Transcript
Speaker: Hey there, I'm Jodie and you're listening to the Empathy Talks podcast brought to you by Circle In.
Speaker: If you care about caring, then this podcast is for you.
Speaker: We're talking to well-known CEOs and executives to find out what empathetic leadership really looks like, what it means to them and how they're creating an empathetic culture.
Speaker: We'll unpack why empathy is a critical leadership skill and why having it in life and in business is more important than ever.
Speaker: So let's get into it and unearth why empathy is so much more than a buzzword.
Speaker: Circlant acknowledges the traditional owners and custodians of the land in which we're recording this podcast, the Wadawurrung people, and we pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
Speaker: Welcome to Empathy Talks.
Speaker: We are in for a great one today.
Speaker: We're being joined by Beverly Simpson, who is the founder and lead consultant of Ignite Culture Consulting.
Speaker: Bev works with startups, scale-ups, you know, various industries to really help grow their people and importantly, grow their cultures.
Speaker: So at the core of what Bev is doing every single day is helping companies to really embed empathy.
Speaker: So I'm really looking forward to hearing from Bev about this.
Speaker: She is a seasoned HR professional with an incredible background across companies, including NIB, Network 10 and more.
Speaker: So with that, I'd love to welcome Bev and kickstart the conversation around empathy.
Speaker: So welcome Bev to Empathy Talks.
Speaker: Thanks so much, Jodes.
Speaker: It's really, really lovely to be here.
Speaker: It's lovely.
Speaker: It's a subject I'm really passionate about.
Speaker: So yeah, I can't wait to chat about it this morning.
Speaker: Yeah, I know you are.
Speaker: And I'm really excited to dive into this with you.
Speaker: So let's kick off with your leadership journey.
Speaker: And I'm really interested to know from your perspective, what does empathetic leadership look like and mean to you?
Speaker: I think for me, empathetic leadership really means connecting with the needs of your people.
Speaker: So it really means kind of coming back to people as people and not just employees.
Speaker: So it's thinking about and trying to understand people's perspective.
Speaker: It's trying to understand the way that they feel.
Speaker: It's trying to understand their actions, even though they're not things that you might yourself have experienced.
Speaker: So really it's about, yeah, connection and understanding.
Speaker: And in my own journey, it's been absolutely vitally important, to be honest, empathy.
Speaker: When I got the invite to come and talk on the podcast, I was trying to think to myself about what are the qualities that make for really good leaders?
Speaker: And, you know, what are the qualities that make for really good business owners and really, you know, really good people, essentially?
Speaker: And as I was kind of thinking about it, I just thought,
Speaker: Empathy has to be really close to the top of the list for me in terms of the things that have made me successful in the work that I do.
Speaker: So for those who don't know, I have a culture and leadership consultancy and I have a background in HR and people and culture.
Speaker: And I honestly think if you're going to be successful in any of those places, whether it's a business, whether it's leadership, whether it's people and culture specifically, I think empathy is an absolute must.
Speaker: I just I don't think you can solve that.
Speaker: complex people problems.
Speaker: I don't think you can build really compelling and engaging cultures.
Speaker: I don't think you can grow people or build leader capability without having empathy.
Speaker: I think that you need that appreciation for what people are feeling and what they're experiencing to be able to help you solve for some really complex and also really exciting opportunities and challenges.
Speaker: Yeah, couldn't agree more.
Speaker: And I love how you summarized it in, you know, it's about understanding and connection.
Speaker: And I'd go even one step further and say, and also listening.
Speaker: And I'm sure we'll get to that.
Speaker: 100%.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: And tell me, like, do you believe you've always been an empathetic leader?
Speaker: Or do you believe it's something that you've learned over time?
Speaker: I'm really interested in this because everyone has a different perspective.
Speaker: What's your view on who you are?
Speaker: Yeah, look, I think that's a really, really good question.
Speaker: I think naturally and intuitively, I am quite an empathetic person.
Speaker: So that's kind of something that's just woven in through my life, through kind of growing up, through, you know, being a daughter, a friend, becoming a wife, becoming a mom, all of those kind of things and sort of showing up in my community, I suppose, and how that's kind of evolved for me over the years.
Speaker: So I think,
Speaker: Yes, for me, empathy kind of is an intuitive kind of part of who I am.
Speaker: But I absolutely think that if empathy isn't an intuitive part of who you are or of who other people are, it is definitely a skill that I think you can practice and hone over time.
Speaker: I definitely think that empathy
Speaker: You know, and even to the degree that I believe that if you are an empathetic person, but you're not taking actions using that empathy, then it might as well not exist at all.
Speaker: So I think that empathy is a way of being, but I also think it's a way of acting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so for me, I think that whilst I definitely hope I'm an empathetic leader and certainly I feel deep empathy for people, for community in the way that I go about my work.
