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Sticky Jazz Interview Tom Kanak
44 Plays4 months ago
A band that you will ask yourself why you have never heard of til now. (That is often the point of this show) New Jersey misfit outfit of overthinking musicians, we get Kanak.
Fronted by Tom Kanak, these guys are best described as The Kinks, meets The Damned, The Ramones and the Might Lemon Drops, and some great Michael Penn and John Lennon in the vocals.
Tom has released some great work over the years, and an all star cast on this new album of Peter Rood from Dramarama, and Johnny Rao from David Johansen's band, these guys are veterans, making music that you really will dive into and enjoy.
We talked about being outcasts, the guys who never were supposed to fit in, girls from outer space, clowns, clown coffee mugs, and giving a telecaster some serious love. Ed Stasium produced this EP "Outside" that will really get you thinking. There is so much understanding of accepting your own failures, and the wisdom to acknowledge things that were wrong, even though you still went through with doing it.
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#stivbators #deadboys #rammones #lordsofthenewchurch #thedamned #peterhook #Johnnythunders #johngrant #brucespringsteen #theboss #davidjohansen #newyorkdolls #fuckyousongs #lloydcole #loveandrockets #bauhaus #reddwarf #addhd #magnolia #aimeemann #thedickies
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Transcript
Introduction and Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Lips from the band Anvil. And this is Rob Reiner. And this is Sacha Givazzi, director of the film Anvil, The Story of Anvil. And you're listening to Sticky Jazz. The opinions expressed on the show are truly those of Jeremy Hinks and Sticky Jazz podcast, and do not necessarily reflect those of anyone else on this planet. And welcome to Sticky Jazz, round whatever this month or year. um Solstice weekend. I hope you're all enjoying your roasting hot summer wherever you are I'm Jeremy Hinks and the man of a million in musical opinions all of which happen to be correct this week I have Tom Kenak from the band Kenak the East Coast ah Rock act that they hail from new Jersey and We covered a lot of crazy in-depth material and just funny stuff in this and
00:00:58
Speaker
Episode the music's fantastic.
'Outside' and Musical Heritage
00:01:00
Speaker
I'm gonna open up with the song outside And so let's all sit back and do the sticky jazz on the solstice weekend I'm on the outside Looking in
00:01:28
Speaker
No matter what I try I can't win It seems there's no time Fucking skin When you're on the outside I know, I know That I should just lay low And I know, yes I know That I checked out
00:01:58
Speaker
Hello, there's nowhere else to go But you're on the outside Why am I on the outside? All alone Because of the truth that I have known And now it is too late
00:02:28
Speaker
When you're home When you're on the outside Let me in, let me in And wash away your sin Let me in, let me in And I'll teach you how to slam Let me in, let me in But I cannot begin When I'm on the outside
00:03:01
Speaker
Different is what you've always been Different is always been your friend Different is what you need to be It's everywhere that you had made Different comes from deep inside Different should always be your guide Different should always give you pride When you're on the other side
00:03:58
Speaker
I know that someone else is show And I know, yes I know That I've moved way too slow And I know, yes I know There's nowhere left to go When you're on the outside
00:04:22
Speaker
Dippin' is what you've always been Dippin' is always been your friend Dippin' is what you need to be It's that red and you found me Dippin' is that spot deep inside Dippin' should always give you pride Because it means that you reside Here on the outside
00:04:54
Speaker
Okay, good day, everybody. Welcome to Sticky Jazz. I'm Jeremy Hanks and I'm in Salt Lake. Today is the 22nd of June, 2024. And I have Tom Kanak. He's a New Jersey rock musician who I think we're gonna get really deep into his work here. And thanks for joining us today, Tom. And you're you're you're hailing from New Jersey, right? The place of situation and Tom waits. Correct. And thank you very much for having me on. I'm excited to chat. Okay. Well, so when I was reading up, I was like, okay, New Jersey. We got and and no no New Jersey jokes. Okay. But i we got like Tom Waits. We've got the boss man. We've got pink.
00:05:49
Speaker
Frankie Valley, they're all from New Jersey. Frank Sinatra, Bon Jovi. Frank Sinatra, Bon Jovi, I was gonna say Bon Jovi, and even Clint Black was from New Jersey. Yeah, that's true as well. Yeah, he's ah like, he doesn't, that he's not really known, but everyone's like, really? Clint Black's from New Jersey? Oh yeah.
Connections and Memories
00:06:07
Speaker
so Yeah, they as a lot of people, you know, were here and left. Um, you know, to some actors and a lot of people that have been, uh, successful from New Jersey, but I'm not, uh, typical New Jersey, uh, music, nothing like the boss or nothing like, um, Oh heavens, no, no, you are very different than Bon Jovi in pink. Yes, you are. So as he drinks from his satanic clown coffee mug, um,
00:06:35
Speaker
so i actually used to work in uh in ocean port oh great that's right but i mean i live in middletown okay oh yeah all right right so yeah i would and i remember i landed port mama's right uh no i i lived in um I worked for Commvault actually. therere oh okay work yeah yeah But yeah I landed in Newark and I thought, okay, here's all the jokes of everything, the the gas and the oil refineries. And then you get like two miles out of there and it's just green everywhere. I'm like, whoa, this is very different. And then I had my my my New Jersey moment.
00:07:13
Speaker
In Oceanport, actually, I was driving around and and there was a yellow T-top 1986 Camaro playing Bon Jovi. Wow. Right in front of me at an intersection. I was like, now that's the New Jersey moment. All right. Now I just need to find Jay and Silent Bob. And then um I've got it, you know. So that Jay and Silent Bob thing was filmed right down the street from where I lived at the original The Clerks. The first Clerks movie was filmed right down the street from my house. um And weirdly, and a really weird thing, when I was a kid, I had a some a medical issue and I was in the hospital. And in the bed next to me was a guy named Donald and Donald and I became friendly. And I realized years later that Donald is the older brother of Kevin Smith. Oh, okay. And Kevin Smith was a well little kid then they were running around in the hospital and his sister and I met the whole family and ah I didn't put two and two together until this year, which is pretty interesting.
00:08:11
Speaker
So I had a boss who, it it simply he was like, ah he grew up, went to Catholic school all there. i said I used to buy weed from Jay when I was in Catholic school. so I've seen some of those guys around. In fact, most of the New Jersey rock guys I've run into met or, you know, seen, just saw Bon Jovi in a restaurant, I don't know, a month and a half ago, something like that. Yeah, he's you I met him and at the Alamo, believe it or not. Oh, really? That's a weird meeting. I was down on a job down there doing some work at the the Air Force Base. And I'm just doing the river walk. And I had i had come down with food poisoning, so I hadn't eaten for three days.
00:08:51
Speaker
so I'm finally like looking for somebody to eat and I'm going along and and he's just sitting out on the patio of some restaurant there and I walk by and I look at him, we make eye contact and I pointed at him and he points back at me, he stands up, shake his hand, I'm like, cool, I just met Bon Jovi and I walked up. you know it was So they he's he's a very friendly guy, i I thought that was cool. My experience has been with all the musicians that I've met over the years. There are very few musicians that aren't nice and good people. um There's a couple, um but for the vast majority, Springsteen, Bon Jovi, Ringo Starr, every big person I've ever met has been very, very polite and very nice. yeah i ah Yeah, I've met a couple that are like, really? What's your problem? But you got to meet them at least three times to get to know if they're really the kind of person that you think they are. Yeah, I agree.
00:09:45
Speaker
And that that's what my my friend Ron said, because he he worked in Hollywood. He said, you got to meet him three times. But then I actually interviewed one artist who was such an asshole. I hung up nine minutes into the interview. And I went into this one. OK, good. We're. Yeah, no. But like nine minutes. I'm like, yeah, thanks for your time, man. You know, out of here. um And ah and the next day's publicist is begging me not to roast him. And then ah Two weeks later, my buddy Ron in Hollywood's like, so I heard you got the blank treatment. I was like, what? He's like, yeah, he's a, he'll do that. You know, that's like, so I'm like known through the industry as the guy who snubbed this one artist. Wow. Can we get t-shirts with that? or Oh, well, I would say just a picture of the person's face, your, your, uh, your, all your station information, your show information. And it's just that circle with the Nancy Reagan circle with the line through it.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think like your publicist, he's like, yeah, yeah he's he was hit and miss, man. So, you know, he your publicist wasn't what I said. that But he's like, yeah, I've heard he's really hit and miss. He does that with people, man. Sorry. You know, it's like, wow. So but well everybody's different. You know, I always like think about it like this for me. I don't know how what that person's life is like. I don't know the path they took to get there. Who knows? I can't judge if I live the same exact life. If I'd be better, worse, the same, I don't know. At the end of the day, I can only control me. And if somebody else is that way, I usually feel just feel sorry for them.
00:11:19
Speaker
Well, so just on that note, like yesterday, it was 35 years ago yesterday that I met Peter Hook from New Order. I'm the i'm the the the basement bass player, you know no nothing special, but I learned every New Order and Peter Hook song ever. right Wow. and Just in case New Order needed to stand in, I was the guy. right And 35 years ago, I met Peter Hook the first time and he he walked out in the crowd during the PIL set. And I held up a big banner and said, Peter Hook, you're the greatest. And he's like, oh, geez, man, all right, du they found me. And so he went over by the side of the stage. We just went over taunted until he came over, said hello and signed it.
