Transcript
Speaker: Hey there, I'm Jodie and you're listening to the Empathy Talks podcast brought to you by Circle In.
Speaker: If you care about caring, then this podcast is for you.
Speaker: We're talking to well-known CEOs and executives to find out what empathetic leadership really looks like, what it means to them and how they're creating an empathetic culture.
Speaker: We'll unpack why empathy is a critical leadership skill and why having it in life and in business is more important than ever.
Speaker: So let's get into it and unearth why empathy is so much more than a buzzword.
Speaker: Circlant acknowledges the traditional owners and custodians of the land in which we're recording this podcast, the Wadawurrung people, and we pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
Speaker: Welcome to Empathy Talks.
Speaker: Today we are joined by the fabulous Hannah Spilver, who is the co-founder of Lovely, an incredible disruptive flower and gift delivery service business that has taken Australia by storm.
Speaker: They sold the business last year and I'm really looking forward to diving into what empathy means to Hannah and, you know, how it's evolved for her over her leadership journey in the 10 years that she was co-founder of Lovely.
Speaker: Hannah is also the Telstra Business Women's Award winner back in 2020.
Speaker: She was founder of the year in 2021.
Speaker: And last year, she was named the top 50 people in e-commerce.
Speaker: So with that, I'd love to welcome Hannah and let's dive in and find out what empathy means to her.
Speaker: Hannah, it is great to have you here today and I'd love to kick off with hearing a little bit about your incredible journey, obviously with the team at Lovely, but importantly, you know, the role of empathy and what it means to you and the role it's played throughout your leadership journey.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Thanks, Jodie, for the introduction.
Speaker: So my last decade really has been spent, I guess, from a professional perspective in building Lovely, a
Speaker: DTC flower and gift delivery business.
Speaker: And I think one thing that stands out for me is probably being a little bit unique about Lovely and what we were trying to do was I sort of look back and realize that empathy as a notion and compassion and love and connection really was actually the sort of starting point for why we built the business.
Speaker: So I
Speaker: the sort of bigger idea behind Lovely other than, you know, the flowers and gifts themselves was really about building a business that would connect loved ones when they couldn't be together and share a bit of joy and love in the world.
Speaker: So although we probably didn't acknowledge it at the time, with the advantage of hindsight, you know, I can kind of look back and go, God, empathy was actually
Speaker: where the sort of core and the DNA of this business grew from.
Speaker: And I think over the years that manifested itself in lots of different ways.
Speaker: So we never wanted to be a business that left culture to chance.
Speaker: We sort of didn't want to create an accidental culture.
Speaker: And so one of the things that Verity and I did very, very early on, certainly probably in the first 12 months of the business, was sit down with the team and crowdsource
Speaker: a whole bunch of values that we were going to really use to help define the culture of the workplace that we wanted to create.
Speaker: And those values, there were five of them.
Speaker: They were make someone's day, so that was our purpose.
Speaker: There was one team, one dream.
Speaker: It was work hungry, hustle hard, be a goodie, and own your impact.
Speaker: And I think particularly the value be a goodie came from this place of...
Speaker: wanting to create a, not just a business, but wanting to create a workplace where empathy and respect, kindness were just core to how you dealt with each other, with suppliers.
Speaker: And I think for me, that sort of idea of being a goodie, I remember it as far back as, you know, being a kid, like four or five years old, sat around the kitchen table and
Speaker: hearing my parents refer to somebody as a good egg and kind of growing up with this idea of what it meant to sort of be a good egg or be a goodie in life.
Speaker: And then, you know, fast forward all those years, here we were creating a company culture around, you know, that very sort of, um,
Speaker: mentality.
Speaker: So empathy has played a big, big part in growing Lovely.
Speaker: I think it played a big part for both me and my business partner of like, you know, the kind of leaders we wanted to be.
Speaker: But I'd honestly say I feel like I've had a very checkered relationship with empathy over my leadership journey.
Speaker: particularly because I think at times I have been so, probably at times I've been so driven and determined, hell-bent in fact, to achieve certain outcomes or certain professional goals that at times now I look back and reflect and go, gee, I was probably so determined to achieve that thing.
Speaker: Maybe at times it was at the expense of having empathy, not just for those around me, but for myself.
Speaker: And I think I've learned a lot about myself, particularly over the last couple of years with Exiting Lovely and through that experience.