Speaker: I don't think any of that means anything unless I actually show the learnings of that empathy or I take actions based on the experiences that that empathy gives me and put that into practice in the work that I do.
Speaker: Well, I can promise you, Bev, from the time I've known you, you are absolutely an empathetic leader in my eyes.
Speaker: So there's no doubt about that.
Speaker: And I'm pleased to hear that you believe it is a skill that you can learn.
Speaker: So for those listening, you know, if it's something you do struggle with, it is.
Speaker: And that's why we're here to help coach people.
Speaker: And that's why we do what we do, because I truly believe that, you know, with daily habits or whatever it may be, we can actually help people to be more empathetic.
Speaker: And the reality is,
Speaker: Some people just need a little nudge or a reminder of what to say and what to do.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: And I think, oh, sorry.
Speaker: I was just going to say that I think that, you know, there are like, there has to be a level of intentionality when it comes to empathy.
Speaker: So being really intentional about how you show up, using that empathy to take action that helps you to make better people decisions, better business decisions, better decisions within the community that
Speaker: you exist in.
Speaker: I think that, yeah, I really do think that there has to be intentional, there has to be intentional empathy in the way that we kind of go about things.
Speaker: And for me, that means that it absolutely can be learned.
Speaker: I think you can put checkpoints in your processes and your practices, which encourage empathy and yeah, create space, I suppose, space and time for empathy and decision-making.
Speaker: I think, yeah, it takes it from being something that is either intuitive or not,
Speaker: into something that you kind of can learn, develop and really should learn and develop as a leader or a business owner who wants to make really good people choices.
Speaker: So is there someone for you throughout, you know, your incredible career that's really stood out as being an empathetic leader?
Speaker: And I guess I'd love to know why, what made them so special?
Speaker: Yeah, I've actually, I'd say I've probably been quite lucky because in my career, I have been
Speaker: I've been fortunate enough to work with quite a few leaders who display really strong empathy.
Speaker: And I don't know if that is partly because of the industry that I work in.
Speaker: So, you know, partly because lots of people that work in the people space often do come to things through an empathetic
Speaker: So I think that's probably part of it.
Speaker: But I would say that, yeah, look, I've been fortunate to work for some great empathetic leaders.
Speaker: And for me, the biggest thing that has probably worked has been that I've felt really cared about.
Speaker: I felt really understood.
Speaker: I have felt that because they've taken time to ask questions, they've taken time to actually listen to
Speaker: to my thoughts and my perspective.
Speaker: And so for me, that the thing that empathy has brought to me in those sort of leadership situations is trust.
Speaker: So I've felt like I've got really strong trust with those leaders that have displayed empathy towards me.
Speaker: And what that means for me is that
Speaker: I, from, from those kinds of leaders that I've developed that trust with, I have had some of the most impactful feedback of my career through those leaders that have displayed that kind of really, um, demonstrable quality of empathy.
Speaker: So it doesn't mean that we never had a tough conversation.
Speaker: It doesn't mean that, you know, I'm a big feeling kind of person.
Speaker: So it doesn't mean that I've never, that I didn't walk away from some of those conversations feeling, you know, upset or disappointed when I've
Speaker: been kind of made aware of things that I was probably doing that were getting in my own way.
Speaker: You know, I've certainly had some of those conversations where, you know, how can you get out of your own way, essentially?
Speaker: And they're tough conversations, but what it...
Speaker: did mean that throughout those conversations and throughout those really impactful moments, I have felt respected and I felt understored.
Speaker: And I've really, I felt really listened to in times where I have probably also been quite vulnerable.
Speaker: And I think empathy creates space for having those conversations.
Speaker: And I think that sometimes empathy can be confused with not having tough conversations.
Speaker: I think that people can think that, um,
Speaker: Yeah, if you're a very empathetic person or if you're trying to display empathy, that might mean that you're avoiding having conversations that might be challenging for people to hear.
Speaker: But actually, I think that if you're a really empathetic leader who builds trust with people, then actually you're creating space and permission to have those conversations because you're coming from a place of trust.
Speaker: And the intention there is to see that person succeed.
Speaker: So I think empathy opens the door to having conversations like that.
Speaker: There's a few things you said there that really struck a chord with me.
Speaker: You know, you felt cared about, you felt understood, you felt listened to.
Speaker: It's really interesting, Bev, I spoke to part of some research.
Speaker: We're doing 30 employees recently.
Speaker: And I asked them, what's made a good manager good?
Speaker: And what's, tell me about a bad manager.
Speaker: And do you know every single person said exactly this?
Speaker: A good manager, they felt cared for, they felt listened to, and they felt understood.
Speaker: It's that empathy of feeling like they genuinely care.
Speaker: And it goes back to our purpose to create workplaces that care.
Speaker: Like ultimately people want to feel good.