00:12:03
Speaker
And he was so nice to us and so gracious and so cool. And to me, it was life affirming. And to him, he was like, if I can get this fanboy to shut up, right? you know But every time since then, he has been so cool to us. just I mean, I've met him, photographed him, all that. you know and And now I know you deep don't fanboy on somebody and and they're gonna be fine. But Peter Hook, Peter Hook is an exceptionally cool person. Well, that's ah but I've never met them. That's very cool to know. And um i I always think like
Musical Influences and Evolution
00:12:37
Speaker
you know with people, they that you essentially are their boss in some way. you know like they you you know the You're the reason that they're able to do what they do.
00:12:46
Speaker
So you have to take that into consideration if somebody wants to talk to you about the most annoying little nuance of, I one time when I was in a band called Mischief, we had a record out called Only Losers Left Alive. And um it was based, there was a book called Only Lovers Left Alive. And we were, I don't know if you remember, Kingsburg boardwalk over here by us. At one point in time, Kingsburg boardwalk was really run down. I mean, my friend were there and we were punks. And, you know, the hippie guys were harassing us and chasing us down the boardwalk threatening to kill us. And we were like, man, only losers are left alive here. And so we just went and wrote a song about it. I was on tour, you know, someplace in upstate New York, playing at the college. And some guy came to me after the show and he was crying. And he's like, that song got me through the death of my girlfriend from cancer. It's true, man. Only losers are left alive. And I'd have the heart to tell like, that is not what that's about. But he took the heat. He took that from it. And it meant something to him. And I was totally fine with it.
00:13:41
Speaker
and then you know if it got him if it meant something to have it helped him out man mission accomplished right yeah yeah yeah absolutely but um then he he laid out a big line of coke and offered it to all of us and we were you know we went on from there it was a long time ago it was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away yeah absolutely free satanic clown coffee mug um Yeah. this one anyway ah So, um, all right. Well, let's, all right. Uh, your publicist, he sent me your work along with another one of his guys and about a month and a half ago. So I actually had listened to some, I was like, man, this is really good stuff. Uh, but that would Danny Sabre was releasing his Michael Hutchins stuff that week. So we, that was why we didn't grab yours that week, but, uh, glad to finally pick up with you now. yeah Um,
00:14:29
Speaker
i I felt you guys, or at least your your new work, right? Because there's clearly the, you know, the the first couple of solo records that now connect, which is just the, you know, the the new band or the new approach with the new producer. But you sound like Ramones with the damned, some mighty lemon drops, and on occasion, Michael Penn on vocals. Wow, that I was like, this is good. This is a good mix. Those are all bands that I like. So that's good. um It's weird. The original the solo stuff that I was doing before was, you know, um I took time off from trying to be a musician because I had four kids in a short period of time in ah in the late 90s.
00:15:20
Speaker
And so I wanted to be a good dad and so I took tried to take some time off, but I couldn't do it. I kept writing and writing and I was like, at night I would go upstairs and write for hours. And I had all this material and we just started to release it. So some of it wasn't as new, but this new EP um is all brand new stuff that's written in the last couple of the last two years. and you know Strangely produced by Ed Stasium, who was the Ramones producer. um so you know It should probably sound a little bit like Ed's band. Ed ed is a really great producer for a guitar band, so he did a great job of this. Yeah. I enjoyed what I was hearing there. I was like, man, this guy, you just grab so many good sounds and mix them together well. that's i because you you know Sometimes you get somebody that even have a fabulous producer, but they they put sounds in there that just don't belong.
00:16:10
Speaker
had that happened. Yep. Yes. Trombone and metal stop, you know, there, there are some that I've, and I love weird clashes and stuff, you know, big toopa fan. I'm a huge Zappa fan, but even there, I'm like, Frank, you probably should have done that. So I like Zappa. i um I was never good enough. Like even the same thing when I was growing up, Prague Rock was really a big deal. You know, like the first concert I ever saw was either Rush or Van Halen. And then, you know, there was everybody was into Yes! and all those things. My voice was never, even before puberty, my voice was never high enough to sing those songs. And then I was never that good a guitar player that I could play all that stuff in the time signatures. I was a big Beatle guy and
00:16:52
Speaker
You know, a rock and roll guy, ah British Invasion, The Who, The Stones, that sort of stuff. I like the knack when they came out. Cheap trick. And then- I mean, you're already knocking out. Okay. You've already answered six questions. Okay. Makes my job easy. Keep going. Sorry. um And then, ah so I was in, this is so silly. I was in a rock and roll band and in our neighborhood, there was a band of these guys who were punks and they were spray painting. band names on arts per or whatever. I have no idea. i I was just in that band. But the guys in the band wanted to fight them. And, um you know, it was always this tension. And one day I went into the bathroom in high school and I met a guy in there and he had a cassette Walkman and he's like, hey, you're that guy. I'm like, hey, you're that guy. He was from the other gang. And um he played me and listen to Sonic Reducer on the headphones. And that was it. That day I went to his house. We formed a band. We started playing punk.
00:17:46
Speaker
um You know, Love Generation X, Sham 69, The Damned, obviously the Sex Pistols, and the Dead Boys. And he was friends with the Dead Boys. I don't know how, he somehow knew them. So we would go, when I was 15, 16 years old. You'd hang with Stiv Bader. We would go to New York and hang out with the Ramones, the Clash, Stiv, the Wards of the New Church we were friends with. I mean, I got to see a lot of those great bands. um It was a very weird, interesting time. But all those older guys in beds were really sweet to us and protective of us because we we're kids. And it was such a great experience. And I look back at now, look back on it now really fondly and i have great memories. I mean, you know, we spent a lot of time with the Lords and a lot of crazy things happened. But it was cool. I saw a lot of things I shouldn't have seen as a 15 year old. But ah it was ah it was good, good character built.
00:18:40
Speaker
I started going backstage to concerts when I was 16. I met Peter Hook when I was 15, but I started going backstage when I was 16. Same thing. And it was weird being back there with my idol, realizing that, oh, those are hookers. you know um I thought you were married. Oh, those are hookers. Why? Well, because I saw her, I saw those two girls backstage at this other show a couple of weeks ago. And it just, that was a, you know, again, I'm the Mormon kid. I grew up Mormon and this all needed to be, you know, oh, well, like I remember the first time I went backstage and I saw one of my faves and he was doing lines and that was,
00:19:19
Speaker
That was difficult, you know, but at the same time, I remember on the tour bus and there was um Scott Whelan. Yeah. Whiplashing. Yeah. and No, we he wasn't on tour, he was backstage and they said he he doesn't even do it on the, he was backstage, not even going onto the tour bus before he smacked up. Wow. I was like, Oh man, that was, you know, again, I was young and it was, that was heavy to to see happening, but I think for me, like I saw some of that as well. And ahll the first time I ever went to see the Heartbreakers um at the old Peppermint Lounge, I was backstage and there was a bunch of people back there and they announced Johnny Thunders and Johnny was laying and they announced the Heartbreakers. Johnny Thunders was laying on the couch. I thought he was dead.
00:20:05
Speaker
and he they couldn't revive him, they were smacking him, they were doing smelling salts, they were trying to shake him. Somebody gave him a shot of something on B12, I don't know what it was, something. He jumped up, ran on stage and played a full set and then came off. But I mean, I actually thought he was dead and I was like, holy shit, I'm here at this moment, you know, and so. Yeah, it's, again, I was talking to one guy, again, I'll leave him nameless, but did we were talking last week and he he said, you know, being in these situations, all the blow, everything there, right? He's like, on tour, you're in your own little bubble of how you can behave. So the worst part is when you're on tour, once you're done, then you're home.
00:20:49
Speaker
It's like when you're on tour, you're like, okay, are we gonna get enough blow for the next gig? you know and the that you know But he says, but you get home, then like, now how do I structure my life around doing yard work and coming down from all this? And he said, that's that's where it's really rough, is the coming home. And I'm like, he said like Peter Rockstar does have, it's it's fun, and all it but I'm like, oh i don't want i I wouldn't want it that way. you know it's it's it It just sounds really, really, rough to what these guys all go through up there like you're saying that Johnny Thunders is there they had to go and pop him with b12 probably some adrenaline there and but how was his performance that night by the way he was he was great he was engaging and charming he played really well i've seen other times and he was too drunk and he couldn't he couldn't get through the first song and the show was over you know whatever
00:21:38
Speaker
um but that night he was really good. I was really, I was impressed but I was also pretty scared. I was never really a big drug guy, you know, smoked pot, a couple of drinks but I was always, um I always wanted to make sure that I was in control of my, you know, um self and not get too crazy but I mean the thing that you mentioned about the the you know the difference between day job, normal life, and on tour. When I was in um Well Souls, which was one of my previous bands,
00:22:10
Speaker
No, we would I would come home. I would work as a waiter, whatever I could to make money for a few months. And then we would go back. We would book our own tours. And and we were doing d DIY before I even knew what that was. And I was waiting on a table one time and the kid goes, oh, my God, you're the singer from Wells Souls. He's like, what the hell are you doing here? And I just ruined my night. I just felt so sad. I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot. I'm not really important. But, ah you know, I had to sign an autograph while I'm, you know, bringing the salad. It's really crazy. So, well, I was, I was hearing, I don't know if you know who John Grant is, but he's going to come up later in the conversation.
