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Chelemma - Tougie's Take Podcast (3/25/24)
132 Plays1 year ago
- The Fella's are joined by BMajuh to talk about the state of NHL eSports.
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Transcript
Kickoff & NHL Gaming World Championship Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome, everybody, to another edition of the Toogies Take podcast. We are back again. Well, most of us, because endurance has slept through his alarm, but have no fear. There's still three of us today. I am joined alongside Mr. Sin for the win. Yes. And joining us this time out,
00:00:26
Speaker
One of our fellow broadcasters over at SportsGamer.gg, B Major on the show. Brandon, it is great to have you here as my voice has already given out. Yeah, man. Great to be on the show for the first time. I always love to and have been wanting to be on here for a minute. So happy to join you and Sid and ready to get started. Let's do it. Yeah, we have on getting you on the show, but we have some good topics for you to join us on and, you know,
00:00:56
Speaker
a lovely special occasion as um over the weekend and this will be probably the the main talking point of the show we'll see if we just get into it now and see where it leads who knows maybe we will um but over the weekends probably the biggest talking point within our scene was the uh the reception
Critique of NHL Gaming World Championship Execution
00:01:20
Speaker
to the NHL's Gaming World Championship, the GWC. And given all of our experience within the esports scene, Endo included, you know, you popped up into my chat when I was streaming on Saturday night and you're just like, I have so many thoughts, but I don't know where to air them. And I'm like, I know, I know the perfect place because I know Sin and I have plenty of thoughts on this as well. Yeah, I mean, it's
00:01:51
Speaker
It's just one of those cases of like, I'll compare it to our fears about the Ovechkin, right? Is he going to gradually decline or will there just be a steep falloff? And it seems when it's come to the NHL Esports scene, all of a sudden, there was just this steep, steep falloff. And like this is the GWC, which is supposedly has been the largest
00:02:14
Speaker
Showcase, essentially, of NHL e-sports scene. And the venue that they had it at, I completely forgot it was happening. Another thing, lack of promotion. It was just an epic fail in every single way.
Decline of NHL Esports & Pandemic Impact
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah, so for those that missed it, the GWC North American side of the tournament, because they still have the world final portion, the NA versus EU thing, took place this weekend from the NHL store in New York City
00:02:53
Speaker
Leading to some images where they were essentially just set up in a corner of this store. Optics are a big thing, a very big thing in a situation like this. And I don't know if they could have, they could have picked a worse location.
00:03:22
Speaker
But they would have had to try, you know, like setting up a table in the middle of your of your shop is pretty low compared to what we've seen. Really across the board in the NHL Esports side of things. When the G.W.C. first started, it was what, twenty eighteen? Yeah, I think so.
00:03:50
Speaker
Heavy investment in that first tournament, the hype around it was awesome. I was on Twitch already at that point. The hype around that tournament was great. You had memorable moments as well from the early days of the GWC. I hate to say it, Nooj, but he is involved in the most memorable moments. Yes. I still say just kidding to him.
00:04:21
Speaker
as often as I can, especially when we play like FC Pro clubs. He's a factor of memeable content. Like for a guy like that, you know, the soundboard stuff that we have him on, like he's just, he's a very memeable dude at times, but yeah. Oh, dude, that is still one of the funniest moments in esports.
00:04:44
Speaker
And shout out to the other guy who doesn't even, I think, Gren? No, Gris. Wait. Gris. Gris, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also knows. Not Gris Gold, but he doesn't even play NHL anymore. Yeah. Gras did, it is Gras. Gras, that's what it was. He went into, I don't even think he does that anymore, but he did go into, like,
00:05:08
Speaker
kind of the F1 e-sports team and that type of league there and was very, very good there as well. So, which is interesting because he was probably one of the first to have kind of success in the early days of the GWC only to then just be like, this really isn't a long-term
00:05:39
Speaker
thing to focus on. And I think in the subsequent five years or so, especially this year, we have seen a lot of people take a step back.
Financial Challenges & Organizational Withdrawals
00:05:53
Speaker
You know, particularly from our experiences with sports gamer just within a calendar year of February 2023 to February 2024.
00:06:05
Speaker
We saw a heavy exodus of talents from the scene on both sides, both North American, including the dissolution of Entourage, who won the Sports Gamer World Final in February of 2023.
00:06:23
Speaker
We have seen drastic changes to teams and organizations, representation that has gone away, players that have gone away and said that it's not really worth it anymore. And that's kind of the discussion I think that we wanted to have, was how did we go from the heights of pre-pandemic
00:06:49
Speaker
NHL eSports even during pandemic I would say it peaked at that point because like the foundation was there some of that money was still rolling in and people you know real sports kind of got shut down for a while so everyone kind of turned to eSports for a little bit but because of all that and like companies being you know having to be you know more financially stringent so to speak like
Community Toxicity & Its Consequences
00:07:14
Speaker
Then it started to fall off when that money began to dry up due to the pandemic. So it was kind of a good and a bad. Like viewership peaked around that time. Hype level peaked, but then the money disappeared after that. So yeah, it really declined after the pandemic kind of hit.
00:07:34
Speaker
I can't disagree with that, right? And, you know, I did go back
Reflections on NHL Esports' Past Potential
00:07:37
Speaker
and look. So with the GWC, there was the 2018 tournament and the three different regional finals that they had. They had a Canadian regional, US regional, European regional, and it led to the final kind of six that they had there held in Las Vegas for 50K.
00:08:00
Speaker
And like we mentioned, the hype level surrounding this particular tournament was up there. I gotta remember solid viewership for not only the finals, the regionals as well, and just the buildup to what felt like the scene finally getting the momentum that a lot of people saw.
Need for Self-Policing in Esports
00:08:28
Speaker
In 2018,
00:08:30
Speaker
You had already had LG around for over a decade doing what they do. Sports gamer had already been around for years as well on the European side of things. And you just started to think, okay, here's this momentum. Where's this going to go? And really through the GWC is where you started to see
00:08:56
Speaker
that elevation take place. You started to see more NHL teams hosting these tournaments and getting involved, which we do still see today. You know, the Sharks, Caps, the Iles are still very much involved in the scene, but in that time,
00:09:14
Speaker
We've seen the Montreal Canadiens' representation fall off over the last couple of years. We've seen the Tampa Bay Lightning representation fall off. And like I said, it's all kind of wrapped up into one in terms of like, okay, how did we go from that hype level
00:09:30
Speaker
to this, to where orgs have dropped out, players are retiring from the game, in air quotes, and the GWC isn't being played at a big esports arena in
Impact of Toxic Behavior on NHL Esports Growth
00:09:43
Speaker
Las Vegas. It's being played next to merchandise in a store. I don't even know how to approach, like, how did we get here?
00:09:58
Speaker
I guess the best place to start would be for you guys. Where do you feel like, like for you in terms of the peak of the e-sports scene, what kind of timestamp would you put on that? Like where did you feel we were like, Oh, okay. This, the scene's finally taking off and going places.
00:10:24
Speaker
I would probably say 2019 up until early 2022 is probably around that prime point. And I start with 2019 just because I think that that was the second year within HLGWC where people saw that first one
00:10:39
Speaker
and the success behind it. And you start to see people say, okay, this could actually work, I think, on the one side at a bigger stage in a grander scale. And that's also where we start to finally see NHL organizations on the six side of things really start to invest. That's when we saw the capitals come in around 2019, we saw the aisles come in,
00:10:59
Speaker
The Sharks come in around 2020, 2021. And I feel like at that time, it felt like NHL Esports, especially as you mentioned earlier, with the
Economic Struggles & Loss of Talent
00:11:09
Speaker
pandemic coming in, teams and organizations were starting to invest in it, and they were starting to see returns on that. And I think that the community definitely benefited from there not being actual things going on in the world. People were stuck at home playing the game, so they wanted to participate themselves or see the best of the best play the game themselves.
00:11:29
Speaker
But I just feel like since that late 2021, early 2022 period, we have seen less of a presence from a lot of these organizations. We've even seen, on the EU side, organizations drop out completely, like the SHL, which used to have a very big presence. That was one of the bigger tournaments you would find on the six-a-side in Europe. They aren't doing anything really now. We've seen a lot of organizations on the Swedish side and the Finnish side of things drop out of representing teams.
00:11:59
Speaker
And it just feels like since that 2022 point up to where we are now, there's just been a slow but steady decline. And this whole thing
Game Quality Issues & Community Division
00:12:09
Speaker
that's happened in the last, not even just this past weekend, but I think really in HL24, it feels like where we've really hit rock bottom to where you have a lot of notable players, a lot of notable organizations.
00:12:21
Speaker
pretty much distancing themselves from the community. And I think that it really did kind of start around that early 2022 point and it's gotten progressively worse, it feels like since then. Yeah, which is unfortunate because personally for me,
00:12:38
Speaker
Like in my experience as a caster, like I felt like I began to peak in 2022 because that was the first time we were able to do a live finals. And that's like, that's when I was getting really excited. But yeah, I would tend to agree. I would say like for me, definitely like leading up to and then during the pandemic, at least like the lockdown portions and maybe a little bit after that too, was really when I think we saw the height of viewership involvement
00:13:06
Speaker
And honestly, just overall chatter and hype around it. And it's crazy how quickly it's
Cycle of Decline & Potential Changes
00:13:14
Speaker
fallen off. And for me, again, it ties into the game product as well. If it's being played on that medium, that's always going to have a part of it. Tugi and I were very excited for the new direction that the franchise seemed to be taking.
00:13:29
Speaker
With that, you know, it's going to create some controversy. Some of the players and teams who had success in previous titles, especially if it's too different, they're going to probably not like it on principle because like, well, they're not going to be able to do what they used to do to find all that success. And that starts digging into their pocket and things like that. But it also went beyond that where all a lot of things we were promised weren't ever delivered on. And, you know, certain things were late, various adjustments were
00:13:58
Speaker
you know, continuing to be made to get it to a point of where, okay, well, now it's, it's very similar to a previous title, but you've kind of burned the bridge already. And so the people that you lost aren't really going to come back and see, it's a tough situation.
Balancing Casual & Competitive Development
00:14:15
Speaker
And
00:14:16
Speaker
I think sports game esports really face that dilemma of if the game changes too much from year to year, the esports will suffer. If it doesn't change enough from year to year, then your kind of baseline suffers, like of the product itself. And I know I'm kind of getting into the weeds on this discussion, but I think that all ties into the esports side of things and how that's going to be affected.
