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Can this please be an emotional low point?
38 Plays4 months ago
For a few glorious moments, it felt like the Sounders had scored a hard-fought win over the top team in the Western Conference.
The seeming clincher came deep into stoppage time when Reed Baker-Whiting intercepted a pass, drove forward, shrugged off a defender and calmly delivered a pass to Danny Musovski, who hit a sliding shot into the net.
Musovski, who has had a few terrible misses in recent weeks, looked particularly relieved.
Baker-Whiting, who has been working himself back from a six-month injury absence, let out a roar that had to be particularly cathartic.
Except it didn’t happen. Well, at least not officially.
VAR flagged Musovski’s challenge that started the sequence for review and the referee ultimately decided to wave off hte goal.
Less than a minute after the ball was put back into play, RSL had the equalizer when the Sounders failed three separate opportunities to clear the danger.
Instead of a potential season-defining win, the Sounders were instead stuck with more frustrating dropped points.
In a season of depressing results, this feels like a low point.
Jeremiah and Aaron discuss.
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Transcript
Introduction by Christian Roldan and Jordan Morris
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, this is Christian Roldan. And Jordan Morris from the Seattle Sounders Football Club. And you're listening to NOS Arietes. This episode of NOS Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of NOS Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounders supporters. They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, the Pacific Northwest.
00:00:28
Speaker
A.O. Shen! Let's go! What a save by Fry! The Seattle Sounders have done it! MLS Cup win! Here come three years through the middle to crown it the vehicle! And now they truly can't stop the celebrations. It's the Sounders' MLS Cup! Niko Liddo leaves out!
Jeremiah Shan and Co-host Introduce the Episode
00:01:12
Speaker
Is that what you young people call twerking?
00:01:29
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Nos Adietes, sponsored by Full Poll Wines and our subscribers. We're recording on Thursday, May 30th, 2024. I am your host, Jeremiah Shan. Joining me today is my co-host, Aaron Campo and our engineer, Lickett.
Controversial VAR Decision and Its Impact
00:01:44
Speaker
Well, for a few glorious moments, it felt like the Sounders had scored a hard fought win over the top team in the Western Conference.
00:01:51
Speaker
The seeming clincher came deep into stoppage time when Reed Baker Whiting, intercepted a pass, drove forward, shrugged off a fender like it was absolutely nothing, and then calmly delivered a perfect pinpoint pass to Danny Masofsky, who hit a sliding shot into the net. Masofsky, who had a terrible missus
00:02:09
Speaker
in the last couple weeks, looked particularly relieved. Baker Whiting, who had been working himself back from a six-month injury absence, let out a roar that had to be particularly cathartic. Except, it didn't happen. Well, at least not officially. BAR flagged Musowski's challenge that started the sequence for review, and the referee ultimately decided to wave off the goal.
00:02:28
Speaker
Less than a minute after the ball was back in play, RSL had an equalizer when the Sounders failed, three separate opportunities to clear the danger. Instead of a potential season defining win, the Sounders were instead stuck with more frustrating dropped points. In a season of depressing results, this feels an awful lot like a low point. That six points they've now dropped at home on late goals, leaving them with an abysmal 1-1-5 record at home.
Sounders' Struggles with Maintaining Leads
00:02:56
Speaker
Aaron, you were in the stands for this one. How would you describe your feeling? You said that it could have been a season defining win. And I actually think it ended up being season defining in its own way. Yeah, it just felt like so much of the same.
00:03:16
Speaker
at the end of the game in a game that hadn't really felt that way to me. Up to that point, you know, it was just it was such a kick to the gut because that swing from, oh, my God, they actually managed to kill off a game, not just hang on to the win, but kill off a game. Yes. Two thoughts, they mulch it was just such a such an unpleasant swing and.
00:03:41
Speaker
I didn't think they played poorly for most of the game at all. RSL, I said earlier this year that I was very skeptical of RSL. And I'll eat crow. They've consistently been a pretty good team. And I thought the Sounders did really well up until the first goal. And then from that point on, it was just like they forgot how to play soccer.
00:04:07
Speaker
I'm always so
Impact of Confidence on Sounders’ Performance
00:04:08
Speaker
skeptical of confidence playing this big of a role in professional sports because I feel like professional athletes just have so much confidence that you have to do to get to this level. That it just can't really be a factor, but I can't think of anything else. I really can't think of anything else that would explain a team that has the talent and the ability to
00:04:33
Speaker
have all of this possession, right? That ultimately doesn't really go anywhere, but it's like in a game like this, that's all you need to do. You've got to lead, you're at home, your opponents are tired, they've been chasing the game. All you got to do is hang on the ball, they get a lead and they can't, they suddenly can't do that. It's, and it just feels so much like they're playing scared so much of the time, especially when they've got to lead.
