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Finding authenticity with Atoosa Rubenstein
541 Plays2 years ago
Atoosa Rubenstein became the youngest editor-in-chief in Hearst Magazine's history when she founded CosmoGirl! in 1993 at age 26. In this episode, Brafton COO Meredith Farley talks with Atoosa not only about what she learned during her career at CosmoGirl! and Seventeen, but also how she dealt with burnout and what's changed and what's stayed the same in the digital era of content.
Subscribe to Atoosa's newsletter, Atoosa Unedited at https://atoosa.substack.com/
Content People is produced by Brafton, a leading content marketing agency headquartered in Boston. For more information and free content, visit us at https://www.brafton.com/
Show links:
Donald Robertson's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drawbertson/
Slate's profile of Atoosa: https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/09/atoosa-rubenstein-comeback-newsletter-profile.html
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Content People' Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Content People, a podcast where we talk to smart people about creative work, creative leadership, and their career journeys. This podcast is produced by Brafton. Brafton is a content marketing company powered by a global team of creative professionals and marketing experts. My name is Meredith Farley. I'm the COO at Brafton. I oversee our creative production and service teams, and I'm here with Ian Serbin. Hey, Ian. Hey, everybody.
00:00:36
Speaker
Ian's our creative director of video who's producing this podcast. Thank you very much for doing that Ian. Absolutely.
Guest Introduction: Atoosa Rubinstein
00:00:43
Speaker
Um, and I think we have a really exciting episode with Atusa. I'm really, I read the, um, I think the slate profile that was about her sort of return. And, uh, I can't believe we got her on the show.
00:00:57
Speaker
I know I'm like over the moon. So for those of you who don't know, Atoosa Rubinstein is the former editor in chief of Seventeen magazine and the founding editor of Cosmo Girl. She was super young when she did all of that. I think she was 26 or at 26, she became the youngest magazine editor in chief at Hearst over their 100 year history. Then she went on and did really cool stuff. Like she executive produced a MTV series, Miss Seventeen.
Atoosa's Career Journey and Burnout
00:01:27
Speaker
And now Atoosa has recently launched her own sub-stack. It's Atoosa Unedited. For those of you who knew or were familiar with Atoosa before, she used to write these really vulnerable, honest, incredibly compelling letters from the editor. And I think that really resonated with so many preteen and teen girls who were reading those magazines and they felt like they knew her. And I feel like this sub-stack that she's working on is like
00:01:56
Speaker
the new version of that. She was so awesome to talk to. What did you think about the conversation, Ian? I thought it was really great. She not only has this really awesome background, she accomplished so much, but she also experienced burnout. That comes with a really compressed initial start to her career. She learned so much from that.
00:02:20
Speaker
But she was also working at the highest levels of these magazines. And so she also learned a lot about what actually makes really good content. I think her points about shallow versus deep content and what it takes to produce deep content. I think those are great lessons, not just for people working at magazines or digital sites, but any content marketer can really take those to heart. Yeah, no, I totally agree.
00:02:50
Speaker
The Slate profile Ian mentioned, we'll put the link to that in the bio, and we can also put the link to her sub-stack as well. It was, I think the Slate profile was maybe last January or around then. I think that's right. It brought a two-set. When she was 35, she retired from, I think that's the burnout you're talking around too, Ian. She was like, I'm done. She left the public eye and
00:03:19
Speaker
The substack is her like kind of step back into a more public figure position. I loved that when we got to talk to Atoosa about TikTok, it is so fascinating to get her perspective on how modern day algorithms, the web search and Google relevance has totally influenced the way that we plant content.
Atoosa's Public Return via Substack
00:03:45
Speaker
And I thought she had really very thoughtful insights
00:03:50
Speaker
and was really open and honest with us about a lot of things. So I thought it was such a fun conversation. I really hope that you guys all enjoy it. And, you know, we're just starting out on our Content People podcast journey and hope you stick with us and that you enjoy our convo with a twosome.
00:04:18
Speaker
Hi, Atuza. Thank you so much for joining, content people. I'm really excited to have you on. You meant a lot to me growing up. I was a Cosmo Girl N17 subscriber. I love that. Thank you. I was born in New York City, but we moved to upstate New York when I was about five. And getting the magazines, reading your notes, it felt like
00:04:48
Speaker
unspeakably unspeakably like glamorous to me was the glimpse of the life that I was, you know, seeing through the pages. But also your, you know, your your letters every month were so inspiring and felt very real. And I know it wasn't just me, it was my friends too, we would get them, we would keep the magazines and have them around. And I, when I feel
00:05:16
Speaker
kind of a, I think the slate article about you last year, toward the end of last year, really kind of brought you back into my consciousness a bit. And I reflected a bit and I thought, man, I don't think I'd totally consciously clocked how much you had influenced my thoughts on career and love of content and the thought of being an editor. And so
00:05:46
Speaker
Um, when you started your subs deck, I was super thrilled and I have loved having a Tusa content back in my life.
Authenticity in Media: Atoosa's Perspective
00:05:54
Speaker
Wow. That's so sweet. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I feel like there is such a very real a Tusa effect. I am not alone in being, um, you know, of the generation of women that you impacted and influenced, like, why do you think you inspire so much devotion and fandom among your readers? Because it's such a real thing.
