Transcript
Luisa Hogan: Failure isn't what breaks most leaders. It's what happens afterwards. The part where your mind won't let it go The real challenge isn't the mistake in leadership. It's the voice that keeps replaying it.
Luisa Hogan: Welcome back to the Second Voice Podcast, where we uncover the conversations that leaders don't have out loud. I'm your host, Louisa Hogan, and today we're exploring what happens after failure, when the moment is over, but the internal dialogue is just getting started.
Luisa Hogan: My guest today is Dr. Daniel Eiferman, and he is a trauma surgeon, educator, and healthcare leader who has spent his career operating at the intersection of high-stakes medicine and human resilience. In his new book, Cut Open, A Surgeon's Stories of Loss, Resilience and Growth, he pulls back the curtain on the emotional realities of surgical practice, from complications and difficult decisions to the leadership and mindset required to keep moving forward. Drawing on decades in the operating room and academic medicine, Dr. Eiferman offers rare insight into how clinicians process failure
Luisa Hogan: rebuild confidence and support one another in one of the most demanding professions in the world. And Daniel, I am so excited to have you joining me here today. You're 12 hours behind me exactly, so I'm so glad that we got a time that worked for us.
Luisa Hogan: So welcome to the podcast today.
Danny: Thank you so much for having me.
Luisa Hogan: Excellent. Well, I've given a little bit of a bio, but I always like to go a little bit deeper than the bio. Tell us a little bit about more about you and what got you onto your journey where you are today and and what you're doing with yourself today.
Danny: So I am, as you said, I'm what's known in the U.S. as an acute care surgeon, which means the majority of my practice is people that otherwise weren't planning on coming to the hospital today. Now, whether that be you got appendicitis, you got a bowel obstruction, you've gotten to a car accident.
Danny: ah That's what my specialty does as well as surgical critical care. So for when people go to the intensive care unit afterwards, that's kind of my professional ah titles, but I'm also a husband, a dad, a big sports fan.
Danny: and ah what you call now a newly minted author is my new thing that I am ah
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Danny: ah proud to say that I am. And then, um as you mentioned, also ah do some teaching, teach some leadership classes, team building, things like that. So that's kind of a little bit more of my background.
Luisa Hogan: Amazing. Well, I love the title of your book, which is why I was so attracted to having you on this podcast today, because I'm so interested in exploring what you have found, not only in your journey, but in those around you, the doctors around you, those people, you know, in your clinical setting, what is that the voice and the resilience and the the things that goes on inside of them that you have found that is part of your book? Tell us more about your book and and what drove you to write it.
Danny: So believe it or not, the book, the first notes for the book were from about 20 years ago. ah And I actually just reread them the other day and they are horrible. I would not read a book that was written by that, but I i had the idea that the lessons learned from medicine surgery were universal, ah but that the the hook was of surgery, the, sometimes the drama that comes with it can draw people in.
Danny: Then the book went on hold for a long time. And then, ah the introduction of the book tells the, tells the story of the worst complication I've ever had in my career.
Danny: That's coming up on its 10 year anniversary, actually in September of this year.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danny: and that was pretty devastating, uh, to me. and I realized that I had spent, you know, depending, i I don't know how you guys do it in Australia, but here in the States, it was four years college, four years medical school. Then I did five years of surgical training. Then I did a fellowship. I also had a research in there. So throw in there, it's over a decade plus of training.
Danny: I had this awful complication.
Danny: Nobody taught me how to deal with that. uh, in all those years of training and education. And I, um after I was able to recover, and I learned how to recover, I really went on I don't know crusade's the right word, but I'm going to, I made it my mission that, uh, I was going to try to turn something positive into this. And, uh, if you, the end of my, introduction of my book is a quote by, um,
Danny: the physician and Holocaust survivor, Viktor Frankl, who said suffering ceases to be suffering the moment it finds meaning.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: And this is one of my ways every time I'm able to pick a colleague up or support them, um I find my meaning. And so that's kind of my background story of how I got into studying resilience, starting peer support groups, what goes on in our, in the neurochemistry in our brain when bad things happen.
Luisa Hogan: Amazing. And I love that work book by Dr. Frankel. It's amazing work. I do. ah My work is in resilience and steady leadership. So um i absolutely love that you draw on that as as part of your work. But tell me, like in in all your findings, what makes it so hard for physicians?
Luisa Hogan: Why do they struggle so much privately with with surgical complications? And tell me, like, what what is the the story around why it's not talked about and why they're you know not sharing it?
