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Strategizing Your Marketing Career with Steve Ward
553 Plays1 year ago
For marketers, the current job market is uncertain but there are still many opportunities to be found. On this week's show we talked with Steve Ward of The Ward Group about how to build your marketing career strategically whether you're new to the industry or a seasoned exec.
Steve's real world agency experience and years helping match marketing pros to the right opportunities has given him excellent insight into the search and hiring process. He shared a ton of actionable advice with us and we're so excited to share his wisdom.
Learn more about Steve and The Ward Group at https://www.wardgroup.com/
Reach out to Steve directly at [email protected]
Subscribe to the Content People newsletter at https://meredithfarley.substack.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Content People' Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
Hey, everyone, and welcome to Content People. Tune in to hear from creatives, leaders, and experts in various media. I'm your host, Meredith Farley. And I'm the show's producer, Ian Sermon. Hey, Meredith. Hey, Ian.
Interview with Steve Ward
00:00:20
Speaker
On today's episode, we talked to Steve Ward. Steve's a VP at the Ward Group, which is an executive search and consulting firm in Boston. The Ward Group helps clients attract and retain talented execs across a wide range of industries. And they're somewhat unique in that their executive search consultants all have experience as functional practitioners, meaning everyone at the Ward Group has held positions in marketing, communication, strategy, or product management.
00:00:46
Speaker
It's somewhat of a family business. It was founded by Steve's father, Jim Ward, about 30 years ago. But before Steve decided to join up, he had a pretty successful and interesting career in marketing himself.
Steve's Background and Transition to Recruiting
00:00:57
Speaker
I've known Steve for a few years now. He actually introduced me to Cliff Stevens, who we interviewed back around episode three. I asked Steve to do the show because one, he's a really nice, wonderful guy who I really enjoy chatting with. And two, his insights into both the marketing world and the job market make him a uniquely informed guest for anyone listening who's considering a job search, or perhaps was recently impacted by all the layoffs we've been hearing and reading about. We tried to make this a really actionable advice-packed episode.
00:01:26
Speaker
Absolutely. There has been just so much volatility in the job market over the last few years, especially. And it really feels like we're living in a time where there is a lot of opportunity, but there's also so much uncertainty. And that can be so difficult to navigate for people that are just starting out in their marketing career. But it's also challenging for people that have been around a little bit longer. So it was really great to get Steve's advice for how to approach searching in the current climate. We hope you enjoy our chat with Steve.
00:02:00
Speaker
Steve, hello, welcome to Content People. Thank you so much for agreeing to have this conversation with me.
00:02:06
Speaker
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. This is exciting. Yeah. I'm really glad to have you on because I think you are a very, very timely guest. What I want to get into in this conversation is, first, who you are and what you do. Two, the state of the job market. Three, advice you might have for folks who are searching for positions right now, and then any wisdom you have to share with hiring managers or employers who are trying to figure out how to bring on the right talent.
00:02:33
Speaker
So just to start off, for folks who aren't familiar with you or the ward group, what do you do?
Ward Group's Unique Approach
00:02:39
Speaker
Absolutely. And I appreciate you having me on Meredith, excited to chat about this. I'll be able to give some good insights, some probably misguided, but excited to hop in. So I am Steve Ward. I am a vice president at the ward group, which is
00:02:56
Speaker
a retained executive search and organizational consulting firm. We specialize functionally in marketing and communication leadership roles, which allows us to be more industry agnostic. We do do work in the agency space as well as on the client side. We work nationally in our scope.
00:03:16
Speaker
And being a retained firm allows us to really be an exclusive partner with all organizations we work with and truly get to know them and become an extension of their team beyond, I would say, a typical search firm. So that's a little bit about the war group.
Steve's Career Path
00:03:38
Speaker
I think a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are creatives. They work at an agency or they work in-house or they manage a creative team. In particular, that aspect of what you all focus on and what you do, I think is going to be really pertinent and relevant to them. I'll say, you have a really interesting background. You actually have a fair bit of experience in the marketing, advertising, and digital media space. How did you get into that? Then when did you move over to recruiting?
00:04:06
Speaker
Certainly, and a really interesting start to my career, starting in the agency world. And needless to say, moving into the ward group, it was not by accident. My father founded the firm in 93, so we're celebrating our 30 years in business this year.
00:04:21
Speaker
Well, prior to joining the firm, I was an account lead at a couple of agencies in the Boston area. I started my career at Boathouse Group, which is an independent firm in the area, which happens to be a place that has a lot of emphasis on the similarities we are in from health care, financial services, higher education, et cetera. And I really wanted to start off by understanding
00:04:52
Speaker
the industry, the function, and how it all works together.
Recruitment Strategies and Experience
00:04:58
Speaker
So it was a fun place to cut my teeth, a little bit more creative, and then I went and led an integrated marketing arm of a PR and integrated marketing firm in the Boston area before joining the ward group and recruiting individuals into those functions. So it was a great way to start my career, grow my
00:05:19
Speaker
knowledge of the function, gain credibility, and then transition into the recruitment side and being able to match up great creative and marketing and communication leaders with strong organizations.
00:05:34
Speaker
So you went into the digital marketing side of things, cut your teeth there, got experience in that space, and then went back to the word group. And you're kind of drawing on your knowledge of how all of that works when you're looking for candidates or providing guidance for employers about the structures they should put in place, for example. Is that right?