00:06:16
Speaker
That's so sweet. I mean, I can't think of it within that context, but I can't deny, right, that there's an Instagram site that's popular called Thank You Atoosa, right? It's not called Thank You Valerie or Thank You Anne Marie or Thank You, you know, somebody else who was an editor at the time. Thank you, Anne. I think that I was probably the first person to
00:06:43
Speaker
almost like bring this I like almost like reality like we became we became familiar in time with reality television but I sort of brought this dose of reality to the magazine space because for me too it was a dream come true you know and that was that was the context
00:07:07
Speaker
for me of that life. There are some people who, I don't know, are always going for the gold star, and they're like, I'm going to be an editor in chief, and blah, blah, blah. For me, it had just more of a fantastical, magical quality to it, both from the get-go as a reader reading the magazines. I too thought that they were
00:07:29
Speaker
they were a very special magical portal into another world for me that was a preferable world than to the world that I was growing up in. And then also throughout the process, you know, there wasn't a moment that I wasn't kind of having an outer body experience. Like this is so fucking cool. Like, you know,
00:07:53
Speaker
Even when my bosses would ask me to do things like get my dry cleaning, I was like, damn straight, I'm getting your dry cleaning, because you're the best. And so I had that enthusiasm. And I think that I communicated that enthusiasm when I became an editor in chief to the girls in a kind of a real way, as opposed to pretending to be a grownup. Because I was also 26.
00:08:20
Speaker
you know, the other editors in chief were the age I am today. You know, they were real grown ups with families and this and that. And I was just like, felt still like Cinderella at the ball. And that that energy was probably contagious. Yeah, guys, that makes so much sense. Because as you're talking, I'm thinking, well, what you say about reality TV, like kind of
00:08:45
Speaker
starting around the same time. Like maybe everyone after after we like this the sort of Cosmo girl and whatnot came before reality TV. And like we were everyone is kind of like starting to maybe well, it's fine. I don't want to say reality TV is authenticity. But the idea of like, we wanted something more real and like a peek behind the curtain and you were so much you were so we could feel your enthusiasm and
00:09:15
Speaker
to your point, it wasn't the super curated, already living and feeling part of and taking for granted the awesome lifestyle of really people who'd been doing the job for 30 years. That realness came through as much. I don't even think they shared their lifestyle. When I was a fashion editor, so prior to me being in your ether,
00:09:42
Speaker
I remember they would put me in fashion stories. That was very unusual today. When you look at the back of People magazine, you often see Andrea, who's the beauty director, all of those girls giving their favorite products, their favorite clothes, their ideas.
00:10:00
Speaker
That shit wasn't happening back then. So in like 19, like the late 90s when Cosmo was kind of putting me in their fashion stories and naming me, that also helped kind of build my star and my mystique even within the industry. So like the kind of the making of the it girl, and you want to know who actually started that whole thing with me is, do you know the artist Donald Robertson? He's very big on Instagram.
00:10:28
Speaker
No, but yeah, like he's like huge. I think it's like Donald Robertson is his Instagram name. But he at the time, he's huge now, was the creative director of Cosmopolitan. And he just like kind of saw me one day and was like, you. And he likes to say he discovered me in the fashion closet. But he did, he put me in front of the camera. And then from there, you know, everything took off.
00:10:57
Speaker
Wow. We can look him up and throw his Instagram in the show notes. I'm interested now to go. That's really cool. I mean, and also I know in your communications and letters to the readers, you are so vulnerable and it felt very, you know, you shared like that, you showed pictures, like you were like, I am not the perfect like,
00:11:25
Speaker
Like, the glamorous person we saw wasn't your history. And you were so sharing about that. And I think it helped people feel connected to you. And in your sub-stack, I feel like you've been so, what feels to me, like so raw in a way that's very generous. I'm curious, back then and now, do you ever feel nervous or unsure before
The Power of Personal Stories and Vulnerability
00:11:48
Speaker
you hit send? Wow. You just like, it's in you to be like. You know, back then when you were younger and I was younger,
00:11:54
Speaker
You know, I certainly had awareness of things in my life that I wasn't sharing, right? Whether it was incest from my childhood or the adultery, frankly, that I was experiencing as an editor in chief. But I wasn't ready to share it. And it also, I don't know that the incest would have been above everybody, the audience's head, but a lot.
00:12:20
Speaker
And I'm not sure that that's at that age. I don't know that it was certainly I was not ready to share any of it. And so what feels so beautiful and sort of like so much organicity to it is that now that you're older and you can hear my truth,
00:12:40
Speaker
I can also share it, you know, I both have the sort of emotional musculature to share it and you have the emotional musculature to receive it and and hopefully share back within the community, but No, nothing's ever been hard things have been
00:13:00
Speaker
Sticky, like a funny story, I'll tell you from when you were a teenager. I remember one of our first issues of Cosmo Girl, I wrote about how this friend of mine totally backstabbed me, and I go into detail, and my kids, I have now a teenager and nine-year-olds.
00:13:18
Speaker
And they love this story. And I have had this girl just totally screwed me over at camp. She was my best friend. And I wrote it in the thing. And literally, like the week before the issue came out, this girl reaches out to me after many, many, many years. I mean, we were 12 years old. Last time I talked to her saying, you were my best friend. You were this, you were that. And I was like, oh shit. And I just like name checked her too.
00:13:43
Speaker
So the next issue you'll see, the story might feel familiar to you. I never heard from her again. I still think of her and I still homes it one day, reconnect. But anyway, so yes, no, I never. And in fact, next week, I mean, now that we're, you know, we're talking about Roe B. Wade and that's so much in the news, you know, there is like, I did terminate a pregnancy while I was working.
00:14:13
Speaker
And I was pregnant in one of the most famous pictures of me. And I like the ones that is like all over like that. It's kind of like one of the pictures people use when they're writing about me and I was pregnant. And with a baby that, you know, I did not take the term. And so in kind of like thinking about that now, like that's a really dicey subject, right?