Speaker: And really, I think, realized for the first time in my life that
Speaker: I definitely haven't grown up with enough empathy for myself.
Speaker: I think the standards that I've set for myself over the years and then how hard I've worked to try and achieve those standards, I've been pretty hard on myself.
Speaker: And then I think, you know, probably the ripple effect of that is that others will have felt that too.
Speaker: You know, I've probably held other people around me at times up to that level
Speaker: same set of standards.
Speaker: And I, yeah, reflecting on that, I worry that maybe there are times where I could have shown more empathy and didn't.
Speaker: And thank you for sharing and thank you for being so open.
Speaker: I think we can all relate to, you know, at times not showing enough empathy.
Speaker: And I love that, you know, you took us back to your childhood and being a goodie and clearly it's been part of who you are from an early age.
Speaker: But you're right, sometimes, you know,
Speaker: an outcome or that performance edge gets in the way of empathy.
Speaker: And I'd love, you know, is there a time that you can share, you know, or a situation that you can remember to bring that to life of, of perhaps that when you didn't show enough empathy?
Speaker: I can think, so we've just had Mother's Day yesterday, which was one of, which is in the world of gifting and flowers, there's two sort of grand finals of the year, if you like.
Speaker: It's Valentine's Day and Mother's Day, and Mother's Day is usually the ultimate in terms of sales.
Speaker: And so every year for pretty much the last decade, as a business, we have these two big events to deliver, and they're quite close together in time.
Speaker: So by the time Mother's Day rolls around,
Speaker: you know, the team are exhausted, you're gearing up for your sort of grand final, you know, you've got to get thousands of flowers and gifts, you know, out of the door over a probably 48 hour period.
Speaker: And I look back and I think there was so many times around those key occasions where there was so much pressure on myself and my business partner, there was so much pressure on the business and the team to deliver.
Speaker: And ultimately that pressure was coming from, from
Speaker: myself and Vez in terms of what we were trying to achieve and how much we wanted to grow and how much we wanted to sort of stretch ourselves and the business.
Speaker: But I remember looking back in the early days around those sort of Valentine's and Mother's Day and, you know, we would literally be picking and packing boxes and wrapping flowers into the wee hours of the morning.
Speaker: You're talking like, you know, 1am, 2am, the night before a big event.
Speaker: And there were times when I felt so frustrated and
Speaker: that the team just didn't want to keep going.
Speaker: I felt so frustrated and I'm humiliated to admit this quite frankly, but I remembered this sense of disappointment when people were tired and were going home at midnight or 1am and thinking, come on guys, this is our grand final.
Speaker: What's wrong with you?
Speaker: Where's the determination?
Speaker: Where's the conviction?
Speaker: And it's so wrong on so many levels because one, you know, if you're not a founder, you're not going to, you can't expect people always to have that same level of, you know, I'm going to be here until my knuckles bleed.
Speaker: I'm literally going to drag myself bleeding and battered across the finish line.
Speaker: And secondly, you know, sometimes even as a founder, like, should you expect that of yourself?
Speaker: And I did expect it of me.
Speaker: And I look back and I expected it of the team.
Speaker: And there were times when I felt disappointed.
Speaker: And actually, you know, what I should have had was complete empathy for the fact that they were exhausted, burnt out and deserved not to be there in the office.
Speaker: But yeah, I guess that's a, you know, it's a, it's a huge learning to reflect on.
Speaker: And I think,
Speaker: you know, in latter years of Lovely, we got to a much more healthy balance of how to run the business so that the team felt energized and so that, you know, we could still cross that finish line together, but not at the expense of culture and health and not for a lack of empathy.
Speaker: But it's a really hard learning curve.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: And again, I know I've already said this, but I think a lot of people will be listening and think we've all done that where, you know, at the expense of performance or whatever it may be, we've pushed people too hard and haven't shown enough empathy.
Speaker: And I think that's exactly why
Speaker: you know, we do what we do because we want to remind people.
Speaker: Often people just need to be reminded of those basic things because we're so busy with everything.
Speaker: You know, someone said to us recently, saying thank you is the biggest gift you can give employees.
Speaker: You know, taking the time to say thank you and truly listen and
Speaker: you know, I'm interested, do you feel like empathy was a skill you were continuously building and you and Verity were having to invest in or was it something that just continued to come naturally?
Speaker: No, I think it's something, well, I think it's something that is inherent.