00:14:39
Speaker
it's very clear with entourage falling off and then you know their top players trying to play with another team and then just be like no i don't like the game right now i'll retire what they should really said is i'm just gonna take the rest of the year off will you know check back in next year but yeah it's we've we've really kind of felt it you know when you're when
00:15:01
Speaker
Especially, like, I mean, everyone's felt it, but casters especially, I think when you start noticing, like, either work starting to dry up when it seemed abundant at what point, and you can pick and choose what you wanted, or pay beginning to dry up. And both of those things have sort of happened on the production and caster side of things. And there's some really good talent either moving on or just stepping back. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think that's
00:15:29
Speaker
It's all of it, right? It's not a simple answer as to, okay, the state of NHL Esports, how did it go from on the rise to easily having its... I would argue it's its worst representation.
00:15:45
Speaker
But that's only because like, OK, so in the days of like NHL 15, NHL 16, the e-sports team was basically non-existent at that stage. I mean, it was outside of like an LG or something like that. But, you know, I guess some people would still argue, it's like, hey, there are there are still these tournaments where people can make money and something is better than nothing. Remember the game or saloon?
00:16:09
Speaker
Well, it's funny because, you know, at the end of the day, like it is still nice that like the GWC, for example, exists. Yeah. Right. Like it's nice that it hasn't completely gone away, even if the experience or prestige behind it has completely fallen off. Like at the end of the day, it is still a money making opportunity for the, you know, the super high end talent within the game. But
00:16:36
Speaker
Like I said, there's just there's so many different layers to this.
Maintaining Community Standards
00:16:40
Speaker
And I think back to when I saw that that picture, my initial response was it's three things that have kind of caused the bit of a fall off at this point. And those three things that I had labeled were this the pandemic for as positive
00:17:05
Speaker
as it was, I feel like it created a bubble. I feel like it created unrealistic expectations
00:17:17
Speaker
of those on the outside who all of a sudden were looking into the scene and saying, oh, here's the potential and it can only grow from here as opposed to looking at it and saying, no, that's the high end because you don't have anything else to do because people are at home. That is the level.
00:17:43
Speaker
at its best at that point in time, that with proper care you could grow into. Instead, I think whether it be certainly the NHL themselves, whether it be certain NHL teams, outside organizations, I think all of that is factored in to
00:18:11
Speaker
Again, there just being that I can only use the term bubble where I just think they they saw it as a scene that was already complete instead of a scene that was on the rise and needed that extra foundation to be built to make it sustainable long term. Another aspect to that pandemic
Past Controversies & Lasting Impacts
00:18:41
Speaker
for me is the the community itself. Every thing ever interest every hobby. You will have toxic people involved. That is just a fact because toxic people are everywhere. Will you define as toxic? That's up to you. Some people define me as toxic and that's perfectly fine. But
00:19:08
Speaker
I can only think back to the experience that I had and that I saw firsthand during the pandemic. We talked about certain organizations being scared away. In 2020, maybe it was 2020, there was an event put on in conjunction with the gaming esports org Northern Arena. Yeah.
00:19:38
Speaker
a huge opportunity for NHL Esports to be associated with Northern Arena and what that could potentially represent, especially for the future of the growth in NHL Esports within Canada. Unfortunately,
00:20:00
Speaker
Right around that time of the tournament, we're talking about, oh, what was it? June of 2020? And something happened in late May, early June of 2020. And it's kinda crazy to think about, but genuinely this was a factor.
00:20:24
Speaker
The George Floyd murder had a huge impact on NHL esports. And I know that statement in and of itself is kind of like, what the hell are you even talking about? Yeah, but wait, there's more. But wait, there's more. So this tournament, when a lot of protests were going on, the decision was made to postpone games for one night.
00:20:54
Speaker
and the fucking backlash that Northern Arena face from a good portion of people complaining about their games being delayed, I think left a long-lasting negative mark on the community. I think that made the worst impression it could have possibly made
00:21:24
Speaker
And when you're talking about the e-sports scene, if it's not the top of the top, fucking your counter strikes, your League of Legends, whatever the fuck, when you're talking like within the NHL e-sports scene circle, to make that much of a negative impression, that's gonna circle around.
Cultural Change & Community Growth
00:21:48
Speaker
That's not just gonna stay with a Northern arena being like, I don't know. No, sponsors see that.
00:21:55
Speaker
And when I say it was a negative reaction, I mean, I use the word toxic for a reason. There was vitriol. Yeah. It was gross. And it wasn't just people of the community who had games. It was people of the community who just wanted to piss and moan about it and who wanted to lash out at Black Lives Matter and continue making fun of George Floyd and whatever the hell else. And it really was the just,
00:22:26
Speaker
horrific timing for the NHL e-sports thing and obviously the event itself is horrific in and of itself and I don't think we need to expand upon that any further but it's just
00:22:38
Speaker
It was it was like a tin. It was a tinderbox in the NHL community. We've known that there's this level of toxicity and when it's a smaller community, it feels like that's brought to the forefront. Hockey in general has a very toxic reputation and a toxic fan base, perhaps more so than other sports, again, because it seems to be.
00:22:59
Speaker
a large enough portion to where it stands out more than other sports because it's not as worldwide or it's not as large. And I think that's...
00:23:13
Speaker
It's unfortunate that it happens because those people are always the loudest and that's how it goes. But there's not enough of the positive to fall back on when something like that happens because it's a it's a small growing thing. And I don't think those those people realize how much damage they do to the sport and to the sports scene when they when they did what they did.
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah, and I think just kind of to add on to that, if you don't mind, I think the biggest thing too with that that you can't really forget to leave out is that not only did a lot of players have that backlash in the way that they did it, but a lot of them did it in a chat with officials that actually were running this tournament and are communicating with a lot of these sponsors. So they're seeing this and sponsors are seeing this. And I think it kind of goes to the point to where, like you guys mentioned,
00:23:56
Speaker
This community is so small as it is. It's not a League of Legends. It's not a Call of Duty, even if you just kind of minimize that to sports. It's not a Madden community. It's not 2K. Hockey in general was a small community and the gaming portion of that community cuts that to less than half. So the room for error is that much slimmer. And if as a community, the community doesn't take itself seriously,
00:24:20
Speaker
How can you expect people with money behind this, reputations, and brands to protect to take it seriously as well? That specific event, just considering all of the context behind it, some of the things that were said, that felt like it really set back the potential of the community to grow further than what it has because of the context behind it and just what we are as a community just because it is so small and the room for error.
00:24:49
Speaker
It's so, so much slimmer than it would be for a normal esports situation. I think you guys pretty much nailed it, right? It's not that other communities don't have their toxic members. We already mentioned that. Everything does. The smaller the community, though, the more those voices are going to stand out. And the Northern Arena situation
00:25:16
Speaker
wasn't the start of the toxicity. This had been there.
Optimism for NHL Esports Recovery
00:25:20
Speaker
This had been festering. It's just a magnifying glass. Exactly. Let's be honest here. Now, none of us currently are affiliated with League Gaming in any way. But let's be honest here. Even dating back to when I took part in the League NHL 13 or 14 and had a legitimate 13-year-old general manager, which is why I stopped playing.
00:25:45
Speaker
The chat box within LG has had its reputation as the most toxic, cringe, 14-year-olds trying to be edgy, even though you know some of them aren't 14, they're 30 or fucking older, that had its reputation, earned its reputation years before the GWC was the thing, before the Northern Arena tournament was the thing,
00:26:14
Speaker
And I don't... I'm not gonna sit here and say they had a responsibility to snuff it out because I don't know if they would have been able to. Because at the end of the day, it's very difficult to fully do that. But at the same time, I don't think enough was done within the community itself to self-police. And by the time that self-policing was necessary, it wasn't already there.
00:26:40
Speaker
And people fucked up at the wrong time and fucked around at the wrong time. And it was incredibly costly. On the topic of self-policing, I'm going to shout out the Super Smash Brothers community who has done an excellent job of self-policing.
Learning from Successful Esports
00:26:55
Speaker
Another one whose community has probably shrunk over the years in way of other esports, but it still has a huge, huge, well, at least bigger than NHL. There's still a lot of following.
00:27:04
Speaker
But Super Smash, starting with the players all the way down to tournament runners at this point, are shutting out competitors and players and members of the community from participating in tournaments and anything else like that who have shown to be racist, homophobic, transphobic, and other ways just hateful individuals. And I think that's absolutely huge. And that's what needs to be done. You have to snuff it out and just say, OK, you want to be like that. You don't get to play.
00:27:30
Speaker
And for NHL, like things like LG, I think they were they're caught in such a position. Number one, maybe they didn't do the right thing because they're afraid to lose the membership. They're afraid to be seen as quote unquote soft. This goes back to hockey culture in general. And and, you know, they're caught in a no win situation where you almost have to allow them because that's it seems to be that's your baseline. That's your customer base. And that is just not a good look. And
00:28:01
Speaker
because it all comes back to the community being small and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Okay, why is the community small? Well, hockey is not really that well known or that well liked. Okay, why is hockey not that well known or that well liked? Old ass bad mentalities and bad cultures that refuse to change with the times and
00:28:23
Speaker
And so you feel like you have to cater these individuals. And this goes all the way to the NHL. You feel like you have to cater to these individuals because you don't have enough of a base. And the reason you can't attract more base and more people is because you're having these people at the forefront. And they are like it or not, like who represent your sports at times. And it sucks.
00:28:50
Speaker
I think you could even go beyond just like things that people physically say, whether it's in a Shopbox or a DM. I mean, we've seen firsthand stories, especially on the NA side. I can't speak for the EU side because I don't play there, but we've seen firsthand stories of players getting docked and DDoS and like
00:29:08
Speaker
things that genuinely go beyond just the game. Like we've seen people hit home personally, to an extent. I mean, even going back to the story that's similar to the Northern Arena one, I remember during the Sharks tournament a few years ago, during the final, Olympia's goalie kept getting kicked out of his internet by someone else in the community. During a final that San Jose had their actual broadcasters, they're broadcasting. And it's just another example of how the community
00:29:38
Speaker
can't expect to be taken seriously if it doesn't take itself seriously. Like, yes, is it a bad look to see Anaduwa having to do a report on the NHL GWC in front of something that literally looks like Tukey set up right now?