00:05:53
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And the interesting part is that's a way we've had a lot of our recruiters come on board. A lot of our executive recruiters have come from marketing and communications and have been there functionally within a variety of organizations before they've come into the recruiting side of things. We feel like that
Job Market Volatility and AI Impact
00:06:15
Speaker
model is a great way to gain credibility in the marketplace.
00:06:18
Speaker
and really be able to understand not just what we're recruiting for, but who we're appearing with. Yeah, that makes total sense. Actually, I think on last, well, it aired last week, but it'll be several episodes back when this goes up. But in the conversation I had with my former colleague, Dave Snyder, we were talking about, we both started at Rafton as writers. And we talked a little bit about how having done the role gave us
00:06:46
Speaker
uh helpful amount of like empathy and understanding of how things worked in a way that then made us more effective leaders and I can totally see that in your in the case of the ward group having done that stuff makes you a more effective recruiter and consultant when trying to place those positions yes absolutely and especially
00:07:06
Speaker
With the level of leadership we work with, the senior marketing and communication leaders and as well as CEOs, et cetera, it is helpful to have that knowledge and gain that credibility quickly so that they have that trust of us being able to find the right marketing and communication leaders for their teams. That makes sense, and I think
00:07:29
Speaker
In my conversations like just that I've had with you over knowing you over the past few years, I can really see that as a helpful differentiator. I've worked with a lot of other recruiters in previous roles trying to find roles and get roles filled and sometimes just trying to
00:07:46
Speaker
It took, it was harder and more complex than I expected to try and convey like the nuances and needs of a role. And it felt like getting up a few weeks of what was already a time sensitive search. So I can really see that as a value prop for you guys. Yes.
00:08:01
Speaker
Absolutely. And to your point, that's a little bit too of how we approach the market with clients really getting an understanding of who they are, what they are looking to accomplish, and being able to influence that through our experiences, both personally, professionally, and through many years of recruiting in this function.
Effective Job Searching Strategies
00:08:23
Speaker
Totally. And I'd imagine the network too. So I kind of want to name drop on your behalf a little bit and tell me if you want, if you need us to like cut any of this out, but you were also in addition to Boat House, which has a great reputation, you were full holiday for a bit. Is that right? I interned at Hill. So a little bit of the, you know, very green experience there, but a lot of fun to work with in that organization. And I work across some pretty impressive brands.
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah. And then was it a Hill holiday that you met Cliff Stevens? Is that right? Yes. Okay. So Cliff and I go a ways back. I, in a, you know, in a small world, we, Cliff was one of my quote unquote clients when I was in the, at the Hill holiday internship program. And then I, when I got out of Hill, went to Butler house, we stayed in touch and most significantly re-engaged when I joined the ward group five years ago.
00:09:19
Speaker
Interesting. So Cliff was on this podcast a while ago. You were the one who introduced me to him and you're like, you guys just might get along and you do kind of the same thing. So I'm appreciative of that. And I just think of you as so well connected, probably in part because of your word group network, but also all the folks you met earlier in your career. My friend Julie and I were talking and she's like, oh yeah, I know Cliff and I know Steve.
00:09:46
Speaker
So I can imagine that that serves you all too. Yes, for sure. The agency connections that I made prior to the War Group have definitely been very beneficial for me and my network. And then the War Group overall, the nice part is I get to coast off the name a little bit across the group. Everyone here does a great job of building relationships and keeping them. We certainly put a premium on that of making sure we're not just speaking to someone about a role and then
00:10:15
Speaker
disappearing. It's really about getting to understand each individual, what their strengths are, where they like take their career. And then whether it's a role we're working on now or a role we're working on in, you know, two or three years from now, being able to reconnect with them and just build that relationship and that level of trust is so important.
00:10:35
Speaker
Well, I'm always grateful to have you in my network, Steve. So thank you and thank you again. I'm grateful to be in yours, Mary. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. All right. So I want to pivot a little bit and talk about something that I think is timely, which is the state of the job market.
00:10:52
Speaker
Anyone who is reading the news or checking LinkedIn knows that there have been huge rounds of layoffs at some of the most recognized tech companies in the country. Some of the folks listening to this could have even fallen victim to a layoff. And it seems like the state of things is fairly brutal. But it's also confusing because jobs reports
00:11:12
Speaker
are pretty good. It seems like unemployment is at like a 50 year low. I think it was reported last week. So it's confusing and people don't really know what to make of it. What's going on, Steve? Can you
00:11:28
Speaker
Well, I would say, candidly, I might not be the best barometer for this or the ward group overall, because we do a deal with senior leaders. And it's always when we get brought on for a search, it's to solve a very specific problem for an organization, always some sort of leadership problem. That being said, tech booms and busts are well-documented throughout the years. And not surprising, you see this happen after
00:11:58
Speaker
A few years of everyone being remote, relying more heavily on tech, the investments were there.
AI's Role in Job Functions
00:12:07
Speaker
a little bit of an over-hire situation that occurred across the industry. Even we even saw this too in the agency world, right? A lot of organizations being desperate, trying to ramp up based on client needs and overpaying for younger talent or over hiring because there was a short-term need. And then as soon as there's a little bit of a downturn in the economy,
00:12:30
Speaker
it becomes last in, first out and a little bit of that transition.