Speaker: It's something that's inherent in me and as much as I think, you know, particularly in my
Speaker: personal life, I have a huge amount of compassion and I value kindness hugely and I value loyalty hugely and connection and vulnerability.
Speaker: So I think it's inherent in who I am and it's inherent in who Verity is.
Speaker: But I do think I can only speak for myself here and not on behalf of Vez, but for me, for sure, it's something that I had to remind myself
Speaker: in a professional capacity to keep coming back to when times got really busy and when business got really hard.
Speaker: So absolutely, it's a work in progress.
Speaker: It's something that I've had to keep coming back to and learn and invest in.
Speaker: And I still do because I care about it.
Speaker: I care about it a lot, you know, being an empathetic leader, being somebody who, you know,
Speaker: can also be a vulnerable leader.
Speaker: And again, I think that's something that's come late to me in my leadership journey, the ability to truly be vulnerable.
Speaker: I think I've always been a person who's, you know, I've been through lots and lots of struggles in my life, like everybody has, but I don't think I've been very good at letting people in and communicating with people, particularly in a work environment where
Speaker: perhaps what I was struggling with or how hard I was finding things or how hard I had to work at things to do well at them.
Speaker: And I think the risk sometimes with that is people think that certain things come naturally to you when in actual fact,
Speaker: they absolutely don't.
Speaker: You're just working your little socks off behind the scenes to, you know, over prepare and you invest so much of your energy and time constantly in trying to be the best you can be.
Speaker: But if you don't share with people how, you know, how much of a struggle that is sometimes, they don't sort of truly appreciate what it is you're trying to overcome.
Speaker: And I think,
Speaker: It took me a long time to understand the importance of being vulnerable in that way and letting people in.
Speaker: And through my own vulnerability, allowing people to feel more comfortable with being vulnerable themselves and really creating that true connection between yourself and your team.
Speaker: And certainly last year for me was a big eye opener in terms of the power of
Speaker: Being vulnerable, I went through a huge mental health crisis after exiting the business.
Speaker: I suffered from terrible anxiety and panic attacks and had a really, really difficult time getting on top of it.
Speaker: And I'm now so grateful that I felt comfortable and safe enough with my team,
Speaker: to let them know what I was truly going through.
Speaker: And I think the empathy that I had from them and the strength of our connections and relationships now because of going through that, it's just been so humbling.
Speaker: And then in return, I think has helped me have an even deeper level of empathy for other people who might be going through similar things.
Speaker: And I think, you know, you've just summarised so beautifully why we do what we do and the importance of creating those safe environments.
Speaker: You know, everyone wants to work for a caring workplace.
Speaker: And everything you've just told us then about showing empathy, being vulnerable, creating that safe environment where your employees know what you're going through and they feel that sense of trust and so forth.
Speaker: It just really demonstrates, you know, the power of creating that caring environment.
Speaker: And the reality is employees now want to work, you know, for places that genuinely care about them, both inside and outside of work.
Speaker: So I think, you know, credit to you.
Speaker: Thank you again for sharing.
Speaker: And, yeah, it's absolutely true demonstration of the power of empathy.
Speaker: And when you get to that great place, you know, the impact it can have on your people.
Speaker: I'm interested, Hannah, is there someone that really sticks out to you or stands out to you as an incredible leader in showing empathy?
Speaker: Or has there been an experience through your career that, you know, has stayed with you for a while?
Speaker: I feel so lucky to have in my career, I think, experienced such empathetic leaders and
Speaker: I feel, so my business partner, Verity, is a, you know, hugely empathetic person.
Speaker: Really, you know, one of, I think one of her greatest strengths is her ability to manage people.
Speaker: She's great at connecting with people and is really driven by understanding what drives individuals, what they care about.
Speaker: And I think I learned a lot from Vez over the sort of decade or so we've worked together and
Speaker: in terms of, you know, how to do that and the power of that.
Speaker: My husband, who I met at work, Conrad, he built a big digital agency in Australia.
Speaker: And, you know, over the years, I've heard people refer to him time and time again as sort of a man of the people.
Speaker: And I think one of the things that he was just brilliant at in terms of building a
Speaker: Visual Jazz was just connecting with the people and what drives them and never losing touch with the people that work for him, no matter how big the business got, never losing touch with them or the work or what drove them.
Speaker: And I just feel like, yeah, I've been very lucky with the types of leaders that I've been surrounded with throughout my whole career.