00:29:53
Speaker
Yes, but is it also a horrible look to have professional broadcasters and a professional setup and we can't even start the games because someone thinks they're funny by D dossing someone off of their internet where we can't even start the series? Yes, like as much as it is a problem where things are
00:30:10
Speaker
from a game standpoint, from the investment that we're seeing from leagues or organizations, there's also a lot of self-searching. I think the community has to do to where it says, yes, these scenarios aren't great, but how can the community put itself in the best position to get opportunities? And I just don't know that we can look at the community right now and say that it's really done itself enough service or due diligence, I guess you could say, to say, yes, people should come in and invest in this.
00:30:40
Speaker
At least not right now. I think, Sin, you nailed it a few minutes ago when you talked about the setup of not having enough people so you cater to the wrong people. Of the the hockey culture aspects being the outdated dude bro bullshit
00:31:07
Speaker
But at the same time, what's the number one hockey podcast out there? Jiggles. And they personify that dude bro mentality. It's it's just interesting to look at in terms of that whole situation. And again, I want to reiterate, like the Northern Arena toxicity
Unified Direction & Development Challenges
00:31:29
Speaker
that we're talking about here wasn't the
00:31:35
Speaker
the first instance, like it was a symptom of a larger problem that is still ongoing. The thing about that is that it surprised no one. And I think that's important to note, that it surprised no one, but we're pissed that it happened because you fucking idiots, you couldn't have chosen a worse time to be an absolute prick about things. So in the aftermath of that,
00:32:00
Speaker
You know, we talk about the pandemic creating a bit of a bubble, where organizations, NHL teams were looking at this as, oh shit, this is what it could be. And then when it's not immediately at its peak, they start getting cold feet, if not immediately kind of bow out of things.
00:32:23
Speaker
You talk about the toxicity as well. So it's not just because like you mentioned, it's a numbers game like with LG. Hey, we have the biggest user base. That's all people care about at the end of the day, right? When it comes to sponsors, orgs, whatever, it's all about the numbers. So LG was incentivized to not please as hard as they could have.
00:32:45
Speaker
because it was beneficial to them. I don't necessarily blame them for that. That's just the way fucking business works in the culture that we have. It is what it is. But you look at all of this, the pandemic bubble, as I'll deem it, the toxicity of the community, and then you get to the video game itself and
00:33:10
Speaker
you know, in talking about what the NHL series has been over the last however long. Right now, if we're talking, if we're talking NHL 18, excuse me, it'd be NHL 19. 2018 was the first year of the GWC. If we're talking NHL 19,
00:33:34
Speaker
It's not the end all be all but the average Metacritic rating for NHL 19 is an 80 From my reviewer score. It's a 5.3 for a user score You look at NHL 20 and you see where I'm going with this. I'm sure NHL 20 Critics score 70
00:34:04
Speaker
User score, 3.9. NHL 21. Critic score, 72. User score, 2.4. NHL 22. Critic score, 71. User score, 4.6. Bit of a bounce back here. NHL 22. I think that was defensive skill stick here, wasn't it?
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I'd fuck. Yeah. NHL 23 critics score 71 users score 3.0.
Influence of Community Feedback on Development
00:34:44
Speaker
This year, critics score 71 users score 3.3 for NHL 24. Better than I was expecting, considering what we've seen. In fact, 91 reviews on that. So again, it's not the biggest sample size or anything like that. It's just going off a Metacritic.
00:35:05
Speaker
However, so you factor in all of this, the pandemic bubble, the toxicity, the effect that's having on what the viability of the scene is being viewed as or how it's being viewed.
00:35:22
Speaker
And then you have the game itself, excuse me, taking a very, um, this fucking COVID cough, man, I can't shake it, just out of nowhere it'll just like catch and I fucking lose my breath and it sucks for someone who's known for being long-winded. At the same time all of that's going on, you have at the very least a perceived
00:35:44
Speaker
dip in quality. Whether or not it's true or not, I think depends on the individual. Optics are everything when it comes to a business. I mean, optics are everything. So you have these organizations looking at the numbers, not being what they thought they were going to be. Looking at having to deal with the more toxic aspects of the culture.
Future of NHL Esports
00:36:11
Speaker
and then you have the game quality dipping all at the same time to the point where you have some of the better competitors who are stepping away. Numbers aren't what they looked like they were gonna be. Toxic community, skill level within the community falling.
00:36:35
Speaker
No shit. NHL 24 and the state of the esports scene for that game are in a reduced state compared to what people were hoping and thinking the community could be six years on from the first GWC. It's a perfect storm. In terms of what it means moving forward, man, I don't know.
00:37:01
Speaker
Because as Sin mentioned, you're caught in the cycle within the community itself. The video game itself is stuck in that cycle of who the hell do they focus on? Because it's very evident in terms of the development time that they have on a year to year title. They're just not going to be able to fully address
00:37:29
Speaker
the concerns and wants and desires of the competitive scene and the casual side at the same time. They're not going to take that approach of let's have this be an esports focused year because that's not their directive.
00:37:49
Speaker
at least we can presume. The directive is to try and hit on all fronts, but you can't fully hit on all fronts because you don't have the fucking time. You don't have the resources.
1v1 vs Team Play in NHL Esports
00:38:00
Speaker
Like no shit, the NHL team doesn't have the resources. Madden isn't accomplishing that goal of making everybody happy. And while I don't need exact numbers to know that Madden gets way more resources in terms of time, people, money.
00:38:18
Speaker
Same thing for FIFA or FC now at this point where you know, that community isn't fully happy either. So no shit, NHL is in the state that it's in and it just leads you to the point where it's like, okay, how, how does the e-sports scene bounce back when you already have questions of how does the video game itself bounce back?
00:38:48
Speaker
think we've kind of seen where even though the game might not be in a great state can you remember at all really from NHL 18 up to this point to where the collective eSports community was like yep this is a good game I can't remember one year I think that
00:39:03
Speaker
As a whole, the community, even though it's not going to necessarily love the game, they'll find it playable because they want to play competitively. It's just that for whatever reasons you may cite, NHL 24 specifically this year, players do not seem to want to play it. And I do think that maybe a lot of the wholesale changes to this year might have something to do with that. Some people love them, some people don't. This game plays drastically differently from any of the games from the past 10 years.
00:39:29
Speaker
But it's interesting because it just seems like even though by year, the games themselves may not be seen as great, they may not be seen as quality. And there's a lot of reasons to that, like you just mentioned to me. But in the past up until this year, it didn't seem to have that same correlation with how many people participated.
00:39:48
Speaker
or how much investment esports had. It's a very tricky thing because it feels like this year, more than past years, the game has really taken a toll more on the high-end players because you have guys like Entourage that just said, I don't want to play the game.
00:40:05
Speaker
I don't want to spend nine months grinding the game. I'll retire and probably come back in a year or two. We didn't see it to the same extent. It feels like a few years ago, even though we saw it a little bit. It feels like this year on both ones and sixes, it's been a mass exodus more than the years prior. Yeah, and I wanted to kind of bring up the state of the game and the state of the community when it comes to gameplay. It's that.
00:40:35
Speaker
The community, I think, needs to decide what it wants and be honest about what they want because no matter what, it's the game's trash. So they went in a completely different direction.
00:40:48
Speaker
which should, you know, create, I was hyped about it. I'm not going to lie. I think implementation could have been much better. But I think a lot of the changes were really good. The pressure system being one of them, because from a viewership, from an outside viewership standpoint, if you're watching a sixes game where the two teams are trapping and collapsing the whole game,
00:41:11
Speaker
that's not necessarily appealing to someone who's just trying to get into it. It might be appealing to someone familiar with the competitive scene, but I thought the pressure system would add a hell of a lot more excitement. And I, early on into the season 2G, when it was, it had been tweaked enough to where I think it was in a really good spot. We had some exciting conclusions to periods, to games, exciting shifts.
00:41:34
Speaker
And the more it went on, the more they kept tuning it back to NHL 23, because that's essentially what they did. They tuned the pressure system to a point where it was a non-factor in competitive games, where people could just play the way they played in NHL 23. And then it went back to, I don't know what I'm going to get from this cast. These two teams, it could just be boring.
00:41:54
Speaker
And so I think the community, you clearly don't want a realistic hockey game because the pressure system, despite what idiots were saying, is realistic. You get tired defending. The attacking team doesn't get as tired. They're able, you know, and they're able to tire out the goalie and stuff like that. So, okay, you don't want that. You want more of an RKD simulation, but then you also piss and moan about how it's not realistic.
00:42:21
Speaker
So at that point, EA has to kind of just throw up their hands. We don't know. We tried something new. Everyone hated it. They don't have the luxury to tell that portion, fuck you, this is the direction we're going. Because again, hearkens back to the LG thing. This is your base. It feels like this is your base. And you cannot afford that level of exodus, essentially.
00:42:48
Speaker
Yeah, it really sucks. And I think there's a big...
00:42:52
Speaker
perhaps a big kind of gap between what a more casual person enjoys, like me, like I'm competitive, but I'm not a competitive player, because I'm simply not good enough. I love the pressure system, because it reminded me of what I like about hockey, is that you work hard, you forecheck, you force turnovers, you get rewarded. And it's not just a skill of you, it's a team-based thing. And I think the NHL has, in the community, wants a,
00:43:22
Speaker
a situation where you can 1v5 or you can just dominate based on pure skill. And that's simply not always the case in hockey. But if you want that to be the case in esports, then be honest about that.
Potential of Team-Based Esports
00:43:34
Speaker
Say you don't want a hockey simulation, you want a hockey arcade video game. Yes, because we don't have it. It is an arcade style game. Like, if you want the ability
00:43:48
Speaker
to like you said 1v5 the other team and just have this crazy fucking highlight reel or to be able to have it replicate um it's unlikely but in counter strike you know big time tournaments there are people who can survive a 1v3 and 1v4 or whatever the fuck and be the hero if that is what you want then yeah
00:44:13
Speaker
It's just funny because all of this, right? All of this wraps up into like, Jesus Christ, what the hell is this game gonna be? What the hell is the esports scene going to be? There's so many different aspects of it that are all wrapped up into one. What does the NHL want at this point? What do they want the GWC to be? As it is, the NHL doesn't know what they want their own fucking league to be. We talk about that on a weekly basis here, Sin.
