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Attachment Planeting with Josh McLean
853 Plays10 months ago
Have you considered the backstory of your leather shoes? Are you curious about the process that transforms raw hides into luxurious handbags? Do you wonder how tanning relates to personal and collective resilience? Ever thought about nature connection through the lens of Attachment Theory? If so, my guest today is sure to massage your mind.
It’s Josh McLean, a social worker and Bush Adventure Therapy Facilitator who also happens to be an expert in the lost art of hide tanning.
You might know him as the guy from The Bush Tannery, but he’s increasingly bringing his wicked set of ancestral skills to bear on modern mental health practice.
I first met Josh at a rabbit tanning workshop he was leading in the middle of the city, and I was really honoured that he was made the time to reconnect and join me on the podcast to share his fascinating perspective on life, death, the past, the future, changemaking, bridge building and the pale blue dot we call home. So, please enjoy this ye olde skills edition of Reskillience with Josh McLean.
Josh’s tanning workshops at CERES
Get in touch with Josh ~ thebushtannery@gmail.com
Book ~ Attached by Dr. Amir Levine & Rachel S.F. Heller M.A
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Transcript
Introduction and Acknowledgements
00:00:03
Speaker
Resilience! Hey, this is Katie and you're tuned into Resilience, a podcast about skills, the resilience they bring and living closer to the ground so we don't have quite so far to fall if our fragile modern systems fail us. Thank you to Jara Country for holding these conversations and the Jaja Wurrung people for holding Country.
Personal Reflections and Tanning Experiences
00:00:29
Speaker
The chair that's holding me is total rubbish. I picked it up on the side of the road, sanded it back and painted it hot pink and yellow. It creaks and groans under my weight, reminding me that the ground is a much better place for a human butt. But what this chair does hold perfectly is my fox pelt, which is permanently draped over the back.
00:00:53
Speaker
The fox is a vixen who was found dead in the orchard at Meliodora, possibly hit by a car. Her fur is a striking shade of auburn flecked with silver. It's soft as a puppy and smells pleasantly of leaves and smoke. Well, it does now.
00:01:10
Speaker
My talented friend Jeremy helped me prepare this pelt, taking it from a fleshy and stinky and flaccid thing in a freezer bag to a soft and sacred object. We used hand tools that Jeremy made himself, because he's also a blacksmith, and spent a whole day scraping flesh and stretching sinewy fibers and rubbing oil and egg yolk into the fox's skin before warming it in the sun, and later smoking it over semi-rotten wood.
00:01:40
Speaker
If we hadn't done all of these steps and simply left the fox's pelt to dry naturally, it would be stiff as a board and fair game for bugs and maggots. And that's the magic of tanning. This traditional human craft is how animal skins
00:01:56
Speaker
and the warmth and strength and utility they provide is lovingly preserved. I used to cringe at furs and skins, you know, fluffy rabbit jackets, fuzzy possum hats and fox furs slung fashionably over shoulders. I saw them as a gruesome display of human dominance, making trophies and accessories out of the dead.
00:02:19
Speaker
But having gingerly explored this ancestral craft, partially by accident as a practical way to deal with the fox in the freezer, and partially out of a desire to face the visceral realities of existence, I now count tanning as one of the noblest of skills. Not a desecration of, but a celebration of life. And the fox pelt hanging on the back of my hot pink chair sure makes a great conversation starter.
00:02:46
Speaker
So, have you considered the backstory of your leather shoes? Are you curious about the process that transforms raw hides into luxurious handbags? Do you wonder how tanning relates to personal and collective resilience?
Discussion with Josh McLean: Tanning and Mental Health
00:03:00
Speaker
Ever thought about nature connection through the lens of attachment theory?
00:03:04
Speaker
If so, my guest today is sure to massage your mind. It's Josh McLean, a social worker and bush adventure therapy facilitator who also happens to be an expert in the lost art of hide tanning. You might know him as the guy from the bush tannery, but he's increasingly bringing his wicked set of ancestral skills to bear on modern mental health practice.
00:03:28
Speaker
I first met Josh at a rabbit tanning workshop that he was leading in the middle of the city and I was really honoured that he made the time to reconnect and join me on the podcast to share his fascinating perspective on life, death, the past, the future, change making, bridge building and the pale blue dot we call home. So please enjoy this ye olde skills edition of Resculience with Josh McLean.
00:03:56
Speaker
I'm bad at doing that artificial, Hey, Josh, welcome to the Resculience podcast. But yeah, maybe I'll yeah. Hey, welcome. It's so lovely to see you in the screen. And where are you? Yeah, so hi, everyone. I'm Josh, and I'm calling in from what our own country. So, uh,
00:04:19
Speaker
Jelang in the Wadururung language. It means tongue of the land or you would hear it as Jelung and that's where I'm calling in from today. Thanks for having me on. I'm super excited to be here and talk about tanning, where it's taken me and everything in between. Learn a little bit about what is resculience, you know, and
00:04:44
Speaker
How does that have a place in today as we deal with some pretty big things that are happening on the planet? And as the future unfolds, where do these lost trades sort of take us? So yeah, when I got the invitation, Katie, I was like, yeah, excellent, let's do it.