Speaker: in terms of their focus on people and culture.
Speaker: And I hope I've maybe picked up a little bit of that along the way, even if at times I've maybe forgotten to demonstrate it.
Speaker: I think you absolutely have.
Speaker: And yeah, I've loved everything you've had to say.
Speaker: I'd love to hear from you.
Speaker: What are your tips for someone that's listening that perhaps wants to show a bit more empathy or, you know, have you got any practical tips or things that have worked for you in your journey?
Speaker: Well, I think the first thing is if you're thinking about it and you're worrying about it, then that's the first big step in the right direction.
Speaker: I think if you're worrying about being, you know, not empathetic enough or not having enough empathy, then acknowledging that is, you know, you've already, you're already halfway there probably.
Speaker: I think...
Speaker: Definitely we touched on being vulnerable.
Speaker: So I think your own ability to be vulnerable and sort of let people in I think has definitely helped me.
Speaker: Another thing I think I've learned over the years is sometimes just slowing down to really be able to take notice of what's happening around you and being able to tune in and use your intuition properly.
Speaker: to tap into, you know, how people might be feeling or things they might be struggling with.
Speaker: But to be able to do that, you actually need to slow down.
Speaker: And, you know, listening is such a big part of having empathy for people and understanding what people are going through.
Speaker: But I think a trap you can fall into, and I've fallen into it many times, which is how I know this, is a trap you can fall into is to try and fix things.
Speaker: And I think I'm a problem solver by nature.
Speaker: That's sort of who I am and it's kind of what I've built my career on.
Speaker: So it's really counterintuitive to listen to something that somebody's going through or struggling with and not want to try and jump in and go into kind of fix it mode.
Speaker: And I think sometimes that's not helpful.
Speaker: And so one of the things I've sort of learned the hard way is actually sometimes just listening is enough to
Speaker: And if somebody actually wants your help with a solution, they'll probably ask for it.
Speaker: Yeah, I'd say that's probably like just from my own learnings, my own, my own, my own failures and mistakes.
Speaker: I'd say that's probably what I've taken from them.
Speaker: Oh, I think that's, that's great.
Speaker: You know, I love all of those and particularly, you know, the slowing down.
Speaker: I think for me personally, that's something I need to do more of.
Speaker: And even as you were saying, a lot of those tips, I mean, we live and breathe this every day and I still got, you know, something out of what you just said.
Speaker: And that act of listening is so important and,
Speaker: Someone said to me the other day, you know, if you're writing your questions down while someone's talking, you know, sometimes I do that and I think I'm doing the right thing.
Speaker: I'm getting ready to speak.
Speaker: I'm not practicing active listening because I'm not 100% present.
Speaker: So it was a bit of an aha moment around that slowing down, being present.
Speaker: So I think everything you've just said resonates with me and I'm sure will resonate to everyone listening in.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: And my last question to you is who do you follow on LinkedIn that we should all jump on board?
Speaker: Is there someone that you believe is demonstrating empathy in the way they communicate, you know, and their brand?
Speaker: Oh, this is so tricky, Jodie.
Speaker: You know, I...
Speaker: I was actually, there was a post that you and Kate put up actually, which really resonated with me.
Speaker: And it was kind of highlighting not just the, it was a quip about the gender pay gap, but also comparing it to the sleep gap.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: The sleep gap and there was the, what was the other gap that you spoke about in the post?
Speaker: There was two of them, but it was just, it was so clever and I felt so, yeah,
Speaker: it was so insightful because I immediately felt understood as a sort of fellow, not just fellow female founder, but as a fellow female and a mom.
Speaker: And so I think you guys, I mean, it's inherent in what you do, but I think it comes through in everything that you and Kate do, not just in your business, but in the way that you post on LinkedIn and the way that you help people.
Speaker: Oh, well, thank you.
Speaker: That's very kind.
Speaker: And I think, you know, I love how you just said then you felt understood.
Speaker: And maybe that's a beautiful way for us to end our conversation and really think about empathy in that, you know, empathy is about understanding others and feeling like you're being heard and being listened to.
Speaker: So I think that's a really great way to finish what's been an incredible conversation.
Speaker: Thank you for being so open, showing your vulnerability of, you know, the journey that you've been through and passing on your experience.
Speaker: So thank you so much for being part of this conversation.
Speaker: Thank you, Jodie.