00:14:39
Speaker
nobody knows this literally nobody knows except for my best best friend, one friend. So I don't feel scared. But I definitely want to do the story justice. Yeah. Is it something that you feel like you are like interested to explore like through your sub stacks through your community? Yeah, yeah, I'll write about it in this week's sub stack. So Sunday sub stack, my
00:15:07
Speaker
In this moment, my expectation is it will be on that topic. It will be kind of about that picture and maybe what was going on for me. And just to kind of explore the importance of choice.
00:15:22
Speaker
and also the place for grief in our society in general. So, you know, for me, it's always like, it's not quite so, it always goes on a little bit of a path, emotionally. So I haven't explored it yet, but when we get off, that's what I'll be doing. Wow. Well, I think that it's interesting what you say about kind of, you know, maybe people my age who were, have kind of,
00:15:52
Speaker
older now kind of come along with you and are more in a place to receive those stories and the truth of your experience there. I feel like it's really meaningful and cathartic in a lot of ways for a lot of different people to hear you be so honest about these difficult and painful, but very real and not singular experiences in some ways.
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah, because I do feel like part of, you know, one of the issues with this particular topic is everybody wants to support the rights, you know, but nobody kind of wants to say, hey, I had this happen to me, and here's why. And I feel like it's within the personal stories and, and, you know, like,
00:16:46
Speaker
you know, how could someone like me get into a position like that? Like I was very successful. I was smart. It wasn't like I was a teenage girl who didn't know any better. But like when you kind of take the history of abuse and you know, the different ways that I was anesthetizing myself and you know, what would my, you know, just the many things that would have been impacted had I kept that pregnancy. I mean, I just think it's, I think it's a complicated issue. And I think if we can all share
00:17:13
Speaker
are complexities with each other as a society in general, not just on this topic, on all topics. I think there could be so much more just compassion for each other and acceptance and I hope peace and freedom within that. Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing I really appreciate about a lot of
00:17:41
Speaker
what you've been writing and putting out there is that you're not, you know, it's not black and white, it's you're not creating heroes and villains of your history or the experiences that you had your
00:17:55
Speaker
being incredibly honest about what you feel was like your, you know, I don't know what I'm looking for, but kind of your role in your personal history, but also really in an inspiring way talking to you about how you are kind of
00:18:14
Speaker
embracing self-love and compassion for everything that you survived and went through. And I think it's, um, it's such a, I find it like healing to read some of these things myself, just because it's very, um, I, I think so often, well, I don't want to say so often, but like historically as a culture we've treated or a society, we tend to treat things as so black and white as, um, you know, I was wrong here, they were wrong there, et cetera.
00:18:44
Speaker
And you really bring compassion, love, and acceptance of ambiguity to a lot of topics in a really thoughtful way. Is that something you do consciously, or is that? I believe that.
00:18:58
Speaker
How many people, like when you think about the way partners fight, you know, whether they're married or just in a relationship, there's always like somebody like wants to win, like somebody has to win. And really we're all right because we're bringing to the table all of our woundings, however large or small. And if we can make space for all of our respective woundings, I think we can just have compassion and respect for one another.
00:19:27
Speaker
And I feel like that's just what I've learned. I'm 50 years old. I've gone through my share of life. And there's plenty more ahead. And that's just what I've learned is that everything is complex. There are no heroes and villains. When I talk about my perpetrator for the incest that I survive, I have so much compassion for him. Because who does that? Only somebody who's very, very hurt
00:19:54
Speaker
is also a victim of the ancestral family woundings. We are all survivors of our woundings. And if we can just kind of make space for the tenderness, not just our own, not only sort of armoring to protect our tenderness, but to have kind of reverence for each other's tenderness. Yeah, so I mean, I guess
00:20:24
Speaker
I'm not doing it. I never do anything to teach. I don't see myself as a teacher, but it's definitely something I've learned, so I definitely model it. I definitely model it, yeah. One thing, and I feel like I'm going down a slightly different line of questioning than I'd initially been, but I'm really curious about is that
00:20:44
Speaker
One thing I feel like both in professional environments and in personal life can, I think, be difficult to navigate is empathy, understanding, and compassion for why someone did what they did, but also the appropriate amount of boundaries and helpful anger for yourself. Oh, yeah. What's your approach to that? Well, I think the most important thing is just mindfulness. When you're in your body,
00:21:15
Speaker
you know, you can navigate both in terms of your own woundings and what your comfort level is, which is like, you know, the healthy boundaries that you're talking about too. But also just be present with what's over there. I think a lot of times when we're not present, which most people unfortunately aren't because as a culture, we're very uncomfortable with being uncomfortable.
00:21:44
Speaker
And in some ways we're uncomfortable being uncomfortable emotionally, but we're very comfortable being uncomfortable like with the external piece. Like meaning we're taught at a young age, you go to school, nobody fucking likes school, right? But you have to sit there and like, oh, you have to do your work even though you don't want to do homework. Like at a young age, you're kind of taught to ignore your own limits in some ways.
00:22:13
Speaker
And, yeah.
00:22:15
Speaker
But don't communicate your hurt. Don't communicate your discomfort. So we just get all of these really mixed signals as young people that I think is important to sort of detangle as we get older. And for me, there's no magic bullet in every situation. First, do this, then do that. But for me, what has been a massive game changer is meditation.
Mindfulness and Meditation Practices
00:22:42
Speaker
And people say, oh, I meditate.
00:22:45
Speaker
But what they mean is I meditate, like, sometimes, you know, like, I've tried it, I tried to, but meditation as a daily practice has completely altered how I show up in every situation in my life. Can I give you an example? Yes, yes, yeah. So, last weekend I did this TED talk, right? TEDx talk.
