Transcript
Speaker: Hey there, I'm Jodie and you're listening to the Empathy Talks podcast brought to you by Circle In.
Speaker: If you care about caring, then this podcast is for you.
Speaker: We're talking to well-known CEOs and executives to find out what empathetic leadership really looks like, what it means to them and how they're creating an empathetic culture.
Speaker: We'll unpack why empathy is a critical leadership skill and why having it in life and in business is more important than ever.
Speaker: So let's get into it and unearth why empathy is so much more than a buzzword.
Speaker: Circlant acknowledges the traditional owners and custodians of the land in which we're recording this podcast, the Wadawurrung people, and we pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
Speaker: So Malia Fauna is passionate about helping people regularly and she speaks on things such as innovation, emerging technology, entrepreneurship, leadership and diversity.
Speaker: She's a partner at EY within their global government investment and incentives team and also plays a key role in the EY private leadership team.
Speaker: I'm absolutely thrilled to have her here today.
Speaker: So let's jump on in and talk all things empathy.
Speaker: So Malia, welcome and great to have you here on the podcast.
Speaker: I'd love to start with hearing a little bit about your leadership journey and specifically, what does empathetic leadership mean to you?
Speaker: Great to be joining you on your Empathy Talks podcast, Jodie.
Speaker: Love what you and Kate are doing with Circle Inn and we've certainly...
Speaker: use the platform a lot at EY where I'm a partner at.
Speaker: Look, I describe my leadership journey as one of just continual growth and change.
Speaker: And one that I think we can all relate to, we all wear different hats, which informs that leadership journey.
Speaker: And so whilst I'm a partner at EY, as I just mentioned, and I do have a number of leadership roles, I
Speaker: I certainly believe that all the things that I've been presented to deal with, some of them have been challenges over the years across different teams, different geographies, is that that helps prepare us for whatever is next and what we're capable of so that we can, I firmly believe, be the change that we actually want to see.
Speaker: I guess for me, I've come from a family that migrated from the US to New Zealand when I was young.
Speaker: and grew up in a community primarily of Indigenous peoples, the New Zealand Māori people.
Speaker: And so I spoke a bit different to them and I felt different.
Speaker: I certainly looked different on the bus to school from that community.
Speaker: And I think from that experience and my parents' very active involvement in helping with that community through
Speaker: council and government support and just absolute practical help we lived within that community absolutely shaped me to help me to be comfortable with the uncomfortable in my leadership journey but also to to often not even see differences and and to be that change we want to see and and when I reflect on that upbringing into
Speaker: how I am as an adult.
Speaker: It's shaped my need, I'd say, to have a higher level purpose in my technical career path and day-to-day work.
Speaker: And it certainly influenced where I choose to spend my time and actively help particular causes that I'm really passionate about.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: And, you know, credit to you, it certainly shines through you as a leader and from, you know, the work that I've had the pleasure of doing with you.
Speaker: But, you know, I was going to ask you about if you feel like being an empathetic leader, you know, comes naturally, you know, you're born with it, or is it something you can learn?
Speaker: For you, you've just shared that for you, you've learnt it from a very early age.
Speaker: So clearly it's part of your DNA, who you are.
Speaker: But do you feel like you either are or you aren't?
Speaker: Or is it something you feel like you can learn?
Speaker: I absolutely think it's something that we can all learn.
Speaker: I think, you know, as a mother of my two greatest life lessons, my two sons, Zachary and Dominic, I believe, you know, we are all as individuals born with empathy.
Speaker: And what is crystallized for me over the years and continues to crystallize is that how we express that empathy varies from person to person and how we intentionally express
Speaker: that empathy muscle, just like any other muscle, if we don't use it and we don't practice it, it doesn't become a habit or a second nature.
Speaker: And so it's within those periods of tough times, tough decisions, difficult periods of time, if we actively intentionally activate that empathy muscle, it is a skill that we can all learn.
Speaker: I very much believe that.
Speaker: Oh, we're talking the same language.
Speaker: I always say that we need to make this a daily habit.
Speaker: It's not a one-off.
Speaker: And how do we build empathy muscle?
Speaker: So I love that we're using the same language.
Speaker: I'd love to, and also I love the reference to kids.
Speaker: You know, I've got little kids and I'm really proud that, you know, I feel like they are growing up in an environment where empathy is part of, you know, who we all are.
Speaker: We are talking, you know, in a different way to them and they're certainly learning.
Speaker: you know, what does empathy mean?
Speaker: I'm interested, is there someone that's really shaped, you know, your career from a leadership perspective or has really, you know, shone out for you as being a real empathetic leader?
