense of connection.
00:48:31
Speaker
It will hopefully invoke empathy and I know that your story will. But we also want to drive change because for too long, women and their partners are being met with all this disenfranchised grief, with this isolation, with the shame, the stigma, the silence. It's not changing quick enough.
00:48:49
Speaker
So we're asking everyone who comes on the pod to share, if they could have one thing that you could change, one thing that you could make better for anyone going through losses today, what would that be? I just wish it was acknowledged. I wish it was acknowledged more. I wish that there were better systems in place for people that
00:49:20
Speaker
had going through it. I remember when I had these two things. I remember having a DNC and being wheeled back to the maternity ward and just listening to Baby's Christ. Actually, there's three.
Criticism of Medical Insensitivity
00:49:41
Speaker
I remember having my tubes removed and I was on the maternity ward.
00:49:49
Speaker
And I remember, um, what was the other one? I just lost my trainer for it. Yeah. Basically the same thing. I just kept getting, Oh, I had, I did my, um, IVF round and I got like a stimulated. I couldn't walk. I got carried in an ambulance. I was on morphine. I was everything. And they said, Oh, we're going to meet you upstairs to the maternity ward. And I was like, Oh,
00:50:21
Speaker
I don't feel like I'm a precious person. When my tubes got removed, that was in January and I couldn't sleep. I felt bad because I'm so upset, but I've got two kids. It's not like I don't, but I didn't feel finished. Although in my head, I always thought I'd do IVF. There's not one part of me that's ever thought I'll have babies naturally.
00:50:51
Speaker
But when they took my last two away, it felt very final. It's like now you have to, there's no accidents. Like you're doing IBF and you have to have a baby through IBF, you know? And I was like two o'clock in the morning and I was sitting in the room trying to get to sleep and I could just hear screaming newborns. And I was like, how?
00:51:21
Speaker
with this insensity to put women, and I haven't lost a baby full term or whatever, and I pray to God that they don't put those women in those rooms, but the fact that there is nothing in place and that you get sent to that ward
00:51:42
Speaker
Lows my mind. The fact that you have to sit there and listen to other screaming babies, not taking away anything from, they're not doing anything wrong, but the last thing you want to hear is what isn't for you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And not by choice. Yeah. And the fact that there's nothing in place for that is just mind-blowing that we're so
00:52:08
Speaker
I felt like a part of me wanted to say something. Part of me was grateful that I was in a hospital and I was okay and I was getting looked after. Nurses are amazing. It's not like it's their fault. What a part of me wanted to go, are you kidding? Yeah. Are you kidding that you've got nothing for these parents and just going through all this stuff? How did you not have a system in place for this?
00:52:34
Speaker
There needs to be... We need to do better, right? There needs to be a system in place for these mums. I remember when I had my DNC, it was at St. George Hospital. Because I had private healthcare, they gave me a broom. They came up to me and said,
00:52:53
Speaker
Oh, do you mind if we point you in with other people? Because there's a lady that's just lost her baby, like a stillbirth, and we'd love to give her this room. And I was like, why is she coming back? This poor lady's coming back to this noise, this like hearing not her baby scream.
00:53:18
Speaker
For me, that is something that we need to sort out and we need to do better because it's completely unfair and unrealistic to think that bat mentally
00:53:30
Speaker
It's okay. And it's not. We know it's not. We know that that is something that exacerbates the trauma. And we know it can be changed. And I think it speaks so much to the silence and the pervasive acceptance that miscarriage is something that just happens and we just get over it. So we can put up with these little, in inverted comments, because I'm on podcasts, but
00:53:53
Speaker
little things that are not meant to impact us. They're oversighted. They're a mission. No one's thinking about the whole system from the perspective of a bereaved parent. And ultimately, that's what we are. And someone needs to walk through every step of the whole system from the moment you have diagnosis from an ultrasound, right through to your GP referral, right through to your ops and guidance through a private system or through public system. Someone needs to go through each and every part of it.