00:05:05
Speaker
amazing yeah and I'm so happy you took me up on that offer and I think that as you yeah as you're speaking I was just tuning back into a conversation I was having while cutting up some pears to dry at a table just earlier this morning we've got a glut of fruit at the moment
00:05:23
Speaker
which is not a problem at all. And we were talking about this interview and that I was really excited to be chatting with you today. And my friend said, how are you going to relate tanning to everyday people? And what are the implications? Because this is, as you say, this lost craft and endangered skill that's not really
00:05:44
Speaker
um in our face at the moment is something that we need from a point of necessity but are you able to explain you know where tanning fits in the ecosystem of a modern human person who may not even make the connection that a handbag or shoes has come from an animal? Yeah no absolutely I think
00:06:05
Speaker
You know, after doing tanning for, I think it's coming on a decade now and certainly a practice I never imagined I would participate in, you know, formally, you know, previously vegan and very much, you know, about animal rights and that, you know, consuming animals is an archaic thing that we don't need to do anymore and
00:06:30
Speaker
I would go as far as to say that tanning as a practice is more relevant today than it's ever been and the reason why I say that in terms of Western society and it's
00:06:46
Speaker
uh mentality around um like if you look at the core myth that we're kind of living is that is this infinite world infinite growth infinite consumption is like this peter pan generation that thinks it can live in never neverland without consequence
00:07:06
Speaker
And that's coming to terms with our own mortality. And if you take an Indigenous approach to this, coming into contact with your own mortality and how to celebrate death and dying and ageing,
00:07:22
Speaker
and understanding that life is eating life in all of its forms. And the Ouroboros is probably a really great mythic symbol of that, the snake eating its own tail, which appears in so many different cultures as a motif. And yeah, that's where I would say that a practice like tanning, not sun tanning as some people might ask me, you're a tanner,
00:07:53
Speaker
is participating in that cycle of death and renewal. So we talk about, you know, it's a cradle to cradle process, you know, is the death, but then the rebirth of something, you know, we're all born out of the earth and we all return to the earth. And I think this practice really celebrates that. Yeah, that's extremely
00:08:21
Speaker
poetic and gratifying because I often struggle to articulate why it is I think that looking, facing into the bloodier, gorier, messier parts of life and death, more specifically, why that is connected to our crises that we're facing and also the opportunities that we have to really extricate ourselves from those things. So thank you for putting that so beautifully. I want to
00:08:49
Speaker
see if you can kind of flesh out the vegan aspect because I know I was a vegan and I had such an impenetrable armour. I had this hardened kind of shield that deflected any kind of advice or education or teaching or alternative perspectives that would come in from the outside. I just didn't want to hear it. And it was only through like my own health challenges. And I think questioning
00:09:19
Speaker
questioning mortality and those existential things that kind of led me along the path a little bit but I'd love to hear more about your story from veganism to tanning toads and eels and rabbits and you know the kind of work you do today. Yeah no thank you Katie so yeah to go from veganism to tanning and you know I consume
00:09:42
Speaker
meat as well. Yeah, very similar, like this very much impenetrable armour, you know, this is the right way, you know, and pro-life and, you know, really, I think it's born from a really loving place, but I think it's one step on that journey. So, you know, certainly
00:10:05
Speaker
there's the consumption of meat and then there's the consumption of meat. Like, you know, there's very different ways that one can consume food. And having done a master's in public health and I majored in nutrition and food system literacy, so how we eat, you know, shapes society and the planet, you know, it really does affect
00:10:32
Speaker
everybody across the planet how we produce food and consume food. And so a little anecdote about my experience was, you know, and some people will know this story, if they've tanned with me is I was in Lapland and I hadn't really planned to spend more than a couple of weeks, but I ended up living there for six months and spending time in a Sami village.
00:11:00
Speaker
and relating with the Sami people in this village, one particular family and some of that knowledge was passed on around relating to the land and a big part of that was eating meat and at the time I was very much
00:11:20
Speaker
no meat, very much lentils, rice and fruit and vegetables. And I just through a cultural, you know, like being culturally safe, I just said, yeah, okay. I had some smoked moose heart. And then there was stories about how they relate to the moose and the fish.
00:11:44
Speaker
And it really shifted my way of thinking it was okay. So there's one way of consuming the meat that's unhealthy, but this relational aspect of celebrating the life and that this animal is living its natural life here and I'm
00:12:03
Speaker
participating in that and I think that really shifted my understanding of how we participate in the food system even though I had very much learned a lot of the science behind animal products and how damaging that was. So it was quite a conflict internally but after that experience I looked at
00:12:25
Speaker
how we consume animal products quite differently. I see all life as sacred and how we participate in that story. That is the important part. Yeah, I feel like Smoked Moose Heart could be the name of this episode and also that is a very intense entry point for a vegan into the carnivorous world. I wonder if this is a really hideous question but
00:12:56
Speaker
Would you want your hide tanned? It's funny, I often get asked that. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or if, you know, if you have a tanned human skin or something like that.
00:13:12
Speaker
No, I guess if I had tattoos, I would, you know, maybe if the tattoos were really important works of art, like you see that in Japanese tattoos or Maori tattoo work, I think sometimes they've they've actually preserved it as a like an art piece to honor that family. But no, I don't think I've got my skin has got any any story to tell as leather.
00:13:38
Speaker
Oh, wow, that's beautiful, unexpected answer in the sense that you're looking at it from a value perspective rather than your own squeamishness. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I wouldn't be there to turn it because that would that would be very painful if I was. Maybe, maybe the more eloquent version of that question is how comfortable really does the practice of tanning make you with your own mortality?