Danny: Yeah, so I'll i'll answer the the second one the second question first because I think it's a little bit easier.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. who
Danny: Surgeons, I think, have a stereotype or believe like I don't want to show weakness or vulnerability because that's not what the patient wants.
Danny: You want me to walk in and say, you're in the best hands that you could be in. um you know, nobody better than me. And nothing bad's going to happen.
Danny: And in the short term, that's usually is what people want to hear.
Danny: We then, when we meet each other or sign a consent to do surgery, we've established a trust with each other. And when a complication happens, then I violated your trust.
Danny: And that is devastating.
Luisa Hogan: Hmm.
Danny: ah Because we went into this field to help people, make people better, improve quality of life. And then a complication happens and i have let you down.
Danny: And on top of that, we don't tend to talk about it because of, i would probably say mostly embarrassment, as well as um
Danny: harm of reputation. You know, it's like, hey, don't send people to Danny.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danny: He's the guy who had this complication, which is how I felt after my worst complication. So I think that's why it's not ah um not embraced ah very well. It's not the culture ah that we have, especially in surgery. And so i think that's where I'm pretty convinced that's where it comes from.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. And, do you know, it's it's funny, I listen and, you know, a lot of the listeners of of this podcast are are leaders, executive leaders, and I work with executive leaders. And I find that it's very often the same, not not quite the same. I mean, the stakes are very high as a surgeon and a physician. But, know,
Luisa Hogan: you know, that same fear of vulnerability and what they think vulnerability and what they think resilience is where, you know, resilience means I can't show anybody that I am struggling.
Luisa Hogan: I can't show anybody any weakness. That's what resilience is about being tough. And I can't show anybody that I actually might, that I'm human, that I'm pretty much human.
Danny: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: And I can only imagine how difficult that would be, as you say, in a space like this, where, you know, you've got a patient looking at you and they just a hundred percent trust you. You're the doctor and people aren't taught to question doctors either.
Luisa Hogan: Right. and Like I find you just, you're not, you're taught to don't question your doctor.
Danny: Yeah, the the the Internet's changed that a little bit, but ah where where I think we're getting questioned a little bit more.
Luisa Hogan: Right.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: ah But there are certainly people with lower health care literacy who in general will say,
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: whatever you think, doctor, or or what do you think is, is best.
Luisa Hogan: What's best, yeah. Yeah.
Danny: I realized I didn't answer part one of your question from before.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: And and I'll share with you, you were asking me specifically, you know, about surgery and surgeons and doctors helping it, why it's so difficult. I read this great book years ago that talked about the three Ps.
Danny: Have you heard of the three Ps before?
Luisa Hogan: I have, yes, yeah.
Danny: Yeah. And so, yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Tell us more, so because all you people listening, yeah.
Danny: So pe yeah P, yeah. P number one, personal, this is the three P's are what happens in our brain when things go bad. P number one, personalization.
Danny: This was my fault. This is very prevalent in surgery. I think more so than any other field of medicine. So if I'm an internist and I give you a medication to lower your blood pressure, your cholesterol, and it doesn't come down, it's the, it's the pill that didn't work.
Danny: But when I fail to identify the proper anatomy or you know, throw a bad stitch or something, personalization, that was my fault.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Danny: So there's P number one, that that hurts us. The other two are actually, to me, more insidious and actually worse. I think most people understand the personalization one, this was my fault.
Danny: P number two, pervasiveness. And that is when you make a mistake in one arena or aspect of your life, It filters in into other things. And here's what I tell people after I had that horrible complication. Here was my internal thought.
Danny: for I had this complication, bad outcome. I am a bad surgeon. Not only am I a bad surgeon, I'm just an overall bad doctor.
Danny: Because I'm a bad doctor, it's most likely that I'm not a great husband. If I'm not a great husband, it's also likely that I'm not a great dad. If I'm also not a great dad, I'm probably not a very good friend.
Danny: And on and on and on. that the What happened in the operating room that day pervade or infiltrated other parts of our life. And I think that most people who would be in a conversation or listening to this podcast right now would probably nod their head and agree.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Danny: That one's tough to go over. The last one, the last P, is permanence. that I will never get over this. I will always be the doctor that had that complication.
Danny: why would anybody send me a patient ever again? Cause I'm the doctor who had this come. This will always follow me. Those three P's are extremely difficult to overcome and, um play.
Danny: I always tell people, our brains are flawed.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Danny: Uh, And what I mean by that is when these bad things happen, bad things hurt us about two to two and a half times more than good things help us.