Speaker: that they not only work for a workplace that cares about everyone, but their manager cares for them.
Speaker: And it's something we're deeply passionate about.
Speaker: And I think when you have that, it can have such an incredible impact on not only your team, but on the business, productivity, retention, everything benefits.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: I think that with something like empathy, I think that we know, you and I both know, we talk to lots of people in lots of businesses.
Speaker: As you've just said, the research that you're doing is consistently telling you that people want an environment where they feel cared about, they feel understood, they feel listened to.
Speaker: And it's really my belief that not only do people want that, but they deserve that.
Speaker: You know, we deserve to have an experience, whether we're at work, whether we're in our lives, in our communities, in our home, we deserve to have an experience where people care about us and understand us.
Speaker: And that doesn't mean that we're always going to see eye to eye.
Speaker: It doesn't mean that we're always going to agree.
Speaker: It doesn't mean that there aren't going to be challenging conversations.
Speaker: And that's OK, because.
Speaker: empathy is all about trying to understand the perspectives of others, but it's also about trying to understand the feelings of others.
Speaker: So it's kind of twofold for me.
Speaker: You know, it's about that.
Speaker: Yeah, it's about that.
Speaker: They're trying to understand actions and behaviors, but it's also trying to understand how people feel or why they might feel a certain way.
Speaker: And I think that, yeah, I think that people deserve to work in organizations that show up for them in that way.
Speaker: And I think empathy is a big foundation of them being able to do that.
Speaker: I couldn't agree more.
Speaker: I truly agree with you there and believe that everyone deserves to be cared for.
Speaker: And if you're listening to this and it's bringing up something for you and you're thinking my organization doesn't care for me, maybe that's a sign that it's not right because there are so many great organizations out there that are doing amazing things that we have choices now.
Speaker: And that's what's driving this whole quiet quitting resignation piece in that people are actually putting these types of behaviours at the forefront, ahead of work, ahead of those other things, because they're so important.
Speaker: I guess that leads to, do you really feel like this is changing quickly, this space and what people are looking for in terms of being cared for?
Speaker: Or do you think it's always been there?
Speaker: Or has COVID fast tracked that?
Speaker: Yeah, look, I think that in my observation, certainly the last couple of years has really encouraged people to re-evaluate the relationship they have with work.
Speaker: So I think that organizations that managed, you know, a really unmanageable event like COVID-19.
Speaker: really well in terms of the care and compassion that they showed to their employees are probably finding now that that loyalty is kind of built in because we showed up for you and you showed up for us and we were truly in that together.
Speaker: And so I think that, you know, unlike anything else that probably the majority of us have experienced, yeah, COVID really shone a spotlight on what
Speaker: all the different elements of our lives and really made us reevaluate what's important.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I think that, is it changing quickly?
Speaker: Look, I think people are voting with their feet, essentially.
Speaker: So I think lots of organizations are experiencing attrition and they are, and, you know, and that's okay.
Speaker: Like some attrition is okay.
Speaker: Some attrition is normal.
Speaker: It's natural.
Speaker: We absolutely want fluidity in our organizations, people coming in and out.
Speaker: But when people are making those decisions, it's
Speaker: Not because of what they are wanting and doing, but because of what you, the organization, are wanting and doing, then you've got a pretty big disconnect.
Speaker: And I think at that point in time, it's really useful to listen to your people, to use your data to help you understand things.
Speaker: the trends in those behaviors, because I think that, yeah, organizations that aren't listening at the moment, I think are really at risk of losing people to organizations who do listen and who do make choices based on the information and the feelings and the perspectives and the experiences of their people.
Speaker: Yeah, well said.
Speaker: So for those that are listening that, you know, this might be bringing up something for them and they're wanting to be more empathetic,
Speaker: what's your piece of advice?
Speaker: Like, where do you start?
Speaker: How can you be more empathetic?
Speaker: That's a really great question.
Speaker: I think the first thing you have to do, whether you are naturally empathetic or are not naturally empathetic, is be intentional.
Speaker: So I really believe that they have to go hand in hand.
Speaker: How you demonstrate empathy and how you make empathy-based decisions and take actions from that perspective is all going to require intentionality.
Speaker: So I think that it could be as simple as...
Speaker: As challenging your own assumptions.
Speaker: It could be as simple as assuming, not assuming rather that you know what a person wants or needs or feels just because that's maybe how you want, what you want or need or feel.
Speaker: So it could be as simple as asking those questions, trying to uncover, you know, using questions like what are you experiencing or how are you feeling?
Speaker: They're a great place to start in terms of generating understanding and trust.
Speaker: I also think that, you know, you can build in some really, some moments of empathy into your workflows, into your decision-making processes.
Speaker: Often, you know, using things like personas when you're kind of designing work that works, you know, when you're kind of considering, you know, who is the audience for this piece of work and spending some time creating a variety of personas.