RSL's Advantage with Depth and Freshness
00:04:56
Speaker
Well, I will say one thing that was definitely working in RSL's favor was that they rotated their lineup a lot more than sounders had. So they had a bunch of starters that were waiting to come on. And I said, like, I haven't gone back and really done a hard analysis on this, but my my it feels like
00:05:17
Speaker
a lot of those starters were coming on around the same time that Rust-Nak scored. And so they were, and the other thing was that they got a, I didn't realize this in real time, but they got a sixth sub because of a concussion replacement. And they actually were able to do it over four windows, which, you know, is totally within the rules, but it does sort of like, they were able to get more, my point is they were able to get even more fresh legs on the field. And the sounders,
00:05:45
Speaker
don't have nearly the same depth right now. You know, they did bring in Josh Atencio, Reed Baker Whiting, I think, a solid sub. But then you also were bringing in, you know, Paul Rothrock. And then who was the other sub? Gosh, can you remember? Was it was a baker? Oh, Nettie Masovsky. And, you know, like, those aren't those aren't I don't think those are bad players, but they aren't, you know,
00:06:10
Speaker
Most of those players are not players you were expecting to start, right? Yeah. And I mean, I do think that the subs the sounders made were fine.
Critique of Sounders' Substitutions
00:06:21
Speaker
Like I saw a lot of people questioning bringing off Christian. I actually thought Reed played well in his place. Yeah. I think it's, you know, Jordan coming off for essentially for Josh attention.
00:06:32
Speaker
You know, maybe that was a little defensive, but theoretically, the kind of player you want, like, I think Josh attention was like a perfect kind of player to help see out a game. You know, Paul, Paul, Paul Rothrock for, uh, who he would have come in for, um,
00:06:50
Speaker
Jel Paolo, no, I guess, no, Paul Rothog was for, yeah, for Jel Paolo. And Danny Mosawski for, for, for Royal Ruedias. I think that, that made sense. If anything, I actually wouldn't have mind seen Ruedias come out a little earlier. You know, this was a frustrating game, at least for me, for, for Ruedias. And there was one play that really stood out to me. Reed Baker Whiting was on a break around the 74th, 75th minute.
00:07:17
Speaker
And, and roll is up against two center backs and he just stops his run. And, and it's like, he was expecting an, or maybe it looked like maybe he was expecting a slightly earlier ball, but like.
00:07:30
Speaker
Just continue the run. What are you doing? And it looked like you just was out of legs. Yeah. It's, I mean, and it's not shocking that he's out of legs, right? Because he's playing so many minutes. And I, it's interesting because I actually thought that, that Brian's comments in the post game, uh, where he said, you know, the subs were the subs because we needed legs. We needed. And I, I think that that's true. I mean, it was pretty clear that a lot of players were totally gassed.
00:08:00
Speaker
Um, and yeah, I mean, you, obviously you'd rather be the team bringing on your starters to see that game, but you've got to bring somebody on because it wasn't working with you guys that were in there. And I didn't think, I mean.
00:08:15
Speaker
Would I rather have a fit and fresh Joao Paulo than Paul Rothrock? Yeah, of course I would. But that's not the... And he was coming on the 92nd minute. He looked like he was spent. Yes. And that's not a good situation, obviously, to be in. But I do... I mean, it's like...
Player Performances and Tactical Analysis
00:08:36
Speaker
It's not that I don't think that there are lots of criticisms that can be made of, of Brian, but at certain points in the year, it's been, he never wants to make subs. He's not making subs early enough. It's not doing anything soon enough. And now it's like, how is he bringing, how is he making all these changes and bringing on these guys? It's like, you gotta, you gotta pick one man. And, and I, you have to expect professionals to be able to see out that game, uh, more effectively than, than they did. And.
00:09:05
Speaker
And the players who I think really didn't cover themselves in glory were some of the players that you would expect, you know, like, like knew who all of a sudden really wasn't, you know, he kind of got invisible after the after the goal. Like he was like the defenders that you are kind of relying on to sort of start the possession.
00:09:28
Speaker
were not like they were effectively just booting it out every single time they had an opportunity which you know is is not the craziest uh the craziest plan to do but you it's tough to do that for 20 minutes even when you're at home yeah and that was and that was sort of a point that rosenac made in the in the post game which was like look if you need to hold on for five minutes that's
00:09:53
Speaker
You know, that's soccer. Like, you just got to kind of do that. But if you're going to try to just hold on for 20, 30 minutes, whether you're home or away, you're sort of inviting trouble. And really, that was the situation here. You know, I put together a bunch of
Sounders' Inability to Capitalize Despite Dominance
00:10:11
Speaker
stats on this.