Speaker: I often, when I think about, you know, mental responses who we learn from, I often, from my own perspective, learn from those leaders who I observed to be empathetic
Speaker: or have other skills that I admire, but also equally those who I do not see as empathetic leaders and to be that change that I think we all, you know, certainly you and I and others want to see.
Speaker: And in saying that, I certainly have had the privilege of working with many empathetic leaders and the work
Speaker: an aspect that just really shines through when we think about the difficult decisions that we went through through the pandemic and that it taught us that not only is change constant, it's an absolute life certainty and challenging decisions, you know, be it around decisions we make related to our people, our team, our families, practical things in an operational sense and from work around hybrid work, reduced hours, you know,
Speaker: performance matters with staff.
Speaker: And whenever we're in some of those more crises modes that I've observed with just with my own teams and many of the CEOs I work with is that what stands out is that people-centered decision-making approach always wins and it matters.
Speaker: And when we can share that humanity and vulnerability, that we don't have all the answers, but we're all trying and coming from a place of heart and head, then that creates psychological safety.
Speaker: Oh, you've summarised it beautifully.
Speaker: Yeah, sorry, was there something else you wanted to
Speaker: I was just going to elaborate on that whole concept of psychological safety.
Speaker: And so the best empathetic leaders, or just people, because it doesn't necessarily need to be leaders, leaders can be a title, it can be anyone.
Speaker: Are those people that make you proactively feel that psychological safety?
Speaker: by not just encouraging people to speak up, but also by directly asking them and just creating opportunities for them to share their point of view and share diverse points of views through listening instead of just planning on what they might say next and really, really focus on the other person, giving space,
Speaker: and that active listening I love it when when you can hear a conversation and there's not that that interruption I guess and and bringing that conversation back to your own needs and really focusing on the person.
Speaker: Yeah I mean you've said so much and if I can just talk about active listening you know someone said to me the other day the biggest tip you know or you know you've been actively listening if you haven't had your head down and you're writing questions to ask the person you know which we
Speaker: all do sometimes.
Speaker: We're quick to be writing and that's not practicing active listening.
Speaker: It's looking people in the eye.
Speaker: It's being part of the conversation and showing real empathy.
Speaker: And, you know, we're very passionate here about, you know, at Circling about psychological safety.
Speaker: And, you know, our purpose is to, you know, to create workplaces that are safe and caring.
Speaker: And that safety element is really important.
Speaker: People want to work in an environment where they can speak up.
Speaker: And I think, you know, you touched on
Speaker: listening to the unspoken.
Speaker: One of the things I often say is listen to the unheard voices, you know, who's not talking on Zoom?
Speaker: How do we create space where, you know, it might be an emoji, it might be getting them to chat, you know, in the chat functionality, but how do we bring everyone in and create that environment?
Speaker: So it's great to hear that, you know, psychological safety is important for you at EY as well.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely.
Speaker: One of the better empathy metaphors I've heard recently is, you
Speaker: and you've touched on it, it's all those micro moments.
Speaker: So it's micro moments where we create all these snowflakes to make a snowball of that change that we want.
Speaker: And we can choose to flip that switch on those really active, empathetic micro moments.
Speaker: It's not necessarily big, bold actions.
Speaker: No, it's the micro moments.
Speaker: And I love that.
Speaker: For you then, what's the most important thing about showing empathy in the workplace?
Speaker: Well, I've been really keenly observing that I feel like there's an evolving state of empathy in the workplace and perhaps it's in recognition of the upsides of empathetic leadership in the workplace.
Speaker: But also I do believe it's in part because of the pandemic and this new working world that we find ourselves in and that
Speaker: we've all seen that what happens outside of work has a direct impact on how we as an individual show up, but also how our team and how our people show up and that it's just no longer enough for us as individuals to think of a person in one dimension as an employee or a professional within the organisation and leading with empathy in the workplace helps us
Speaker: really actively move from that transactional mode and to the person or the people so that they feel supported both personally and professionally.
Speaker: You know, I think if we think about how we often see people now and the conversations we have, it's no longer
Speaker: Mary and they're a tax manager, but it's Mary who has a dog and they're caring for a child and they are a sister and they are a daughter.
Speaker: And they're also an avid gamer because we've seen that virtually through the screens of their bedroom or their office.
Speaker: And we now have this
Speaker: opportunity to we can see what we perhaps couldn't see before and that we are all multi-dimensional more than ever before and we have that new appreciation for who people are.
Speaker: I'm interested, do you believe that everybody is a leader?