Danny: And so one bad outcome equals I've got to do two and a half to three surgeries with no complications just to feel net even about myself. Not even before I feel good about myself, just to feel net.
Danny: those three Ps can be really difficult. ah
Luisa Hogan: hmm.
Danny: And i don't think that's universal to surgery. I just, I think people understand surgery does tend to be a little bit more high stakes that the outcomes can be a little bit more dramatic.
Danny: ah You know, death, kidney failure, you know, loss of life, limb, things like that.
Luisa Hogan: For sure. Yeah. Those three P's and and and the more resilient a person is actually resilient, not their definition of resilience that people think, which is I'm tough, but more resilient people are very good at managing those three P's, right? They don't take things personally. They don't let it pervade into their life. And they, you know, they don't, um, you know, they don't, they don't indulge in those three P's. Right. And that there's something that I find interesting too, is that a negative emotion,
Luisa Hogan: if you allow it to pass through, you only last 60 to 90 seconds. But what becomes difficult is that we relive that emotion over and over and over again. And that's what makes that emotion last by reliving it. And it becomes almost self-punishment, right?
Danny: It's a hundred percent. And that's why i can't remember which chapter it was in my book. It was towards the end, but I, I, one of the take home messages was learn to talk nicely to yourself.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Danny: So I can say one of two things to myself after a surgical complication. You're a horrible doctor. um How can you still not get this right after I've now been in practice 16 years, plus all the training that I told you, how can you still not get this right? ah You know, maybe you should go look for another career. I could say those things to myself or Danny, I'm proud of you for trying to help this person.
Danny: You have the skills and tools to make their lives lives better. This is not the outcome that I wanted, but I know that I can help people and pick myself back up. This did not go the way that I wanted it to.
Danny: I'm going to figure out what I can do better, and then I'm going go out and help the next person because you have the skills and the tools to do that. That's the Those are the two avenues that you can take and you got to learn to talk nicely to yourself.
Danny: And if you don't, that negative thought spiral gets out of control.
Luisa Hogan: You're speaking my language and that's why this podcast exists.
Danny: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: I love it. I love that's your message. I mean, some people listening though might be saying, okay, but you know, you you need to take personal responsibility for your mistakes, you know, but what is the difference then between taking responsibility for a mistake and punishing yourself in that grueling way?
Danny: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Because some people might think, well, I'm just bit taking responsibility. That's how I'm going to tell myself or telling myself I'm done and I shouldn't have done that. And you're, you know, you're the worst ever. They might think that that's taking responsibility.
Luisa Hogan: How can I tell the difference?
Danny: So the first thing that I would say is we as individuals are actually horrible at judging ourselves of whether we did.
Danny: And one of my favorite slides that I have in a talk that I give on feedback is asking people who here is an above average driver. Okay. And everybody's hands or the poles go up. And then I show a slide of people who were trained, who were tested by trained instructors on whether or not they were safe to continue to drive.
Danny: Those who almost caused lethal accidents where the instructor had to take over to prevent the accident rated themselves no worse of a driver than anybody else.
Danny: Okay. So our self assessments of ourselves are terrible.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: And, That is in general, it's because we tend to judge ourselves by our intentions and we judge other people by their performance.
Danny: You know, I was trying to help this person. ah So I always say when I have a complication, it was like, you know, I was trying to help. i was doing the right thing. If you have the same complications because you have bad technique or bad judgment.
Danny: So knowing that we're horrible judges of ourselves. You have to have what I call an inner circle. Those are the people in your life who care about you and love you so much that they're willing to hurt your feelings to help you understand where you can improve and where you can get better.
Danny: That's taking personal responsibility. hey inner inner circle person, here's what happened. tell me about my thought process, my actions, things like that.
Danny: How can I get better? That's taking, that's taking responsibility because those people aren't there to be your yes men and yes women. That to me is how you take And then when those people, when your inner circle, not the crowd or, you know social media or whatever, anything like that, when those people, are you listen,
Danny: You do a deep dive. That's how you get better.
Luisa Hogan: It's such good advice because again, you know, one of the markers of resilience is resilient people have a really great inner circle, social connection, deep social connection, right?
Danny: budget Absolutely. It is It's imperative.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: It is absolutely, you know, you got to cultivate and nourish those relationships because that's your support group when things don't go well.
Danny: And that's also your path to performance improvement.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: Uh, and so if you don't have those people, i tell people you're probably going struggle, uh, because you can't do this yourself.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, for sure.