00:12:38
Speaker
That tends to occur, unfortunately. From our perspective, there's certain industries that are a little more recession-proof, comparatively. Those are a lot of the industries that we happen to be in. Healthcare, higher ed, nonprofit, financial services, et cetera. Financial services obviously had a turbulent run
00:13:01
Speaker
a decade ago. But they have rebounded to an extent of how they hire their marketing leadership and communications leadership. And that has certainly caused a little less of a turbulent run there.
00:13:18
Speaker
So you think that in tech, in sell ways, the layoffs are a correction for overhiring that was the result of maybe a lack of talent and a sudden but short term
00:13:32
Speaker
uptick in service demand and we're kind of like leveling out for a bit potentially. Exactly. The market is right setting a little bit right now, which has created an interesting dynamic because I would say in 2021, in the first half of 2022, it was such a candidate market where there were
00:13:56
Speaker
endless amounts of opportunity, everyone looking for everything at the same time. So, you know, if you could fog a mirror, you'd be kind of, you had three opportunities in front of you, right? Obviously, if you fog a mirror, that is a really good expression. I'm very sorry. Keep going. No, no, that's great. So, there is, but now it's gotten to the stage of, okay, the
00:14:22
Speaker
The economy slowed down a bit, although it's not as significant as people anticipated, which is good. And I would say organizations really being pointed in how they hire and who they hire and for what reason. So it's certainly slowed, but it's not at a dire situation.
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's I appreciate you saying that because I think there can also be a bit of an effect where LinkedIn can be kind of an echo chamber for the industry that you're in.
Adaptation to AI Changes
00:14:59
Speaker
So if you're in, you know, probably my LinkedIn is mostly content marketing, tech,
00:15:03
Speaker
any creative work of that elk. And the folks you're connected with are the folks in your industry and you can start to think what is specific to your industry is specific across the board. And that's not always the case. I have a couple more questions for you on this, but I feel like I want to take this, like on this same track,
00:15:28
Speaker
I'm curious for your thoughts on this, but I've been thinking about this a fair bit and writing about it a little bit too, is I think that the content marketing industry and SEO in general are kind of pretty ripe for disruption over the next year or so.
00:15:46
Speaker
AI, chat GPT, Dolly. A lot of folks are really clamoring to say, hey, they can't replace us. But guys, they can replace you. They can replace a little bit of the work you do, and therefore, they can replace a little bit of the people. And they're just going to get better and better and better. So I think AI is a problem. I also think a problem, insofar as job security, I suppose.
00:16:11
Speaker
I also think that AI and the way AI search works is significantly less reliant on content. So I think SEO is pretty ripe for disruption generally. And then additionally, I think that there's a lot of coverage around how expensive AI searches are to run. It's something like 100k a day to keep chat GPT up and running. We've already introduced a
00:16:40
Speaker
I think it's like $20 a month to always have access during busy windows and get faster results. And Google's model is not set up for that. Google set up for fast and cheap searches that are cheap for Google and then they serve ads and make revenue off of those searches. So I think there's like three significant factors that are impacting
00:17:04
Speaker
content marketing and search experts over the next, I don't know.
00:17:12
Speaker
one to three years probably. And then I also think there's the potential that the move to remote work was kind of like the globalization of the workforce. And there are places where it's significantly cheaper to hire creative workers and staff, the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Brazil, South Africa,
00:17:41
Speaker
Those are all places where there's talent pool there for like 30 to 70 percent of the wages, essentially, that U.S. based workers with similar skill sets might have. So there's a lot happening in that particular space. Do you have any thoughts or predictions on it? Yes and no, I would say. All right.
00:18:09
Speaker
The interesting part with AI, with chat TBT especially, and all these kind of evolutions of where things are going is technology has always evolved and made things better, easier, faster, cheaper. And it's a matter of finding ways for
00:18:29
Speaker
you and the workforce to utilize them in a different way and adapt your skills, right? So instead of thinking about, okay, SEO and SEO specialists is going away, think about what are the elements that AI can help your organization and then what are areas that
00:18:50
Speaker
a human can actually help utilize those systems, those new tools and technology to improve
Personal Branding and Job Search as Marketing
00:18:59
Speaker
it. So it's about balancing out how to utilize technology, how to approach technology in less of how to replace people, but how to complement the technology with people. Yeah, I hear you on that. But I do think that by complementing and supplementing, you are going to cut some of the jobs.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yes. Unfortunately, I think that is a little bit inevitable in some of these pieces, and especially as you look at, to your point, if you look at offshore employees or different ways to be creative around solving this, solving your
00:19:38
Speaker
your bottom line and your margin a bit, there is technology and just different resources now that have opened up the globe a little bit for it. So it's a tricky balance. There's definitely elements where some roles will go away, but there are other opportunities for individuals to shift their mindset and think about ways they can market themselves to an extent.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's totally right. All right, so along those lines, you're someone who's recently been laid off, or your job searching in the creative marketing space. What can you expect out there right now?
00:20:24
Speaker
And so I would say obviously less opportunity than there was back in 21 and 20, early part of 22, but there's still opportunity out there. And so I think when you are going out into the market, you need to really approach it as
00:20:41
Speaker
if you were wanting a product into a market and the products yourself. So really being able to develop or go to market strategy for how you'd like to position yourself, where you'd like to go a little bit too on what the target audiences are that you want to go after, and then how you want to position yourself to those target audiences.
00:21:05
Speaker
So you really, there's a lot of time and effort that goes into a job search and goes into that approach when you are let go from a job or part of rental layoffs, et cetera. I think a few kind of top of mind things that you should be thinking about is you need to exhaust your network.