00:23:12
Speaker
And before the whole shebang started, the whole cast, meaning all the speakers, are on stage, they're like, so there's a finale song. And we're all gonna, it's like song about joy, and we're all gonna sing the song. We're clapping and we're holding hands. All right.
00:23:31
Speaker
Now you and I don't know each other that well. That sounds like the my biggest nightmare come true, okay? I'm like horrified like I like I still have a part of me that you know just like has to have like a little bit of a cool image you know so like this idea of being like you know like on stage like I don't know like and I said
00:23:53
Speaker
And so I was in this position once years ago at a Planned Parenthood thing I was getting an award at and Natalie Merchant, who's one of my all time heroes, pulls me on stage to sing with the rest of the honorees. And I was like holding her hand still thinking, can I die right now? It was like the worst. I have PTSD from it. And so I pulled them aside and I was very proud of myself. I was like, so I'm not going to be doing this.
00:24:20
Speaker
And they were like, and I didn't take the mean way. And they were just like, but everyone's doing it, including like the celebrity chef and everyone's doing it. I'm like, that's great for everyone. I'm not doing this because I don't feel comfortable. And like, they just were like, I just had to sit with that. I was like, that's it. And then, so I was like feeling very proud of myself.
00:24:43
Speaker
And then I heard one of the other speakers, and he was a refugee. And he was talking about being othered. You know, that when he was in Africa, he was othered because he was gay. When he came here within the gay community, he was othered because he's a refugee. Within the refugee community, he's othered because he's gay. Within the black community, he's othered because he's African. You know, like all of the other. And I realized like, holy shit. Because of the meditation practice, because of my sort of embodiment,
00:25:11
Speaker
As I'm listening to him speak, I said, oh, I really relate to this idea of other. I've always related to it. I'm othering myself by not being part of this community at the end. It's like, I'm so scared of not fitting in and not being that kind of like loosey goosey, joyful person. Cause I still am like a little fashiony inside. That's not, that's like the opposite kind of vibe. And I said, I'm othering myself.
00:25:42
Speaker
And so my first thought was, okay, next time I'll make a different choice. But again, I'm still present. I'm embodied. I'm staying with myself. And I was like, well, the opportunity is this time. This is the next time. And so I found the girl right before the finale and I was like, I'm sorry. I really sat with it and I've changed my mind. I'm going to do it.
00:26:01
Speaker
Now the end of the story isn't I did it and my gosh, I'm going on tour now. I'm joining a gospel choir. This is my future. No, I was uncomfortable, but I felt comfortable in the step I was taking on behalf of myself and my own growth and not othering myself because I've been othered or because I felt othered, not like allowing this trauma from my past to just be shifted a little bit and for me to have a little control over it as opposed to it having control over me.
00:26:31
Speaker
And so that's like a very different story than what you're asking me about, but the connection is embodiment. And when we can be as embodied as possible, and that's not always easy, then we can really both hold our boundaries in a healthy way and also have compassion and empathy for whomever we're in community with and show up for them.
00:27:01
Speaker
And I actually believe meditation is the magic bullet. I love that story. Thank you so much for sharing it. And I like to that it's like it's a two step process where first you're I think you're in your body like what are my boundaries? I'm not going to force myself to I would feel the same I'd be like, please got anything to not do that. And then you like sit with it further and dig deeper and really listen. And then kind of actually
00:27:29
Speaker
step out of those boundaries a little bit. That's beautiful. I'm sure you've heard of IFS, like it's a kind of therapy, internal family systems. It's gotten very hot now, but it's like kind of therapy I've always done, like when I was working as well. And so, you know, basically, because I went through it with my therapist afterward, and the way he kind of broke it down was like, first, I advocated for my young part, it was great. And by advocating for that young part, I kind of was like, it's okay, it's just that, like, I got you.
00:27:59
Speaker
And then a more grown up part was able to come out and hear him, hear the guy that was speaking about his othering. And then an older part was able to then advocate for the place that I want to be heading toward, which is not being necessarily
00:28:20
Speaker
Led by my wounded parts and ultimately that's that happens so much at the office, right? like I mean people just step on our wounded parts and then we're just like it, you know turns into this stuff that is just You know my wounding versus your wounding and and I do think that
00:28:44
Speaker
I think that for me meditation, like I didn't meditate when I was working at all. This meditation practice is kind of new. It's like within the past six months and it's been a game changer.
00:28:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the inner child work, I totally agree. I try to do a bit of it. And I agree with you that our inner children are, you know, I think there's like authority figures, structures, bosses, and those parental archetypes trigger us so easily. And
00:29:16
Speaker
I found that to be helpful too. So what kind of meditation do you do? Is it transcendental or guided? I tried everything. Like I did that, like you paid $1,200 and you get your mantra and by the way, almost everybody I've ever met, like who's been naughty enough like me to share their mantra and had the same mantra as me. No, I don't want to shit on it because like it works for a lot of people. For whatever reason, it didn't work for me.
00:29:44
Speaker
Um, so I'm more in like a sort of mindfulness based. So like Tara Brock, like Jack cornfield, Jack cornfield is like my.
00:29:55
Speaker
my north star so you know every day like today I did it could be different ways like I might do like a 30 minute guided meditation with Jack from the from his website today there was like a particular one I wanted to do but it was only 11 minutes so then I sat an additional 20 minutes in silence
00:30:18
Speaker
But the most important thing to me is it's like this little tweak. A lot of people talk about how you just got to make room for it. Like you're doing something like eating your broccoli when you hate broccoli. And for me, I do it consistently every day because it feels so good. I don't mean afterward. During it, all of it, it feels almost like a
00:30:45
Speaker
orgasmic experience of just being free inside of myself. And there kind of isn't a better part of my day. I mean, I love seeing my children, but on a selfish level, like that time inside of me with just complete freedom and no tethers to anybody. It's a gift that I give myself every day. And if we can just
00:31:15
Speaker
see it as that. It's a massage. It's not broccoli. Interesting. Yeah. It's like brushing your teeth inside of you. You would never not brush your teeth, right? If I even look at my kids without brushing my teeth in the morning, they're like, get out of my face. So that's like the first thing I do is obviously I brush my teeth. And then the first thing I do for my inner life is meditate.