00:44:42
Speaker
The community doesn't know what the fuck they want. So how the hell would EA know what the hell to deliver? And even then, there's still an aspect of it's what EA wants, which what do they want? And how does that change based off of what they hear from the game changer design council, whatever the fuck who act as conduits within the community, the community that doesn't know what the fuck they want.
00:45:12
Speaker
between also taking feedback from casual game testers and stuff like that, because EA does that as well. It's not just, no sleeve said this, so this is what Ultimate Team is now. It's not how it works. We can suggest things. We have, I can only speak for me. Do I know for a fact if roster sharing would have been in the game?
00:45:37
Speaker
The community not pushed a franchise creator like me to say, keep pushing for roster sharing? I don't know. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. But I'd like to think that people saying, hey, keep pushing for roster sharing actively helped. And maybe I'm foolish for that. I don't know. But that was an example of the community knowing what the hell they wanted. I feel like from an offline standpoint, it's a hell of a lot easier.
00:46:02
Speaker
as opposed to gameplay because you're never going to have agreeing opinions on gameplay and it just creates this mess. Another thing I wanted to bring up and I think the GWC continues to be wrong for this is to focus on 1v1. Hockey has always and will always be a team sport if you want to draw people who are fans of the sport and not just fans of the video game. It has to be the team element.
00:46:25
Speaker
Watching sixes is always going to be better than watching a one of you one because the goals while there are some similar goals and there's higher quality chances, they come in a lot of different ways. Whereas in one of you one, it's all about exploiting the AI, exploiting the goalies and exploiting it. It really is. And yeah, it's a video game. There's always going to be that. But sixes tones down on that because your opponent will not act in a predictable way.
00:46:54
Speaker
like an AI does. And I think, and I've been screaming about this since 2018 and 2019, like GWC needs to have sixes. Sixes is the future of NHL e-sports. And I understand one V one's probably easier and more cheaper for sure. But six, if you're actually, if you actually want a long-term sustained success,
00:47:22
Speaker
then it has to be a team game. Because those are, you know, it's a team sport number one. And team-based esports are all are much bigger. Like League of Legends, Call of Duty. It's not just a 1v1 Call of Duty. It's not just 1v1 on Halo. The only way 1v1 would work is Starcraft because it's an RTS. It's a completely different style. But yeah, it's...
00:47:49
Speaker
I think that's the biggest mistake that was always going to plague NHL is that they focus too much. At least the largest tournament focuses too much on 1v1, whereas six is a better way to market the competitive side of things. Because if you want to mirror hockey, that's the way to do it. And let's face it, that's what the eSport is existing to do. That's what the game is existing to do in some way to mirror hockey.
00:48:14
Speaker
I feel like that's the number one complaint, too, that you see from people that don't really compete competitively, but watch things like the GWC casually. Like, when you go to a post any other year when they announce the GWC winner or they advertise it, people that don't typically pay attention just sort of saying, oh, it's just the same person scoring the same two goals and abusing the computer. And, you know, I get it logistically. It probably is a lot easier to do a 1v1 tournament. I know it's probably not cheap to fly out
00:48:43
Speaker
two to four teams. That's what 12 to 24 people that you have to pay flights and hotels for. And I get all that.
00:48:51
Speaker
but at the same time, I think that just the overall product, people outside of our current community can invest in that more easier than they would be able to a one-v-one because it's just one person controlling one person than the rest are AI compared to something like six is to where you have six different people to where all of them are going to have to be mentally locked in, mistakes can be made from human error and other humans are the ones that have to capitalize on them. It's not just,
00:49:20
Speaker
continuing to have to oh well I know the AI goalie doesn't make saves from this specific spot or oh if I hold the puck behind the net long enough the AI defender is going to cheat and I can just go and give it across to that for a cross crease like you don't have those same elements that one v one because things are so trained from AI there's not that same mental battle that you see in sixes and I think it's going to be easier for casual viewers that maybe you're not like us or not as invested
00:49:48
Speaker
to invest themselves in that and be entertained by that.
AI Exploitation & Tournament Improvements
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah. You know, to your point about the 1v1 game, like... I don't know how impressed... For someone who knows the game, right? Like, for example, Sin and I, June of 2023, were in Helsinki. We covered the sports gamer Elite Six's final and the 1v1 final.
00:50:12
Speaker
The sexist final was entertaining in and of itself, but the 1v1 final was captivating because you had a player in Tempenan who he could see the zeros and ones in real time.
00:50:27
Speaker
Like he, I have never seen somebody control and dictate the gameplay the way that he did in this 1v1 final. And it was just pure domination about the semi-finals and the outside. He was getting five plus goals game. And it was. Yeah, I was I was meaning to bring up them because it was you and I were just awestruck by the sheer level that he was able to.
00:50:57
Speaker
And it's not to take it away, but it is exploiting the system. The way he was scoring the goals, he knows how goals are going to go in. He's practiced this. He's an extremely technical player. And that's who succeeds in those 1v1s against AIs as the ones who understand how the game works down to, like you said, the zeros and ones. Just understands the programming so much that
00:51:22
Speaker
He was just above and beyond anyone else. I've never seen that lopsided of a performance anywhere. And in terms of the marketability side of things, what's better to market? The 6v6 side of things, or, oh, here's Tempinin, who can control the game better than anybody else, and knows, has mastered the exploits.
00:51:51
Speaker
and knows what movements are going to cause what reactions from poor AI and so on and so forth. Obviously from our perspective as people who have called, the majority of our games that we've called have been sixes. We all have experience calling the 1v1 side of things as well. It is that sixes aspect.
00:52:11
Speaker
It's the fact that, you know, on each team you have six different personalities, the actions of six different people, really 12 different people in unison are going to make a difference on the game. I mean, we could sit here and the narratives are better, too. Yeah, the stories are better. There's the histories are better.
00:52:31
Speaker
when you're talking about people changing teams, revenge matches. There's so much more potential in sixes, but it's that short-sightedness of NHL and the esports scene in general is that, well, this is the cheapest, this makes the most money right now. And they're not looking at the big picture. They're not looking at what could be, they're looking at what is. And that is the biggest problem when it comes to the NHL and by extension, the esports side of it.
Transition to Team Elements in Esports
00:53:00
Speaker
The problem is, in terms of this whole conversation, we're not going to find the solution today. Unfortunately not, no. We're just not. That's the real frustrating aspect of it, is that at the end of the day, it would be so great to be like, OK, here's the solution. But as we've discussed, it's such a multi-layered issue that there is no, OK, this one quick fix, and the whole thing is fine.
00:53:30
Speaker
all of it is dependent on all of the different factors that we've talked about at this stage and you know it sucks right it sucks like when sin and i started at sports gamer four or five years ago longer longer yeah yeah because 20 april of 2019
00:53:54
Speaker
is when Sin and I were already friends at that point for a year or so, and we had been talking about wanting to get into esports commentary, and it's like, well, do we hit up LG? Hold on. Do we hit up... I know exactly when we started, because I have the DM, but continue.
00:54:09
Speaker
There you go. It's like, do we go the LG route? Do we go the sports gamer route? And in April of 2019, that was the first time that I got invited out to Vancouver. And Kenu, who is behind sports gamer, was also there. I planned on talking to him anyway. Coincidentally, we ended up on the same floor of the hotel that EA put us up in. So we spent just so much time kind of talking about things.
00:54:33
Speaker
And, well Brody, who's one of the main heads behind LG, was also there. You know, we had our conversation and that's fine. We didn't get that same level of talking point and it was that time with Ken where I'm just like, okay, I think this is the direction that we go.
00:54:54
Speaker
which I still think was probably the best decision for Sin and I because otherwise we would have ended up in a head-to-head situation with no sleeves and gris with no guarantees of who would have been the ones in those spots and
00:55:07
Speaker
You know, admittedly, there have been times where I'm like, eh, it would have been cool to have that experience. But at the same time, I'm happy for both sleeves and gris to have gotten the experiences that they have earned and deserve. And I'm happy that those have been there for them. And I'm very fortunate. To put it this way, sin is certainly not going to say, no, we should have gone the other direction because, I mean, Jesus Christ, here we are five years later. And you're on the verge of potentially moving to Finland.
00:55:35
Speaker
Uh, you have another over there at this point starting with family. Yeah, like i'm like I you know, I I get to take you know, my now wife over there as a result of this like we're perfectly fine like Yeah, you know we can joke like yeah, we don't exactly regret missing out on a uh, you know a nhl shop experience over the weekend, uh, but there are other really really cool things that the likes of sleeves and gris have gotten to do so From that aspect it's
Optimism & Strategic Shifts
00:56:01
Speaker
worked out. Well across the board um
00:56:05
Speaker
It's just that kind of thought of like, just don't want those experiences to go away. Yeah. And I can't speak for Slaves and Grizz at this point in terms of what their thoughts are on like, oh shit, what's the future of this? I would imagine they feel similar in some regards.
00:56:30
Speaker
in terms of like they can see what the situations are right now and want it to be better. And that's, I think, what we all want is for it to be better. And you found that text, though. I did. I started talking to Kenu in September of 2018 when he put out a tweet looking for casters for sports game over here in contact. You and I didn't start casting it until 2019, though. So it was after that Vancouver trip, so.
00:56:54
Speaker
Yes, yes. And that's how I found out you would also talk to him because it was after the Vancouver trip. And then you were like, yeah, I'm going to be casting for sports game. I'm like, oh my god, me too. We're casting together. So it was 2019. But yeah, at this point, it is now March. I think our first ones were around the springtime. And we casted both. I think we'd actually just started with
00:57:17
Speaker
and then transitioned to EU later. I think our first casting job was NA, but yeah, it was 2019. So at this point has now officially been five years, which is nuts. And it's crazy because it's one of those things. That's half a decade. Fuck yeah. It's one of those things for me, right? Where it's like,
00:57:39
Speaker
I've talked to like, it's you about this, I've talked to my wife about this and everything and other friends where it's like, from my perspective on like the content creation front with Twitch and YouTube, man, if it ends tomorrow, I don't regret the time investment at all. Like there's been some great opportunities out of this. I've made some great friends out of this and everything like that.
00:58:00
Speaker
Just the fact it's like, okay, based off of where I could have been versus what I'm doing here, like, yeah, no, I'll choose being able to sit here and shoot the shit with people like you guys for an hour over whatever the hell it could have been. So it's still worth it, but at the same time, it's one of those things where, number one, you still don't want it to end.