Waiting on Legends and Song Meanings
00:22:45
Speaker
um John Grant wrote the greatest fuck you song ever written called Queen of Denmark. And, um, and he, he also wrote a song called Sigourney Weaver. Oh, yeah and I used to, I used to date Sigourney Weaver's nieces. One of them lives a block away from me. Still, oh you know, we're all friends, but I said, I said, have you met her? He said, I waited on her once she got the chicken. yeah
00:23:07
Speaker
That's funny. I mean, i as a waiter, I waited on so Bruce Springsteen and I waited on ah Paul Servino and I waited on um one of the other guys from the ah the mob movies, ah Pesci, Joe Pesci. Oh, Joe Pesci, yeah. yeah So Joe Pesci, Paul Servino from the Rocky movies and Springsteen were my three big, ah not in that order, ah waiting on people famous. And what were they like? I mean, Everybody, so like I said, everybody, I mean, I'm always polite to people. I never infringe or anything. I know I don't get too fanboy. All the people that I wanted to be fanboy with are dead. um You know, John Lennon would probably be the only one that I would fanboy. Well, we'll get to John Lennon in a minute. Go on. But, you know, I was polite. They were polite. And I've met Bruce a couple of times and one of the times I met him. That was a Sunday night and I was at a ah but looked like a diner and it was like three in the morning, pretty drunk.
00:24:02
Speaker
um and outside having a cigarette when I used to smoke. And he came up and that day he had been on the cover of the Arts and Leisure section of the Asper Park Press, a big photo of him. And on the bottom was a big photo of me. And and I saw him and I'm like, hey, and he's like, hey, I saw you take the picture. And we talked and so it was really sweet. Nice. I asked him a lot of questions because he had just jumped up and played a song with Ringo locally. And I was like, you got to play the beetle. And he's like, yeah, we talked about it for a while. How amazing it was. He played twist and shout. And, you know, it was pretty cool. Yeah, for everybody said that about the boss, they said that
00:24:42
Speaker
when he's on stage and working that way he's very strict very tight very you know regimented don't bother me weve got to get this done right right but he's not on stage he's goingnna be the sweetest nicest guy and it sounds like it yeah really friendly the the the
00:25:02
Speaker
But I mean, again, that's, you know, that's what allows you to do what you do. Right. So um and there's tons of stories of people that, you know, have been nasty people. And over time, that's come back to bite them in the ass because they were industry learn to hate them or whatever. I mean, there's some artists that are like that. um But ah Bruce, definitely not one of them. And again, most of the people that I met have been pretty, pretty cool. Okay, so like let's get rolling into some of this, okay? So, all right, first of all, I'm pretty sure I've met Peter Wood in Drummerama over the years. ah Good guy. um if he was in If he was on Lost 80s tour about two years ago, I got his autograph on a vinyl somewhere.
00:25:45
Speaker
it' so it is I have his autograph on the CD right here. and I don't know which one is his. I only know which one is mine. We did ah we did a crowdfunding and we're so I'm getting ready to send stuff out. So I made those guys sign a ton of CDs the other day. Yeah, it's like I was working the I was photographing the last 80s tour and I met Tommy two tone drama. You just everybody that was in the like okay coming through and talking about fanboy. I met Astrid plane from animation. Wow. She walks up to me and goes, hey, did you get good pictures? And I'm like, yes. And my ears and my inner 12 year old is going, oh, shit. Oh, you have she's like, well, hey, here's here's my email. Send me some pictures like, yeah. Oh, that that was that was something other than fanboy musician here. there was She was getting you know all that. She's still hot. Astrid playing is still hot. But
00:26:42
Speaker
So let's see, outside, right? That is one hell of a song right there. Thanks, thank you. And ah you and I'll probably, we could spend an hour on that song. Had a really good kinks rip to it, right? I was like, oh man, this this feels so good. it just It just kicked up really well. I was listening to it. Let's see, let's go with the line. Now it's too late to go home. When you're on the outside, let me in. ah and I'll teach you how to swim. Difference is always what you've been. It's always been your friend. Difference should always be your guide when you're on the outside. Give me a little bit about that because I so related to this, so related to that song.
00:27:28
Speaker
Go ahead. So um I think like a lot of people that are creative or, you know, there's a whole I don't know if it's a subculture or just a ah group of people just don't quite fit the mold of the average person and not not bad, you know, for better or for worse. but I'd never fit in. I've always said things that people thought were weird, or I was always too smart for the people I was hanging out with, or I liked things that nobody else liked, and I've always been an outsider. And the song is a, and I do this in a lot of songs, like I start writing something that's really dark or personal, and then I'll be like, hey, wait a second. I want to make it not a death song, you know, and people killing themselves. So I put a positive message in the middle, and it is true. Difference is a strength.
00:28:17
Speaker
And you know if you are different, that makes you unique. That is your superpower sometimes. So the whole song was really a song that I wrote. like I remember a feeling about something, and i and I write the lyrics about that. It all stemmed from I had an old microcosette of some song I was trying to write in 1990 something. But when I recorded it on the microcosette, the batteries on the microcosette were going down. So it was a whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And so I wrote the rip down, down, down, on ah off the the warped battery ah part of the song. And then once I wrote that, then I just the lyrics came pretty quick. I i always tweak lyrics up until we record them. I mean, I'll i'll have a pen and be standing there going, and hold on a second. Don't run tape on changing the song.
00:29:01
Speaker
But I really care about words and I want them to be really concise and I try to have an economy of words and I really try to make them mean something. I i tried to do cover music and be in a cover band and I just couldn't like relate to 867-5309. They don't mean much to me in terms of connection. All of my songs that I write are written from someplace inside of me where I allowed myself to feel a feeling that I felt or an emotion that I felt that was, you know, intense in some way. And I try to capture what that feels like. Outside, you know, right away came to me because of that's a very familiar feeling to me. Even when not like I have a day job, even when I go to work, people are talking about the things they do on the weekend. And I'm like, I i don't care about anything.
00:29:49
Speaker
ah I don't watch football games. I don't care about baseball, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, mine is like, oh, go I got this new barbecue. And I'm like, I don't like to even go outdoors. thats That's not entirely true. but yeah ah Mine is like, well, I watched the Super Bowl when you two were the halftime show. I watched the the Springsteen one too. That was pretty cool, right? And it's like, I don't know or care about the Super Bowl, right? you know and Uh, okay. Cool part of the story. That was the happy accident of the batteries in the tape going war because, because it came out with something pretty cool. Right. yeah Those happy accidents are, you know, always a little spice of magic. I think that unintentionally happened. And afterwards you feel like, wow, that seems like it was meant to be somehow. Oh yeah. I mean, did you, cause like you said, you probably want to come up with that riff if had you not, you know, well done. That was cool. So.
00:30:41
Speaker
um See, when I was going through that song, I was like, yeah, that was me in high school. I was the kid with, you know, the Eurogoth mullet, right? Trench code, different. band t-shirt for every day of the month, combat boots, you know, I'm reading Machiavelli. I liked, I liked. I would have been friends with you in high school. Cause that's, that was my, I had spiked hair, bleach blonde. I wore a leather jacket every day, whether it was, you know, 90 degrees or 40 degrees. Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It looked cool. I mean, I had my leather biker jacket with, you know, and I thought I was cool because I had, you know, cassette tapes of new model army that nobody else had ever heard of.
00:31:22
Speaker
So yeah, there I was. I didn't, I was the guy leather jacket. I never wore sneakers or tennis shoes all through high school, right? wow And I knew model army tapes and things that nobody else had ever heard of. and there But there's this one girl that i I liked and she was really nice to me and we would talk on occasion and she was really hot, but she was normal. Right. You know, you know exactly what I'm saying. exactly And at our 20 year reunion, I was talking to her and she said, you know, Jeremy, you were so mysterious and so cool. Like you're reading these books by people nobody had ever heard of. And then you're wearing all these bands that were like, I wonder what that band is like because they didn't have Napster or Spotify back then. Right. it's like
00:32:16
Speaker
I don't know I'd never heard of half the bands you had these t-shirts for and we were just like whoa that Jeremy guy so you know she said I would have loved to have hung out with you but I didn't even know how to approach someone as like far out as you man and I was like I would have love to hang out with you but you were so normal you know and and i and this song outset was just perfect to that experience you know i mean we're now at our 20 year reunion and you know dropping my kids off at soccer games and her kids are there and we're talking and you know it's funny that that's what we were like now you know to say that it would have been that so cool
00:32:55
Speaker
you know it's that whatever people will get you know But she wasn't ready for it there. She was still going through something else and you were at a different on a different path. You could look over and see each other on the path and wonder, but sometimes different path is too different. um But to me, i you know like you know being someone who's like always fellow, and I still feel like an outsider now. like i mean I'll go to, I went to my 40th high school reunion last fall, I think. And I still felt like, you know, and I mean, you know, the people there, are all normal people for the most part, there was nobody else. I mean, in my high school, that was sort of like me, i had you know, the bass player. and was I was in a band called Mischief in high school that was on Mother Records and we released a record and toured and played with the Ward's New Church and did a bunch of really cool things. And then I would go to school in the morning and the jocks would be like, you punk rock, you know, kick your ass, you know, like,
00:33:45
Speaker
Like all of that. I have a question though. You mentioned high school and that you never wore sneakers. Did you change your shoes for Jim? i No, I never took Jim. Oh, how? I got art credit. I got Jim credit and art credit for taking dance. Wow, so I'm in there learning ballet and and and you know that's demi play and tourgite that was that was my gym class there man I was like I'm not you know wow um I uh I also never took gym and when I was in ninth grade I had broken my leg in the summer and the doctor said um you know I'm going to give you an exception from gym and he left ninth it was one nine space
00:34:29
Speaker
and I put the graduation year end of the school year and it was like 19 and I should have put a different I should have put the year it was in but I put you know the full you know years later when I would graduate so I never had to take gym it was the greatest thing ever I never had to get sweaty never had to change out of my clothes never had to take my work puts off no I I so I was martial artist and uh
00:34:53
Speaker
One time a couple of jocks decided that they were going to, oh, you faggot, you're in ballet and shit, right? Yeah. And so three of them decided they were going to try and kick my ass in the gen in the locker room. And I had a deodorant stick. i blind and I hit one of them in the right spot. I blinded him. Wow. And I was like, come on, fellas. dure I'm waiting. there um a guy He's blind. He won't be able to see for an hour. Come on, guys. Let's do this. Wow. And they backed off, man. They they were like, whoa, this guy's like, you know, it just took once doing that. They all left me alone after that, you know.
