Transcript
Luisa Hogan: You don't lose yourself overnight when you become a leader. You lose the version of you that used to know exactly where you stood. And no one tells you what replaces it. What if the real challenge isn't leading others but we're not recognizing yourself in the process of being thrown into a leadership role?
Luisa Hogan: Welcome back to the Second Voice Podcast where we uncover the conversations that leaders don't have out loud. I'm Louisa Hogan and today we're diving into the identity shift that happens when you move from doing the work to leading people and why that transition quietly unravels more than just your role. My guest today went through something very similar and she does amazing work and her name is Alicia Riouge and she is a former co-founder and COO, ICF certified coach,
Luisa Hogan: and author of Lead with Clarity, How New Managers Turn Confusion into Confident Leadership. She helps new managers, founders, and executive teams fix the clarity gaps that quietly undermine performance during growth.
Luisa Hogan: And she believes that leaders don't fail from a lack of talent, they fail from a lack of clarity clarity around identity, purpose, and execution. And today I'm hoping that she's going to share exactly how clarity becomes the operating system of leadership and also her story of how she learned those lessons the hard way. Welcome, Alicia. I am so happy to have you here as part of this podcast.
Alicia Rius: Hi Luisa, thank you so much for having me today.
Luisa Hogan: So,
Luisa Hogan: Oh, what a pleasure to have you. I'm i'm really grateful. So I've read your but bio, but I always like to go in a little bit more detail at the start of these podcasts. Tell us a little bit more about you and your journey. What was your leadership journey? How did it begin? And how did you get to where you are now?
Alicia Rius: So my career hasn't moved in a very straight line. I started in advertising as a project manager in advertising agencies in Barcelona, London, then Amsterdam. Then I moved to San Francisco where i built an international photography business. And then in l LA, I co-founded a music tech startup.
Alicia Rius: So the thing is, there were like three different industries, two continents, but there was one thing that I kept seeing and I couldn't unsee. So every company that I walk into, including the one that I helped build,
Alicia Rius: was full of capable people who just been promoted, but somehow they quietly fell apart. And it's not because they weren't talented. In fact, they were brilliant people. But the job changed and nobody tell them hows. And I leave that as a COO. And then I watch it it happen around me.
Alicia Rius: And that's what made me a coach. So today i work with first-time managers and founders, building that first leadership layer, um which is the woman that the gap appears in the clarity gap because the growth outpaces the leadership.
Alicia Rius: And then the book, Live With Clarity, just came out and it's that playbook for that very moment, hoping that they will help all the people to going through that
Luisa Hogan: amazing. That's such good work because it's so true. I work with leaders too. And, you know, I find sometimes that people get promoted into leadership roles because they're technically brilliant and they are very good at what they do. But then it takes this whole other level of knowing and doing. That's different to, you know, on the ground doing what they used to do. And nothing quite prepares you because having the technical skills doesn't prepare you for a different set of technical skills in leadership, right? It just changes completely.
Alicia Rius: It changes completely. As I said, career change and nobody warns them about that.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, this is this is a podcast about self-talk. Yeah. What was the internal mechanism inside you? What changed internally for you? What was the self-talk that you were going through in that time when you transitioned, where you started recognizing and learning all of this about leadership?
Alicia Rius: The voice was very critique, it was very judgmental. And I had the same phrase that I hear from others, which is, I feel like a fraud. Am I cut out for these?
Alicia Rius: Will people know that I have no idea what I'm doing? Because the truth is that when you are doing the work and then you start your own company, and that was my case, I've never built a startup before. So I had to learn things on the go.
Alicia Rius: And while you're learning things, you realize how little you know. in fact, you know almost nothing about how to build a company, how to make it grow. So it is about doing a learning and pretending and the quote, fake it until you make it. Then I understood why it exists because there is a lot of power of I need to pretend I know the things so people doesn't realize i have no clue about what I'm doing. And that is very hard because you have to reconcile these two worlds where you know you don't know anything. um And at the same time, having the pressure from outside and from the inside saying, you have to keep up, you have to catch up, you have to learn, you don't know anything. Come on, why are you doing this?
Alicia Rius: And that's very stressful. And it really, it takes a toll on
Luisa Hogan: does. That's, it's so much of the work that I do. I work with leaders in building steady leadership. And I find that what you're describing is exactly what so many go through. It's like, I have to pretend like I know everything. There is that thing of fake it till you make it.