00:10:13
Speaker
One of the ones that really struck me was that through the first, where the Sounders really dominated this game was the beginning of the second half until the goal. So during those 25 minutes, the Sounders did not allow RSL to have a single touch in their offensive third.
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah, there was just basically a wall about 40 yards from goal that kept RSL from getting anywhere near goal. The Sounders had a seven to zero shots advantage during that stretch. They were outpassed. They had about 58% of the possession. They were they were dominant. And, you know, they were putting RSL under a lot of pressure, even the free kick that Roastnex scores that comes from a foul that was
00:10:58
Speaker
born out of the Sounders pushing the, the RSL defense, the RSL defense was scrambling during that entire first 25 minutes. It was, it was really encouraging play, I thought. Yeah. And then from that, and then after Russ next score, just like all of a sudden a switch goes off.
00:11:16
Speaker
Uh, the sounders end up getting outshot from that point forward 10 to
Losing Momentum and Control Issues
00:11:20
Speaker
two. They are out past basically four to one, which was like 200 to 60 something or whatever over the last 20 minutes. And then in the, just in the last 10 or from the 85th minute on RSL got took eight shots and almost all of its XG was, was piled into that. Like last 10, 15 minutes of, of gameplay, just.
00:11:45
Speaker
a complete capitulation in terms of like allowing the game to be dictated.
00:11:50
Speaker
Yeah. And it's just, if this were a young team, if this were a team that had never had success, if this were a team playing on the road against, you know, against RSL, it wouldn't be excusable. I think it would still be a really frustrating performance, but it would be a little more understandable. But, you know, it's like you said, like the players, I think that we're really letting the team down post goal. We're not the younger guys.
00:12:15
Speaker
You know, they were they were guys like new who, as you said, and anymore or or Alex rolled on. Yeah. These are guys that have to be expected to step up. Right. Right. Because a lot of them, if they're not, if they can't do that, then I don't know exactly what it is they're bringing. Right. Right. And they know how to pass. They know how to possess. It's maybe the only thing they know how to do.
00:12:41
Speaker
And at least repeatably. And, you know, it's just frustrating because when you've got a team on the ropes, now obviously you don't want to go crazy and leave yourself open, right? When you've got a lead, you don't want to have the cliche of getting a goal and then immediately allowing one, right? So I get that, but just to completely take your foot off the gas to the extent that they did. And, um,
00:13:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's just, they seem like a team that does not have any faith in themselves to get more than a goal game at home. And so they go into these situations where they're like, okay, that's our goal. We've got half an hour to see this out. That almost feels like it's the mindset. And it's why, if you're a vibes guy, which I guess I increasingly kind of am,
00:13:39
Speaker
It's why that the the shift from Masavski getting the goal, the team closing out a game, killing off a game, just all of the positive energy that that brings to having that wiped out and then having it be. The same old story, a late goal at home in a game that you should win. I just don't know how much.
Potential in Young Players but Missed Opportunities
00:14:06
Speaker
How many more of these things their psyches collectively contain? How often can this happen to you without you just beginning to believe that that's just who you are fundamentally as a team? Yeah. One other thing, I just wanted to put a bow on the sub situation. I thought Reid was one of the only guys that was actually pushing play. He was fantastic. He did it a few times. I really was encouraged by him. I thought,
00:14:36
Speaker
Like I said, even though that play didn't count, it did happen. And I thought he looked really good on it, and it was encouraging to see. And I hope he can at least build on that, because I think he's a player who can potentially sort of change the trajectory of the season. If he can get more involved, he's a player who brings something to the table that the Sounders don't really have, which is a defensive player who can potentially affect the attack as well.
00:15:06
Speaker
And I, you know, and there were some encouraging performances this one. I actually really liked Obed Vargas again. I think he's, you know, this is, I think his second straight game, or no, I guess he started last game at, at right mid, but he's looked, he's got a, he's got a series of strong performances now that he's been able to stack on one another. I am really happy with his progression over the last, you know, during this, this stretch of, of games.
00:15:31
Speaker
that really started with the philadelphia union game where he he sort of broke out and he's you know he he was thirty-five for forty-one passing it was two for two and dribbles eight for sixteen on duels he almost scored he had a great strike that force gavin beavers into you know one of beavers it should be said this the ninth-year-old goalkeeper for rsl
00:15:52
Speaker
He looked really good in the first meeting against the Sounders. He had a shutout. He looked really good in this one too. Most of the Sounders' chances came on relatively long distance shots, but they had a couple good looks that he handled really well.