Danny: And it, it goes back to a word that we dropped very briefly at the beginning of the podcast that I believe so strongly in, and that's the word vulnerability.
Luisa Hogan: Mmm. Mmm.
Danny: You will build trust. when you make yourself vulnerable. And if you're not willing to make yourself vulnerable, the odds of you having you know meaningful ah connections with people are low.
Danny: And that's hard for people because there's a small fraction of people out there that when you drop your guard and show your vulnerability, that will use it against you.
Luisa Hogan: what What kind of vulnerability are you talking about? Because I know from the clients that I work with, they get really scared by the word vulnerability because of their impression of what they think vulnerability means.
Danny: Yeah.
Danny: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: They think it means I need to cry in front of people to show vulnerability or I need to show weakness. Tell me more about what advice you give about how it is that, what what does vulnerability look like?
Danny: Yeah. So I'll give you a a great example from the world of surgery that that I think helps.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Danny: So a lot of times, especially doing like acute emergencies and all that stuff, I'll be paired with people in the operating room that I really haven't met before, or haven't worked with ah before, whether that be a new anesthesiologist, a new scrub tech, a new circulator, whatever, and all that.
Danny: And we're about to do something, you know emergent that could have high risks to it. And you could tell that they're nervous. They want to perform well. They don't want to do. So ways that I have expressed my vulnerability or ability, A,
Danny: a I'm Danny. It's nice to meet you. Yeah. You know, uh, thanks for helping out. And if they say, you know, something like, you know, this isn't my area of expertise or and all that stuff. I'll say something like, you can't screw this up any worse than I have before in the past.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Danny: Right now I'm a human being.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Danny: I'm a human being with empathy for their situation. It shows I don't expect perfection. It shows that I'm not perfect. And, Now I've just said, look there's some vulnerability. I have made mistakes before.
Danny: I have an expectation that mistakes potentially would be made. At the same time, it's like, I'm also trying to like, I've learned from those. I'm the captain of this ship. I'm going to guide this ship to safety, you know, stick with me.
Danny: So those are the types of things. People bounce a lot of cases off of me and I'll be like, Don't ask me how I know this, but I would not do this technique.
Danny: You know, don't ask me how I know, which is just a way of, you know, don't to give them the full details of how I screwed it up before in the past, but it's like, listen, i've been in this situation.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah,
Luisa Hogan: for sure.
Danny: I didn't think I handled it all that well. That to me is vulnerability.
Luisa Hogan: yeah for sure
Danny: without Without saying i don't have the confidence I don't have the confidence or the competence to do this.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, for sure. it's It's funny because, um you know, I like reading the work by, don't know if you've heard of Patrick Lencioni and he talks, like he's he's amazing.
Danny: Of course.
Luisa Hogan: I love his work. And he talks about vulnerability-based trust and how, you know, in teams specifically, you know, saying things like I need help or I don't know the answer or disagree, that's showing vulnerability because it's risking somebody will not like you or will not like you, have the thing that you have to say.
Danny: Absolutely.
Luisa Hogan: That's what vulnerability is. It's taking a risk, right?
Danny: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: And what you're describing is taking a risk, like showing them my imperfection.
Danny: No, that's the... is Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: The hard part is... If you do take a risk and somebody burns you, that hurts two to two and a half times more than the connection that I have with somebody.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: And so you will be hesitant to do that again. You see that a lot of times, right?
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Danny: In people's personal relationships, right? Their personal relationship, they broke up with somebody, they got their trust violated. It hurts. I'm not think I want to be in a relationship again. I don't think I can take that risk.
Danny: ah But no, i have a whole part of a lecture based on his, that vulnerability, that building trust, that's the base of the pyramid, which means it's the strongest layer, the biggest layer that contributes to teams and team dysfunction.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Danny: um And what I say is 90 to 95% of the time, maybe even higher, if I drop my guard first, I could see it in people's ah like, that's when they relax a little bit.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: That other few percent, You just need to stay away from them.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, for sure. For sure. And follow your gut with that too, right? So tell me about, tell me about the replay loop. Like what's actually happening psychologically when we keep reliving a mistake?
Danny: ah
Luisa Hogan: Because I imagine this happens a lot. And, you know, you alluded to it earlier, how you keep replaying your, your mistake over and over again. What's happening in that situation?
Luisa Hogan: How can people avoid it?
Danny: Yeah. So I guess the first thing I'll say is I'm not actually sure that you can avoid it. I would say, how can you potentially break the cycle of it not happening over and over again?