00:31:40
Speaker
I meditate as well. I've spent, I've only in the past few months gotten like really, I keep a tracker and I just give myself a little checkmark for the day. I find like a satisfaction there. And I've also found it really,
00:31:53
Speaker
transformative, but you're inspiring me to be even more disciplined about it. I know you also, you do morning pages, right? Yeah, you know, I've actually taken a break from the morning pages as because there's only so much you can do, right? And I feel like as my meditation practice has gotten deeper, I haven't had the space to do the morning pages. But I find that the morning pages are really helpful for me and
00:32:23
Speaker
spurts of time, like when they have a lot going on, because it's just like an emptying of the pipes. And I just feel like right now I don't need them. I remember there was a time that I had found out my husband had cheated on me. I happened to have been doing, this is years and years ago, over 10 years ago, 12 years ago, and I happened to be doing morning pages at the time. Oh my God, it was so helpful.
00:32:50
Speaker
when I've gone through breakups, oh my God, so helpful. Now what I do is I just have my morning pages notebook around and whenever I feel like something's clogging the pipes, I'll just like pull it out and just start doing it spontaneously.
00:33:09
Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, it's a great tool. And for anyone listening who doesn't know, it's, I think it's Julia Cameron, who wrote The Artist's Way. She's a huge proponent of three longhand pages. Oh my gosh, yeah, that's the book. Medusa is holding up the book. It's an awesome, an awesome tool. And maybe we can link to it in the show notes for anyone watching or talking about. And she also does, you know, I did a 16 week workshop with her. And she does those online now.
00:33:38
Speaker
And that is also really something. Because yes, of course, it's very easy to do these pages yourself every morning. But to do it with her, and she's a real interesting, eccentric character, she will teach other different things. And all of the things I learned from her are like little tools that I just pull out of my toolkit when I need them. And they're just wonderful.
00:34:02
Speaker
Oh my gosh, I'm gonna check that out. I really like Russell Brand's podcast and she was a guest on it. And I have listened to that episode like three or four times. She also really advocates for on walks, like the idea that you listen to podcasts or music, you're kind of transporting yourself to the artist consciousness and you need to deal with your own self.
00:34:24
Speaker
which I found so awesome at times and also awful at other times. I'm like, I want to be anywhere but hanging out with just myself. Yeah, no, we should do that. She called it the artist's walk. But you know, now how I've transformed that like again, knowing that she gave this great toolkit and then I kind of make it my own like how now with the artist pages, sometimes I will do them in the morning. Other times like I can pull out my notebook and show you that too.
00:34:49
Speaker
It's all right here, but I go for a walk with my best friend David Almost every day and that walk he's a chaplain So, you know we talk about the the kind of things that you and I are talking about now at length and in depth but also it's about all you know, like seeing Central Park and
00:35:09
Speaker
in its different colors, in its different stages, seeing people. And so we really are kind of present with what we see and to be able to share that with each other is just so beautiful. Wow. This is, and finding your practice is very inspiring. Thank you. But you know, because a lot of times people at your age, and I was like this as well, you put your output before your input, right?
Evolving Work-Life Balance Perspectives
00:35:38
Speaker
And so
00:35:39
Speaker
you have a big job and you have to perform at that job and that is tied up into also your own self-esteem, right? And then you fit in your input when you can. And what I've learned now as like a 50 year old is the input, meaning the things we do to nourish ourselves must come first.
00:36:04
Speaker
And then do we have time for XYZD? Um, because what I learned having been, you know, when I was a younger your age and out in the world career wise, I remember thinking like people would be so surprised. I was very successful. Like I had so much output. I'd be like, I'm creating a show on MTV and I'm doing it and then I'm on a today show and I'm like, oh, I was constantly output output output.
00:36:33
Speaker
And I just look at other television chief at all magazines and I feel like, why are you not as prolific? Well, because they valued their lives, you know, and their careers ultimately ended up being far longer than mine because I completely burnt out. And so, you know, I don't know what their practices were. So I'm not necessarily talking about them per se, but just for me, what I value now is my wellbeing.
00:37:03
Speaker
And my wellbeing needs, my friends, um, needs to be in nature. And I need to have like a significant relationship with my internal life, which meditation gives me. And so those three things have to happen. And if they don't happen, then I can't write my sub stack. I can't commit to even lunch with somebody that might be a great opportunity or whatever. Um,
00:37:31
Speaker
So that's just, you know, it's something to think about. And I even like put socializing outside of best friends in the category of output, because going to social events is so draining. I got invited to something this Friday by a very kind of well known person in New York. And she was like, Oh,
00:37:50
Speaker
this person and that person, oh, well, you know, it'll be so good for you to be in this, you know, and, and, you know, yes, it would be, you know, I'll be in the New York Post if I go to that, you know, like, that'll, that'll, that's what's going to happen in a good way. Hopefully not in the bad way. And because I've been in the Post in a bad way too. But, um, but I'm going through a divorce right now. And so I have a lot of, my feelings are very kind of,
00:38:21
Speaker
Tender. And I don't have time in my Friday to do that. I have to do myself care. So, and you know, I say that when I say no. And people, you know, it's a little weird. People think it's a little weird when I say things like that. But, you know, it keeps me on point with what's important to me.