Luisa Hogan: And, you know, they have to pretend they're tough, they have to pretend they're strong, and it burns you out, right? Like you get onto this treadmill of working so hard to show everybody that you are capable and managing it all, that you're on this path to burnout, right? So what shifted in you? What what what did you change?
Alicia Rius: I think it was about accepting my own limitations and have clarity about the things that I don't know and the things I needed to accomplish.
Alicia Rius: Because once you know your destination, it is easier to understand where you are, where you need to go, and then that creates a straight line. So that creates, it's giving you a path and you have to figure out what's the next step after the next and after the next.
Alicia Rius: And that helps because it removes a lot of the noise. And that was part of the process. I went through many processes, but that was for me the the the one that helped me the most.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Alicia Rius: And then once I understood where I was going and all my gaps, I started to bring that clarity about, okay, what do I need to do next? That's going to get me closer to where I need to go.
Alicia Rius: and I focused on that and I forgot about the
Luisa Hogan: I imagine that's what your book talks about, because you talk about clarity and leadership. Tell us more about the book and, and you know, what you mean by clarity and leadership, because it it sounds really simple. And I like how you describe it as knowing what the next step is. But tell me more about what you mean and and what you've covered in your book.
Alicia Rius: As I said in the beginning, my thesis is that leadership doesn't fail because of lack of talent. It fails because the lack of clarity. When you step into leadership, the main thing that you need to do is make the invisible visible.
Alicia Rius: And I say that because when you are a manager, you work with things that are tangible. You manage tasks, you manage people. But leadership is a mindset, is a way of being, it's a way of showing up for yourself and for the people around you.
Alicia Rius: That is something that doesn't show right away. It is something that you need to build with time. And making the invisible visible means, for example, how you translate strategy or a vision into something that is tangible.
Alicia Rius: That person that owns a leadership framework I don't want to say role because in the book I explained that leadership is a choice. It's not a title. So that person needs to be a translator of the abstract thing and it has to make it something that's grounded and understandable for everybody.
Alicia Rius: And that's why I say clarity is the foundation of like effective leadership and how it's the foundation for companies to grow.
Alicia Rius: Unless that you bring clarity about, okay, We need to go there. That's our vision. Okay, what does that mean? How does that look like on our daily basis in terms of tasks, the ways that we work? So you need to be very specific and put that into words that everybody understands and everybody has to speak the same language. So leadership in that case, it has, you know, bring clarity about where we're going to where we are now.
Alicia Rius: And that's a lot of responsibility too um create that bridge. So for people to understand and see what others see.
Luisa Hogan: I love that. It's so true. like Leadership is not a role, but a choice. And you know ah to me, that sounds like you know, it's not a skill gap necessarily, but an identity shift, right?
Luisa Hogan: So how can, how can leaders move along in that identity shift?
Alicia Rius: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: How can they, how can that, you know, because most people go, okay, I'm in leadership role now. i've got to do leadership courses. I've got to get all the credentials, but actually it's that, you know, it's that identity shift. What can they do to, to move themselves along in that identity shift?
Alicia Rius: The first one is to recognize where you're at at this moment. Going back to the book, I think the key part is that it starts at chapter zero.
Alicia Rius: So by that I mean that many books explain what you need to do as a manager, as a leader. And I go be before that. It is who you need to be in order to lead. That is tattoo identity.
Alicia Rius: Because the person that has just been promoted has to stop doing the very thing that got them there. And that is very counterproductive. And you're asking somebody somebody that has been doing the same thing for years, becoming excellent at that, and now then i they need to lead other people doing that type of work.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Alicia Rius: So they have to stop doing that thing, which identity is tied to that. We build our identity from repetition. So when you strip that from that person, they lost their identity. There is an identity grief that makes them feel very disorienting about that new role.
Alicia Rius: So the first step is to build that identity with intention. And by that, I mean, you need to sit down and map out who you were, you need to be, and who you are, sorry, where you are now, where you need to become, and where you're not right now. So there's a lot of recalibration and that means what are the assets that you have right now that can help you?
Alicia Rius: Like strengths, values, skills. What are the things that you think this job requires from you? And then mapping out what's missing and what things do you need to unlearn as well so you can build that identity fast and start operating from that clarity.
Alicia Rius: That's why I'm saying that you need to build that identity because if you let it happen by accident, you will you will lose control about who you are now. So you need to take the bull by its horns and sit down and map it out.