00:16:09
Speaker
you know, the one the one he didn't handle was Rosnak's free kick, which, you know, that was another positive. I thought Rosnak's free kick was spectacular. I love the way that he basically dicked a, you know, he was basically giving all the signal that he was getting ready to cross it. You know, he was pointing at guys. He, you know, when he's right before he puts his head down to strike the ball, he's like looking to make a pass and then he just bends it around the wall and inside the
00:16:38
Speaker
inside the near post. Just thought that was a great and he clearly was very, you know, very happy with himself. It was first goal of the season, you know, coming into the row for him as well, which is nice to
Mentality Struggles Post-Goals
00:16:50
Speaker
see. Those are good things. But they are absolutely overshadowed by
00:16:55
Speaker
The general inability of this team to close out games and it's and they've gotten away with it a few times too and i you know after the game rusnack actually pointed this out that it's like you can look at that philadelphia game where they.
00:17:10
Speaker
We're up three zero at halftime and then they spend the entire second half just like holding on for dear life. Essentially, you know, you look at the, uh, the, the St. Louis game, this, this, this, this last game, they go up two zero. And again, they sort of stop playing and you know, they, those are two, I think a little bit more excusable because those are on the road, but.
00:17:31
Speaker
again, like they just went from looking really good through, you know, taking the lead and then they stop looking really good. And once, as soon as they give up the lead and I don't know, I, I, I, I, it's gotta be a meant, you know, both.
00:17:47
Speaker
Rusnak and Schmetzer called it a mentality issue where guys have to sort of just want the ball and they need to be willing to connect the passes and they need to be showing the passes and it's, you know, it's it's a multi-part thing and it is sort of like, you can't you just got to get out of that siege mentality and you got to play like you're still trying to
00:18:08
Speaker
still trying to win the game, not just sort of protect it. And I don't know that there's an easy answer for that because it does feel like the more it happens like this, the more it's going to happen. Yeah, because I do think it's clearly a mentality thing. I think you're totally right. I think the players that have called it out are totally right, that it's clearly
00:18:38
Speaker
something wrong psychologically. And those patterns are hard to break out of. I mean, they're hard to break out of in regular life, right? For normal people. I can't imagine with the pressure that professional athletes have how much harder it could potentially be to break out of those kind of mentality, you know, that kind of mentality. And I almost wonder if like, they need another game that they just win quite comfortably.
Home Performance Concerns
00:19:04
Speaker
to sort of hit the reset, but the problem is that you have to score goals to do that. And they're, they're just not doing that. You know, one of my, sort of my pet conspiracy theories this year has been it's all the turf's fault, right? That the turf is so slow. And I was excited, you know, the rain was not fun to be in, but I was like, well, hey, the turf's wet, you know, at least maybe we'll get another five goal game. And you think the ball moved better.
00:19:26
Speaker
better yesterday. It did. I mean, there was clearly a difference, but at the end of the day, they still only put the ball in the net once. I guess they did actually put the ball in the net twice, but they only wanted them counted. So, yeah. And I, so I don't know. And even, you know, it's like you said, they had a game where they were up big on the road against Philly and it ended up being a lot closer than it should have been and really same against St. Louis.
00:19:52
Speaker
Even the positives. Yeah, even you can even look at the Louisville game where they won. They won in penalties, but they were up to zero in that game. Yeah. And, you know, they didn't put it away or, you know, they could have won the the Phoenix game more easily than they did. And they didn't put that one away. So it's like it is. You know, I will say that if there's one thing I have started to believe about this team is that they are more comfortable grinding out games than they are.
00:20:22
Speaker
then they are sort of opening up. And in that way, I suppose they are maybe well suited to go for it in the Open Cup. And at this point, that is really, I would hope that the organization, that everyone is sort of looking at the Open Cup. This is our chance to have a, like, who knows what's going to happen from here on out, but the Open Cup is here. We know this is an opportunity.
00:20:52
Speaker
And hopefully that's the way they look at it. It feels much more attainable than anything else in MLS right now, which to me is really dependent on whether or not they're going to ever get Pedro de la Vega to get right.
00:21:07
Speaker
And I mean, I, I came into this week somewhat optimistic that, that, you know, they were being straight with us about his injury situation. Uh, I don't know. I don't know if he's going to play against sporting Kansas city. He obviously didn't play against, uh, against RSL. And I did talk to some people in the organization and it sounds like the issue is not that he is really badly hurt. It's that.