Speaker: I believe that everyone, it's an interesting question, I believe that everyone has the capacity to lead in their own unique way.
Speaker: And the more that we focus on people's strengths, what they're good at and comfortable with, the more we're going to help them to shine in the leadership of whatever we're talking about.
Speaker: It can be sports.
Speaker: It could be within their friendship group.
Speaker: It could be in a work context, but not always.
Speaker: I do feel like some of those leadership skills, moving from manager to a leader, also,
Speaker: can be taught and is gain a muscle that we can exercise.
Speaker: Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker: It's an interesting question.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, no, we debated a lot here.
Speaker: So we've talked about a lot.
Speaker: For those listening that want, you know, one piece of practical advice, they want to show more empathy, they might be dealing with a challenging situation at the moment, is there, you know, what's your one nugget piece of advice that you'd like to pass on?
Speaker: I would say, yeah,
Speaker: Be thoughtful, be kind and be curious.
Speaker: This is one of the things I often say to my children in the morning, not in those exact words, but it's along the lines of try your best, be kind and ask questions.
Speaker: And so whether or not they know it or not, and probably not yet, but what I mean is to be thoughtful and kind in their own actions, be thoughtful and kind to themselves.
Speaker: And be thoughtful and kind and curious with whoever they are dealing with in the day or in making decisions.
Speaker: And I guess related to that, I know I'm going into two pieces of advice.
Speaker: No, please do.
Speaker: Keep going.
Speaker: Is to just start by transforming yourself as an empathetic learner and leader because leading with empathy, it has to be mirrored from the top down.
Speaker: I mean, we can see that with what we've observed in the political arena.
Speaker: particularly overseas, but also in Australia over recent years.
Speaker: And that emotional transformation we go through is a lifelong journey.
Speaker: And the more that we can constantly work on ourselves to deepen self-awareness so that we can manage the myriad of emotions and life challenges, that's going to help us navigate others' challenges
Speaker: both personal professional stakeholders to navigate their their own amount of emotion so transforming yourself is really paramount yeah you know I was at an event last week and I'm an incredible thought leader and we were talking a lot about empathy and she said at the end of the day you want to go to bed each night and know that you've done the best job you can
Speaker: And I thought that was a really beautiful way and goes into being kind, curious, you know, all of the behaviours that we want to see and knowing that you've given it your best and you've done the best job you can.
Speaker: So it's really fitting to kind of come to the end and, you know, is there, we always ask this question, is there someone on LinkedIn or someone that you love that really for you displays, you know, real empathy and perhaps is someone we could all start following and learn from?
Speaker: Susan David.
Speaker: I love Susan David.
Speaker: She's one of the external experts, in addition to Circle In, who in particular helped EY partners through the period of turmoil during the pandemic.
Speaker: She's a Harvard Medical School psychologist, and she's an expert on emotional agility and how, you know, the psychology of how we use emotion to bring forward our best selves and how we
Speaker: We love and we lead and we parent.
Speaker: And I know we're on a podcast, but I do.
Speaker: I was gifted her book, actually.
Speaker: It's amazing.
Speaker: I've read it.
Speaker: Agility.
Speaker: It's highly, highly recommend it.
Speaker: You might also know Jodie, you might have seen her TED talk as well on the gift and power of emotional courage.
Speaker: Yeah, she's brilliant.
Speaker: That's a great tip.
Speaker: And again, I second that.
Speaker: Anyone that
Speaker: isn't following Susan, jump on.
Speaker: She's fantastic to follow on Instagram, LinkedIn.
Speaker: She always provides words of wisdom and some inspiring topics.
Speaker: So with that, thank you for everything you do.
Speaker: We absolutely love partnering with the team at EY and are very, very grateful for an incredible partnership and the work we do to support your parents and caregivers.
Speaker: And thank you for joining us on Empathy Talks.
Speaker: Thank you, Jodie.
Speaker: Very happy to.
Speaker: And Jodie, I'd also just like to share a recently released 2023 EY US Empathy and Business Survey that followed a 2021 business survey we've done.
Speaker: And I think it's got some really interesting data that applies to this region that your listeners would enjoy.
Speaker: And it really shows that
Speaker: through data and research, the many upsides to empathetic leadership in the workplace and the why.
Speaker: So I will share that with you as well to share with the listeners.
Speaker: That's fantastic.
Speaker: And for anyone listening, we'll pop that in the link and share it widely on LinkedIn.
Speaker: So thank you again.
Speaker: And yeah, it was great to chat.
Speaker: Thank you for having me.