00:14:06
Speaker
I question myself in this because I think now I've got this trick of, yeah, I'm participating in the life and death and life cycle, but when my life is imperiled, am I going to have that same equanimity and kind of poetry about it? You know, like, can any of us purport to be cool with it? I'm wondering what your thoughts and feelings are around your own mortality. Yeah, I think early on,
00:14:35
Speaker
you know, you get a sense of, you know, working, you know, and you've got the blood and all of the gore that comes with the tanning process and it's initially quite squeamish, you know, and then after a while it becomes quite natural. I wouldn't say it's enjoyable by any stretch, you know.
00:14:57
Speaker
I wouldn't say I enjoy it, it just feels like a natural process. But as the years have gone on and as I enter into the afternoon of my life, I find myself looking back more on where I've been, what I've done, and in terms of my own mortality, looking at, okay,
00:15:22
Speaker
you know, in the afternoon of my life now, what am I going to do in this like the second half of my life? So, and I think that confrontation of death and dying has really helped
00:15:37
Speaker
with that process and even supporting loved ones who have passed as well. I wouldn't say it makes it easy, but I certainly feel a different sense of acceptance. It doesn't feel
00:15:58
Speaker
like a shame or like a bad thing, it feels very natural and a part of life. I think grief and loss are still natural responses to that, but rather than it sitting in our shadow and, you know, as people age, they don't want to celebrate their birthdays or, you know, it's seen as a shame, you know, whereas I think
00:16:21
Speaker
If you look at other cultures, there's a real celebration there, you know, about the gifts that they've given and the valuing of people as they age for their wisdom and experience. And now if you look at the general Western society, it's like we put the aging, you know, isolated away.
00:16:44
Speaker
And, you know, I think that's kind of a good juxtaposition to show how we process mortality. But yeah, that's my experience as well, is I do feel more connected to my own mortality, which is making life, you know, more bearable to a degree. Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's nice to hear. Yeah, you touched on that.
00:17:13
Speaker
the grisliness that tanning can entail and I was thinking before this conversation you mess around with a you know a brain if you're doing that that style of tanning you're kind of squishing and squelching up a brain or you're you know using urine to tan or you know there's lots of different processes for tanning so I do want to acknowledge that like it's not just the kind of pelt and the flesh you're dealing with there's like a multi-organ
00:17:42
Speaker
kind of participation in this process. Knowing a little bit more about tanning then you know I had that realization that I hadn't made the connection between things that I use really frequently and the fact that they were leather or they were tanned or they were skin and also how
00:18:00
Speaker
efficient that is as a form as a material and if we're talking about buckskin or things you can leather and tanned items you can wear what I understand is that that represents quite a quite an efficient and valuable um source of kind of self-protection and warmth and shelter as opposed to growing hemp or cotton or things that we have to go through these really lengthy processes to then create a fiber from
00:18:30
Speaker
Is that right? Yeah, no, that's 100% right. Like to give the listener a bit of, if you don't understand how long it takes to tan a skin, you know, say buckskin leather you might be able to make in a week, depending on the size of the animal. It does take longer to do your bark tanning leather, so that might take
00:18:57
Speaker
anywhere from two months for a thin skin all the way up to a year for like what you see is a cowhide leather you know used for belts and more structural leather pieces like halters for a horse
00:19:14
Speaker
you know, that leather generally takes up to 12 months to produce. So not all leathers are created equal in terms of time and function. Yeah, so that in terms of growing in production though, yeah, like you said, you know, particularly if we were to do, you know, traditional
00:19:40
Speaker
you know, hemp production and breaking the fiber down and releasing the fiber, then twining like the fiber together so it can be used to create something. You know, you start, yeah, the production time really does come into effect.
00:19:58
Speaker
And then in terms of longevity of its strength as well, some leather items become heirlooms if they're looked after properly, and they're oiled and they're handed down. A pair of boots, for example, you're only going to get so many
00:20:18
Speaker
years out of them and if you look after the leather often it's the stitching that will come out you know or the soles you know if you have rubber soles obviously that's a relatively new technology but you know for leather soles you might have to replace your leather soles
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you saw this documentary from I think last year it was released called The Nettle Dress. And it was a very beautiful independent documentary about a man who spent seven years harvesting and processing nettle fiber to make a dress for his teenage daughter. And it's incredibly beautiful, but seven years.
Engaging Diverse Communities and Ancestral Skills
00:21:02
Speaker
It was such an intense process.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, and depending on the construction and how the dress is used, it would be interesting to see how long that dress will last. I know from colonial settlers colonizing different parts of the planet, not just here in Australia, but I think particularly in North America, where buckskins typically associated with the First Nations people in North America,
00:21:34
Speaker
you know when in their woolen sweaters or whatever they'd get through the forest and they're just torn to shreds you know but in the buckskin because it's so supple and it's so strong um and so quiet and you blend in um you know it's such a superior like fabric and it can last
00:21:55
Speaker
uh you know for years and years like i have a two goat skin um buckskin shirt and you know it's still going like i um you know i don't hang it up with my other clothes or whatever you know it's stuffed into a bag and i pull it out and it's like the same day that i smoked it like it's still super supple and um
00:22:17
Speaker
I don't know how long it'll last for, maybe my whole life if I'm only wearing it infrequently, but certainly, you know, if we talk about resculients and in terms of handmade textiles, you know, working with skin and tanning, it's a pretty incredible material.