00:35:32
Speaker
Yeah, i ah I was pretty, I was okay. I mean, it for me, it was just verbal abuse. It was never physical. And the funny thing is, years later, like some of those guys came and saw me play and be like, dude, I always knew you had it. and You know, you're great. I've got all your, you know. And it's a weird thing. Like you want to, say like I am always tempted to say, yeah, you know, you were a total dick back then. I'm not sure what the fuck you're coming up. You know, did you forget? But there's no value in that to me. So I would just polite him. ah Well, I, there was one guy, like I was always getting rasped by the football players because our school was the state champions, right? We were, yeah we were undefeated and all that and whatever and and football. And, and so the supporters were given free reign to be total pricks. And then, uh, one guy, he, he was going to come and kick my ass saying, and yo, you're not going to melt to nothing. Cause you're like football. I'm like,
00:36:24
Speaker
You know, and he was, and, uh, I saw him a while back a few years ago. And I mean, like, I had, he was so funny cause he, he like wanted to sit there and talk about back when he was cool. And I'm like, you never were cool. You know, I always thought you were. And work again, we're at the reunion and he was like, it's like, so what are you doing? I was like, I'm, uh, engineering missile tests for the military out and, you know, and how about you? Oh, I got a landscaping business. I'm like, you know, yeah, you, you, you made it buddy. You know, cause he, so he, I.
00:37:03
Speaker
But being the outsider, like like you and I were talking about, I felt that. it was so I so related to that. And it turned out to be actually a blessing. you know nothing it It was not the, gee, i'm so I'll never fit in. I'm never going to be successful in life. you know Look at us, man. We did pretty good. you know yeah And so i I really thought that was great to to just have someone that you wrote that out there. It was fun. I got that. Yeah, i was proud of I was proud of the way that that came out because it said the message that I wanted to say in ah in a concise way that people could pick up on. and
00:37:43
Speaker
You know, it made me feel good to write it and also realize that, you know, there are so many of us who are actually feel like we're the outsiders that we probably are the majority. But, um you know, it's nice to to call out that thing that like what makes you different and unique that other people are afraid of is really, really something special to be, um you know, embraced. Yeah, I never thought I needed to be normal. Why can't you just be normal? Yeah, I never wanted to be that either. Yeah, that's boring. you know kids Kids would be like, let's go throw rocks at cars. And I'm like, I'm reading Helter Skelter. I will see you later. When I was in grade school, I was reading all these weird books and similar to what you're talking about. like I always wanted to know something.
00:38:28
Speaker
the the yeah's it's like there i remember trying to read it in english and anything maybe be easier in french and at the end it's it's the ramon song gaba gaba hey like what the he was yeah I didn't realize that he was on on shrooms and cocaine when he was writing. so they're you know Anyway, your song without a clue, okay, loved it. I was like, okay, this one's heavy. And you're there in a straight jacket, a makeshift straight jacket. um Let's see, here's your- I actually weirdly have a straight jacket for some reason. I thought I would use it. and you know
00:39:18
Speaker
So you had to, you're like, hey, let's do it for the video. Yeah. Well, my my wife's like, give have all the shit that you got to get rid of. I'm like, no, I'm going to use it someday. So part of the reason was I use it. I'm like, see, I told you it was good. So what about this other 9000 things? But I like weird things and I have them in the house. And not everybody's a fan of that in my house. I guess if you were to see my office, you would you would probably relate to my office. Yes. um I, my wife's like, will you ever get written out? So we just put it all in here and close the door so she never has to see it. ah But there's the line. It's time to start drawing all those tears. I was crying for you and you left me crying. There's no denying it's true. Here's to you. And I don't know what the hell I'm going to do about it. I find myself ah all alone and end up without a clue. So fuck you. That was, that was,
00:40:13
Speaker
Okay, first of all, that wrote the the song had so much, you remember the band Bad Finger, right? Yeah, of course. Awesome. One of my favorites. That's got a great Bad Finger vibe to it. Okay. And some really good Bob Mould guitar. Yeah, so for me, I i wrote this really poppy, song the the lyrics are the the verse lyrics are pretty much the same and so I wrote this Poppy song and the rest of the band was like it's gay or too poppy or whatever it is that you know like they wanted to shoot it down so I was like i so I sat down and thought about like well what am I trying to say and what I was trying to say was like you really hurt me it's not going to kill me but fuck you for thinking you could really hurt me and not have any conscience about it
00:41:00
Speaker
And I think again, it's one of those things that I feel feel like most people have been in that situation where they you know thought that they had something special with somebody and that person thought of it differently and treated you poorly. And at some point in time, you just had enough is enough. You did this to me. I'm never going to forget that you did this to me, but it's not going to bring me down. Okay. forget you, forget your game, just like in my heart. um I would put this up there with, you know, in in the top 10, fuck you songs ever written. Thanks. Thanks. i ah Last night we played and there was Johnny, you know, ah Johnny Rios, the guitar player in the band. And Johnny played with David Johansson and he's originally from Staten Island. There was a whole bunch who played in Esri Park last night.
00:41:49
Speaker
And a whole bunch of people from Staten Island came and I said, I think this is a song that the Staten Island people will really appreciate. ah It's affectionately known in our, you know, people that come see us play all the time as the Fuck You song. um And they did like it. Well, okay. it's It's like, it's up there with 9 million rainy days by the Jesus and Mary chain. Not nearly as dismal or dark. And not nearly as funny, let me just pimp slap you as the queen of Denmark by John Grant, but it fits right well in there. Thanks. You know, like that. I don't know if you like the wedding present did song called brass neck, which was also just a winner of a fuck you song. So.
00:42:30
Speaker
the you know, a jangly alternative to me with a little bit of ah an edge and um the lyricers are sort of sacrony during the verse and a little ah poppy. But it has that, you know, that snarl in it that I know. Yeah, it was brilliant. That was it. That was a fun one to do. I was I was like, man, I can enjoy this great guitar riffs in there, too. I was. Let's see, not right now.
00:43:11
Speaker
who Okay, when when you're talking about Ed as your producer, right? that That's got some serious, musically, that was the damned and the Ramones, having a oh having a ah dance-off, man, that was ah that was fun. So I will say, ah for clarification, we recorded that after Ed's. We had done a bunch of songs at Ed's and one of them was so sometimes you go in the studio and you have an idea and you think you're ready and then you start playing around with and you realize we haven't found it yet. We're still, you know, circling the toilet, if you will.
00:43:48
Speaker
um ah So for that one of the other songs didn't make it and so we wanted another song and I had that song and I really wanted to record it um because to me it's ah it is like that snarly punk song like I was thinking Sex Pistols and and the damned a little bit but you know it is that song about you know, like, again, apparently, I'm a psychopath. um ah But it's that song about, you know, like, that you never have time for what I need. It's always about somebody. It's like, I know a lot of narcissists, I actually might, I don't think I'm one, maybe. um But I know a lot of narcissists, and it's like being in a relationship with a narcissist or everything is about them. There's always a problem. They're always bitching and moaning. And
00:44:30
Speaker
You know, you're like, and you ask for when it's your turn. It's like, Oh, there's always some excuse why you got to wait to get your turn at the, at the fountain, if you will. Well, so, okay.
Song Inspirations: 'Now Close Your Eyes' and 'Mistake'
00:44:40
Speaker
Uh, the line, hallelujah. I see what you're doing now. Yeah. Uh, I don't claim to know your game, but this thing will change just not right now. I i'm like just, okay. That was a fun one. Okay. Definite winner there. Um, let's see.
00:44:58
Speaker
Your song, now close now close your eyes, right? That opened with some very, very early Bunnyman sound, like the very early, I was like, this is familiar, loved it. um dan Then we had some talking heads in there, like, wow, this these guys are eclectic, man. you're You're able to mix these things together really well. But the the lyrics, and and it might just be just because of my day job, and I've been researching nuclear strikes. um
00:45:29
Speaker
I felt like, what are we covering in this song? Are we drinking poison? Are we overdosing? Are we waiting for a nuclear bomb to hit, right? ah Because there was a lot of anxiety. and Where do we turn to now that we've been struck down? Now that everything is unraveling, things are changing fast, make the seconds last. I will be there when you close your eyes. It is ah ah like a post-apocalyptic love song. When COVID hit, um you know i was you know everybody was staying home and I was with my my, now she's my wife with my girlfriend at the time. I think i think we weren't married then, I don't remember.