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Danny: But I don't think it's possible to avoid it. When people come to me for peer support or or to run something, by me i I usually say, there's nothing that I'm going to say in this moment right now that is going to instantaneously make you feel better.
Danny: That is not realistic. ah This is... I'm trying to help you in the, in the longterm breaking that, um helping people break that thought process cycle though has a couple of things, uh, to it.
Danny: One is I just flat out ask people, can you talk to yourself nicely or do you talk to yourself nicely? What's the narrative that you say, you know, is it,
Danny: you know, I'm a horrible person. I'm a horrible doctor. I shouldn't be do this. I should be drawn and quartered. ah Or, ah or is it you know, I have the skills to get over some of the things that we talked about earlier.
Danny: Then, ah then I go into how, believe it or not, a lawyer taught me how a malpractice lawyer, none none nonetheless,
Luisa Hogan: the
Danny: gave me a great strategy. And she taught me, and this is what I say to other people, knowing that the two to two and a half X factor is in there.
Danny: She said, you know, when you operate on somebody and it goes well, I'm not only having a positive effect on their life, but you know, if they're married, then I had a positive effect on their spouse's life.
Danny: If they have kids, then I had a positive effect on their kids' life. And if they're a teacher, I had a positive effect on the kids in their classroom. If they were a coach, I have a positive effect on their team and their teammates.
Danny: If they're part of a congregation somewhere, i now it wasn't that I just helped one person. I've woven this web of ways that i made a personal impact and did good in the world.
Luisa Hogan: Wow.
Danny: And that, that goes a long way for people. And it goes to, um one of the things that I tell people to do is, I tell them to keep a nice book.
Danny: Uh, and actually mine, here's mine. This is everything that people have written to me over the years to know that yeah certain single events don't define ah Those are other, yes, things did not go the way that I wanted them to, but ah so I tell people to keep a nice book.
Luisa Hogan: hmm.
Danny: The reason behind the nice book is it's been shown to stop that negative thought spiral is not to, that you have to count your active contributions, not passive.
Danny: So things that don't help, it could be worse or Thank God, you know, my kids are healthy. And i didn't do anything to make my kids healthy.
Danny: You know? and listly But those people, I actively did something that made their lives better. That helps stop the negative thoughts that are in there with time.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Amazing. You know, I've got something very similar. I've got a fishbowl on my desk and I can't grab it because I'll knock everything over and that will be bad. But I have a fishbowl and I put post-it notes in it every day of good things that have happened
Danny: Every day.
Luisa Hogan: And it just, every day i'll just put a little thing in there that's like, good and you know what, it just fills up with all these beautiful, colorful post-it notes. And when you're having a bad moment, you can look over at your fishbowl and I'm like, you know, for this bad thing, look at all those good things that are happening for me right now, you know, and it's, it works a treat.
Danny: Yeah. the That's a very, yeah. That's a very healthy ah thing to do.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: The other thing I will say, since we're on the subject, when it's for somebody else, one of the strongest things that you can do is actively do something for that person.
Luisa Hogan: yeah
Danny: Don't ask how I can help because when I do that, I have shifted. I've given you you're struggling. I just gave you one more thing. What can you tell Danny to help him feel better about helping me?
Luisa Hogan: you know Yeah.
Danny: Whatever. Actively do something for that person. Write him a handwritten note, take him out for coffee. You know, i say, what, what, what kind of coffee do you like? We're going to go out. So you might as well tell me what you like.
Danny: Uh, things like that, that actually makes a difference helping other people's stop their negative thought process. But asking how I can help or bringing up, you know, at least it it could be worse or anything like that. None of those things have been shown to to make a difference.
Luisa Hogan: Amazing. Such good advice. So tell me, you know, I'd love to talk to you more. I never have enough time in these, but you know, if somebody is listening now and they have made, um, you know, a terrible mistake that they're finding it really difficult to live with, what's your number one tip that you can give them?
Luisa Hogan: The the main thing that maybe helped you or helps help other people. You've given amazing tips here today, but a thing that comes to mind straight away.
Danny: The thing that comes to mind, this this is overwhelming evidence. This isn't just like Danny's advice. This is this is research.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Danny: The overwhelming thing that's shown to make a difference is finding somebody who does exactly what you do and getting support from them. So let me just clarify that.
Luisa Hogan: yeah
Danny: When my awful complication happened, I'd been married 16 years, you know, to my beautiful wife, Alyssa. who is not in healthcare. care She knew her husband was sad. She would listen to my stories about, this is the anatomy that I thought I saw. This is the anatomy.