00:58:23
Speaker
And you can still, especially from the esports side of things, you can still see the potential of where this could go. And for me, it's not even a matter of, like, I want to make sure it's me. It'd be nice if it was me. It'd be nice if it was Sin. It'd be nice if it was Major. Like, we talked about this, like, that world final in February 2023, the only, you know, the two key people that were missing,
00:58:49
Speaker
We're Brandon and our buddy Nick, F5 Penguin, in terms of the people where it's like, ah shit, it's like, the group almost doesn't, it doesn't feel complete at that stage. And it's one of those things where it's like, shit, now in the future, we want that type of event to happen again. And for everybody to be able to be involved in that.
Community's Role in Success
00:59:10
Speaker
And obviously when you're talking about uncertainty from the NHL's own production,
00:59:18
Speaker
You know there are uncertainties with an LG, there are uncertainties with the sports gamer, with a sharks gaming, a ducks gaming, aisles, caps, like there's going to be that uncertainty because again, the path doesn't look as clear as it once did and it's just
00:59:37
Speaker
It's tough when you can see the potential of things and you know the hard work that's been put into things. I know the three of us especially will stand by the work that we've done with Sports Gamer and we'll put it up against anybody.
00:59:55
Speaker
I think particularly the final that we just put on for Sports Gamer last month, where you had Senn and I on commentary, Major did a lot of the interviews to spice things up and just add to that production even further. Next still, he owed the hype videos. Genuinely, it's like, here comes the self-congratulatory pass on the back here, but it's like the work that we put out
01:00:25
Speaker
It's just you hope that it leads to furthering the scene. And that was the point of, you know, sports gamers fucking swinging for the fences shot of that world final, which, you know, our buddy Justin Crease police put out a tweet around the time the whole G.W.C. thing was being discussed, essentially saying like the standard with images
01:00:55
Speaker
from the world final. And yeah, like the fact that you still have an independence source being the ones to essentially push to set the standard. It's frustrating. You hear the three letters NHL and you expect a certain quality. And when they're not putting that on,
01:01:24
Speaker
How do other people put that on? It's a tough call, but... Gentlemen, is there anything else in regards to this? Because again, as I've mentioned, it's such a multi-layered topic. Anything else that comes to mind?
01:01:40
Speaker
I don't think that this is, I will say like, I don't think that just to be clear, I don't think this is like a, Oh, this is the end of NHL e-sports. It's never going to go. I don't think it's that. I mean, I do think that at a rough patch, 100%, no one can even come close to denying it. But I do think that
01:01:59
Speaker
at the bare minimum. I mean, let's just use that final a month ago as an example. I mean, the level of quality in production, everything behind that, it's important to remember for those that don't know that entire thing was done remotely. That was not in a land. That wasn't in anything like that. Some of the better productions we've seen have been done
01:02:16
Speaker
remotely. So in terms of being able to put on good tournaments and being able to get events that are high quality and that players and sponsors and organizations want to invest in is still plenty there. I think it's just a matter of
01:02:31
Speaker
on all four or five pillars that are causing this problem whether it be game leagues orgs communities doing that soul search me saying okay what needs to be done and how do we go about fixing it and then actually putting in that action to fix it because i still think that this community in NHL e-sports as a whole
01:02:52
Speaker
still does have that potential to be something great. Will it fill out a 20,000-seat arena by any stretch? No, probably not. It probably won't ever do that. But at the same time, I still think that we can, at the very least, get back to where we were a few years ago. We were like, okay, this actually has legitimacy and a future towards it beyond just now.
01:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, world finals like we had in that assembly arena at the height of the people sitting in those chairs, that was 150 to 200 people like and that's pretty good when there's other games going on at the same time in a country with a population of six million. Like just imagine if, you know, we're able to get that little bit more, you know, we just just take it in baby steps, you know, and we were we were maybe gifted something a little bit too big at the wrong time during the pandemic where the viewership numbers on Twitch were huge and then
01:03:45
Speaker
that people started to kind of expect that, but it's still a growing thing. So it's the perception of, are we in a rough patch or did we just have a peak when we weren't quite ready for
Maturity & Growth in Esports
01:03:57
Speaker
it? And I think that's an interesting thing to consider as well. I think that's a fair way to label it, is that the scene tried to grow too fast.
01:04:10
Speaker
And now we're seeing like, oh shit, this ceiling is a lot shorter at the moment than we thought it was. And we don't quite have the boost to break through it. I think the fear though, is that again, like people know that the potential is there.
01:04:32
Speaker
The only question is whether or not the important factors that can really make a difference and propel this to where it needs to be. I think the fear is like, have those factors been permanently scared away? And you obviously have to hope that that isn't the case, but
01:04:54
Speaker
with how small the scene is to begin with, I think it is a factor, right? Of just like, oh, shit, like. I think maybe some companies and some things, but as you know, going back to the major's point, if everyone needs a soul search community needs to decide, it's like if they want this to work, then show that you've matured and grown as competitors and as people. And then you will be able to attract back some new ones. Some are gone forever, but there's others who I'm sure want that opportunity to dip their feet back in.
01:05:23
Speaker
In northern rain is a Canadian based thing. Hockey is still the biggest thing in Canada. You can get back some people, but take it as a learning experience. Yeah, for sure. Obviously, you know, we're all intrigued to see how it plays out from there.
01:05:43
Speaker
It's one of those conversations, especially where it's always going to feel like, oh, God, there's something we're forgetting, isn't there? Do we have viewer questions to end on a high note? We do. We do have some viewer questions here, if you guys care to partake. Absolutely. Happily. All right, cool. This first one comes from AJ. It feels like a personal shot at me. What do each of you do to stay in shape? Not enough, AJ. Not enough.
01:06:13
Speaker
I'm in college, so I have to constantly walk around campus. That's pretty much the extent that we go to. A lot of walking typically day to day. You're also young and have good metabolism, you dick.
01:06:27
Speaker
I'm turning 23 in July, so I've only got a few more prime years left. Jesus. I'm 10 years, 10 years older than him. For me, I have to do a lot more. I go to the gym a few times a week and I take days, use days that I'm not in the gym. I'll go for like an hour long walk and I'm still a little chubby. But I also like fucking food, so. Your hair. Yeah.
01:06:55
Speaker
So for me, it's funny because this kind of ties into another question that we have. So let's like wait to that here in a second. But it ties in terms of how it ties in. I like being active.
01:07:16
Speaker
Whether it's something as simple as taking the dog for a walk, I live in Maine, it's a very outdoorsy state. I like to take advantage of getting outside, hiking trails, stuff like that, when the season calls for it. In our experiences in Finland, Sin and I have gotten to play a lot of floor ball, floor hockey, let's be honest. And if I had the ability to play that two to three times a week, I 100% would, that would be great.
01:07:44
Speaker
However, that second question comes from a bouncy. What's something about your job that realistically is super insignificant and it really grinds your gears? He gives an example as he drives a Zamboni driver and mentions that people are very selfish.
01:08:03
Speaker
Like the worst aspect of this job that isn't necessarily insignificant, but just to kind of spin that off, it's just that idea of like as a content creator, it is 100% about the grind. As much as people don't like to be like, oh, it's not about the grind, it's okay to take time off. Like 100%, that's what it's about. It is very difficult to take that time, that personal time,
01:08:28
Speaker
and be able to the work-life balance. It's very difficult because you work from home. That work PC is always right there. It's like, OK, what are we doing right now? OK, my my wife's going out with friends. What the hell am I going to do? Am I going to take that personal time to
01:08:46
Speaker
to walk the dog, am I gonna do this, am I gonna do that? It's like, well, I can render out these videos, I can schedule this, I can do this, I can do that. That's easily the worst part about this, is to make sure that you take that personal time.
01:09:05
Speaker
and properly take care of yourself, essentially. Like, yeah, I'll be the first person to always just be like, yeah, no, I know, I know. I'm bigger than I want to be. I've always been a bigger guy. I was a bigger kid. At least you're tall. Anyway, like I was, yeah, I was 6'2 in eighth grade, you know, and kind of capped out there. I think I've grown, I'm about 6'3 now. So I mean, I've only grown an inch since I was 14 years old, but
01:09:32
Speaker
You know, it's just one of those things. Sorry to cut you off. Did you fucking go through puberty hella early? Like, are you one of those guys in seventh grade who was fucking shaving already? I knew a guy like that who had a deep ass voice and was shaving in seventh grade and I'm like, I got, I got the deeper voice early. I didn't get, again, I didn't get the fucking facial hair genetics though. It's all fucking that beard. So, but yeah, at the same, yeah, generally it was one of the, uh,
01:10:03
Speaker
the early height things. And the problem was, I wasn't even the tallest kid in my fucking class. There was another kid that was six, four. Jesus fucking. So the question was about what about your job grinds your gears. So what's something about your job that's insignificant, yet it grinds your gears? I took it to not be a super insignificant part, but to just kind of transition that from one question to another in terms of the whole staying in shape question.
01:10:33
Speaker
So I will say sin for you especially. I have to decide what my job is. I do like three different things. Yeah, that's fair, right? And it could be something insignificant, or it could be something significant. Why not? We're always down to change the question. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like when it comes to the stock trading in particular, everything feels significant. The things that, yeah, like on days, days where just the market's flat.
01:11:03
Speaker
It feels like a mis-stop. You get pissed because on the way I trade, it's just like those days don't help me. I'm not an investor. I'm not like, okay, cool, consolidating. I'm just holding. It's like, no, I need it to move up and down so I can make money either up or down. It's a day off, but the way I...
01:11:23
Speaker
trade the market is that like, you know, I want that volatility. I need that volatility. And sometimes there just isn't that. And it can be for long periods of time. Sometimes it's a slow melt up, which is you can you can trade off that. And I do things to kind of capitalize on that. But yeah, it's like a day like today, the market was just freaking completely flat fluctuations like 20 to 30 cents on the spy ETF. And I'm like, I can't do anything with this. Yeah.
01:11:53
Speaker
It's kind of similar though. Brian, I'll throw to you in a second. It's kind of similar, right? Like a flat day of just not much happening is okay. But it feels like it's horrible. Like for me, just scheduling out a video, whatever the hell, skip the stream, whatever. It's like, I didn't do enough. Some comparisons there. Major, what were you gonna say?