00:22:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, which actually reminds me, you look really normal. You just like dress really normally. What's the deal? Like why aren't you in head to toe, deer, skin, finery?
00:22:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, I that's a really good point. And something I honestly, if I could dress how I want, I would be wearing that. But as we talked sort of off the podcast about, you know, sort of where tanning has taken me, like I've a lot of the skills and experiences that I feel
00:23:19
Speaker
you know as I was doing the tanning and you know as the crafter like this this sort of barrier between you and the process starts to dissolve and it's like who who's crafting who here you know and this process of embodiment and feeling that our chemical changes with the skin I could feel internally and
00:23:47
Speaker
As a result of that a long story short but yeah a lot of those practices I've actually taken and I work as a social worker in mental health and I work in the community and so while you might not see me as frequently at some of these rewilding sorts of gatherings and skill gatherings
00:24:09
Speaker
I'm bringing these skills to children that might be disadvantaged or vulnerable, people with disabilities, people that might not necessarily be exposed to this stuff and while it might not look like
00:24:26
Speaker
Yeah, I've got my leather bags on and all my leathers and that this inspiring awe and wonder and contact with these skills is still very much a part of how I interact with people. So yeah, it's sort of integrating that into the mainstream. And that's probably why, yeah, as you're looking at me right now, it's like, oh, you look like you're a normal guy. And then you start chatting to me and you're like, maybe not.
00:24:56
Speaker
I would never accuse anyone of being normal. I don't think any of us want to hear that. That's right. That's right. Yeah. We're all on the inside. That's true. But I'm very, very, very excited by the idea that arose as you were making that beautiful segue into outdoor health, which is the venture and that integrated space that you're now inhabiting. But my excitement levels rose when I thought about this
00:25:23
Speaker
this constant this perennial question that I know myself and a lot of people in more of an activist or environmental or, you know, impassioned state about something that they want to bring to the world. And we find ourselves just talking to people who are already all over it, you know, and like, we're kind of affirming each other and we're deepening our practice. But are we really reaching out? Are we really building bridges, really connecting across like different demographics or different neighborhoods or
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah, abilities, are we actually casting the kind of ripples that we want? And I would love to talk to you about what your thoughts on activism are and what it is like to actually, as you say, mainstream some of this really, you know, it's old and traditional, but it's quite edgy, fringy stuff.
00:26:13
Speaker
There's a couple of things that no, I think on the first point about accessibility and not being caught in an echo chamber, which can happen in any sort of.
00:26:27
Speaker
you know group like you know that has a similar interest and you know it's like yes I want to give this tanning a go and you know there's a real it's a particular flavor and I think making it accessible to the public so I run public workshops that anybody can sign up for I do private workshops where it might be a very particular group so I do lots of private work or
00:26:56
Speaker
You know, I'm doing art pieces now, you know, to help raise money for Indigenous education. So I think it's sort of a multi-asseted thing that depends on the person's context. And yeah, I guess being conscious of not getting caught
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah, you know, bubble of, you know, that echo chamber that I talked about, and I think that's something that I became quickly aware of is just hanging out with like minded people is really great. You know, that can be a core.
00:27:32
Speaker
But then having those opportunities to integrate and diversity, just like nature is diverse, that interacting with diversity is sort of the spice of life. And I think that's really healthy.
00:27:51
Speaker
There's got to be boundaries in there around how we interact with certain groups and that. But I think that diversity with the mainstream, if we do believe in this interconnected entity that is Earth, then all the happenings on the Earth are interconnected. So how we relate to them, I think, is so important. Your own evolution and diversification.
00:28:17
Speaker
Has that been really conscious, something born of a sense of, you know, ill ease with that echo chamber? Or is it just your natural curiosity and something kind of pulling and tugging at you to go there? Yeah, for me a real turning point I think was
00:28:41
Speaker
this real conflict externally and externally between the world that I could imagine that it could be and that
00:28:51
Speaker
you know, we talk about in the various fields that are about, you know, progressing, you know, nature connection and that, and I could share a common thread of, you know, kind of, you know, energy descent and, you know, really becoming conscious of how we consume and sustain, like real sustainability, not the green washing sort of stuff that we see a lot of.
00:29:19
Speaker
And then, you know, so there's that picture, and then running a tanning and leather crafting business that's really trying to embody all of that knowledge, and then the sheer weight and crushing.
00:29:35
Speaker
pressure of this other reality which is a society that's in utter chaos, that's lost in this amnesia of infinite growth and consumption and
00:29:50
Speaker
I guess that's part of my own maturing process is how to have one foot in both of those worlds and use my privilege and education and life experience to be part of the solution.
00:30:05
Speaker
and I think that's an ongoing wrestle that you know like I've experienced but I see many other people experiencing in these spaces is um you know it's really great to you know be fueled by passion and to you know do these projects but at the same time we're trying to weigh up you know I'm trying to also pay uh like
00:30:29
Speaker
mortgage or you know trying to do other life things that you know it would be great if there was no fences and we were living harmoniously but there are fences and there is politics and there is legislation and so I guess it's yeah for me it's just been how to strike that balance of
00:30:56
Speaker
you know not just being like oh not tanning anymore i've just given that up and i've walked away you know which you know i would you know people would be forgiven if they thought oh yeah it doesn't really tan anymore it's like ah but it's evolved it's evolved so much that um the things that i'm doing now are projects that um
00:31:19
Speaker
you know feel so close to my heart that I feel like I'm working towards that like inspiring nature connection with kids is just so transformative because they're going to be the next generation that come through and I still value running my workshops with those that are you know preaching to the converted but I do feel that it's put me into other areas where I can
00:31:44
Speaker
you know, share these skills and practices so that, you know, they can also participate too. So it has more impact on a wider scale. Yeah, brilliant. Can you paint a picture of what that looks like? How are you fusing your ancestral crafts and social work and support work? Please tell us more.