00:21:37
Speaker
He can't get through. They need him to be training at a higher level than he's training at. And like, I guess he's saying like, Hey, I just want to play. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. We need you to be training. We need you to like really training at a high level so that we can rely on you to stay healthy. Right. And so it's like sort of this ramping up process. And it's like every time they ramp them up.
00:22:00
Speaker
he feels some discomfort and so they bring him back down and so it's like this incremental situation where they keep trying to ramp him up and hopefully they figure it out and get him right because he is a lot of fun to watch and I'm starting to think that it's like him and Reed are the two players that are potential variables that can maybe change the trajectory of this team but right now they are just not
00:22:28
Speaker
a good offensive team. They are just, they are just, I mean, they're, they're, they're averaging, they've got 14 open or non penalty goals in 16 games.
00:22:41
Speaker
It's just, it's dire. Uh, they are not scoring goals with any regularity.
Middling Performance and Lack of Firepower
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah. I think that since the opening five games, since that stretch, the team has been sort of the downside version of the team. We kind of expected coming into the year, right? Which was a playoff team that has a good enough defense to grind out results and
00:23:08
Speaker
and enough of an offense that they can score enough to win a few games and very infrequently get just blown out of games. They're playing like a decent-ish or getting results like a decent-ish middle of the pack playoff team since those first five games. They're basically playing at like a 1.5
00:23:31
Speaker
pace since those first five games. Yeah. And that's not good. That's not what anybody expects. But I think, you know, when we talked about this team and what we expected of them coming into the year, that was what we sort of identified as like, this is very possible that they could be like this. Right. And that they just don't have enough firepower. And and I think that that opening five games is it reasonably should have made everything that came after it feel worse. Mm hmm.
00:24:00
Speaker
But they could play this way that they've been playing the rest of the season and probably get into the playoffs. And, you know, if they get into the playoffs, they think they're actually set up pretty well for the playoffs. Right. Just the way the team is built. Yeah. But they have some really, really glaring weaknesses that.
00:24:19
Speaker
are just so frustrating because they don't seem like I get that they're not going to be an offensive juggernaut with this team. But all the stuff we've been talking about in this episode about their inability to close out games, there's no reasonable explanation for that in my mind. That is the roster. Right. And I do wonder I was kind of thinking about this earlier today. If having a striker like Raul as your main outlet,
00:24:47
Speaker
When you're in the kind of situations they've been in and his just inability to do a whole lot past the 45th minute is potentially part of that. Um, it's not like misogyny has been great as an outlet and keep in possession, but, um,
00:25:05
Speaker
But Roll does not do anything to help keep possession. He doesn't. I mean, that's honestly the biggest, my biggest gripe with him is not that he isn't a, you know, whatever. Like I was talking to someone yesterday and they're like, look, if he can give you a goal from nothing, you got to, that's what you got to take right now.
00:25:24
Speaker
And, you know, he's going to end up with someone told me that you'd end up with like 15, 18 goals. I'm just like, where are you getting that number? Like you think he's going to score 10 more penalties? What like, I don't understand. Like he might score. Five more open play goals this year. I think that's a high end to me. That's like, that's the high end expectation. And that would put him on 12 goals. If you, maybe he'll grab a penalty or two, I suppose, but
00:25:53
Speaker
this is not
00:26:10
Speaker
He's just so, he is a one trick pony at this point. And that one trick is a cool trick, but it's not going to win you gain. I mean, it's like he's just too much of a non-factor in possession. If he was having the kind of no scoring season that Nelson Valdez had,
00:26:33
Speaker
I think that it would be infinitely better. I think if he had fewer goals, but was doing everything else as well. He was pressing and he was holding up. I think that the team would have scored more goals overall. I really do. I think he's cost the team goals just with his inability to really do anything else. It's painful to say that. I love Raul.
00:26:56
Speaker
I just, I understand that the fixture congestion, the injury situation, you've got a limited number of bodies. He's going to get more minutes than anybody wants, but I'm going to be upset if he starts against sporting KC. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I do think to me, the one, the one area that I'm willing to be a little bit more lenient about is.
00:27:23
Speaker
There aren't great options right now, I suppose, like, unless you really think Danny Masovsky would be a better starter. I'm not sure moving like Jordan to the nine makes a lot of sense. If you're just talking about bringing in Dylan Teves, Paul Rothrock,
00:27:41
Speaker
who also would be potentially, I guess those are the two main options, right? At this point, I think I would probably rather see Tevez at this point, honestly, than Raul. But yeah, I don't know if I would really quite go that far. But I mean, I'm sympathetic to the idea that it could be I wouldn't mind seeing that option. It's it is there were
00:28:01
Speaker
I just feel like if you're gonna play, if you're gonna start roll, you gotta get him out at around 60 or 70. You just can't let him go 80, 90 minutes every game the way that he's going right now. I would say that's my biggest complaint is just the way that he's, he's not just starting, it's that he's staying in games way longer than it seems like he should be. And I guess that's one area I would criticize Ryan over in this game.