00:38:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's so interesting. When you say that, it's like, oh my God, I can imagine. I mean, I'm not being invited to those things, but I can imagine putting all of these marquee names and PR opportunities
00:39:06
Speaker
they feel so huge. And so choosing yourself over them, like, I imagine making a habit of that. Also, you learn that you are more important than even all of those things that other... Well, the inner child, right? The inner child knows she's scared right now. She has a lot of feelings of fear because of the transitions and like, we're not going to make her go. You know, like maybe we made her go to school for all those years and we made her go to,
00:39:32
Speaker
you know, piano practice once you didn't want to, but we're not going to do that anymore. Wow. Well, I kind of, I want to transition a little bit in line with what you're talking on about burnout. So I think a lot of women my age, I'm 35 are
00:39:51
Speaker
having a bit of a rethink about how they approach work in life in line with what you're talking about. And for me, Gen Z, this younger generation, slightly questioning and rebelling against stuff you mentioned, hustle culture, the girl boss ethos, it's interesting. It's pushing boundaries and perspectives for me. And I'm really, how do you think women's perspectives on work
00:40:21
Speaker
are changing now. And I know that that was somewhat the concept of girl boss and hustle culture. I know it's some of what you touched on your TED talk a little bit too. I'm really excited to get your thoughts and perspective on what's happening right now. Yeah. I mean, I think that was exactly the... I experienced this. I left my career at the height.
00:40:48
Speaker
because it was completely untenable to me. And I recently reconnected with my therapist from back then and, um, it had been many years and, and I'd almost forgotten how bad it felt inside. And then when I talked to him, he remembered and he was just like, do you remember like, you didn't even, you felt uncomfortable when you were outside
00:41:15
Speaker
and like walking to an appointment because you felt like you were not being productive. Like you felt like you'd get in trouble. Like you were not, you know, like it was almost like he, I mean, he called it a boraphobia. And, um, cause I was filled with so much fear when I wasn't like doing output and like kind of creating something.
00:41:41
Speaker
And, yeah, I mean, I think that what I hear and, you know, I'm unlike you, I'm not in the, you know, an appropriate culture and to be witnessing it firsthand. But, you know, I can I can understand
00:41:59
Speaker
that the kind of hustle culture that I was one of the like oh jeez of you know of just like work around the clock you can do it you could be anything you want to be at what cost you know we never really addressed at what cost right I left in order to address at what cost
00:42:17
Speaker
But I think that, you know, these younger people are coming into the workforce and they're seeing a mass and is my guess. And they're thinking, this doesn't feel right. You know, this doesn't seem appropriate. And I think all of us, because of the pandemic, during the pandemic, had to reevaluate
00:42:35
Speaker
Because even moms who don't have jobs participate in hustle culture in some ways, right? They hustle their kids, like going from Mandarin class to horseback riding to tennis to, you know, and then when all of that was stripped away and there was probably so much more peace and feelings of freedom, despite the, you know, kind of some of the horrible stuff that was also happening in terms of people's health.
00:43:04
Speaker
that must have felt like a relief. So yeah, I just, I mean, one of the biggest points I guess I make in my TED talk is that like, you know, we talk about the great resignation and I see like TikTok videos about like how to be a freegan, like how to, how to retire by age 30. You can be a freegan, you can be a this, you can be a that. And I always just say, well, how about we just stop defining our self-worth through our output? How about we start there for ourselves, you know, and
00:43:33
Speaker
And I could have done that had I known that. I didn't know, like I didn't know what was wrong. I didn't know why I was hustling. I didn't know that I was kind of being chased by, you know, kind of trauma from my childhood. You know, I had to kind of pull all of that apart and understand like how I got there. But once I did, I realized that, you know, I didn't necessarily need to leave my job.
00:44:03
Speaker
I could have taken better care of myself while I was in it. And so I think that is certainly the great opportunity. And I think if enough people do it, we will hopefully shift that hustle culture within companies too.
00:44:26
Speaker
Yeah. And it's when you're talking about like feeling a little stressed, walking outside, like we're fully remote. Like if I walk around the corner to a cafe and get a coffee in between meetings, I feel I have to, I recognize that I feel guilty. I'm like, that's crazy. But I've got this kind of feeling of I need to be available. If someone has a question, G chat, etc. Like, you know, you're, you're a bad
00:44:53
Speaker
manager and see if you're not there for it during the workday, which is, you know, insane. And I think a lot of that comes from our childhood.
00:45:04
Speaker
uh, and kind of being forced into school and forced to pay attention, forced to really attend. Um, and I think it's like, it's trauma. Um, and it does show up and if we can just name it and just acknowledge that we feel it, um, I think that's big because I never named it. You know, I never, um, I, I just felt it and I assume there was something wrong with me. Yeah.
00:45:34
Speaker
And I think one thing I'm really somewhat related and really curious for your thoughts on is I like this incredibly fast-paced digital age that we're living in where everyone is connected and there's so much content and info coming at us all the time.
00:45:57
Speaker
one thing kind of like even just thinking about and prep for this meeting, I was remembering what a tactile experience content used to be for me like I would wait, you know, I'd be
00:46:08
Speaker
excited for the magazines to come. And sometimes I'd look in the mailbox and they wouldn't be there that day. And I'd be like, ah, maybe tomorrow. And then if it was really hot or cold that day, the magazines are hot or cold. And then you're paging through them for the whole month and revisiting and relooking at these same articles and photographs. And now an article or any image is just like, it's
The State of Digital Content Today
00:46:33
Speaker
so fleeting. It has a shelf life of hours.