00:21:25
Speaker
because that is such an important part about maintaining relationships. You need to be able to know who your friends are and network with them, make the connections as much as possible, and expand out like a spider web to an extent on those pieces.
00:21:46
Speaker
Depending on your level, there are roles that are open on LinkedIn and just posted that way. But the more senior you get, the less likely they are just to be pure posted. A lot of the roles that we work on, especially being a retained search firm where the exclusive partner with an organization, we don't market
00:22:08
Speaker
anything in terms of posting on job boards, things like that. It's more about getting to know someone and making sure they're the right fit and then presenting the opportunity to an extent. So that's just a little anecdote for not all roles are just out in the open. So the more you can grow your network, expand it, get to know people and shape out who you are, the more opportunity you will get.
00:22:34
Speaker
I think that's great advice. I think when you say networking, some folks really hate networking. It's tough. I wonder if you could, I don't know, what do you think the best way to go
Building a Personal Pitch
00:22:52
Speaker
about it is? If you're someone who's like, I don't like networking, I don't really like talking to people, it makes them feel maybe a little cringy to be like, hey, I'm looking for this, or can you help me? Any advice for them?
00:23:03
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. So I would say on the networking side, it's most uncomfortable when you are prepared, right? And when you don't have a plan going into something and when it's a pure cold outreach. So you're still going to have to do some cold outreach in some way, shape or form, but you're a little more confident when you do build out a plan.
00:23:24
Speaker
That goes back to my comment about developing go-to-market strategy and being able to think about the way you position yourself and what you're truly interested in, what you're passionate about. So certainly requires, before you go out and start developing relationships and networking, it does require a little self-reflection of what you've enjoyed, where you're passionate about, where your strengths are, and where you'd like to take your career and go from there.
00:23:54
Speaker
So that's let's say that's an element of it. And then as far as kind of a traditional networking, there are different ways to go about it. The easiest way and the way to start is always building relationships and going out to the people that you know best and having those conversations first because the easiest you get more comfortable with the way you talk about yourself.
00:24:17
Speaker
The way you talk about your career and also what you want to do. So having some of those softball conversations first are very beneficial. And then you expand out from there asking.
00:24:30
Speaker
you know, X if they know why or they, or if they know someone at a certain organization and then start to build those kind of connected tissues with the, with your network. So expanding out that way and what comes with that, I apologize, I know it was a little bit of a ramble, but what comes with that is making sure you have, you have a plan on those pieces too. So
00:24:56
Speaker
laying out who you're going to reach out to, when you're going to reach out to them, what the reason is, whether it's to get to know about their organization, to get to know about a specific role, to get to know about a function that they're working within and how yours can work together. But really, it all comes back to planning, and that gains confidence that way.
00:25:22
Speaker
And one other piece too with this is there's a premium on follow-up. The most frustrating thing is when someone has a networking conversation with you, great conversation, and then there's nothing after. Because the reality is when you were searching for a job, the individual who you're speaking to about just career advice, et cetera, they're putting time into it as well. And so you want to make them feel like they
00:25:52
Speaker
you understand and appreciate the amount of time that they're putting into it. Yeah. I think that's, that's really good advice and
Networking for Career Growth
00:26:01
Speaker
wise. I think that
00:26:06
Speaker
Along the lines of what you are saying, I would say that both when I've been asked for help and when I've wanted to ask someone for help, one, if someone comes to me for something, I feel, and I think most people are like, yeah, what can I do to help you? Ask me symbiotic relationship. You don't want them to feel like it's just a you, you, you conversation and how can
00:26:29
Speaker
I help you kind of thing, right? It needs to be, obviously they understand what the conversation's about. It's a way that you're trying to figure out what's your next career move and trying to understand more aspects of their career, et cetera. But you also need to show the interest in what they're doing because if
00:26:52
Speaker
You know, the job searcher is just all about what can you do for me? That again, leaves a sour taste in someone's mouth and probably makes the individual who's helping out less likely to pick up the next phone call from you.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah. I agree with all of that. So to try and lay your points are, use your network. Do your homework to be concise and targeted in the time and help you're asking for from folks. Be polite, follow up, and think about how anything you could do could also be of use and helpful to them.
00:27:32
Speaker
Yes. And so with that comes to the developing out a plan, developing out positioning for yourself, which may change based on who you're talking to too. You want to make sure that it is, you know, you're positioning yourself in a way that's useful for all involved. And
00:27:51
Speaker
So I would say those are the kind of core areas to focus in on. The one other piece which this goes, this is a little bit of pre-planning on this, is staying in touch with people. Because what you don't want to do is
00:28:09
Speaker
just purely reach out to people when you're in need. A, you talk about feeling uncomfortable and awkward. It's just constantly going to someone when you have a need and that's it. And B, you're going at it and away. I lost my train of thought there, sorry.
00:28:32
Speaker
No, that's the thing. I think it's really good advice, though. So to start from the top, you're kind of like, basically, you're like, maintain your Rolodex. Yes. Yes. You didn't start again. But I think your point is like, don't just reach out when you need something. Be friendly. Be of help. Stay in touch.
00:28:56
Speaker
Yes, exactly. So it is about staying in touch with your network beyond the times that you just need them and helping them out when you can and just staying up to date as to what they're doing. Because what you don't want to do is constantly have the only time you speak to them is when you need something or you're at a career inflection point. Because that, again, goes back to eliminating a symbiotic relationship.