00:28:26
Speaker
Yeah. Bring in Musofsky earlier. Yeah. It's every game. And I do, like, at this point... Move Jordan up to the nine. Bring Atencio in. Right. You know, that kind of thing. I do wonder, too, if Musofsky is a better option right
Raul Ruidiaz's Effectiveness as Striker
00:28:40
Speaker
now. Like, he obviously hasn't set the world on fire. He might. But I just... I'd like to see it, you know? I would just like to see it, because we kind of know what we're getting from Raul at this point.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't know what it hurts to give him one game off to see how it looks. Right. Uh, I, I also, it's tough when you're seeing roll start two games, you know, in a week, the way that he, or a three moment to, I guess it was two games this week. Yeah. Or was it three? No, it was two. It was just two Saturday and, and, uh, Wednesday, but you know, and I, I, I think it's great. Like roll to his credit.
00:29:16
Speaker
got himself fit this year. I think he may have already played more minutes than he did last year, which, hey.
00:29:23
Speaker
I'm thrilled. Good for him. That's great. I think on some level, if you want to reward that work, if he's doing what you're asking him to do, especially when you're down like this, that's fine, but you don't, again, you don't need to plan 80 minutes. You don't have to plan 80 minutes. This all leads to, and I think we probably need to talk about this, and you were in the stand, so maybe you have a better sense of this,
00:29:48
Speaker
I was, you know, the announced attendance was like 29,000 and change. That's the lowest announced attendance since June 17, 2009, at least non-COVID impacted attendance.
00:30:03
Speaker
That was before the Sounders expanded seating in the expansion year.
Attendance Drop and Fan Engagement Issues
00:30:08
Speaker
So there was a bunch of games before that that were low, but that was because that was that that's what capacity was for those games. Right. And then if you look out there, you know, I had a lot of people really worked up about that's not how many people were in the stands or was way less people like there probably were less people in the stands, but like no one's counting.
00:30:26
Speaker
people in the stands. That's just not how this works. Regardless, did it feel particularly empty to you in the stands? It felt like a 2011 CCL group stage game in the stands. It probably wasn't that bad. I don't think it was that bad, but that's telling. It felt a lot closer to that than even a weeknight rainy
00:30:50
Speaker
MLS midseason game and, you know, well, I mean, I mean, midseason games, we've, we've seen thin crowds relative to what our expectations are. But this, this did feel like a low point and I, and it was, I think in, to be fair, it was a sort of perfect storm, kind of crappy weather. Yeah. A midweek game, a Mariners game across the street. Yeah. You know, there, you can come up with,
00:31:19
Speaker
It was a perfect storm of bad factors, but I do think what it illustrates is that the floor of Sauner's attendance used to be 30,000 and change, 32,000. At one point, the floor was like 39,000. That was just like what you would expect every game, no matter what happened.
00:31:42
Speaker
And we are just not there anymore. I suppose the floor might be lower than it was yesterday. Oh, I think for it is for sure. And it's one of those things where it's like 29,000 people for an MLS game is still a big crowd relative to everybody else. But when you know how good the crowds can be, and they fill the stadium when there's a reason to get people out there.
00:32:10
Speaker
Just that we've talked about this, but the game day experience is just not what it used to be. Especially when people are going out there, they have one win in seven home games. They've scored multiple goals in that one win. It's not a fun time out at the park right now. No, it's not. It's really not.
00:32:34
Speaker
It's just the vibes are just bad in the stadium. People aren't, people aren't angry even, at least at this game that I experienced. Like there was frustration for sure, but it's just like people are just like, well, yeah, of course that happened, you know, and that's not a good place to be.
00:32:48
Speaker
No, I mean, and I, and I don't know what the I don't know. This is a more complicated question, I think, then maybe even the scoring problems, because it's it's not it's not like this all happened overnight.
Impact of COVID on Attendance
00:33:04
Speaker
You know, this has been a slow trickle. It's really.
00:33:07
Speaker
It's picked up pace since COVID. The centers have never really recovered from the COVID, you know, the centers attendance numbers at least have never really recovered, but the game B experience hasn't really recovered. You know, there just used to be more to the pregame, just to use an example. I don't walk the concourse that much. My impression that I hear from people is that they're just, you know, there's more closed stands than there used to be.