00:46:08
Speaker
um And I was thinking, you know, like, what is true love about? True love is, you know, sticking with that person through the worst of it and just being grateful that you had somebody in those last moments. And it is in its own weird way, I think, a love song. And I was just imagining that feeling. I felt very nervous about COVID and my father got COVID and died. and ah my wife Stephanie's grandmother got COVID and died and you know it was sort of that thing like you know we're stuck in the house all the time together and we're like man what's going on and that feeling is what I tapped into to write that song so in in a way it is a love song.
00:46:45
Speaker
okay i i was again i'm thinking nuclear strikes and all the advice of where you hide in the house and how are you supposed to handle thing like is it what like has he been watching these these nuclear bomb safety videos and shit that you know come out in the sixty s you know seven i was like there was a lot in here like man there is there is there' is a lot of anxiety there's a lot pre present but yeah okay so But the anxiety is based on something cataclysmic. Oh, yeah. no and um And, you know, just, you know, like, i like, you know, you i used to watch the Twilight so Zone, you see that that there's like, yeah you you know, it's the last day on Earth, what do you do in the last day on Earth, if you only have so much time left? I sort of factored that into it as well, like thinking, you know, what would I do what my wife and I do if this is the last day? and Okay.
00:47:32
Speaker
other than kill the annoying neighbor. I don't know. That's a joke. I don't have annoying neighbors. So, um cause that was intense. that And then mistake. Oh, that was fun. Yeah. I got such a kick out of that. Like they had some great early, you know, a great U2 light guitar in there, but that that one, let's see, that are you a Lloyd Cole fan? Uh, no, not super familiar. No. Okay. Cause I was like, I, I listed a lot of Lloyd Cole. He writes about bad relationships. Right. im done And this one was great about a failure. Obviously this is such a failure of a relationship. yeah Her love was a buzzing saw.
00:48:23
Speaker
As it cut me, I stared in awe, looked down at the bits, not sure what to make of it, was cut in two before I knew she grabbed half and had a laugh. I asked for glue. Yeah. It's a, I think that some, so my current life is like horror film fan. a war a whirlwind of intensity. And I'd never been in a relationship with somebody who is so intense. And that's what it really is about for me. It's like...
00:48:56
Speaker
that That song is just like, and I've seen it before, like there's been really like some some women that I met that were really strong and sometimes I got scared by that, but I was also fascinated at the same time. Like you're drawn to that thing that you know is gonna destroy you, but you go anyway and you just let it happen because that experience has some magic to it.
00:49:17
Speaker
Okay. Thus, and in the midst of the first kiss, I knew something was a mess. And now, you know, with a twist when I first kissed her. Okay. Yeah. So that, that, that kind of answers or explains the. Yeah. Yeah. It's a. It's, you know, again, it's just like, uh, uh, I'm stunned by something that happened and I'm just trying to relate to it. It's almost like somebody saying one time I've, I found this crazy love and it was the, the love of my life was this big explosive thing and it destroyed me. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Lloyd Cole records. Yes. I will have to listen to some more. Uh, his album don't get weird on me, babe. Nuff said right there. Okay. Thank you. Um,
00:50:00
Speaker
um Let's see, girl from outer space. So that show, the bass player wrote that song and then we finished it off together with the lyrics. And I didn't have, I mean, I cleaned up the lyrics a little bit. um You know, Joe's a very quirkiest person. In fact, last night after the show, somebody was talking to us and I said something very awkward. And, you know, because sometimes, you know, you like I don't know, I overthink everything I'm a lunatic in some ways. And socially, sometimes I, you know, like, I have a hard time with small talk sometimes. So I said something to somebody, you know, backstage that was talking to us and the person made a face. And then Joe said something, the person looked at him and totally distracted him. So I said, you know, I said to Joe, like,
00:50:44
Speaker
Thank God I know you because anytime I feel like I'm the weirdest person I know, you walk by and I feel so much better. ah So, Girl From Outer Space is Joe's song, you know, about a relationship where, you know, he can't connect, he can't relate to somebody, he's in a relationship with somebody who's just so far out there. um And, you know, we cleaned the lyrics up and tried to make it as hooky as possible. It's a little more jangly pop, like a REM-ish to me or something like that than most of the other stuff that we do. ah In fact, we don't we don't play that anymore live. It's just the new lineup because that was before Johnny joined. So the new lineup and it's the same. it's We changed drummers went from one Steve to another Steve. We like to keep it to Steve's so we can remember that.
00:51:31
Speaker
um But we replaced drummers and Johnny joined the band and that changed, made the, made the next couple projects a little bit angrier a little harsher, a little punkier, um but Girl From Outer Space was right before that. Okay, because what a line you're a girl from outer space who lives in an imaginary world. the me the worst mind reader in the world. Oh, yeah. That's Joe. That's Joe. Well, give give him all and give him a thumbs up for me, man. Great. I'm going to tell him that you liked to only the parts that I. OK. OK. But if he listens to this episode, he will. He will. Yeah. Yeah. I will tell him he yeah he he writes weird stuff, but it's good. No. Great lines. Those are some fun lines. So after singing these songs, I'm just going to say, like, OK,
00:52:19
Speaker
Aside from Nine Inch Nails, just can't stand them. And I really think Trent's an asshole and I can't believe this is going out there in the world. But I've noticed that people that are the hardest in their music with the harshest emotions and the themes in their sounds are usually some of the nicest, friendliest, goofiest people when they're not like swans. right, in ministry, right? I don't know if you, like, like when they're not on stage singing, being, done whatever, they're the greatest, happiest, friendliest, and I'm like, when when you're doing all this depressed music, how do you feel after you play a set? Are you just the like, oh, I'm feeling great, I'm happy. Like, how is how is it, after you play these songs, how do you feel after a good show with this stuff?
00:53:08
Speaker
Um, in a lot of ways it's cathartic. Um, I, this is how I sort of address the damage that I've suffered over the course of my life. And when I'm on stage, it allows, I just let that feeling those emotions channel. And in some ways it it helps because you're letting something that you feel happen. You're letting it flow through you, almost controlling it, even though that might be sort of a, you know, you know, not actually accurate. But on stage, I just feel those emotions and let those emotions go through. And I'm not thinking about anything but feeling all that, you know, I'm saying the words, but I'm feeling the words. And then afterwards, I'm usually pretty drained, I jump around a lot on stage, and I'm usually pretty intense. And then um afterwards, I, you know, I can't sleep for almost totally wired. And it takes me forever. That's why I went to bed like I think at at four o'clock or 430 something this morning. So
00:54:05
Speaker
Do you feel like a cyber relief? like ha it just No, it's an addictive thing for me, that feeling. and it has not it I mean, I love that the audiences and people are into it and that you're able to share that, but just having that feeling flow through you and being in that moment and creating it within the framework with all these other guys. and and We have three guitars, which is like a Rossington Collins thing, but um you know we just playing all the little parts and feeling all those feelings, it's ah It is like ah almost a magic, and I am so addicted to it. I love to write, I love to record, and I love to to play these songs live. Last night was a great night. We had a great show. I was really, really connected to the songs. and
00:54:49
Speaker
It's sounding pretty epic, the way you're talking about, like, I wish I was out there. What, Staten Island you are in, right? No, we're, we played in Ezra. I'm in central New Jersey. We played in, um, uh, Ezra Park last night, just some people. Oh, Ezra Park, okay. We played at the Wonder Bar, which is a pretty decent-sized club, and sound was great. The MJ, this woman who does sound there, is really one of the best, and, you know, we had a really good night. Shout out to MJ, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, let's see, your song, Who Do You Blame? yeah That was when I finally realized you have a certain hook in your voice. It's very John Lennon. and I was like, that's like Michael Penn meets John Lennon. It was really cool. I was. Thanks.
Band Contributions and Personal Battles
00:55:30
Speaker
But let's see, in that video, right, that your telecaster got some serious love in there. and But you're a bassist in that. That's Joe. That's Joe. He's fantastic. I was watching. I was like, man. Because again, I'm the i'm the living room bassist, you know? I don't really. But watching that guy, like, jeez, he's you you got a real prize there with a bassist. He's fantastic. he's ah He's really good. He actually came in to do sessions with me. as so When I took time off for music to to be a good dad, because, you know, my dad wasn't a great dad and I wanted to be better. So I really wanted to focus on that and cared about and was conscientious. And I tried to stop doing music and secretly wrote this whole record and I called Undertow and Undertow is just this like.
00:56:17
Speaker
You know how do you overcome your damage and it's like the day in the life of somebody who's living that groundhog day over and over and trying to make to change the the impact of the damage. Really intense 30 songs like really psychological like my therapist said I just needed to listen to that and I didn't need to talk to you I understood who yeah what was going on. Um, but, uh, Joe came in to do those sessions and it was, you know, it was me, him and a drummer and, you know, the producer Billy Siegel, who's from the Whirling Dervishes. I don't know if you've ever heard the Dervishes. They're a pretty good, uh, band that's, uh, doing a reunion show with us, uh, next month. But we took three years to record the record, um, because it's 30 songs and
00:56:56
Speaker
And afterwards, Joe and I just kept playing and then, you know, it was the Tom Canack band for a while. And then I realized, you know, it's really more of a band and I really wanted everyone to contribute. um you know I didn't want to have to write everybody's parts and yell at everybody, and I really wanted everybody to contribute. And you know all those other influences make it different and unique. um So Joe is the my favorite bass player that I played with. He he plays bass the way I imagine that I can, although I can't.