00:29:23
Speaker
Totally. And I want to come back again to this like positioning yourself as a product thing.
Refining Resumes and Industry Transition
00:29:30
Speaker
While we're on this bit, I want to say something else that I found weirdly useful to myself, and I don't know if this will resonate with everyone, but
00:29:38
Speaker
We all have so many touch points with different people throughout the day. You get calls from telemarketers, but sometimes you get calls from vendors where it's actually relevant to you. You get emails, you get LinkedIn notes generally of people trying to sell you something. All of those examples I've touched on are instances where I have actually met folks that I'm still in touch with, value my relationship with, and consider that part of my network.
00:30:06
Speaker
And it might seem weird, but I do feel like sometimes you can just feel a bit of a connection and you think, weird, you called me to sell me your blank services, but I think we could be friends. Let's see how we help each other. No, I'm not going to buy that, but let's stay in touch. I've had that exact example. When I was at Brafton, I sold Brafton to someone calling to sell me a social platform.
00:30:35
Speaker
made friends with people who are giving me demos for products that were in a fit. So I would also say that keep your eyes and ears open as you go throughout your professional day or week because folks that you might not immediately think, oh, this person is someone important I should have in my network, could be a helpful connection down the line or just someone you'd like enjoy and learn from.
00:31:06
Speaker
The elements too of just wanting to connect with like-minded people. Sometimes it's for the gain of your professional or personal career, great. But the other elements are just staying in touch and just being able to talk shop with people, right? And be able to use that for the future for yourself in a different way, but in a much more casual way. It is important to not think about
00:31:26
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a great point Meredith, because there is, you know,
00:31:33
Speaker
a title first, and then the person, it's really thinking about the person, the relationship you can have with them, and then how best do you utilize it.
00:31:43
Speaker
Totally. Well, I want to come back to what you've touched on a couple of times, what I want to dig in, the idea of positioning yourself as a product. So what does that mean to you? And how do you recommend people do that tangibly? Or should they be writing up documents where they're like, this is the product, these are my potential customers? It sounds so interesting. Could you talk on it a little more? Yes, absolutely. And that is kind of it, right?
00:32:10
Speaker
When you're starting into a job search, whether you've been laid off or are just ready for what's next, it's obviously, it's a little bit easier to do when you don't have a role that you're currently working on. You're not in a full-time job just because the amount of time it takes for a job search is borderline another full-time job. But what do you want to do? Is it really approaching in a thoughtful way? And that's around, you do want to,
00:32:40
Speaker
do a few different things. One is, I use a Google Sheet or an Excel doc or whatever you like to do for an organization standpoint, but develop out a list of targets. Whether it's the targets are people, are organizations, and they might even be types of roles that you've seen in the market that are of interest to you.
00:33:03
Speaker
So you want to create a plan for yourself of how you're going to approach it. That comes down to who you want to network with, what types of industries or organizations you want to go after, and all those pieces. You then also want to take a step back and think about who you are, what your elevator pitch is. If someone says,
00:33:27
Speaker
Who is Meredith and what have you done? Just to be able to give that 90 second snippet of your career, what you're passionate about, where you like to go, and make sure that that's refined, smooth, and buttoned up. Because what you don't want to do is ramble on and then have someone walk away from that conversation thinking,
00:33:46
Speaker
I don't know if she understands who she is, what she's doing, and I would not feel confident bringing her in to this organization based on that. So really being able to refine yourself from a positioning standpoint, right? So it is, if you think about a product, right?
00:34:04
Speaker
take a look at what you have, take a look at who your target audience is, you take a look at how to position yourself to each of those audiences, and then you refine it too. As you're in the market, as you're going, if you find there's an angle that's working better versus another, you hone in on that.
00:34:25
Speaker
And that comes from elevating certain skill sets you have, certain organizations you've worked with, certain projects or initiatives that you've led or challenges that you've solved. But just being able to create an overarching messaging of who you are, having proof points along the way, and then being confident about it in the market is really important.
00:34:55
Speaker
that is so interesting and helpful. Thank you for breaking that down. As you're talking about it, I was thinking that... I'm thinking of someone in particular I talked to a few years ago, actually, who was a recent grad who'd reached out to me, just wanted to talk about work a little, and kind of get... And when
00:35:17
Speaker
We were talking about positioning herself. She said something to me that I actually think lots of people feel, where she's like, she basically felt fake trying to come up with an elevator pitch for herself or narrow herself down. And I'm curious for your thoughts on that. On one hand, I'm like, I understand that. We are all constantly evolving, calibrating, fluctuating beings. We are not a job spec. Yep.
00:35:47
Speaker
At the same time, I think it's about kind of using your judgment in so far as or applying judgment. Like it's not dishonest to find a succinct way to position yourself for a role that you know you'd be a fit for. But I know people struggle with that a little bit. I think
00:36:08
Speaker
that can be helpful to have someone to bounce ideas off of when you're working through this. Trying to write or position yourself in an echo chamber is hard. Do you have any advice when someone comes to you and you're like, man, they could be a great candidate, but they need to polish this up a little bit. What do you tell them?