00:32:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so I guess in a nutshell, so you mentioned outdoor health and so I've gone and done a second master's degree, so I've done eight years of university education and then, you know, ten of those years, five, less recently, five was very much dedicated to tanning, living on the land, participating in the rewilding community,
00:32:38
Speaker
really trying to embody as much of that as possible permaculture, cradle to cradle design, free economics, like food rescue, like everything you could
00:32:53
Speaker
probably throw at it and I you know to really experience it and then taking on a public health role working in a more clinical environment with schools and around how I actually worked in drug and alcohol prevention but then
00:33:14
Speaker
heard about this bush adventure therapy which I thought oh that's really interesting bush adventure therapy it's like I wonder if that's got anything to do with this like rewilding stuff and then health because they're two areas I've
00:33:31
Speaker
spent you know so much of my life in and before I know it I was heading up to just south of Sydney to the International Adventure Therapy Conference with people from all over the world as part of a global community that
00:33:51
Speaker
passionate about our nature and sustainability but how we bring that into therapy or you know working with people for better health and well-being and so a few lights just went off for me because I realized I was like wow you know this this work could have impact in this health and well-being space
00:34:20
Speaker
And so that's when I went and did the social work masters and then basically since 2019 I've just been full time just at this Bush Adventure Therapy looking at how to weave in these skills.
00:34:39
Speaker
people go okay how does that look in a practical sense Josh you know so as I mentioned to you I have about 50% of my week is one-to-one or in groups with people and we'll be going there's sort of two options you've got a journey based experience where maybe you go canoeing for a week down the Glenelg River or
00:35:06
Speaker
maybe down the Murray and you're sort of camping, you're having a fire and you're having these in
00:35:14
Speaker
intentional conversations you know where you're relating to other people that you might not necessarily relate to and it's these stories that we carry in our bodies that connect you know with other people and while tanning is a very technical skill it's actually the non-technical aspects of the skill through the practice
00:35:38
Speaker
that have become embodied and imprinted in me that now you know it's taking it will probably keep unraveling for me my life but uh at our core we are storytelling creatures and so how does that look i guess in its most fundamental form is uh storytelling and you know your um you know
00:36:03
Speaker
So I might not necessarily be facilitating a tanning workshop on the side of the river, but it's something that I might talk about or those practices are coming through the way that I'm telling stories. And I think the way we tell stories shapes our human experience. And I think the best saying to that is when we change the way we view things, the things we view change.
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah. I'm, I'm transported to the nature-based leadership training days. And that's where we met through the tanning workshop that was part of that. And being around a campfire in the bush and how quickly the trappings of modern civilization and the habits and, uh, you know, devices and inputs we think we need, how quickly that falls away and something wakes up around that fire. And yeah, it's, it's a really deep.
00:37:03
Speaker
contented, alive, thrilling feeling to be encircled with other people and with your bare feet on the ground. And I think Martin Shaw says that culture is three days deep. Like it doesn't take more than three days if you stick people out on the land to kind of revert to some older phenotype or something. Is that what you see happening when you take people out?
00:37:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And so some of the technical skills we will actually do. But in terms of that three days deep, I love that from Martin Shaw. And yeah, often the programs we try to run are longer than three days, because it takes that time for that stripping back of the busy mind and really sinking in.
00:37:53
Speaker
to I guess ourselves you know our true selves you know this ego persona driven hyper individuality that's just constantly consuming you know it takes time for that to kind of dissolve I mean three days is a bit of a ballpark figure depending but yeah usually after day three you kind of see this sinking this sort of deep breath of
00:38:23
Speaker
Ah okay I'm more here now and I might notice a bird or you know something in the environment that I didn't notice before and um and so that's yeah again linking back to tanning as a skill
00:38:42
Speaker
that's why I'm at the start of our our conversation I said I think it well I know it's more relevant today than ever before because we're so cognitive rational external focused um
00:39:00
Speaker
These practices because they're so old, you know in terms of like epigenetics I they have this kind of way of Getting down to the marrow of our beings you know to the soul to the center and waking us up, you know, and I get goosebumps just talking to you about it because
00:39:27
Speaker
You know, there's just such an emphasis in our culture about how things look and the external.
Transitioning from Nature to Daily Life
00:39:36
Speaker
And that is important. The external is, you know, very important. But I would say that this internal processing and through an embodied practice like tanning, I mean, it could be whittling. It could be your nashi, pears, drying, jamming,
00:39:54
Speaker
you know it's an embodied practice and I think that's through my journey with it I feel so lucky to combine it with mental health practice and there's all these other practices too I'm not going to go into that integrate so well with this idea of sensory motor bottom-up neurobiology the science is there and yeah it's just
00:40:21
Speaker
such an exciting time to see these old skills and how the stories can be told in new and exciting ways that engage us so that we can grow and heal the separation that so many people are experiencing.