01:12:20
Speaker
So since I don't work full-time and I'm a full-time student, I'm going to answer this from more of a student's perspective. And I think the number one thing for me to come to mind is that as a college student, especially as you hit that third or fourth year and you get closer to graduating, it begins to feel more and more like you're doing
01:12:39
Speaker
a ton of things that you don't need for something that you do. And what I mean by that for those that are not getting my gist is that you have to take a lot of classes and fulfill a lot of requirements and do a lot of different assignments that will not matter to you once the semester is over, but you have to do them to get to that end goal of actually graduating.
01:13:00
Speaker
And for some people, that's not needed. Not every job or aspiration requires you to go to a two or four year school. Everyone's path is different. But like for me, I want to go into broadcasting professionally. So I kind of have to give myself every advantage I can if I want to do that and a part of that.
01:13:16
Speaker
is getting a degree just because of connections and job searches and things like that. So it just kind of feels like the older you get and the longer you are in school, the more classes you have to take that you probably are going to look back and be like, huh, I really didn't even learn the Pythagorean theorem, but it gave me a lot of hell for a good four months. So that's probably the number one thing. So I think probably most students would probably lean towards that. But
01:13:41
Speaker
I'm you know, I don't I don't I don't I just got to say how stoked I am that you know what the fuck you want to do at age 22. That is huge. And a lot of people, myself, including did not have that luxury. I had an idea of what I wanted to do and that and that was a very low percentage idea. And clearly it didn't work out as I am not a rock star.
01:14:07
Speaker
Rockstar of a different kind or even a professional musician. I just play it play for fun now But yeah, that's awesome, man. I wish you the best of luck too. Thanks Matt. Appreciate that for sure
01:14:16
Speaker
It's just funny because when you said that question, I really got to thinking about it and I was like, you know, that probably is the number one thing because I definitely feel like every time I get up in the morning and I go to school, five of the classes I'm taking out of six of them, I mean, it's like, am I going to use this in a year? They're just getting that sweet, sweet tuition money off you. Yeah, that's a lot of it.
01:14:38
Speaker
People forget universities and colleges are businesses first. Yes, they're education-based businesses. Which is very silly. Businesses first. You can take six classes and four of them will have nothing to do with what you want to do. Yeah. That's what screwed a family member of mine out of a college degree.
01:14:56
Speaker
of for criminal justice, but they needed to take this advanced algebra course and just couldn't do it. They just couldn't do it. Their brain isn't wired to do like that type of mathematics. And it's one of those things where it's like, oh, cool. So because there's this aspect that has nothing to do with what I'm going to be doing,
01:15:19
Speaker
That kind of screws you up. We could, that's a whole nother hour long discussion of the education system in America, isn't it? We'll have Major back on for that one too. We'll just start out the podcast with playing the education connection commercial from like the late 2000s. Oh my God. Or that one of that dude standing under a streetlight yelling at you for not getting off your couch and going to college. Oh God, I forgot about that one.
01:15:47
Speaker
Well, to really introduce our friend here to the joys of this podcast and the random questions we get, our next one comes from Scoopy. I've been reading my kids the Animorphs book series and it made me think, if you were an Animorph, what would your battle animal of choice be? Mine would be a saltwater crocodile.
01:16:08
Speaker
That's- Dude, I love the Animorphs when I was- I was gonna say, I'm curious what that series anybody? Fuckin' loved it. I don't even know if they're still making- Did you ever read- I know it's not really your time, B Major. Did you ever read the Animorphs book? I did not. That was a little bit before me. That was like, what, mid-late 90s?
01:16:26
Speaker
Yes, my childhood. Yeah, you were not born. You will not. Just keep keep fucking stabbing me in the back. Yeah. Keep driving that knife in deeper there, buddy. Yeah. So my battle animal of choice would be a bangle tiger because they can kick a lion's ass in a fight. They can kill crocodiles if they want to. So I'm killing you, scruppy noopers. Just saying. Oh, man, I
01:16:55
Speaker
So in terms of this book series, it wasn't my go-to series of choice as a kid. I read a couple of them. A reminder of what some of the Animorphs were. One of the lead characters. Oh, no, he was the lead character. Jake, his was a tiger. Let's see, we had... So Rachel fucking cheated. She had an elephant to or a grizzly bear.
01:17:25
Speaker
you don't get too curious how she got the grizzly bear because all right so for background for B major how they acquired their power they got this cube from this fucking alien and by having those powers what they allowed you to do was essentially touch an animal and like through an amount of time you will like absorb their DNA
01:17:44
Speaker
And then you have to you can transform by focusing. It takes like 30 seconds, 30 to 60 seconds to fully transform. But you could only stay in the animal form for up to two hours, I believe. And if you stayed in any longer, you would be stuck as that forever. That was a whole like be stored through the series. One of the students stayed as a red tailed hawk and he was fucking a red tail hawk for the entire series. Like, yeah, Tobias and like book one. So fuck your character development. You are. You're a bird.
01:18:15
Speaker
You gotta go live in someone's I have to read pure curiosity Start with like the first books because it gives you like the like the whole backstory and how it came to be Yeah, that's actually amazing. I love that oh man So the problem is it's the term battle animal
01:18:39
Speaker
So it's like obviously you'd want to pick something like Sin did where it's like, oh, you're good to go, right? You're not really losing any particular battles. At least the odds are quite slim. For me, I just want to be something cool. You know, I just want to be something cool. And there is no cooler animal.
01:19:06
Speaker
Say it with me everybody, there is no cooler animal than the shoebill stork. I need to see one of these in person. It's the coolest goddamn animal. You don't get the nickname of the murder Muppet without being a cool fucking animal.
01:19:32
Speaker
So look, I might not survive against a tiger. But you look like a dinosaur. But I look like a goddamn dinosaur. For those watching on the video portion, you will see now.
01:19:46
Speaker
Look at this fucking thing. It's a pterodactyl. Look at how intimidating it looks. It looks ridiculous, doesn't it? You wouldn't fuck with this thing. But then. You don't have to fight your deterrent. Exactly. I am the John Scott of the animal kingdom. But then at the same time,
01:20:15
Speaker
as intimidating as this thing can look. It can also look like a fucking goof. And that's what it is. It doesn't look real. It looks like a goddamn cartoon.
01:20:29
Speaker
Um, so yeah, you know, you can take your, your Bengal tiger and shove it. I'm going to, I'm going to flat my wings and make a sound. He legitimately sounds like a machine gun when it makes like it's annoying. It's one of those animals that like a child makes up in its head. It's like, it's cute and fluffy for me to hug it, but also it'll murder you when it sounds like a gun.
01:20:59
Speaker
It's the coolest fucking animal. So Major, you're anamorph of choice. I'd like what he's having. Like just the combination of like that thing just looks like the epitome of mess around and find out. Like it genuinely does. Like it doesn't look intimidating. It doesn't look like it'd be able to do anything. But like if you come near it and just piss it off, you don't want to know what's going to happen.
01:21:29
Speaker
Like, that is about, like, it is like the Matt Rimpie of animals, almost. Like, it comes out of nowhere and it just fights every damn thing in sight. Like, that's it. Like, I have to choose that. No, I didn't even know they existed until five minutes ago. But now I've been converted. I've been converted. I've done it. For the record, there is one at the Tampa Zoo.
01:21:59
Speaker
And if I ever plan to make my way down there, I'll hit you up and say, meet me in Tampa. It's not that bad of a drive for you compared to me. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Oh, our next question. We got a couple more here to round this out from the great Smoota. Have any of you worked retail? And if so, what was your worst experience? I won't give his example because
01:22:27
Speaker
It's gross, but you can read it on the Discord. Major, any retail experience? So I've never really worked retail. Bless you, you lucky fuck. Yeah, the closest thing I ever got to working retail was working at my high school store. And that really doesn't count as retail because all of us are just 16, 17-year-old kids.
01:22:48
Speaker
But there's really not any... So the worst humans on earth. Yes, but we were all equally horrible. So it kind of offsets a little bit. So I don't have any specific retail stories. I have plenty of friends that have them, but it's one of those things. God bless the people that work retail because you have to do a lot of stuff that you really don't want to do and you don't get paid enough to do it. You have to deal with a lot of people. Yes, exactly. It's like college. So you're living it. Yeah, you're living it.
01:23:18
Speaker
You know, what's funny is I told the story on stream the other night, my wife being a teacher, obviously, opens up opportunities, like whether or not she puts on like a school concert or anything, her being a music teacher, it's like, I'll go and help her out with that. But if there is events going on at either the elementary school, the high school or whatever, oftentimes we'll go. So this past week, the high school drama club had a performance. And she's like, oh, do you want to go? And I'm like, yeah, sure, that's fine.
01:23:47
Speaker
So I'm watching this performance. It was very good, by the way. It was one of those things where it's like only one person you could tell was really nervous and had trouble projecting their voice. But if only one person struggling with that, then that's a damn good performance for high schoolers. But I got back to thinking, because there was a banner that was like, class of 2024, 2025, 2026, and stuff like that. And I'm like, first and foremost, Jesus fuck, I'm old.
01:24:15
Speaker
But the second one was I was transported back to that time, 17, 18 years old, junior, senior in high school. And I'm like, man, I felt like such an adult. I'm ready for the world. And then I see 17, 18 year old kids performing on stage. And I'm like, you are literal children. Where are your parents? You're not old enough to be performing a part of a stage play that involves death. This is inappropriate for people your age.
01:24:44
Speaker
I just had that moment. I know Sinz had his moments on this podcast of like, good God, I'm old. I figured I'd share one of my recent experiences. This wasn't technically a retail job, but it was customer service, so it's close enough. I worked at a pizza place for a long time, mostly as a delivery driver.
01:25:04
Speaker
as part of rotation you have to be inside the shop at times always doing things and part of it was answering phones or doing the register stuff. Dude, customers suck.
01:25:15
Speaker
And fortunately, I had a great boss where he he said, if anyone disrespects you, you can tell them to get out and then you can if they know me, they can contact me and I will talk to them. He was an incredible dude from Syria. And anyway, but backstory aside, I can think of a lot of moments. But one of the one that always couple always stand out in my mind, one lady would always come in and ask for a military discount because her son was in the military.