00:36:28
Speaker
Absolutely. It's funny. I was actually just speaking to someone the other day about this because they had been in financial services for quite a while and they want to get out of that industry and move into higher ed and non property areas that they want to focus in on. But all their work history is all
00:36:47
Speaker
It's tremendous, but it's all within financial services. And they were discussing it as, well, I did this in financial services, that in financial services, et cetera, et cetera. I said, you need to take a step back and think about functionally what you've done, right? Because who you're selling it to,
00:37:06
Speaker
Is going to be different, but how you're selling what you're selling and how you're approaching your function. Is going to be the same, so you need to take a step back and think about the angle that you're going to be going in with right and that will help you refine it and getting outside of just an industry that you've worked within.
00:37:24
Speaker
is a good way to do it in thinking about what are my accomplishments, where are my skill sets. It's both soft and hard skills too, right? Because it's an important part of, okay, have you influenced it?
00:37:38
Speaker
Take an example from the agency world, right? There are elements of, you don't have the final decision from a client, right? The client makes the final decision. So how do you influence them? And then that skillset can be so important for any organization you're working at, agency or client side, but being able to influence without responsibility is a heck of a skill to have. It's a soft skill though, and it's one that maybe
00:38:04
Speaker
doesn't percolate on a resume, but it does come through in any conversation. So a long-winded way of saying you need to really refine, think about who you are and whether you apply it to an industry, great. Or if you apply it to a function, that's another approach to take. But thinking about the hard and soft skills that have made up who you are and how you'll help an organization are very important.
00:38:34
Speaker
And to your comment too about the interesting part is with younger individuals starting off in their career, it's not a whole lot you can say, right? Because you partnered on something or you've contributed to or supported or et cetera, or you've had two internships and you worked at a restaurant before that, right? And your single page resume, not a whole lot of detail on it. But all of that is thinking about,
00:39:03
Speaker
the benefits of you to an organization and how you can sell yourself in. So, you know, and that comes in, especially if you're a younger person who hasn't had a ton of credibility yet in the industry, being able to talk about your, you know, timeliness, a structure, a constant learner, being able to get things done, just all those softer skills that can be beneficial to an organization are important to bring through.
00:39:33
Speaker
That's interesting. So say someone was in financial services for a long time, they wanted to pivot. I'm almost envisioning they could do an exercise where they take their resume or they bullet point all the stuff that they're really good at at their current job and then almost just refine the language to make it a little broader and less specific to financial
Highlighting Soft Skills
00:39:56
Speaker
services. Or is there other stuff you'd recommend that they do as part of that thinking?
00:40:01
Speaker
Yes, that's a great point. And it's interesting because when you have a position that you're specifically going after, it's very easy to do that. Because you think you look at the responsibilities of a position, and then you map out your experience against that, right? And then you can fuse that back into your resume by a little industry agnostic to be more functionally focused.
00:40:25
Speaker
So that's definitely an approach to take from that side. And then you can still go about it the same way if you don't have a specific position you're going after, but you're more so trying to network into a new industry. Take a step back and make a second version of your resume and think about it functionally. What have I done by breaking it down into
00:40:51
Speaker
core elements of your role from, say, marketing or communications, what you've actually accomplished, where you've affected revenue, management skills and experience, and growth overall. So thinking about it in ways where it's
00:41:11
Speaker
industry agnostic, but has really had tangible outcomes on a team, on an organization, on revenue, et cetera. That's super helpful. And as you're talking about it,
00:41:29
Speaker
I feel that for me, whenever I'm doing stuff for myself, it is 20 times harder than doing it for a friend or someone else. I feel like having a partner, friend, colleague give you some time and talk it out with you and lend some objective perspective was so helpful. But I also think this can be a really sneaky way to
00:41:56
Speaker
network. Sneaky is not the right word, but if there's someone that maybe you're like, I wish this person would mentor me, or I wish this person I'd love to connect with this person, but I don't really know what I'd want to ask of them or talk to them.
00:42:12
Speaker
I think asking for help with this in particular can be powerful, especially to your point if you've done the work. So you've got your Google Docs, you've got your versions of resumes, and you're like, hey, you're in this industry. I want to pivot from blank to your industry. I've done this work. I would be so grateful for 30 minutes of your time for you to maybe give me your perspective on how I could be positioning myself for that.
00:42:37
Speaker
folks will generally say yes. And if you then have a connection with that person, they might have you in mind. They might be like, yeah, here, also I'm aware of this role or I know this person you should talk to. So I feel like this exact exercise you're talking about can also be a really good inroads to form a bit of a relationship with someone that you might wish for a connection with, but don't quite know how to how to approach. Yes, that's a grid.
00:43:05
Speaker
very on-point narrative and poignant because it allows it as a subtle way to create a mentor-mentee relationship. It's a great idea. And one other comment, too, going back to your earlier comment around pinging it off of other individuals beyond the mentoring side of it.
00:43:24
Speaker
especially over the last few years, where everyone has been at home in different ways, driving each other, driving their significant others insane, roommates insane, whatnot. But
Handling Layoffs in Interviews
00:43:35
Speaker
everyone has also listened in a lot more on conversations, not work conversations on what the hell you do and how you do it. So being able to use a roommate
00:43:47
Speaker
or a friend or a significant other or a family member as a sounding board for here's how I'm positioning myself, here's what I feel like I've done is incredibly beneficial because they listen a lot more than you think. They can say, you do a lot more than that. You do XYZ and just be able to give a good perspective to you. For the most part, unless it's a random roommate, pretty unfiltered.