00:54:18
Speaker
from the perspective of a brief parent and not from what works for the health system. Because change needs to come based on our experience and what we're telling health professionals what we need so that we don't end up with poor mental health outcomes. And like we see up in Gelfins, women with suicidal thoughts, women with severe PTSD, because the trauma, the impact of these things is huge and just completely underlocked and under supported in any way.
00:54:47
Speaker
I think the thing that gets me probably the most with this industry, I remember everything a doctor says to me, right? Because I'm holding on to absolutely every single word that you say to me. If you say something and then a week later you say something different, which happened to me many, many times with doctors,
00:55:13
Speaker
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. There's not even a chance I got this wrong because I am holding onto every single word that you're saying to me. I think to myself the amount of times the wrong thing was said and I sat there and took it or even one of my IVF
00:55:41
Speaker
doctors, companies, sorry. After I miscarried, I was like, I'm done, I need a break. I got an email the next day saying, oh, we're having a 50% off sale. Oh, oh, oh, oh, we're going to come in in more crass if they tried. And I was like, what? They don't have sales. I don't think you can put a sale on this. And this is so,
00:56:10
Speaker
insensitive and I guess the hardest thing is to go back to your question about. I grew up thinking doctors were like, doctors, policemen, five and they're all these real and obviously there are. I'm not taking it away that they are. There's some that are great. But I remember getting that e-mail just thinking, and I did it because I was like, it's 50 percent off.
00:56:38
Speaker
I've already spent however many thousands of dollars. I can't pass up this opportunity. I look back at it now and think, holy shit, you put a sale on a baby. You put a sale on that and you played on people like me who were so done just for your wallet.
00:57:03
Speaker
And I think of that story all the time. It still blows my mind that that can even happen. I'm not sure it can. There is nothing that's okay about that. But I think it speaks to the fact that, again, the technology of fertility
00:57:21
Speaker
has, and technology is the wrong word, but the industry has grown so quickly, so rapidly because there is a need, because one in six couples struggle to conceive. What's not caught up in time, which is government responsibility, if you ask me, is the regularity of bodies around this. The ethical and the moral standards that should be in place to protect
00:57:42
Speaker
vulnerable members of the community and again that comes back to a pervasive acceptance that some women will just have to go through IVF and magically they will just have a baby and it's an easy thing and you just do it and then you'll have this baby and that's not the truth we know that but I think there's an acceptance that almost like a false sense that that is the truth so therefore those things get left off and I think it's complex it's not one thing but that there's nothing about that that A should be allowed that B is okay it
00:58:12
Speaker
Yeah, Beggar's belief is awful. Why? I just hope, I hope moving forward that there are people that are starting. I know starting IVF especially is so overwhelming. I hope that moving forward, there are better systems in place for families starting because again, if you have, I don't know what the word is, a couple that aren't as
00:58:42
Speaker
I don't know. I don't want to insult anyone, but not as like talk to them or don't have the... That dominance. Yeah. Like don't have the ability to question. That's what scares me with it. And I just hope that at some point it gets to a point where it's not as, you don't have to be as onto it because you trust what's
00:59:05
Speaker
Yeah, that the healthcare system is advocating for women, that the healthcare system represents women, that the healthcare system is a healthcare system for women. And when you are sharing all of those stories, we've heard so many on the podcast, and I just wanted to even circle back when we were speaking about the ward that you were in and those situations, whether you choose that or you don't choose that, but even if you do,
00:59:33
Speaker
every woman deserves to have healthcare that is tailored to their experience and not lumped into somebody else's. It's not always perfect, it's a healthcare public healthcare system. But there are some very minimal things that you have pointed out that could change that as Sam pointed out could really act as preventative care for a very different mental health journey.
01:00:01
Speaker
in post those experiences. So thank you so much for sharing those things. You're welcome. Wow. Lauren's story, while a lot of it is really hard to hear because she has been through a huge amount, there is also an element that I think is really beautiful, and that is this element of hope. I know that if you're in the depths,
01:00:26
Speaker
of yet another loss or another failed round of IVF, this might not be the best episode for you. But I feel like there is also a need sometimes to pull that element of hope out into our community and we see it, it's not an easy thing to navigate. But I think that we do need to discuss it because I feel like the way that Lauren chatted about the nurse and that experience of hope.