Luisa Hogan: Excellent. Yeah. I mean, because otherwise there's that internal confusion, right? That there's that confusion and that generates more negative self-talk around, you know, your identity. How how does that confusion show up externally in terms of decision? How do people make decisions and people's teams and their confidence when there's that internal confusion and lack of clarity? What, what, what symptoms did you see or have you seen in the work that you're doing?
Alicia Rius: The first thing that you see is incoherence in how things are getting done. So, for example, ah a new manager that has been recently promoted it's still very attached to doing the work.
Alicia Rius: He hasn't have enough clarity about that leadership role. So that person one day will be delegating and and the day after will be micromanaging and one day will try to self help solve a conflict, but another day will they will avoid the problem. So there is a lot of back and forth between doing and leading.
Alicia Rius: So that person it stays in a stage of confusion because they are trying to fulfill both roles, but none of them are getting the best of that person. And when that person operates from confusion, that confusion ripples across the system.
Alicia Rius: And it's very easy to detect that because the team, what they will see is somebody who is not coherent with their you know with their behavior. And when you see a leader that is doing one thing and day day after day, doing another thing, that creates a lot of uncertainty.
Alicia Rius: And with uncertainty comes not feeling psychological safety around that person because you don't know what's going to happen that day. So that's why it's important to you know start with yourself, get clarity on that because that will you will communicate clarity and the teams will also feel that clarity and they will feel very grounded because they know where they're going because the person that's leading them feels confident.
Luisa Hogan: say and And how, like, I mean, I know... ah Previously, I've been ceo in organization, COO too, and, you know, recognize these um characteristics, maybe in a leader that I've promoted into a leadership role from a technical role.
Luisa Hogan: What can leaders who are experienced do to support leaders that they have just promoted in the lead up to promoting them? after they've promoted them, how how can you support, if you are listening to this podcast now and you're like, I have somebody on my team is doing this, how can how can they support those team members?
Alicia Rius: The first thing would be having ah conversation about clarity in what's expected from them in this next step in their careers. It's very clear that as a doer, you've been doing your own thing.
Alicia Rius: Everybody can see that. Organizations and supervisors or other managers, the first thing that they need to understand is that when you promote somebody from a technical role to a leadership role, they are changing careers.
Alicia Rius: And with that, they need yeah, skills, mindset, but also the identity. So the first conversation that anyone can have is about understanding what leadership, good leadership looks like for them.
Alicia Rius: and it's about having that conversation about what do I expect from you? And even the person that's being promoted also seek clarity and ask a lot of questions.
Alicia Rius: But if there is not, without that conversation, what happens is that people assume that because that person is very good doing one thing they will very they they will be very good at leading others doing that thing. And when you don't have clarity, assumptions and guessing fills the gap and that's where you start with the wrong foot.
Alicia Rius: So have the conversation.
Luisa Hogan: Excellent advice. So coming back to you, I'm i'm fascinated by your story. you know, go from advertising, then you go into, you know, startup and you're founding businesses.
Luisa Hogan: What were some of the things of your old identity that you had to let go of so that you could grow into your next level or into the career that you have forged for yourself? You know, what what have you had to let go of?
Alicia Rius: Control.
Alicia Rius: Control, because I'm a person that really likes control because it gives me peace of mind. And I have a part of me that is very obsessive with details. And when you start leading orders, you can't control everything. The higher up you go into the leadership ladder, the farther away you go from the operational layer. So you start losing visibility about the little things.
Alicia Rius: That's why it's so important. I would say don't delegate tasks, delegate outcomes. For me, having to let go of that control and having to start trusting people that they can do the same work that I was doing even better or different, but with the similar outcome that was good enough and understanding that I can clone myself and I'm not perfect. I'm not the best.
Alicia Rius: I like the way I do certain things. But I had to understand that if I want to scale a business, I need to build a leadership layer that has you know lots of clarity about how things need to be done, where are we going, and then give them the how is what they own. I dictate the what, the how belongs to them, and I have to be at peace with that.
Alicia Rius: And it
Luisa Hogan: it's it's so funny how you you go on this journey when you go into leadership roles. I went through something very similar and it's funny, you either learn that lesson or you don't.
Luisa Hogan: And if you don't, it's going to make your executive or so you know leadership journey very, very difficult. So very difficult.
Alicia Rius: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: And you know i i love conversations like this because for people are listening who are aspiring to be CEOs and founders, This is the truth and the reality of it, right? Like you think that the higher up you go the more power and control you're going to have.