00:40:42
Speaker
Yeah, even as we move through the conversation from that Mind's Eye campfire and back to my present moment inside, kind of surrounded by technology, I feel a small sense of the grief that I feel when I come back from a retreat like that or I come back from camping and I wonder are there perils to kind of waking up in that way and feeling
00:41:11
Speaker
feeling that yearning satisfied by being in a more evolutionarily appropriate setting and then having to come back to like the harsh fluorescent light of reality. How do people make that transition and is that something to be managed really gently coming back and forth between those worlds?
00:41:31
Speaker
Yeah, well this concept of self-compassion or radical self-acceptance and that
00:41:42
Speaker
you know even like when I use the term violence you know in a very general sense you know how we treat ourselves you know how we talk to ourselves and tend to ourselves um you know to tend gently you know to ourselves as if we would care for another you know do we care for ourselves and um you know we're in a time of such great upheaval you know if you
00:42:11
Speaker
So many graphs have this like exponential curve of just stuff hitting the fan, you know? And to put it very gently. Excrement. Excrement, hitting the fan in so many directions. And yeah, that, you know, like we sort of have two choices, you know, it's either through love or fear. And I think for me, a lot of it,
00:42:41
Speaker
early on coming in was a lot of fear based you know fear that all the animals are going to become extinct and you know fear that
00:42:53
Speaker
you know things are going to go completely wrong and the earth's going to die and you know and just forgetting about that love and compassion uh that's needed and um you know that it's going you know violence is not going to reduce violence like that's you know so it's um you know we're seeing that on a global
00:43:15
Speaker
scale to one of the best images that if I can transport the listener you know imagine being out in space and just looking back at the earth this pale blue dot
00:43:30
Speaker
as Carl I think Carl Sagan described it as the pale blue dot and you know there's no nations it's just this one giant kind of biological spaceship basically you know floating through space together you know and looking down we see you know all these going and happenings
00:43:52
Speaker
you know, all happening across the planet and there's no separation there, there's that integrated kind of hole and I think that image is really powerful, you know, I've literally got a print on my wall to remind me, you know, to be compassionate to myself but to my neighbour too because we're all here trying to find our way and
00:44:21
Speaker
Yeah so I think how I did how I've been dealing with it is very much that self-compassion. I do need constant reminding because of the busyness and demands of of life or we see like I see something that's that causes internal conflict and it's yeah coming back to
00:44:42
Speaker
not being submissive but surrendering, you know, letting go. Otherwise that resistance and pushing is only going to cause more conflict.
00:44:56
Speaker
Yeah, that was a nice intergalactic trip. I don't want to skim over your expertise in terms of the growing base of evidence around how fundamental connection and contact with nature
00:45:15
Speaker
taking for granted that we are actually nature ourselves. But how fundamental that is to human wellbeing. You said some really cool terms earlier, like neurobiological, something or other. Are you able to elaborate a little on our need for that connection with land, with country, however you want to
Nature Connection and Mental Well-being
00:45:33
Speaker
frame it? Yeah. Well, I think probably the best theory on that is probably attachment theory. So, um, and I'm going to expand
00:45:44
Speaker
the theory a little bit but at least that as a base theory can help us to understand the importance of relating and so early on you know when you're when you're born your primary attachments are your parents but also if you expand that bubble you know your attachments are also going to be to the place that you belong and
00:46:09
Speaker
And that's why I love the word belonging because it's to be long somewhere, you know, to be somewhere for some time, because it takes time to really sink into a space, you know, to recognize and for knowledge passing. And so.
00:46:30
Speaker
If that primary attachment and the relationships that we have, and we need that reciprocity between the attachments and there's sort of three main styles of attachment. There's the ideal, which is secure. So that could be seen as belonging.
00:46:48
Speaker
And then you have insecure types of attachments, which are broken up into like an anxious attachment. So you're trying to get the attachment, but it's just it's not coming to you. Or there's a void and attachment, which is I know I need the attachment, but I don't like it's a pushing away.
00:47:13
Speaker
You know, and there's there is a third type, which is disorganized or anxious avoidant. And but we won't go into that. That's like a very small percentage. But if we talk about that in terms of, you know, relating
00:47:33
Speaker
to the planet, I guess the theory of attachment kind of helps us, you know, in terms of being secure, is safety. And if you look at general society, like, I guess we're talking and, you know, I speak for my own ancestry, colonial settlers, you know, we've come over, I've traced my history, you know, Scottish to the Isle of Mull, 11th century,
00:48:03
Speaker
probably come over here to find farming land, dispossession and genocide. So much trauma. You know, does the word secure and safe resonate with that? Not at all. That's like horrendous. And in terms of developing safe
00:48:20
Speaker
safety and relational, that intergenerational trauma, to use trauma language, and then with the neurobiological framework, so we talk about trauma-informed, is that their patterns, but their adaptive patterns that may have worked at the time, but have imprinted on us, that now in today's society,
00:48:48
Speaker
have become maladaptive so they don't service any longer and but to process that you know it takes time and it takes awareness and so it it hangs in the shadows and most people deal with it through consuming because it helps us to distract ourselves
00:49:11
Speaker
from the discomfort of you know this story that's been quite horrendous you know and actually is contributing to how we relate to our parents or if you see the earth as the mother you know are we securely attached to our mother
00:49:32
Speaker
And I think we're asking that question in different ways, maybe not in the way that I framed it here using attachment theory, which I've never done. But you asked a question, what kind of theory could we look at here to explain this? And attachment theory is great to explain human to human or an anthropocentric approach, or if you want to go more than human,
00:49:59
Speaker
is also our security and safety attachment to the natural world. And I'd say that most people probably haven't even thought about that.