Danny: It was my, it was one of my heroes. It was the chairman who who hired me here. It was just a wonderful, wonderful person. I wrote about him in the book. When I spoke to him and I told him, i began telling him the story about I'm not doing well. I had this, um I'll never forget this.
Danny: And he went, this guy has been every position in surgery in like, I mean, just a ah giant. He starts telling me a story that was equally as bad as mine about a complication that he had with another fantastic surgeon helping him.
Danny: And I said, that happened to you? because He goes, yeah, Danny, it happens to everybody. And that's when my healing began because it was somebody else who did exactly what I did and then normalized my feelings.
Danny: So my one piece of who's your inner circle and who does what you do and find support from them.
Luisa Hogan: That is the best advice and so much why this podcast exists because I want people to listen to this podcast and hear other leaders and other people just like them who have struggled, who have the internal battles and suddenly you don't feel so alone anymore. You're in the trenches with somebody else, right?
Danny: Very much so. you know Remember for like the people who go on to master and to do great are not the ones who avoid mistakes.
Luisa Hogan: Hmm.
Danny: The ones who say mistakes are part of the process. And those are the people who are most likely to progress on to mastery than it is the ones who are always trying to avoid the mistakes. And if you can do that and then have the resilience to say, and the internal monologue, okay, That did not go the way that i wanted it to.
Danny: I'm going to call in my inner circle, get some feedback, but I have the skills and the tools to learn from this and do more good from it. Those people, i think, are the ones who who lead, you know, to great change and get people to follow them.
Luisa Hogan: Amazing. Thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to connect with you? Where can they find your book? Where is it on sale so that people can read it?
Danny: Certainly. So my, my website integrity surgery.org. Uh, that has a way to get ahold of me, on there. It also has links to the book, uh, the books.
Danny: I don't know about the Australian market as much, but you guys have Barnes and Noble over there and it's on Amazon and, and all that.
Luisa Hogan: I think so. Yes.
Luisa Hogan: Yep.
Danny: But if you just put in cut open in my last name, it will be there. Every book I sell gets me an extra seven bucks. Uh, so ah but it's, it you know, the book was out there to hopefully make a small difference in people's um and their journey to professional and personal satisfaction. So again, the website's integrity surgery.org. The book is out there. um i am on LinkedIn.
Danny: If I don't know, you guys, are you LinkedIn people over there in ah in Australia?
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, we're definitely LinkedIn people. Yep, we're definitely there.
Danny: ah But I refuse to do any social media, which I do not.
Luisa Hogan: That's
Danny: Cause I think it's,
Luisa Hogan: probably wise.
Danny: I think it's the devil. That's a different subject for for a different day.
Luisa Hogan: Another day. I'll have you back and talk about that one.
Danny: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: I'll tell you, that's ah that's a whole other episode on its own.
Danny: ah But yeah, there's ways to get a hold of me through there, through through my email, if more talks or, you know, I've always wanted to see your beautiful country.
Luisa Hogan: Excellent.
Danny: You know, if there's anybody over there that, you know, wants to invite me over to Australia, i would i would love to see Ayers Rock and the Opera House and the Barrier Reef and all that stuff.
Luisa Hogan: Oh, you're in for a treat when you come visit. There's so many beautiful things here.
Danny: No doubt.
Luisa Hogan: Well, we'll hope to see you and make sure you reach out to me. I'll definitely say hi and show you around. I'm in West Australia, so it'll be good to see you.
Danny: Are you in Perth? Is that where you're at
Luisa Hogan: I'm in Perth, yeah. The best part of Australia, and I know all of Australians will be cringing at that right now because they'll disagree, but Perth is the best, I would say.
Danny: at? Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful.
Luisa Hogan: Well, thank you so much for having ah for joining me today. i really, really appreciate your insights and your story. It's not every day that we hear stories like yours and hear the vulnerability in your story and and hear stories of other surgeons and other people in the clinical setting.
Luisa Hogan: and So thank you so much for your honesty and your sharing today. I really appreciate it
Danny: um My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Luisa Hogan: No worries. And to everyone listening, what I've taken about today is that failure may be inevitable. In fact, it is inevitable. But the voice you choose to listen to afterwards, that's what's ultimately going to shape the kind of leader that you become. And I love that Daniel said that that is how you attain mastery. So thank you for joining us today on the Second Voice Podcast. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.