00:46:36
Speaker
And content has changed so, so much. It's changing our brains, I think. But what do you see as, what am I trying to ask, I guess? Do you think there is an ethical way forward around content creation and consuming that's going to keep our nervous systems regulated so that we are not
00:47:06
Speaker
You know, we're not out there freaking out, staring at our phones, looking at 18 articles on the way to grab a cup of coffee every day. I know that's a lot. And even like hurting our necks. I mean, that's like a real thing, right? For me, it is. I think that right now, there is a great opportunity. Content is not only fleeting, it is very low quality.
00:47:37
Speaker
Um, there is an art form to everything. You know, there is an art form to photography. There is an art form to, I mean, everything, right? Everything has, has, there is mastery and the people that have achieved mastery and content for the most part are not part of the content game right now.
00:48:04
Speaker
because content is being created by everyday people. And I think that there is something really cool about that. And there's a place for that. You know, there was a time when
00:48:20
Speaker
You know, like my thought and my vision always was, and technology wasn't quite there when I was there, but is to sort of have a, have like that sort of higher level, like having all the fact checkers and copy editors, you know, really, and reporters who are just experienced skilled reporters creating work.
00:48:44
Speaker
And then having community that is vibrant. And so now what's happened is it's just the community part pretty much. And so like somebody was telling me like this is kind of related but different. Like they were doing an ad campaign photo shoot and the makeup artist was an influencer. And you know, makeup artists, like when you look at
00:49:14
Speaker
the makeup artists that were very big when you were younger, that might not have been on your radar, but like the Kevin Aquans of the world. I mean, these were artists, you know what I mean? They had vision. And now it's kind of like, if you can make a TikTok video and then they just kind of retouch, retouch it, you know what I mean? And it's just, everything has just gone kind of sunk a few levels down.
00:49:42
Speaker
So I think that there is a huge opportunity to create very well curated content. It requires someone with money and a vision and courage to do it. You know, unfortunately, the major media companies are very fear-based. Their business got just
00:50:13
Speaker
eaten up and so now they're also in the algorithm game and the folks who know how to hire top talent and have had top talent in the past are now just hiring kind of middle management to just kind of keep things going as opposed to like when I was hired
00:50:41
Speaker
They gave me full rain to do whatever I wanted. And some of that stuff was like, I created a sticker page, right? That's like expensive, very expensive. It was like $100,000 a month.
00:50:59
Speaker
on investment on their part. But it really brought in the reader. So that was like, that was great. But I also ran pictures of vaginas, because I felt it was really important for girls to know what their equipment looks like. Yeah. And they were surprised by that. Walmart and Albertson didn't like that. They pulled it off the shelves. But still, it was something, you know, it was
00:51:26
Speaker
It was a point of view. It was directional at the time. Now, you know, Goop does it all the time, maybe. But at the time, it was very unusual. And nobody's doing anything unusual now, except for like being a train wreck. And I don't mean it in a mean way. Like if somebody is a train wreck where they have something terrible that's happened,
00:51:49
Speaker
then we'll address it. Like when Jeff Bezos sends around a picture of his junk and it gets on the internet. Oh, you know what I mean? But like there isn't that kind of this about something really powerful that's being created with intention. Not for young people or I don't think for women either. I don't get any magazines. I'm not like
00:52:14
Speaker
pressed on like, I have to see XYZ website. I just feel like I'm eating pirate's booty all day, kind of looking at Instagram, hoping for something to touch me in some way, but nothing does. You know, it's, yeah, like, as you're talking, I'm thinking about how, well,
00:52:38
Speaker
how kind of like TikTok, for example, is like the perfect dopamine addiction, short circuit, like it's short, there's something unexpected at the end, the next thing comes up right away. And it's like our baser like circuitry is so stimulated and in there. But then that kind of like our more conscious, when that is what is served, our greater self is not really
00:53:04
Speaker
engaged or inspired in the same way. And it's hard though, like how do companies, you know, when you're competing with how to short circuit users attention, how do you engage folks with deeper, but slightly more challenging, higher barrier to entry? Sit down at a meeting with high level people.
00:53:26
Speaker
And we come up with a goddamn plan. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, no one's even having that conversation because they're just like, Oh, I mean, this is the way. Yeah. When I think about like my own experiences with content, you know, I remember being a senior in college, I went to Barnard and like, just like sitting around flipping a magazine. And one day I saw something called cutting. Like self-injury. I had never heard of it before.
00:53:55
Speaker
I was a cutter. I thought I was the only person in the world who did this. Like you know how like
00:54:01
Speaker
You have like some weird thing you might do with your nail or you might pick your toes and you think nobody else does. Imagine like you then come to this thing and you're like, holy shit, this is the thing. Why do people do it? I'm reading it, I'm reading it. Incest, incest, what's incest? Now, I don't grow up with the internet. There's no internet at this point. Incest, that word sounds familiar. I've heard incest, incest. I go to literally the Merriam Webster dictionary my brother gave me for high school graduation. I look up incest, I'm like, holy shit, that happened to me. You know what I mean? And so like I'm having this massive,
00:54:31
Speaker
life-changing moment that both clarified what I would do for the rest of my life that I would want to create those moments for other people in a very thoughtful way and began my own healing journey. And that was because of a group of editors who sat at a table and wanted to help their audience.
Content Creation: Intuition vs. Algorithms
00:54:53
Speaker
And they weren't thinking about how do I get enough clicks? They weren't thinking about, you know, I sat down with my, my team every day. And anytime I heard any bullshit that was like, Oh, in style to this, I'm like, Oh, did you just like, I joined you in picture.