00:50:11
Speaker
That's so bloody cool. And I feel like that is extremely apt because my feed, my Instagram feed is filled with attachment slides talking about, you know, relationships, but to actually extrapolate and to extend that into my place and the place I belong and the place I'm trying to really relate to as a secure, a reciprocally beneficial kind of thing, then that absolutely makes sense. And then too, I suppose what springs to mind is,
00:50:40
Speaker
And I'm not super well versed in this stuff, but like an insecure attachment or avoidant attachment. There's a lot of maybe exaggerated fears or things that we're responding and reacting to that then don't help the health or quality of that relationship. And I feel that this really works as an analogy or as a theory. Yeah. No, I'm so glad that it's landing and I hope that the listener it's landing for as well.
00:51:08
Speaker
book I would recommend and maybe you can add it in there is attached is a really good book to start with and and yeah exactly that that um like say relationship to snakes you know like people like a petrify you know shovel you know kill obviously if it's threatening and endangering people but
00:51:31
Speaker
Yeah, you can really see how people kind of relate. And I think attachment theory, yeah, is a really good analogy.
00:51:39
Speaker
Wow, nice. Yeah, I think that's really brilliant and I hope that that might serve you in the future or something that you could explore or express because it's really helpful. And yeah, in terms of like our physical wellbeing, our mental wellbeing, what is there to understand about how nature connection can really assist us and support us because
00:52:02
Speaker
I have this theory of everything where it's like, we're really not looking at the fundamental things that we're deficient in. We're somehow problem solving at this higher level with pharmaceuticals or really complicated interventions. And it's like, hey, we just need to go outside. Are there these really simple points of connection and nourishment that we're just not getting that you see as being fulfilled when you're working in that space?
00:52:30
Speaker
Look, yeah, there is a long kind of list with that. I mean, probably immediately that comes to mind is what we call screen based living. So studies have been done.
00:52:46
Speaker
like in the west I think I don't want to quote anything in case I get it wrong but basically what the research is showing the amount of hours that people are spending on screens like that is so drastic compared to you know I mean we've only had screens for a very short
00:53:07
Speaker
developmental time for the human evolution. And we don't know the long term impacts on that. You know, we are seeing higher rates of things like autism, ADHD, you know, these sort of
00:53:26
Speaker
diagnoses that are related to focus and intention and capacity to deal with conflict, social and emotional skills. So much of my work is in that social emotional realm. How do we communicate?
00:53:49
Speaker
So yeah, I see so much of that. And so in the mental health space, yeah, nature is right there. It's right here. It's everywhere. And it can be accessed wherever you are is nature. You know, obviously we've got like
00:54:11
Speaker
the human-made kind of imposing structures but in terms of green and blue spaces there's this other theory called attention restoration theory so just you know if the listener is going oh I've been feeling really tired you know
00:54:31
Speaker
are you breaking up the periods of sitting with getting up going into a green space and just spending 15 minutes just noticing what's around you and that attention restoration because otherwise
00:54:48
Speaker
the human body is like a transmitter and a receiver and we're constantly in the transmitting realm so we're just bombarded with so much information that we can't process and so there's a time like in Taoism there's a time for doing but it's also knowing a time for not doing and nature is perfect for the not doing and being
00:55:19
Speaker
So yeah, we're human doings when we really need to learn how to be human beings. Yeah, I love that. A reminder in our language of how we are productivity focused and can switch that around. How does that look for you, Josh? You know, as the holder of all of this knowledge and wisdom and lived experience, how are you integrating these things into your everyday life?
00:55:48
Speaker
There is such an addictive element to what we're talking about, especially with screens and certain platforms as well. It's insidious. It's predatory. How do you actually interrupt that kind of predation? And yeah, what are your practices around this like beingness?
00:56:04
Speaker
Yeah like I have a lot of practices that I go to whether like yesterday it was like you know I walk along the river and you know and other times you know I've got two beautiful dogs and I walk out into the backyard and
00:56:28
Speaker
you know play with them and sometimes this is spontaneous but yeah like you said like I am human doing sometimes like you know I'm trying to juggle all these things so yeah it's just a constant reminding
00:56:45
Speaker
being self compassionate that if I fall off the wagon a bit and I I noticed that you know I've just binged three episodes of a particular show I'm really enjoying and not and not condemning myself about it but
00:57:00
Speaker
you know, reflecting on, you know, am I balancing this? How's like just checking in with my body? How am I feeling? Am I feeling tired? Do I need to take a stint like a proper break, you know, for five weeks and you know, so it's yeah, I think it's about being realistic with yourself and self compassionate and
00:57:25
Speaker
You know, I have time in the morning to journal. When I wake up, that's another practice I do. Journaling's really good. And I love the outdoors. So on the weekend, I was sailing. So, and that's a really slow, you're just powered by the wind, you know, and
00:57:46
Speaker
And it can be really hard to carve out those time frames, but I think as time goes on, rather than like, oh yeah, we should really do that, is I now then go, okay, what day are we gonna do that? Like, let's actually put this into action. I mean, there's lots of spontaneous things you can do.