00:33:37
Speaker
You know, it's just not it's just not a premium experience the way that it once was.
Management and Fan Expectations Disconnect
00:33:43
Speaker
And what's frustrating is, you know, I have this interview with Adrian Hanauer, that's gonna come out next week, probably. And if you're in their Discord, I'll probably clip some, some highlights and share those early. But, you know, he,
00:34:00
Speaker
his heart is absolutely in the right place this is a guy who cares deeply about the team but I also don't I didn't get the sense that they are as
00:34:15
Speaker
I didn't get the sense that they're as focused on the current struggles as the average fan is. I think they are taking this bigger picture view of trying to extrapolate out to where they're trying to go, but they aren't necessarily as... I asked them about the season ticket package that got shipped in
00:34:37
Speaker
you know, nondistript bags and was a pretty bad experience. I asked him about, you know, the way the annual business meeting was handled last year, where if you remember, it was effectively held in private, you know, unless you knew unless you like, really were paying attention. And you kind of go down this laundry list of things that have frustrated fans, and he's sort of like, well, these are one off, you know, you they're each isolated and, and he didn't really
00:35:02
Speaker
And he didn't really agree with the idea that it's part of a trend. And I guess that's his right to disagree with me on. But I think you look at a crowd like yesterday, and it's hard not to see, you know, like, wonder what's, what's going on here, you know? Yeah. And sure, the results aren't helping.
00:35:27
Speaker
But it's not all results. There's a witch's brew of things that are conspiring to leave us where we are. And it's not all lost. The sounders aren't doomed to irrelevance. At some point, they can turn back the spigot, I suppose, and presumably inject some energy back into this. But it's about that time.
00:35:51
Speaker
You know, yeah, like if you're waiting to turn back on the spigot, it's good. Like maybe, maybe do that. Yeah. This, it feels like trying to reconnect to, you're never going to be able to recapture the energy of 2009, right? You just, you can't do it. Sure. It's you got to do something different.
00:36:08
Speaker
But that's what the 15th anniversary, though, I felt like had the potential to be. Absolutely. That's that's where it's going. And yeah, it's it feels like a total afterthought. You know, they had they had a rebrand. They had all this like cool merch, new secondary marks like, yeah, they did a great job with that. And I got really, really energized for the season in a way that I hadn't felt in a long time. And, you know, I've always been excited, but it was like it just really felt like, OK, this is like back to being
00:36:38
Speaker
The thing. And it's just, and I know that the conditions are more unfavorable. You know, the economy is not great, especially in this area.
00:36:50
Speaker
It's not like the economy was great in 2009 either. There was some stuff that recently happened that caused some problems. I don't think that's a great excuse. It's gotten more expensive. The team has been...
00:37:08
Speaker
Not bad for an extended period of time, but boring, boring. The it doesn't feel special. The game, the experience doesn't feel special anymore the way that it used to. And I think it's like you said, it's like they have to find a way to recapture some of that energy. And, you know, I don't foresee them abandoning some of their ticketing policies and that sort of stuff. And I really feel like that's kind of when things started going downhill, like that's when the.
00:37:40
Speaker
Yeah, but they have more fans than are turning up to games, you know, I mean, I, and I, I think we see evidence of that in a lot of places, you know, and maybe, you know, it's possible that I suppose that the sounders are sort of like just.
00:37:56
Speaker
becoming part of the sports landscape. They are, you know, like we see this with the Mariners, where when they are struggling, it's, you know, T-Mobile Park is pretty empty. Yeah. But then as soon as they go on a winning streak, it's like, Oh, it's the hottest ticket in town. Yeah. And, and I suppose that's possible that the, like the Sounders have never really tapped into that sort of
00:38:19
Speaker
I'm
00:38:41
Speaker
It's, you know, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how this goes because this season could have had the potential to be really special and it has not. I mean, it has not been special. It's been mostly a disappointment and you can point to any number of factors and some of them are in the front offices control and some of them aren't and some of them are in the players control and some of them aren't. But there are, you know, a lot of dropped
00:39:10
Speaker
a lot of missed opportunities across the board. Yeah. Big time.
00:39:16
Speaker
I think that if you're Adrian and you're running the ship, running the whole show, and you have the knowledge of the business well enough to see how these issues are maybe not directly connected and not indicative of an overall problem, that's great, but you have to be aware of how it feels to the fans. Yeah, right. And there are just a lot of disconnects that feel like that, where it just doesn't feel like
00:39:41
Speaker
ownership. And Adrian is sort of the, I guess, for lack of a better term, the avatar for ownership, generally. I mean, but I do think he's the one in charge. Yeah, right. And it just it feels like there is not enough urgency. And I'm not talking about, you know, specific roster moves that they haven't made or don't appear to be willing to make at this time. I just mean, generally, it doesn't feel like they have enough urgency to understand how bad things are.