00:57:28
Speaker
I think, well, I'm a fan of his bass playing. I think tell him ninety he's fantastic. But again, I learned, I could play everything by New Order Joy Division, a couple of Baja songs. one or two loving rockets and we got to get out of this place by the animals right that's like that's the entire catalog of bass lines i could ever play right you know just we just played that song out in la with matt pinfield at the viper room three weeks ago four weeks ago uh we got to get out of this place matt matt got up and it was uh matt's birthday party at the viper room and we played a set and um
00:58:07
Speaker
Matt got up and sang with us, although Joe wasn't on, Joe couldn't make the trip. So it was the rhythm section from Drama Rama. So it was Tony Snow, the drummer and Mike Davis, the bass player with Pete, Johnny and myself. And Matt got up and sang it and did a great job. And it's a really cool song. I forgot, you know, that I'd forgotten about. So it's weird that you mentioned it as one of the, as one of the 40 songs. you but Yeah. Yeah. Like anything new order. And then, Hey, can you do, we got to get out of this place. Yeah. And like, you know, That's a weird night at a gig when you that all those songs and then you know that song pops up. It's just like Well, yeah, that was one of the first ones I ever learned actually I was I saw I was at 11 Rockets gig in 89 and they started playing it And I was like wait, I know this song. It's really cool.
00:58:53
Speaker
Oh, I've never heard they two version. I've never heard that. They did it live on the tour. Yeah. Oh, wow. I'd like to. So I always fascinated by good covers like, you know, to make it your own. So well, but if you're 11 Rockets fan, imagine them doing it. They were gone. It was fantastic. Wow. that is that Is it out? Is it somewhere I can find it? but I have a bootleg of it somewhere if you want a copy of it. Yeah, I'd like to. I'd like to hear it because I am fascinated by the science of of good cooking to cover your own. Yeah. Yeah. so but you know because they had their they they were yeah i mean love it have you seen loving rockets live no oh man you you have you have not lived until you've seen those cats live they are amazing in concert oh but but they have their their psychedelic their whatever their intensity and because they're a psychedelic folk
00:59:44
Speaker
Punk act, right? that Not goth like they had been in Bauhaus. So when they were out there and then they just started, you know, doing it. And I just heard this. And I was like, wait, I that's that 60s. That's that song from Hamburger Hill. And then it just kept going. And then they did it their way. with the, with and it was just so amazing. I was like, that was so cool to hear just this three piece out there just pounding it out on the side of a mountain in 89. That was a really great, like that stood out over so much of that show that, you know, and they were one of my favorite bands back then and then seeing them and then they did that. That was one of the highlights of the night was that one.
01:00:28
Speaker
Yeah, so as soon as we got the call, I'm going to find that somewhere we'm going to look forward on YouTube and see if it's out there or see if anything from that version is out there. I got bootlegs of it. Any any 11 Rockets bootleg from 89 will probably have it. Okay. Well, I would love to hear that version because I try all the time to come up with unique ways to do different covers. In fact, I think, I mean, we're recording a new record right now and somewhere in the middle of this record, I think we're going to sneak off to Joe's and record, you know, a dozen covers and just have them done so that we can release them when we need something. But, you know, ah weird, just weird things. I mean, i and I like weird covers like
01:01:06
Speaker
I used to do a version of like a virgin and um our lips are sealed and you know some we we actually for a while we're doing a really cool version of brutal by Olivia Rodriguez. rodrigo whatever so So you did the Miley Cyrus cover right? Yeah okay I so i was like that's pretty cool okay here here's one for you okay I was at a festival in it was like KCGL's Big Adventure somewhere in Denver. We drove out there again to see Love and Rockets, right? That was them and ah Bang, which was an English beat spinoff we're playing there and Del Sol and you know, Goldfinger and just a bunch of fishbone, you know, like all these and I think it was the samples who I'd seen open for Sting that year too. um But one of these bands, I can't remember who the hell it was.
01:01:59
Speaker
They get up there and they said, all right, everybody, let's lighten it up because you're playing all this heavy, dark stuff. And then out of nowhere, are you a Red Dwarf fan? Do you know Red Dwarf? it's It's a British comedy from the 90s. And they played the theme for Red Dwarf. Oh, wow. out of out it's It's a British sci-fi. And then they're like, it's cold outside. There's no sort of atmosphere. I was like, Like, where'd that come from, a man? Because that was my favorite show, right? That was my favorite show, BritCom, of all time. And then they they did that, and I thought that was so cool. They just did a cover of the theme song for that, and then just went off and did the rest of their set. It'd be as dumb as somebody singing, like, you're there seeing the temptations, and they all of a sudden do the theme song for different strokes, right? It was, like, so weird. It was awesome. So, yeah, I get it. It's funny that you mentioned different strokes because I, when I did do cover music, when I was like, you know, putzing around doing a, like between bands for a while, I was doing like a duo, acoustic guitar and cajons. The guy, Steve, who's our drummer now, and I were playing together. We were doing Flintstones, Spongebob. We would do a really, so the theme from Gilgamesh Island is called the bow of Gilgamesh Island.
01:03:13
Speaker
And if you change all the chords to a minor chord and play it slowly, it's a really sad song. Like, just sit right back and you'll hear it. And so we used to do all those weird songs and, you know, drunks would come up to us and make requests. But we tried to learn um the theme from different strokes. It was hard. It was hard to do with acoustic guitar and and just drum with ah just with the percussion. But um Got a weird chords in that song, but that is, uh, it's funny. You just mentioned that. Cause that's something that I actually spent some time trying to figure out. Well, I think you and I, when we can hit pause and you just talk weird music and yeah and just weird shit in life for, you know, cause I know you can go and listen to that theme for red dwarf and to be like, I got it. And then you'd be hooked on the show. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'll, when we listened back to this, I'll make notes of everything that we talked about and go and search. out I'm, I'm.
01:04:07
Speaker
and curious person. I like to know things. I like to learn things and seek things out. So yes, it's called having ADHD. It's exactly what my my wife is like. Can you just not know? No, I can't. I have to do this. Yeah. um So I saw something the other day about, you know, be having I always say I have an over, my i'm and you know, an overthinker. um my brain i My brain is like watching 12 movies at the same time with full volume and um it's very rare. the The only time really that I can narrow it down to one thing is when I'm working on music. Music to me is like that thing that I can really laser in on and focus on, but everything else is a struggle because someone will be telling me something really important in a business meeting and I'll be hearing circus music or the theme for the banana splits is playing in the back of my mind. as go do do You know know, like in my head, I'm coming along to that. And meanwhile, I'm supposed to be paying attention. And later on, I'm like, holy shit, did I miss anything important? While I was imagining what it would be like to be cast for the fairly ghost friend, like, you know, I just saw weird ass shit that goes on in my brain. So.
01:05:14
Speaker
Yeah, and all of this while you're watching a YouTube video about fixing the crankshaft on your car. you know Yeah, that's all. Yeah, I am. nine There's 90 things going on all the time. And you know, it's really surprising. Like I always like I just want to break. I want my brain to stop torturing me with all those thoughts. When it happens, it makes me really nervous. Like if I focus on one thing and outside of music, if i if I don't have my brains, I'm thinking a million things something's wrong. What's going on? I need all that content and that stimulation. I will. I will listen to headphones, have a TV on while I'm reading a book. So I'm listening to music, I'm watching something and I'm reading a book between I'm just doing, you know, i like my my wife, I'll be like there. Unloading the dishwasher and I'm smiling.
01:06:02
Speaker
She's like, okay, who are you talking to? All right, what conversation are you in? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, you're gonna come from the same cloth, man. I think I just met my twin brother. There's another one of us, by the way. She's a Navy, she's a Petty Officer First Class in the Navy. She lives in New Orleans. She's like all three of us to get like, seriously, she's just like me. She's just, and now you, right? Yeah, you get it. Love it. Yeah, yeah the the unquiet mind is both a blessing and a curse most of the time a blessing and it really helps me to write because and and you know what I write lyrics while I'm listening to other songs. I'm not really it's something it's occupying some subconscious part of my brain like unconscious part of my brain is listening to that and distracted. So I'll you know quickly write some really cool lyrics. But a lot of times I write lyrics while I'm listening to something else.
01:06:58
Speaker
which is Okay, there's there's a guy on your same label, right? and We love your publicist, he's the greatest guy in the world, we know that, right? yeah But he had another guy, and I was talking to his name, it was Frank Meyer. And he's in a band, he's in the Streetwalk and And I was asking about one of his songs, like so this one right here, it was
01:07:23
Speaker
1977, some girls, Rolling Stones, he's like, yes, I was listening to that album a lot when I was writing that, yes, spot on, you nailed that vibe for the sound. I said, yeah, and the lyrics are Spinal Tap. He said, really? No, wait, no, the lyrics were not Spinal Tap. And he goes over in a little bit, he's like, Oh, yes. Yeah, those are. Yes, those are spinal tap. Big bottom lyrics. Yes. I must have listened to that song that week and it somehow worked its way into my into the lyrics for that song. But it but it's crazy because like when we were recording so we went out to San Diego to record the EP with Ed.