00:58:08
Speaker
But in the busyness of dealing with mainstream demands, I think one has to really carve out those times. Not as, oh that would be nice, it's actually
00:58:24
Speaker
I need to do that because that's going to help me with the other parts of my life. So yeah, it can be quite a challenge. I do find that each week I'm having to really have a check-in with myself about that.
00:58:40
Speaker
I mean, that's, it's comforting to know that many of us, most of us, all of us potentially experienced that challenge and ongoing tension. As we move towards the end of the conversation, I'd really love to bring in
00:58:54
Speaker
your vision to really frame this in the positive because we have spoken about, yeah, surrendering and finding that balance and maybe some compromises. What is the world you think is possible if we did take up more of this, you know, this connection and presence in our life? Yeah, and I'll attempt to bring the tanning back into the conversation as
Future Visions and Episode Conclusion
00:59:18
Speaker
well. Hey, that'd be great. Yeah, so...
00:59:25
Speaker
Yeah, the world that is possible. I mean, you know, it's a collective dream, you know, it's something that we're all participating in. But I guess from my little patch here on what we're on country, um, you know, I guess, yeah, as I get further along the journey of like tanning and leather crafting and, um, you know, working in mental health now and
00:59:54
Speaker
uh like I've taken up a position with a university as well so I'm marking papers and moving into that more academic kind of world as well which is exciting and terrifying but I guess the world that I'm kind of imagining is you know a world where we're
01:00:16
Speaker
co-designing, co-learning and it's about relationships and how we support each other you know with that learning and respecting or primarily ourselves but each other through that process and I think
01:00:37
Speaker
the biggest thing I've seen is yeah that othering that happens with you know well I've got this theory this practice they're the problem over there those people that are causing us all the problems and I think
01:00:58
Speaker
that othering and separation at its core is where a lot of our problems are coming from. And so to weave in the tanning, tanning is such an old practice that in my workshops, and this is just from years of observation, like I get from
01:01:19
Speaker
you know people that are you know vegan but are wanting to rescue the animal skins I get people that are shooting and very much carnivores I get a full spectrum of people in my workshops and it's interesting they start chatting and they realize that they have more in common than you think and they're passionate about accessing nature and
01:01:48
Speaker
that how good is it to be out in the bush and you know and sharing these stories and bringing people together you know from um you know what appears on paper or even in the news is two very conflicting sides and yet at the core you know they're sharing a story together and um
01:02:13
Speaker
Yeah, so my vision, which maybe others share as well, is just really about breaking down the barriers that are causing us this experience separation from
01:02:32
Speaker
each other but also from ourselves you know we're in particularly in the west you know we are very confused with you know who we are what we're doing here and I think I sort of see us yeah settling and becoming clearer about the way forward together. What is the best way for people to to find you to engage with your work? Are there
01:03:01
Speaker
Are there workshops you're running? Can you point us in the direction of more Josh?
01:03:04
Speaker
Like I'm not really on social media anymore. That was a choice that I have made. But I do run a public workshop. If people are interested in tanning one that I've kept because we've got a really good relationship with series Melbourne in Brunswick and
01:03:32
Speaker
Anyone can sign up and do that workshop. I have one coming up in April and then one later in the year you can just look up series Melbourne tanning workshop. I'll be the only tanning workshop there I promise. And that's a you don't need any prior knowledge for that so you can come along and you can learn some of the hands-on skills that I've talked about here.
01:03:55
Speaker
And if you're interested in private workshops, particularly for large groups, I've worked with school groups.
01:04:06
Speaker
uh, rewilding groups, outdoor groups. Um, you can email me, I'm sure you can pop the email, Katie on the phone. I'll link all of this. Yeah. Yeah. So the bush tannery at gmail.com, if you pop that there, they can email through and, um, maybe we can even have a chat if you've got a particular project or idea, whether that's tanning or if it's for a mental health program, maybe it's both.
01:04:33
Speaker
It was such a treat to hear from you and your world today, Josh. Thank you so much for making the time. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on the Rescilience podcast, Katie. It's so awesome to see you again. And yeah, I look forward to seeing more episodes pop up and I hope whoever's listening that you found this really enjoyable. I've really enjoyed chatting to you today.
01:05:03
Speaker
You'll find all the good things we referenced in the show notes, including Josh's blissfully limited online presence and contact details. I highly recommend getting to his tanning workshops at series in Naam, Melbourne if this conversation has piqued your interest.
01:05:19
Speaker
It's another mystery guest next week. This podcast is in no way strategic or structured. Rather, I really enjoy seeing how the cookie crumbles and which conversation wants to come up for air. Some people have told me that a podcast each week is actually kind of mad, that they're not getting time to listen before the next episode drops. What do you think? Is it a bit of a frenzied schedule? I don't know. I'm someone who hangs out for my favorite podcast to refresh every single week. A glutton for audio content.
01:05:49
Speaker
So, each Monday it is, for now. But if you have any thoughts on the timing, the format, the guests, the questions, or any other ways this concept of resilience can be most in service of a less bullshit, more real shit life,
01:06:05
Speaker
let me know. You can email me at katie at katie.com.au or attempt to send me a message on Instagram which is perilous to say the least but I will try and get back to you eventually. I loved hanging out with you this week and see you next.