00:44:16
Speaker
Oh, I think that's so smart. Yeah, you're totally right. It is so funny. We have so much more insight into our partner roommates' work. For better or worse? Yeah, totally. In the beginning, I literally had to tell myself to back off. He doesn't need my advice because I was getting pretty into the detail. Yeah. My fiancé, she's like,
00:44:38
Speaker
She would drive her insane going through the war group pitch on a consistent basis. And she would just she could parrot it back to me consistently. That's great. Like I can pitch for you. Yes. Yeah.
00:44:51
Speaker
Well, that's really funny. All right. Well, I know we don't have too much time left. So I feel like I could talk to you for hours, Steve. I'm going to try and do things that I think are maybe most relevant to listeners. So one thing I think is salient if you've been laid off is that a lot of people don't know how to talk about a layoff in interviews. They think it might reflect
00:45:13
Speaker
poorly on them where they feel some shame around it. What advice do you have for them when they get the question that's like, so why did you leave your last company? Yes, I.
00:45:23
Speaker
And it's interesting because I see it all the time. People struggle to get through it. And I would say the vaguer you are, the more questions it creates. So being a matter of fact about what happened and keeping it brief are two very important pieces. Because the more you start to ramble, you start to... Yeah.
00:45:47
Speaker
mumble through the situation, it creates more questions than answers. So keeping it brief, unfortunate downsizing of the organization, I was part of that downsizing. I still enjoyed learning XYZ while I was there, and then shifting the conversation towards the future. But I'm really excited to bring these skill sets to here.
00:46:15
Speaker
So being able to keep it brief, be succinct, be very matter of fact about it, and then pivoting quickly into what you're excited about the opportunity and where your skills can help.
00:46:33
Speaker
Yes, that is, I think that's great advice. And I would say as someone who over the years hired and interviewed probably hundreds and maybe thousands, didn't hire thousands, but plenty of thousands of folks, never once did I hear someone say they were laid off and think anything bad about them. Like it's a really internalized shame, it feels like. And then also on the other side of it, for whatever reason, I've been laid off and
00:47:00
Speaker
I for some reason have zero shame about it. So I think it's a, but it's something that it seems to people get caught on that one in particular. Yes. No, absolutely. It is. People do get caught on and people think about like, okay, is this going to reflect as if
00:47:18
Speaker
I did something wrong in my role and the reality is no, it's a business. Organizations understand that and as do recruiters, the more you are succinct and matter of fact about the situation, the easier it is.
00:47:33
Speaker
Okay, so don't ramble, be succinct, and don't just be clear about it. Don't feel embarrassed. Be clear about it. Pivot towards future and what you learn at the organization that you can bring to the next one.
00:47:51
Speaker
And then the other piece, too, is don't bash the old organization. That is, if people go that road, I've seen it a million times where someone will start saying, yeah, unfortunately, a round of layoffs, you could kind of see it coming because of XYZ, et cetera, et cetera. The more you talk negatively about your previous employer, the more of a bad taste in the mouth the interviewer gets. Right. I think those are all great bits of advice.
00:48:20
Speaker
So, all right, say these interviews go well, you've been an offer, but maybe you're not actually that into that role. You've been laid off and you receive an offer. Is it, you know, there's the maxim that it's easier to get a job when you have a job? Do you think someone should kind of take it and keep looking or do you think they should risk it and look for something else? What would be your advice to someone in that situation?
00:48:47
Speaker
I would say emphatically, no, don't take it. Correct. Do not take it. You want to make sure that the next move you make is the right career move and not just taking a role to take a role for a few reasons. One, it creates, it can create essentially three moves in one in your career. So what I mean by that is you get laid off from company A,
00:49:17
Speaker
You accept a role with company B, and then six months in you find a role from company G that you actually like and you take it. You now have a short stint at company A, a very short stint at company B, and then you're starting at a third company within a year timeframe, which is never good on a resume, in a career journey,
Evaluating Job Offers
00:49:39
Speaker
et cetera. So you don't want to create one false, one bad move can create three moves essentially in your career.
00:49:47
Speaker
So that's one element to it. The other element, too, goes back to a little bit around developing out a plan and criteria for what you want to do, where you want to go, et cetera. So you want to make sure that you have a criteria of how you're evaluating things, from does the role inspire me? Does it challenge me? Will I be able to grow from it professionally? Will I be able to make significant contributions?
00:50:13
Speaker
is there an opportunity for growth long-term at the organization? That one is a little bit trickier because you can't tell too much into the future on it. But being able to develop out a little bit of a criteria of how you're evaluating things will give you a clearer mind of what is the right role for you.
00:50:32
Speaker
Got it. And I think that's an empowering mindset too, which I think is helpful when you're looking for a role like you are not, you don't need to just take anything. You can figure out what you want and then pursue things in line with what you want and not even worry about stuff that doesn't fit. Yeah.
00:50:48
Speaker
I'll say one other element to it too. Say you've been laid off and you've been searching for a year. You can't find anything. Instead, if you're going to jump into another role and it ends up being kind of an interim role for you, you need to stay for a bit of time in order for it to be acceptable on your resume. If you don't do that,
00:51:13
Speaker
The other approach you can take is taking on some consulting short term, because it'll keep you fresh, keep you active in the market, and also show your ability to be successful on your own and leverage your network a bit. But that's when you're in a dire situation, I would say. On the whole, it's best to make sure you're making a clear, sound decision after you've been laid off.
00:51:41
Speaker
take a role you actually want or keep going. If you need income, you can look for consulting opportunities as you search for the right permanent fit. Or maybe third best option is if you get to a point, you're like, I really just need a salary. I got this offer. I'm going to take it. Be prepared to do a year or more because you kind of need to stick it out for a bit at that point.