01:00:51
Speaker
and the difference that she could make in that woman and how that also felt beautiful at both ends, giving and receiving that message. And I just feel like, yeah, let's chat more about that. Yeah, I feel that it is. It's something that you and I behind the scenes have discussed at great length personally and professionally, obviously both working in the space, but also having our own lived experience. We all have a very interesting relationship with Hope.
01:01:16
Speaker
Because it is often given to you from the person that may not have walked the path that you've walked, which is why it can be a bit eye-rolly, it can be a little bit affirmation-y, a little bit manifestation. However, those things do offer an element of magic in a time where we don't know the outcomes, we don't have much else.
01:01:38
Speaker
So I think where I come from, from in my practice and in my room,
Role of Hope in Fertility Journeys
01:01:43
Speaker
I really do try and gauge where somebody is at with hope and really acknowledge and honor where they are with hope in that time, that the relationship is ever evolving. And if we don't stifle ourselves to find it and we don't force it upon ourselves,
01:01:59
Speaker
I kind of see it as this beautiful flower that you know, that plant that you have at home that you water and then you think, Oh God, it's gone, it's gone. And then in three weeks later, all of a sudden, push, there's this little flower that's come out of nowhere. And it was a trust. It was a constant watering, but it wasn't this, you know, this intense, let's just put it out and soak it down. It was just consistent and trusting and acknowledging that that flower may not always be there too.
01:02:29
Speaker
So I think the greatest option for us to be able to experience true hope is to also accept that it's okay when it goes. Because we can find it again, and we don't want to find it by stifling ourselves to find it, by forcing ourselves, but also by forcing others to find it. So I think finding that relationship with it, getting to know how you are with it, honoring where you are with it,
01:02:57
Speaker
that it will look different is a really, really important piece to how we can use it effectively. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's also that juxtaposition between lightness and darkness, that you almost need to have experienced some darkness to feel the true lightness in a way as well. That's difficult to hear and complex to unpack, so we're not going to go there, but it's that element again with hope that it can offer
01:03:23
Speaker
some lightness when you're in the depths of darkness and things are so difficult, but it also isn't there all of the time. We need to acknowledge that and we need to be present for those who are going through this and are in the darkness and be willing to sit with them in that space and not trying to fix it. But if you are someone that's there and you see an element of hope, then hang on to that because it can make the difference of a day for you or an hour if you're still in those hour by hour stages.
01:03:49
Speaker
Just thought that was incredibly beautiful throughout Lauren's story, how much she gives of herself to still help others, which in that time as well, I think it's really beautiful. Again, I think it speaks to reaching out to those of us with lived experience, the power of peer support, the power of therapists with lived experience as well, because we understand that it's not needed to have that toxic side.
01:04:12
Speaker
positive psychology, you go, here's a rainbow. You're going to have a rainbow baby. We know that that's not appropriate at certain times. We can judge that because we've kind of been where you are in a different experience, but similar. And I guess that's kind of that power of lived experience that sits in that space as well.
01:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, I love this episode. Yeah, me too. Again, as always, we're here for you. You are not alone. If you're looking to access support, head to pinkelephants.org.au and everything is linked in the show notes. Thanks again for taking the time to listen.
01:04:46
Speaker
Today's episode may have brought up some feelings for you that you need some support around. That's totally okay. Head to pinkelephants.org.au to find access to our circle of support, your safe space where you can be met with empathy and understanding throughout all of your experiences of early pregnancy loss. We're here for you. You are not alone.
01:05:07
Speaker
If you enjoyed listening to The Miscarriage Rebellion, please help us by leaving a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. The Miscarriage Rebellion is a Pink Elephants podcast produced by our friends at Three Piece Studio.