00:55:14
Speaker
this girl, you know, this girl needs us and let's go read. What is she up to? They would start their day reading for 30 minutes letters from our audience to really understand like, how do you be in the headspace of this girl? Because we weren't right. We were grownups, young grownups, but still grownups. And so, and then you create from there, think about like the thoughtfulness that goes into that, you know, as opposed to like today, it's like,
00:55:42
Speaker
there's no thoughtfulness. I looked at one fucking cat video on Instagram and sent it to my boyfriend. And then suddenly my entire feed of cat videos, it's like, okay, like, I just needed that one, you know, that, and it reminds me of, and we've talked about this in my sub stack, I think maybe, maybe I haven't, but this is important to know. Like when I was creating the magazines, we would have focus groups, right? And we'd also have monthly focus groups, sort of surveys that we would do with our research department.
00:56:12
Speaker
And without fail, whatever came up as the number one celebrity in magazine research and in focus groups that readers said they want would be the lowest selling cover. The highest selling cover would be somebody not even on the list. Because really, like, I mean, users, today we call them users, back then we called them readers.
00:56:37
Speaker
what they don't know they want yet they don't they don't even know you know what I mean so like I remember uh I remember Anne Hathaway was like very highly rated as somebody because she was in a movie maybe Princess Diaries or something and um all the girls were kind of interested in her um and we bumped her for a cover and did um uh Mary Kate and Ashley
00:57:01
Speaker
They've never been on a cover before of anything other than, it was the beginning of the Mary Kay and Ashley that we then became like fashion icons and whatever. Oh my God, that issue sold so well. And like, I remember the publicist of Anne Hathaway was like, how could you bump her? You know, at one point I thought it was about Reese Witherspoon, but it was about the Olsen twins. How could you bump her for then? Like, people wanted that. And so if we go just by algorithm,
00:57:31
Speaker
Not only are we not doing a service, like coming from like a heart-based place, but when you're not doing a service, then you're just a fucking, you're just like a, a folly. You know what I mean? Like TikTok is only as big as the folly. And, and wherein I created a magazine for a few years and all these years later, you care about me.
Building Lasting Audience Relationships
00:58:00
Speaker
And you care about me because I cared about you. And that was a relationship. And that is how we build brands is not just by like, what is our short term game? And how can we get the most number of clicks or how can I have the most number of followers? I don't have the most number of followers, but my fucking followers, like I will tell you,
00:58:22
Speaker
Like when we see each other on the street, we cry because they changed my life and I changed their life. And that's just real. And there is an opportunity for that. There is, it's not about necessarily the me doing it. Maybe it's one of you guys doing it in your age group, but there is an opportunity to really be in community in the way we're all hungry for.
00:58:46
Speaker
And so it's really, it's going to take somebody like, look at this fucking Elon Musk, right? I mean, I love him because he made my car and I love my car, but I mean, this Koopaloo spent all that money buying Twitter. We just need somebody with a lot of money who says it matters to be in connection and community of service. We can do better than clickbait. Somebody with money has got to do it because this shit doesn't happen for free.
00:59:16
Speaker
I am, I, that's, I'm feeling really inspired by what you're saying. I feel like even to go back to where you started with it, just like, you're like, what is cutting? Oh my God. What like my, I feel like my heart is pounding even just thinking about that moment and then thinking about a time where, I don't know, not like a dark ages before the internet, but where
00:59:37
Speaker
information was harder to come by. But good information is still hard to come by. And I know because I have a 13 year old who's constantly trying to do recipes from TikTok and they don't work. Because it's not good content.
00:59:56
Speaker
And it's like when you talk about service and like service, wisdom, sharing curation and kind of the alchemy of like, how can I connect with what people want to be connected with about? I also think that what you're talking about, like the TikToks, it's kind of like not to shade TikTokers, but it's kind of taking, it's like, I'm going to take your, your attention, your, your, your, your circuits for,
01:00:22
Speaker
Be my follower. At the end, it's like follow and share, follow and share, follow and share. We never asked you to follow and share. You know what I mean? We just tried to do a good job for you and I think all the magazines back in the day did. And I just think that there is that opportunity to give instead of take. And it will require, I think, somebody with an appetite and deep pockets to fund it, honestly. Yeah.
01:00:52
Speaker
Well, I know we're at time and I am so grateful. I feel like I'm going to be riding on thinking about what you shared for the next few weeks. So if people want to follow you right now and want to engage with you and your content, where do you want to direct them toward?
01:01:11
Speaker
I mean, like a lot of people, I'm on Instagram. It's just my full name, Atusa Rubenstein. But where I do my work is on Substack. So it's atusa.substack.com. And I have a weekly letter that feels very much like the grown-up version of the editor's letters I used to write back then. For sure. And I've loved them. I will get into both of those in the show notes. Thank you.
01:01:38
Speaker
Thank you so much. This was such a fun conversation. I'm so glad that you are out there doing what you're doing and talking about these things. Thank you so much, Atoosa. You're welcome. Thank you so much. All right, everyone. We hope you enjoyed our chat with Atoosa. We'll be coming to you next week with an interview with Cliff Stevens. Cliff is the head of Liberty Mutual's in-house agency, Copper Giants. He has tons of wisdom and experience about building an in-house agency,
01:02:07
Speaker
working at more traditional places like Arnold. He is a font of wisdom, super cool. We'll also put a little plug here for Brafton's content. If you are not among the almost 100,000 marketers who subscribe to our newsletter, you are seriously missing out on some really good content information. We'll put the link in the show notes below if you want to subscribe.
01:02:29
Speaker
And that's it, folks. Thanks for listening. You can rate and review us on iTunes, and if you want to get in touch, you can email us at contentpeople at rafton.com.