00:52:09
Speaker
Yes, yes. And I know that the world has changed a little bit where people can make quicker jumps here and there. But on the whole, from a personal growth and professional growth standpoint, if you're an organization for under a year, there's not a whole lot you can accomplish. Yeah. And there's not a whole lot that you'll be able to actually help the organization with. So I don't see those are the elements. And then the last piece is,
00:52:38
Speaker
This goes kind of at the top of this is making sure you have a criteria criteria that you are holding yourself to, to evaluate any type of role. All right. Well, last question in that time remaining time, what are a few red flags for prospective employees that the role is not going to be a good fit and they shouldn't take it and, or what are the green flags?
00:53:04
Speaker
Yes, this is always incredibly interesting because we obviously deal with this a ton from the recruitment side. Because we are a third party for both the client as well as the candidate.
00:53:19
Speaker
And we're really the sounding board for each side. So when we go through a process with an organization, we're getting a debrief on interviews from the candidate side as well as a debrief on interviews from the client side and seeing kind of how it matches up, interests, et cetera.
00:53:37
Speaker
I would say the red flags, the most significant red flag in consistent one tends to be when an interviewer or an organization is only buying and not selling an opportunity.
00:53:53
Speaker
So they are interviewing a prospective employee and asking and drilling down to that prospective employee's experience, but not focused in on the benefit for that prospective
Ward Group Engagement Overview
00:54:06
Speaker
employee. So it's all about what can you do for me versus what can we do for us? Interesting. Okay. So that is definitely a red flag overall. Another red flag, I would say, is
00:54:20
Speaker
And this tends to, this is when you have more than one conversation with a organization, which if you're going through the hiring process, you will have. If the expectations and
00:54:36
Speaker
story of the organization, the culture, what they're trying to solve for are inconsistent. If you have one key stakeholder saying, we need an acquisition marketer, we need to
00:54:52
Speaker
bring in MQLs, and then you have another key stakeholder saying, we need to be out there from a brand side, and we need to have air cover across the board. I don't care about the acquisition side of things. Basically, making sure that the story is succinctly aligned across all
00:55:12
Speaker
all interviewers. And that too comes through not just for the expectations for the role, but also what they think about the organization and what the culture is like there too.
00:55:25
Speaker
That makes a lot of sense to me because being succinct and aligned across the board means that you're communicating with and understanding each other. And if your colleagues or future bosses are not aligned in that way, the role is going to be one of triangulation for the future. And there's going to be a lack of clarity about why you're even there.
00:55:44
Speaker
Yep, absolutely. And what comes with that too on the employer side is preparation, right? And making sure that everyone is aligned on what they're looking for, what they're talking about, and having consistent lines of questioning. So just making sure that you come across as a button-up organization for any prospective employee.
00:56:08
Speaker
So if an organization wanted to work with the ward group, Steve, what could they expect? What would the process be like? Certainly. And so our process is a very high touch approach. So we take great pride in understanding our partners that we work with for each individual opportunity. So a lot of it will be conversations upfront discussing
00:56:39
Speaker
what you're looking for, what the organization is like, what the kind of transformation point is in your organization, where you're looking to go, trying to really uncover who you are, what success looks like for the organization, for the role, for the individual coming into the role, all those different pieces. And then we are in organization two that goes out into the market with all of our senior leaders
00:57:06
Speaker
at consistently throughout the process. We don't have junior recruiters on the staff to go and do initial outreach to individuals and then have a vetting process through senior leadership. What you see is what you get. You all have senior leaders consistently with you throughout the process. Vetting candidates bring you
00:57:27
Speaker
Thoroughly vetted and strong sets of candidates. We like to keep those limited from your end, but we do a high volume NRN from the vetting process. And then we bring you through every stage of the interview process from ensuring strong interviews, acceptance of the role from a candidate, and onboarding too.
00:57:49
Speaker
We like to say we're not just a recruitment organization, but we put a heavy premium on retention. We want individuals and organizations to thrive long-term and not just in the first year. So we make sure that not only will we
00:58:06
Speaker
be a very white glove, highly communicative organization and partner throughout a search, but we're also staying in touch and ensuring long-term adoption for any perspective, or any placement and employee.
Episode Conclusion and Preview
00:58:22
Speaker
Got it. That was really clear and helpful. And I think it gives a good picture. All right, Steve, I know we're a couple of minutes over the million questions, but thank you so much. You gave such actionable advice. I feel like I definitely learned things. I presume that this is going to be really useful to the folks who listen. I'm super grateful for you sharing your wisdom. Like, thank you so much. If people were interested to work with you or the word group, how could they reach out or get in touch?
00:58:52
Speaker
Absolutely. You can email me at sward at wardgroup.com, give us a call at 781-938-4000, or visit our website, wardgroup.com. I would love and happy to talk to anyone who's thinking about what's next in their career or just every networking conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed this, Meredith, and I appreciate all of your time.
00:59:20
Speaker
All right, everyone. Thanks for listening to today's show with Steve. We'll be coming to you next week with a show all about branding with brand expert Kelly Corny. To support the show, you can rate, review, and subscribe. Those things make a huge difference. And if you'd like today's conversation, you'd probably like the Content People newsletter. Subscribe at the link in the show notes. And that's it, folks. Thanks so much for listening.