01:25:42
Speaker
I'm like, we don't have a military discount. Second of all, you're not in the military. It doesn't matter if your son served. That doesn't extend to you his fucking discounts if we had one. The second one was this dude.
01:26:01
Speaker
who just wasn't fucking getting it. He's like, yeah, let me get a salad. I'm like, all right, which one do you want? He's like, nah, just a salad. I'm like, yeah, we have several options of our salads. Which one do you want? He's like, can you just give me a salad? I'm like, buddy, I don't know how to charge that. We don't do custom orders. What kind of salad would you like?
01:26:21
Speaker
He's like, well, you can't just give me a salad and I'll pay money. And he wasn't fucking getting it.
Dealing with Difficult Customers
01:26:28
Speaker
And he was getting mad at me like I was being the asshole because I wouldn't give him a salad when I was just pointing to the menu like, all right, this salad has all this. He's like, I don't want it. I'm like, will you take some of it off? He's like, no, can't you just make me like a salad? I'm like, no.
01:26:44
Speaker
And that is just the type of people in any retail job that you have to deal with who fucking think they're, they're right all the time or they're entitled to something. And that is just epitomizes, I think what it's like working in retail or any sort of customer service is just these fucking idiots who think you don't know better. They look down on you and yeah.
01:27:08
Speaker
So what did he end up getting? Was it literally just lettuce and a fork or did he just want you to take something off from the sound of it? He wanted the fucking manager at the end. And so I'm like, cool. I got like I wiped my hands of this. I went back and got our fucking manager who who said, of course, said the same things I did and just and I don't know what happened to a guy or anything like that. But I just I love that. It's like, OK, yeah, you want the manager? And then I'm just listening in the back. He's telling him all the same shit. I'm like, yeah, go fuck yourself. Like,
01:27:39
Speaker
Yeah. It was a fun job, though, I'm not going to lie, man, delivering pizza in a middle class town at some place's upper middle tips. That was the best actual day job I ever had.
Positive Experiences as Pizza Delivery Driver
01:27:52
Speaker
I've made like average like 20, 25 bucks an hour doing that job. And I got to be most of the time in my car listening to music.
01:28:00
Speaker
Try and add that at all. At a high school, I did the whole overnight stocking shelves thing at a grocery store, so I didn't have to deal with people too often except like the very start or the very end. But if you're stocking shelves at a grocery store at six in the morning, it's all old people, so they're fine.
01:28:18
Speaker
uh more often than not it was can you get this off the top shelf um which yes yes i can i still get asked every once in a while if like if i'm just grocery shopping so i'm sure the person will come up to me can you can you grab this and my wife laughs at me every time um i also worked at a Lowe's around that same time too and um it was okay i mean i don't have any horror stories other than just
01:28:46
Speaker
I hated working register. Yeah, I just didn't want to do it. It's like, look, we have a lot a lot of that job. I should have stayed at that job sooner, honestly, or longer, I should say. A lot of it was like, hey, we need 12 girls put together today.
01:29:03
Speaker
I'm on it. I can do that. No problem. That's easy. But it's like, hey, can you can you fill in on register three? It's like, do I have to? Yeah, I just don't want to talk to people, especially during the time I was still figuring out that I was completely introverted. Like, and that's why I love just being by myself in the car. And like, dude, like dealing with people, number one is overwhelming. But dealing with customers is even worse. It's like people times 10. Yeah. Yeah. It's not great.
01:29:34
Speaker
Interesting one here I was actually gonna use this as our segue to the video game talk, but we just kicked off with it For my very are there any video games? You've been playing off-stream lately in your own spare time any games that you've been wanting to get into For me, this is an easy answer No way outside of playing some pro clubs with sin on FC. I have just not had the time to
01:30:00
Speaker
to play stuff that I've wanted to play. Like the more recent Spider-Man game that's come out in the past couple of months, it probably came out like eight months ago now, let's be honest, time flies. I just haven't had time. And it's been that lack of time that's been frustrating because I could stream it
01:30:19
Speaker
But then remember when we talked about numbers are the biggest incentive. It's tough to see your viewership fall by two thirds to stream a game like that because either people have already played it themselves. They don't want it spoiled or they've already, you know, they have someone, a content creator that they watch do that type of stuff.
01:30:40
Speaker
I just haven't had that spare time. The laundry list of games I'd like to play in my spare time is massive. I remember when we talked about work-life balance and how difficult it is to balance the work
Balancing Work and Leisure
01:30:53
Speaker
itself. And then it's like, well, am I going to sit here and play an hour or two of Spider-Man, or am I going to walk my dog? Am I going to take care of the dishes? Am I going to do this, that? It's just there is not. I really wish I could clone myself.
01:31:06
Speaker
I can really do and then have the mutual shared experiences. It's something I accepted a few years ago. I am never going to have enough time to experience everything I want to experience, whether it be video games, movies, TV shows, whatever. It's just I am never going to happen.
01:31:23
Speaker
Yeah, so I'll I've done I've been playing banner Lord stronghold and another game which I'll mention I've done banner Lord on the channel and I'm currently doing stronghold on the channel But I've been playing Star Wars the Old Republic, which is essentially like
01:31:40
Speaker
Wow World of Warcraft with Star Wars It's an MMORPG set in the Star Wars universe in the times of the Old Republic and it's so sick like it is it's a really great game and holds up extraordinarily well came out in like 2013 they still updating and coming out with expansions for it, but it's right up my alley because I love RPGs and I love Star Wars and
Enjoyment of Star Wars: The Old Republic
01:32:04
Speaker
The story for it's amazing. I'm a sucker for good stories. And you get to be a Sith or a Jedi. And all your decisions affect whether you're light side or dark. So you can be a dark side Jedi if you want. Or you can be like a light side Sith or like a gray Jedi if you just kind of go in the middle. It's tremendous game.
01:32:23
Speaker
nerd. That's a lot of fun. Major, what about you? So nothing specific, but I think the one thing I've been really wanting to try to get into more really over the last couple of years, I just haven't at the time, it's more story based games.
01:32:38
Speaker
I grew up mostly playing sports titles, whether that be 2K, Madden, NHL, more recently MLB The Show because I've always been an Xbox guy and that was a PlayStation game for so long. But I've really wanted to get more into story-based games and funny story, you want to know who originally got me into wanting to do that by watching his streams? Justin.
01:32:59
Speaker
Grace Police. I was watching him play Life is Strange, the first one, and I got really into it. And his viewers at the time got really into it because I love the story of it. And I love that you could actually play a game that was like quest based. So I played that. I played the original Bully, which was also very fun to play. So I kind of got more into like story quest based games. So I kind of want to get back into that a little bit when I have the time, hopefully when things slow down a little bit over the summer.
01:33:29
Speaker
I got a good list of games for you then because I love like story based games or RPG type like do you like you mean like narrative based games like more story or like more free based narrative where you're making decisions and choosing to accept their certain definitely. Yeah, definitely free based narrative. I like games where you have to make one choice or the other and you know that they can have different outcomes. I kind of like that because it has more replayability. Have you ever played an Elder Scrolls game?
01:33:55
Speaker
I've not, I've heard they're really good. They're involved and I hear that they take a long time to complete, so I just have not gotten into it, because if I get into it, I want to be able to kind of like go through it, but. For me, my suggestion to you, speaking of games that I've had a fun time playing on stream, I need to suggest to you, David Cage and his world of video games,
01:34:23
Speaker
including the likes of Heavy Rain, Beyond Two Souls, and perhaps my top suggestion, Detroit Become Human, which is...
01:34:35
Speaker
A robot that becomes a bit sentient in terms of his role and his fellow robots in society. It's a fun time, to be honest. I recommend that one in terms of choices mattering and stuff like that.
01:34:55
Speaker
But yeah, now I'm depressed about the times that I don't have to play games and finish something like... Like, I still haven't finished Red Dead 2. I don't know if I ever will. It's just such a massive fucking game. It's like the only... It'd be the only game that I could play. This is why, like, the roster editing thing for me and NHL is taking for fucking ever is because I've realized, like, is the juice worth the squeeze anymore? Yeah.
01:35:19
Speaker
You know where it's just like they don't care as much as I do so I shouldn't care this much and I should dedicate that But the amount of time I sink at roster editing I could make other videos and play other games and be much happier. So fun the final question Again comes from bounce.
NHL Controversies & Fan Reactions
01:35:41
Speaker
Yeah, allow them to this week because we missed one from last week, but this was a good one. Oh
01:35:46
Speaker
With the ongoing news of a devastating blow after devastating blow of awful news regarding hockey culture, mental illness, injury, all the other stuff, at what point do you personally say goodbye to the NHL? At what point do you cease to separate art from the artist? And if this were to happen, would you even be a hockey fan of a different league? I think it's an interesting question because
01:36:17
Speaker
Throughout the history of the show, we've always talked about, you know, it's like, OK, here's the Kyle Beach thing. And for example, a judge today, there was an ongoing lawsuit being filed from the other John Doe and a judge just today ruled that the Hawks aren't going to be able to dismiss it. The Hawks tried to claim statute of limitations and the judge is like, ah, go fuck yourselves.
01:36:42
Speaker
So that story is still ongoing and all the other things that have happened in terms of the attack on Pride nights and enforcer deaths and all of that. I've talked about it like this podcast in a lot of ways has covered my decline and interest of the NHL. I still have interest. I still love talking hockey. I still love watching it. I'm getting more into it now that the playoffs are closer.
01:37:10
Speaker
It's been tough though. It has been because it's already at the point where I don't watch the WWE anymore because of a lot of shitty, shitty stuff. I don't watch the UFC anymore because they don't pay their fucking fighters.
01:37:27
Speaker
And they just want a lawsuit that's going to allow them to continue where they settled. It's going to allow them to continue to underpay the fuck out of their fighters. So there are certain things where it's like you just, for me at least, I can't have that separation. Where I can't enjoy something if it's, I can't not feel gross knowing that I'm supporting this. The NHL was close. It was very close. In terms of what it would take,
01:37:57
Speaker
Uh, at this point, I mean, it's, it's tough to say because they've already pushed the line so far. Yeah. So to be honest, I wonder if in part I'm just like, have I already passed that point and then just been like, fuck it and forgiven it.