00:40:09
Speaker
Yeah, and you know, one of the other criticisms I've heard and I'm increasingly sympathetic to is, you know, one of the things that Garth did while he was here was he was doing a weekly radio show and yeah.
00:40:22
Speaker
you know, I never really found that to be super informative. And, you know, I certainly didn't talk to him every week, but he did do semi regular press availabilities. And, and I don't know, I guess if you just look at the broad press availability, availability is Craig might be more might might be equally as available, but he's certainly not doing the weekly stuff. And so there is an impression that he's not that he's sort of ducking
00:40:51
Speaker
accountability for what, and I don't even know how much of this I put on him, but if he was out there being upfront about what they're trying to do, that I think would be helpful. My hope is that we start, we hear from him soon. We haven't heard from him since the Ariaga trade, which I guess wasn't that long ago, but a lot has seemingly changed since then. Yeah.
00:41:19
Speaker
And I don't know, I just think there could be more out front kind of availability, a little bit more visibility into what they're doing, what they're trying to do. It's gonna be, you know, we've got, you know, we're halfway through the season, basically, right now. And there's just a lot, there's a there's a lot to be left to desire. Yeah, I don't know.
00:41:56
Speaker
Oh, you're still, yeah, you're still, can you hear me? Oh, you're, it says you're, oh, you're ready to join, nevermind, okay.
00:42:08
Speaker
Okay, go ahead. Sorry about that. Yeah, I think that it's easy to forget that in 2016 and especially in 2018, it's not like there weren't an insignificant number of people calling for Garth's job, right? There was a lot of anger about the fact that we hadn't signed Stryker, about the way 2016 had gone, because 2016 was really the first time it had been fully Garth's team.
00:42:35
Speaker
And people said, oh, and this is the worst team we've ever had. This guy's totally ruined everything. And then 2018, it was like a lot of the same criticisms we're hearing now. And Garth was a lot more willing to get out in front of it and talk to the public. And people weren't always happy with his answers and the things that he said, but he was talking.
00:42:58
Speaker
I think Garth likes to talk. I think he's a guy who likes that part of the job, and maybe Craig's not as much that way, I don't know. And Garth also had a bigger role. He wasn't just the general manager, but that's the level on which people viewed him. Craig is not, from an org chart perspective, Garth's replacement, but from a public perception perspective, he absolutely is.
00:43:28
Speaker
It would be nice to hear what he has to say about some of this stuff. You're right. Yeah. And I hope my hope is that we will get some of that soon. You know, and we're, you know, like, I don't know, it feels funny to be talking about this as a, you know, coming off of a tie. But.
00:43:47
Speaker
I do think the home struggles are really at the core of everything that's that's causing this frustration.
Consistent Home Struggles
00:43:56
Speaker
And, you know, we're three we've now had three straight seasons of pre mediocre home results. And, you know, lumen field supposed to be this, you know, it had been it's never been a huge home field advantage, but it definitely was a significant, you know, it was it was
00:44:17
Speaker
They were always a good home team. Yeah, they've always been a good home team and they just something is not right right now and Yeah on the road the Sounders have been you know, not great, but they're getting results. So yeah their road record games Yeah, three five and one is you know You'd like a few of those five to switch over to the one column, but it's not terrible, you know if they could just be average at home they would be
Missed Opportunities Affect League Standing
00:44:45
Speaker
in pretty good shape, I think, but it's just Yeah, I mean, if they just like, if they had those six points that they dropped in the ties on late goals, they'd be fifth in the table right now. Yeah, they'd be in perfectly fine shape. Yep. Yep. It's, it's beyond frustrating. It's, it's beyond frustrating. And the injuries are a problem. Obviously, it's made things a lot harder than they needed to be. But
00:45:12
Speaker
it can't be an excuse because they're in these games and they're pissing them away. Yeah, yep.
Preview of Upcoming Podcast Content
00:45:20
Speaker
Well, that's probably a good place to end the show today. I think we're going to come back. We have a bye this weekend. We're going to come back and do a mailbag episode next week. I think that's the plan. We will have the Adrian Hanauer interview early next week as well.
00:45:40
Speaker
So that's something you can look forward to. But all that said, I am Jeremiah O'Shan signing off for, I guess our sponsor as well, Full Pull Wines, signing off for Aaron Campo and Lick It. This is Nosadietes. Remember, you'll never get alone.
00:46:54
Speaker
We love you. Let's win another one!