Luisa Hogan: It's not, does not look like what you think. It doesn't look like what you've imagined. It looks completely different. And it's exactly what Alicia is saying. You know, it's like, it's, you have to let go of that control.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Alicia Rius: Yes, that's the only way. Otherwise, you become the mo the
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. I mean, for somebody who's maybe in that in-between space right now, the in-between space where they're aspiring to be a leader and they're not quite there yet, um but they don't feel like, you know, they don't trust who they're becoming yet.
Luisa Hogan: um And I know that you've given such amazing tips already, but if somebody is not trusting who they're becoming or who they need to be, You know, what's what's the number one thing that you feel like people really need to understand if they're in that in-between space right now and aspiring to be a leader?
Alicia Rius: That feeling uncomfortable, it's the right feeling at that stage. That ah it's okay to feel that you are in a limbo. Because that brings a lot of self-awareness and that makes you somebody who understands the reality of that change.
Alicia Rius: And being uncomfortable, it's a good sign. It's giving you information about what's happening to you and to your career, which is you are changing skins. You have a growthy old skin and you have to create a new one, which you don't know yet how it's going to look like. And you have a power of control by building your own identity with intention and seeking clarity from the people around you.
Alicia Rius: But there are other ways information that you will, it's going to take time for you to get. And that's fine. That's why leadership is a journey. You get promoted overnight, but the transition doesn't happen overnight. So don't expect to have all those answers. If you feel uncomfortable, you feel lost. If you have imposter syndrome, it means that you are in the right place and it's okay.
Alicia Rius: Use
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. It's so true. and And while you're talking, I was imagining, you know, becoming a leader is like shedding, you said shedding a skin, a new skin.
Luisa Hogan: I'm imagining this beautiful snake and how you shed your old skin and now you're this beautiful, shiny new snake. But it takes a lot of time and it can be a very time consuming and painful process, but it's it's worth it in the end.
Alicia Rius: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: and And I love too that you talk about imposter syndrome because, you know, one of my previous guests said imposter syndrome is actually proof that you've outgrown your old identity, you know, and when you see it like that, imposter syndrome becomes something completely different.
Luisa Hogan: I love that. That really stuck with me in a, in a previous episode.
Alicia Rius: Yeah, when when I do coaching, I work a lot with a model which is about we don't have bad parts and all the parts, even post-syndrome, they have a positive intention. And it's exactly what your former guests say.
Alicia Rius: That is the beauty of it. If you have that information, I mean, when you hear a voice, it's giving you information. Maybe the how it's delivered it can bother you, but take that and try to understand what it's trying to tell you, because normally they have a good intention and that's something that will play in your
Luisa Hogan: and I always say that the self-talk that you have is really there to protect you. It's like your brain doing something that is thousands of years old and it's there to protect you and like you want to be safe, but you can override that. And that's what the second voice is all about. It's about finding the the second voice that tells you that actually you're okay and that you're safe because the first voice is trying to keep you safe and you don't have to listen to it all the time, right?
Alicia Rius: It's exactly like
Luisa Hogan: Well, look, where can people find you? If they want to work with you, if they want to buy your book, where can we find you? Where can we contact you?
Alicia Rius: So if they want to learn more about the the book, which I think it will be an amazing tool for that transition, they can find it on Amazon, Lead with Clarity. Also, they can find it in my website at hiveteamcoaching.com book.
Alicia Rius: But if you're listening, if you're a founder, you're going to through that transition, you are feeling lost, let's have a talk. And people can book ah a free discovery call with me at canonly.com slash Alicia Rios Discovery.
Alicia Rius: I'll trust Luisa. You will put that on the information, but also they can find everything on the website. Yes.
Luisa Hogan: I will. I'll put it all in the show notes for you.
Luisa Hogan: Excellent. I'll put that all in the show notes. I'll make sure that everyone gets um gets the information that they need. And I'm sure that people will be very interested in your book. I love your work.
Luisa Hogan: I'm so glad that you came and talked to us today. I could talk to you so much more because I think the work that you're doing is so important and people don't talk about it. you you're the first person I've come across that talks about this leadership transition and the the identity loss that comes with that and how it it it feels like a huge loss. And I love the work that you're doing. So thank you for joining me today.
Alicia Rius: Thanks for inviting
Luisa Hogan: very welcome. And to everybody listening, the moment you feel like you're losing yourself in leadership might actually be the moment that you're being asked to redefine who you are within it. It's not a loss and it doesn't have to be a loss. You can find your way back. It's time to shed your skin. That's what I've taken from today's episode.
Luisa Hogan: Thank you so much for joining us today. Until next time on the Second Voice Podcast, take care.