01:38:14
Speaker
And maybe I have. I don't know. For me, it's like I think my my my interest in it has just declined, like for sure. Like it is steadily declined. It's a lot in part having to do with the league stuff a little bit in part with like the Sharks are clearly tanking. I'm not going to watch every single game. And I just you know, it's. And I'm but but the thing that like
01:38:40
Speaker
When I first started content creating on NHL, I was so much more into everything. I was doing my own mock drafts at the time. That was a couple of years into me doing that, and I was really into who was coming up, who was doing all that. I would watch scouting videos being made, huge raw footage of a certain player, hours long.
01:39:00
Speaker
to see what I thought that they're going to be. I remember very specifically watching Nico Hescher and Nolan Patrick scouting packages for that upcoming draft. And I'm just nowhere near that anymore. Maybe it has to do with being busier and having other things on my mind. But yeah, it's a lot in part with what the NHL has continued to do. And for me, it's like, yeah, if they continue down this path and continue to do what they're doing, there might be a time where I just no longer watch. But it's just, for me, I'm just in a steady decline right now and of interest.
01:39:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's pretty on par of how a good amount of people feel. And I think that when you set that question, the number one thing that did come to mind for me, even though I don't really watch it, is WWE with all of the crap that has gone on with that whole thing. Because I've seen a lot of people that I know that are avid wrestling fans like you, Doogie, that
01:39:52
Speaker
Now refuse to watch wwe just because not even just product or quality of product But just morally they can't get themselves to sit down and watch a two or three hour program Knowing the stuff that happened and not even just the stuff that happened But the reaction to things that have happened and I think that's really the trap that you know
01:40:12
Speaker
the NHL has gotten itself in as a league, not necessarily just the things that happen, but how they react or just their lack of reaction to things that happen. And I think that's really the number one, like you look at this whole Chicago Blackhawks thing and
01:40:28
Speaker
Black Hawks fans are going to hate me for saying this, but I personally think the fact that they came off of a scandal that serious to where somebody that they knew did what he did was allowed to work with children, then impact an age child by doing those same things, got to get rewarded with the number one overall pick and get arguably the best talent of his generation is absolutely disgusting.
01:40:48
Speaker
there was little to no punishment that actually affects that organization. The money that they had to pay in a fine is nothing to that family's pockets. Things like that that the NHL does or does not do, those are the things that push fans away. And I think the hockey Canada thing that's going on right now is another example of something that had little to no reaction or not enough reaction. And I think that that's kind of more what it comes down to. It's not even just the things that happened, but just
01:41:15
Speaker
what the steps are after those things happen. Because the NHL, if there's anything that it is really bad at, is that either reacting properly or reacting at all. And it feels like more and more people are getting pushed away from the sport that we all love and all enjoy. And in our opinion, it's the best sport in this world are getting pushed away because of lack of proactiveness on really serious stuff.
01:41:44
Speaker
So the countdown is on, I believe it's another 12 years until B major can run for president. But the countdown is on, everybody. You have my vote, sir. I appreciate it. Gentlemen with that, anything else or shall we call it a day? I think we think it was a good show. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I enjoyed it. Yeah. So you know what? You know what I'll do, by the way?
01:42:15
Speaker
because I still had the Metacritic stuff up when we were talking about things. If you had to guess what the user score is for NHL 14, the most acclaimed game of the series, if you had to guess what the user score is on Metacritic right now for NHL 14 after I named off all the other ones, what do you think it would be? User score.
01:42:43
Speaker
The critics score was an 81. User score I would say was at a 4. I'll go a little bit higher. I'll say a 5.5. For the most critically acclaimed game of all time that everyone wants back, the user scores 6.1.
Criticism of NHL Game Controls
01:43:06
Speaker
That's pretty damn good 47% positive 26% negative 20 or excuse me 28% negative 26% mixed The most recent review on this is from 2016 So it just goes to show that at the time What was what is now viewed as like the glory days even then
01:43:31
Speaker
was a controversial game, including a review from September 14th of 2014 from Bramsterdam, who gave it a zero. This game is a massive piece of junk.
01:43:49
Speaker
The controls are awkward, clunky, and just plain frustrating. If you enjoy spending hours upon hours learning the controls, then by all means play this game. I can't believe they don't have a better tutorial system when the controls are so complex and clunky. Besides that, every online game results in a massive lag fest playing versus people. The AI is also incredibly stupid. For example, I just finished playing a game. I went in on a 2 on 0 and my AI wingers skated behind the net.
01:44:16
Speaker
Sorry, man. EA is just a terrible gaming company that makes inferior products. Don't spend the dime on this junk unless you enjoy frustration. Honestly, if we've gone back and played it, which I have, and I know we even did it together in the tournament, it's a good game, but it's not what people hold it up as. It really isn't. Now, what if I told you that review I just read was for NHL 24?
01:44:42
Speaker
You'd believe it. It's not. It's for NHL 14. Everything I just said, people complaining about the controls, the game being frustration, the AIs dumb. Ten years on, we're still there.
01:44:56
Speaker
I think the thing too is that something that those two games, and correct me if I'm wrong, because NHL 14 was actually my first NHL, correct me if I'm wrong, but both NHL 14 and NHL 24 are two of the EA games that pretty much completely overhauled the controls. There were massive overhauls, I'm pretty sure, on both of those games, because that's around the time where EA started to transition more to the offensive skill stick, I think, and I could be wrong on that. So skill stick was introduced to NHL 07.
01:45:27
Speaker
That's a lot earlier than what I thought, okay. Yeah, so that was introduced in 07, but this was the time where they were tweaking a lot of things in regards to skating especially, which did affect the skill stick and the offensive output, because 12, 13, and 14 all feel like completely different games. Yeah.
01:45:49
Speaker
12 is incredibly fast, agile. 13 is a lot more grounded, heavier. I would argue in realistic skating in terms of player momentum. It's very inertial. And 14 is like the in-between. Yeah.
01:46:03
Speaker
So I have a question if you guys don't mind since I was not around during that time competitively and you guys were. Did you ever hear people say that the game wasn't realistic enough or that it was fine? Because that feels like a lot of times where now everyone's saying, oh, the game isn't realistic enough. It needs to, you know, like it's a game that has always been a talking point.
01:46:25
Speaker
Yeah, because that game does not play realistically to real life hockey. You can use one player and just dig your way through all five skaters. You know, it's always been always been the case. And yeah, they've never been realistic and harkening back. Like, you know, if I went back and watched my old like be a pro videos from like NHL 14 and NHL
01:46:47
Speaker
15 on old gen because 15 on Xbox One was a disaster. I'm constantly bitching about the AI. I'm constantly bitching about how things aren't realistic. And I'd still do that to this day if I'm playing because that's how I want. That's what I actually do want is that realistic. But yeah, that's always, always been a complaint of people. Yeah. I did a page search for the term realistic. This game is not realistic at all.
01:47:16
Speaker
You do see hits in the NHL games, but not as many hits as this, not even close. The hitting engine's a lot of fun, perhaps not truly realistic. It's unrealistic in trying to be something, it's not. Unrealistic hitting.
01:47:34
Speaker
And the hitting is unrealistic, so people really hated the hitting in NHL 14 back in the day. That's kind of crazy because I thought it was pretty damn. Well, it's fun. It's probably isn't realistic. And I'm trying to think back to the time. But yeah, it's I mean, you are clobbering people if you had the right bill. Yeah. Yeah. So it just goes back to the community as to decide what it wants.
01:47:55
Speaker
That's what it all goes back to. And you're never gonna get a majority consensus on that, but you do need to at least get a certain percentage that will at least accept what they're getting and decide what it is that they want.
01:48:05
Speaker
And it's not going to happen. No, it is. It's like acceptance is a tough thing for this community. Yeah, it's like it's just that's one of those things that isn't going to happen. It's like it's impossible for them to make everybody happy. And the problem is the side that's catered to will be happy and rub it in the face of people who aren't happy about it. And those people will continue to double down and be pissed or just go away. And the NHL can't risk that.
01:48:29
Speaker
And the community itself is so fragmented too because you have the 1v1 people that want something completely different from the 6s people who are going to want something completely different from the offline people.
Conclusion & Social Media Plugs
01:48:38
Speaker
Like there are two, three different communities within one community that is already small. Yeah. Hmm. I wonder if we ever need separate tuner sets, which I keep plugging and they keep telling me maybe in the future.
01:48:52
Speaker
Well, that's the perfect way to end the show. So I'm going to have a depressive note. Major, I want to thank you again for joining us here, especially on relatively short notice. This was a hell of a lot of fun. Yeah. Do you have anything to plug, promote? Obviously, you're not really in the content creation scene, but what are you going to?
01:49:11
Speaker
Well, um, if anyone wants to just keep up with me and what I'm doing in terms of the broadcasting, you can follow me on Twitter or X. We're not calling it X, Elon. Twitter B beige a B M a G U H. Or if you or an e-sports team want to get some kind of video or graphic, I do a little bit of freelancing on the side with that.
01:49:32
Speaker
You can follow me at major edits underscore. So M-A-J-U-H-E-D-I-T-S underscore. So you can find me on either of those two things and feel free to drop a follow or reach out. If you or your team wants something fun, create it for you.
01:49:48
Speaker
Sin, yourself, what do you got going on here? Yeah, still rocking my new St. Louis Blues series on my YouTube channel, Sin FTW Productions on that side of things, and you can find me on Twitter if you can, sinftwprod, I am probably shadowbanned. Let me check if I type your name in. No, okay, it might not be anymore, because now I'm...
01:50:12
Speaker
Now it pops up. Let me see if I can tag you in a tweet. You've finally started showing up for me again, interestingly enough. Good, yeah. I did stop blocking blue checks at the high frequency that I was, but yeah.
01:50:27
Speaker
There you go. Okay, I won't promote the fact I'm playing MLB on Twitch or whatever in the YouTube stuff. I will end this by saying it's the funniest fucking thing in the world to me. There was an old tweet of Elon from his Saturday Night Live appearance where he's sad Wario. And so many people were dunking on him in the comments.
01:50:49
Speaker
that he nuked the comment section. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was that was the it was from the satire magazine that I follow. Hard times. They were absolutely ratioing him on his own tweet. He deleted years ago. Yeah, he deleted that tweet and he and he literally removed the comment section. God. That's the only reason he bought that fucking thing because he was forced to.
01:51:18
Speaker
With that everybody, we will be back either later this week depending on the hockey news or perhaps next week for now though. Thank you again for tuning in and we'll catch you next time.