01:08:01
Speaker
ah staium and ed ed was great he had great stories i mean none of which i can probably tell you on recording um i would just have to be there right yeah or are we got to get drinks and then you know i would tell you but um I was listening to a very unexpected song that I was like I love a well-written song that has hooks and And you know it's something poppy about it and I was listening to that's just what you are by Amy man over and over and I and you know like at the end of the year you get that thing from Spotify or whatever that tells you how many times I think I listened to that song like 8000 times, but at ads between takes, you know, he lives in a very nice house and a very nice part of the world and
01:08:40
Speaker
Then there's like a pool area and I was outside by the pool between takes or when the other guitar players were doing their bits or whatever. And I listened to that song on repeat over and over and over. And then we went in and did, you know, Outside and Crash and some of those other songs that are nothing like that. But it just for whatever reason, I i found that song comforting and I was fascinated by. you know, the pop part of it, like how the the structure construction of the song and the melodies and the lyrics and very smart song. I don't know if you know familiar with that song, but it's a it's very poppy acoustic jangly song. But yeah just love it. Amy man saved my life. Oh, really? Yeah. Like a swimming thing or no, no, no. um Magnolia. Oh, that is yeah enough said, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in a very religious experience.
01:09:28
Speaker
and trying to deal with the religious trauma, the abuse, yeah all of that came down to what happened in Magnolia, right? If if you saw Magnolia, right? yeah And and you you saw all the, well, it it it kind of might as well, but your song, Crash, um
01:09:55
Speaker
much too fast. For it to last late at night, I'm feeling good, wondering if I should hold my breath and jump in and realize I can't swim too late. It's a similar, the too late theme in there. But one of the things I thought was interesting is, um yeah, you're you're willing to admit in, in Crash that yeah this wasn't right from the beginning and I was wise enough to acknowledge that, right? um Crash was, you weren't saying it's not my fault, but there's some serious honesty in that. Like you're you're ready to you're ready to say, I'll strip down to my boxer shorts here for everybody to see what I'm about, right?
01:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, I um ah used to be very nervous about being too personal in songs. And I would always write a personal song and then I would go back and fudge it a little bit, like somehow dilute the personal part of it so that it wasn't as identifiable. um And then, you know, it sort of as I got older and things changed in my life, I was like, the fuck do I care about anybody thinks? So I'm writing these songs for myself anyway, so fuck it. and um crashes about like so you know i'm friends with matt pinfield and and matt you know went through some substance abuse stuff and we were out one night and everybody was drinking and except matt and i was like wow that might hit his business it must be really hard everybody drinks everybody's you know some drugs around always and i thought to myself i wonder how matt does it and then
01:11:38
Speaker
I took that feeling and started to work on Crash and thinking about like, you know, when you're in over your head and you know, you're doing the wrong thing and you know, it's going to come back to bite you and you know, you're headed nowhere, nowhere good, but you're still going to kind of do it. It's, you know, like addiction and and compulsion. And I just tried to put it in a, in a visual way. Actually, we're almost done. We're almost done with the video. And that's pretty funny and pretty good. Actually, a lot of ah bumper car crash scenes and matchbox cars crash because that song was very I'm ready to you know, I will not accept the blame. I'm just ready to say I was wrong. I knew I was wrong. And I'm i'm going to acknowledge all that. I knew I was wrong getting into this one.
01:12:27
Speaker
Yeah. um so And too late is the same theme. Like, ah like I knew this was going to be bad. i i just wanted I just wanted to believe that it was okay, but it wasn't. Yeah, there there were some yeah some of too late was in there, too. yeah Well, at the end of Crash, I used the word, it's too late at the very last line. and ah you know it's ah It's a very similar theme. In fact, the whole outside album is You know, the the EP is all about, you know, not fitting in ah and, you know, just being an outsider, making mistakes and, you know, trying to your best to keep it all together and and and and function. But, you know, I struggle with pretty much every second of every day.
Authenticity, Façades, and Religion
01:13:09
Speaker
Well, so your song disguise. Uh-huh.
01:13:13
Speaker
was, yeah and we needed to talk about Crash before I move on to Disguise because it kind of plays into that along with the whole Amy Mann and Magnolia thing, right? um The notes in here said that you invite the listeners to reflect on the authenticity of those around them and consider the consequences of relying on a facade for fleeting admiration. yep And you know as well as I do, the really successful person, The larger than life persona is a facade. And it's basically, I don't care if it's a motivational speaker, a politician or a religious leader, right? Tony Robbins might mean well, he might be the great, I'm not trashing on Tony Robbins, but he's- He has great hair.
01:14:05
Speaker
and teeth. Oh, yeah, that's right. And, but don call him but, and I'm not trashing on him, but there's a larger than life persona that they are always trying to use that to get you to do what they want you to. Yeah. Right. And I had a lot of this ah Again, being raised Mormon and all of that, I grew up around a lot of this to see you have these larger than life religious people, very charismatic.
01:14:40
Speaker
yeah And you know the the the founder of the Mormon Church, Genghis Kahneman, man, this guy, Trump could have taken lessons from this guy on being a Kahneman. you know, and I would, you know, but we get duped because we love that so much about, oh, they make me feel so good. I'll do whatever the hell this guy wants, right? And you get that, that they're larger than life, their their facade is so huge. And you find out they're just hiding who they really are. but and And in Magnolia, you see so much, here's the abuse that these kids are being put at, put through at the hands of
01:15:19
Speaker
the religion. what what what they're you know so Magnolia was powerful, beautiful. and i have to go back and I have to go back and watch it. I haven't seen it in a long time. i i Not so much religion for me, but I did grow up in a really abusive environment. and You know, my dad, for better or for worse, I mean, like I mentioned, he had passed during COVID and we had a very complex relationship. There was a lot of physical and emotional abuse. I was really smart as a child and my dad had some learning disability. And as a result of the learning disability, he had a lot of issues with me ah being smart and would frequently beat me if I said something too smart, which is crazy. Well, so did you, so, all right. Yeah, you do need to go watch.
01:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't seen in a long time. ah Yeah. Yeah. So like me, I, I, I didn't talk to my dad for the last three years of his life. And I was able to watch Magnolia kind of come to terms with some of all of that as well. But, but yeah, the point of Magnolia is, you know, The Antichrist is not made evil are is not born evil. He is made evil by the abuse that everyone puts him through. The Wunderkind. And they talk about that. So when you watch that, great. you know you'll you'll You'll get what what I'm talking about there. But yeah, Amy Mann with what she did in that film just saved my life. I i i will bow down and tap my forehead to her feet in sheer worship.
01:16:40
Speaker
um Um, interesting. My, um, my wife's going to be very disappointed that all the plans that we have for today and tomorrow are going to be, um, forced all by going to watch all these things, listen, and all these things. Magnolia and red, I'm going to blame you. I hope that's okay. Um, but like, okay. So what, what are the jokes was cause these people, they're.
01:17:02
Speaker
they they have their facade and then you realize no they're just sleepy sly they're they're sleazy people they're not having affairs molesting kids you know whatever it's all out there but it even at the surface level you have the healing preacher and then you realize he's got a toupee and he wears contact lenses, right? You know, if he's healing cancer, why can't he put hair on his head? If he's, you know, and and so I, that was what this guy's got me. I had such a great just like, oh wow. It all just came around to that. You know, we, we have these people and these ideas that we just get wrapped up in of what we love about somebody and
01:17:44
Speaker
Really? Nah, it's not really. you know if If they're up there catching our interest in something, they're probably trying to get us to do something. you know Yeah, that's absolutely true. um i would um I so the song itself is about um the imposter syndrome, but also it's on the face value. It's about that disguise thing. It really is ah about that. There's no pure. There's no one who's perfect and pure and there's no situation that's perfect and pure that there's always. um
01:18:17
Speaker
some element of decay or something fake inside of almost everything. um You know, like everybody, you know, like you think about the music business and you know, you think about when the Beatles first started, one of the things that helped make them was that Brian Epstein owned a record store and they bought, he bought, you know, thousands of copies of the record so that let me do with chart. And that's kind of fake. But at the same time, they were the Beatles. Maybe if you hadn't done that, we wouldn't have had all the other great things that they gave us. So, you know, like it's, there's a phoniness to things and nothing's ever as it appears. And the whole concept of disguise is what goes up will eventually come down. The Roman Empire, you know, the greatest, the seven wonders of the world, you know, eventually how many, of you know, most of them fall apart or are gone.
01:19:01
Speaker
And to me, it's people hiding the darkness in themselves by portraying a false light. And and I realized after I wrote it, i you know, like I thought it was really just about, you know, like politicians and leaders. And then I realized it was also a little bit about myself because, you know, there's an element of, you know, like there's a disguise that I wear during the day to sort of hide who I am in my mind. um you know there's a I would say it's a corporate disguise, if you will. And um you know who I really am and who I smile and pretend to be at work is a little different. There's a little bit of that imposter syndrome happening. And so I guess I tapped into those feelings. um But originally, it was about you know me watching somebody else that I had seen and knew how fake everything they that they were saying was. And I really tried to capture that. But again, I always go back and look at them later and you know try to think, is there some hidden thing here?