Speaker: Because I think often if we do that, then we can, you know,
Speaker: ourselves in the perspective or in the shoes of another person whilst we're trying to design and work that will work for lots of people.
Speaker: The only caveat I really have around that is just being careful not to make too many assumptions.
Speaker: So use those, take a bit of a data or a bit of an evidence-based approach to designing those personas and be ready to be challenged when that work hits the real world because
Speaker: Not everybody fits into those kind of personas.
Speaker: So I think, yeah, being intentional, asking the right questions, actually listening to what people are telling you, not listening to the bits that validate what you're doing, but also listening to the bits that challenge what you're doing.
Speaker: And then taking really intentional steps around the way you design work to make sure that, and in those personas, and I do this often in my work, I might have, you know, that kind of, you know, thinking about all the different people and their experience, but I absolutely always ask, I ask it to my clients all the time, is how do we think people will feel about that?
Speaker: So how do we think people might feel about that decision?
Speaker: Like, how do we think people might feel about, you know, that action?
Speaker: And so I think just popping that little question in there is a way of, yeah, it's a way of not only considering empathy from a behavioral perspective, but at a cognitive perspective, but also from a feeling perspective as well.
Speaker: So yeah, asking the right questions, listening to the answers and being really intentional.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think is the best way to practice empathy, whether you have it innately or it's something you want to work on and build.
Speaker: Yeah, there's some great, great advice there.
Speaker: And I think, you know, credit to you for the incredible work you do with not only us at Circle In, but all of your customers.
Speaker: And there's so much that's come up today, you know, empathy is about understanding, connection, listening.
Speaker: I love that, you know, you've really honed in on, you know, that being intentional aspect, you know,
Speaker: And at the end of the day, we all deserve to be cared for.
Speaker: And I absolutely love that.
Speaker: And I think, you know, it's a beautiful note to end on and for everyone to really reflect on, you know, how are they being cared for?
Speaker: How is their manager showing up for them?
Speaker: Or if you're a manager listening to this, how are you showing up for your team?
Speaker: And, you know, asking that question about how people feel.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: It's been an incredible chat.
Speaker: Loved it.
Speaker: I always love your practical advice.
Speaker: And, you know, we always end the podcast with someone that you follow on LinkedIn that you believe is a true leader.
Speaker: And I personally love this question because I'm following some amazing people now that are helping coach me.
Speaker: So who would you recommend myself and others listening follow on LinkedIn?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker: And it really kind of made me evaluate like the, who am I following on LinkedIn?
Speaker: And like, are they making me more empathetic?
Speaker: Like, you know, is the media, the content that I'm consuming, making me a more actionable, empathetic kind of person?
Speaker: Look, I am going to be a bit cheeky.
Speaker: And because I think that one of the most empathetic leaders that I know of just also happens to be another circle in experts.
Speaker: So apologies in advance if this is keeping it in your
Speaker: in your already in your already kind of developed circle.
Speaker: But for me, I think Gemma Saunders is an incredibly empathetic person.
Speaker: And Jodi, I know that you would agree with me on that because obviously as another circle and expert, you know, you've done lots of work with Gem over the years, but for those who don't know Gem or her work, like I think that she is an incredible D and I strategist.
Speaker: And one of the most amazing things about her practice is the,
Speaker: how she goes out of her way to understand the feelings and experience of others, because her belief is really family that people shouldn't have to edit themselves.
Speaker: And the only way that you can be in an environment where you don't have to edit yourself is if the organization and the leader that you work for is really empathetic and creates a space for you to show up exactly as you are.
Speaker: even if you are and because you are different to them and really celebrate the richness that that can bring to an organization.
Speaker: So, yeah, I think I'd have to say Jem.
Speaker: I think Jem is one of the most inspiring, empathetic leaders that I follow on LinkedIn.
Speaker: Do you know what I love?
Speaker: I think most people probably feel like they need to choose some big global, you know, with 200,000 followers.
Speaker: But in fact, you know, there are so many great people we can learn from.
Speaker: And Jem is a great example.
Speaker: I love following Jem.
Speaker: For those that don't follow her, we'll pop her in the notes, jump online.
Speaker: I think she was voted or named one of the top 10 most influential LinkedIn followers.
Speaker: you know, in her community.
Speaker: And she is fantastic.
Speaker: She has some great advice.
Speaker: So thank you for calling her out.
Speaker: And I couldn't agree more.
Speaker: And I loved having you on as always, Bev.
Speaker: Thank you for everything you do, for the insight you've provided today and for the work that you do with our incredible customers in the Circle and team.
Speaker: So thanks, Bev.
Speaker: Thanks, Jade.
Speaker: It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker: Like I said, I could talk about empathy all day.
Speaker: So thanks for creating a little bit of space to get me thinking in a little bit more depth about what it is and why it's so important.