01:19:57
Speaker
And in that case of that song, I realized, holy shit, that's actually a little bit about me. Wow. Again, while you're opening it up, I mean, you're being incredibly honest. Yeah. Well, one to to look at is, um uh paranoid eyes by uh Roger Waters by Pink Floyd off the final cut yeah it's about the it's about the veteran who has PTSD who comes home and wants to pretend that it's okay yeah yeah and it's not you know yeah and you see just the sheer terror this guy's going through just because he has to pretend yeah I um Johnny and I wrote that song together um you know I write all the lyrics and some of the melody on that and you know
01:20:48
Speaker
I really, the I like that, it almost, there's almost to me like a little bit of a ah sideshow element to it, like a bait and switch element to it that I was thinking of in my mind. And musically, it sort of does that. but um I really, I really have grown to love that song a lot. I had, we mentioned clowns earlier. And so remember I mentioned before we started
Influence of The Dickies and Religion Critique
01:21:10
Speaker
to record. Please tell me you're a Dickies fan, by the way, killer. Oh, I love the Dickies. I've seen that. So that is where my love of Crazy Covers comes from. Because if you remember, they did a ton of crazy covers. They did Night's Annoying Satin. It was classic. They did that. They did, I mean, and the dam did help, which is very weird version of help.
01:21:30
Speaker
Those covers from the Dickies and the Damned, those couple, um and the Dickies also did the Banana Splits theme, which I always, we soundcheck with it sometimes. um And they also did um a couple of other ones. I'm drawing a total blank right now, but um I love the Dickies, but the clown thing, I mentioned that Joe had, you know, the shell clown thing, and then I hid shell clowns around his house to freak him out. But I ended up building in my house a um it ah circus tent. I bought this red and white striped plastic.
01:22:04
Speaker
And I built like a scale circus tent and put these shell clowns on a stage, glued instruments to them, and shot a video of all of that. And that was originally going to be the video for Disguise, but we ended up you know thinking about something different and working on something that won't be released for a while. But ah the original video was shell clowns pretending to be a band. A band. Yeah. So just on the subject of clowns this morning, ah huh and I'm in an ex-Mormon group on Facebook and there's a meme of somebody tying ah clowns, Ronald McDonald pants, tying the big clown shoes on. And I said, you know, before you judge a Christian, walk a mile in their shoes.
01:22:50
Speaker
And I wrote, I just said before you judge a Mormon apologist, walk a mile in their shoes because I looked at anyway, just, just throwing my own religion aspect into it and how these guys will make such fools of themselves trying to get you to continue believing something that's so, you know. So when I was a kid, my my dad was always like some schemy guy. Like always, like one time we had, you know, he wanted to, Snoopy was a big cartoon when I was a kid. And so he thought, also I'll raise and breed beagles and seldom.
01:23:23
Speaker
Well, beagles breed pretty quick. And I think like before we knew we had 40 beagles in our backyard. And I mean, I grew up, there was like space money. We had farm with chickens and sheep and stuff. But 40 beagles is a lot of that's a lot of work. It's a lot of smell and it's a lot of braying that that noise and all that. So. ah He had a lot of harebrained schemes, but he rented our driveway to a guy who put a trailer, a big like mobile home trailer in there on wheels. so And my dad then subsequently rented that out to nuns from our church. I was raised Episcopalian, so the nuns would stay there.
01:23:57
Speaker
in the summers and so I was an inquisitive kid and we went out there and you know they were this first year that they came they were like preaching to me constantly constantly about all the things I was doing wrong and all these things and how I should read the Bible so they left in the summer the end of the summer and I read the Bible over the winter and when they came back the next year I had a whole bunch of questions for them Like it says, dash your kids against the rocks. Is that literal? What does that mean? And then they, you know, they started answering. it I had so many questions. After a all, they're like, listen, we want to play Rummy 500. Stop asking these questions. And that was the last year they ever came and rinsed it. My dad's like, what did you say to them? I'm like, I don't know.
01:24:35
Speaker
But um that and there was another experience where my dad at one point in time had gone to to Florida to work and then didn't look like he was going to come back. And the priest from our church came to the house and my mother, we we weren't getting any money, my mother had sold like most of our furniture. And we were living on potato soup and by potato soup, I mean my mother would boil a potato or two in the water and then slice them. We put salt and pepper in there and that's what we would all eat. And there was four kids and it was really sad and, you know, poor times.
01:25:07
Speaker
And the priest came to the house and said to my mom, I know you can't make it to church, but could you please send the collection in because we really need that? And as like a 14 year old, 13, 14 year old kid, I was like, get the fuck out of here. We got nothing. My mother's crying because we have nothing. And you're here trying to guilt us into giving you money. Beat it. And I'm not a big fan of organized religion, so I empathize with with your ex-Mormon group. um I have some spiritual beliefs that have nothing to do with a bunch of people deciding what it should be. I kind of feel what I feel. yeah i like i my favorite My religion is similar to what Abraham Lincoln said. Abraham Lincoln, when he was running for president,
01:25:45
Speaker
They kept asking him about his religion. And he thought that was personal, and I didn't have any bearing on what kind of president he would be. But eventually, he had to answer the question. And he said, you want to know what my religion is? When I do good, I feel good. And when I do bad, I feel bad. That is my religion. And to me, that encapsulates the human condition, the thing that you should strive for in a nutshell. um I mean, everybody's definition of good and bad is is different. So i mean I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer might have had a different one than I do. um But to me, when I do good, I feel good. And and when I do bad, I feel bad. It's really the the key to trying to be the best person you can be to live your life with integrity.
01:26:22
Speaker
um And to try to just, you always deserve your best effort, regardless of anything else, you always deserve your best. And that's how I try to live. It doesn't always work out that way, but um that was my takeaway from all those years of like reading, I read the Quran, I read the Bible, I read everything I could get my hands on to try and figure out like, what is it? why Why does everybody say that this is how you have to live? Or these are the rules? Or like, what is this about religion? Which is true. And my takeaway was, you know, just try to be the best you. Well, um I went to Harvard Divinity School. Oh, wow. Yeah. I should have asked that before I started that' about spouting off on half-assed ideas. But when everyone says, well, what do you glean from the Bible? Because everyone's like, but you don't you believe anymore? Well, you know what about the Bible? What about the Bible? I'm like, well, OK. Let me tell you what I gleaned from the Bible. Here is the New Testament. And when I was interviewing with the guys in Gacy DC, they're also on your roster. They're great guys, right? and So like here it is, man.
01:27:20
Speaker
um Here's the message of Jesus, right? Number one, the parable of the Good Samaritan. Perfect moral philosophy, no one can say there was anything wrong about that idea. Everyone's like, right, yeah, okay, right, win, total win there. Number two, thou shalt not be a dick. yeah I don't remember that exact parable, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The beatitudes, they'll shall not be a dick, right? And so, um, and the guy in gay CD, she was like, they'll shall not be a dick. I'm printing t-shirts, you know? Yeah. But, um, so we are coming up on time here. What song do you want us, want me to play us out
Reflections and Conclusion
01:28:00
Speaker
with? And you you and I are going to have way like many conversations in the future. I already know that, but what do you want me to play this episode out with? Um,
01:28:10
Speaker
I guess I would say I would play um outside just because all of everything we talked about about us. Well, I was going to open with outside. Oh, OK. So I mean, I can play on the clothes. I'm not sure. I don't know. um You know, um because we both what we both agree on outside. It's a fantastic song. yeah But ah Okay, Girl From Outer Space was a lot of fun. ah Close Your Eyes, right? I don't know, why what do you want me to play? They're all really good, so. um now Now's a great song that i that I like, and we still play now in the set, and we played a little different. It was really dramatic last night, so now' ah now's a good song. ok
01:28:53
Speaker
All right, so all right, everybody, I'm playing us out with now, quote close your eyes, and or now in parentheses, close your eyes. And man, Tom, this has been a fantastic conversation, Jesus. Yeah, me too. Technical issues aside, we really, like, we went all over the place, but it's ADHD, so we're sharing the same brain there. um All right, so everybody, thank you for tuning in. Take care, be good to each other, and let music do awesome in your lives. And thank you so much, Tom Kanak, for your time and the fun conversation. Just so everybody knows, it went on for quite a while after we hit pause on the recording. I hope you all enjoyed this episode. This is now. Close your eyes. And I hope you all have a gnarly, wonderful week, everybody. Enjoy.
01:30:32
Speaker
That your love is all that's left Your love is all I have Your love is all I want and all I need now that we find That everything I like is fighting to survive Memories of all that was all fading for me now
01:31:06
Speaker
Now that we've been struck down How did we get from where we were to where we are? Now that everything is unraveling Let us swear with all our might We will stand here through the night as things are changing fast Let's make the stackers last And I know that if you die I will be there when you close your eyes Now,
01:31:55
Speaker
how do we know what's real? And how did we end up here?
01:32:28
Speaker
Keeps on unraveling And I swear, with all of our heart That we will make it through the cycle Things are changing fast We gotta make our seconds last And I bow, but when you die
01:33:32
Speaker
Now, on the very edge of time As we're waiting for us I'll just hold on until the end As things decay and we descend Now As the end is creeping near Great ball you are here I've got a place in all that will Be out there for us waiting still All that's left is now
01:34:10
Speaker
Keep your vow, forgive me